Dirk worked so hard for 10 years and finally figured it out in 2011 but......... [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

3ba11

03-23-2022, 06:47 AM

AussieSteve

03-23-2022, 07:09 AM

It's shame that 90s superstars weren't so lucky.

While most stars were the lone top 15-20 player on their team, there was a team that had two top 5 players as well as an elite cast.

3ba11

03-23-2022, 07:21 AM

It's shame that 90s superstars weren't so lucky.

While most stars were the lone top 15-20 player on their team, there was a team that had two top 5 players as well as an elite cast.

Everyone correctly views Isiah Thomas as an all-time great for going back-to-back in 1990, but no one would know who he was if Jordan teamed up with Drexler/McHale in 88' and stole his rings..

If Isiah lost to Jordan's super-teams in 89', he would be forced to collude with Hakeem/Robinson to overcome Jordan/Drexler - no one would respect him for this like people don't respect Durant's rings.. But the reality is that Jordan's collusions came first and upset the natural competitive environment.

Again, imagine if Dirk lost in 2011 like he was supposed to - he might not even make top 75, which would be a travesty.... well that's what happened to KD - he would've been the next Jordan by winning in 12' with Westbrick, but instead his legacy was robbed by Lebron's collusions

..

AussieSteve

03-23-2022, 07:40 AM

Everyone correctly views Isiah Thomas as an all-time great for going back-to-back in 1990, but no one would know who he was if Jordan teamed up with Drexler/McHale in 88' and stole his rings..

If Isiah lost to Jordan's super-teams in 89', he would be forced to collude with Hakeem/Robinson to overcome Jordan/Drexler - no one would respect him for this like people don't respect Durant's rings.. But the reality is that Jordan's collusions shouldn't be respected either

Again, imagine if Dirk lost in 2011 like he was supposed to - he might not even make top 75, which would be a travesty.... well that's what happened to KD - he would've been the next Jordan by winning in 12' with Westbrick, but instead his legacy was robbed by Lebron's collusions

..

Sure. Whatever. These are some wierd and irrelevant hypotheticals.

The 90s Bulls factually had two top 5 players while no other team in the league had more than one top 10 player though (except arguably the Jazz some seasons, with Stockton a fringe top 10 player).

It was a travesty in the same way as you describe in OP.

3ba11

03-23-2022, 07:46 AM

Sure. Whatever. These are some wierd and irrelevant hypotheticals.

The 90s Bulls factually had two top 5 players while no other team in the league had more than one top 10 player though (except arguably the Jazz some seasons, with Stockton a fringe top 10 player).

It was a travesty in the same way as you describe in OP.

It isn't a hypothetical that Lebron's super-team collusions almost stole Dirk's ring - it would've been a travesty and a robbery of Dirk's career legacy and resume.. Unfortunately, the collusions succeeded in stealing Durant, Duncan, and Curry's organic chips in subsequent years.

That isn't a hypothetical, and if Jordan had done that, guys like Isiah wouldn't be viewed as all-time greats the same way they are now

So you've been literally hypnotized and don't realize it - you got mad at Durant for "stealing" Lebron's rings in 17', but Lebron stole everyone's rings before that... He started the juicing, so everyone else had to join in

KD would literally be viewed like MJ if he had won organically with Westbrick in 2012 and subsequent years

coastalmarker99

03-23-2022, 07:50 AM

Can you imagine how that 90s Knicks/Bulls rivalry looks with Pippen on the Knicks alongside Ewing?

I think Jordan spends his career getting dominated by NY for most of the 1990s.

3ba11

03-23-2022, 07:57 AM

Can you imagine how that 90s Knicks/Bulls rivalry looks with Pippen on the Knicks alongside Ewing?

I think Jordan spends his career getting dominated by NY for most of the 1990s.

Pippen was outplayed by Ewing's sidekick 3 times (89' ECSF, 92' ECSF, 96' ECSF) yet Jordan still won each time, including as a big underdog in 89'.

Pippen was a low-producing bum that Jordan carried in literally every series - MJ/Pippen weren't a duo because there's never been a duo where 1 guy was always carried by massive margins

Every 90's sidekick was an elite, go-to scorer that achieved elite stats in many series (1b's), except Pippen.. Pippen was the only 90's sidekick that had low peak capability and was carried in every series (never a 1b like every other sidekick)

coastalmarker99

03-23-2022, 08:04 AM

Pippen was outplayed by Ewing's sidekick 3 times (89' ECSF, 92' ECSF, 96' ECSF) yet Jordan still won each time, including as a big underdog in 89'.

Pippen was a low-producing bum that Jordan carried in literally every series - MJ/Pippen weren't a duo because there's never been a duo where 1 guy was always carried by massive margins

Every 90's sidekick was an elite, go-to scorer that achieved elite stats in many series (1b's), except Pippen.. Pippen was the only 90's sidekick that had low peak capability and was carried in every series (never a 1b like every other sidekick)

I am sure that Ewing would prefer Pippen as his second-best player instead of John Starks.

8Ball

03-23-2022, 08:27 AM

All of Bron's rings were organic.

Teams were built organically through trades, off season signings, buyout.

3ba11

03-23-2022, 08:29 AM

I am sure that Ewing would prefer Pippen as his second-best player instead of John Starks.

In 1989, Pippen was a bum - Ewing didn't want him

In 1992, X-Man completely dominated Pippen and was vastly superior.. Again, Ewing had the advantage but still lost.

In 1996, Pippen averaged 15 on 33% for the series - Ewing can't win with that.

Pippen's production level was the same tier as prime X-Man, Starks, or even Horry.. That's Pippen's caliber, but 6 rings simply inflates him beyond that.

Heck, only Pippen failed to reach peak Horry-level in the Finals over a meaningful sample size - Pippen is 0/6 in reaching Horry's gamescore from the 95' Finals - imagine winning 6 Finals with a sidekick that couldn't reach peak-Horry level

Pippen has less ppg and apg than most 90's sidekicks, while also having the lowest peak capability of any notable sidekick and he's the only sidekick that never led any playoff series (never a 1b - always carried)

The historical timeline shows that Pippen was propped up by the triangle and dynasty chemistry.. otherwise, he was a 14 ppg dunker that couldn't score

8Ball

03-23-2022, 08:35 AM

I am sure that Ewing would prefer Pippen as his second-best player instead of John Starks.

Pippen has more all nba 1st teams than ewing by a multiple of 3.

Pippen was a better player.

AlternativeAcc.

03-23-2022, 08:39 AM

Dirk was carried in the finals by his stacked cast

You're a casual.

3ba11

03-23-2022, 08:40 AM

Pippen has more all nba 1st teams than ewing by a multiple of 3.

Pippen was a better player.

Media awards aren't a measure of basketball ability - they're just dumb awards given by Joe the Plumbers that are swayed heavily by winning spotlight.

No one thought Pippen was anywhere near Ewing then or now, on either side of the ball.. Ewing is a "1st option Finals guy" - all the best players of the 90's were (Shaq, MJ, Hakeem, Malone, Barkley, Ewing, Drexler)

Kawhi_Why_Not

03-23-2022, 08:41 AM

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=J3NvhxKicJY

Duncan lost because he's a born cuck swimmer. Been to 6 finals and only averaged 25PPG in 1 of them. Look at the bums he beat in the finals:

- Allan Houston (top 250)
- Jason Kidd (top 75)
- billups (top 150)
- pre prime lebron

So he's beating 1 bum after the other and not even scoring at a high volume. Luckily, alpha kawhi took control in 2014 averaging 24 to Duncan's 12 in the three straight wins.

He's also 0-3 in finals mvps vs LeBron

3ba11

03-23-2022, 08:44 AM

Dirk was carried in the finals by his stacked cast

You're a casual.

2011 Playoffs

Wade....... 24.5 ppg
Lebron..... 23.7 ppg

So you're a casual that's been brainwashed by the dumb media

KD would literally be recognized as Jordan's equal if he won organically with Westbrick in 2012 and thereafter - only Lebron's collusions stopped this - Lebron ruined the natural competitive environment and distorted the rankings

Again, thank goodness the hoop gods allowed Dirk to get his hard-earned title - it was karma for Dirk to get the organic ring that Lebron thought was impossible

AlternativeAcc.

03-23-2022, 08:55 AM

2011 Playoffs

Wade....... 24.5 ppg
Lebron..... 23.7 ppg

So you're a casual that's been brainwashed by the dumb media

KD would literally be recognized as Jordan's equal if he won organically with Westbrick in 2012 and thereafter - only Lebron's collusions stopped this - Lebron ruined the natural competitive environment and distorted the rankings

Again, thank goodness the hoop gods allowed Dirk to get his hard-earned title - it was karma for Dirk to get the organic ring that Lebron thought was impossible

Blame Ainge

He created the super team era

Pierce. KG, Allen, rondo

Meanwhile lebron was expected to win with mo Williams

Heat weren't a super team due to Wade's westbrick like drop-off and boshs inability to fit

Lebron carried them to multiple rings and knocked out about over a dozen Hofers in the process.

You have to bring up his worst playoff performance at age 25 over a decade ago because you have nothing else. Makes you look very desperate

tpols

03-23-2022, 09:44 AM

Sure. Whatever. These are some wierd and irrelevant hypotheticals.

The 90s Bulls factually had two top 5 players while no other team in the league had more than one top 10 player though (except arguably the Jazz some seasons, with Stockton a fringe top 10 player).

It was a travesty in the same way as you describe in OP.

You re just lying if you have Pippen top 5 in a league with MJ, Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Barkley etc nevermind Ewing, Drexler, Karl Malone, Stockton, Penny, Grant Hill, Gary Payton, Reggie, Kemp, etc. This is blatant dishonesty. Pippen averaged Iggy numbers in the 2nd 3peat.

Ultimately the point is true though that Dirks ring was the most organic ring ever. He truly stuck it out and won with Jason Terry as his 2nd option. LeBron could absolutely never do that much less do it in a wild wild west gauntlet. He can't even make the playoffs without an MVP caliber teammate like AD out west.

ShawkFactory

03-23-2022, 09:49 AM

You re just lying if you have Pippen top 5 in a league with MJ, Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Barkley etc nevermind Ewing, Drexler, Karl Malone, Stockton, Penny, Grant Hill, Gary Payton, Reggie, Kemp, etc. This is blatant dishonesty. Pippen averaged Iggy numbers in the 2nd 3peat.

Ultimately the point is true though that Dirks ring was the most organic ring ever. He truly stuck it out and won with Jason Terry as his 2nd option. LeBron could absolutely never do that much less do it in a wild wild west gauntlet. He can't even make the playoffs without an MVP caliber teammate like AD out west.

So because it took him longer to win than say Duncan, his ring is more "organic"?

I don't think people know what that means anymore. You've been lost in 3ball.

tpols

03-23-2022, 09:52 AM

Can you imagine how that 90s Knicks/Bulls rivalry looks with Pippen on the Knicks alongside Ewing?

I think Jordan spends his career getting dominated by NY for most of the 1990s.

Does Jordan get to play with that super tough Pat Riley crew ~ X-man, Mason, and Oakley throughout the years? Because the Knicks took the Bulls to 7 with MJ out playing Ewing and Xavier Mcdaniels out playing pippen. Jordan still would've won in that case. I don't think you realize how many times pippen shit the bed.

tpols

03-23-2022, 09:59 AM

So because it took him longer to win than say Duncan, his ring is more "organic"?

I don't think people know what that means anymore. You've been lost in 3ball.

Duncan won his first ring with an elite David Robinson. Go look at '99 Robinsons metrics. He was dominant and way better than anybody Dirk was playing with by every measure. But that's besides the point because yes Duncan was an organic winner as well. He just had more help at the start than Dirk.

ShawkFactory

03-23-2022, 10:00 AM

Duncan won his first ring with an elite David Robinson. Go look at '99 Robinsons metrics. He was dominant and way better than anybody Dirk was playing with by every measure. But that's besides the point because yes Duncan was an organic winner as well. He just had more help at the start than Dirk.

So...?

What does that have to do with organic?

tpols

03-23-2022, 10:05 AM

So...?

What does that have to do with organic?

Duncan and Dirk didn't team hop around and collude with MVP talents for their rings. Duncan won even after Robinson fell off. Dirk was a hair away from two rings with Jason Terry and Josh Howard lmao. They didn't join say... Kobe and Pau to get their rings. Imagine prime Duncan and Kobe on the same team with an All NBA 3rd option. It would be cheap rings. Not organic. GMO style championships.

ShawkFactory

03-23-2022, 10:14 AM

Duncan and Dirk didn't team hop around and collude with MVP talents for their rings. Duncan won even after Robinson fell off. Dirk was a hair away from two rings with Jason Terry and Josh Howard lmao. They didn't join say... Kobe and Pau to get their rings. Imagine prime Duncan and Kobe on the same team with an All NBA 3rd option. It would be cheap rings. Not organic. GMO style championships.

Dude this totally would have been a super interesting and edgy thing to say in 2012

ralph_i_el

03-23-2022, 04:57 PM

Manny98

03-23-2022, 05:36 PM

All of Bron's rings were organic.

Teams were built organically through trades, off season signings, buyout.

:roll:

Norcaliblunt

03-23-2022, 05:48 PM

The bigger travesty is Phoenix not resigning Amare Stoudemire because Phoenix wins that 2011 chip if they roll it back one more time like Dallas did.

AussieSteve

03-23-2022, 06:15 PM

You re just lying if you have Pippen top 5 in a league with MJ, Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Barkley etc nevermind Ewing, Drexler, Karl Malone, Stockton, Penny, Grant Hill, Gary Payton, Reggie, Kemp, etc. This is blatant dishonesty. Pippen averaged Iggy numbers in the 2nd 3peat.

Ultimately the point is true though that Dirks ring was the most organic ring ever. He truly stuck it out and won with Jason Terry as his 2nd option. LeBron could absolutely never do that much less do it in a wild wild west gauntlet. He can't even make the playoffs without an MVP caliber teammate like AD out west.

Pippen was top 5 in 1993 through to 1996 that's for sure. Regardless of where you rank him, no team had a better second-best player in the 90s

Obviously Jordan was the best player in the league but Pippen was also the best second-best player in the league and better than the vast majority of first-best players

So in the context of OP, 90s stars faced the same kind of travesty.

Axe

03-23-2022, 06:49 PM

ImKobe

03-23-2022, 08:59 PM

It's shame that 90s superstars weren't so lucky.

While most stars were the lone top 15-20 player on their team, there was a team that had two top 5 players as well as an elite cast.

Stop lying about the 90s man.. Lakers had Magic & Worthy, Portland had Clyde & Porter, Suns had Barkley & KJ and that team had four 15+ ppg guys with like 7 total that averaged 10+ ppg that year.

Then you look at the 2nd 3-Peat and the Sonics had GP, Kemp & Schrempf & the Jazz had Stockton, Malone & Hornacek. So all of MJ's Finals opponents had multiple top 5-20 players. Then there's also Shaq & Penny with Grant & 3D, Rockets with Hakeem, Drexler & Horry etc.. Duncan & Robinson on the Spurs in the late 90s are another example.. Lakers had 4 All-Stars in '98 and got swept by the same Jazz team that people say wasn't as good as the best teams in today's league.

ImKobe

03-23-2022, 09:05 PM

Pippen was a better player in the 1991 finals than kobe was in the 2000 finals.

Pippen was 25 and healthy while Kobe was 21 and played on one leg..

What did the 21 y.o Kobe do to Pippen in the WCF again? How did Portland choke that 4th quarter lead? :(

AussieSteve

03-23-2022, 11:54 PM

Stop lying about the 90s man.. Lakers had Magic & Worthy, Portland had Clyde & Porter, Suns had Barkley & KJ and that team had four 15+ ppg guys with like 7 total that averaged 10+ ppg that year.

Then you look at the 2nd 3-Peat and the Sonics had GP, Kemp & Schrempf & the Jazz had Stockton, Malone & Hornacek. So all of MJ's Finals opponents had multiple top 5-20 players. Then there's also Shaq & Penny with Grant & 3D, Rockets with Hakeem, Drexler & Horry etc.. Duncan & Robinson on the Spurs in the late 90s are another example.. Lakers had 4 All-Stars in '98 and got swept by the same Jazz team that people say wasn't as good as the best teams in today's league.

I see a whole bunch of 2nd options here that are clearly not as good as Pippen. You're just speaking to my point.

Baller789

03-24-2022, 02:45 AM

I see a whole bunch of 2nd options here that are clearly not as good as Pippen. You're just speaking to my point.

Clearly as good? Hmmm let's see...

Penny Hardaway, Gary Payton, Robinson, and Drexler as second options were pretty good.

Gohan

03-24-2022, 03:06 AM

Pippen has more all nba 1st teams than ewing by a multiple of 3.

Pippen was a better player.

No he wasnt thats a myth. Pip is overrated to hell by jordan haters and underrated bad by 3ball

AussieSteve

03-24-2022, 06:32 AM

Clearly as good? Hmmm let's see...

Penny Hardaway, Gary Payton, Robinson, and Drexler as second options were pretty good.

For one season, '96, Penny was on a level with Pippen as a second option. I'll grant that. The next season, Shaq left.

Payton was the best player on the Sonics. Pippen >> Kemp.

Pippen >> Houston Drexler

DRob / TD in vs Pip in 98 is valid.

3ba11

03-24-2022, 01:01 PM

I see a whole bunch of 2nd options here that are clearly not as good as Pippen. You're just speaking to my point.

Pippen averaged less ppg and apg than most 90's sidekicks and everyone's best was better than his - everyone was a go-to player with numerous dominant series and elite stats, whereas Pippen wasn't a threat to dominate and therefore made MJ face maximum defensive attention (carry the scoring load).

3ba11

03-24-2022, 01:04 PM

For one season, '96, Penny was on a level with Pippen as a second option. I'll grant that. The next season, Shaq left.

Payton was the best player on the Sonics. Pippen >> Kemp.

Pippen >> Houston Drexler

DRob / TD in vs Pip in 98 is valid.

No one thought Pippen was anywhere near Penny and Penny outplayed him in 2 playoff series

And Kemp dominated Pippen in the Finals after carrying the Sonics in the WCF - Krause begging the Sonics to take Pippen for Kemp

And Drexler was always better than Pippen, especially in 95' - he also had 2 Finals runs as 1st option.. the best players in the 90's made the Finals as 1st option (Shaq, Hakeem, MJ, Ewing, Drexler, Barkley, Malone)

Phoenix

03-24-2022, 02:37 PM

Pippen averaged less ppg and apg than most 90's sidekicks and everyone's best was better than his

Go through all 29 teams in the 90's and write down the player and PPG/APG of the 'second option/sidekick' for each team. Scottie in the first threepeat averaged 20ppg on 50% and 6.5apg. His highest PPG/APG in that period was 21/7 in 1992, so I expect 'most' sidekicks to have higher numbers than that per your daily claims.

John8204

03-24-2022, 03:10 PM

Bosh (33-49)
Wade (43-39)
Davis (33-49)
Kyrie (33-49)
Love (40-42)

Tell me which of those players took a team to back to back final's (Jason Kidd) or were Hall of Famers (George Gervin) before playing with Dirk or MJ. Michael Jordan didn't have great players because when they brought in a top 75 all-timer in his prime (33), Jordan's diva actions pushed him out of the league. When great players came to play with Larry Bird they didn't retire a year later they won titles (Archibald, Walton). Dirk worked hard and built up his team and won a ring. Which is great for Dirk but he played with Nash and Kidd players move around blaming Lebron because he didn't do it the Jordan way is dumb. The Jordan way was find a bunch of insecure role players with issues and spend years working around them and then wait out all the dynasties.

Part of why I rank George Mikan so high is he's the one guy to win multiple titles with no top-75 help. Lebron takes the guys nobody can build a championship team around and he adjusts his game to win a ring. Does that make him better than Jordan...well that's debatable. But rather than look at the discussion with sobriety and nuance we get threads like this.

3ba11

03-24-2022, 03:27 PM

Go through all 29 teams in the 90's and write down the player and PPG/APG of the 'second option/sidekick' for each team. Scottie highest PPG/APG in that period was 21/7 in 1992, so I expect 'most' sidekicks to have higher numbers than that per your daily claims.

Terry Porter averaged 21/7 on 52% during the 92' Playoffs (Finals run) with 2.2 TO's (47% threes on 4 attempts)..

That's better than Pippen ever played and Porter did this again in the 90' Playoffs (another Finals run), except he shot 39% from deep and 46% fg overall.

Again, that's better than Pippen ever played and Porter is the worst sidekick that MJ faced in the Finals.

KJ averaged 24/12 in the 89' Playoffs (WCF) and 21/11 in 90' - this included the upset of Magic's 1-seeded Lakers.. KJ also averaged 27 ppg as 1st option over Barkley in both the 94' & 95' Playoffs.

We can go on and on with even better examples of Penny's best playoff runs or Kemp (nearly won FMVP from MJ), or Tim Hardaway's elite scoring/assist standard.. 96' Payton dominated Hakeem's back-to-back champs with 25/8 on 52% (44% threes on 6 attempts)

Worthy was #1 option over Kareem/Magic on their B2B champion teams in 87' and 88' (24 on 57% in 87' Playoffs)... He averaged 30 on 62% in the 87' WCF and won 88' FMVP

All of this is superior to Pippen - Pippen is the only guy that wasn't a threat for elite production and was therefore left alone... He was unguarded, so only Jordan faced maximum defensive attention (carried scoring load).. Everyone else had equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention for entire playoff runs, so they didn't always face maximum defensive attention like MJ (inflated stats compared to MJ).

Phoenix

03-24-2022, 04:22 PM

Terry Porter averaged 21/7 on 52% during the 92' Playoffs (Finals run) with 2.2 TO's (47% threes on 4 attempts)..

That's better than Pippen ever played and Porter did this again in the 90' Playoffs (another Finals run), except he shot 39% from deep and 46% fg overall.

Again, that's better than Pippen ever played and Porter is the worst sidekick that MJ faced in the Finals.

KJ averaged 24/12 in the 89' Playoffs (WCF) and 21/11 in 90' - this included the upset of Magic's 1-seeded Lakers.. KJ also averaged 27 ppg as 1st option over Barkley in both the 94' & 95' Playoffs.

We can go on and on with even better examples of Penny's best playoff runs or Kemp (nearly won FMVP from MJ), or Tim Hardaway's elite scoring/assist standard.. 96' Payton dominated Hakeem's back-to-back champs with 25/8 on 52% (44% threes on 6 attempts)

Worthy was #1 option over Kareem/Magic on their B2B champion teams in 87' and 88' (24 on 57% in 87' Playoffs)... He averaged 30 on 62% in the 87' WCF and won 88' FMVP

All of this is superior to Pippen - Pippen is the only guy that wasn't a threat for elite production and was therefore left alone... He was unguarded, so only Jordan faced maximum defensive attention (carried scoring load).. Everyone else had equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention for entire playoff runs, so they didn't always face maximum defensive attention like MJ (inflated stats compared to MJ).

You're slacking. Terry Porter averaged 16ppg in the 92 finals, Pippen averaged 21. What Porter averaged over the entire 92 run is irrelevant because you're saying he outscored Pippen as a sidekick and in the series they played in, Pippen outscored him by 5ppg. For the season Porter averaged 18.1ppg. So Pippen outscored him in the finals, and in season PPG. For the rest of the bolded, what were the PPG averages in the series they played against the Bulls? If they're lower than what Pippen did, then your point about what they did in other series is irrelevant. KJ in the 89 playoffs? Irrelevant, he scored 17ppg in the 93 finals. But he was injured right? Ok, then Thunder Dan outscored Scottie then. Nope, 17ppg for him too. Pippen in the 93 finals? 21ppg and 8apg. Oh wait, maybe KJ out-assisted Pippen in the 93 finals.........6.5apg for KJ? Oh, whoops.

You didn't answer the question and your inability to do so exposes you. List all 27 teams in, let's say, 92. I want the scoring PPG of every second option. Pippen averaged 21ppg, so I expect the 'majority' of second options to exceed that number. This is your claim, so I want to see it backed up with PPG averages of all 2nd options and not cherry-picked seasons or series that have nothing to do with whether they outscored Scottie in a head to head playoff series. But I'll help you out, in 92 Scottie was 14th in scoring at 21ppg. So on that basis, if he was one of the top 20 scorers in the league overall, it stands to reason that 'most' sidekicks did not outscore him. The only 'sidekicks' that outscored Pippen in 92, if you want to call them that, were Hardaway and Richmond. Everyone else with higher PPG were all their teams undisputed first option.

Carry on.

3ba11

03-24-2022, 05:23 PM

You're slacking. Terry Porter averaged 16ppg in the 92 finals, Pippen averaged 21. What Porter averaged over the entire 92 run is irrelevant

Except that's precisely what your prior post requested from me

You asked me to find sidekicks that averaged 21/7 or better for a playoff run, so I responded by showing that the worst sidekick Jordan faced in the Finals (Porter) had 2 Finals runs that were better than Pippen ever played.

You were simply wrong because you've been ignoring the historical record that everyone's best is better than Pippen's, even Horry's (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?499833-Comparing-Pippen-s-6-Finals-performances-to-peak-Horry-performance-(95-Finals))..

Phoenix

03-24-2022, 05:28 PM

Except that's precisely what your prior post requested from me

You asked me to find sidekicks that averaged 21/7 or better for a playoff run, so I responded by showing that the worst sidekick Jordan faced in the Finals (Porter) had 2 Finals runs that were better than Pippen ever played.

You were simply wrong because you've been ignoring the historical record that everyone's best is better than Pippen's, even Horry's (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?499833-Comparing-Pippen-s-6-Finals-performances-to-peak-Horry-performance-(95-Finals))..

You realize my post is like....halfway up the page, yeah? Are you trolling or a retarded liar who can't comprehend? Or more likely.....both.

Go through all 29 teams in the 90's and write down the player and PPG/APG of the 'second option/sidekick' for each team. Scottie in the first threepeat averaged 20ppg on 50% and 6.5apg. His highest PPG/APG in that period was 21/7 in 1992, so I expect 'most' sidekicks to have higher numbers than that per your daily claims.

Where do you see 'for a playoff run'? 21/7 are the numbers Pippen averaged for the 92 SEASON.

Don't twist it. Terry Porter averaged 17ppg in the 92 finals. Pippen averaged 21ppg. When they faced off against each other, Pippen outscored him. What Porter did against John Stockton in the prior round is irrelevant.

Carry on.

Phoenix

03-24-2022, 05:34 PM

You didn't answer the question and your inability to do so exposes you. List all 27 teams in, let's say, 92. I want the scoring PPG of every second option. Pippen averaged 21ppg, so I expect the 'majority' of second options to exceed that number. This is your claim, so I want to see it backed up with PPG averages of all 2nd options and not cherry-picked seasons or series that have nothing to do with whether they outscored Scottie in a head to head playoff series. But I'll help you out, in 92 Scottie was 14th in scoring at 21ppg. So on that basis, if he was one of the top 20 scorers in the league overall, it stands to reason that 'most' sidekicks did not outscore him. The only 'sidekicks' that outscored Pippen in 92, if you want to call them that, were Hardaway and Richmond. Everyone else with higher PPG were all their teams undisputed first option.

Carry on.

3ball?

27 teams. Second option season PPG for all teams in 1992. You having a bit of trouble over there?

3ba11

03-24-2022, 05:43 PM

You realize my post is like....halfway up the page, yeah? Are you trolling or a retarded liar who can't comprehend? Or more likely.....both.

Where do you see 'for a playoff run'? 21/7 are the numbers Pippen averaged for the 92 SEASON.

Don't twist it. Terry Porter averaged 17ppg in the 92 finals. Pippen averaged 21ppg. When they faced off against each other, Pippen outscored him. What Porter did against John Stockton in the prior round is irrelevant.

Carry on.

Porter was probably the 2nd best player in those entire playoffs and had thoroughly dominated everyone...... until MJ locked him down in the Finals (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MuSGY5Gnfro) and the Bulls really focused on him.

Porter was a threat for top-level dominance as Stockton found out in those WCF, so he commanded defensive attention, while Pippen was left unguarded and lived off MJ or system

Pippen wasn't a threat to dominate or take over like Porter, so his weaker numbers were always baked into the cake - MJ was the only dominant threat, so he faced all the attention - ONLY jordan faced maximum defensive attention because ONLY jordan was forced to carry the load by a non-go-to sidekick..

Bottom line: Pippen's peak of 21/7 rolled over to the playoffs, where it's the worst peak of any sidekick, by far.. He's the only guy that couldn't dominate

Phoenix

03-24-2022, 05:45 PM

Porter was probably the 2nd best player in those entire playoffs and had thoroughly dominated everyone...... until MJ locked him down in the Finals (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MuSGY5Gnfro) and the Bulls really focused on him.

Porter was a threat for top-level dominance as Stockton found out in those WCF, so he commanded defensive attention, while Pippen was left unguarded and lived off MJ or system

Pippen wasn't a threat to dominate or take over like Porter, so his weaker numbers were always baked into the cake - MJ was the only dominant threat, so he faced all the attention - ONLY jordan faced maximum defensive attention because ONLY jordan was forced to carry the load by a non-go-to sidekick..

Second best player eh? So if Porter was the 2nd best player in the playoffs( behind MJ I assume you mean), then you're saying Porter was better than Ewing and Drexler, MJ's chief opponents in the 92 playoffs. Do you actually take like......5 seconds to consider the implications of what you say?

92 Finals:
Pippen 21ppg
Porter 17ppg

'Terry Porter outscored Pippen in other series except the one they played against each other'.

A 5 year old would counter the bullshit you're saying. Try harder.

3ba11

03-24-2022, 05:47 PM

92 Finals

Pippen 21ppg
Porter 17ppg

'Terry Porter outscored Pippen in other series except the one they played against each other'.

A 5 year old would counter the bullshit you're saying. Try harder.

^^^ they didn't guard each other and that's a function of defensive coverage.. Porter was a go-to player that could dominate and Pippen wasn't

It's clear that Pippen can't play as well as Porter or any other sidekick - everyone's best was a few dimensions better than Pippen's, even Horry's

Phoenix

03-24-2022, 05:47 PM

3ball?

27 teams. Second option season PPG for all teams in 1992. You having a bit of trouble over there?

Ahem......

3ba11

03-24-2022, 05:51 PM

Ahem......

All the good players were elite go-to scorers or 20/10 guys

Pippen was neither and had less ppg and apg than everyone

Phoenix

03-24-2022, 05:51 PM

^^^ they didn't guard each other and that's a function of defensive coverage

It's clear that Pippen can't play as well as Porter or any other sidekick - they're best was a few dimensions better than Pippen's, even Horry's

That was never your initial criteria. Here's a fun fact, in the 92 series against the Cavs Scottie outscored Brad Daughtery and Mark Price, the Cavs two primary scorers. As 2nd option.

Phoenix

03-24-2022, 05:51 PM

All the good players were elite go-to scorers or 20/10 guys

Pippen was neither and had less ppg and apg than everyone

27 teams. Second option season PPG for all teams in 1992. I want to see Pippen's less PPG than 'everyone'. Having trouble?

3ba11

03-24-2022, 05:53 PM

That was never your initial criteria. Here's a fun fact, in the 92 series against the Cavs Scottie, as 2nd option, outscored Brad Daughtery and Mark Price, the Cavs two primary scorers. As 2nd option.

Porter played better than Pippen ever did and he did it numerous times.. Who cares about a series that they didn't guard each other and Porter's superior threat faced defensive attention and couldn't live off the goat scorer

3ba11

03-24-2022, 05:54 PM

27 teams. Second option season PPG for all teams in 1992. I want to see Pippen's less PPG than 'everyone'. Having trouble?

Pippen had the lowest peak of any 90's sidekick and he's the only guy that never dominated

You don't seem to understand that and keep repeating the same thing

When did Pippen achieve elite stats in a meaningful series or dominate... ever?

Phoenix

03-24-2022, 05:56 PM

Porter played better than Pippen ever did and he did it numerous times.. Who cares about a series that they didn't guard each other and Porter's superior threat faced defensive attention and couldn't live off the goat scorer

Pippen outscored his opposing SF( the guy guarding him and vice versa) in 3 of 4 series in the 92 playoffs. That would be Glen Rice, Mike Saunders, and Jerome Kersey. The one exception was X-man against the Knicks. We can go anyway you want to.

Phoenix

03-24-2022, 05:58 PM

Pippen had the lowest peak of any 90's sidekick and he's the only guy that never dominated

You don't seem to understand that and keep repeating the same thing

When did Pippen achieve elite stats in a meaningful series or dominate... ever?

As are you. Repeating the same statement and I'm asking you to list all the 2nd option PPG to back up that statement. Which you've failed to do.

27 teams. Second option season PPG for all teams in 1992. I want to see Pippen's less PPG than 'everyone'.

Phoenix

03-24-2022, 06:00 PM

Porter played better than Pippen ever did and he did it numerous times.. Who cares about a series that they didn't guard each other and Porter's superior threat faced defensive attention and couldn't live off the goat scorer

Thoughts on Scottie outscoring Brad Daughtery and Mark Price in their 92 playoffs matchup? Or are you sticking with 'bu bu but they didn't guard each other' because your 'Scottie was outscored by everyone!' bullshit has been easily shot to hell?

3ba11

03-24-2022, 06:02 PM

Pippen outscored his opposing SF( the guy guarding him and vice versa) in 3 of 4 series in the 92 playoffs. That would be Glen Rice, Mike Saunders, and Jerome Kersey. The one exception was X-man against the Knicks. We can go anyway you want to.

He nearly derailed the repeat with his choke against X-Man - the historical record shows that anytime a series was close or lost, it was Pippen's poor play that caused it (89' ECF, 90' ECF, 92' ECSF, 98' ECF, 98' Finals, among others)

And the fact that you're only referencing 92' shows how weak Pippen was - his peak was barely competing with other sidekicks, while most of his career (88-90', 93', 96-03') is a laughing stock if we actually look at how he played in the playoffs

3ba11

03-24-2022, 06:06 PM

Thoughts on Scottie outscoring Brad Daughtery and Mark Price in their 92 playoffs matchup? Or are you sticking with 'bu bu but they didn't guard each other' because your 'Scottie was outscored by everyone!' bullshit has been easily shot to hell?

You're making my point - Pippen almost never outscored the opposing 1st option, while everyone else's sidekicks did routinely.... because they were dominant, while Pippen is the only sidekick that wasn't

Btw, Lebron is the only guy in history with sidekicks that demolished league MVP's or FMVP's - Bosh outplayed 11' Rose... Kyrie outplayed Curry .. Wade outplayed fmvp Dirk, and AD dominated Jokic

Phoenix

03-24-2022, 06:08 PM

He nearly derailed the repeat with his choke against X-Man - the historical record shows that anytime a series was close or lost, it was Pippen's poor play that caused it (89' ECF, 90' ECF, 92' ECSF, 98' ECF, 98' Finals, among others)

And the fact that you're only referencing 92' shows how weak Pippen was - his peak was barely competing with other sidekicks, while most of his career (88-90', 93', 96-03') is a laughing stock if we actually look at how he played in the playoffs

Scottie in the 91 playoffs:

2nd highest PPG in the finals over Magic and Worthy
2nd highest PPG in the ECFs over Microwave, Isiah and Dumars
2nd highest PPG in the ECSFs over Hersey Hawkins
2md highest PPG in the first round over the 'first option' Ewing

3ball: but but but they didn't guard each other!!!!!

Phoenix

03-24-2022, 06:11 PM

You're making my point - Pippen almost never outscored the opposing 1st option, while everyone else's sidekicks did routinely.... because they were dominant, while Pippen is the only sidekick that wasn't

Outscored Ewing, Magic, Worthy, Isiah in 91.

So you're basically saying that Scottie should have been able to outscore the opposing team's first option. So you want the Bulls to basically have the two highest scorers in every series. And you think that helps MJ's GOAT case? :yaohappy:

3ba11

03-24-2022, 06:12 PM

Scottie in the 91 playoffs:

2nd highest PPG in the finals over Magic and Worthy
2nd highest PPG in the ECFs over Microwave, Isiah and Dumars
2nd highest PPG in the ECSFs over Hersey Hawkins
2md highest PPG in the first round over the 'first option' Ewing

3ball: but but but they didn't guard each other!!!!!

That's what Klay, Rip Hamilton, Parker and Pau did - lesser-tier sidekicks outscore the opposing 2nd option about 75% of the time on a winning title run

Otoh, the top tier sidekicks like Kareem, Curry, Kobe, Wade, Kyrie, or AD routinely outscore the opposing #1 option, which the lesser sidekicks Klay or Pippen almost never do

3ba11

03-24-2022, 06:16 PM

Pippen wasn't guarded because his peak capability was low and therefore wasn't a threat to take over - the only sidekick that couldn't dominate

Phoenix

03-24-2022, 06:16 PM

Scottie in the 93 playoffs:

Outscored KJ and Majerle by 4ppg in the finals
Outscored Starks by 7ppg in the ECFs
Outscored Brad Daugherty, Nance and Price in ECSFs

3ball: :rant:rant:rant:rant

Phoenix

03-24-2022, 06:18 PM

That's what Klay, Rip Hamilton, Parker and Pau did - lesser-tier sidekicks outscore the opposing 2nd option about 75% of the time on a winning title run

Otoh, the top tier sidekicks like Kareem, Curry, Kobe, Wade, Kyrie, or AD routinely outscore the opposing #1 option, which the lesser sidekicks Klay or Pippen almost never do

:sleeping

Your premise is 'everyone outscored Pippen'. You're wrong.

Phoenix

03-24-2022, 06:19 PM

Pippen wasn't guarded because his peak capability was low and therefore wasn't a threat to take over - the only sidekick that couldn't dominate

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/67/91/1b/67911b91af62338cfe3f782fb4ead0ff.gif

3ba11

03-24-2022, 06:21 PM

Outscored Ewing, Magic, Worthy, Isiah in 91.

So you're basically saying that Scottie should have been able to outscore the opposing team's first option. So you want the Bulls to basically have the two highest scorers in every series. And you think that helps MJ's GOAT case? :yaohappy:

Porter, KJ, Kemp, Payton, Stockton, Penny and every 90's sidekick achieved elite scoring or assists that took over series, and Pippen never did

The worst sidekick that Jordan ever faced in the Finals had better playoff runs in 90' and 92' than Pippen ever did

Phoenix

03-24-2022, 06:22 PM

That's what Klay, Rip Hamilton, Parker and Pau did - lesser-tier sidekicks outscore the opposing 2nd option about 75% of the time on a winning title run

So you're saying the Bulls faced a number of teams with lesser-tier sidekicks. No wonder they went 6-0,weak competition. Your implications, not mine.

Phoenix

03-24-2022, 06:22 PM

Porter, KJ, Kemp, Payton, Stockton, Penny and every 90's sidekick achieved elite scoring or assists that took over series, and Pippen never did

The worst sidekick that Jordan ever faced in the Finals had better playoff runs in 90' and 92' than Pippen ever did

But not a better series when they played each other.

:hammertime::hammertime:

If Pippen had series where he 'took over', that lessens MJ's GOAT case, not helps it. Idiot.:oldlol:

3ba11

03-24-2022, 06:23 PM

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/67/91/1b/67911b91af62338cfe3f782fb4ead0ff.gif

You haven't responded to anything about Pippen's inferiority

Pippen never dominated like every other 90's sidekick did and has the lowest peak ppg and/or apg of any 90's sidekick

Pippen is the only sidekick that was never a 1b and was carried in every series

Response?

Not 21/7 I hope

Phoenix

03-24-2022, 06:25 PM

You haven't responded to anything

I'm still waiting for your list of second option PPG in 92. Just one season. Been over an hour now.... :confusedshrug:

Phoenix

03-24-2022, 06:28 PM

Response?

Not 21/7 I hope

21/7 over a season, while you jerk off to Terry Porter dropping 26 on John Stockton's head in a 7 game series. :yaohappy:

Responded.

Phoenix

03-24-2022, 06:31 PM

Man I never self-congratulate, but the L's 3ball has taken over the last hour or so. :lol

Poor chap.... a request for sidekick PPGs in a season. Unanswered. Tons of examples of Pip outscoring either first or 2nd options during the first 3peat. 3balls reply :cry::cry: but they didn't guard each other :cry:

I feel like I should be arrested for this kind of beatdown.

3ba11

03-24-2022, 06:32 PM

I'm still waiting for your list of second option PPG in 92. Just one season. Been over an hour now.... :confusedshrug:

I'm waiting for you to show me where Pippen dominated in the playoffs and played as well as ANY sidekick's best

Show me where he played as well as Kemp in the 96' Finals, or KJ's many dominations or Payton or Stockton or Worthy or Penny

Show me where he was anywhere near those guys

Actually, I'll make it simple - show me where he played as well as X-Man in the 87' WCF against the Lakers (25/9/4).. . This is the same X-Man that destroyed Pippen in 92'

Phoenix

03-24-2022, 06:41 PM

I'm waiting for you to show me where Pippen dominated in the playoffs and played as well as ANY sidekick's best

Show me where he played as well as Kemp in the 96' Finals, or KJ's many dominations or Payton or Stockton or Worthy or Penny

Show me where he was anywhere near those guys

Actually, I'll make it simple - show me where he played as well as X-Man in the 87' WCF against the Lakers (25/9/4).. This is the same X-Man that destroyed Pippen in 92'

Done so, and plenty of times. Because you refuse to see it is irrelevant.

Show you where he played as well as X-man in 87? Well let's see:

91:

vs Sixers 23/9/6
vs Pistons 22/8/5
vs Lakers 21/9/7

92:

vs Blazers 21/8/8
vs Cavs 20/11/6
Vs Heat 24/6/7

93:

vs Suns 21/9/8

The problem, at some point someone told you that 'elite' production is whatever you decide it to be or in this case, whatever arbitrary numbers you want to use that disqualifies Pippen. I have news for you.....

I'll make this simple...show me where Scottie between 91-98 scored 10ppg like Stockton did in the 98 finals.

NBAGOAT

03-24-2022, 06:42 PM

I'm waiting for you to show me where Pippen dominated in the playoffs and played as well as ANY sidekick's best

Show me where he played as well as Kemp in the 96' Finals, or KJ's many dominations or Payton or Stockton or Worthy or Penny

Show me where he was anywhere near those guys

Actually, I'll make it simple - show me where he played as well as X-Man in the 87' WCF against the Lakers (25/9/4).. When was he 20/10 like X-Man or any good player of the 80's or 90's.. . This is the same X-Man that destroyed Pippen in 92'

that comes out to only 30/4.6 per 100. Pippen did 33/7 per 100 for the 94 playoffs on similar efficiency for a whole playoff run not just one series lol. He put up 28.5/8 in 91 on better efficiency, 3.5apg certainly make up more than 1.5 points. 92/97 are very good too and most importantly you cant even put mcdaniels defense in the same convo as pippen's.

we have rapm that goes back to 97, pippen is more impactful than a lot of good 1st options, not just 2nds. it's not too meaningful in a small sample where you only play 4 teams but show he was definitely impacting games

Phoenix

03-24-2022, 06:44 PM

that comes out to only 30/4.6 per 100. Pippen did 33/7 per 100 for the 94 playoffs on similar efficiency for a whole playoff run not just one series lol. He put up 28.5/8 in 91 on better efficiency, 3.5apg certainly make up more than 1.5 points. 92/97 are very good too and most importantly you cant even put mcdaniels defense in the same convo as pippen's.

we have rapm that goes back to 97, pippen is better than a lot of good 1st options, not just 2nds. it's not too meaningful in a small sample where you only play 4 teams but show he was definitely impacting games

See, you're replying seriously. You only need to take the bullshit he says and turn it right back at him. No rapm and per 100s and all that jazz. None of that he's going to pay attention to anyway.

NBAGOAT

03-24-2022, 06:47 PM

See, you're replying seriously. You only need to take the bullshit he says and turn it right back at him. No rapm and per 100s and all that jazz. None of that he's going to pay attention to anyway.

yea i'm rusty with handling 3ball. Ik he's used per 100 before lol.

SouBeachTalents

03-24-2022, 06:48 PM

1991 FR
Pippen: 20/9/5/3 55%TS
Ewing: 17/10/2 47%TS

1991 ECSF
Pippen: 23/9/6 61%TS
Barkley: 26/10/5 67%TS

1991 ECF
Pippen: 22/8/5/3/2 56%TS
Isiah: 17/5/6 49%TS

1991 Finals
Pippen: 21/9/7 53%TS
Magic: 19/8/12 61%TS

1992 ECF
Pippen: 20/11/6/2/2 54%TS
Price: 19/2/5 61%TS

1992 Finals
Pippen: 21/8/8 56%TS
Drexler: 25/8/5 52%TS

1993 ECSF
Pippen: 18/6/5/3 51%TS
Price: 14/2/6 64%TS

1993 ECF
Pippen: 23/7/4 57%TS
Ewing: 26/11/3 57%TS

1996 FR
Pippen: 20/11/7/3/2 64%TS
Mourning: 18/6/1 57%TS

1997 FR
Pippen: 17/9/3 50%TS
Webber: 16/8/3 70%TS

1997 ECSF
Pippen: 22/6/6 52%TS
Blaylock: 21/7/6 58%TS

1997 ECF
Pippen: 17/5/3 53%TS
Hardaway: 17/5/6 49%TS

1997 Finals
Pippen: 20/8/4/2/2 54%TS
Malone: 24/11/4 49%TS

1998 FR
Pippen: 18/7/6 53%TS
Williams: 7/14/2 44%TS

1998 ECSF
Pippen: 18/7/5/3 54%TS
Rice: 23/5/2 52%TS

1998 ECF
Pippen: 17/8/5 46%TS
Reggie: 17/2/2 59%TS

Keep in mind, this is the opposing teams FIRST option :lol

3ba11

03-24-2022, 06:49 PM

Done so, and plenty of times. Because you refuse to see it is irrelevant.

Show you where he played as well as X-man in 87? Well let's see:

91:

vs Sixers 23/9/6
vs Pistons 22/8/5
vs Lakers 21/9/7

92:

vs Blazers 21/8/8
vs Cavs 20/11/6
Vs Heat 24/6/7

93:

vs Suns 21/9/8
vs

The problem, at some point someone told you that 'elite' production is whatever you decide it to be or in this case, whatever arbitrary numbers you want to use that disqualifies Pippen. I have news for you.....

None of those series are "elite" production that compares to Terry Porter's 26/5/8 on 52% in the 92' WCF (53% three-pointers on 6 attempts).

So the worst sidekick Jordan faced in the Finals was more dominant than Pippen, while guys like Kemp, Stockton, KJ, and Payton were more dominant than Porter and Pippen.

Pippen averaged 23 once outside the 1st Round in a series where his teammate carried the scoring load - he never achieved elite scoring or co-led a series like every other sidekick - he's the only sidekick that was more of an athlete and dunker like Horry and not a go-to elite scorer like every other sidekick.

When Worthy faced peak X-Man in 87', he destroyed him with 30 on 62% and swept him .. When Pippen faced old X-Man in 92', he got destroyed and nearly derailed a dynasty

There's a million hardcore examples like this that demonstrate Pippen inferiority - there's the Horry-gamescore example and also Pippen was drastically outplayed by Miller against the exact same playoff opponent 5 times (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?493657-Reggie-Miller-and-Pippen-faced-the-same-opponent-in-the-playoffs-6-times) (even though Pippen's usage was higher).

All metrics show that Pippen's playoff production was a dimension below the "go-to" caliber of his more dominant and co-leading peers.. Every 90's sidekick was actually a 1b and elite, go-to scorer except Pippen.

Phoenix

03-24-2022, 06:57 PM

When Worthy faced peak X-Man in 87', he destroyed him with 30 on 62% and swept him .. When Pippen faced old X-Man in 92', he got destroyed and nearly derailed a dynasty

Ah, so Worthy destroyed a 'peak' rookie X-man. Swept him on his own.....the league MVP Magic dropping 20/11/7 and Kareem doing 19/7 were innocent bystanders in the process.

An 'old man' X-man in 1992.....at the near retirement age of 28 and 5 months younger than the ancient Michael Jordan.

3ba11

03-24-2022, 06:58 PM

Ah, so Worthy destroyed a 'peak' rookie X-man. Swept him on his own.....the league MVP Magic dropping 20/11/7 and Kareem doing 19/7 were innocent bystanders in the process.

An 'old man' X-man in 1992.....at the near retirement age of 28 and 5 months younger than the ancient Michael Jordan.

None of the series that you posted are "elite" production that compares to Terry Porter's 26/5/8 on 52% in the 92' WCF (53% three-pointers on 6 attempts).. None of Pippen's runs match Porter's in 90' or 92'.

So the worst sidekick Jordan faced in the Finals was more dominant than Pippen, while guys like Kemp, Stockton, KJ, and Payton were more dominant than Porter and Pippen

Phoenix

03-24-2022, 07:00 PM

None of the series that you posted are "elite" production that compares to Terry Porter's 26/5/8 on 52% in the 92' WCF (53% three-pointers on 6 attempts).

So the worst sidekick Jordan faced in the Finals was more dominant than Pippen, while guys like Kemp, Stockton, KJ, and Payton were more dominant than Porter and Pippen

Oh, so back to repeating? Cool.

91:

vs Sixers 23/9/6
vs Pistons 22/8/5
vs Lakers 21/9/7

92:

vs Blazers 21/8/8
vs Cavs 20/11/6
Vs Heat 24/6/7

93:

vs Suns 21/9/8

Elite stats. Because I said so.

Kawhi_Why_Not

03-24-2022, 07:02 PM

But if Dirk went to another franchise and joined a super team and ended his career with lets say 3 rings, he would be viewed as much greater today. He would be viewed as a top 10 goat probably. Now he's barely top 20-25.

We shouldn't treat the NBA like it's the military anyway, you don't have to stick with the team that drafted you. Especially if you already won rings with that team like 14 kawhi, 16 lebron. But I would say Durant is pretty gutless for leaving OKC ringless and joining a dynasty.

3ba11

03-24-2022, 07:03 PM

Oh, so back to repeating? Cool.

91:

vs Sixers 23/9/6
vs Pistons 22/8/5
vs Lakers 21/9/7

92:

vs Blazers 21/8/8
vs Cavs 20/11/6
Vs Heat 24/6/7

93:

vs Suns 21/9/8

Elite stats. Because I said so.

Pippen averaged 25 against elite opposition and led the series like X-Man did ?

No . You failed to show an equivalent series for Pippen.

And when did Pippen play as well as Terry Porter's 26/5/8 on 52% in the 92' WCF (53% three-pointers on 6 attempts).

None of Pippen's runs match Porter's in 90' or 92', so the worst sidekick Jordan faced in the Finals was more dominant than Pippen, while guys like Kemp, Stockton, KJ, and Payton were more dominant than Porter and Pippen

Pippen averaged 23 once outside the 1st Round in a series where his teammate carried the scoring load - he never achieved elite scoring or co-led a series like every other sidekick - he's the only sidekick that was more of an athlete and dunker like Horry and not a go-to elite scorer like every other sidekick.

Every 90's sidekick was actually a 1b and go-to elite scorer except Pippen

Phoenix

03-24-2022, 07:08 PM

Pippen averaged 25 against elite opposition and led the series like X-Man did ?

No . You failed to show an equivalent series for Pippen.

And when did Pippen play as well as Terry Porter's 26/5/8 on 52% in the 92' WCF (53% three-pointers on 6 attempts).

None of Pippen's runs match Porter's in 90' or 92', so the worst sidekick Jordan faced in the Finals was more dominant than Pippen, while guys like Kemp, Stockton, KJ, and Payton were more dominant than Porter and Pippen

I showed series where he had higher rebounds and assists than X-man while scoring 1-2ppg less. You don't get to decide that '25 points' is the cut off for elite stat production either on its own merits, or in combination with the other major stat categories where he's getting like 9 rebounds and 8 assists, 2 steals and a block.

And that was with Michael Jordan on his team. Tell me....do you think X-man is averaging 25/9/4 in a series playing next to MJ? If not then what he averaged playing next to Tom Chambers is irrelevant.

Phoenix

03-24-2022, 07:12 PM

3ba11

03-24-2022, 07:20 PM

:oldlol:

3ball is going on about 'elite stats' when most of those numbers you posted are worse than the 'elite' stats of the X-man he's propping up. So 3ball, are we saying rookie X-man was at a higher level than some of the players above? Because you're using those 87 WCFs stats to say that about Pippen soooooooooooo :confusedshrug:

Teams play worse against great teams like the Bulls, aka water is wet..

And teams usually had 2 elite scoring threats that required defensive attention, and the Bulls only 1

So the heads-up stats mean nothing - the Bulls are the better team and will have advantages - the bottom line is that opposing sidekicks could dominate offensively, while Pippen wasn't a threat for elite ppg or apg and therefore was unguarded.. This put all defensive attention on Jordan - no one else had to defeat maximum defensive attention for an entire career because everyone had go-to teammates except Jordan.

Phoenix

03-24-2022, 08:02 PM

1)Teams play worse against great teams like the Bulls, aka water is wet..

2)And teams usually had 2 elite scoring threats that required defensive attention, and the Bulls only 1

3)So the heads-up stats mean nothing - the Bulls are the better team and will have advantages - the bottom line is that opposing sidekicks could dominate offensively, while Pippen wasn't a threat for elite ppg or apg and therefore was unguarded.. This put all defensive attention on Jordan - no one else had to defeat maximum defensive attention for an entire career because everyone had go-to teammates except Jordan.

1) Oh the Bulls are a great team now? All this time, per your 30k posts, I thought they were a one man carry job.

2) And yet there are countless examples of Pippen outscoring 2nd options in various playoff series. To which your rebuttal is to talk about what those 2nd options did in OTHER series. In the real world, we call this 'moving the goalposts'.

3) Ah I see, whatever stats Pippen achieved is strictly because he was unguarded. So Robert Horry, who averaged 10ppg during the 95 season and 13ppg for the playoffs, is a 'go to' elite option beyond whatever Pippen was because he scored 18ppg in a 4 game series where most of the defensive attention was on Hakeem scoring 33ppg and Drexler dropping 21. In the real world we call that 'delusional'.

ShawkFactory

03-24-2022, 08:07 PM

1) Oh the Bulls are a great team now? All this time, per your 30k posts, I thought they were a one man carry job.

2) And yet there are countless examples of Pippen outscoring 2nd options in various playoff series. To which your rebuttal is to talk about what those 2nd options did in OTHER series. In the real world, we call this 'moving the goalposts'.

3) Ah I see, whatever stats Pippen achieved is strictly because he was unguarded. So Robert Horry, who averaged 10ppg during the 95 season and 13ppg for the playoffs, is a 'go to' elite option beyond whatever Pippen was because he scored 18ppg in a 4 game series where most of the defensive attention was on Hakeem scoring 33ppg and Drexler dropping 21. In the real world we call that 'delusional'.

This is probably the funniest part. Hakeem was getting literally every time he touched the ball and almost 50% of Horry's made baskets were 3s (he made 23 baskets in the entire series; that's the sample you're arguing against...23 made baskets). He was getting open looks all game long. To his credit he shot well but the Magic were basically giving it to him.

ArbitraryWater

03-24-2022, 08:07 PM

1991 fr
pippen: 20/9/5/3 55%ts
ewing: 17/10/2 47%ts

1991 ecsf
pippen: 23/9/6 61%ts
barkley: 26/10/5 67%ts

1991 ecf
pippen: 22/8/5/3/2 56%ts
isiah: 17/5/6 49%ts

1991 finals
pippen: 21/9/7 53%ts
magic: 19/8/12 61%ts

1992 ecf
pippen: 20/11/6/2/2 54%ts
price: 19/2/5 61%ts

1992 finals
pippen: 21/8/8 56%ts
drexler: 25/8/5 52%ts

1993 ecsf
pippen: 18/6/5/3 51%ts
price: 14/2/6 64%ts

1993 ecf
pippen: 23/7/4 57%ts
ewing: 26/11/3 57%ts

1996 fr
pippen: 20/11/7/3/2 64%ts
mourning: 18/6/1 57%ts

1997 fr
pippen: 17/9/3 50%ts
webber: 16/8/3 70%ts

1997 ecsf
pippen: 22/6/6 52%ts
blaylock: 21/7/6 58%ts

1997 ecf
pippen: 17/5/3 53%ts
hardaway: 17/5/6 49%ts

1997 finals
pippen: 20/8/4/2/2 54%ts
malone: 24/11/4 49%ts

1998 fr
pippen: 18/7/6 53%ts
williams: 7/14/2 44%ts

1998 ecsf
pippen: 18/7/5/3 54%ts
rice: 23/5/2 52%ts

1998 ecf
pippen: 17/8/5 46%ts
reggie: 17/2/2 59%ts

keep in mind, this is the opposing teams first option :lol

YOOOOOOOOO............

:lebronamazed::lebronamazed:

Phoenix

03-24-2022, 08:16 PM

This is probably the funniest part. Hakeem was getting literally every time he touched the ball and almost 50% of Horry's made baskets were 3s (he made 23 baskets in the entire series; that's the sample you're arguing against...23 made baskets). He was getting open looks all game long. To his credit he shot well but the Magic were basically giving it to him.

A look under the hood of the 95 finals shows that Horry scored 18ppg on 43%, numbers that 3nutball crucifies Pippen for but is glorified here because he achieved a high GmSc, moreso on account of good per game rebounding( 10), steals( 3), and blocks( 2.3). Scoring, which is all 3ball talks about when it comes to 'elite' production......nothing about 18ppg and 43% shooting is elite, and taken into consideration your point that Hakeem's gravity on the block created tons of good looks for the Rockets shooters. From 3 Kenny Smith shot 38%, Cassell shot 47%, Mario Elie shot 57%!

Phoenix

03-24-2022, 09:18 PM

And outscoring the opposing 2nd option is standard for winning teams or defensive teams, yet Pippen still couldn't do it about 1/3 of the time during title runs and half the series in his career -

Which means 2/3 of the time he did.

3ba11

03-24-2022, 09:27 PM

Which means 2/3 of the time he did.

That isn't good for a winning team or defensive team

Unlike good sidekicks, Pippen rarely outscored opposing 1st options and never dominated.. 1 year out of an entire career doesn't make Pippen a good scorer - you claim that 2005 didn't make Hughes a good player, yet now you're trying to do the same for Pippen's 91' (and trying to stretch it to 92' while avoiding the X-Man issue)..

Other than 91' and some of 92', Pippen was a bad sidekick - you guys harping on those years makes my point.. Pippen had the lowest advanced stats ever for a winning sidekick in the 93' Playoffs, while wetting the bed from 88-90' and 94-03' - this includes low ppg and below league-average true shooting for every year except 89-91'. He has many historic chokes and was 5th option in the 4th quarter behind Kukoc, MJ, Kerr and Paxson.. Guys like Stockton were literally Jordan in the clutch (a close 2nd to MJ in clutch points for 97' Playoffs), while Pippen is literally last behind role players like Ostertag

Phoenix

03-24-2022, 09:38 PM

That isn't good for a winning team

Unlike good sidekicks, Pippen rarely outscored opposing 1st options and never dominated.. 1 year out of an entire career doesn't make Pippen a good scorer - you claim that 2005 didn't make Hughes a good player, yet now you're trying to do the same for Pippen's 91' (and trying to stretch it to 92' while avoiding the X-Man issue)..

Other than 91' and some of 92', Pippen was a bad sidekick - you guys harping on those years makes my point.. Pippen had the lowest advanced stats ever for a winning sidekick in the 93' Playoffs, while wetting the bed from 88-90' and 94-03', including below league average true shooting for every year except 89-91'. He has many historic chokes and was 5th option in the 4th quarter behind Kukoc, MJ, Kerr and Paxson.. Guys like Stockton were literally Jordan in the clutch (a close 2nd to MJ in clutch points for 97' Playoffs), while Pippen is literally last behind role players like Ostertag

According to who?Between 91 and 98, the Bulls never lost in the years MJ and Scottie played a full season together. 5 out of the 6 years they won 60 or more games, with a 72 win season that stood for 20 years amongst that. They literally couldn't win more than they did in those years, and your points about 88 to 90 are stupid because he was still on the rise. He was neither the first, or last, player to take 3-4 years to become an all-star level player. So your assertion that he should have outscored the opposing sidekick....what......100% of the time(??)......is a ridiculous standard you apply to no-one else. Scottie was better statistically in the first 3peat, that much is not for debate, but the 2nd half of the 90s didn't require him to equal his 91-93 output. To counter who? John Stockton dropping 10ppg? Jeff Hornacek? MJ himself had a statistical dropoff from the first 3peat, but they kept winning anyway. Which means what.....?

I made no claim about 2005 Larry Hughes. WTF are you babbling about you fukking lunatic? :oldlol: On the topic of avoidance, you plan on dropping that list of sidekick PPG from 1992 or you gonna keep tapdancing around the reality that Scottie was 14th in PPG that year and by extension one of the highest scoring 'sidekicks' in the league? That is literally objective fact, not bullshit speculation, spin, and conjecture.

Phoenix

03-24-2022, 10:07 PM

this includes low ppg and below league-average true shooting for every year except 89-91'.

Pippen's TS% compared to the league post 91:

92: Pippen 56%, league 53%
94: Pippen 54%, league 53%
95: Pippen 56%, league 54%
96: Pippen 55%, league 54%
97: Pippen 55%, league 54%
98: Pippen 53%, league 52%
99: Pippen 53%, league 51%
2000: Pippen 53%, league 52%
2001: Pippen 54%, league 52%

More bullshit lies on your end. Scottie was above league average for true shooting *literally* the entire decade besides 93.

3ba11

03-24-2022, 10:25 PM

. So your assertion that he should have outscored the opposing sidekick....what......100% of the time(??)......is a ridiculous standard you apply to no-one else.

The timeline of Pippen's career shows that he was propped up by dynasty chemistry (system player) - otherwise, he was a 14 ppg dunker that couldn't score (89' and 99')..

So the Bulls developed the best system/chemistry that allowed Pippen to outscore 2nd options at an average rate for a winning sidekick, but his low peak capability of any sidekick (22 ppg outside the 1st Round) and worst-ever efficiency, meant he wasn't a THREAT - every opponent had 2 threats capable of elite stats/domination except the Bulls, who only had Jordan, as Kenny Smith explains so ingeniously here (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4UF6Xx3F2Lo&t=01m54s).

Scottie was better statistically in the first 3peat, that much is not for debate

93' Pippen had the lowest PER, WS/48, BPM, VORP and TS in the playoffs of any winning sidekick, including 45% true shooting in the Finals with lower gamescore than Majerle, while letting rookie Dumas (4th option) get Kawhi's stats from the 14' (16 on 57%)..

Then he was destroyed by Ewing in the 94' Playoffs and wet the bed against the 95' Magic, while getting 17 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs and 11 ppg from 99-03' or 88-90'.

So Pippen was horrible every year if his playoff except 91' and 92' minus the X-Man debacle.. So barely anything.

. They literally couldn't win more than they did in those years

Because Jordan was winning chips with scoring champion amounts (unprecedented) and carrying the scoring load/defeating maximum defensive attention (unprecedented aside from 84' Bird, then Hakeem did it after MJ, along with Dirk, Duncan & Kobe, Kawhi).

3ba11

03-24-2022, 10:54 PM

Pippen's TS% compared to the league post 91:

92: Pippen 56%, league 53%
94: Pippen 54%, league 53%
95: Pippen 56%, league 54%
96: Pippen 55%, league 54%
97: Pippen 55%, league 54%
98: Pippen 53%, league 52%
99: Pippen 53%, league 51%
2000: Pippen 53%, league 52%
2001: Pippen 54%, league 52%

More bullshit lies on your end. Scottie was above league average for true shooting *literally* the entire decade besides 93.

Playoffs..

that's when a system's weaknesses actually get tested - his true shooting was below league-average for every year of his playoff career except 89-91'

Pippen's worst-ever efficiency (https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg) shows that he couldn't handle the 2nd option load and was only a 2nd option alongside Jordan..

Pippen's lowest peak capability and worst-ever efficiency made him the worst-scoring sidekick ever

3ba11

03-24-2022, 11:03 PM

Playoffs..

that's when a system's weaknesses actually get tested - his true shooting was below league-average for every year of his playoff career except 89-91'

Pippen's worst-ever efficiency (https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg) shows that he couldn't handle the 2nd option load and was only a 2nd option alongside Jordan..

Pippen's lowest peak capability (ppg or apg in a playoff series) and worst-ever efficiency made him the worst-scoring sidekick ever

I know this post was a gut punch Phoenix.. Breathe..
that's it.. you'll be okay.

Phoenix

03-25-2022, 04:03 AM

I know this post was a gut punch Phoenix.. Breathe..
that's it.. you'll be okay.

No, it was called going to sleep. Imagine thinking parroting the same shit I had retorted 5 hours ago ended this bullshit argument.:oldlol:

I already won this several pages back when you refused to list all the second option PPG in 1992. You've been tap dancing around that ever since, deflecting, repeating yourself, and then accusing me of doing so to take the focus off the fact that your unwillingness to address what I specifically asked was a major L and where you were crucified. You're otherwise being humored because you've had nothing new for offer for 3 pages, but that's on-brand. Most of your posts and threads are recycled bullshit.

So, you plan on dropping that list or you gonna tapdance around it some more? I'm giving you the chance to work on your typing skills and come up with some new content instead of the terabytes of rubbish you copy/paste on the daily. I dont want 'everyone scored more than Pippen' rhetoric. I want a list, 27 teams and the 2nd option PPG. Otherwise breathe, go out for air. You'll be ok

Phoenix

03-25-2022, 04:40 AM

Playoffs..

that's when a system's weaknesses actually get tested - h[B]is true shooting was below league-average for every year of his playoff career except 89-91'[

You didn't say 'playoffs' initially, but ok.....

92- Pippen 54%,league 53%
95- Pippen 55%, league 54%
2000- Pippen 52%, league 52%
2002-Pippen 58%,league 52%

3ball: 'Well actuallly I meant....

https://c.tenor.com/21TsdF0Ob_oAAAAM/michael-jackson-dancing.gif

Shut up liar.

GimmeThat

03-25-2022, 05:31 AM

it would've been a travesty if Lebron's super-team collusions stole Dirk's ring in 11'...... like he did KD in 12', Duncan in 13' or Curry in 16'.

At least the hoop gods didn't let him cheat Dirk out of his perfect organic ring in 2011 - that's how it's supposed to be done, so it's great that Lebron wasn't able to rob Dirk's hard work like he did everyone else.

Dirk escaped the fraud, but Lebron's collusions still killed a guy like Durant, who was the next MJ until Lebron robbed him in 2012.. Imagine KD leading Westbrick to a title in Year 3 - that's goat shit until Lebron ruined the natural competitive environment

say the comparison mirrored that of Peyton Manning vs. Tom Brady. Had Lebron stayed with the Cavaliers and racked up MVPs without championships, the public sentiment then had already been, if you're not going to win a championship with the organization, you are much better off leaving then for the public to continue to bash the organization for its failure in order to justify your value.

as hypothesis goes, people still have the curiosity to see it in action. generally, this idea applies to those who haven't woke, because somehow watching and seeing harm being done had been classified as being natural, when there's nothing natural about it.

as to the argument of storyline/narrative, somehow even when players behaved as true professionals in the press conference, they still receive criticism, because the criticizers think the athletes get paid too much, yet they do not place the responsibility on ownership, as the saying goes "the owners aren't the one on the court playing ball"

a nation that has grown to assassinate politicians, all while preaching democracy to others.

3ba11

03-25-2022, 06:35 PM

You didn't say 'playoffs' initially, but ok.....

92- Pippen 54%,league 53%
95- Pippen 55%, league 54%
2000- Pippen 52%, league 52%
2002-Pippen 58%,league 52%

3ball: 'Well actuallly I meant....

https://c.tenor.com/21TsdF0Ob_oAAAAM/michael-jackson-dancing.gif

Shut up liar.

Bruh, you're the one that's lying

Playoff true shooting

92' League Average.... 54.5%
92' Pippen................... 54.4%

95' League Average.... 55.1%
95' Pippen................... 54.9%

Pippen was below league average true shooting for his entire playoff career except 89-91' and 02', so 91' was the only year where he had any responsibility..

His worst-ever efficiency confirms that he couldn't handle the 2nd option load, and was only a 2nd option alongside the goat scorer to leave him unguarded

Sources:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1992.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1995.html

AussieSteve

03-25-2022, 06:54 PM

Watching this conversation between 3ball and Phoenix is like watching a car crash into a wall in slow motion. And then repeatedly watch the same crash over and over again from different angles.

Obviously 3ball is the car. Phoenix is the wall.

3ba11

03-26-2022, 12:57 AM

Phoenix

03-26-2022, 03:46 AM

Bruh, you're the one that's lying

Playoff true shooting

92' League Average.... 54.5%
92' Pippen................... 54.4%

95' League Average.... 55.1%
95' Pippen................... 54.9%

Pippen was below league average true shooting for his entire playoff career except 89-91' and 02', so 91' was the only year where he had any responsibility..

His worst-ever efficiency confirms that he couldn't handle the 2nd option load, and was only a 2nd option alongside the goat scorer to leave him unguarded

Sources:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1992.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1995.html

I must have looked at the wrong list a few times, which I can man up to, but at a .1 difference he was on-par rounded off which you do when the agenda suites. 54.5 to 54.4.....Pippen was below par!!!!! You're a clown.

He was also above league shooting in the 94 playoffs. I didn't include it previously because that wasn't a 'sidekick' year next to MJ.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1994.html league 51.6%
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html Pippen 52.1%

I'm still here bitch, and you're still wrong that he was below par every year except 89-91 and 02. :oldlol: Now....... go fetch my 92 sidekick PPG list, boy.

Phoenix

03-26-2022, 03:47 AM

3ba11

03-26-2022, 03:08 PM

Let the record show that 3ball is a bitch who ran from this post going back to the third page.

Source:
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?503108-Dirk-worked-so-hard-for-10-years-and-finally-figured-it-out-in-2011-but/page3

I answered that a long time ago but I'll do it again

you claim that 2005 didn't make Hughes a good player, yet now you're trying to do the same for Pippen's 91' playoffs (and trying to stretch it to 92' while avoiding the X-Man issue)..

Other than 91' and some of 92', Pippen was a bad sidekick - the stats show that clearly

3ba11

03-26-2022, 03:40 PM

Go through all 29 teams in the 90's and write down the player and PPG/APG of the 'second option/sidekick' for each team. Scottie in the first threepeat averaged 20ppg on 50% and 6.5apg. His highest PPG/APG in that period was 21/7 in 1992, so I expect 'most' sidekicks to have higher numbers than that per your daily claims.

92' Pippen < 05' Hughes, so cherry-picking a player's peak regular season makes my point that he was mostly aids.

Especially in the playoffs - Pippen had lower peak capability (ppg and apg) than all sidekicks in the playoffs outside the 1st Round.. He's the only sidekick incapable of elite ppg, apg or rpg... Most sidekicks were 20/10 guys (KJ, Payton, Kemp, Hardaway, etc).

Terry Porter averaged 26/5/8 several times on goat efficiency, including threes (curry-level threes)... Pippen is nowhere near this.

KJ averaged 27/5/9 in several series against Hakeem's champion Rockets and averaged 23/11 while upsetting Magic's 1 seed to make the 90' WCF

Penny, Payton and Kemp all reached far higher levels in ppg, rpg and apg for numerous series.

Pippen is the only sidekick that wasn't capable of elite production and wasn't a go-to player - every team had 2 elite scoring threats except the Bulls, so only Jordan faced maximum defensive attention (carried scoring load in playoffs and Finals of title run) until Hakeem did it in 94' and a few one-off's after that (Bird did it in 84').

ShawkFactory

03-26-2022, 03:42 PM

92' Pippen < 05' Hughes, so cherry-picking a player's peak regular season makes my point that he was mostly aids.

Especially in the playoffs - Pippen had lower peak capability (ppg and apg) than all sidekicks in the playoffs outside the 1st Round.

Terry Porter averaged 26/5/8 several times on goat efficiency, including threes (curry-level threes)... Pippen is nowhere near this.

KJ averaged 27/5/9 in several series against Hakeem's champion Rockets and averaged 23/11 while upsetting Magic's 1 seed to make the 90' WCF

Penny, Payton and Kemp all reached far higher levels in ppg, rpg and apg for numerous series.

Pippen is the only sidekick that wasn't capable of elite production and wasn't a go-to player - every team had 2 elite scoring threats except the Bulls, so only Jordan faced maximum defensive attention (carried scoring load in playoffs and Finals of title run) until Hakeem did it in 94' and a few one-off's after that (Bird did it in 84').

Im glad you say the most outlandish/stupid stuff first to spare people from having to read the rest of your novel :lol

3ba11

03-26-2022, 03:50 PM

Im glad you say the most outlandish/stupid stuff first to spare people from having to read the rest of your novel :lol

2005 Hughes... 22/5... 1st team defense
1992 Pippen.... 21/7... 1st team defense

Hughes fulfills your criteria for Pippen

anyone can play the cherry-picking game

Cherry-picking makes the other guy's point that the player in question mostly sucked, like Hughes and Pippen

Specifically, Pippen had the lowest peak capability (ppg, rpg, apg) of any 90's sidekick outside the 1st Round - everyone else was capable of elite production in 1 or more of these areas except Pippen..

Ultimately, most teams had 2 elite scoring threats except the Bulls, so only Jordan faced maximum defensive attention (carried scoring load in playoffs and Finals of title run) until Hakeem did it in 94' and a few one-off's after that (Bird did it in 84').

ShawkFactory

03-26-2022, 03:53 PM

2005 Hughes... 22/5... 1st team defense
1992 Pippen.... 21/7... 1st team defense

Hughes fulfills your criteria for Pippen

anyone can play the cherry-picking game

Cherry-picking makes the other guy's point that the player in question mostly sucked, like Hughes and Pippen

Specifically, Pippen had the lowest peak capability (ppg, rpg, apg) of any 90's sidekick outside the 1st Round - everyone else was capable of elite production in 1 or more of these areas except Pippen..

Ultimately, most teams had 2 elite scoring threats except the Bulls, so only Jordan faced maximum defensive attention (carried scoring load in playoffs and Finals of title run) until Hakeem did it in 94' and a few one-off's after that (Bird did it in 84').

In what way?

3ba11

03-26-2022, 04:02 PM

In what way?

Hughes had 1 or 2 viable seasons, just like Pippen, otherwise he was a bum

Pippen had 1 viable playoff run (91'), and it would've been 2 except for the X-Man debacle in 92' that nearly derailed the repeat.

Otherwise, Pippen was literally H-O-R-R-I-B-L-E for every other playoff run:

93' Pippen had the lowest PER, WS/48, BPM, VORP and TS in the playoffs of any winning sidekick - this includes 45% true shooting in the Finals with lower gamescore than Majerle - he also let 4th option Dumas nearly get Kawhi's stats from the 14' Finals(16 on 57%)..

Then he was destroyed by Ewing in the 94' Playoffs and wet the bed against the 95' Magic, while getting 17 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs and 11 ppg from 99-03' or 88-90'.

So Pippen was horrible every year except 91' and 92' minus the X-Man debacle.. So barely anything.

Ultimately, Pippen had the lowest peak capability (ppg, rpg, apg) of any 90's sidekick outside the 1st Round - everyone else was capable of elite production in 1 or more of these areas except Pippen..

Since most teams had 2 elite scoring threats except the Bulls, only Jordan faced maximum defensive attention (carried scoring load in playoffs and Finals of title run) until Hakeem did it in 94' and a few one-off's after that (Bird did it in 84').

ShawkFactory

03-26-2022, 04:05 PM

92' Pippen < 05' Hughes.

I’ll circle back to this :lol

I suppose I find your lack of shame commendable.

3ba11

03-26-2022, 04:13 PM

I’ll circle back to this :lol

I suppose I find your lack of shame commendable.

You're just ignorant about that era (didn't watch in the 90's or weren't alive), so you don't realize that it was indeed Pippen's caliber - all the stats and facts about his performance show that his peak capability was equal to peak Hughes... :confusedshrug:...

You want dates of Pippen's best performances that matched peak Hughes? You want dates for the many more performances that DIDN'T reach peak Hughes (or Horry (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?499833-Comparing-Pippen-s-6-Finals-performances-to-peak-Horry-performance-(95-Finals)))?...

The facts are on my side, while you're left with "6 rings doh", which means exactly nothing for a 2nd option... Giving Pippen credit for rings is like saying Klay > Embiid due to rings.. that's what people have done with Pippen - he's viewed as better than Ewing and dozens of other bosses, which is absurd

ShawkFactory

03-26-2022, 04:24 PM

You're just ignorant about that era (didn't watch in the 90's or weren't alive), so you don't realize that it was indeed Pippen's caliber - all the stats and facts about his performance show that his peak capability was equal to peak Hughes... :confusedshrug:...

You want dates of Pippen's best performances that matched peak Hughes? You want dates for the many more performances that DIDN'T reach peak Hughes (or Horry (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?499833-Comparing-Pippen-s-6-Finals-performances-to-peak-Horry-performance-(95-Finals)))?...

The facts are on my side, while you're left with "6 rings doh", which means exactly nothing for a 2nd option... Giving Pippen credit for rings is like saying Klay > Embiid due to rings.. that's what people have done with Pippen - he's viewed as better than Ewing and dozens of other bosses, which is absurd

Jesus :lol

I’ll circle back to this: your lack of shame is commendable.

3ba11

03-26-2022, 04:26 PM

Jesus :lol

I’ll circle back to this: your lack of shame is commendable.

22/5 - that's the best Pippen ever played - aka peak Hughes... Show me where he played better than that

Heck, forget Hughes - Pippen never even reached peak-Horry (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?499833-Comparing-Pippen-s-6-Finals-performances-to-peak-Horry-performance-(95-Finals))

Everyone's best was simply better than Pippen's - the stats and historical record prove that - Pippen never dominated and he wasn't a 20/10 guy like most other sidekicks.. He was a low producer and the only 90's sidekick that wasn't capable of elite ppg, apg, or rpg in any series of his career - imagine never getting elite ppg, apg or rpg in any series - the ONLY sidekick to never have elite stats in any category in any series.. and the only guy that was carried in every series (never a 1b).. lol.. the guy was a bum

no player is enhanced by the winning spotlight more than a low-producer like Pippen - the most overrated player of all time - he's the only guy where all the stats say that he's about 120th all-time (PER, WS/48, etc), yet he's top 30 - that's the biggest gap in stats and ranking ever.

Phoenix

03-26-2022, 04:40 PM

I answered that a long time ago but I'll do it again

you claim that 2005 didn't make Hughes a good player, yet now you're trying to do the same for Pippen's 91' playoffs (and trying to stretch it to 92' while avoiding the X-Man issue)..

Other than 91' and some of 92', Pippen was a bad sidekick - the stats show that clearly

First, I've made no comment about Larry Hughes so you're confusing me with another poster.

2nd, I asked you to make a list of all the 2nd option PPG, all 27 teams. If you've done it and I missed it somewhere, then kindly tell me which post. If not, then you're a lying little bitch.

Phoenix

03-26-2022, 04:41 PM

Phoenix

03-26-2022, 04:42 PM

92' Pippen < 05' Hughes, so cherry-picking a player's peak regular season makes my point that he was mostly aids.

Especially in the playoffs - Pippen had lower peak capability (ppg and apg) than all sidekicks in the playoffs outside the 1st Round.. He's the only sidekick incapable of elite ppg, apg or rpg... Most sidekicks were 20/10 guys (KJ, Payton, Kemp, Hardaway, etc).

Terry Porter averaged 26/5/8 several times on goat efficiency, including threes (curry-level threes)... Pippen is nowhere near this.

KJ averaged 27/5/9 in several series against Hakeem's champion Rockets and averaged 23/11 while upsetting Magic's 1 seed to make the 90' WCF

Penny, Payton and Kemp all reached far higher levels in ppg, rpg and apg for numerous series.

Pippen is the only sidekick that wasn't capable of elite production and wasn't a go-to player - every team had 2 elite scoring threats except the Bulls, so only Jordan faced maximum defensive attention (carried scoring load in playoffs and Finals of title run) until Hakeem did it in 94' and a few one-off's after that (Bird did it in 84').

That's not a list. I want a list, 2nd option PPG for 1992, all 27 teams. You said everyone outscored Pippen. FYI I didn't read any of that bullshit above.

List.

3ba11

03-26-2022, 04:47 PM

3ball? Where's the list that you claim you provided already. :lol

Payton was a better scorer and passer than Pippen because he peaked at 25 ppg in the playoffs against Hakeem's back-to-back champs and Payton was frequently the team's leading scorer (faced maximum defensive attention) - the only time Pippen faced maximum defensive attention was in the 94' ECSF where Ewing destroyed him and Kukoc had to take over in the clutch.

Every 90's sidekick could achieve elite ppg, apg or rpg except Pippen... Most 90's sidekicks were 20/10 guys like Kemp, KJ, Payton or Hardaway... Since Pippen is the only low-producing sidekick in the 90's, only MJ faced max defensive attention (carried scoring load in playoffs and Finals of a title run), until 94' Hakeem did it and a few other one-offs after that (and Bird in 84')

SouBeachTalents

03-26-2022, 04:48 PM

Phoenix

03-26-2022, 04:48 PM

Payton was a better scorer and passer than Pippen because he peaked at 25 ppg in the playoffs against Hakeem's back-to-back champs and Payton was frequently the team's leading scorer (faced maximum defensive attention) - the only time Pippen faced maximum defensive attention was in the 94' ECSF where Ewing destroyed him and Kukoc had to take over in the clutch.

Every 90's sidekick could achieve elite ppg, apg or rpg except Pippen... Most 90's sidekicks were 20/10 guys like Kemp, KJ, Payton or Hardaway... Since Pippen is the only low-producing sidekick in the 90's, only MJ faced max defensive attention (carried scoring load in playoffs and Finals of a title run), until 94' Hakeem did it and a few other one-offs after that (and Bird in 84')

Didn't read.

List.

Phoenix

03-26-2022, 04:49 PM

Since 3ball is WAY too big of a pusssy to ever answer, here's how many 2nd options outscored Pippen in 1992.

One, one 2nd option, Tim Hardaway, playing on the highest scoring, fastest paced team in the league.

I already know the answer, so does he. That's why he's not answering the question. All I'm doing at this point is providing more evidence of how much a bitch he is( not that this isn't common knowledge).

3ba11

03-26-2022, 05:06 PM

Didn't read.

List.

Mitch Richmond and Tim Hardaway both destroyed Pippen in 91' or 92' as sidekicks

Ultimately, Pippen's peak of 21/7 or 22/5 is complete trash and among the lowest of any 90's sidekick

So 3ball has defeated you on your regular season argument and now invites you to be defeated again (much more severely) as we look at peak playoff performance, where Pippen's is the worst ever (worse than Horry)..

Everyone's best was better than Pippen's because he's the only sidekick that was more of an athlete and not a go-to scorer or elite scorer - the Bulls were the only team with only 1 go-to scorer, so only MJ faced maximum defensive attention (carried scoring load in playoffs and Finals of title runs), until 94' Hakeem did it and a few other one-offs (and 84' Bird)

Phoenix

03-26-2022, 05:09 PM

Mitch Richmond and Tim Hardaway both destroyed Pippen in 91' or 92' as sidekicks

Ultimately, Pippen's peak of 21/7 or 22/5 is complete trash and among the lowest of any 90's sidekick

So 3ball has defeated you on your regular season argument and now invites you to be defeated again (much more severely) as we look at peak playoff performance, where Pippen's is the worst ever (worse than Horry)..

Everyone's best was better than Pippen's because he's the only sidekick that was more of an athlete and not a go-to scorer or elite scorer - so only MJ faced maximum defensive attention (carried scoring load in playoffs and Finals of title runs), until 94' Hakeem did it and a few other one-offs (and 84' Bird)

Didn't read.

List.

3ba11

03-26-2022, 05:10 PM

Didn't read.

List.

I did, so try reading and quit acting like a scared bitch

this isn't the first time 3ball has handed you your ass.. You should be used to it by now

Man up

Phoenix

03-26-2022, 05:14 PM

I did, so try reading and quit acting like a scared bitch

this isn't the first time 3ball has handed you your ass.. You should be used to it by now

Man up

No, you haven't. There were 27 teams in 1992. Go through each team and give me the 2nd option scorer. None of your posts have done THAT, just a lot of regurgitated bullshit.

You lose the argument on the 3rd page when you couldn't provide that, and now you're shook to the degree of talking in 3rd person.

You're a bitch. Now go fetch my list.

3ba11

03-26-2022, 05:27 PM

No, you haven't. There were 27 teams in 1992. Go through each team and give me the 2nd option scorer. None of your posts have done THAT, just a lot of regurgitated bullshit.

You lose the argument on the 3rd page when you couldn't provide that, and now you're shook to the degree of talking in 3rd person.

You're a bitch. Now go fetch my list.

You do it for 2005... After you do that... then I'll do it for 1992

Or we can save time and just summarize... :confusedshrug:... Among sidekicks, Hughes was the 2nd leading scorer in 2005 (behind Shaq) and Pippen was 2nd in 1992 (behind Hardaway)

So what's your point by bringing up Pippen's 1992?.. You're simply highlighting his garbage peak - it's a "larry hughes peak" and lower than any other 90's sidekick.

Regarding the playoffs - in various playoff series, everyone else could get elite points or assists or both, except Pippen - guys like Kemp could get elite scoring and rebounds, while Payton or KJ could get elite scoring and assists.. Only Pippen never achieved elite scoring, assists or rebounds in any playoff series - he's the only sidekick incapable of elite stats in any category.

Phoenix

03-26-2022, 05:38 PM

You do it for 2005... After you do that... then I'll do it for 1992

I don't need to do anything for 2005 because I haven't talked about Larry Hughes. Fukk off with that shit.

Now, back on topic. That ain't how this works. You were asked FIRST. You answer FIRST. Does the board see this little bitch avoid providing the list I asked for several pages ago and demand I supply a list of something unrelated? This retard actually went there. :oldlol:

ShawkFactory

03-26-2022, 05:49 PM

22/5 - that's the best Pippen ever played - aka peak Hughes... Show me where he played better than that

Heck, forget Hughes - Pippen never even reached peak-Horry (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?499833-Comparing-Pippen-s-6-Finals-performances-to-peak-Horry-performance-(95-Finals))

Everyone's best was simply better than Pippen's - the stats and historical record prove that - Pippen never dominated and he wasn't a 20/10 guy like most other sidekicks.. He was a low producer and the only 90's sidekick that wasn't capable of elite ppg, apg, or rpg in any series of his career - imagine never getting elite ppg, apg or rpg in any series - the ONLY sidekick to never have elite stats in any category in any series.. and the only guy that was carried in every series (never a 1b).. lol.. the guy was a bum

no player is enhanced by the winning spotlight more than a low-producer like Pippen - the most overrated player of all time - he's the only guy where all the stats say that he's about 120th all-time (PER, WS/48, etc), yet he's top 30 - that's the biggest gap in stats and ranking ever.

Every year from 91-98

3ba11

03-26-2022, 05:49 PM

I don't need to do anything for 2005 because I haven't talked about Larry Hughes. Fukk off with that shit.

Now, back on topic. That ain't how this works. You were asked FIRST. You answer FIRST. Does the board see this little bitch avoid providing the list I asked for several pages age and demand I supply a list of something unrelated? This retard actually went there. :oldlol:

Actually, you were asked first to respond to the thread title and you chose to make this a debate about Pippen, which is an unwinnable debate

the easiest way to win a debate on a player is to show instances where they dominated and played at the top level - I would be forced to shut up if you said "Pippen dominated the conference finals carried the Bulls to the 92' Finals by averaging 26/4/8 on 52% including 53% on threes (6 attempts)

but you can't do that because Pippen is the only guy that never reached a dominant level, while every other sidekick did.. Every other sidekick was a go-to player except Pippen, who was just an athlete/dunker/hustle player.. Since the Bulls were the only team without 2 go-to players, Jordan faced max defensive attention (carried scoring load in playoffs and Finals), which was largely unprecedented until 94' Hakeem did it and a few other one-offs (84' Bird too)

Phoenix

03-26-2022, 05:54 PM

Actually, you were asked first to respond to the thread title and you chose to make this a debate about Pippen, which is an unwinnable debate

the easiest way to win a debate on a player is to show instances where they dominated and played at the top level - I would be forced to shut up if you said "Pippen dominated the conference finals carried the Bulls to the 92' Finals by averaging 26/4/8 on 52% including 53% on threes (6 attempts)

but you can't do that because Pippen is the only guy that never reached a dominant level, while every other sidekick did.. Every other sidekick was a go-to player except Pippen, who was just an athlete/dunker/hustle player.. Since the Bulls were the only team without 2 go-to players, Jordan faced max defensive attention (carried scoring load in playoffs and Finals).

First, you didn't ask me anything about the thread title. 2nd, the first mention of Pippen was in post #6 by Coastalmarker. You replied with:

Pippen was outplayed by Ewing's sidekick 3 times (89' ECSF, 92' ECSF, 96' ECSF) yet Jordan still won each time, including as a big underdog in 89'.

Pippen was a low-producing bum that Jordan carried in literally every series - MJ/Pippen weren't a duo because there's never been a duo where 1 guy was always carried by massive margins

Every 90's sidekick was an elite, go-to scorer that achieved elite stats in many series (1b's), except Pippen.. Pippen was the only 90's sidekick that had low peak capability and was carried in every series (never a 1b like every other sidekick)

And that's where Pippen came into this thread. But he would have eventually anyways, because its your thread and his dick is firmly in your mouth.

Now bitch....list. Enough with the kindergarten level attempts at deflection.

3ba11

03-26-2022, 08:34 PM

First, you didn't ask me anything about the thread title. 2nd, the first mention of Pippen was in post #6 by Coastalmarker. You replied with:

And that's where Pippen came into this thread. But he would have eventually anyways, because its your thread and his dick is firmly in your mouth.

Now bitch....list. Enough with the kindergarten level attempts at deflection.

You do it for 2005... After you do that... then I'll do it for 1992

Among sidekicks, Hughes was the 2nd leading scorer in 2005 (behind Shaq) and Pippen was 2nd in 1992 (behind Hardaway)

So what's your point by bringing up Pippen's 1992?.. You're simply highlighting his garbage peak - it's a "larry hughes peak" and lower than any other 90's sidekick.

Regarding the playoffs - in various playoff series, everyone else could get elite points or assists or both, except Pippen - guys like Kemp could get elite scoring and rebounds, while Payton or KJ could get elite scoring and assists.. Only Pippen never achieved elite scoring, assists or rebounds in any playoff series - he's the only sidekick incapable of elite stats in any category.

Phoenix

03-26-2022, 08:44 PM

You do it for 2005... After you do that... then I'll do it for 1992

Among sidekicks, Hughes was the 2nd leading scorer in 2005 (behind Shaq) and Pippen was 2nd in 1992 (behind Hardaway)

So what's your point by bringing up Pippen's 1992?.. You're simply highlighting his garbage peak - it's a "larry hughes peak" and lower than any other 90's sidekick.

Regarding the playoffs - in various playoff series, everyone else could get elite points or assists or both, except Pippen - guys like Kemp could get elite scoring and rebounds, while Payton or KJ could get elite scoring and assists.. Only Pippen never achieved elite scoring, assists or rebounds in any playoff series - he's the only sidekick incapable of elite stats in any category.

I don't need to do anything for 2005 because I haven't talked about Larry Hughes. Fukk off with that shit.

Now, back on topic. That ain't how this works. You were asked FIRST. You answer FIRST. Does the board see this little bitch avoid providing the list I asked for several pages ago and demand I supply a list of something unrelated? This retard actually went there. :oldlol:

SouBeachTalents

03-26-2022, 08:48 PM

8Ball

03-26-2022, 08:50 PM

Pippen outplayed many of the opposing teams 1st options, let alone the 2nd options.

Phoenix

03-26-2022, 08:50 PM

.......'89 Pippen

09 Mo Williams.

3ba11

03-26-2022, 09:03 PM

I don't need to do anything for 2005 because I haven't talked about Larry Hughes. Fukk off with that shit.

Now, back on topic. That ain't how this works. You were asked FIRST. You answer FIRST. Does the board see this little bitch avoid providing the list I asked for several pages ago and demand I supply a list of something unrelated? This retard actually went there. :oldlol:

The purpose of thread titles is for posters to respond, yet you rejected this standard etiquette - you opted instead to interject yourself into someone else's conversation because you're insecure about Pippen.. That convo was between me and Coastal, yet you decided to see your way into it because you're insecure about Pip.

You know that Pippen wasn't a go-to player, which is rare for a winning sidekick and therefore proves MJ is goat.. Everyone else needed juggernaut scoring help, except MJ - everyone else needed elite scorers and go-to players at sidekick, except MJ.. you're insecure about this, so you try to make Pippen into something he wasn't (a go-to player).

And your attempt was lame - I couldn't even figure out what you were asking at first because you articulated it so poorly - but once I understood what you wanted, I easily proved you wrong - it turns out that 92' Pippen was 2nd in sidekick scoring and averaged 22 ppg, just like 05' Hughes.

so you confirmed what I've been saying for years - that Pippen had a Larry Hughes peak (22/5).. This is the lowest peak of any 90's sidekick, and the gap in peaks is even greater in the playoffs.. He's actually the only sidekick that never achieved elite ppg, rpg, or apg in any series..

Phoenix

03-26-2022, 09:08 PM

The purpose of thread titles is for posters to respond, yet you rejected this standard etiquette - you opted instead to interject yourself into someone else's conversation because you're insecure about Pippen.. That convo was between me and Coastal, yet you decided to see your way into it because you're insecure about Pip.

You know that Pippen wasn't a go-to player, which is rare for a winning sidekick and therefore proves MJ is goat.. Everyone else needed juggernaut scoring help, except MJ - everyone else needed elite scorers and go-to players at sidekick, except MJ.. you're insecure about this, so you try to make Pippen into something he wasn't (a go-to player).

And your attempt was lame - I couldn't even figure out what you were asking at first because you articulated it so poorly - but once I understood what you wanted, I easily proved you wrong - it turns out that 92' Pippen was 2nd in sidekick scoring and averaged 22 ppg, just like 05' Hughes.

so you confirmed what I've been saying for years - that Pippen had a Larry Hughes peak (22/5).. This is the lowest peak of any 90's sidekick, and the gap in peaks is even greater in the playoffs.. He's actually the only sidekick that never achieved elite ppg, rpg, or apg in any series..

Didn't read.

List.