Patrick Ewing vs Scottie Pippen, who is better?

[8Ball]

ESPN puts Patrick Ewing at 37 all time.
Scottie Pippen at 21 all time.

Accolades:

Ewing:
11× NBA All-Star (1986, 1988–1997)
All-NBA First Team (1990)
6× All-NBA Second Team (1988, 1989, 1991–1993, 1997)
3× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1988, 1989, 1992)
NBA Rookie of the Year (1986)


Pippen:
6× NBA champion (1991–1993, 1996–1998)
7× NBA All-Star (1990, 1992–1997)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (1994)
3× All-NBA First Team (1994–1996)
2× All-NBA Second Team (1992, 1997)
2× All-NBA Third Team (1993, 1998)
8× NBA All-Defensive First Team (1992–1999)
2× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1991, 2000)
NBA steals leader (1995)



Ewing was all-nba 1st team one time only vs 3 all-nba 1st teams for Pippen.


Pippen takes the cake here in my opinion.


PS. Dwyane Wade is about 23-24 all time according to ESPN

[RogueBorg]

ESPN puts Patrick Ewing at 37 all time.
Scottie Pippen at 21 all time.

Accolades:

Ewing:
11× NBA All-Star (1986, 1988–1997)
All-NBA First Team (1990)
6× All-NBA Second Team (1988, 1989, 1991–1993, 1997)
3× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1988, 1989, 1992)
NBA Rookie of the Year (1986)


Pippen:
6× NBA champion (1991–1993, 1996–1998)
7× NBA All-Star (1990, 1992–1997)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (1994)
3× All-NBA First Team (1994–1996)
2× All-NBA Second Team (1992, 1997)
2× All-NBA Third Team (1993, 1998)
8× NBA All-Defensive First Team (1992–1999)
2× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1991, 2000)
NBA steals leader (1995)



Ewing was all-nba 1st team one time only vs 3 all-nba 1st teams for Pippen.


Pippen takes the cake here in my opinion.


PS. Dwyane Wade is about 23-24 all time according to ESPN

Ewing's accolades aren't higher because he went up against Olajuwon, Shaq, and Robinson. Back in the 90's, no one thought Pippen was better than Ewing. The Bulls would've traded Pippen in a New York minute to get Ewing. If Bird's prime playing in the 90's, Pippen would have zero All-NBA 1st teams. He's fortunate he played when he did.

[Baller789]

Ewing's accolades aren't higher because he went up against Olajuwon, Shaq, and Robinson. Back in the 90's, no one thought Pippen was better than Ewing. The Bulls would've traded Pippen in a New York minute to get Ewing. If Bird's prime playing in the 90's, Pippen would have zero All-NBA 1st teams. He's fortunate he played when he did.

He's also lucky that the main competition @ small forward, Grant Hill, was perpetually hurt.

The answer is Ewing.

Star bigs were always more valuable during that era.

Unless it's Mike.

[RogueBorg]

He's also lucky that the main competition @ small forward, Grant Hill, was perpetually hurt.

The answer is Ewing.

Star bigs were always more valuable during that era.

Unless it's Mike.

Great point, by Grant Hill's 2nd season, Pippen never made 1st team again.

[n00bie]

They're 2 different types of players, playing different positions.

Tough to compare who's better, but I'd rather build around Ewing.

[Baller789]

Great point, by Grant Hill's 2nd season, Pippen never made 1st team again.

Yeah, Grant was basically Pip but better at everything.

[Johnny32]

no one thought Pippen was better than Ewing..?

false.

[RogueBorg]

no one thought Pippen was better than Ewing..?

false.

Just to be clear, you think back in the 90's the majority of people thought Pippen was better than Ewing? You'd be wrong. I'm a Bulls fan, grew up and lived in Chicago during the 80's and 90's, at the time, no one in Chicago thought Pippen was better than Ewing. Ok, maybe some stoned homeless Knicks hater might have thought that, but no one in their right mind. Chicago almost traded him for Kemp, they would have absolutely made that deal straight up Pippen for Ewing.

[Johnny32]

Just to be clear, you think back in the 90's the majority of people thought Pippen was better than Ewing?

pippen was consistently referred to as a top 5 player in the lg in the 90s. if you were watching the games you'd know that.

[RogueBorg]

pippen was consistently referred to as a top 5 player in the lg in the 90s. if you were watching the games you'd know that.

I was watching those games an no they did not. The top 5 was;

1. Jordan
2. Olajuwon
3. Shaq
4. Robinson
5. Barkley or Malone

No way in hell was Pippen above those guys.

[Johnny32]

I was watching those games

you clearly weren't.

[SouBeachTalents]

Yeah, Grant was basically Pip but better at everything.
Better at defense? Hell nah :lol

And outside of 2000, he was putting up virtually identical averages to prime Pippen every season.

[RogueBorg]

you clearly weren't.

1. Jordan
2. Olajuwon
3. Shaq
4. Robinson
5. Barkley/Malone

If Pippen was top 5 according to you, who comes off the list?

[Patrick Chewing]

Is this a joke??

[8Ball]

I guess after reading the replies I have to give Ewing the slight edge here.

But Pippen nearly took out Ewing in 1994 without MJ and played Ewing to a near equal in 94 when Pippen was 1st option.

Ewing averaged 23/12
Pippen averaged 22/8/4

I always wondered why Ewing is always ranked so low on every all time list.

[8Ball]

Ewing's accolades aren't higher because he went up against Olajuwon, Shaq, and Robinson. Back in the 90's, no one thought Pippen was better than Ewing. The Bulls would've traded Pippen in a New York minute to get Ewing. If Bird's prime playing in the 90's, Pippen would have zero All-NBA 1st teams. He's fortunate he played when he did.

I'll give you that. Making 1st team against those guys no easy task.

[iamgine]

Pippen was better.

Ewing was thought of as better because he was a first option star player but he really wasn't that good. Ewing was around the same level as Nique.

[Axe]

I'll take the one with six rings.

[Gudo]

So I guess rings do matter

[Patrick Chewing]

I'll take the one with six rings.

You don't know basketball.

[97 bulls]

I can't speak for Ewing. But there's been multiple players and coaches that have listed Pippen as the best to top 5 best player in the league. Perhaps you guys assessment of Pippen is just wrong. Again, I haven't seen anyone call Ewing a top 5 player in the NBA.

[Im Still Ballin]

It's an interesting discussion.

At first glance, you'd think to side with Ewing. To be honest, I'm not sure. Two different types of players; it's like comparing a hammer to a wrench.

[warriorfan]

Shows you how much of a legacy boost pip got from playing with mj

[RogueBorg]

I can't speak for Ewing. But there's been multiple players and coaches that have listed Pippen as the best to top 5 best player in the league. Perhaps you guys assessment of Pippen is just wrong. Again, I haven't seen anyone call Ewing a top 5 player in the NBA.

Hindsight being 20/20, looking back you can compare accomplishments and make an argument.

But at the time, do you think the Knicks would have traded Ewing for Pippen straight up?

Do you think the Bulls would have traded Pippen for Ewing straight up?

And IF Pippen is top 5, who on this list does he replace?

1. Jordan
2. Olajuwon
3. Shaq
4. Robinson
5. Barkley/Malone

[bizil]

GOAT wise, Pip has the edge. Because GOAT status is your entire resume. But Pat PROVED he could at least get a squad to the Finals. But peak-prime wise, I would take Pat over Pip. Back in the day, we had NEVER seen a SF like Pip. ONLY THING is Pip ISN'T a guy who can carry the scoring load. A team would have to be built like the 2004 Pistons for Pip to be in a positon to win a ring like that. With Pat YOU KNOW you got that plus great rebounding and defense.

If you look at NBA history, the BEST PLAYER in the league was either a 6'5 and up perimeter player (MJ-Bird-Bron-Magic-Kobe-KD types) a dominant interior center or PF-C type (Wilt-Kareem-Moses-Dream-Shaq-Duncan), or a positionless phenoms like a Bron or Giannis. Ewing was CLOSER to being one of these types of players that i listed than Pip was. Ewing WAS CLOSER to the level of Shaq or Dream than Pippen was to the perimeter icons I named. All the legends I named LEGIT had alpha dog scoring cred in their own way. Pip NEVER DID! Ultimate blend is great scoring AND great all around ability as a package. Ewing IF ANYTHING at least had that!

[bizil]

When people were saying Pip was a top 3 player in the league, they were BLINDED by his floor game (defense, rebounding, passing as a package), positional versatility, and freak athletic ability! And ya he would get 20 PPG too. What they SHOULD HAVE SAID was Pip was the best ALL AROUND PLAYER in the league once MJ was gone. Because they would have BEEN RIGHT! Pip had the best blend scoring, passing, rebounding, defense, and positional versatility at one point.

ONLY THING is you had players who had very good to great floor games themselves. And some of them had very good-great positional versatility. Not on the level of Pippen but very good to great nonetheless. BUT their scoring ability was HANDS DOWN better than Pippen! So FOR ME, give me the great scorer WITH very good to great all around ability OVER the very good scorer with the great all around ability!

[97 bulls]

Hindsight being 20/20, looking back you can compare accomplishments and make an argument.

But at the time, do you think the Knicks would have traded Ewing for Pippen straight up?

Do you think the Bulls would have traded Pippen for Ewing straight up?

And IF Pippen is top 5, who on this list does he replace?

1. Jordan
2. Olajuwon
3. Shaq
4. Robinson
5. Barkley/Malone

Take it up with Barkley, Thomas, Julius Erving, Larry Bird, Jordan, Chuck Daly, John Salley, Clyde Drexler, Karl Malone, Phil Jackson, Bon Costas to name a few. I was responding to the assessment that no one saw Pippen as a top 5 player at the time. That's just not true.



I'd take 10 years of Pippen as the man over Barkley and Robinson. Seeing as how both players got ample opportunity to lead a team to a championship and failed where as Pippen didn't.

[Axe]

You don't know basketball.
And you don't know anything about family at all, dearest poopsie.

[97 bulls]

When people were saying Pip was a top 3 player in the league, they were BLINDED by his floor game (defense, rebounding, passing as a package), positional versatility, and freak athletic ability! And ya he would get 20 PPG too. What they SHOULD HAVE SAID was Pip was the best ALL AROUND PLAYER in the league once MJ was gone. Because they would have BEEN RIGHT! Pip had the best blend scoring, passing, rebounding, defense, and positional versatility at one point.

ONLY THING is you had players who had very good to great floor games themselves. And some of them had very good-great positional versatility. Not on the level of Pippen but very good to great nonetheless. BUT their scoring ability was HANDS DOWN better than Pippen! So FOR ME, give me the great scorer WITH very good to great all around ability OVER the very good scorer with the great all around ability!

. I saw your post on Kevin McHale, it was what he could've did, not what he couldn't do. With Pippen? It's what he didn't do (totally dismissing that he didn't have a fair opportunity). Your assessment is worthless. Especially when compared to what alltime greats have said about Pippen.

[Round Mound]

I have Pippen ranked 9th just below Pat as a top 10 player of the 90's.

1-MJ
2-Hakeem
3-Sir Charles
4-Malone
5-Robinson
6-Shaq
7-Drexler
8-Ewing
9-Pippen
10-Stockton & Payton

[TAZORAC]

I have Pippen ranked 9th just below Pat as a top 10 player of the 90's.

1-MJ
2-Hakeem
3-Sir Charles
4-Malone
5-Robinson
6-Shaq
7-Drexler
8-Ewing
9-Pippen
10-Stockton & Payton

Dominique Wilkins was better then Pippen

[beasted]

I can't speak for Ewing. But there's been multiple players and coaches that have listed Pippen as the best to top 5 best player in the league. Perhaps you guys assessment of Pippen is just wrong. Again, I haven't seen anyone call Ewing a top 5 player in the NBA.
Let's assume that we agree that it was said, do you believe it though? Do you really believe that Pippen at ANY point was the best player in the NBA?

Let's approach this another way. Is there any player over the last 40 seasons who had a legitimate claim as a top 2 player at any point in their career that didn't at least have 1 scoring title, 1 MVP, or 1 DPOY award by the time they retired?

[Round Mound]

Dominique Wilkins was better then Pippen

As a scorer not as a defender, passer, creator of offense, rebounder, shot blocker, stealer and they where pretty much equal in the open court driving to dunk.

[bizil]

. I saw your post on Kevin McHale, it was what he could've did, not what he couldn't do. With Pippen? It's what he didn't do (totally dismissing that he didn't have a fair opportunity). Your assessment is worthless. Especially when compared to what alltime greats have said about Pippen.

Nah the THING IS Pip has his shot when MJ WENT to baseball. Pip was A VET in the league at that point! Already had three rings! As great as Pip was, he NEVER ESTABLISHED that he was a great scorer. That's ALL I'VE ever said about Pippen! That team NEEDED Pip to step up his scoring for them to have a shot at the ring. THAT was the standard in Chicago. The ULTIMATE pass first player in Magic STEPPED up his scoring once Kareem was past his prime! Pip NEVER PROVED he could do that consistently over a season!

And when MJ was AWAY for baseball, you had Dream, Shaq, Robinson, Mailman, and Barkley in the league. Pip was NO LOCK top 5 player in the league. All those legends were MVPs at some point in the league. While Pat never won an MVP, AT LEAST he led a team to the Finals. AT Pip's EXPENSE to boot!!! LMAO!

And IF YOUR ASS can comprehend shit, I said people were blinded by Pip's ALL AROUND ABILITY! And AT THAT POINT, he was the best ALL AROUND PLAYER in the league! BUT the best all around player ISN'T the better player in all cases! AT BEST Pip was #7 in the league at that point. It takes MJ-Magic-Bird level perimeter players TO SUPERCEDE the best crop of centers EVER TO PLAY! That's WHAT YOUR DUMB ASS fails to realize! We are talking Dream-Shaq-Robinson-Ewing. Four of the top 10 GOAT centers! Let alone Malone and Barkley (at one point the top two GOAT PF's) WERE STILL IN THEIR PRIMES!!! Scottie AT HIS BEST we never as good as those guys. ALL AROUND WISE, he was THE BEST in the world while MJ was playing baseball. BEST all around ISN'T best player in all cases! The jury on Pip's scoring ability WAS STILL OUT at the time. But LOOKING BACK, it was PROVEN Pip wasn't an alpha dog CALIBER SCORER! As time went on, YES THOSE SAME LEGENDS YOU NAME overshot their projections!

And G Hill in his 2nd year in the league was ALREADY BETTER THAN PIP! LMAO! And when it comes to Isiah, he said NOBODY was saying Pip could be the FACE OF THE LEAGUE once MJ was gone. They were PASSING THAT MANTLE to G Hill!

[97 bulls]

Let's assume that we agree that it was said, do you believe it though? Do you really believe that Pippen at ANY point was the best player in the NBA?

Let's approach this another way. Is there any player over the last 40 seasons who had a legitimate claim as a top 2 player at any point in their career that didn't at least have 1 scoring title, 1 MVP, or 1 DPOY award by the time they retired?
Why do we have to "assume" or "agree" that it was said? It was said on video many times.

Do I feel Pippen was ever the best player in the league? No. Top 3-5? Yes. From 94 to 97.

I hate to answer your question with a question, but from 94 to 96 Pippen finished top 5 in MVP and DPOY voting. How many players at any time in history can make that claim?

[L.Kizzle]

Ewing.

MJ and P.Ew are winning chips
Pippen and Starks ... and not making it out the first round.

[ImKobe]

Ewing beat & outplayed peak Scottie H2H and led his team to the Finals. Pippen couldn't make the Finals without MJ. Ewing carried his team on both ends of the court for the majority of his career while Pippen coasted off MJ.


Ewing.

MJ and P.Ew are winning chips
Pippen and Starks ... and not making it out the first round.

Put Ewing & MJ on the same team in '87 and they're beating the Pistons before '91.

[Full Court]

Another desperation thread from 8ball. :lol This guy is SHOOK.

Virtually nobody in the 90s thought Pippen was better than Ewing, and even fewer had him top 5.

As second options, one could argue Pippen might have been better, but as team alpha, it's Ewing all the way. That's not even really debatable.

[HoopsNY]

Ewing and it's not close.

[97 bulls]

Ewing.

MJ and P.Ew are winning chips
Pippen and Starks ... and not making it out the first round.

Replace Pete Myers with John Starks and the Bulls are winning the chip in 94.

[3ba11]

.
Players that made the Finals as 1st options in the 90's



MJ
Hakeem
Shaq
Malone
Barkley
Ewing
Drexler


^^^ those are the best players of the 90's... :confusedshrug:

That's how everyone viewed it at the time - those same people view it the same way now

Btw, Robinson made it in 99' as 2nd option but he probably would've been 1st over Duncan earlier in the 90's - so he's in that group too

[97 bulls]

Nah the THING IS Pip has his shot when MJ WENT to baseball. Pip was A VET in the league at that point! Already had three rings! As great as Pip was, he NEVER ESTABLISHED that he was a great scorer. That's ALL I'VE ever said about Pippen! That team NEEDED Pip to step up his scoring for them to have a shot at the ring. THAT was the standard in Chicago. The ULTIMATE pass first player in Magic STEPPED up his scoring once Kareem was past his prime! Pip NEVER PROVED he could do that consistently over a season!

And when MJ was AWAY for baseball, you had Dream, Shaq, Robinson, Mailman, and Barkley in the league. Pip was NO LOCK top 5 player in the league. All those legends were MVPs at some point in the league. While Pat never won an MVP, AT LEAST he led a team to the Finals. AT Pip's EXPENSE to boot!!! LMAO!

And IF YOUR ASS can comprehend shit, I said people were blinded by Pip's ALL AROUND ABILITY! And AT THAT POINT, he was the best ALL AROUND PLAYER in the league! BUT the best all around player ISN'T the better player in all cases! AT BEST Pip was #7 in the league at that point. It takes MJ-Magic-Bird level perimeter players TO SUPERCEDE the best crop of centers EVER TO PLAY! That's WHAT YOUR DUMB ASS fails to realize! We are talking Dream-Shaq-Robinson-Ewing. Four of the top 10 GOAT centers! Let alone Malone and Barkley (at one point the top two GOAT PF's) WERE STILL IN THEIR PRIMES!!! Scottie AT HIS BEST we never as good as those guys. ALL AROUND WISE, he was THE BEST in the world while MJ was playing baseball. BEST all around ISN'T best player in all cases! The jury on Pip's scoring ability WAS STILL OUT at the time. But LOOKING BACK, it was PROVEN Pip wasn't an alpha dog CALIBER SCORER! As time went on, YES THOSE SAME LEGENDS YOU NAME overshot their projections!

And G Hill in his 2nd year in the league was ALREADY BETTER THAN PIP! LMAO! And when it comes to Isiah, he said NOBODY was saying Pip could be the FACE OF THE LEAGUE once MJ was gone. They were PASSING THAT MANTLE to G Hill!

And McHale had his shot in 89 and failed miserably. Why no smoke for him? Because he was a great scorer?

That's my point. There's scoring, then there impact. Pippen impacted the game at a high level. Higher than McHale. So what if Pippen wasn't scoring a bunch of points. The results were better. I'd rather have 20 points and win as opposed to 25 points in a loss.

Grant Hill was not better than Pippen by his second year. He was touted to take Jordan's place, but that never happened. What really did Hill do better than Pippen? For all intents and purposes, they were the same player. Except Pippen was the far better defender.

Thomas is on record saying Scottie Pippen was the second best player behind MJ. Lol.

[3ba11]

As second options, one could argue Pippen might have been better





^^^ results-oriented bullshit

MJ would've 3-peated from 88-90' with Ewing - that was Ewing's peak

MJ beats the Lakers, Celtics or Pistons with prime Ewing and Bird/Magic probably agree

MJ doubled Pippen's playoff scoring average and averaged more assists, while getting more DPOY votes every year.. Pippen is the least of what everyone needs most - scoring help - everyone in history needed juggernaut scoring help except MJ

[RogueBorg]

Why do we have to "assume" or "agree" that it was said? It was said on video many times.

Do I feel Pippen was ever the best player in the league? No. Top 3-5? Yes. From 94 to 97.

I hate to answer your question with a question, but from 94 to 96 Pippen finished top 5 in MVP and DPOY voting. How many players at any time in history can make that claim?

The Knicks wouldn't have traded Ewing for Pippen while the Bulls would have done that deal in a New York minute.

[97 bulls]

The Knicks wouldn't have traded Ewing for Pippen while the Bulls would have done that deal in a New York minute.

Prove it.

You the same one that said no one said Pippen was a top five player. I got news for you bro. You're opinion is not everyone else's.

[RogueBorg]

Why do we have to "assume" or "agree" that it was said? It was said on video many times.

Do I feel Pippen was ever the best player in the league? No. Top 3-5? Yes. From 94 to 97.

I hate to answer your question with a question, but from 94 to 96 Pippen finished top 5 in MVP and DPOY voting. How many players at any time in history can make that claim?

The Knicks wouldn't have traded Ewing for Pippen while the Bulls would have done that deal in a New York minute. Who cares if he finished top 5, he didn't win either ever same as Ewing. Pippen's best shot at winning MVP he got 7 1st place votes...7. Robinson got 24 and Olajuwon got 66, he didn't even come close. Getting named an All-Star is almost the easiest thing to do if you're a star, Pippen has 7 which is pathetic for 17 seasons while Ewing has 11 in 17. And the one year they played each other as their team's Alpha Ewing won. Switch them around, Ewing has 6 rings and is considered the best center of his era.

[kawhileonard2]

Replace Pete Myers with John Starks and the Bulls are winning the chip in 94.

Not even close

[Baller789]

Better at defense? Hell nah :lol

And outside of 2000, he was putting up virtually identical averages to prime Pippen every season.

You could say that. The difference is not that big tho.

Everything points to Grant Hill being better than Pippen barring injuries.

[Round Mound]

Ewing was better (especially 85-93) but not by much. Pippen was the glue guy in the Bulls and the best all around player for them aswell.

[97 bulls]

The Knicks wouldn't have traded Ewing for Pippen while the Bulls would have done that deal in a New York minute.
Again. Prove it. That's your opinion. And you're a Pippen hater. So your opinion is biased and ain't worth a damn.



Who cares if he finished top 5, he didn't win either ever same as Ewing. Pippen's best shot at winning MVP he got 7 1st place votes...7. Robinson got 24 and Olajuwon got 66, he didn't even come close. Getting named an All-Star is almost the easiest thing to do if you're a star, Pippen has 7 which is pathetic for 17 seasons while Ewing has 11 in 17. And the one year they played each other as their team's Alpha Ewing won. Switch them around, Ewing has 6 rings and is considered the best center of his era.

If Ewing and Pippen changed roles, you'd be arguing how Pippen is better than Ewing to protect your God Michael Jordan.

[97 bulls]

You could say that. The difference is not that big tho.

Everything points to Grant Hill being better than Pippen barring injuries.

What points to Hills being better?

[97 bulls]

Again. Prove it. That's your opinion. And you're a Pippen hater. So your opinion is biased and ain't worth a damn.




If Ewing and Pippen changed roles, you'd be arguing how Pippen is better than Ewing to protect your God Michael Jordan.

On a side note. Ewing has already been forgotten by MSG. But I'm supposed to believe that they'd take him over Pip again? After failure after failure? Derek Harper and X man both questioned Ewings leadership lol. None of Pippen's teammates ever questioned his ability to lead.
https://youtu.be/0e3KaSNVAws

[Baller789]

What points to Hills being better?

Actually watching the games.

[97 bulls]

Actually watching the games.

So your opinion. Nothing more.

[Baller789]

So your opinion. Nothing more.

Nope. You could say that when using stats as well.

[TheGoatest]

The only 90s player who was better than The Great Scott Pippen in the 1-2 seasons where he wasn't suffocated by jordon (whose departure immediately resulted in 2 x All-Stars in Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong and 7 93-94 Bulls players averaging career highs in ppg) was Hakeem Olajuwon.

[SouBeachTalents]

.
Players that made the Finals as 1st options in the 90's



MJ
Hakeem
Shaq
Malone
Barkley
Ewing
Drexler


^^^ those are the best players of the 90's... :confusedshrug:

That's how everyone viewed it at the time - those same people view it the same way now

Btw, Robinson made it in 99' as 2nd option but he probably would've been 1st over Duncan earlier in the 90's - so he's in that group too
So after droning on about how ball dominance and poor strategy by LeBron & Magic leads to lower team ceilings/losing Finals records, you’re now hyping up guys who, aside from Hakeem went 0-7 as first option in the Finals in the 90’s. You really are a giant fakkit :lol

[RogueBorg]

Again. Prove it. That's your opinion. And you're a Pippen hater. So your opinion is biased and ain't worth a damn.




If Ewing and Pippen changed roles, you'd be arguing how Pippen is better than Ewing to protect your God Michael Jordan.

I'm not a Pippen hater, I'm a Bulls fan and a fan of his back in his Bulls days. My favorite player list is;

1. Moses Malone
2. Michael Jordan
3. Dr. J
4. Bill Walton
5. David Robinson
6. Scottie Pippen

Is this being a hater?

I just can't go along with the notion Pippen was ever a top 5 player in the league. When Bird retired Pippen was the best SF in the league up until Grant Hill's 2nd season, so he had a window of about 5 years. Patrick Ewing's accolades aren't greater because he essentially came into the league with Olajuwon, who was better, and his career overlapped with Robinson and Shaq, who were also better. Had Pippen came into the league with Bird he would have zero 1st-Team All-NBA's. He played 17 seasons and only has 7 All-Star appearances. The All-Star team is about the easiest award to get if you're a great player and he only has 7. The one year he had with the Bulls as the alpha dog, he proved he really was a beta. Phil Jackson didn't even trust him enough to give him the last shot against the Knicks in the playoffs. Ewing was better, he was the alpha. Ewing suffers because the 90's was the greatest era for NBA centers and he couldn't get past the Bulls. Pippen benefits tremendously playing with Jordan in an era that was down for small forwards.

[RogueBorg]

What you all fail to realize is that growing up in that era you don't have the luxury of being able to look at the 90's through 2022 looking glasses. You don't get to know what each players final ring total is going to be, how many All-NBA's or MVP's or All-Stars each player will end up with. But at the time, this is the key, at that time we all used to debate who was the best players, best teams etc. just like we do now. But I'm telling you, back in those days the consensus top players in the league were Jordan, Olajuwon, Shaq, Barkley, Malone, Robinson, Ewing. By the mid-90's, the 1.8 fiasco was still fresh in our minds. Losing to the hated Knicks when the team was his was a huge knock. The migraine in game 7 vs. Detroit was fresh in our minds and a huge knock. He had a reputation of not showing up in the biggest moments which seems to have been forgotten.

[97 bulls]

I'm not a Pippen hater, I'm a Bulls fan and a fan of his back in his Bulls days. My favorite player list is;

1. Moses Malone
2. Michael Jordan
3. Dr. J
4. Bill Walton
5. David Robinson
6. Scottie Pippen

Is this being a hater?

I just can't go along with the notion Pippen was ever a top 5 player in the league. When Bird retired Pippen was the best SF in the league up until Grant Hill's 2nd season, so he had a window of about 5 years. Patrick Ewing's accolades aren't greater because he essentially came into the league with Olajuwon, who was better, and his career overlapped with Robinson and Shaq, who were also better. Had Pippen came into the league with Bird he would have zero 1st-Team All-NBA's. He played 17 seasons and only has 7 All-Star appearances. The All-Star team is about the easiest award to get if you're a great player and he only has 7. The one year he had with the Bulls as the alpha dog, he proved he really was a beta. Phil Jackson didn't even trust him enough to give him the last shot against the Knicks in the playoffs. Ewing was better, he was the alpha. Ewing suffers because the 90's was the greatest era for NBA centers and he couldn't get past the Bulls. Pippen benefits tremendously playing with Jordan in an era that was down for small forwards.

This is dumb logic. It's not like Ewing shared accolades with Olajuwan. Olajuwan was just flat out better.

If Ewing plays with MJ, you wouldn't be considering him as an alpha.

Jackson picking Kukoc doesn't make Pippen a beta. Jackson gave Pippen a shot before that play and Kukoc messed it up. Jackson gave Kukoc the nod over Jordan to take the last shot as well in game 5 of the 98 Finals.

[97 bulls]

What you all fail to realize is that growing up in that era you don't have the luxury of being able to look at the 90's through 2022 looking glasses. You don't get to know what each players final ring total is going to be, how many All-NBA's or MVP's or All-Stars each player will end up with. But at the time, this is the key, at that time we all used to debate who was the best players, best teams etc. just like we do now. But I'm telling you, back in those days the consensus top players in the league were Jordan, Olajuwon, Shaq, Barkley, Malone, Robinson, Ewing. By the mid-90's, the 1.8 fiasco was still fresh in our minds. Losing to the hated Knicks when the team was his was a huge knock. The migraine in game 7 vs. Detroit was fresh in our minds and a huge knock. He had a reputation of not showing up in the biggest moments which seems to have been forgotten.

This is typical Pippen hater talk. The 1.8 seconds. The migraine game. Pippen never stepped up. Just man up and admit you don't like Pippen.

No real Bulls fan would say Pippen never stepped up when the Bulls needed him. That's just a flat out lie. What about the 91 Finals when Pippen took the defensive duties from Jordan on Magic because Jordan got in foul trouble?

Or 92 Finals game 6 when Pippen led the Bulls charge and got the Bulls back in the game while Jordan was on the bench?

Or the 93 ECF when Pippen outplayed Jordan because Jordan was playing with an injured hand?

Or 94 a d 95 when Pippen stepped up and kept the Bulls competitive when Jordan abruptly retired?

Or the 98 Finals game 3?

How can a so-called Pippen fan and Bulls fan say Pippen never stepped up? You ought to be ashamed of yourself.

[8Ball]

The only 90s player who was better than The Great Scott Pippen in the 1-2 seasons where he wasn't suffocated by jordon (whose departure immediately resulted in 2 x All-Stars in Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong and 7 93-94 Bulls players averaging career highs in ppg) was Hakeem Olajuwon.

I agree, but I gotta put Shaq in there as well. 2nd year Shaq was already better than Pippen in 1994. But Pippen was a top 5 player in 1994.

[RogueBorg]

This is dumb logic. It's not like Ewing shared accolades with Olajuwan. Olajuwan was just flat out better.



I'm not arguing who's better, everyone knows Olajuwon's better than Ewing. But there's only one position for center to make 1st-Team All-NBA while there's 2 for forwards. If there was only 1 available position at F Pippen might not have any 1st Team All-NBA's, maybe 1 in '94. Ewing had to go up against Olajuwon, Shaq, and Robinson and he suffers because of it. But that doesn't take away from his greatness. He still was an 11-time All-Star. Had there never been those guys, Ewing makes 1st-Team All-NBA every year.

And just because I'm a Pippen fan doesn't mean I have to drink the Pippen Kool-aid. We can almost make the same argument for David Robinson. How many times did he fail? How many times did he come up short? Alot. But I can be a fan and at the same time point out a players flaws.

[RogueBorg]

If Ewing and Pippen changed roles, you'd be arguing how Pippen is better than Ewing to protect your God Michael Jordan.

First, Moses is my favorite player, the Bulls are my favorite team. If Pippen and Ewing changed teams? No way because I don't think Pippen was better. If Ewing was traded to the Bulls in '87 instead of Pippen, I think Chicago wins 5 straight titles from '88 to '93 and Ewing immediately vaults ahead of Robinson and has a legitimate argument to be compared to Olajuwon and Shaq.

[3ba11]

This is typical Pippen hater talk. The 1.8 seconds. The migraine game. Pippen never stepped up. Just man up and admit you don't like Pippen.

No real Bulls fan would say Pippen never stepped up when the Bulls needed him. That's just a flat out lie. What about the 91 Finals when Pippen took the defensive duties from Jordan on Magic because Jordan got in foul trouble?

Or 92 Finals game 6 when Pippen led the Bulls charge and got the Bulls back in the game while Jordan was on the bench?

Or the 93 ECF when Pippen outplayed Jordan because Jordan was playing with an injured hand?

Or 94 a d 95 when Pippen stepped up and kept the Bulls competitive when Jordan abruptly retired?

Or the 98 Finals game 3?

How can a so-called Pippen fan and Bulls fan say Pippen never stepped up? You ought to be ashamed of yourself.


Pippen didn't lead any charge in the 92' Finals - Jordan returned and hit every big shot, otherwise Bobby Hansen was hitting more shots than Pippen

Also, in Game 3 of the 93' ECF, Jordan scored 8 points and 6 assists in the 1st quarter to get the Bulls a big lead while Pippen did nothing - the rest of the game was garbage time, which is why it was reported as another Jordan victory

So you're just lying about everything... And Pippen disappeara in all the closeout games of the 98' Finals, 96' Finals, 90' ECF and 89' ECF - he literally has single digit points in like 6 closeout games... The guy was a bum..

Everyone in history needed juggernaut scoring help, so Pippen provided the least of what everyone needs most - scoring help

[97 bulls]

I'm not arguing who's better, everyone knows Olajuwon's better than Ewing. But there's only one position for center to make 1st-Team All-NBA while there's 2 for forwards. If there was only 1 available position at F Pippen might not have any 1st Team All-NBA's, maybe 1 in '94. Ewing had to go up against Olajuwon, Shaq, and Robinson and he suffers because of it. But that doesn't take away from his greatness. He still was an 11-time All-Star. Had there never been those guys, Ewing makes 1st-Team All-NBA every year.
Bro. Theres more forwards in the league as well. Its simple math. To make the argument that Pippen doesnt _____ if a player thats considered better is there goes both ways. How many all nba teams does Bird win if hes playing in the same league with Lebron James and Kevin Durant?


just because I'm a Pippen fan doesn't mean I have to drink the Pippen Kool-aid.
You said Pippen never stepped up when the Bulls needed him. Admitting that Pippen played a huge roll in the Bulls success is drinking Pippen Kool-aid. But ignoring his role is definitely being a hater.



We can almost make the same argument for David Robinson. How many times did he fail? How many times did he come up short? Alot. But I can be a fan and at the same time point out a players flaws.

All I'm saying is Pippen had 1 year as the man and he was on those guys level. I believe he would've won an MVP a DPOY and maybe even a fluke championship like a Wade or Nowitzki had he had 10 years as the man like they had.

[97 bulls]

First, Moses is my favorite player, the Bulls are my favorite team. If Pippen and Ewing changed teams? No way because I don't think Pippen was better. If Ewing was traded to the Bulls in '87 instead of Pippen, I think Chicago wins 5 straight titles from '88 to '93 and Ewing immediately vaults ahead of Robinson and has a legitimate argument to be compared to Olajuwon and Shaq.

I agree. But he's not gonna be the same Ewing because he's playing behind Jordan. How are you not getting this? The same thing you're penalizing Pippen for (playing alongside the GOAT) would be the same thing you'd be penalizing Ewing for.

[RogueBorg]

The only 90s player who was better than The Great Scott Pippen in the 1-2 seasons where he wasn't suffocated by jordon (whose departure immediately resulted in 2 x All-Stars in Horace Grant and BJ Armstrong and 7 93-94 Bulls players averaging career highs in ppg) was Hakeem Olajuwon.

What case does Pippen have over Robinson? In the time frame you're referring to ('93-'95) The Admiral has an MVP and scoring title, Pippen has neither. He was 10x All-NBA to Pipp's 7x, 10x All-Star to Pipp's 7x, he has a DPOY, MVP, a scoring title, Rookie of the Year, Pipp does beat him in All-Defensive 10x to 8x, Robinson has the superior stats, led the league in blocks.

Pippen has no case over David Robinson.

[3ba11]

Pippen is the only 90's sidekick that wasn't a go-to player that could dominate - he's the only sidekick that wasn't a threat for elite production, so only Jordan faced maximum defensive attention (carried scoring load).

Terry Porter carried the Blazers in the 92' WCF with 26/5/8 on 54% (53% threes on 6 attempts).

Porter had numerous series where he achieved elite stats and led the team - every sidekick did except Pippen.

KJ averaged 27/5/9 in 2 different 7 game series against Hakeem where Barkley was 2nd option.. KJ also upset Magic's 1 seed in 90' with 23/11 stats.

Penny/Shaq or Payton/Kemp took turns achieving dominant stats and leading their teams.. Kemp nearly won FMVP from Jordan in 96'.

Stockton averaged 21/11 in the 97' WCF and hit the series walk-off in Barkley's face - when did Pippen average 20/10 like Stockton, Tim Hardaway, Payton or KJ?.. Pippen had low ppg and apg among 90's sidekicks..

[RogueBorg]

I agree. But he's not gonna be the same Ewing because he's playing behind Jordan. How are you not getting this? The same thing you're penalizing Pippen for (playing alongside the GOAT) would be the same thing you'd be penalizing Ewing for.

He'd be penalized for not having GOAT rings but they would be better than having no rings. I think his reputation gets bumped just like Pippen's has playing alongside Jordan on those Bulls.

[bizil]

IF MJ was playing with guys like Shaq, Barkley, Malone, Dream, Pat, or Robinson INSTEAD of Pip, it would TOTALLY COME ACROSS as two alpha dog scorers PLAYING TOGETHER! Hell in certain seasons, I could see those types of guys POSSIBLY leading the Bulls in scoring over MJ. While MJ WOULD STILL BE SEEN as the best player in the world. Same could apply for a Bird or Nique.

The VALUE of Pippen was the FACT he could be the dominant floor game guy (boards, dimes, defense) on the Bulls. While MJ could save energy to score WHILE still having a great floor game himself. BEFORE Pip came of age, MJ HAD TO BE the dominant scorer AND floor game guy for the Bulls to compete. Hell AT ONE POINT getting 32-8-8 while providing world class DPOY caliber defense. So MJ had was the best scorer in the world AND had the best floor game in the world! Pip's floor game GOT to the level of MJ's eventually! So MJ could fall back some in that regard.

IF MJ played with Ewing, it would be the OPPOSITE approach! MJ's floor game would have to STEP UP! He would have to check the top perimeter players more often. He would have to be the top assists guy. BUT on the flip side, Ewing could DOMINATE scoring the rock. And ALLOW MJ to save energy on that end.

[RogueBorg]

All I'm saying is Pippen had 1 year as the man and he was on those guys level. I believe he would've won an MVP a DPOY and maybe even a fluke championship like a Wade or Nowitzki had he had 10 years as the man like they had.

Fair enough, I can't say you're wrong.

[RogueBorg]

IF MJ was playing with guys like Shaq, Barkley, Malone, Dream, Pat, or Robinson INSTEAD of Pip, it would TOTALLY COME ACROSS as two alpha dog scorers PLAYING TOGETHER! Hell in certain seasons, I could see those types of guys POSSIBLY leading the Bulls in scoring over MJ. While MJ WOULD STILL BE SEEN as the best player in the world. Same could apply for a Bird or Nique.

The VALUE of Pippen was the FACT he could be the dominant floor game guy (boards, dimes, defense) on the Bulls. While MJ could save energy to score WHILE still having a great floor game himself. BEFORE Pip came of age, MJ HAD TO BE the dominant scorer AND floor game guy for the Bulls to compete. Hell AT ONE POINT getting 32-8-8 while providing world class DPOY caliber defense. So MJ had was the best scorer in the world AND had the best floor game in the world! Pip's floor game GOT to the level of MJ's eventually! So MJ could fall back some in that regard.

IF MJ played with Ewing, it would be the OPPOSITE approach! MJ's floor game would have to STEP UP! He would have to check the top perimeter players more often. He would have to be the top assists guy. BUT on the flip side, Ewing could DOMINATE scoring the rock. And ALLOW MJ to save energy on that end.

These are all good points.

[97 bulls]

Pippen didn't lead any charge in the 92' Finals - Jordan returned and hit every big shot, otherwise Bobby Hansen was hitting more shots than Pippen

Also, in Game 3 of the 93' ECF, Jordan scored 8 points and 6 assists in the 1st quarter to get the Bulls a big lead while Pippen did nothing - the rest of the game was garbage time, which is why it was reported as another Jordan victory

So you're just lying about everything... And Pippen disappeara in all the closeout games of the 98' Finals, 96' Finals, 90' ECF and 89' ECF - he literally has single digit points in like 6 closeout games... The guy was a bum..

Everyone in history needed juggernaut scoring help, so Pippen provided the least of what everyone needs most - scoring help

Bobby Hansen made 1 shot. Pippen scored 11 pts in the 4th quarter. He hit the go ahead shot.

The rest of the stuff you're saying is intellectual dishonesty in the purest form.

[3ba11]

IF MJ was playing with guys like Shaq, Barkley, Malone, Dream, Pat, or Robinson INSTEAD of Pip, it would TOTALLY COME ACROSS as two alpha dog scorers PLAYING TOGETHER! Hell in certain seasons, I could see those types of guys POSSIBLY leading the Bulls in scoring over MJ. While MJ WOULD STILL BE SEEN as the best player in the world. Same could apply for a Bird or Nique.

The VALUE of Pippen was the FACT he could be the dominant floor game guy (boards, dimes, defense) on the Bulls. While MJ could say energy to score WHILE still having a great floor game himself. BEFORE Pip came of age, MJ HAD TO BE the dominant scorer AND floor game guy for the Bulls to compete. Hell AT ONE POINT getting 32-8-8 while providing world class DPOY caliber defense. So MJ had was the best scorer in the world AND had the best floor game in the world! Pip's floor game GOT to the level of MJ's eventually! So MJ could fall back some in that regard.

IF MJ played with Ewing, it would be the OPPOSITE approach! MJ's floor game would have to STEP UP! He would have to check the top perimeter players more often. He would have to be the top assists guy. BUT on the flip side, Ewing could DOMINATE scoring the rock. And ALLOW MJ to save energy on that end.


MJ was usually the primary defender on the opponent's top player like Magic, Drexler, Miller, or Payton, while averaging more assists than Pippen for their Finals career, playoff career, and regular season career

So you guys are just lying about Pippen and lionizing his 5 apg when literally everyone averaged more assists like other 90's sidekicks (KJ, Payton, Hardaway, Penny) or Lebron's sidekicks (Wade, Kyrie, Westbrook)

And when did Pippen average 8+ apg? So how is he on MJ's level as a passer?.. MJ was considered a better point guard then Magic when he averaged 30/9/11 at point guard in 89' - Pippen is nowhere near this - MJ was the only option if the Bulls needed elite apg.. Where was Pippen in the 91' Finals - Jordan dwarfed him in ppg, apg and guarded Magic twice as much.

MJ doubled Pippen's scoring and still averaged more assists, while getting more DPOY votes every year - no one in history is anywhere near this load

[bizil]

Posters gotta realize the dynasty teams had MULTIPLE HOFers on them! Going back the Celtics in the 60's. U go the Lakers and Celtics in the 80's! Bulls in the 90's. Shaq-Kobe Lakers in the 2000s. Spurs later on. And the Warriors most recently.

So Pip DOESN'T get penalized for being part of a DYNASTY! If you do that, ALL THE LEGENDS in the dynasties I named should take a hit. The most NEGATIVE THING you could say about Pip is the FACT he's not an alpha dog caliber scorer. NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT! And he's still a legend.

Magic was a very average man on man defender. Russell was NEVER an alpha dog scorer. Stockton NEVER WAS. Kidd NEVER WAS! Reggie Miller was a piss poor rebounder for a 6'7 SG. My point is EVEN THE LEGENDS have certain things they aren't great at. Pointing out the fact Pip was never an alpha dog ISN'T A DISS! It's a FACT! Some of you Pip fans need to get OUTTA your damn feelings!

[97 bulls]

Posters gotta realize the dynasty teams had MULTIPLE HOFers on them! Going back the Celtics in the 60's. U go the Lakers and Celtics in the 80's! Bulls in the 90's. Shaq-Kobe Lakers in the 2000s. Spurs later on. And the Warriors most recently.

So Pip DOESN'T get penalized for being part of a DYNASTY! If you do that, ALL THE LEGENDS in the dynasties I named should take a hit. The most NEGATIVE THING you could say about Pip is the FACT he's not an alpha dog caliber scorer. NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT! And he's still a legend.

Magic was a very average man on man defender. Russell was NEVER an alpha dog scorer. Stockton NEVER WAS. Kidd NEVER WAS! Reggie Miller was a piss poor rebounder for a 6'7 SG. My point is EVEN THE LEGENDS have certain things they aren't great at. Pointing out the fact Pip was never an alpha dog ISN'T A DISS! It's a FACT! Some of you Pip fans need to get OUTTA your damn feelings!

But those points NEVER get brought up. Only Pippen's perceived weaknesses are. Guys like Worthy and McHale were great players. And when their named is mentioned, it's never them being penalized for not winning as an "alpha". EVEN THOUGH THEY NEVER DID@!@@!!! Pippen did better than both of those guys and yet he's held to a higher standard. Like I said Bizil, I've never seen you crack on McHale or Worthy for posting out their shortcomings in leading a team like you do Pippen.

[tpols]

Well in 1994 we had the perfect experiment for this. Pippen was at his peak, both Ewing and Pippen had 2 All Star teammates a piece ~ equal casts and Ewing totally outplayed Pippen and nearly went up 3-0 on him.

In fact, in every playoff series Pippen and Ewing ever played against each other prime for prime Ewing out produced and outplayed Pippen while being an all time great defender himself.

There s not a single shred of evidence that Pippen was on Pat Ewings level.

[3ba11]

. The most NEGATIVE THING you could say about Pip is the FACT he's not an alpha dog caliber scorer. NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT! .





2nd options must score - that's the definition of 2nd option

Every other sidekick was an elite scorer except Pippen

Everyone in history needed juggernaut scoring help, so Pippen provided the least of what everyone needs most - scoring help

[3ba11]

But those points NEVER get brought up. Only Pippen's perceived weaknesses are. Guys like Worthy and McHale were great players. And when their named is mentioned, it's never them being penalized for not winning as an "alpha". EVEN THOUGH THEY NEVER DID@!@@!!! Pippen did better than both of those guys and yet he's held to a higher standard. Like I said Bizil, I've never seen you crack on McHale or Worthy for posting out their shortcomings in leading a team like you do Pippen.


2nd options must be great scorers and nearly all of them were except Pippen

Jordan is the only guy that had to carry that load, which means Pippen sucked

Pippen never reached peak-Horry level in 6 Finals..., 0/6.. That was Pippen's caliber - shy of peak Horry

[bizil]

MJ was usually the primary defender on the opponent's top player like Magic, Drexler, Miller, or Payton, while averaging more assists than Pippen for their Finals career, playoff career, and regular season career

So you guys are just lying about Pippen and lionizing his 5 apg when literally everyone averaged more assists like other 90's sidekicks (KJ, Payton, Hardaway, Penny) or Lebron's sidekicks (Wade, Kyrie, Westbrook)

And when did Pippen average 8+ apg? So how is he on MJ's level as a passer?.. MJ was considered a better point guard then Magic when he averaged 30/9/11 at point guard in 89' - Pippen is nowhere near this - MJ was the only option if the Bulls needed elite apg

MJ doubled Pippen's scoring and still averaged more assists - no one in history is anywhere near this load

TOTALLY missed my damn point! MJ STILL guarded the top perimeter players at times. BUT it wasn't NECESSARY for MJ to do it AS OFTEN AS HE USED TO! Because Pip had was a great defender. And had a great FLOOR GAME HIMSELF! I hope you realize Pip average at least 5 dimes in his career 12 times. MJ averaged at least 5 dimes 9 times! MJ averaged 5.3 dimes for his career. While Pip averaged 5.2. BASICALLY a wash! BOTH are among the top passers EVER at their respective positions.

ONCE Pip came of age, they ACTUALLY took dimes AWAY FROM EACH OTHER! MJ and Pip BOTH could have had multiple 8 assists seasons. But in that Bulls triangle and being among the best passers EVER at their positions, there was no need to do that. Pip's floor game (passing, defense, rebounding) was ABSOLUTELY on MJ's level. MJ's scoring was the GOAT among perimeter players. The SCORING was the huge difference between the two. Floor game wise, they were TOP TWO in the world at one point. Them BEING ON THE SAME SQUAD was set off the Bulls dynasty. League had NEVER had that BRAND of combo on the same team before!

[bizil]

But those points NEVER get brought up. Only Pippen's perceived weaknesses are. Guys like Worthy and McHale were great players. And when their named is mentioned, it's never them being penalized for not winning as an "alpha". EVEN THOUGH THEY NEVER DID@!@@!!! Pippen did better than both of those guys and yet he's held to a higher standard. Like I said Bizil, I've never seen you crack on McHale or Worthy for posting out their shortcomings in leading a team like you do Pippen.

I do it when people say Pip was the best player in the world at one point. Or a top 3 player in the world at one point. I just never viewed Pip on that level. From there, I give my reasons why. Was Pip the top SF in the world at one point? YES! Did he totally redefine the position? YEST! Was the best all around player in the league at one point? YES! So I give Pip his props! Just think when people way he was a top 3 player in the world at one point, I got an issue with that. Hell I don't think he was even top at one point. BUT he was top 7 at one point in my opinion.

[3ba11]

TOTALLY missed my damn point! MJ STILL guarded the top perimeter players at times. BUT it wasn't NECESSARY for MJ to do it AS OFTEN AS HE USED TO! Because Pip had was a great defender. And had a great FLOOR GAME HIMSELF! I hope you realize Pip average at least 5 dimes in his career 12 times. MJ averaged at least 5 dimes 9 times! MJ averaged 5.3 dimes for his career. While Pip averaged 5.2. BASICALLY a wash! BOTH are among the top passers EVER at their respective positions.

ONCE Pip came of age, they ACTUALLY took dimes AWAY FROM EACH OTHER! MJ and Pip BOTH could have had multiple 8 assists seasons. But in that Bulls triangle and being among the best passers EVER at their positions, there was no need to do that. Pip's floor game (passing, defense, rebounding) was ABSOLUTELY on MJ's level. MJ's scoring was the GOAT among perimeter players. The SCORING was the huge difference between the two. Floor game wise, they were TOP TWO in the world at one point. Them BEING ON THE SAME SQUAD was set off the Bulls dynasty. League had NEVER had that BRAND of combo on the same team before!


Pippen had a basic handle and couldn't break anyone down off-the-dribble, so he couldn't achieve elite APG.

Otoh, MJ had elite passing ability and could average 10 apg whenever he wanted.. Do you realize that MJ was a 30/9/11 point guard in his first try at the position at 26 years old? That's goat talent.

The media said that MJ was a better point guard then Magic when he played PG in 89' - Pippen is nowhere near this - MJ was the only option if the Bulls needed elite apg

MJ doubled Pippen's scoring and still averaged more assists and DPOY votes - no one in history is anywhere near this load

[RogueBorg]

But those points NEVER get brought up. Only Pippen's perceived weaknesses are. Guys like Worthy and McHale were great players. And when their named is mentioned, it's never them being penalized for not winning as an "alpha". EVEN THOUGH THEY NEVER DID@!@@!!! Pippen did better than both of those guys and yet he's held to a higher standard. Like I said Bizil, I've never seen you crack on McHale or Worthy for posting out their shortcomings in leading a team like you do Pippen.

When's the last time you saw a topic dedicated to Worthy and McHale?

[La Frescobaldi]

2nd options must score - that's the definition of 2nd option

Every other sidekick was an elite scorer except Pippen

Everyone in history needed juggernaut scoring help, so Pippen provided the least of what everyone needs most - scoring help

Without even looking.
2000 era Spurs Mavericks Lakers all looking down at the filthy liar 3ball from a great height as they laugh at his
prostrate
and broken desperation
frantic ankle biting

frenzied face of futility.

[3ba11]

Without even looking.
2000 era Spurs Mavericks Lakers all looking down at the filthy liar 3ball from a great height as they laugh at his
prostrate
and broken desperation
frantic ankle biting

frenzied face of futility.


Everyone in history had teammates average more than 22 ppg and lead numerous series, except Pippen (6 rings) and a couple one-offs like Gasol or Jason Terry or Rip Hamilton

[bizil]

When's the last time you saw a topic dedicated to Worthy and McHale?

Exactly! And nobody EVER SAID Worthy or McHale was a top 3-5 player in the league at one point. Pip catches heat BECAUSE many claim Pip was a top 3-5 player in the league at one point. When you look at the players in the league at that time, it DOESN'T add up. It BAFFLES ME how people can't accept the fact that being a top 7-10 caliber player in the league is a GREAT SPOT to be in! If somebody said Steph Curry was the 6th best player in the league right now, there WOULDN'T be a huge uproar. Because u got Giannis, KD, Joker, Embid, and Bron on the ticket! But Pip being in that same area give or take cause a HUGE UPROAR among Pippen fans! LMAO

[3ba11]

Exactly! And nobody EVER SAID Worthy or McHale was a top 3-5 player in the league at one point. Pip catches heat BECAUSE many claim Pip was a top 3-5 player in the league at one point. When you look at the players in the league at that time, it DOESN'T add up. It BAFFLES ME how people can't accept the fact that being a top 7-10 caliber player in the league is a GREAT SPOT to be in! If somebody said Steph Curry was the 6th best player in the league right now, there WOULDN'T be a huge uproar. Because u got Giannis, KD, Joker, Embid, and Bron on the ticket! But Pip being in that same area give or take cause a HUGE UPROAR among Pippen fans! LMAO


Pippen's career timeline shows that he was propped up by the triangle and dynasty chemistry - otherwise, he was a 14 ppg dunker that couldn't score (system player)

The notion that he was a top 10 player is literally preposterous - he never reached peak-Horry level, yet he's top 10?.. Absurd

People are simply fooled by the winning spotlight and when someone points this out, they lack the self-confidence to think outside of the box they're in

[bizil]

Pippen had a basic handle and couldn't break anyone down off-the-dribble, so he couldn't achieve elite APG.

Otoh, MJ had elite passing ability and could average 10 apg whenever he wanted.. Do you realize that MJ was a 30/9/11 point guard in his first try at the position at 26 years old? That's goat talent.

The media said that MJ was a better point guard then Magic when he played PG in 89' - Pippen is nowhere near this - MJ was the only option if the Bulls needed elite apg

MJ doubled Pippen's scoring and still averaged more assists and DPOY votes - no one in history is anywhere near this load

THING is MJ was NEVER a better floor general than Magic. As a player, SURE MJ was better. It's like comparing Curry to CP3. SURE Curry is the better player in general. But CP3 is CLEARLY the better floor general. And MJ was a SCORE FIRST PG when he was doing that. Nothing wrong with that. BUT the Bulls were doing that OUTTA necessity! MJ was BETTER off at the SG. Magic was BORN to play the PG!

[bizil]

Pippen's career timeline shows that he was propped up by the triangle and dynasty chemistry - otherwise, he was a 14 ppg dunker that couldn't score

The notion that he was a top 10 player is literally preposterous - he never reached peak-Horry level, yet he's top 10?.. Absurd

People are simply fooled by the winning spotlight and when someone points this out, they lack the self-confidence to think outside of the box they're in

You're a CLOWN!!

[3ba11]

THING is MJ was NEVER a better floor general than Magic. As a player, SURE MJ was better. It's like comparing Curry to CP3. SURE Curry is the better player in general. But CP3 is CLEARLY the better floor general. And MJ was a SCORE FIRST PG when he was doing that. Nothing wrong with that. BUT the Bulls were doing that OUTTA necessity! MJ was BETTER off at the SG. Magic was BORN to play the PG!


Magic was a better PG than 89' Jordan

I was just making that point to illustrate how great a passer Jordan was - in his first try at PG, people were already saying he was like Magic and he was producing more than Magic ever did at PG

But Magic was the better passer of course.. It's just that Jordan was elite too - he could've averaged Magic/CP3 assist levels and did exactly that in his first try at the position.. Pippen doesn't compare to elite passing levels like this.. if Pippen's 5 apg helped Jordan, than what would the 10-15 apg of Stockton, KJ, or Hardaway do?...

[RogueBorg]

Exactly! And nobody EVER SAID Worthy or McHale was a top 3-5 player in the league at one point. Pip catches heat BECAUSE many claim Pip was a top 3-5 player in the league at one point. When you look at the players in the league at that time, it DOESN'T add up. It BAFFLES ME how people can't accept the fact that being a top 7-10 caliber player in the league is a GREAT SPOT to be in! If somebody said Steph Curry was the 6th best player in the league right now, there WOULDN'T be a huge uproar. Because u got Giannis, KD, Joker, Embid, and Bron on the ticket! But Pip being in that same area give or take cause a HUGE UPROAR among Pippen fans! LMAO

I think the only reason this is going on is because this forum is caught in the death spiral of Lebron vs. Jordan. On one side the Lebronstans elevate Lebron by saying their hero never played with anyone by degrading Jordan because he played with the great Scottie Pippen. On the flip side, Jordanstans have to say Pippen is not as great as you all are making him out to be which to them comes across as saying Pippen wasn't great. There are two posters in this same topic claiming only Olajuwon and/or Shaq were the only players better than Pippen. So there's this endless back and forth tugging on Scottie Pippen and he's caught in the middle. Pippen was a great player who had alot of flaws, much like David Robinson, but who doesn't have flaws for crying out loud.

[97 bulls]

When's the last time you saw a topic dedicated to Worthy and McHale?

There's topics in here right now that are putting McHale on the same level as Duncan and and Malone.

Worthy is always looked at as a player that could've done more in a different scenario.

And I don't necessarily disagree with the notion that they couldn't have led a team to a championship. But all three had 1 year as the man, and Pippen did the best.

[97 bulls]

�� lol

[RogueBorg]

There's topics in here right now that are putting McHale on the same level as Duncan and and Malone.

Worthy is always looked at as a player that could've done more in a different scenario.

And I don't necessarily disagree with the notion that they couldn't have led a team to a championship. But all three had 1 year as the man, and Pippen did the best.

Okaaay, I don't disagree with any of that. I told you, I am a Pippen fan.

[3ba11]

I think the only reason this is going on is because this forum is caught in the death spiral of Lebron vs. Jordan. On one side the Lebronstans elevate Lebron by saying their hero never played with anyone by degrading Jordan because he played with the great Scottie Pippen. On the flip side, Jordanstans have to say Pippen is not as great as you all are making him out to be which to them comes across as saying Pippen wasn't great. There are two posters in this same topic claiming only Olajuwon and/or Shaq were the only players better than Pippen. So there's this endless back and forth tugging on Scottie Pippen and he's caught in the middle. Pippen was a great player who had alot of flaws, much like David Robinson, but who doesn't have flaws for crying out loud.


I'm not on here just flippantly saying Pippen sucked - I'm pointing to the historical record that confirms it

Pippen never dominated... Ever.... Every other sidekick did because nearly all of them were elite scorers..

Everyone needed juggernaut scoring help except Jordan - scoring MATTERS because everyone needed a ton of it.. except Jordan because Jordan could carry the scoring load

Specifically, everyone in history had teammates match or lead the scoring for entire playoff runs, while Jordan led Pippen in every SERIES by 10-30 ppg.

So it isn't close - Pippen is nowhere near the help that everyone else had

[tpols]

Exactly! And nobody EVER SAID Worthy or McHale was a top 3-5 player in the league at one point. Pip catches heat BECAUSE many claim Pip was a top 3-5 player in the league at one point. When you look at the players in the league at that time, it DOESN'T add up. It BAFFLES ME how people can't accept the fact that being a top 7-10 caliber player in the league is a GREAT SPOT to be in! If somebody said Steph Curry was the 6th best player in the league right now, there WOULDN'T be a huge uproar. Because u got Giannis, KD, Joker, Embid, and Bron on the ticket! But Pip being in that same area give or take cause a HUGE UPROAR among Pippen fans! LMAO

Woah... Curry has won league MVPs and been the engine for dynasty championship winning teams. I can't let you get away with comparing him to Pippen or even Embiid who has done nothing but lead 2nd round teams once or twice. I have to check you on this one bro. This isnt gonna fly.

[theman93]

But those points NEVER get brought up. Only Pippen's perceived weaknesses are. Guys like Worthy and McHale were great players. And when their named is mentioned, it's never them being penalized for not winning as an "alpha". EVEN THOUGH THEY NEVER DID@!@@!!! Pippen did better than both of those guys and yet he's held to a higher standard. Like I said Bizil, I've never seen you crack on McHale or Worthy for posting out their shortcomings in leading a team like you do Pippen.

Uhh...Pippen is held to a higher standard because he's touted as a top 3-5 player of his era around here. If Worthy and McHale were being touted at that level you would also see everyone picking apart their careers.

[RogueBorg]

I'm not on here just flippantly saying Pippen sucked - I'm pointing to the historical record that confirms it

Pippen never dominated... Ever.... Every other sidekick did because nearly all of them were elite scorers..

Everyone needed juggernaut scoring help except Jordan - scoring MATTERS because everyone needed a ton of it.. except Jordan because Jordan could carry the scoring load

Specifically, everyone in history had teammates match or lead the scoring for entire playoff runs, while Jordan led Pippen in every SERIES by 10-30 ppg.

So it isn't close - Pippen is nowhere near the help that everyone else had

I agree you really think that about Pippen, but I really think you wouldn't have this infatuation with Pippen if there was no Lebron James. If Lebron never existed and the the debate was straight up Kobe vs Michael for who was the GOAT, I don't think you'd spend an ounce of energy going on about Pippen.

Am I wrong?

[97 bulls]

You're a CLOWN!!

Lol

[RogueBorg]

Uhh...Pippen is held to a higher standard because he's touted as a top 3-5 player of his era around here. If Worthy and McHale were being touted at that level you would also see everyone picking apart their careers.

That's right.

[3ba11]

I agree you really think that about Pippen, but I really think you wouldn't have this infatuation with Pippen if there was no Lebron James. If Lebron never existed and the the debate was straight up Kobe vs Michael for who was the GOAT, I don't think you'd spend an ounce of energy going on about Pippen.

Am I wrong?


Any debate that sings Pippen's praises will annoy me because Pippen is literally the most overrated player ever - he has the biggest gap between his stats (low) and historical ranking (high), so he benefitted from winning spotlight more than anyone ever

It's intuitive - Jordan was literally carrying him in every series (10-30 more than Pippen in every series) - no one in history had to carry their sidekick like that because every other sidekick could dominate and achieve elite stats.. Pippen literally couldn't reach peak-Horry level in 6 Finals (0/6)

[RogueBorg]

Any debate that sings Pippen's praises will annoy me because Pippen is literally the most overrated player ever - he has the biggest gap between his stats (low) and historical ranking (high), so he benefitted from winning spotlight more than anyone ever

It's intuitive - Jordan was literally carrying him in every series (10-30 more than Pippen in every series) - no one in history had to carry their sidekick like that because every other sidekick could dominate and achieve elite stats.. Pippen literally couldn't reach peak-Horry level in 6 Finals (0/6)

We have a guy at work here in his mid-50's, big NBA fan, Lakers fan, I asked him what he thought about Pippen. He says quote, "Scottie Pippen is the single most over-rated player of all-time."

[bizil]

Woah... Curry has won league MVPs and been the engine for dynasty championship winning teams. I can't let you get away with comparing him to Pippen or even Embiid who has done nothing but lead 2nd round teams once or twice. I have to check you on this one bro. This isnt gonna fly.

You missed MY POINT! My point was IN GENERAL Steph is regarded as the 6th best player in the league by many. I have him at that spot. And MOST people think that's a fair place for him to be ranked as of now. CONSIDERING you have Giannis, KD, Joker, Embid, and Bron.

Back in the day, Pip was a top 7 player IN GENERAL at one point! But MANY Pip fans can't ACCEPT THAT! And say he was a top 3-5 guy FOR SURE! Which ISN'T TRUE! They act like a top 7 player ISN'T a great place to be! I NEVER SAID Pip was on the level of Steph. I"M NO FOOL!!! Learn to comprehend shit!

Steph is EASILY the superior player. But RANKING WISE, Steph and Pip in their RESPECTIVE ERAS were rated around the same place at ONE POINT! That DOESN'T mean they were the same caliber of player. It's just where they were RATED among their peers at the time.

My point was if there is NO UPROAR for a player of Steph's caliber being a top 6 in the world,then WHY THE uproar for Pip being around that level (ranking wise at that time, not as a player in comparison to Steph) back in the day!

[La Frescobaldi]

Everyone in history had teammates average more than 22 ppg and lead numerous series, except Pippen (6 rings) and a couple one-offs like Gasol or Jason Terry or Rip Hamilton

It isn’t a couple one offs it’s a bunch of teams. Lots.

You’re knowingly trying to make a point which is stupid right on its face.

[3ba11]

.
Every duo in history was close statistically except MJ/Pippen, who weren't any more of a "duo" than Hakeem/Horry or Dirk/Terry:



PLAYOFFS

94' Hakeem...... 27.7 PER.... 8.5 BPM... 2.6 VORP... 0.208 WS/48... 28.9 ppg
94' Horry.......... 16.7 PER.... 5.0 BPM... 1.4 VORP... 0.152 WS/48... 11.7 ppg
GAP................... 11.0...........3.5............. 1.2........... 0.056............ 17.2

93' Jordan........ 30.1 PER... 11.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.270 WS/48... 35.1 ppg
93' Pippen........ 16.9 PER..... 2.0 BPM... 0.8 VORP... 0.083 WS/48... 20.1 ppg
GAP................... 13.2.......... 9.6............. 2.1........... 0.187............ 15.0

11' Dirk............ 25.2 PER... 5.5 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.210 WS/48... 27.7 ppg
11' Terry........... 20.3 PER... 4.6 BPM... 1.1 VORP... 0.179 WS/48... 17.5 ppg
GAP.................... 4.9...........1.1............. 0.5............ 0.031............ 10.2

92' Jordan......... 27.2 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.8 VORP... 0.216 WS/48... 34.5 ppg
92' Pippen......... 20.1 PER.... 6.6 BPM... 2.0 VORP... 0.168 WS/48... 19.5 ppg
GAP.................... 7.1........... 3.3............ 0.8............ 0.048............ 15.0

91' Jordan......... 32.0 PER... 14.6 BPM... 2.9 VORP... 0.333 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
91' Pippen......... 22.0 PER..... 6.5 BPM... 1.5 VORP... 0.197 WS/48... 21.6 ppg
GAP................... 10.0.......... 8.1............ 1.4............. 0.136............. 9.5

96' Jordan........ 26.7 PER... 10.7 BPM... 2.4 VORP.. 0.317 WS/48... 30.7 ppg
96' Pippen........ 19.4 PER..... 7.8 BPM... 1.8 VORP.. 0.195 WS/48... 16.9 ppg
GAP................... 7.3............ 2.9............. 0.6............. 0.122.......... 13.8

97' Jordan........ 27.1 PER.... 9.9 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.235 WS/48... 31.1 ppg
97' Pippen........ 18.1 PER.... 5.1 BPM... 1.4 VORP... 0.145 WS/48... 19.2 ppg
GAP................... 9.1........... 4.8.............. 1.0............. 0.090......,... 11.9

98' Jordan....... 28.1 PER.... 9.0 BPM... 2.4 VORP... 0.265 WS/48... 32.4 ppg
98' Pippen....... 19.4 PER.... 5.6 BPM... 1.6 VORP... 0.166 WS/48... 16.8 ppg
GAP.................. 8.7........... 3.4.............. 0.8............ 0.095........... 16.4


* Everyone in history needed teammates to match or exceed their scoring for entire playoff runs, whereas Jordan averaged 10 more than Pippen in every SERIES... (except 2 where he averaged 4 and 8 more).. This matters because equal-scoring partners attract equal defensive attention, so everyone else had periods without facing maximum defensive attention - these periods are inflated stats compared to Jordan, who always faced max defensive attention by carrying the scoring load in every SERIES, let alone playoff run.

* The Bulls are the only team in history that won more than 2 Finals without a sidekick getting FMVP or 25 ppg - so Jordan won 3 times as many Finals with a low-producing sidekick as anyone else

* Only Pippen failed to reach Horry-level in the Finals over a meaningful sample size (0/6 in reaching Horry's gamescore from 95' Finals)

* Pippen was drastically outplayed by Reggie Miller against the same playoff opponent 6/6 times:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?493657-Reggie-Miller-and-Pippen-faced-the-same-opponent-in-the-playoffs-6-times

[3ba11]

.

It isn’t a couple one offs it’s a bunch of teams. Lots.

You’re knowingly trying to make a point which is stupid right on its face.


Since 1980 (3-pointer history) the only teams in history that won without elite scorers at sidekick is 94' Hakeem, 03' Duncan, 11' Dirk, 04' Chauncey, 09/10 Kobe - a bunch of one-off's and then MJ's 6 rings.

Even guys like Dumars and Parker won FMVP with elite scoring domination.

The stats show that Jordan's 6 rings are bigger carry-jobs then Hakeem's 94' ring or Dirk's 11' ring (stats in previous post above)

[La Frescobaldi]

First off any Lakers fan who doesn’t hate every 90s Bull and every Celtic ever, and their dog, is no purple and gold man. So there’s that.
It’s the automatic and flagrant bias right up front of all laker fans wanting blood because of ‘91 pippen taking over Jordan’s job when jordan failed defensively and scottie just destroying Magic and LA.
Aside from that fact.
Tell him to pull up a Hall of Fame list and actually look at who is in it.

[La Frescobaldi]

That is a blatant refusal to just look at finals teams.

[3ba11]

First off any Lakers fan who doesn’t hate every 90s Bull and every Celtic ever, and their dog, is no purple and gold man. So there’s that.
It’s the automatic and flagrant bias right up front of all laker fans wanting blood because of ‘91 pippen taking over Jordan’s job when jordan failed defensively and scottie just destroying Magic and LA.
Aside from that fact.
Tell him to pull up a Hall of Fame list and actually look at who is in it.


Jordan was the primary defender on Magic in the 91' Finals by guarding him for over 70% of the series, including Games 1, 4, 5 and half of Game 3 (including the critical OT) and the first part of Game 2.

Magic is normally defended by SF's, so MJ did Pippen's job

So you're just lying about Pippen, who was a low-producer and a rare non-go-to player at sidekick

[La Frescobaldi]

Jordan was the primary defender on Magic in the 91' Finals by guarding him for over 70% of the series, including Games 1, 4, 5 and half of Game 3 (including the critical OT) and the first part of Game 2.

Magic is normally defended by SF's, so MJ did Pippen's job

So you're just lying about Pippen, who was a low-producer and a rare non-go-to player at sidekick


No he wasn’t. They tag teamed and Magic didn’t struggle until pippen switched on and Jordan went elsewhere

[3ba11]

No he wasn’t. They tag teamed and Magic didn’t struggle until pippen switched on and Jordan went elsewhere


Jordan guarded Magic for the entirety of Games 1, 4, and 5 (except the last 4 minutes of Game 4)

And Jordan guarded Magic for the 1st, 4th and OT of the critical Game 3.. Jordan even guarded Magic for the 1st quarter of Game 2

Overall, Pippen guarded Magic for 5 quarters and Jordan 15.. Pippen only guarded Magic for the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th of Game 2, and the 2nd and 3rd of Game 4

Magic is normally defended by SF's, so MJ did Pippen's job

So you're just lying about Pippen, who was a low-producer and a rare non-go-to player at sidekick

[La Frescobaldi]

Anybody can watch the games they’re online.

[3ba11]

Anybody can watch the games they’re online.


Exactly

Jordan guarded Magic for the entirety of Games 1, 4, and 5 (except the last 4 minutes of Game 4)

And Jordan guarded Magic for the 1st, 4th and OT of the critical Game 3.. Jordan even guarded Magic for the 1st quarter of Game 2

Overall, Pippen guarded Magic for 5 quarters and Jordan 15.. Pippen only guarded Magic for the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th of Game 2, and the 2nd and 3rd of Game 3

Magic is normally defended by SF's, so MJ did Pippen's job

I will eventually make a YouTube series that corrects the historical record and the Pippen myth guarding Magic will be the first video

[La Frescobaldi]

No he didn’t.

No you don’t because lies don’t correct anything.

List every #2 player from the Finals with their stats or be a liar.

[3ba11]

No he didn’t.


Did you skim through each game?.. It should take you maybe 20-30 minutes.

It isn't just me - it's been confirmed by other sources that Jordan guarded Magic the vast majority of the 91' Finals:

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1261129
https://www.reddit.com/r/VintageNBA/comments/fmjwop/pippen_guarding_magic_in_the_91_finals_myth/

Again, Jordan guarded Magic for the entirety of Games 1, 4, and 5 (except the last 4 minutes of Game 4)

And Jordan guarded Magic for the 1st, 4th and OT of the critical Game 3.. Jordan even guarded Magic for the 1st quarter of Game 2

Overall, Pippen guarded Magic for 5 quarters and Jordan 15.. Pippen only guarded Magic for the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th of Game 2, and the 2nd and 3rd of Game 3

Magic is normally defended by SF's, so MJ did Pippen's job

I will eventually make a YouTube series that corrects the historical record and the Pippen myth guarding Magic will be the first video

[La Frescobaldi]

Did you skim through each game?.. It should take you maybe 20-30 minutes.

It isn't just me - it's been confirmed by other sources that Jordan guarded Magic the vast majority of the 91' Finals:

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1261129
https://www.reddit.com/r/VintageNBA/comments/fmjwop/pippen_guarding_magic_in_the_91_finals_myth/

Again, Jordan guarded Magic for the entirety of Games 1, 4, and 5 (except the last 4 minutes of Game 4)

And Jordan guarded Magic for the 1st, 4th and OT of the critical Game 3.. Jordan even guarded Magic for the 1st quarter of Game 2

Overall, Pippen guarded Magic for 5 quarters and Jordan 15.. Pippen only guarded Magic for the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th of Game 2, and the 2nd and 3rd of Game 3

Magic is normally defended by SF's, so MJ did Pippen's job

I will eventually make a YouTube series that corrects the historical record and the Pippen myth guarding Magic will be the first video

List every #2 player from the Finals with their stats or be a liar.

[3ba11]

List every #2 player from the Finals with their stats or be a liar.


Did you know that before the 92' Finals, Terry Porter averaged 26/5/8 on 54% in the 92' WCF (53% threes on 6 attempts)?

Consequently, the Bulls paid him tons of attention (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MuSGY5Gnfro) to prevent him from taking over

Otoh, Pippen was never a threat to dominate - so he wasn't on the scouting report, which forced MJ to face maximum defensive attention.

Only Jordan faced maximum defensive attention because every other sidekick could dominate - everyone's best was much better than Pippen's, so every sidekick commanded defensive attention except Pippen

[La Frescobaldi]

Did you know that before the 92' Finals, Terry Porter averaged 26/5/8 on 54% in the 92' WCF (53% threes on 6 attempts)?

Consequently, the Bulls paid him tons of attention (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MuSGY5Gnfro) to prevent him from taking over

Otoh, Pippen was never a threat to dominate - so he wasn't on the scouting report, which forced MJ to face maximum defensive attention.

Only Jordan faced maximum defensive attention because every other sidekick could dominate - everyone's best was much better than Pippen's, so every sidekick commanded defensive attention except Pippen

The whole board knows what this means when you lie and distort on here.

Hilarious, but sad. Go outdoors .

[bizil]

Here's the thing Pip fans gotta realize! DUDE has six rings. YET he's NEVER MENTIONED in the top 10 GOAT! He has MORE RINGS than Wilt, Bird, Bron, Magic, Duncan, Shaq, and Kobe. ONLY MJ, Russ, and Kareem has just as many or more among the top 10 GOAT. WHY IS THAT??? It's because his PEAK-PRIME VALUE doesn't MEASURE UP to be a top 10 GOAT.

From there, WHY doesn't his peak value add up? For his position, he's a A passer, A rebounder, A defender. Postional versatility wise, he's an A. It's his SCORING ABILITY that brings him back to the pack. And it's NOT ABOUT playing with MJ! And BEING overshadowed. He was a 7 time All Star, 7 time All NBA, 10 time All Defense, All Star Game MVP, has two gold medals,and is WIDELY SEEN as the precursor to G Hill and Bron in point forward lore.

Shaq and Kobe played together. BOTH are in the top 10 GOAT. Magic and Cap played together. BOTH are in the top 10 GOAT! Curry and KD BOTH could be in the top 10 GOAT at one point. BOTH of them played together for three years. So it AIN'T ABOUT being overshadowed by MJ. It's ABOUT Pip's peak-prime value IN GENERAL! He was AWESOME!

BUT their is levels to greatness. If DUDE was as great as many think he is, he WOULDA been the GOAT SF at one point! OVER Bird back in the day!! If Bird had six rings, he would be IN A DEBATE with MJ and Kareem for the GOAT crown. THAT'S how great Bird was! Hell I SHUDDER to think where Pip would be GOAT wise with NO RINGS!!!! LOL The Mailman is STILL considered by many to be the 2nd GOAT PF behind Timmy! WITH NO RINGS!!!

[La Frescobaldi]

Here's the thing Pip fans gotta realize! DUDE has six rings. YET he's NEVER MENTIONED in the top 10 GOAT! He has MORE RINGS than Wilt, Bird, Bron, Magic, Duncan, Shaq, and Kobe. ONLY MJ, Russ, and Kareem has just as many or more among the top 10 GOAT. WHY IS THAT??? It's because his PEAK-PRIME VALUE doesn't MEASURE UP to be a top 10 GOAT.

From there, WHY doesn't his peak value add up? For his position, he's a A passer, A rebounder, A defender. Postional versatility wise, he's an A. It's his SCORING ABILITY that brings him back to the pack. And it's NOT ABOUT playing with MJ! And BEING overshadowed. He was a 7 time All Star, 7 time All NBA, 10 time All Defense, All Star Game MVP, has two gold medals,and is WIDELY SEEN as the precursor to G Hill and Bron in point forward lore.

Shaq and Kobe played together. BOTH are in the top 10 GOAT. Magic and Cap played together. BOTH are in the top 10 GOAT! Curry and KD BOTH could be in the top 10 GOAT at one point. BOTH of them played together for three years. So it AIN'T ABOUT being overshadowed by MJ. It's ABOUT Pip's peak-prime value IN GENERAL! He was AWESOME!

BUT their is levels to greatness. If DUDE was as great as many think he is, he WOULDA been the GOAT SF at one point! OVER Bird back in the day!! If Bird had six rings, he would be IN A DEBATE with MJ and Kareem for the GOAT crown. THAT'S how great Bird was! Hell I SHUDDER to think where Pip would be GOAT wise with NO RINGS!!!! LOL The Mailman is STILL considered by many to be the 2nd GOAT PF behind Timmy! WITH NO RINGS!!!

First off championships have to measured in view of injuries, teammates, and class of opponents. One ring against 80s Showtime is worth about fifty against Jazz. Duncan’s path to glory was often harder than some of lbj’s playoffs.
Who only ever beat stacked 60s Celtics?

Second off pip ran the Bulls offense but in most people’s minds he didn’t lead the team, regardless of what P Jax has said on the subject.

[bizil]

First off championships have to measured in view of injuries, teammates, and class of opponents. One ring against 80s Showtime is worth about fifty against Jazz. Duncan’s path to glory was often harder than some of lbj’s playoffs.
Who only ever beat stacked 60s Celtics?

Second off pip ran the Bulls offense but in most people’s minds he didn’t lead the team, regardless of what P Jax has said on the subject.

Fact remains NOBODY considers Pip a top 10-15 GOAT with six rings! I see my post went over your head! My point was SIX RINGS is a ton of rings! And as I said before PEAK-PRIME VALUE is a key component of GOAT status. Pip's peak-prime status is the MAIN REASON he was never top 10 GOAT caliber. MJ with SIX RINGS is the GOAT. Pip with just as many on the same team is WAYYYYYYYYYY behind MJ GOAT wise. Explain that to me????

[La Frescobaldi]

Fact remains NOBODY considers Pip a top 10-15 GOAT with six rings! I see my post went over your head! My point was SIX RINGS is a ton of rings! And as I said before PEAK-PRIME VALUE is a key component of GOAT status. Pip's peak-prime status is the MAIN REASON he was never top 10 GOAT caliber. MJ with SIX RINGS is the GOAT. Pip with just as many on the same team is WAYYYYYYYYYY behind MJ GOAT wise. Explain that to me????

Over my head? I just explained why your post was correct but it went over your head.

[beasted]

Why do we have to "assume" or "agree" that it was said? It was said on video many times.

Do I feel Pippen was ever the best player in the league? No. Top 3-5? Yes. From 94 to 97.

I hate to answer your question with a question, but from 94 to 96 Pippen finished top 5 in MVP and DPOY voting. How many players at any time in history can make that claim?
Is the MVP voting aligning with your perspective on talent? Do you believe voting was due to his talent ranking or team record? Any season in Pippen's career that he was a better player than Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, Malone? Then discuss the debatable players. Does Pippen elevate the Magic replacing Penny? Do they suddenly win? Hornets/Heat replacing Mourning? Are the Knicks champs with Pippen instead of Ewing?

Personally I say definitely no to the first group, and probably not to the second debatable group. But YMMV. Pippen was a very good player, but he's beckons this polarizing debate that is either overrated or underrated due to agenda now that he's retired.

I know that for such a "great" player I regularly hear on ESPN references to a lot of past players, but rarely ever comparisons to Pippen. This says he was never a great player, only a good one. I hope this isn't misconstrued as a knock on him. Because it's not like ESPN/TNT is name dropping Alonzo Mourning either.

All these questions are simply to try and get people thinking objectively and not parroting some narrative to fulfill an agenda. What are objective considerations in his ranking?

[bizil]

Over my head? I just explained why your post was correct but it went over your head.

I know what you were saying. And I agree with a lot of it. But my point is it's not about leading the team. Or being the best player on a title team. It's about your OVERALL peak-prime value IN GENERAL! Magic Johnson in place of Pip on the Bulls would have been SO GREAT that he STILL would have been the GOAT PG. And a top 5 caliber GOAT in general.

EVERYBODY would know Jordan was the best player. But Magic was SO GREAT, it would have been apparent to the rest of the league that the Bulls had the top two players on the planet. Or if Bird was still in his prime, two of the top three players in the world on the same team. Once again, it's NOT ABOUT LEADING THE TEAM! Pip was a great player in my mind. JUST gets overrated by many in my opinion. In other words you have some duos who are Superman-Batman. Others are Batman-Robin! MJ-Magic would be Superman-Batman. Jordan and Pip was Batman-Robin!

[97 bulls]

Is the MVP voting aligning with your perspective on talent? Do you believe voting was due to his talent ranking or team record?
The MVP voting doesn't necessarily go to the best player. Nash has two MVPs and he was never the best player in the league. But the MVP and DPOY typically are the two most prestigious awards in my opinion. Pippen finished top 5 in both for 3 consecutive years. Again, how many players in history can make that claim? He might've won MVP in 96 had he not got hurt. He should've won DPOY in 95 and 96.


Any season in Pippen's career that he was a better player than Hakeem, Robinson, Shaq, Malone?
I'd take Pippen over Robinson and Malone this years. Not Shaq and definitely not Olajuwan.


Does Pippen elevate the Magic replacing Penny?
Yes


Do they suddenly win? Hornets/Heat replacing Mourning? Are the Knicks champs with Pippen instead of Ewing?
To many moving parts. Those teams were built catered to those guys.


Personally I say definitely no to the first group, and probably not to the second debatable group. But YMMV. Pippen was a very good player, but he's beckons this polarizing debate that is either overrated or underrated due to agenda now that he's retired.
I agree. Pippen is a polarizing debate. But I'm not trying to convince you. I do feel he was a top 3-5 player at one time. Again, I can't change your mind. But we can't deny thr truth. MANY RESPECTED people in the NBA fraternity was calling Pippen the best to top 3 player in the league.


I know that for such a "great" player I regularly hear on ESPN references to a lot of past players, but rarely ever comparisons to Pippen. This says he was never a great player, only a good one. I hope this isn't misconstrued as a knock on him. Because it's not like ESPN/TNT is name dropping Alonzo Mourning either.
I've seen Pippen be compared to Lebron. https://youtu.be/gHvZmFkYVT0
Max Kellerman called Lebron a "blown up Pippen". I've always felt Lebron is Pippen on steroids.


All these questions are simply to try and get people thinking objectively and not parroting some narrative to fulfill an agenda. What are objective considerations in his ranking?
But that the thing. You have an agenda. Or I should say you have a stance. And it seems to me, you want to call anyone that disagrees with you a person with an agenda.

[97 bulls]

First off championships have to measured in view of injuries, teammates, and class of opponents. One ring against 80s Showtime is worth about fifty against Jazz.Duncan’s path to glory was often harder than some of lbj’s playoffs.
Who only ever beat stacked 60s Celtics?
The bold shows you can't be objective. The Bulls beat the Bad Boy Pistons and the Showtime Lakers 8-1. Their Championships were legit


Second off pip ran the Bulls offense but in most people’s minds he didn’t lead the team, regardless of what P Jax has said on the subject.
See. This is what I have a problem with. You guys all too often want to equate your thoughts with what everyone else thinks. Everyone on the Bulls said Pippen and Jordan were coequal as far as leadership.

[3ba11]

Pippen had the lowest peak scoring capability of any winning sidekick (22 ppg outside the 1st Round) and the worst efficiency of any sidekick, which makes him the worst-scoring sidekick ever.

Pippen's true shooting in the playoffs was below league-average every year except 89-91', so only once when he was a viable scoring option.

Every sidekick achieved elite ppg or apg in a series except Pippen - so only Pippen wasn't a threat for elite production - every opponent had 2 threats capable of elite stats/domination except the Bulls, who only had Jordan, as Kenny Smith explains so ingeniously here (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4UF6Xx3F2Lo&t=01m54s).

[La Frescobaldi]

The bold shows you can't be objective. The Bulls beat the Bad Boy Pistons and the Showtime Lakers 8-1. Their Championships were legit


See. This is what I have a problem with. You guys all too often want to equate your thoughts with what everyone else thinks. Everyone on the Bulls said Pippen and Jordan were coequal as far as leadership.

I never claimed to be objective nor will I ever be objective about hoops. Neither will anybody else and least of all you on this or any board ever be objective about hoops. Claiming to be objective about what is obviously opinion is a stupidity.

[97 bulls]

I never claimed to be objective nor will I ever be objective about hoops. Neither will anybody else and least of all you on this or any board ever be objective about hoops. Claiming to be objective about what is obviously opinion is a stupidity.

But you can be fair right? People hold Pippen to a standard that no other player has ever had to reach in my opinion. He should've won in one year, with less help than what many feel the GOAT had. How does that possibly make sense. Robinson had many years when he had no worse than a top 3 team in the league and failed every year until Duncan arrived. The same for Barkley. And Drexler. And Ewing. Why do they get more slack even though they failed 10 times more than what Pippen?

Pippen was on their level as far as success in 94 and 95.

[La Frescobaldi]

But you can be fair right? People hold Pippen to a standard that no other player has ever had to reach in my opinion. He should've won in one year, with less help than what many feel the GOAT had. How does that possibly make sense. Robinson had many years when he had no worse than a top 3 team in the league and failed every year until Duncan arrived. The same for Barkley. And Drexler. And Ewing. Why do they get more slack even though they failed 10 times more than what Pippen?

Pippen was on their level as far as success in 94 and 95.

Agree.
It’s unfortunate that Duncan is on there because unless I need a guard, I’d rather have him than anybody else in the whole comment including - especially including - Ewing.

[8Ball]

But you can be fair right? People hold Pippen to a standard that no other player has ever had to reach in my opinion. He should've won in one year, with less help than what many feel the GOAT had. How does that possibly make sense. Robinson had many years when he had no worse than a top 3 team in the league and failed every year until Duncan arrived. The same for Barkley. And Drexler. And Ewing. Why do they get more slack even though they failed 10 times more than what Pippen?

Pippen was on their level as far as success in 94 and 95.

Pippen's problem is that his intangibles are not measured easily.

[97 bulls]

Pippen's problem is that his intangibles are not measured easily.
I don't think that's the problem. The problem is Pippen is being castigated for something he never had a fair chance to do. Draymond Green, James Worthy, Kevin McHale, didn't fair well when they became the man on their team. Or at least not when compared to what Pippen did in 94 and 95. LeBron James Lakers has a sub .500 record this year and he has an MVP in Westbrook playing alongside him.

I see it like this, had the Bulls been a sub .500 team upon Jordan's abrupt decision to retire, I'd agree with you guys. But they were damn good. I don't know about you, but I'd rather have my team win than to have my favorite player get gaudy stats and lose.

[TAZORAC]

Pippen is a medicorer scorer, that's why he'd never be better then Ewing. Pippen couldn't attack the rim

[Round Mound]

Pippen is a medicorer scorer, that's why he'd never be better then Ewing. Pippen couldn't attack the rim

Scottie Pippen - Most Underrated - Sickest Dunk Compilation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2838Qp8069Y

[3ba11]

Ewing destroyed Pippen's 3-time defending champion and is superior on offense and defense by wide margins.

Pippen's garbage efficiency proves that he can't handle a 2nd option load and was only a 2nd option alongside MJ - he was a 14 ppg dunker that couldn't score in 89' and 99' (outside the triangle and dynasty chemistry)

[3ba11]

Scottie Pippen - Most Underrated - Sickest Dunk Compilation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2838Qp8069Y


Jeff Green's greatest hits look better

Pippen was a 14 ppg dunker that couldn't score in 89' and 99' (outside the triangle and dynasty chemistry) - he's the biggest system player of all-time and the most overrated player ever, aka the biggest gap in history between in his career production rate stats (120th) and perceived ranking (30th)

[La Frescobaldi]

pippen is a medicorer scorer, that's why he'd never be better then ewing. Pippen couldn't attack the rim

w t f

[3ba11]

w t f


it's true


Colin Cowherd:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg_-JIbekYM&t=276s


Robert Horry on Pippen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZpVlMVYr-A&t=24s

[La Frescobaldi]

it's true


Colin Cowherd:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg_-JIbekYM&t=276s


Robert Horry on Pippen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZpVlMVYr-A&t=24s

Big Shot talks a lot of smack tho admittedly he can back it up largely.
He was for real esp. when he was young and spry

[3ba11]

.
Stats as 1st option in Playoffs - 10 games each

92' LEWIS'..... 28/4/4.. 57.0 ts.. 23.8 PER.. 0.177 ws.. 4.1 dbpm.. 2.6 obpm.. 6.8 bpm.. 0.9 vorp
94' PIPPEN.... 23/8/5.. 52.1 ts.. 22.8 PER.. 0.149 ws.. 4.0 dbpm.. 1.6 obpm.. 5.6 bpm.. 0.7 vorp






Big Shot talks a lot of smack tho admittedly he can back it up largely.





Horry wouldn't say that about Penny, Hill, Lewis, Bird or any actual scorer






admittedly he can back it up largely.





Horry hit 100 big shots to win 7 rings, while Pippen hit 0 to win 6... :confusedshrug:






He was for real esp. when he was young and spry





In 1989 and 1999 (outside the triangle and dynasty chemistry), Pippen was a 14 ppg dunker and not much different from Horry:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-24-2022/GZT4ZS.gif

[theman93]

Ewing received MVP votes 8 years of his career while Pippen received MVP votes 6 years of his career.

The 4 years they both received MVP votes, Ewing received more MVP votes in 3 of those years (1992, 1995, and 1997).

Ewing also beat Pippen head to head in the playoffs when they were both their teams top dog. Pippen also wasn't even all-star worthy for half of his career.

Anyone saying Pippen > Ewing is playing revisionist history.

[RogueBorg]

Ewing received MVP votes 8 years of his career while Pippen received MVP votes 6 years of his career.

The 4 years they both received MVP votes, Ewing received more MVP votes in 3 of those years (1992, 1995, and 1997).

Ewing also beat Pippen head to head in the playoffs when they were both their teams top dog. Pippen also wasn't even all-star worthy for half of his career.

Anyone saying Pippen > Ewing is playing revisionist history.

Confirms what I've been saying all along, back then, most people thought Ewing was the better player. More MVP votes head-to-head for Ewing, more All-Stars for Ewing, the one year they played head-to-head as alphas won by Ewing.

[3ba11]

Confirms what I've been saying all along, back then, most people thought Ewing was the better player. More MVP votes head-to-head for Ewing, more All-Stars for Ewing, the one year they played head-to-head as alphas won by Ewing.


Ewing was considered an elite 1st option that could carry an offense and achieve elite production, while Pippen was viewed as a 2nd option that couldn't get his own shot (system player)..

A previous poster mentioned that Pippen wasn't all-star caliber for half his career - that's because he was only viable in the triangle.. Outside the triangle and dynasty chemistry (outside of 90-98'), Pippen was a 14 ppg dunker that couldn't score - that was his PEAK outside the triangle

There's no planet where Pippen is anywhere near Ewing, who was a historic #1 pick like Shaq and expected to be a savior.. If he had a single perennial all-star teammate, he certainly would have, and still made 2 Finals (nearly won in 94' and injured in 99') without any all-stars.

[97 bulls]

Confirms what I've been saying all along, back then, most people thought Ewing was the better player. More MVP votes head-to-head for Ewing, more All-Stars for Ewing, the one year they played head-to-head as alphas won by Ewing.

If by "back then", you mean the late 80s ok. But I did a search of the top NBA players in history ranked. I looked at about 15 different ones. None of them had Ewing ranked over Pippen. NONE!!! Combine that with the bevy of NBA players, coaches, and media that actually stated that Pippen was a top 5 player. You're assessments on how Pippen and Ewing were perceived is just flat out wrong.

[HoopsNY]

If by "back then", you mean the late 80s ok. But I did a search of the top NBA players in history ranked. I looked at about 15 different ones. None of them had Ewing ranked over Pippen. NONE!!! Combine that with the bevy of NBA players, coaches, and media that actually stated that Pippen was a top 5 player. You're assessments on how Pippen and Ewing were perceived is just flat out wrong.

That's revisionist history. Anyone who saw Ewing from '87-'97 will rank him above Pippen. He was a great player right out of the gate and was a leader who led his team to the finals, beating Pippen's Bulls and outplaying him in that series.

Pippen was a defensive anchor, but so was Ewing. And Ewing could give you 25-30 PPG while doing so.

[97 bulls]

That's revisionist history. Anyone who saw Ewing from '87-'97 will rank him above Pippen. He was a great player right out of the gate and was a leader who led his team to the finals, beating Pippen's Bulls and outplaying him in that series.

Pippen was a defensive anchor, but so was Ewing. And Ewing could give you 25-30 PPG while doing so.
How was it revisionist history? People at the time ranked Pippen over Ewing.

[3ba11]

The same reason that ESPN put Pippen ahead of Ewing (rings) would put Klay ahead of Embiid

But for some reason, Pippen is the only 2nd option that gets credit for rings like he's a 1st option, while Klay is treated appropriately as a secondary player and not given credit for a bunch of chips like a 1st option would be - so Klay is still ranked below Embiid, while Pippen gets the jaw-dropping fraud of being ranked ahead of Ewing.

Even a guy like AD that carried the Lakers to the 2020 Finals or Kyrie outplaying Curry - people talk about them like they're losers and ringless, while Pippen gets full credit for 6 f*cking chips while doing nothing to get them - he never even reaching peak Horry-level in 6 Finals, or getting drastically outplayed by Reggie Miller against the same 5 playoff opponents... and on and on and on.... there's so many ways to show that pippen was a bum in addition to his raw stats.. there's only series of him s.ucking and never playing at an elite level in any category (pts, rebs, assists)

[Baller789]

How was it revisionist history? People at the time ranked Pippen over Ewing.

Pippen only got rated so high because of team success.

No GM in his right mind would draft Pip over Ewing.

[97 bulls]

Pippen only got rated so high because of team success.

No GM in his right mind would draft Pip over Ewing.

And yet everyone but a few posters on this forum feels Pippen was better. And for the record, my issue isn't with how you feel. It's thus flat out lie that no one then or now ranks Pip over Ewing. That's just wrong.

And let's not forget that Pippen was a large reason for that teams success.

[theman93]

How was it revisionist history? People at the time ranked Pippen over Ewing.

Ewing consistently finished ahead of Pippen in MVP voting. Those who viewed Pippen as better than Ewing were few and far between.

[3ba11]

Did ESPN put Klay above Embiid? Maybe they did... I assumed they didn't but maybe they did..

Ewing has 2 more Finals than Embiid without all-star teammates.. 30 ppg and 4.0 block peak

[HoopsNY]

How was it revisionist history? People at the time ranked Pippen over Ewing.

Nah man, maybe for a season or two at best, but you and I both watched Ewing and Pippen for the majority of '87-'97. You can't sit there and tell me Pippen was regarded higher. No way.

[TheGoatest]

The one full season The Great Scott Pippen wasn't shackled up by the 2 1st time all-stars/7 career highs in ppg suppressing jordon, he ranked above Ewing in the MVP voting.
Also, if Ewing didn't play in the hype of New York, people would be laughing at him being mentioned better than The Great Scott Pippen.

[Baller789]

And yet everyone but a few posters on this forum feels Pippen was better. And for the record, my issue isn't with how you feel. It's thus flat out lie that no one then or now ranks Pip over Ewing. That's just wrong.

And let's not forget that Pippen was a large reason for that teams success.

Who here who isn't a Bronie ranks Pippen over Ewing?

I'll wait.

[RogueBorg]

The one full season The Great Scott Pippen wasn't shackled up by the 2 1st time all-stars/7 career highs in ppg suppressing jordon, he ranked above Ewing in the MVP voting.
Also, if Ewing didn't play in the hype of New York, people would be laughing at him being mentioned better than The Great Scott Pippen.

Then why does Pippen have only 7 All-Star appearances, the easiest of all accolades to achieve, in a 17 year career?

[97 bulls]

Who here who isn't a Bronie ranks Pippen over Ewing?

I'll wait.

Me. LeBron James isn't on Jordan's level in my opinion.

[97 bulls]

Then why does Pippen have only 7 All-Star appearances, the easiest of all accolades to achieve, in a 17 year career?

Because Pippen came in playing behind another lottery pick in Brad Sellers. And Pippen was playing with a bad back his first year in the league. Kraus has a habit of drafting for talent as opposed to a need.

[theman93]

Because Pippen came in playing behind another lottery pick in Brad Sellers. And Pippen was playing with a bad back his first year in the league. Kraus has a habit of drafting for talent as opposed to a need.

That's one season in a 17 year career. He quickly became the starter in 1989 and failed to make the all-star team, then failed to make the all-star team again in 1991. He also wasn't all-star worthy as late in to his career as Ewing was and Ewing was also recognized as an all-star right out of the gates.

[ImKobe]

The one full season The Great Scott Pippen wasn't shackled up by the 2 1st time all-stars/7 career highs in ppg suppressing jordon, he ranked above Ewing in the MVP voting.
Also, if Ewing didn't play in the hype of New York, people would be laughing at him being mentioned better than The Great Scott Pippen.

Didn't Ewing outplay & beat Pippen in the Playoffs in '94? How many Finals did Pippen get to without MJ?

[RogueBorg]

Because Pippen came in playing behind another lottery pick in Brad Sellers. And Pippen was playing with a bad back his first year in the league. Kraus has a habit of drafting for talent as opposed to a need.

Brad Sellers sucked big time don't give me that. These young Gabronies might not know who he was but I do.

[97 bulls]

Brad Sellers sucked big time don't give me that. These young Gabronies might not know who he was but I do.

Right Sellers did suck. But he was a lottery pick the year before Pippen came. It was too early to call Sellers a bust. It was only Sellers 2nd year

[RogueBorg]

Right Sellers did suck. But he was a lottery pick the year before Pippen came. It was too early to call Sellers a bust. It was only Sellers 2nd year

The Bulls knew he was a scrub by his second season, everyone knew he was soft. And they only kept that Lotto Pick 3 seasons.

[97 bulls]

The Bulls knew he was a scrub by his second season, everyone knew he was soft. And they only kept that Lotto Pick 3 seasons.

Right. Because they had Pippen.

[ShawkFactory]

Didn't Ewing outplay & beat Pippen in the Playoffs in '94? How many Finals did Pippen get to without MJ?

Meh..that was a dead-even series. Chicago actually outscored and had a higher ORTG over the 7 games.

[97 bulls]

Didn't Ewing outplay & beat Pippen in the Playoffs in '94? How many Finals did Pippen get to without MJ?

Ewing didn't beat Pippen. The Knicks beat the Bulls. But nobody thought the Bulls were good enough to take the Knicks to 7 much more beat the Knicks.

It never ceases to amaze me that for all this credit you guy give Jordan for leading the Bulls to multiple championships, you then turn around and act like his absence in 94 shouldn't have had an effect on the Bulls being able to beat a team they were barely beating with MJ.

[RogueBorg]

Right. Because they had Pippen.

You brought up Sellers when asked why Pippen only has 7 all-star appearances in 17 seasons. The Bulls were done with Sellers by Pippen's second year. Seller's is not an acceptable excuse.

[97 bulls]

You brought up Sellers when asked why Pippen only has 7 all-star appearances in 17 seasons. The Bulls were done with Sellers by Pippen's second year. Seller's is not an acceptable excuse.

Right. I think if Pippen is able to start from the gate, he probably gets a fee more allstar game nods. His progression starts earlier. I don't know why he was snubbed in 91. He was hurt in 98.

[RogueBorg]

Ewing didn't beat Pippen. The Knicks beat the Bulls. But nobody thought the Bulls were good enough to take the Knicks to 7 much more beat the Knicks.

It never ceases to amaze me that for all this credit you guy give Jordan for leading the Bulls to multiple championships, you then turn around and act like his absence in 94 shouldn't have had an effect on the Bulls being able to beat a team they were barely beating with MJ.

That's fair, but Ewing outplayed Pippen the only time they faced each other in the playoffs as "alphas" and it just happens to be the 1.8 second series. Pippen also shot horribly in that series.

I don't want this to come across as a bash Pippen topic. I was a fan. He used to irk me by some of the shenanigans he used to pull. I just remember back in the day thinking Ewing was the better player.

[theman93]

Right. I think if Pippen is able to start from the gate, he probably gets a fee more allstar game nods. His progression starts earlier. I don't know why he was snubbed in 91. He was hurt in 98.

Except he wasn't good enough to start from the gate. And he didn't get a few more all-star nods. In 1991 he wasn't viewed as one of the top forwards in the league, so he didn't make the all-star team. These are the facts.

We can play the if games all day. The bottom line is he was not good enough to be a perennial all-star until the 5th year of his career - whereas Ewing became a perennial all-star by the 3rd year of his career and his perennial all-star status lasted longer than Pippen's.

[Phoenix]

That's fair, but Ewing outplayed Pippen the only time they faced each other in the playoffs as "alphas" and it just happens to be the 1.8 second series. Pippen also shot horribly in that series.

Jordan the prior year shot 40%( obviously on higher volume). The Knicks were like the #1 defensive team. Scottie was actually the leading scorer in 4 out of 7 games and its really not apples to oranges equating Scotties % against the Knicks combined perimeter and interior defense vs Patrick Ewing having to score against the likes of Bill Cartwright and Luc Longley. Even then, he dropped 23ppg. It's not like he went off for 30ppg or something.

[Axe]

97 bulls ethering the deluded pippen detractors itt, those who wouldn't want to admit that jordan had a solid teammate during the 90s dynasty days.

[97 bulls]

Except he wasn't good enough to start from the gate. And he didn't get a few more all-star nods. In 1991 he wasn't viewed as one of the top forwards in the league, so he didn't make the all-star team. These are the facts.

We can play the if games all day. The bottom line is he was not good enough to be a perennial all-star until the 5th year of his career - whereas Ewing became a perennial all-star by the 3rd year of his career and his perennial all-star status lasted longer than Pippen's.

Again. Pippen played his whole rookie season with a herniated disk in his back. It wasn't just Brad Sellers.

[97 bulls]

Jordan the prior year shot 40%( obviously on higher volume). The Knicks were like the #1 defensive team. Scottie was actually the leading scorer in 4 out of 7 games and its really not apples to oranges equating Scotties % against the Knicks combined perimeter and interior defense vs Patrick Ewing having to score against the likes of Bill Cartwright and Luc Longley. Even then, he dropped 23ppg. It's not like he went off for 30ppg or something.

Great points. And I've told them the same thing many times.

These guys are so blinded by their Jordan fanboyism, that they can't see how unreasonable they're being.

[97 bulls]

That's fair, but Ewing outplayed Pippen the only time they faced each other in the playoffs as "alphas" and it just happens to be the 1.8 second series. Pippen also shot horribly in that series.

I don't want this to come across as a bash Pippen topic. I was a fan. He used to irk me by some of the shenanigans he used to pull. I just remember back in the day thinking Ewing was the better player.

And that's your opinion. But to say nobody thought that? When there's multiple vids of respected members of the NBA community saying he's a top 5 player in the NBA shows you're wrong.

[RogueBorg]

Jordan the prior year shot 40%( obviously on higher volume). The Knicks were like the #1 defensive team. Scottie was actually the leading scorer in 4 out of 7 games

If you're talking about the 1993 ECF against the Knicks, Pippen was not the leading scorer in 4 out the 7 games, he led 1x in game 3.

[Phoenix]

Great points. And I've told them the same thing many times.

These guys are so blinded by their Jordan fanboyism, that they can't see how unreasonable they're being.

Yeah the Knicks defense was designed to make you work hard for your numbers. You either had guys like Starks, Harper and Anthony hounding the ball with as much handchecking as the rules allowed, and funneling into the interior wall of Ewing, Oakley, Smith, and Mason. In both series (93 and 94) MJ and Pippen hit their usual volume, but their efficiency dipped. Ewing, frankly, should have had numbers more akin to what Hakeem dropped on David Robinson. 23/12 in the 94 series vs Chicago was basically par for the course numbers, given the opposing centers nothing to write home about.

[Phoenix]

If you're talking about the 1993 ECF against the Knicks, Pippen was not the leading scorer in 4 out the 7 games, he led 1x in game 3.

No sorry, I see where I said that wrong. I was referring to Scottie's performance in 94( leading scorer 4 of 7 games including game 7) but I didn't properly distinguish that from my point about Jordan's % the prior year(93).

[theman93]

Again. Pippen played his whole rookie season with a herniated disk in his back. It wasn't just Brad Sellers.

And once he was fully healed in 1989 after missing the first 8 games, it took him 17 games to crack the starting lineup. So it's not just the herniated disk. He simply wasn't good enough right out of the gates. And he definitely wasn't good enough until Phil unlocked him. And even then, it wasn't until 4 years later he became a perennial all-star.

Anyways, this still doesn't address why Pippen could only make the all-star team 7 times in 17 years. Your Brad Sellers and 1998 injury excuse is 2 years of 17.

[Phoenix]

And once he was fully healed in 1989 after missing the first 8 games, it took him 17 games to crack the starting lineup. So it's not just the herniated disk. He simply wasn't good enough right out of the gates. And he definitely wasn't good enough until Phil unlocked him. And even then, it wasn't until 4 years later he became a perennial all-star.

Anyways, this still doesn't address why Pippen could only make the all-star team 7 times in 17 years. Your Brad Sellers and 1998 injury excuse is 2 years of 17.

I'm not sure why he wasn't an all-star in 91 because he was better that year than in 90( practically better across the board season averages) and the 91 playoffs made it clear he was a top level player by that point( 22/9/6/3/1 50%).

[theman93]

I'm not sure why he wasn't an all-star in 91 because he was better that year than in 90( practically better across the board season averages) and the 91 playoffs made it clear he was a top level player by that point( 22/9/6/3/1 50%).

Because other forwards were viewed as better than him.

[Phoenix]

Because other forwards were viewed as better than him.

That would have been the case in 1990 as well, but didnt prevent a selection. I'm more curious about the specific reasons for how they voted in each year.

[97 bulls]

And once he was fully healed in 1989 after missing the first 8 games, it took him 17 games to crack the starting lineup. So it's not just the herniated disk. He simply wasn't good enough right out of the gates. And he definitely wasn't good enough until Phil unlocked him. And even then, it wasn't until 4 years later he became a perennial all-star.

Anyways, this still doesn't address why Pippen could only make the all-star team 7 times in 17 years. Your Brad Sellers and 1998 injury excuse is 2 years of 17.

Like with most major surgeries, players are brought back slowly. I know you know this. You're just blinded by your hate for Pippen.

[RogueBorg]

Because other forwards were viewed as better than him.

The forwards for the Eastern Conference All-Stars in 1991 were;

Larry Bird
Kevin McHale
Dominique Wilkins
Bernard King
Charles Barkley

Pippen's reputation was tarnished by the "Migraine" and his failures versus Detroit in the playoffs. Both he and Horace Grant were viewed as soft at the time. When Bird retired and Sir Charles went West it opened the door for Pippen.

[theman93]

That would have been the case in 1990 as well, but didnt prevent a selection. I'm more curious about the specific reasons for how they voted in each year.

Not necessarily. All-star selections are a year by year award. However we want to slice it, the historical record shows he wasn't a perennial all-star until 1992.

[RogueBorg]

That would have been the case in 1990 as well, but didnt prevent a selection. I'm more curious about the specific reasons for how they voted in each year.

Bird and Barkley were gobbling up 2 forward spots every year and were getting the nod every year. Pippen was fighting for the last 2 or so forward spots up until '92.

[theman93]

Like with most major surgeries, players are brought back slowly. I know you know this. You're just blinded by your hate for Pippen.

First of all, I don't hate Pippen. You're projecting in an attempt to create a narrative instead of sticking to the facts.

Secondly, which players (who are good enough to be starters) do not start when they are fully healed? For example, Klay Thompson hadn't played in 2 years after suffering significantly worse injuries than a herniated back and was instantly put in to Golden State's starting role. Name some name's.

If Pippen was trying to be brought back slowly, how come he played 35 minutes his first game back followed by a 41 minute game a couple games afterwards? Lol. He clearly was not on any type of minutes restriction.

[97 bulls]

The forwards for the Eastern Conference All-Stars in 1991 were;

Larry Bird
Kevin McHale
Dominique Wilkins
Bernard King
Charles Barkley

Pippen's reputation was tarnished by the "Migraine" and his failures versus Detroit in the playoffs. Both he and Horace Grant were viewed as soft at the time. When Bird retired and Sir Charles went West it opened the door for Pippen.

That's not it. I think the anomaly was King. He had a resurgence and his points jumped to almost 30 a game.

[97 bulls]

First of all, I don't hate Pippen. You're projecting in an attempt to create a narrative instead of sticking to the facts.

Bro. When you start holding a player to a standard you're not prepared to hold all or better yet, players you percieve as being better than, to, then your a biased hater.


Secondly, which players (who are good enough to be starters) do not start when they are fully healed? For example, Klay Thompson hadn't played in 2 years after suffering significantly worse injuries than a herniated back and was instantly put in to Golden State's starting role. Name some name's.

If Pippen was trying to be brought back slowly, how come he played 35 minutes his first game back followed by a 41 minute game a couple games afterwards? Lol. He clearly was not on any type of minutes restriction.

That first game was an overtime game. For the most part, Pippen played and average of about 25-26 minutes a night. Combine that with, once again, him sharing the SF spot with a lottery pick two years before.

[theman93]

Bro. When you start holding a player to a standard you're not prepared to hold all or better yet, players you percieve as being better than, to, then your a biased hater.
Nice projection, again, bro. We are specifically talking about Pippen and Ewing and I've held them both to the same exact standard (all-stars and mvp voting). You're getting lost in the argument and getting emotional.




That first game was an overtime game. For the most part, Pippen played and average of about 25-26 minutes a night. Combine that with, once again, him sharing the SF spot with a lottery pick two years before.
It doesn't matter if it's an overtime game. Players that are being brought back slowly don't get played 35 minutes their first night back. Lol.

[Phoenix]

Not necessarily. All-star selections are a year by year award. However we want to slice it, the historical record shows he wasn't a perennial all-star until 1992.

The historical record wasn't being questioned on my end. I was simply asking aloud 'I wonder what led to them voting him in 1990 but not 1991'. But now that I look back at that year, Bernard having a bounce-back season more or less took Scottie's position because the other forwards were basically the same( Barkley, Nique, Bird, Mchale). Edit: I missed it earlier but I see 97Bulls made the same point about King in 91.

[Phoenix]

Bird and Barkley were gobbling up 2 forward spots every year and were getting the nod every year. Pippen was fighting for the last 2 or so forward spots up until '92.

Yeah, the forward spot in general was pretty heavy. Out of the 12 all-stars in 1990, 6 were forwards.

[97 bulls]

Nice projection, again, bro. We are specifically talking about Pippen and Ewing and I've held them both to the same exact standard (all-stars and mvp voting). You're getting lost in the argument and getting emotional.
I don't even see how you can compare the two by Allstar appearances. They don't even play the same position.





It doesn't matter if it's an overtime game. Players that are being brought back slowly don't get played 35 minutes their first night back. Lol.

Sure they do. I've seen that happen before. The point is that had it not bee. For the overtime period, Pippen probably doesn't play that many minutes. And, they were still giving Sellers the opportunity to justify him being a lottery pick just 2 years before

[theman93]

I don't even see how you can compare the two by Allstar appearances. They don't even play the same position.
Not sure if you're being purposefully obtuse or failed to read the rest of the sentence. Also see: "mvp voting".

If Pippen was better than Ewing then why did Ewing consistently finish ahead of him in MVP voting?




Sure they do. I've seen that happen before. The point is that had it not bee. For the overtime period, Pippen probably doesn't play that many minutes. And, they were still giving Sellers the opportunity to justify him being a lottery pick just 2 years before

And yet his fourth game back he played 41 minutes without overtime. In no way, shape, or form does that equal being brought back slowly lol.

[Phoenix]

That's not it. I think the anomaly was King. He had a resurgence and his points jumped to almost 30 a game.

Yeah I doubt it was carry over from the migraine thing either. Hell, if the voters held things over from one season to the next for arbitrarily reasons, they'd likely have not voted for Scottie in 95 after the 1.8 second sit-out situation.

[97 bulls]

Not sure if you're being purposefully obtuse or failed to read the rest of the sentence. Also see: "mvp voting".

If Pippen was better than Ewing then why did Ewing consistently finish ahead of him in MVP voting?

I can see the MVP voting argument. That's why I left it out.




And yet his fourth game back he played 41 minutes without overtime. In no way, shape, or form does that equal being brought back slowly lol.
Bro. Look at the overall minutes hinsfirst few games. Most of them are in the 20s. Like I stated earlier. It happens. And, they still were giving Sellers an opportunity.

[97 bulls]

Yeah I doubt it was carry over from the migraine thing either. Hell, if the voters held things over from one season to the next for arbitrarily reasons, they'd likely have not voted for Scottie in 95 after the 1.8 second sit-out situation.

Exactly.

With regards to the migraine game. Again with the double standards here. Pippen lost his dad two weeks before that game 7. I personally think Pippen got beat up more than MJ did. Pippen is called soft for playing bad in that game smdh. He played over 40 minutes if my memory serves me correctly. Soft would've been him not playing.

[Baller789]

Exactly.

With regards to the migraine game. Again with the double standards here. Pippen lost his dad two weeks before that game 7. I personally think Pippen got beat up more than MJ did. Pippen is called soft for playing bad in that game smdh. He played over 40 minutes if my memory serves me correctly. Soft would've been him not playing.

2 weeks before the migraine?

:facepalm

[97 bulls]

2 weeks before the migraine?

:facepalm

Again with the double standard. Michael Jordan lost his father 3 months before he retired. And I'm sure you understood that right?

It's as if you guys see Pip as a robot.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Ewing was better in his prime, but not by much.

[beasted]

The MVP voting doesn't necessarily go to the best player. Nash has two MVPs and he was never the best player in the league. But the MVP and DPOY typically are the two most prestigious awards in my opinion. Pippen finished top 5 in both for 3 consecutive years. Again, how many players in history can make that claim? He might've won MVP in 96 had he not got hurt. He should've won DPOY in 95 and 96.


I'd take Pippen over Robinson and Malone this years. Not Shaq and definitely not Olajuwan.


Yes


To many moving parts. Those teams were built catered to those guys.


I agree. Pippen is a polarizing debate. But I'm not trying to convince you. I do feel he was a top 3-5 player at one time. Again, I can't change your mind. But we can't deny thr truth. MANY RESPECTED people in the NBA fraternity was calling Pippen the best to top 3 player in the league.


I've seen Pippen be compared to Lebron. https://youtu.be/gHvZmFkYVT0
Max Kellerman called Lebron a "blown up Pippen". I've always felt Lebron is Pippen on steroids.


But that the thing. You have an agenda. Or I should say you have a stance. And it seems to me, you want to call anyone that disagrees with you a person with an agenda.
Not an agenda if we're debating facts, but instead you're debating lies. There are no "many" respected people that said Pippen was top 3. Link just 5 respected people claiming this. I know you won't, and that's fine.

Just don't cap about me and an agenda.

[Baller789]

Again with the double standard. Michael Jordan lost his father 3 months before he retired. And I'm sure you understood that right?

It's as if you guys see Pip as a robot.

Deciding to retire while being on the mountaintop for 3 years is a lot different than having a migraine.

:lol

[Soundwave]

Ewing was a better player.

The Bulls would've beat the Pistons earlier if they had Jordan + Ewing instead of having to wait until 1991 with Jordan + Pippen.

Ewing would have 6-8 championships if he got to play basically the same number of years with a prime Jordan and the narrative around him would be completely different (he'd suddenly be the "ultimate winner" and all that stuff).

[97 bulls]

Deciding to retire while being on the mountaintop for 3 years is a lot different than having a migraine.

:lol

Right. One player played through his adversity, the other quit. Again showing your agenda.

[97 bulls]

Not an agenda if we're debating facts, but instead you're debating lies. There are no "many" respected people that said Pippen was top 3. Link just 5 respected people claiming this. I know you won't, and that's fine.

Just don't cap about me and an agenda.

So if I show you 5 respected people that said Pippen was top 3, will you respect it? And offer me an apology for calling me a liar?

[RogueBorg]

Right. One player played through his adversity, the other quit. Again showing your agenda.

Jordan was suspended.

[97 bulls]

Jordan was suspended.

Lol. You really believe that? If he was suspended, that's worse than Pippen sitting out that 1.8 seconds.

[Baller789]

Right. One player played through his adversity, the other quit. Again showing your agenda.

You are correct.

Pip sure played through the huge adversity of a migraine. :applause:

[RogueBorg]

Lol. You really believe that? If he was suspended, that's worse than Pippen sitting out that 1.8 seconds.

Pippen quit on his team, way worse. Then was crucified by everyone.

[bizil]

Ewing was a better player.

The Bulls would've beat the Pistons earlier if they had Jordan + Ewing instead of having to wait until 1991 with Jordan + Pippen.

Ewing would have 6-8 championships if he got to play basically the same number of years with a prime Jordan and the narrative around him would be completely different (he'd suddenly be the "ultimate winner" and all that stuff).


Not only that! BUT MJ would DEFER to Ewing scoring wise in a way he NEVER WOULD to Pippen. And if you gave Pat six rings, there's ACTUALLY a very good chance he goes down as a top 10-12 GOAT at one point in time. BECAUSE his peak-prime value would have dictated it. Pat with six rings COULD TRUMP some guys currently in the top 10-12 GOAT.

I just think Dream and David with their SF type athletic ability and skillset as a package plus Shaq being the most dominant force ever has made Pat's peak-prime value underrated. But the gap between Pat and those guys is MUCH SMALLER than the gap between Pip and Bird-Bron-KD-Doc. Once again Pip with six rings was NEVER seen on the GOAT level of a Bird, Doc, Baylor, or Barry before him. Pip has MORE NBA RINGS than all those guys COMBINED! Pat with six would SHAKE up the GOAT charts more than Pip was able to with six!

[3ba11]

Ewing was better in his prime, but not by much.


Pippen couldn't produce at elite levels on defense like Ewing, who wasn't much different than Hakeem or Robinson defensively - that was his class, so he had much better individual defensive stats and better team defenses without the defensive help (without MJ or Rodman).

Offensively, Ewing achieved elite scoring levels and carried teams to Finals with no all-star teammates (nearly beats Hakeem except for Starks 0-13 in Game 7)

Otoh, Pippen never achieved elite scoring and struggled with a 2nd option load (worst-ever efficiency)

[dankok8]

Ewing was a bit better because as a big he had so much defensive impact and circa 1990 his offense was better than Pippen's ever was. You can't use All-NBA teams as reasonable criteria because Ewing had to fight Shaq, Robinson and Hakeem for one C spot.

Not a big gap though and with Pippen's rings you can place him higher on the all time list and I won't have issues with it.

[3ba11]

Ewing was a bit better




That's like saying Embiid is a "bit better" than Iggy or Klay

[HoopsNY]

Pippen couldn't produce at elite levels on defense like Ewing, who wasn't much different than Hakeem or Robinson defensively - that was his class, so he had much better individual defensive stats and better team defenses without the defensive help (without MJ or Rodman).

Offensively, Ewing achieved elite scoring levels and carried teams to Finals with no all-star teammates (nearly beats Hakeem except for Starks 0-13 in Game 7)

Otoh, Pippen never achieved elite scoring and struggled with a 2nd option load (worst-ever efficiency)

Pippen's defensive impact can't be denied. In 1995, Chicago ranked 2nd in defense, and that's despite losing Grant who was an All-Defensive 2nd Team selection himself. So who was the difference maker for Chicago, defensively, that year?

I'll take Ewing over Pippen and it's a no brainer, but acting like Pippen couldn't produce elite levels on defense is a bit absurd.

And btw, not only was Pippen All-Defensive 1st Team in 1995, but he was 2nd in DPOY voting. Ewing didn't even get a vote that year.

[97 bulls]

Not only that! BUT MJ would DEFER to Ewing scoring wise in a way he NEVER WOULD to Pippen. And if you gave Pat six rings, there's ACTUALLY a very good chance he goes down as a top 10-12 GOAT at one point in time. BECAUSE his peak-prime value would have dictated it. Pat with six rings COULD TRUMP some guys currently in the top 10-12 GOAT.
Theres nothing that would indicate that Jordan would defer to Ewing in any way shape or form. Lol. Jordan took more shots on the Dreamteam than the next two players combined. He didn't have to.


I just think Dream and David with their SF type athletic ability and skillset as a package plus Shaq being the most dominant force ever has made Pat's peak-prime value underrated. But the gap between Pat and those guys is MUCH SMALLER than the gap between Pip and Bird-Bron-KD-Doc. Once again Pip with six rings was NEVER seen on the GOAT level of a Bird, Doc, Baylor, or Barry before him. Pip has MORE NBA RINGS than all those guys COMBINED! Pat with six would SHAKE up the GOAT charts more than Pip was able to with six!

You always come with these same arguments. Pippen as a number 2 is considered top 20-25 by most people. How many other number 2 are ranked that high? The gap between Pippen and Bird or James is no different than the gap between Ewing and Shaq or Olajuwan or Wilt.

You guys continue to take your personal views and try to justify them by saying everyone else thought the way you do. Or 'no one thought this way'. And you guys seem to be too ignorant to admit that's just not true.

[97 bulls]

Pippen's defensive impact can't be denied. In 1995, Chicago ranked 2nd in defense, and that's despite losing Grant who was an All-Defensive 2nd Team selection himself. So who was the difference maker for Chicago, defensively, that year?

I'll take Ewing over Pippen and it's a no brainer, but acting like Pippen couldn't produce elite levels on defense is a bit absurd.

And btw, not only was Pippen All-Defensive 1st Team in 1995, but he was 2nd in DPOY voting. Ewing didn't even get a vote that year.

Thank you. Talk about revisionist history. These guys don't care about how things were seen back then. They don't care about the facts. They're super illogical. It's weird coming from men.

[Phoenix]

Pippen's defensive impact can't be denied. In 1995, Chicago ranked 2nd in defense, and that's despite losing Grant who was an All-Defensive 2nd Team selection himself. So who was the difference maker for Chicago, defensively, that year?

I'll take Ewing over Pippen and it's a no brainer, but acting like Pippen couldn't produce elite levels on defense is a bit absurd.

And btw, not only was Pippen All-Defensive 1st Team in 1995, but he was 2nd in DPOY voting. Ewing didn't even get a vote that year.

Hell, he led the league in defensive rating that year ahead of Ewing, Robinson, Rodman, and Hakeem, as a perimeter player.

[HoopsNY]

Hell, he led the league in defensive rating that year ahead of Ewing, Robinson, Rodman, and Hakeem, as a perimeter player.

I.e., one of the greatest defensive players....EVER.

[Baller789]

Thank you. Talk about revisionist history. These guys don't care about how things were seen back then. They don't care about the facts. They're super illogical. It's weird coming from men.

Yes. Revisionist history.

Like the time Pippen powered through the adversity of a migraine.

:yaohappy:

[97 bulls]

Yes. Revisionist history.

Like the time Pippen powered through the adversity of a migraine.

:yaohappy:
Playing 40+ minutes says he powered through. I don't see the big deal. He played for goodness sake. He just had a bad game.

[RogueBorg]

Yes. Revisionist history.

Like the time Pippen powered through the adversity of a migraine.

:yaohappy:

:roll: I'm shutting it down for the night, funniest thing I've read tonight, everything else would be a let down.

[Baller789]

Playing 40+ minutes says he powered through. I don't see the big deal. He played for goodness sake. He just had a bad game.
You can't make this $h!t up people!
:roll:

[97 bulls]

You can't make this $h!t up people!
:roll:

Let me ask a few questions. Is your issue the fact that he had a bad game? Would you have as big of an issue with him if he never said he had a migraine?

[Baller789]

And yet everyone but a few posters on this forum feels Pippen was better. And for the record, my issue isn't with how you feel. It's thus flat out lie that no one then or now ranks Pip over Ewing. That's just wrong.

And let's not forget that Pippen was a large reason for that teams success.


Who here who isn't a Bronie ranks Pippen over Ewing?

I'll wait.


Me. LeBron James isn't on Jordan's level in my opinion.

But then you also come up with this gold nugget. :crazysam:

[3ba11]

Saying Pippen is better is like saying Embiid is a "bit better" than Iggy or Klay

Ewing played on the Embiid/Hakeem/Robinson level, while Pippen played on the Iggy/Klay level (actually below that based on the stats)

[97 bulls]

But then you also come up with this gold nugget. :crazysam:

Lol. I don't get it. I'm not a Pippen hater or a Lebron nut hugger. I'm a Bulls fan. You guys put Pippen in thr middle of this feud you have with the Lebron fans. And I ain't having it.

[Baller789]

Lol. I don't get it. I'm not a Pippen hater or a Lebron nut hugger. I'm a Bulls fan. You guys put Pippen in thr middle of this feud you have with the Lebron fans. And I ain't having it.

You said almost everyone in this forum felt Pip was better than Ewing.

So who are these people who are non-Bronies who have this opinion in this forum? Surely you can name a few other than yourself since they make up the majority public opinion.

[TheGoatest]

Who here seriously thinks that Patrick Ewing was a better player than The Great Scott Pippen? I'll wait.
Replies from the one jordon extremist/LeBron hater with many alts don't count. Serious posters only.

[RogueBorg]

Lol. I don't get it. I'm not a Pippen hater or a Lebron nut hugger. I'm a Bulls fan. You guys put Pippen in thr middle of this feud you have with the Lebron fans. And I ain't having it.

You got it backwards, Lebronstans put Pippen in the middle of the debate by claiming Jordan needed help while Lebron didn't.

Why in the world would Jordan fans insert Pippen in a debate between Jordan and Lebron?

https://i.pinimg.com/222x/a9/07/9d/a9079deded9c7c1ef5bd429e11679b56.jpg

[97 bulls]

You said almost everyone in this forum felt Pip was better than Ewing.

So who are these people who are non-Bronies who have this opinion in this forum? Surely you can name a few other than yourself since they make up the majority public opinion.

I'm talking about the people posting in this particular chat.

But I haven't seen a website or article ranking players that has Ewing over Pippen. Definitely not in the 90s.

[97 bulls]

You got it backwards, Lebronstans put Pippen in the middle of the debate by claiming Jordan needed help while Lebron didn't.

Why in the world would Jordan fans insert Pippen in a debate between Jordan and Lebron?

https://i.pinimg.com/222x/a9/07/9d/a9079deded9c7c1ef5bd429e11679b56.jpg

Obviously James needs help, that's why he jumps from team to team. But so did Jordan. All great players needed help to solidify their success. And that's what amazed me. Basketball is a team sport. How do we get to rhe point we are now where we totally omit the team aspect from the game by saying dumb shit like player A beat player B. No Team A beat Team B.

[3ba11]

I'm talking about the people posting in this particular chat.

But I haven't seen a website or article ranking players that has Ewing over Pippen. Definitely not in the 90s.


No one in the 90's thought Pippen compared to Ewing - ring count got Pippen a better career ranking in hindsight, not his Iggy-caliber play

Otoh, Ewing played like Hakeem or Robinson many years - he was in that class, but history punishes him for ring count

[RogueBorg]

Obviously James needs help, that's why he jumps from team to team. But so did Jordan. All great players needed help to solidify their success. And that's what amazed me. Basketball is a team sport. How do we get to rhe point we are now where we totally omit the team aspect from the game by saying dumb shit like player A beat player B. No Team A beat Team B.

It's the Lebronstans that makeup stupid chit that Lebron only needs a ball. The rest of us know it's a team game.

[GimmeThat]

It's the Lebronstans that makeup stupid chit that Lebron only needs the ball. The rest of us know it's a team game.

fixed

[GimmeThat]

No one in the 90's thought Pippen compared to Ewing - ring count got Pippen a better career ranking in hindsight, not his Iggy-caliber play

Otoh, Ewing played like Hakeem or Robinson many years - he was in that class, but history punishes him for ring count

revisionist can't do, so they say they will try and teach yet they only end up poisoning the mind

[GimmeThat]

You got it backwards, Lebronstans put Pippen in the middle of the debate by claiming Jordan needed help while Lebron didn't.

Why in the world would Jordan fans insert Pippen in a debate between Jordan and Lebron?

https://i.pinimg.com/222x/a9/07/9d/a9079deded9c7c1ef5bd429e11679b56.jpg

because Lebron's career doesn't include a consistent second best player

[theman93]

because Lebron's career doesn't include a consistent second best player

And he team hopped to make up for it. Same difference.

[HoopsNY]

No one in the 90's thought Pippen compared to Ewing - ring count got Pippen a better career ranking in hindsight, not his Iggy-caliber play

Otoh, Ewing played like Hakeem or Robinson many years - he was in that class, but history punishes him for ring count

This is true.

[Baller789]

I'm talking about the people posting in this particular chat.

In this particular thread?
So list these non-Bronies then.
Should be easy enough to do right?