Shawn Marion is pissed and has something to say

[Im Still Ballin]

:roll:

https://streamable.com/6m03kk

He was a great player. Underrated, perhaps.

Shawn was only 6'7" but he had freakishly long arms and high-set shoulders -- like Phil Jackson and Kevin McHale. This, when combined with his uber-athleticism and GOAT second jump, allowed him to play much larger than his height.

On defense, he could guard multiple positions, switching from forwards in the paint to guards out on the perimeter. He could even occasionally provide weakside rim protection against centers.

His best role on defense was playing that free-safety, roaming role. He'd no doubt fit right in with today's switch-heavy schemes.

Offensively, Shawn was a guy that could get you 20 points in a game without a single play called for him. He ran the fastbreak and used his legendary second jump to score offensive rebound putbacks. Fantastic cutter in the half-court.

He also set screens and rolled to the rim, using his explosive leap and long arms to finish lobs. He was also a decent enough spot-up shooter.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/C418UoRXhIA/hqdefault.jpg

[Loco 50]

Maybe the greatest role player of all-time. Nothing wrong with that, but sounds like he thought he was much better than he really was.

He's too caught up in the numbers. Everybody saw what happened to his game whenever a defense focused him.

Edit: Not even the greatest role player, I'd take Rodman or Draymond over him easily.

[Im Still Ballin]

He clearly has some resentment towards that '04-'08 period with D'Antonio, Nash, and Amare. Shawn didn't feel he got the credit that he deserved. I remember reading that the Phoenix Suns marketing department really only promoted Stoudemire and Steve; this rubbed Shawn the wrong way.

It makes sense, really: Shawn was an all-star ('02-'03) before either of Nash and D'Antonio came to town. When Amare was just a rookie. All the attention was on the offense, while Shawn was the glue that kept the defense together. Seems he felt that he really never got the props he felt that he deserved.

[HylianNightmare]

Cancel him

[Im Still Ballin]

Maybe the greatest role player of all-time. Nothing wrong with that, but sounds like he thought he was much better than he really was.

He's too caught up in the numbers. Everybody saw what happened to his game whenever a defense focused him.

Edit: Not even the greatest role player, I'd take Rodman or Draymond over him easily.

True. The man couldn't really create for himself or for others. Limits his ability as a floor-raiser. Great ceiling-rasier, though. Could fit him on any team, really.

[FultzNationRISE]

He clearly has some resentment towards that '04-'08 period with D'Antonio, Nash, and Amare. Shawn didn't feel he got the credit that he deserved. I remember reading that the Phoenix Suns marketing department really only promoted Stoudemire and Steve; this rubbed Shawn the wrong way.

It makes sense, really: Shawn was an all-star ('02-'03) before either of Nash and D'Antonio came to town. When Amare was just a rookie. All the attention was on the offense, while Shawn was the glue that kept the defense together. Seems he felt that he really never got the props he felt that he deserved.


San D’Antonio.

[SouBeachTalents]

Maybe the greatest role player of all-time. Nothing wrong with that, but sounds like he thought he was much better than he really was.

He's too caught up in the numbers. Everybody saw what happened to his game whenever a defense focused him.

Edit: Not even the greatest role player, I'd take Rodman or Draymond over him easily.
On no planet is an elite defender averaging 20/10, leading his team in scoring and making All-NBA a fcking role player :oldlol:

[Loco 50]

On no planet is an elite defender averaging 20/10, leading his team in scoring and making All-NBA a fcking role player :oldlol:
He's not doing that as a primary option or even secondary option...yes, he was a role player. The ultimate garbage man. Again, it's not a knock, he could fit well with almost any team and make them much better.

If asked to be anything other than a clean-up guy on offense though, that team is going to suck.

[Jasper]

Marion was a very good education for a fan.
Why do I say that :
For starters his jump shot was a set shoot while jumping ....
That means he had to find windows to get his shot off.
I remember when I was in school , and the coaches allowed any shoots to be used , and when you progressed thru school , you better have developed an over head
jumper otherwise they would not look at you.
** If you look at Curry - he has the same issue as Marion , , because he starts his shot at his shoulder ... must find a window.

Marion has no argument what so ever. .. he complained he was out rebounding players in a big era --- majority of his boards were scrap boards.
Sometimes he snatched a board in traffic , but not the norm.

/

[FultzNationRISE]

On no planet is an elite defender averaging 20/10, leading his team in scoring and making All-NBA a fcking role player :oldlol:

Terms like star and role player are fundamentally pretty silly anyway. We all use them to get a point across sometimes, but being a star is irrelevant to value since it’s technically just a measure of fame. Britney Spears was a “star,” but she wasnt a good singer. Also the term role player implies there are non-role players who shouldnt have to be part of the team concept, which is nonsense.

I know I would take prime Marion over prime Melo, despite the overwhelming majority of fans disagreeing because the latter is a “star” and the former is a “role player” and thats all many people can comprehend.

[Im Still Ballin]

San D’Antonio.

You sharp. You real sharp.

:applause:


Terms like star and role player are fundamentally pretty silly anyway. We all use them to get a point across sometimes, but being a star is irrelevant to value since it’s technically just a measure of fame. Britney Spears was a “star,” but she wasnt a good singer. Also the term role player implies there are non-role players who shouldnt have to be part of the team concept, which is nonsense.

I know I would take prime Marion over prime Melo, despite the overwhelming majority of fans disagreeing because the latter is a “star” and the former is a “role player” and thats all many people can comprehend.

This.

[SouBeachTalents]

He's not doing that as a primary option or even secondary option...yes, he was a role player. The ultimate garbage man. Again, it's not a knock, he could fit well with almost any team and make them much better.

If asked to be anything other than a clean-up guy on offense though, that team is going to suck.
Well, you and I disagree on what a role player is. I consider role players to be guys like Derek Fisher, Bruce Bowen, Tristan Thompson etc., to lump Shawn Marion into that category is preposterous.

[Kblaze8855]

Not dribbling or taking people one on one on your way to 20 a game doesn’t make you a role player. People really seem to believe great basketball playing is exclusively isolation scoring no matter how many scorers clearly contribute less than all around guys. Some of the best ISO players of all time are less useful than a Shawn Marion or AK47 to any number of teams. You need to score…and not let the other team score more. Both are required no matter how little some like to acknowledge.

Guys who can get you like 15-20% of the required points while also defending the entire other team and playing key roles casual fans don’t care about are often more valuable than a guy who scores 20-25% of your required points and makes everything else more difficult…..

Being so good all around and just finding 20 unplanned points laying on the ground all the time is a positive not a negative. A big positive. Not needing plays dedicated to contribute to the scoreboard is amazing. Every coach ln every level wants a guy who can score 20+ without scheming him open and devoting plays to it. If he can also guard Tmac or Dirk and 15 rebounds?

Shiiiit. Coaches dream.

[ArbitraryWater]

He‘s right.

[jlip]

I want to hear the original statement or comment that led to him going off like that.

[PeroAntic]

As great as he was he will still remembered by that shooting form, thats how horrible it was :oldlol:

[Im Still Ballin]

Not dribbling or taking people one on one on your way to 20 a game doesn’t make you a role player. People really seem to believe great basketball playing is exclusively isolation scoring no matter how many scorers clearly contribute less than all around guys. Some of the best ISO players of all time are less useful than a Shawn Marion or AK47 to any number of teams. You need to score…and not let the other team score more. Both are required no matter how little some like to acknowledge.

Guys who can get you like 15-20% of the required points while also defending the entire other team and playing key roles casual fans don’t care about are often more valuable than a guy who scores 20-25% of your required points and makes everything else more difficult…..

Being so good all around and just finding 20 unplanned points laying on the ground all the time is a positive not a negative. A big positive. Not needing plays dedicated to contribute to the scoreboard is amazing. Every coach ln every level wants a guy who can score 20+ without scheming him open and devoting plays to it. If he can also guard Tmac or Dirk and 15 rebounds?

Shiiiit. Coaches dream.

Agreed.

[999Guy]

Now can somebody go rile up AK47 so he can make his peace too?

And Rasheed Wallace.

Kevin Garnett is the president of the angry pretty damn underrated big man club.


Al Horford is gonna get inducted one day too. Even though he wasn’t quite as good as these guys.

[tpols]

Shawn Marions jumper was super ugly. Its like he was throwing a chest pass at the rim. :lol But it worked. I don't know how nobody ever taught him to release the ball high above his head instead of shotputting it at the basket. Its actually remarkable he shot better that way than a ton of guys with much better form.

[Loco 50]

Well, you and I disagree on what a role player is. I consider role players to be guys like Derek Fisher, Bruce Bowen, Tristan Thompson etc., to lump Shawn Marion into that category is preposterous.
A true star is someone that you can ask/rely on to go get or create that crucial bucket on offense or deny it on defense.

There haven't been many true, 2 way stars.

The folks that call Marion a star are the type that overpay a guy like Marion. That type of thinking separates championship GMs from playoff GMs. It ties up too much money in a guy that will get you fired if you depend on him to win you a game.

You threw out Bruce Bowen. Bruce Bowen got paid a fraction of the money Marion got, yet when it came down to it in the playoffs, the Spurs could hide Parker on Marion defensively while Bruce disrupted the hot hand, usually Nash. When a team takes their best defender off of you and hides their worst on you that does not make you star caliber, especially when you're making star money. Doesn't matter how many clean-up points you get.

Meanwhile, I can recall Marion complaining about his limited offensive role......disrupting team chemistry when they needed it most. As a Spur fan, believe I was happy every time Marion took a shot away from Stoudemire and Nash.

We definitely disagree on what a role player is. Maybe you view it as a disrespectful term. I don't. Marion was the ultimate fantasy player. He filled up the sheets, but he's not a guy that you draw up a final play for or expect a game changing defensive stop or game ending rebound from either.

The best role players, in my opinion, are the glue guys. Guys that can fill whatever gaps the team may need on any given night during the guts of a game.

Your Diaws, Draymonds, Rodmans.....Marions. Superb role players. Not a knock, they're key to winning a chip.

Fisher, Thompson and Bowen were obviously more limited, but still in the same category, in my view.

[Loco 50]

Not dribbling or taking people one on one on your way to 20 a game doesn’t make you a role player. People really seem to believe great basketball playing is exclusively isolation scoring no matter how many scorers clearly contribute less than all around guys. Some of the best ISO players of all time are less useful than a Shawn Marion or AK47 to any number of teams. You need to score…and not let the other team score more. Both are required no matter how little some like to acknowledge.

Guys who can get you like 15-20% of the required points while also defending the entire other team and playing key roles casual fans don’t care about are often more valuable than a guy who scores 20-25% of your required points and makes everything else more difficult…..

Being so good all around and just finding 20 unplanned points laying on the ground all the time is a positive not a negative. A big positive. Not needing plays dedicated to contribute to the scoreboard is amazing. Every coach ln every level wants a guy who can score 20+ without scheming him open and devoting plays to it. If he can also guard Tmac or Dirk and 15 rebounds?

Shiiiit. Coaches dream.

Marion was a coaches dream up until the moment he felt he was a star and demanded a bigger role in the offense. Then it's coaches nightmare, especially a guy like D'Antoni.

A star gets you over the hump when the calls get tight and the defense gets tighter, so it sounds like you've got a much more liberal view of what makes one than I do.

But hey, to each their own. When our fantasy, fantasy teams face up and you've drafted Marion making T-Mac/Dirk cap money while I actually have T-Mac or Dirk I'm confident in both our decisions.

[Kblaze8855]

Marion was a coaches dream up until the moment he felt he was a star and demanded a bigger role in the offense. Then it's coaches nightmare, especially a guy like D'Antoni.

A star gets you over the hump when the calls get tight and the defense gets tighter, so it sounds like you've got a much more liberal view of what makes one than I do.

But hey, to each their own. When our fantasy, fantasy teams face up and you've drafted Marion making T-Mac/Dirk cap money while I actually have T-Mac or Dirk I'm confident in both our decisions.


The salary cap diminishing the potential pay of stars so they all fall into the same range has nothing to do with the idea that a guy who was 13th in a league of 400 people in scoring while also being one of the better defenders and rebounders is a role player. Shawn Marion was the leading scorer on 2-3 teams. Not a go to scorer but leading one anyway.

You do like 22/12 with elite defense you aren’t a role player just because you don’t dribble much before you score. If getting a team “over the hump” decides who role players are there have been elite scorers who couldn’t.

Hell there are guys in the hall of fame for nothing but their shot creation and scoring who barely scored more than Marion in his prime while doing little else. This modern idea that everyone who isn’t likely to be the best player on a champion is to be belittled is a joke to me.

Given all the running and open shots it’s not impossible Marion could score 24-25 a game right now on an uptempo team. He was scoring 20+ in a slower one just finding baskets(granted in more minutes than he’d play now).

Talking about Tmac and Dirk. Like you have to be a top 15-20 all time offensive talent to not be a role player….

Marion would be the top or second scorer on like 70% of teams in history I bet.

[Norcaliblunt]

Marion was great but his diva attitude as demonstrated in this clip cost the Suns big time. Nash was never the highest paid player on the Suns, Marion was. As much of a glue guy on the court he was dude was cancer in the locker room. If he keeps his mouth shut, doesn’t demand so much money, Phoenix probably ends up with a title and he has a way better legacy. Probably sure fire hall of famer.

And seriously his shot was one of the ugliest ever. Can’t he at least have a sense of humor about it. Yeah it was ugly but it went in type shit.

[Loco 50]

The salary cap diminishing the potential pay of stars so they all fall into the same range has nothing to do with the idea that a guy who was 13th in a league of 400 people in scoring while also being one of the better defenders and rebounders is a role player. Shawn Marion was the leading scorer on 2-3 teams. Not a go to scorer but leading one anyway.

You do like 22/12 with elite defense you aren’t a role player just because you don’t dribble much before you score. If getting a team “over the hump” decides who role players are there have been elite scorers who couldn’t.

Hell there are guys in the hall of fame for nothing but their shot creation and scoring who barely scored more than Marion in his prime while doing little else. This modern idea that everyone who isnÂ’t likely to be the best player on a champion is to be belittled is a joke to me.

Given all the running and open shots itÂ’s not impossible Marion could score 24-25 a game right now on an uptempo team. He was scoring 20+ in a slower one just finding baskets(granted in more minutes than heÂ’d play now).

Talking about Tmac and Dirk. Like you have to be a top 15-20 all time offensive talent to not be a role playerÂ….

Marion would be the top or second scorer on like 70% of teams in history I bet.

Guy played with Nash or Kidd almost his entire career.....could have sworn I've read you trivialize some of Malone's scoring credentials because he played with Stockton his entire career. Same scenario to me if you're attempting to trump up Marion's scoring ability.

Disagree about "elite defense" as well, but whatever, you clearly think higher of him than I do in almost every aspect.

Succeeding at "getting over the hump" isn't in any way necessary to being a star. i.e. Barkley/Ewing/Stockton/Kemp/Carter etc etc

Bottom-line is - Guy made over a hundred million dollars over his career and still cries about being underrated in retirement, same as he did when he played. All while playing on talent-stacked teams with goat tier pgs. True stars have succeeded with less.

His ego outweighed his production when games came down to the nitty gritty.

[Norcaliblunt]

Joe Johnson vs Shawn Marion. Who should have the Suns kept? It would’ve been interesting to see what Phoenix would’ve been with Johnson instead of Marion. Great glue guy hustle player defender vs a creator scorer.

And to think if these dudes take less money they both are probably on lock hall of famers with at least one title in Phoenix.

[Kblaze8855]

Acknowledging the symbiotic relationship between great playmakers and finishers doesn’t mean I think the finishers are role players. Especially when they are the leading scorers on multiple 50+ win teams. Guys who can’t do anything but score often don’t score more than the 18-22 a game prime Marion would give you while being largely useless for any other purpose. The idea he’s a role player while doing 20/11 and being all nba is just symptomatic of the disease of elitism in modern fans. There’s apparently only elite and role players. You see it in all sports. QB throws for 33 touchdown and 7 picks and he’s garbage because he’s not Rodgers or Mahomes.

And here we have people acting like all manner of stars aren’t even good. Like there are two things. All timers and role players.

There are many things. Marion was shy of superstar but a solid deserving all star. Certainly not a role player just because of the method by which he’d score 20ish while not even being a guy who’s best aspect was scoring.

Glenn Robinson couldn’t do shit else and he’s gonna score the same 20 Marion would without needing the ball. Same for a lot of guys who were go to scorers. Marion isn’t what anyones ever considered a role player and that’s just how it is.

He doesn’t attack one on one. That’s all. Considering that most people who do will score less than him in the process and not contribute anything else it’s not much to use against him.

[Norcaliblunt]

I don’t think role player or star player are the right terms here. It’s more like was he a great 1st option vs 2nd option vs 3rd option and so on.

[Loco 50]

Marion was great but his diva attitude as demonstrated in this clip cost the Suns big time. Nash was never the highest paid player on the Suns, Marion was. As much of a glue guy on the court he was dude was cancer in the locker room. If he keeps his mouth shut, doesn’t demand so much money, Phoenix probably ends up with a title and he has a way better legacy. Probably sure fire hall of famer.

And seriously his shot was one of the ugliest ever. Can’t he at least have a sense of humor about it. Yeah it was ugly but it went in type shit.

Exactly, Marion's personality f'd it all up for them. I was ecstatic when he signed that huge contract because it meant they'd lose other talent, namely Joe Johnson, as you mentioned in your other post. But, that's on the GM for overrating his talent too.

If they keep that team together, they ring.

[Loco 50]

Acknowledging the symbiotic relationship between great playmakers and finishers doesn’t mean I think the finishers are role players. Especially when they are the leading scorers on multiple 50+ win teams. Guys who can’t do anything but score often don’t score more than the 18-22 a game prime Marion would give you while being largely useless for any other purpose. The idea he’s a role player while doing 20/11 and being all nba is just symptomatic of the disease of elitism in modern fans. There’s apparently only elite and role players. You see it in all sports. QB throws for 33 touchdown and 7 picks and he’s garbage because he’s not Rodgers or Mahomes.

And here we have people acting like all manner of stars aren’t even good. Like there are two things. All timers and role players.

There are many things. Marion was shy of superstar but a solid deserving all star. Certainly not a role player just because of the method by which he’d score 20ish while not even being a guy who’s best aspect was scoring.

Glenn Robinson couldn’t do shit else and he’s gonna score the same 20 Marion would without needing the ball. Same for a lot of guys who were go to scorers. Marion isn’t what anyones ever considered a role player and that’s just how it is.

He doesn’t attack one on one. That’s all. Considering that most people who do will score less than him in the process and not contribute anything else it’s not much to use against him.

Strawmanning. Never said all finishers were role players, however, in my view, finding players that can create either for themselves or others is a much rarer talent. Therefore, more valuable.

You view the term "role player' as an insult. I don't.

Given the scenario that the only goal is a championship here and not just a successful team. Every team that rings needs at least one All-timer. Someone that is going to get calls/respect from officials when the games grind to a halt. Every other player has a role to fill. If you don't have "the guy" you don't win period. Nobody stated that everyone else on the court was "garbage." They're vital, yet their production is without question easier to replace. Right or wrong, guys like Marion don't get the respect from the officials needed to win a title.

You lose "the guy" = All-timer = true star = whatever favorite term you like, to an injury during a playoff run and everyone in the building knows that run is over. The air is sucked out of the damn building.

Nash/Stoudemire go down. Pack your bags, the run is over, because their unique production in the clutch and respect from officials is irreplaceable.

Marion goes down. The collective team can step up to fill the void, unless you view his defensive capabilities as something only he can provide. Obviously, I don't. I can't recall him ever having a standout defensive series in his career, but hey that's just a matter of opinion.

[Kblaze8855]

So you watched the suns lose both 26ppg toe to toe with prime Duncan Amare…and Joe Johnson….then win like 55 games with Marion as their leading scorer…make it exactly as far in the playoffs(after Marion did 30+ a game the last 3 of the second round including a 36/20 game). You see that happen then talk about how you just pack it in without Amare but Marion can be replaced with team efforts. Like…did you miss the Suns replacing their elite scorers with team effort…largely Marion’s?

What are we even talking about?



That “To win a title” shit has to be the most overused analysis in basketball discussion. You aren’t winning a title with most great players and the idea that you can or can’t with this guy or that one is largely just playing the result. Just that when scorers lose people find a way to blame others as if many great scorers aren’t largely responsible for their teams not having the D to win.

You need a team. You can get a good one any number of ways. After that it’s mostly luck and health.

[Loco 50]

So you watched the suns lose both 26ppg toe to toe with prime Duncan Amare…and Joe Johnson….then win like 55 games with Marion as their leading scorer…make it exactly as far in the playoffs(after Marion did 30+ a game the last 3 of the second round including a 36/20 game). You see that happen then talk about how you just pack it in without Amare but Marion can be replaced with team efforts. Like…did you miss the Suns replacing their elite scorers with team effort…largely Marion’s?

What are we even talking about?

Lost my post because this board is archaic and won't retype everything. The western conference was very different from 2005 to 2006. Losing Amare and Johnson took Phoenix out of contention in a considerably weaker conference, regular season results be damned. If they retain those two they easily beat Dallas and probably beat S.A. if Manu doesn't have his meltdown against Dallas in the semis. The East had no business ringing that year, but they took advantage of Dallas ineptitude/inexperience whatever you want to chalk it up to. As for Marion's numbers, you're more enamored by them than I am.


That “To win a title” shit has to be the most overused analysis in basketball discussion. You aren’t winning a title with most great players and the idea that you can or can’t with this guy or that one is largely just playing the result. Just that when scorers lose people find a way to blame others as if many great scorers aren’t largely responsible for their teams not having the D to win.

Largely agree. You're talking to a Robinson era Spurs fan.


You need a team. You can get a good one any number of ways. After that it’s mostly luck and health.
This is so apparent it shouldn't even have to be written.

[TAZORAC]

Medicore ball handler, and shooter. Was a FRINGE all-star for a few years. About equal to Richard Jefferson