What If Cases that change the scope of the GOAT argument

[coastalmarker99]

What do you think are the most interesting "What If?" cases that change the scope of the GOAT argument?

Or top 10 all time if you want to expand it?

#1) Larry Bird hurting his back working on his house

#2) Magic HIV

#3) Wilt - If he took Red's offer to go to Harvard so the Celtics could draft him by using the territorial pick rule

#4) What if Detroit had the number one pick in 2003? LeBron might have opened his career with three straight titles.

#5 The draft pick that turned out to be Scottie Pippen initially belonged to the Knicks.

They dealt it to Seattle for what turned out to be a rental player.

Let's say the Knicks keep that pick and draft Scottie.

Now imagine how that 90s Knicks/Bulls rivalry looks with Pippen on the Knicks alongside Ewing.

I think Jordan spends his career getting dominated by defensive-minded Detroit and then NY.

[Full Court]

What if Lebronie did a lot more winning and a lot less losing....he would be the GOAT.

[HoopsNY]

Great thread. We can also include...

6- What if Grant Hill doesn't get hurt and the Magic bring over Tim Duncan? Do the Lakers lose in 2001 and 2002 in the finals to Orlando?

7- What if Patrick Ewing and Larry Johnson are healthy in 1999, with Ewing never injuring his wrist of having achilles problems? The Knicks would have a Ewing/Camby front court with Houston/Spreewell on the perimeter to matchup better against SA.

8- What if Gail Goodrich never goes to the Jazz, and Magic ends up there instead of LA?

9- What if the Houston Rockets traded Ralph Sampson to Portland in exchange for Clyde and the #2 pick. Would we have seen the MJ-Hakeem-Clyde trio that Hakeem spoke about in his book?

10- What if the league allows Chris Paul to be traded to the Lakers? Would a Paul-Howard-Kobe trio win in 2013?

11- What if MJ doesn't retire in 1993? The likely scenario is that they win again in 1994, securing a 4th straight title. But do they win vs Hakeem/Clyde in 1995? Intuition tells me no.

12- This one is my favorite, what if John Lucas, Mitchell Wiggins, and Lewis Lloyd never used cocaine and Ralph Sampson never gets hurt? Do the Rockets go on to win multiple championships? Does it result in Hakeem eventually becoming the GOAT over MJ?

[coastalmarker99]

Great thread. We can also include...

6- What if Grant Hill doesn't get hurt and the Magic bring over Tim Duncan? Do the Lakers lose in 2001 and 2002 in the finals to Orlando?

7- What if Patrick Ewing and Larry Johnson are healthy in 1999, with Ewing never injuring his wrist of having achilles problems? The Knicks would have a Ewing/Camby front court with Houston/Spreewell on the perimeter to matchup better against SA.

8- What if Gail Goodrich never goes to the Jazz, and Magic ends up there instead of LA?

9- What if the Houston Rockets traded Ralph Sampson to Portland in exchange for Clyde and the #2 pick. Would we have seen the MJ-Hakeem-Clyde trio that Hakeem spoke about in his book?

10- What if the league allows Chris Paul to be traded to the Lakers? Would a Paul-Howard-Kobe trio win in 2013?

11- What if MJ doesn't retire in 1993? The likely scenario is that they win again in 1994, securing a 4th straight title. But do they win vs Hakeem/Clyde in 1995? Intuition tells me no.

12- This one is my favorite, what if John Lucas, Mitchell Wiggins, and Lewis Lloyd never used cocaine and Ralph Sampson never gets hurt? Do the Rockets go on to win multiple championships? Does it result in Hakeem eventually becoming the GOAT over MJ?


If Ralph Sampson never gets hurt.

I think Hakeem is sitting on 4 rings nowadays as the Rockets win the title in 1987 and 1988.



As a result of this Hakeem with 4 rings and 4 final MVPs to go along with his MVP and DPOY is most likely ranked as a top 5 player of all time nowadays

[HoopsNY]

If Ralph Sampson never gets hurt.

I think Hakeem is sitting on 4 rings nowadays as the Rockets win the title in 1987 and 1988.



As a result of this Hakeem with 4 rings and 4 final MVPs to go along with his MVP and DPOY is most likely ranked as a top 5 player of all time nowadays

I also think they have a shot at the title into the '90s. A full roster likely means more bargaining chips for trades and or draft picks, thus solidifying their chances at a championship. 1993 seems like a safer bet because the Bulls were not at full strength with Pippen and his ankle injury. Sampson and Hakeem would have stood a good chance at a potential three peat.

It's very possible, as you said, that Hakeem ends up with 4-5 titles, with 5-6 finals appearances. Given the Rockets would have had better regular season records, Hakeem probably has at least 2 MVPs, if not more, and 4-5 FMVPs.

If MJ doesn't retire and they lose to the Rockets in 1995, then it would be Hakeem who would be the undisputed GOAT and MJ fans/stans would be arguing day and night to prove otherwise.

[coastalmarker99]

I also think they have a shot at the title into the '90s. A full roster likely means more bargaining chips for trades and or draft picks, thus solidifying their chances at a championship. 1993 seems like a safer bet because the Bulls were not at full strength with Pippen and his ankle injury. Sampson and Hakeem would have stood a good chance at a potential three peat.

It's very possible, as you said, that Hakeem ends up with 4-5 titles, with 5-6 finals appearances. Given the Rockets would have had better regular season records, Hakeem probably has at least 2 MVPs, if not more, and 4-5 FMVPs.

If MJ doesn't retire and they lose to the Rockets in 1995, then it would be Hakeem who would be the undisputed GOAT and MJ fans/stans would be arguing day and night to prove otherwise.


My favourite what-if of all time is If Wilt took Red's offer to go to Harvard so the Celtics could draft him by using the territorial pick rule.



Wilt thus a result enters the Nba in 1959 with the most stacked team and the best coach as well.


This would have meant that Wilt who was by far the best individual player of that era would have utterly racked up title after title with the Celtics plus more regular-season MVPs.


Plus since Boston's main adversary in the Finals during that era was a team that wasn't that good at the C position and Russell was having huge series against them.

Wilt would have feasted on the Lakers like he was doing in the regular season and that would be a Finals resume, the Holy Grail of modern fans goat arguments.


Wilt nowadays as a result is most likely seen as the undisputed goat with 9 to 11 rings and 6 MVPs to go along with his stats.


Furthermore, this also got me thinking about how having Wilt on the Celtics would have changed Kareem’s legacy.



As If Wilt has 9 to 11 rings, and 6 MVP's to go along with his stats.


He's clearly the GOAT from that point without another center on his level.

Kareem then comes into the league as the Kobe to Wilt’s Jordan.


Even if he has the exact same career, I’m not sure he’d ever escape Wilt’s shadow.


Because Russell wasn’t as offensively dominant, and Wilt was perceived to be more focused on stats than winning.


Kareem is often looked at as their equal or even better.


But Wilt becomes the NBA’s Babe Ruth if he was on the Celtics.


No other center could ever be on his level at that point.

[RogueBorg]

What-if Len Bias and Reggie Lewis never die? What does the championship picture look like from 1986-1999?

Would Len Bias combined with Bird, Parish, and McHale get the Celtics over the Lakers and Pistons from '86-'90?
Do the Bulls still win 6 rings in the 90's going up against Bias and Lewis?

[TheGoatest]

#1) Larry Bird hurting his back working on his house

#2) Magic HIV

#3) Wilt - If he took Red's offer to go to Harvard so the Celtics could draft him by using the territorial pick rule

#4) What if Detroit had the number one pick in 2003? LeBron might have opened his career with three straight titles.

#5 The draft pick that turned out to be Scottie Pippen initially belonged to the Knicks.

They dealt it to Seattle for what turned out to be a rental player.

Let's say the Knicks keep that pick and draft Scottie.

Now imagine how that 90s Knicks/Bulls rivalry looks with Pippen on the Knicks alongside Ewing.

I think Jordan spends his career getting dominated by defensive-minded Detroit and then NY.

#5 is really the biggest "What if". LeBron being drafted by the Pistons would've meant him winning 4-5 chips in the 00s alone, but it doesn't really matter because he ended up winning several chips regardless, and his career and whole legacy isn't ball-and-chained to a single teammate and a single coach.

Anyway, there are so many teams where the Great Scott Pippen being on them would've completely changed how the 90s ended up looking:

Ewing + The Great Scott Pippen = A sh!tload of rings
Olajuwon + The Great Scott Pippen = A sh!tload of rings
Robinson + The Great Scott Pippen = A sh!tload of rings
Barkley + The Great Scott Pippen = A sh!tload of rings
Malone + The Great Scott Pippen = A sh!tload of rings

[coastalmarker99]

What-if Len Bias and Reggie Lewis never die? What does the championship picture look like from 1986-1999?

Would Len Bias combined with Bird, Parish, and McHale get the Celtics over the Lakers and Pistons from '86-'90?
Do the Bulls still win 6 rings in the 90's going up against Bias and Lewis?

I think if Bias does not die that the Celtics win the title in 1987 and then make the finals again in 1988.

It's hard to say what happens afterwards through.

[Johnny32]

what if lebron or kd played in the 80s/90s vs those horrific wing defenders.

[Wally450]

What if Len Bias doesn't die after getting drafted? The Celtics could've probably won another championship or two.

Edit: Didn't see that it was already mentioned. Just commented after reading the OP.

[JBSptfn]

What if Maurice Stokes (Cincinnati Royal PF) doesn't have the accident that turned him into a vegetable in 1958, and he played with Oscar Robertson in the 60's (along with Jack Twyman, Wayne Embry, Bob Boozer, and eventually Jerry Lucas if they still get him. O and Lucas were territorial picks)?

The Big O and Stokes could have been Stockton and Malone before Stockton and Malone, and they probably steal a title or two away from Boston, which would have given both an even bigger cache. Maybe the Royals stay in Cincy, and don't end up in KC and Sac-Town.


#4) What if Detroit had the number one pick in 2003? LeBron might have opened his career with three straight titles.

If that pick would have won the lottery, it would have went to Memphis. It was only protected if it was between picks 2-18.

If the Grizzlies win that lottery, LeBron has a good chance to get to the Finals earlier than he did in Cleveland, with a solid shot at a title. The 2004-06 Grizz had guys like Pau, White Chocolate, Mike Miller, Shane Battier, and James Posey. They won 50, 45, and 49 games in those three seasons. Imagine if they have LeBron. He adds at least 5-8 wins each season minimum.

[SouBeachTalents]

Of ones that OP didn't mention

1. If Duncan had gone to Orlando in 2000. He evidently was going to sign there until he learned of the teams policy that they didn't allow wives or girlfriends to travel on the team plane. This obviously changes the entire complexion of the next 15 years, and would've paired up Duncan & McGrady.

2. If the Lakers didn't get the number one pick in the '79 draft, and Magic returned to college. The Celtics would've had the number 1 pick the following season, for all we know potentially pairing up Magic & Bird.

[JBSptfn]

Of ones that OP didn't mention

1. If Duncan had gone to Orlando in 2000. He evidently was going to sign there until he learned of the teams policy that they didn't allow wives or girlfriends to travel on the team plane. This obviously changes the entire complexion of the next 15 years, and would've paired up Duncan & McGrady.

2. If the Lakers didn't get the number one pick in the '79 draft, and Magic returned to college. The Celtics would've had the number 1 pick the following season, for all we know potentially pairing up Magic & Bird.

1. What if they rescind that policy, get Duncan, and don't trade Ben Wallace and Chucky Atkins for Grant Hill? Imagine a lineup of Wallace, Duncan, T-Mac, Mike Miller, and Darrell Armstrong, with Bo Outlaw and Troy Hudson coming off the bench and several other seven-footers to run out there and accumulate fouls against Shaq (John Amaechi, Andrew Declercq, etc...). The Lakers don't win any more titles.

2. In 1979, the Celtics signed FA M.L. Carr from Detroit. As a result, there was a trade completed on September 9th of that year that sent Bob McAdoo to Detroit for what turned out to be the #1 and #13 overall pick in the 1980 draft. If Magic comes back to MSU, that may still happen (since legendary GM Jack McCloskey didn't take over until December of that year), but there are no guarantees.

Let's say Dick Vitale (the Piston HC at the time. I don't know if he had a hand in personnel or not) or whoever was making the decisions knew that Magic was still in school, and wanted him instead of Bob McAdoo? Maybe the Pistons accept Boston's 1981 first-rounder as compensation, and go into the draft (if the win the flip against GS. Let's say they do) with the first and 13th picks.

Let's say McCloskey is hired (he probably still is. That team was horrible). Now, he has the first, 13th, and 17th picks (Bob Lanier wanted out, and he still gets traded to Milwaukee). He takes Magic #1 and brings the Michigan native back home.

Then, in 81, where does Isiah end up? Dallas still takes Aguirre, leaving the Nets at #2 to take Buck Williams. Atlanta has the 3rd pick. Imagine Isiah with Nique and Atlanta's Air Force. Maybe they get over the hump, and that changes Nique's legacy.

[Xiao Yao You]

If Ralph Sampson never gets hurt.

I think Hakeem is sitting on 4 rings nowadays as the Rockets win the title in 1987 and 1988.



As a result of this Hakeem with 4 rings and 4 final MVPs to go along with his MVP and DPOY is most likely ranked as a top 5 player of all time nowadays


I thought Sampson was best as a rookie at center not PF as he played alongside Hakeem. They would have looked to trade one of them eventually

[Shogon]

Young buck LeBron with a stacked ass defensive team would be a sight to behold.

But would he be quite as good as he is now? Maybe, maybe not. Larry Brown was a complete asshole and probably would have bullied him, tbh. No way to know.



Whoever said Tim Duncan to the Magic with a healthy Grant Hill ripped my heart out.

The Magic were working on Duncan, McGrady & Hill. And Mike Miller. Holy shit, imagine. McGrady would never have been labeled as good as he was as an individual, but the team results would have been insane.


Thanks Doc Rivers, you utter ****ing dipshit. Thanks a lot you gigantic piece of smelly dog turd shit.


But imagine Duncan goes to the Magic, they don't get McGrady but they do get Hill who still ends up hurt.

Duncan's all time rankings take a huge ****ing plunge because the Magic front office would have never surrounded him with enough to get a title, no matter how good he actually was. They just wouldn't have done it. And his entire career would have looked wildly different.

Life is funny as ****. There are so many untold variables that completely alter the course of our lives in any given instance, it's impossible to comprehend.

[Shogon]

Oh nevermind about LeBron to Detroit. I forgot they didn't already have Rasheed during the 2003 draft. They likely don't get Rasheed and they're a much worse team in the short term because of it.

Still... LeBron + Billups + Rip + Big Ben + Tayshaun would have been a better team than LeBron had any time prior to Miami.


That Rasheed trade was only made because Dumars knew the Pistons weren't going anywhere and it was worth the gamble. And it worked out perfectly.

Joe Dumars is a complete dumbass but man oh man did he play the right card that season. That trade working out literally saved his career as long as it did.

He lived on that trade for years. Just like Doc Rivers has lived on the 2008 stacked ass Celtics title for years.

[RogueBorg]

What if Len Bias doesn't die after getting drafted? The Celtics could've probably won another championship or two.

Edit: Didn't see that it was already mentioned. Just commented after reading the OP.

If Boston goes into 1990 with Bird, Parish, McHale, and Parish you might be looking at no repeat for Los Angeles or Detroit and the Celtics winning 5 in row from '86 to '90. I was shocked when Boston landed Bias in the '86 draft. They were coming off their Finals loss to the Lakers. That shock was topped a few days later hearing of his death over the radio.

[Johnny32]

What if the league never changed the rules to help jordone deal with the physicality of the late 80s.

[HoopsNY]

1. What if they rescind that policy, get Duncan, and don't trade Ben Wallace and Chucky Atkins for Grant Hill? Imagine a lineup of Wallace, Duncan, T-Mac, Mike Miller, and Darrell Armstrong, with Bo Outlaw and Troy Hudson coming off the bench and several other seven-footers to run out there and accumulate fouls against Shaq (John Amaechi, Andrew Declercq, etc...). The Lakers don't win any more titles.

2. In 1979, the Celtics signed FA M.L. Carr from Detroit. As a result, there was a trade completed on September 9th of that year that sent Bob McAdoo to Detroit for what turned out to be the #1 and #13 overall pick in the 1980 draft. If Magic comes back to MSU, that may still happen (since legendary GM Jack McCloskey didn't take over until December of that year), but there are no guarantees.

Let's say Dick Vitale (the Piston HC at the time. I don't know if he had a hand in personnel or not) or whoever was making the decisions knew that Magic was still in school, and wanted him instead of Bob McAdoo? Maybe the Pistons accept Boston's 1981 first-rounder as compensation, and go into the draft (if the win the flip against GS. Let's say they do) with the first and 13th picks.

Let's say McCloskey is hired (he probably still is. That team was horrible). Now, he has the first, 13th, and 17th picks (Bob Lanier wanted out, and he still gets traded to Milwaukee). He takes Magic #1 and brings the Michigan native back home.

Then, in 81, where does Isiah end up? Dallas still takes Aguirre, leaving the Nets at #2 to take Buck Williams. Atlanta has the 3rd pick. Imagine Isiah with Nique and Atlanta's Air Force. Maybe they get over the hump, and that changes Nique's legacy.

Good posts bro. Keep 'em coming.

[FKAri]

Wilt to Boston.

Not only would he have more rings, there's a chance that environment molds him differently. Being the best basketball player he could be or winning weren't a priority at times for Wilt. Meanwhile Russell's defensive abilities might have been wasted on a coach who didn't know how to use him the way Red did. Red was way ahead of the game in terms of defensive strategy and Russell was the perfect tool for the job. They both needed each other to be as great as they were.

[JBSptfn]

Good posts bro. Keep 'em coming.

I plan on it. Here's another:

What if the Suns fall in love with Pippen in the pre-draft workouts (he was rising up draft boards before the 87 draft), and decide to take him second overall instead of Armon Gilliam?

By the next year, you have Pip, Thunder Dan, Torcher Chambers, KJ, Eddie Johnson, and Mark West. Now, I don't think they beat LA in 89, but if Pippen keeps improving in Phoenix (I don't completely buy the "MJ made Pippen" talk), maybe they are in the Finals in 1990.

Also, not having the sidekick affects MJ. Maybe they don't get Horace Grant, either, and the building of the Bulls is stunted severely. As a result, maybe Reinsdorf thinks harder about that MJ to Clippers trade that was looked at in 1988.