I used to think Lebron fans were crazy for calling him GOAT

[JohnMax]

Now I see they were right all along. This man is the GOAT. He has everything but team success which was withheld from him by haters within NBA community who didn't want to see him surpass Jordan.

[Spurs m8]

Ahhh the bots out again

Nice gaslighting

[Johnny32]

9 finals in 10 years.

hurrr, team success.

[Cyrus334]

Now I see they were right all along. This man is the GOAT. He has everything but team success which was withheld from him by haters within NBA community who didn't want to see him surpass Jordan.

He withheld it himself with his own actions in the very same year. First by going to Miami, which gave KD the precedent to join the Warriors and beat Lebron's ass two straight years and lost out on at least two titles. Then in that very same year he colluded, he choked against an inferior team in the Finals and cost himself a championship AND a three peat since the Heat won the next two titles.

So that's three potential titles Lebron cost himself not because of "haters" but due to his own performance/actions.

And what do you mean he has everything but team success? Look at this:
https://i.ibb.co/31Qq153/FOBN183-Vc-AAXt57.jpg

He hasn't surpassed Jordan in any meaningful NBA accolades unless you count All NBA/All stars teams lol. It's just the stats he's beating him in and we all know how much of a stat padder he is.

[Spurs m8]

He withheld it himself with his own actions in the very same year. First by going to Miami, which gave KD the precedent to join the Warriors and beat Lebron's ass two straight years and lost out on at least two titles. Then in that very same year he colluded, he choked against an inferior team in the Finals and cost himself a championship AND a three peat since the Heat won the next two titles.

So that's three potential titles Lebron cost himself not because of "haters" but due to his own performance/actions.

And what do you mean he has everything but team success? Look at this:
https://i.ibb.co/31Qq153/FOBN183-Vc-AAXt57.jpg

He hasn't surpassed Jordan in any meaningful NBA accolades unless you count All NBA/All stars teams lol. It's just the stats he's beating him in and we all know how much of a stat padder he is.

Yep, all he has is some longevity stats from playing so long and stat padding

The dudes never had GOAT impact on the court...ever...hence all the blemishes in his career.

The league and his PR people tried to manufacture a GOAT narrative, but naturally, he couldn't live up to it

[Johnny32]

He withheld it himself with his own actions in the very same year. First by going to Miami, which gave KD the precedent to join the Warriors and beat Lebron's ass two straight years and lost out on at least two titles. Then in that very same year he colluded, he choked against an inferior team in the Finals and cost himself a championship AND a three peat since the Heat won the next two titles.

So that's three potential titles Lebron cost himself not because of "haters" but due to his own performance/actions.

And what do you mean he has everything but team success? Look at this:
https://i.ibb.co/31Qq153/FOBN183-Vc-AAXt57.jpg

He hasn't surpassed Jordan in any meaningful NBA accolades unless you count All NBA/All stars teams lol. It's just the stats he's beating him in and we all know how much of a stat padder he is.

Lebron didn't join the pistons or celtics because he couldn't beat them. nice desperate attempt to compare the two.

[Cyrus334]

Lebron didn't join the pistons or celtics because he couldn't beat them. nice desperate attempt to compare the two.

Except we're not discussing whose collusion was worse between KD or Lebron. We know KD's was worse obviously. They both colluded with stars in free agency to dominate the league; that's the point. KD knew he'd get flack for what he did but he saw Lebron get redemption even after he was public enemy number 1 in Miami since winning solves everything.

[1987_Lakers]

He withheld it himself with his own actions
https://i.ibb.co/31Qq153/FOBN183-Vc-AAXt57.jpg

He hasn't surpassed Jordan in any meaningful NBA accolades unless you count All NBA/All stars teams lol. It's just the stats he's beating him in and we all know how much of a stat padder he is.

If we go by this metric then Russell is the clear GOAT. Same amount of MVPs but also 5 more rings than MJ.

[Nilocon165]

I’ve seen enough, Lebron is the GOAT

[Cyrus334]

If we go by this metric then Russell is the clear GOAT. Same amount of MVPs but also 5 more rings than MJ.
I mean, Russel's also a GOAT candidate to alot of old heads too. He has the most rings out of anyone. Only reason he's not a more popular GOAT choice is cuz this generation has no idea who he is just like Kareem.

[Hey Yo]

Except we're not discussing whose collusion was worse between KD or Lebron. We know KD's was worse obviously. They both colluded with stars in free agency to dominate the league; that's the point. KD knew he'd get flack for what he did but he saw Lebron get redemption even after he was public enemy number 1 in Miami since winning solves everything.

KD had other All-NBA teammates and runner up for DPOY in OKC.

James' first 7yrs, he never played with an All-NBA teammate and Varejao was his only teammate to make All- defensive 2nd team for one season.

Huge difference in their situations.

[3ba11]

Now I see they were right all along. This man is the GOAT. He has everything but team success which was withheld from him by haters within NBA community who didn't want to see him surpass Jordan.


Lebron robbed KD of an organic title in 2012 with the Heat super-team collusion

Then Lebron's preseason favorite in 15' and 16' ruined Curry's organic back-to-back.

So everyone has it backwards - KD didn't steal rings from Lebron - Lebron was the original super-team colluder that stole rings from everyone

People have simply been bamboozled by Klutch Sports - the biggest frauds are in plain view and no one notices

[Johnny32]

Except we're not discussing whose collusion was worse between KD or Lebron. We know KD's was worse obviously. They both colluded with stars in free agency to dominate the league; that's the point. KD knew he'd get flack for what he did but he saw Lebron get redemption even after he was public enemy number 1 in Miami since winning solves everything.



You're an idiot. Winning depends on many things including a fat white man in a front office getting the right pieces. Lebron and other stars aren't waiting and hoping . They're doing it themselves. Which makes this era by far the most competitive. His only mistake was waiting 7 years. Should have did it after his rookie contract.

[3ba11]

You're an idiot. Winning depends on many things including a fat white man in a front office getting the right pieces. Lebron and other stars aren't waiting and hoping . They're doing it themselves. Which makes this era by far the most competitive. His only mistake was waiting 7 years. Should have did it after his rookie contract.


Lebron was the original super-team colluder that stole rings from KD in 2012 and Curry in 2016

Lebron's collusions gave him Year 1 favorites in 11' and 15, and also the preseason favorite from 11-16' (6 straight years)..

Year 1 favorites are the easiest path possible, and that's why Lebron's path was unfair.. He's a talent-based winner (all-star team strategy) and never learned great brand of ball to win like everyone else that won organically

[8Ball]

You're an idiot. Winning depends on many things including a fat white man in a front office getting the right pieces. Lebron and other stars aren't waiting and hoping . They're doing it themselves. Which makes this era by far the most competitive. His only mistake was waiting 7 years. Should have did it after his rookie contract.

This is true.

The Big 3 celtics did it first. Brought together a monster big 3.

Jordan's legacy was in the hands of Jerry Krause... imagine a fat old man not drafting Pippen.

[3ba11]

The Big 3 celtics did it first. Brought together a monster big 3.





What's the biggest reason that Lebron lost the 10' ECSF as a massive favorite?



A) Lebron averaged 33 on 55% for the first 3 games (2-1 lead) but then 21 on 34% for the last 3 (all losses)

B) another reason


The Celtics were a bummy, 50-win underdog in 2010 - KG was a 14/7 shell after his injury in 2009 and basically equal to Varejao or Zydrunas or Shaq.. And Ray Allen was similar to Mo at that time.

Rondo actually led that team in the series and dominated the so-called #2 player of all-time down the stretch (lol)




This is true.

The Big 3 celtics did it first. Brought together a monster big 3.

Jordan's legacy was in the hands of Jerry Krause... imagine a fat old man not drafting Pippen.


Post-injury Garnett was a 14/7 role player and those Celtics were a bad underdog team - the Cavs were supposed to easily smash them as a massive favorite but Lebron averaged 21 on 34% for the last 3 games - that's literally the only reason they lost that series, otherwise they were headed towards an easy expected win.

After that massive upset, Klutch Sports put out the narrative that the Celtics were somehow a super-team in 2010 when they were infact an underdog with a bunch of old guys that only win because Lebron choked.

And this is the standard - Klutch weaponizes failing to meet expectation by crying "comp" - that's the excuse for Lebron's preseason favorites falling to Finals underdog or loser from 11-16' (6 straight years)

[Cyrus334]

You're an idiot. Winning depends on many things including a fat white man in a front office getting the right pieces. Lebron and other stars aren't waiting and hoping . They're doing it themselves. Which makes this era by far the most competitive. His only mistake was waiting 7 years. Should have did it after his rookie contract.

Your the only idiot here. You can make excuses or sugar coat what Lebron did all you want, it's a fact he colluded with other stars to take over the league. Same with KD. You also seem to be under some misunderstanding that I hate Lebron for that but that's not true. He completely changed the landscape of the NBA and my stance on that has always been, if your going to collude, you better win as many titles as you can doing so.

[SouBeachTalents]

What's the biggest reason that Lebron lost the 10' ECSF as a massive favorite?



A) Lebron averaged 33 on 55% for the first 3 games (2-1 lead) but then 21 on 34% for the last 3 (all losses)

B) another reason


The Celtics were a bummy, 50-win underdog in 2010 - KG was a 14/7 shell after his injury in 2009 and basically equal to Varejao or Zydrunas or Shaq.. And Ray Allen was similar to Mo at that time.

Rondo actually led that team in the series and dominated the so-called #2 player of all-time down the stretch (lol)






Post-injury Garnett was a 14/7 role player and those Celtics were a bad underdog team - the Cavs were supposed to easily smash them as a massive favorite but Lebron averaged 21 on 34% for the last 3 games - that's literally the only reason they lost that series, otherwise they were headed towards an easy expected win.

After that massive upset, Klutch Sports put out the narrative that the Celtics were somehow a super-team in 2010 when they were infact an underdog with a bunch of old guys that only win because Lebron choked.

And this is the standard - Klutch weaponizes failing to meet expectation by crying "comp" - that's the excuse for Lebron's preseason favorites falling to Finals underdog or loser from 11-16' (6 straight years)
Yikes, and this was supposedly the best team Kobe ever beat AND the one he shot a horrific 6/24 against in the biggest game of his life? Not impressed.

[FKAri]

OP made the thread and slipped out the back door while all the usual dogs have gathered to bark at each other. :oldlol:

[Baller789]

This is true.

The Big 3 celtics did it first. Brought together a monster big 3.

Jordan's legacy was in the hands of Jerry Krause... imagine a fat old man not drafting Pippen.

So was Bill Russells legacy on the hands of Red Auerbach all along?

[kawhileonard2]

If we go by this metric then Russell is the clear GOAT. Same amount of MVPs but also 5 more rings than MJ.

But less Finals mvp's.

MJ = 6 Titles, 6 finals MVP's, 5 League MVP's = 17 Points total
Russell = 11 Titles, 0 finals MVP's, 5 League MVP's = 16 Points Total
Kareem = 6 Titles, 2 finals MVP's, 6 League MVP's = 14 Points Total
Lebron = 4 Titles, 4 finals MVP's, 4 League MVP's = 12 Points Total
Magic = 5 Titles, 3 finals MVP's, 3 League MVP's = 11 Points Total
Duncan = 4 Titles, 3 finals MVP's, 2 League MVP's = 9 Points Total
Kobe = 5 Titles, 2 finals MVP's, 1 League MVP's = 8 Points Total
Shaq = 4 Titles, 3 finals MVP's, 1 League MVP's = 8 Points Total
Bird = 3 Titles, 2 finals MVP's, 3 League MVP's = 8 Points Total
Wilt = 2 Titles, 1 finals MVP's, 4 League MVP's = 7 Points Total
Hakeem = 2 Titles, 2 finals MVP's, 1 League MVP's = 5 Points Total
Moses Malone = 1 Titles, 1 finals MVP's, 3 League MVP's = 5 Points Total
Kawhi = 2 Titles, 2 finals MVP's = 4 Points Total

[Baller789]

Your the only idiot here. You can make excuses or sugar coat what Lebron did all you want, it's a fact he colluded with other stars to take over the league. Same with KD. You also seem to be under some misunderstanding that I hate Lebron for that but that's not true. He completely changed the landscape of the NBA and my stance on that has always been, if your going to collude, you better win as many titles as you can doing so.

I hear ya. It's just these Brontards auto label you as a Lebron hater and a Jordan/Kobe stan because they're testosterone enraged basement dwellers.

They refuse to admit that despite Lebron's collusions, he underachieved. As seen with his finals records.

[SouBeachTalents]

But less Finals mvp's.

MJ = 6 Titles, 6 finals MVP's, 5 League MVP's = 17 Points total
Russell = 11 Titles, 0 finals MVP's, 5 League MVP's = 16 Points Total
Kareem = 6 Titles, 2 finals MVP's, 6 League MVP's = 14 Points Total
Lebron = 4 Titles, 4 finals MVP's, 4 League MVP's = 12 Points Total
Magic = 5 Titles, 3 finals MVP's, 3 League MVP's = 11 Points Total
Duncan = 4 Titles, 3 finals MVP's, 2 League MVP's = 9 Points Total
Kobe = 5 Titles, 2 finals MVP's, 1 League MVP's = 8 Points Total
Shaq = 4 Titles, 3 finals MVP's, 1 League MVP's = 8 Points Total
Bird = 3 Titles, 2 finals MVP's, 3 League MVP's = 8 Points Total
Wilt = 2 Titles, 1 finals MVP's, 4 League MVP's = 7 Points Total
Hakeem = 2 Titles, 2 finals MVP's, 1 League MVP's = 5 Points Total
Moses Malone = 1 Titles, 1 finals MVP's, 3 League MVP's = 5 Points Total
Kawhi = 2 Titles, 2 finals MVP's = 4 Points Total
Crazy how Russell didn't win FMVP a single time out of ELEVEN titles. Seems really overrated to me.

[Full Court]

If we go by this metric then Russell is the clear GOAT. Same amount of MVPs but also 5 more rings than MJ.

Russell's #2. But a reasonable case can be made for him being GOAT.

[Full Court]

Now I see they were right all along. This man is the GOAT. He has everything but team success which was withheld from him by haters within NBA community who didn't want to see him surpass Jordan.

So......let me see if I get this right. Bronie haters withheld team success from him? How, pray tell, does one withhold team success from Princess Bronie?

Just face the truth and accept it. The man just can't stop losing. Empty stats don't translate to wins. This dude's spent more time on super teams than anyone else in the history of the sport, and he still only managed to squeak out 4/10, -86.

[3ba11]

Yikes, and this was supposedly the best team Kobe ever beat AND the one he shot a horrific 6/24 against in the biggest game of his life? Not impressed.


It's true - Kobe struggled to beat a bummy 50-win team of fossils in 2010.

But he was facing maximum defensive attention, which Lebron never overcame in the Finals (never carried scoring load).. So his ring was much tougher than any of Lebron's for that reason..

Ultimately, Klutch weaponizes failing to meet expectation by crying "comp" - that's the excuse for Lebron's preseason favorites falling to Finals underdog or loser from 11-16' (6 straight years)

[ImKobe]

The difference between MJ & Bran is a top 10-15 all-time career

2 rings
2 FMVP
1 MVP
1 DPOY
9 scoring titles

You think some career totals mean that Bran is the "GOAT"? We're talking multiple championships, undefeated Finals record, best scorer in the league every year in his prime type of shit, and MJ was a better defensive player as well.

[Baller789]

The difference between MJ & Bran is a top 10-15 all-time career

2 rings
2 FMVP
1 MVP
1 DPOY
9 scoring titles

You think some career totals mean that Bran is the "GOAT"? We're talking multiple championships, undefeated Finals record, best scorer in the league every year in his prime type of shit, and MJ was a better defensive player as well.

All while playing less NBA seasons.

The only likely category Lebron is gonna get closer right now is scoring titles, even then he would still have to win 8 more just to tie.

[Spurs m8]

So......let me see if I get this right. Bronie haters withheld team success from him? How, pray tell, does one withhold team success from Princess Bronie?

Just face the truth and accept it. The man just can't stop losing. Empty stats don't translate to wins. This dude's spent more time on super teams than anyone else in the history of the sport, and he still only managed to squeak out 4/10, -86.

Honestly, i think JohnMax is a bot.

Hes always been random with his posting, opinions always changing, team logo avatars changing...he had a GSW one for ages.

He also had the exact same account and avs on Spurstalk..and would post like a bot there too

[3ba11]

All while playing less NBA seasons.

The only likely category Lebron is gonna get closer right now is scoring titles, even then he would still have to win 8 more just to tie.


Even rookie Jordan never lost this much (he missed 64 games as a sophomore).

Jordan's scoring was simply more optimal and yielded better teams - he wasn't capable of losing this much with any cast at any age .. :confusedshrug:

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Even rookie Jordan never lost this much (he missed 64 games as a sophomore).

Jordan's scoring was simply more optimal and yielded better teams - he wasn't capable of losing this much with any cast at any age .. :confusedshrug:

The main reason Russell isn't considered #1 all-time is the 15.1 PPG & only 8 teams in the league. Greatest winner perhaps, but did lose in the finals.

GOAT is a combination of PER, winning chips, and career stats. 30 PPG (Mike) beats LBJ's 27 PPG or KAJ's 24 PPG). 2007 & 2011 hurt Lebron - any time he played far worse in a championship round than the regular season will do that. Having Jason Terry outscore you in a Finals doesn't exactly help. Your "big win" 2016 people forget he had a sidekick that had a 41 point game on 71% shooting. Mike never had such help.

So yeah, I'll take the dude that's 6-0 in the finals with 6 FMVPs, 5 league MVP's, 10x scoring titles, DPOY, 9x all-defensive teams, 2x dunk contest champ. 30 PPG career average that only went up during the playoffs with a career 50% clip on midrange & dunks. He did all this in 13.5 seasons too. MJ was the best player in the league from 1988-1998 and it wasn't even close. LBJ maybe was in 2012, but in the early part it was Kobe/Shaq/Duncan and later years KD could be argued the best in the league.
Lebron isn't in the top 20 of all time from a skill-set perspective. Hell CP3 is far more skilled with the basketball - a dude that has 0 rings.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Also consider thing - LBJ is trying his hardest to win the scoring title at age 37. So what? His team is 10 games below 500.

Mike won the scoring title @ 35, along with the chip, League MVP, Finals MVP, all-star MVP, all-nba 1st team & defense.

It's really hard to lead the league in scoring every year. The GOAT did that...and won.

[1987_Lakers]

The main reason Russell isn't considered #1 all-time is the 15.1 PPG & only 8 teams in the league. Greatest winner perhaps, but did lose in the finals.

GOAT is a combination of PER, winning chips, and career stats. 30 PPG (Mike) beats LBJ's 27 PPG or KAJ's 24 PPG). 2007 & 2011 hurt Lebron - any time he played far worse in a championship round than the regular season will do that. Having Jason Terry outscore you in a Finals doesn't exactly help. Your "big win" 2016 people forget he had a sidekick that had a 41 point game on 71% shooting. Mike never had such help.

So yeah, I'll take the dude that's 6-0 in the finals with 6 FMVPs, 5 league MVP's, 10x scoring titles, DPOY, 9x all-defensive teams, 2x dunk contest champ. 30 PPG career average that only went up during the playoffs with a career 50% clip on midrange & dunks. He did all this in 13.5 seasons too. MJ was the best player in the league from 1988-1998 and it wasn't even close. LBJ maybe was in 2012, but in the early part it was Kobe/Shaq/Duncan and later years KD could be argued the best in the league.
Lebron isn't in the top 20 of all time from a skill-set perspective. Hell CP3 is far more skilled with the basketball - a dude that has 0 rings.

Did you know Karl Towns Anthony has a hire PER than Kawhi, Hakeem, Curry, Kobe etc etc.?

[Spurs m8]

Also consider thing - LBJ is trying his hardest to win the scoring title at age 37. So what? His team is 10 games below 500.

Mike won the scoring title @ 35, along with the chip, League MVP, Finals MVP, all-star MVP, all-nba 1st team & defense.

It's really hard to lead the league in scoring every year. The GOAT did that...and won.

:applause::applause::applause::applause::applause:

[Baller789]

The main reason Russell isn't considered #1 all-time is the 15.1 PPG & only 8 teams in the league. Greatest winner perhaps, but did lose in the finals.

GOAT is a combination of PER, winning chips, and career stats. 30 PPG (Mike) beats LBJ's 27 PPG or KAJ's 24 PPG). 2007 & 2011 hurt Lebron - any time he played far worse in a championship round than the regular season will do that. Having Jason Terry outscore you in a Finals doesn't exactly help. Your "big win" 2016 people forget he had a sidekick that had a 41 point game on 71% shooting. Mike never had such help.

So yeah, I'll take the dude that's 6-0 in the finals with 6 FMVPs, 5 league MVP's, 10x scoring titles, DPOY, 9x all-defensive teams, 2x dunk contest champ. 30 PPG career average that only went up during the playoffs with a career 50% clip on midrange & dunks. He did all this in 13.5 seasons too. MJ was the best player in the league from 1988-1998 and it wasn't even close. LBJ maybe was in 2012, but in the early part it was Kobe/Shaq/Duncan and later years KD could be argued the best in the league.
Lebron isn't in the top 20 of all time from a skill-set perspective. Hell CP3 is far more skilled with the basketball - a dude that has 0 rings.

Whilst I don't necessarily agree 100% on this post, I would love to see a Bronie counter this without resorting to disrespecting the history of the game, players and ad hominems.

[Baller789]

Did you know Karl Towns Anthony has a hire PER than Kawhi, Hakeem, Curry, Kobe etc etc.?
Whats your point?

He already said a combination of.

[1987_Lakers]

Whats your point?

He already said a combination of.

PER can be a very flawed stat, it should never be used for anything.

[3ba11]

PER can be a very flawed stat, it should never be used for anything.


Jordan leads Lebron in all production rate stats, not just PER

PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48... And also plus-minus or raptor

(VORP is based on minutes so you have to use individual seasons and MJ has all the best VORP seasons)

[Baller789]

PER can be a very flawed stat, it should never be used for anything.

Flawed as it may, it still gives a general idea on the player's performance. That's why the poster said in combination with...

[Spurs m8]

Jordan leads Lebron in all production rate stats, not just PER

PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48... And also plus-minus or raptor

(VORP is based on minutes so you have to use individual seasons and MJ has all the best VORP seasons)

1987 copping the d1ck on the daily

[Johnny32]

Also consider thing - LBJ is trying his hardest to win the scoring title at age 37. So what? His team is 10 games below 500.

Mike won the scoring title @ 35, along with the chip, League MVP, Finals MVP, all-star MVP, all-nba 1st team & defense.

It's really hard to lead the league in scoring every year. The GOAT did that...and won.

The bulls won in an offensively challenged era. Most teams had two dinos on the court with little offensive skills. So yeah...it's easier to lead the lg in scoring and still win when only 3 players on the court can score. He isn't winning shit chucking 28 non 3pter fga per game in today's nba.

[3ba11]

The bulls won in an offensively challenged era. Most teams had two dinos on the court with little offensive skills. So yeah...it's easier to lead the lg in scoring and still win when only 3 players on the court can score. He isn't winning shit chucking 28 non 3pter fga per game in today's nba.


Jordan would chuck 28 fga but get 50 ppg in today's spaced-out, hands-off beginner format

Jordan averaged 37 without teammates and bigs shooting 30 threes to open up the lane - he'd have this spacing in today's game plus no one can touch him either.

Finally, Jordan always shot threes well whenever he took more than bailout volume like the 92' Finals (43% on 5 attempts) or 93' Playoffs (39% on 4 attempts) or the 90' and 93' regular season (38% on 3 attempts).. So his goat form would get in rhythm more often at today's 3-point offenses and higher volume.. He'd attempt anywhere from 5-10 threes a game today

[1987_Lakers]

Jordan leads Lebron in all production rate stats, not just PER

PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48... And also plus-minus or raptor

(VORP is based on minutes so you have to use individual seasons and MJ has all the best VORP seasons)

Did you know Chris Paul and Neil Johnston have a higher win shares 48 than Kareem, Magic, Bird, Durant, LeBron etc?

Did you know Chris Paul has a higher BPM than Larry Bird, Kareem, & Duncan etc?

Did you know John Stockton has a higher VORP than Kareem, Shaq, Bird, & Kobe?

Most of these advanced stats were made for nerds like you who never watch games and just look at stats all day.

[SouBeachTalents]

Jordan leads Lebron in all production rate stats, not just PER

PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48... And also plus-minus or raptor

(VORP is based on minutes so you have to use individual seasons and MJ has all the best VORP seasons)
LeBron leads virtually every other player in history besides Jordan in all those too.

[sdot_thadon]

Bron's a legit goat candidate no matter how much crying and slandering you guys do. In fact the point that some of you even have to work so hard and jump through so many hoops to downplay his accomplishments tells us everything we need to know. He's that big a deal.

One guy in here points to accolades as the reason without realizing Russell pretty much annihilates MJ in this regard. We're talking as many more Mvps over Mj as Mj has over Lebron. Nearly double the rings. If Fmvp existed during his career he'd have no less than 6. If dpoy existed we're looking at anywhere from 8 to 11 of them. And insane defensive numbers.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Did you know Karl Towns Anthony has a hire PER than Kawhi, Hakeem, Curry, Kobe etc etc.?

You do know what the word "combination" means right? KAT's number of chips? Career stats?

[1987_Lakers]

You do know what the word "combination" means right? KAT's number of chips? Career stats?

Funny how you just mentioned their ppg and ignored their assists and rebounds when you brought up "career stats". No bias at all there, lol.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

The bulls won in an offensively challenged era. Most teams had two dinos on the court with little offensive skills. So yeah...it's easier to lead the lg in scoring and still win when only 3 players on the court can score. He isn't winning shit chucking 28 non 3pter fga per game in today's nba.

Yet you gloss over the benefits of the current PRO-offensive league. Offensive rebound? Now you have to hit the rim again within 14 seconds, not the 24 that MJ played with. Handchecking? Not allowed. Hell 2004 handchecking went away, along with that time period the league going to a 7 game 1st round & players being allowed to come straight out of high school. Lebron has played consistently well, but even giving 2 extra "play-in" games benefits him, just like the other 4 changes (7 game 1st round benefiting a career total in playoff points).

[1987_Lakers]

Bron's a legit goat candidate no matter how much crying and slandering you guys do. In fact the point that some of you even have to work so hard and jump through so many hoops to downplay his accomplishments tells us everything we need to know. He's that big a deal.

One guy in here points to accolades as the reason without realizing Russell pretty much annihilates MJ in this regard. We're talking as many more Mvps over Mj as Mj has over Lebron. Nearly double the rings. If Fmvp existed during his career he'd have no less than 6. If dpoy existed we're looking at anywhere from 8 to 11 of them. And insane defensive numbers.

Very sound post. I guess it will come down to what a person value more, peak/prime vs longevity. I feel MJ had a better peak while LeBron obviously has him beat in longevity.

[3ba11]

Very sound post. I guess it will come down to what a person value more, peak/prime vs longevity. I feel MJ had a better peak while LeBron obviously has him beat in longevity.


Lebron isn't a goat candidate now because everyone has him at #2 - that's only going to decrease once KD, Kawhi, Giannis and others pile on more rings, while Lebron's age exposes his game more and more

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Funny how you just mentioned their ppg and ignored their assists and rebounds when you brought up "career stats". No bias at all there, lol.

I made the obvious case for Mike's #1 GOAT consensus. If you want to argue KAJ is the GOAT, I'd certainly listen. Absolutely the greatest college player of all time, but won a few chips as the 3rd/4th best player on the team, and did have 4 finals losses including the infamous "4-4-4" '83 sweep& got swept in 89. He just didn't do enough in the 70's other than put up big numbers.
I have KAJ as #2 by the way....maybe Wilt 3rd.

[1987_Lakers]

Lebron isn't a goat candidate now because everyone has him at #2 - that's only going to decrease once KD, Kawhi, Giannis and others pile on more rings, while Lebron's age exposes his game more and more

Are you sure about that?

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=2004777

[3ba11]

Are you sure about that?

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=2004777


That's a board of about 100 people.. Maybe 200

No mainstream media source has Lebron #1

Not a single one.. Literally everyone has MJ as goat by massive margins

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Bron's a legit goat candidate no matter how much crying and slandering you guys do. In fact the point that some of you even have to work so hard and jump through so many hoops to downplay his accomplishments tells us everything we need to know. He's that big a deal.

One guy in here points to accolades as the reason without realizing Russell pretty much annihilates MJ in this regard. We're talking as many more Mvps over Mj as Mj has over Lebron. Nearly double the rings. If Fmvp existed during his career he'd have no less than 6. If dpoy existed we're looking at anywhere from 8 to 11 of them. And insane defensive numbers.

Right. 8 teams in the league, the 61 Celtics had no less than 9 hall of fame players. 15.1 PPG just isn't enough for a career to be in my top 2. Russell was an amazing defensive specialist & rebounder, and a proven winner. Just falls short on the 3 factor combination I mentioned. That's my criteria. Hell Bob Horry has 3 more rings than Lebron and made big shots to secure wins (2002 Kings rigged game 6 series, game 4). But he's not on anyone's top 100 list.

[SouBeachTalents]

That's a board of about 100 people.. Maybe 200

No mainstream media source has Lebron #1

Not a single one.. Literally everyone has MJ as goat by massive margins
No mainstream media source has LeBron outside the 10. Or Kobe 2nd. Not a single one.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

You play to win the title, period.
6 rings with 0 losses in 13.5 seasons ALWAYS trumps 4 rings, 6 losses in 19. There's no getting around this.:lol

Too many shrinking violet moments for Lebron. He could have been the GOAT if he wasn't afraid of the late game. Clanked shit off the backboard in the closing minutes of game 6 2013 and or passed up the big shot (2018 Finals game 1) or hell his big loss in high school. If you get bored, go find footage of his junior year - has a history of shrinking in the big moments. You know this of course.

I have Lebron #6 all-time, and it fluctuates between 6 and 8th. Too much team hopping and losing 50% more than winning on the biggest stage.

[sdot_thadon]

Very sound post. I guess it will come down to what a person value more, peak/prime vs longevity. I feel MJ had a better peak while LeBron obviously has him beat in longevity.

I can't be mad at that, crazy thing is we act as if Lebrons peak isn't neck and neck with MJ's as well was the longevity landslide.....

[1987_Lakers]

Right. 8 teams in the league, the 61 Celtics had no less than 9 hall of fame players. 15.1 PPG just isn't enough for a career to be in my top 2. Russell was an amazing defensive specialist & rebounder, and a proven winner. Just falls short on the 3 factor combination I mentioned. That's my criteria. Hell Bob Horry has 3 more rings than Lebron and made big shots to secure wins (2002 Kings rigged game 6). But he's not on anyone's top 100 list.

To be fair, how many of those guys get in the HOF if they didn't play with Russell?

K.C. Jones is probably the worst player ever to make the hall, he was no better than say Michael Cooper.

Frank Ramsey never even made an all-star team and made it.

Tom Heinsohn has a career 40 fg%

Sam Jones, Cousy, & Havlicek are the only true legit Hall of fame players he played with.

And Russell won 6 chips without Cousy and 5 chips without Havlicek.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

No mainstream media source has LeBron outside the 10. Or Kobe 2nd. Not a single one.

Agreed. Kobe's still 12thbe. No shame in being the 12th greatest of all-time.

[3ba11]

No mainstream media source has LeBron outside the 10. Or Kobe 2nd. Not a single one.


There's many sources that have Lebron below #2

And the media just hates on Kobe because he was different and they're ordinary/boring

[Shaquille O'Neal]

To be fair, how many of those guys get in the HOF if they didn't play with Russell?

K.C. Jones is probably the worst player ever to make the hall.

Frank Ramsey never even made an all-star team and made it.

Tom Heinsohn has a career 40 fg%

Sam Jones, Cousy, & Havlicek are the only true legit Hall of fame players he played with.

And Russell won 6 chips without Cousy and 5 chips without Havlicek.

Great. You like 15.1 PPG, or you going to gloss over that as well? It exists, and cannot be changed. Just like 2007 and 2011, or 1983 for KAJ. Significant flaws in big moments or career stats that disqualify players. I don't care who anyone thinks the GOAT is quite frankly - we all know down deep no one was as good as Mike. I hated Mike in the late 90's as I got sick of him winning every damn year - I rooted for Utah.

[SouBeachTalents]

There's many sources that have Lebron below #2, so he's barely #2, let alone in the goat debate

And the media just hates on Kobe because he was different
Show me any media ranking that has LeBron below 2nd since he won his 4th title.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

There's many sources that have Lebron below #2

And the media just hates on Kobe because he was different and they're ordinary/boring

I'm 48. People hate on Kobe due to his ball-hogging, chucking. I started really not liking him when he waived off Malone's screen in the '98 all-star game. Just a cocky shithead riding Shaq's coattails in the finals for the first 3 chips. From 1999-2004 you could have replaced him with McGrady or any other flashy 2 guard and the Lakers championship wins would have been the same or maybe even won 2004 without all the chucking.
He was a poor man's copy of Jordan - imitated the way he walked, talked, etc. but just wasn't as good.

But with the game on the line I'll take Kobe's will over LeGed's psychological late game demons.

[3ba11]

Show me any media ranking that has LeBron below 2nd since he won his 4th title.


Kenny Smith has him #9

Lots of media guys have him below #2

But the larger point is that there's no goat debate - Lebron isn't #1 anywhere.. It's a fake debate that succeeded in getting him to #2 even though he never learned how to win (organic) and can't defeat maximum defensive attention (carry the scoring load)

[1987_Lakers]

Great. You like 15.1 PPG, or you going to gloss over that as well? It exists, and cannot be changed. Just like 2007 and 2011, or 1983 for KAJ. Significant flaws in big moments or career stats that disqualify players. I don't care who anyone thinks the GOAT is quite frankly - we all know down deep no one was as good as Mike. I hated Mike in the late 90's as I got sick of him winning every damn year - I rooted for Utah.

You undervalue what a dominant defensive player Russell was. His defensive impact was leagues higher than any other player in NBA history, by alot. His teams were so dominant defensively that they were playing '08 Celtics type of defense year in and year out and that was mostly because of Russell.

I won't go to into it, but I went into good detail about how dominant his defense was when we had our top 50 players ever rankings list months back.

[sdot_thadon]

Right. 8 teams in the league, the 61 Celtics had no less than 9 hall of fame players. 15.1 PPG just isn't enough for a career to be in my top 2. Russell was an amazing defensive specialist & rebounder, and a proven winner. Just falls short on the 3 factor combination I mentioned. That's my criteria. Hell Bob Horry has 3 more rings than Lebron and made big shots to secure wins (2002 Kings rigged game 6 series, game 4). But he's not on anyone's top 100 list.
That's just called not knowing, lol. Russell faced plenty of hall of famers and more often in a smaller league? The 15ppg is a function of the role his coach asked of him, it seemed to work pretty well. He could have definitely scored more and won less Ala Wilt. Also did he play with 9 legit hof caliber guys, or did he have teammates he put there with his dominance? Defensive specialist really downplays the rest of his game. He was a pretty good passer and absolute monster on the boards. Horry doesn't even belong in your post, do better. You guys should learn more about the 60s greats like Bill, Wilt and Kareem so you can make these assertions from a place of being informed. The info is out there.

Edit: can't believe yall got me in here defending Russell...

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Show me any media ranking that has LeBron below 2nd since he won his 4th title.

The bubble ring? Mickey Mouse ring? You mean were no team traveled and his sidekick outscored him in the playoffs? Where a week before they were going to all collectively quit to go do some dumb BLM protests? Lakers & Clippers agreed to leave? Until they were called and said they won't get their bonus? Beating the 5th seed in the east? Having a 5 month break?
This is the biggest joke ring that ever existed.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

That's just called not knowing, lol. Russell faced plenty of hall of famers and more often in a smaller league? The 15ppg is a function of the role his coach asked of him, it seemed to work pretty well. He could have definitely scored more and won less Ala Wilt. Also did he play with 9 legit hof caliber guys, or did he have teammates he put there with his dominance? Defensive specialist really downplays the rest of his game. He was a pretty good passer and absolute monster on the boards. Horry doesn't even belong in your post, do better. You guys should learn more about the 60s greats like Bill, Wilt and Kareem so you can make these assertions from a place of being informed. The info is out there.

Edit: can't believe yall got me in here defending Russell...

Got it, you have a weak counter argument so you insult the poster saying he "doesn't know". Been watching the NBA since 1984, and I consider myself pretty aware of the history. But carry on THOT if it makes you feel better.

[SouBeachTalents]

Kenny Smith has him #9

Lots of media guys have him below #2

But the larger point is that there's no goat debate - Lebron isn't #1 anywhere.. It's a fake debate that succeeded in getting him to #2 even though he never learned how to win (organic) and can't defeat maximum defensive attention (carry the scoring load)
Lmao, ONE person, not even a source like ESPN, SI, Slam :oldlol:

Btw, Kenny Smith ranked Kobe outside his top 10 completely, so nice find

https://fadeawayworld.net/nba-media/kenny-smith-ranks-lebron-no-10-on-all-time-list-kobe-is-not-in-my-top-10

[3ba11]

You undervalue what a dominant defensive player Russell was. His defensive impact was leagues higher than any other player in NBA history, by alot. His teams were so dominant defensively that they were playing '08 Celtics type of defense year in and year out.

I won't go to into it, but I went into good detail about how dominant his defense was when we had our top 50 players ever rankings ever months back.


The game format was the defense back then - no 3-point line, so paints were packed and offensive excellence was impossible

This meant that a defender like Russell could thrive

But ever since the 3-point line was instituted, every MVP has been a dominant offensive player - this means that Russell wouldn't be MVP-caliber in 3-pointer basketball - therefore, MJ's 6 rings as the best player is the goat accomplishment

[Shaquille O'Neal]

That's a board of about 100 people.. Maybe 200

No mainstream media source has Lebron #1

Not a single one.. Literally everyone has MJ as goat by massive margins


This is the correct answer. Plus that list was created in Oct 2020 - right after the aforementioned "bubble" ring. Recency BIAS from some people that are 30 years old or younger, obviously. ESPN marketing sure is strong.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

The game format was the defense back then - no 3-point line, so paints were packed and offensive excellence was impossible

This meant that a defender like Russell could thrive

But ever since the 3-point line was instituted, every MVP has been a dominant offensive player - this means that Russell wouldn't be MVP-caliber in 3-pointer basketball - therefore, MJ's 6 rings as the best player is the goat accomplishment

Even Russell's biggest critics would never admit he's have won 11 times had he joined the league in 1988. Not with 29 teams. But almost everyone agrees MJ would probably have won in 94 and 95 had he been in the league more than coming back in March of '95.

[1987_Lakers]

Even Russell's biggest critics would never admit he's have won 11 times had he joined the league in 1988. Not with 29 teams. But almost everyone agrees MJ would probably have won in 94 and 95 had he been in the league more than coming back in March of '95.

And would MJ win 6 titles if he joined the league in say 2006? Good luck going up against that Warriors team.

[1987_Lakers]

That's just called not knowing, lol. Russell faced plenty of hall of famers and more often in a smaller league? The 15ppg is a function of the role his coach asked of him, it seemed to work pretty well. He could have definitely scored more and won less Ala Wilt. Also did he play with 9 legit hof caliber guys, or did he have teammates he put there with his dominance? Defensive specialist really downplays the rest of his game. He was a pretty good passer and absolute monster on the boards. Horry doesn't even belong in your post, do better. You guys should learn more about the 60s greats like Bill, Wilt and Kareem so you can make these assertions from a place of being informed. The info is out there.

Edit: can't believe yall got me in here defending Russell...

Nicely said.

[3ba11]

And would MJ win 6 titles if he joined the league in say 2006? Good luck going up against that Warriors team.


Kawhi beat the Curry Warriors with just Lowry

KD made them a real team

Klay/Dray hadn't been all-stars heading into the 2015 season, so the Cavs' big 3 of perennial all-stars were the preseason favorite.. Lebron's colluding robbed KD of the 12' chip and Curry in 16' (Duncan in 13')

[1987_Lakers]

Kawhi beat the Curry Warriors with just Lowry

KD made them a real team
How nice of you to completely ignore the fact that KD & Klay were injured in that series.

MJ wouldn't stand a chance vs the KD/Curry Warriors.

[Axe]

Bron's a legit goat candidate no matter how much crying and slandering you guys do. In fact the point that some of you even have to work so hard and jump through so many hoops to downplay his accomplishments tells us everything we need to know. He's that big a deal.

One guy in here points to accolades as the reason without realizing Russell pretty much annihilates MJ in this regard. We're talking as many more Mvps over Mj as Mj has over Lebron. Nearly double the rings. If Fmvp existed during his career he'd have no less than 6. If dpoy existed we're looking at anywhere from 8 to 11 of them. And insane defensive numbers.
But what about wilt chamberlain? Some crazy lunatic here tries to convince he's way above kong in the goat rankings. :(

[3ba11]

How nice of you to completely ignore the fact that KD & Klay were injured in that series.

MJ wouldn't stand a chance vs the KD/Curry Warriors.


If MJ had an extra all-star like Lebron had (3 all-star team), he would beat any team in history.. easily.. he wouldn't need a 7th game just like his first 6 Finals

In case you haven't noticed, MJ just needed a minimum amount of help and he wouldn't lose.. he's the only guy that never lost with homecourt or with a 1 or 2 seed, while everyone else lost 5+ times with top seeds and many times with homecourt

[Axe]

Kawhi beat the Curry Warriors with just Lowry

KD made them a real team

Klay/Dray hadn't been all-stars heading into the 2015 season, so the Cavs' big 3 of perennial all-stars were the preseason favorite.. Lebron's colluding robbed KD of the 12' chip and Curry in 16' (Duncan in 13')
Funny how you berate kd for colluding also bt but you seem to have moved on over it now. :ohwell:

[1987_Lakers]

If MJ had an extra all-star like Lebron had (3 all-star team), he would beat any team in history.. easily.. he wouldn't need a 7th game just like his first 6 Finals

In case you haven't noticed, MJ just needed a minimum amount of help and he wouldn't lose.. he's the only guy that never lost with homecourt or with a 1 or 2 seed, while everyone else lost 5+ times with top seeds and many times with homecourt

I agree, he needs to be the 2nd fiddle to LeBron in order to beat them.

[Johnny32]

If MJ had an extra all-star like Lebron had (3 all-star team), he would beat any team in history.. easily.. he wouldn't need a 7th game just like his first 6 Finals

In case you haven't noticed, MJ just needed a minimum amount of help and he wouldn't lose.. he's the only guy that never lost with homecourt or with a 1 or 2 seed, while everyone else lost 5+ times with top seeds and many times with homecourt

mj had 3 all stars he just held grant back and he didn't make the asg until mj quit.

[Johnny32]

Kawhi beat the Curry Warriors with just Lowry

siakam averaged 20 ppg on 51% in the finals, tard.

[Baller789]

Got it, you have a weak counter argument so you insult the poster saying he "doesn't know". Been watching the NBA since 1984, and I consider myself pretty aware of the history. But carry on THOT if it makes you feel better.

Guess they keep ignoring your in combination with... Then proceeding to use keyhole arguments to point a narrative.

The Bronies then as predicted go on and use ad hominem attacks.

Also it has always been known that star offensive players are more valuable than star defensive players, except when referring to Bill R. apparently. How convenient.

[Johnny32]

You play to win the title, period.
6 rings with 0 losses in 13.5 seasons ALWAYS trumps 4 rings, 6 losses in 19. There's no getting around this.:lol

Too many shrinking violet moments for Lebron. He could have been the GOAT if he wasn't afraid of the late game. Clanked shit off the backboard in the closing minutes of game 6 2013 and or passed up the big shot (2018 Finals game 1) or hell his big loss in high school. If you get bored, go find footage of his junior year - has a history of shrinking in the big moments. You know this of course.

I have Lebron #6 all-time, and it fluctuates between 6 and 8th. Too much team hopping and losing 50% more than winning on the biggest stage.

lol your arguments are so simple minded it's absolutely hilarious. and he thinks he's smart too is the funniest part.

[Baller789]

lol your arguments are so simple minded it's absolutely hilarious. and he thinks he's smart too is the funniest part.

Ad hominem.

[Spurs m8]

Are you sure about that?

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=2004777

Why don't you show the real realgm poll...where hundreds voted and bron wasn't close to top.

You deceptive little rat

[Baller789]

Why don't you show the real realgm poll...where hundreds voted and bron wasn't close to top.

You deceptive little rat

Is this the same poll where an astounding 37 participants voted?

[Spurs m8]

Is this the same poll where an astounding 37 participants voted?

I'm talking about the one where - from memory - over 500 voted

[Spurs m8]

Is this the same poll where an astounding 37 participants voted?

Ah yes...the one 1987 used was 37 weirdos

I'll take the poll with the hundred and hundreds of normal people

Cheers

[TheGoatest]

The only time I thought people were crazy for hyping up LeBron is prior to him being drafted.
As soon as he threw that no-look pass to Ilgauskas in his very first pre-season game against the Pistons in 2003, I knew that it would only be a matter of time and avoidance of injuries before that 18 year-old kid became the GOAT. And in 2016 it happened. Everything he's done since has been overkill.

[sdot_thadon]

Got it, you have a weak counter argument so you insult the poster saying he "doesn't know". Been watching the NBA since 1984, and I consider myself pretty aware of the history. But carry on THOT if it makes you feel better.I think that's more of an observation than an insult, but if it's your size I can't tell you how to wear it fella. If you've been legit watching the NBA that long and the 1st thing you say about Russell is 15ppg, that says alot about you lol. Russell was locked in a decades long debate about who was better between him and Wilt another longterm people's goat. Gaudy numbers and all a legit debate existed about who was better/greater. Most fans now are just too young to know or too lazy to learn about those guys. I always got a massive kick out of watching Mj stans tell Lebron stans the reason they think Bron's all that is because they were too young to see Mj, while in that exact moment being too young themselves to have seen Kareem, Wilt, Dr.J , Bill, etc.

[sdot_thadon]

But what about wilt chamberlain? Some crazy lunatic here tries to convince he's way above kong in the goat rankings. :(

Wilt has a decent goat argument himself, not quite as strong as it once was but can't deny his greatness. He's still the goat for fans of a certain age, he was their Mj or Lebron.

[FultzNationRISE]

now i see they were right all along. this man is the goat. He has everything but team success which was withheld from him by haters within nba community who didn't want to see him surpass jordan.


bingo