What did Pippen want MJ to include about him in the Last Dance?

[3ba11]

What big shot did Pippen want included?

What series did Pippen achieve elite points, rebounds or assists?... So what big series does he want included?

What big series did Pippen want included where he WASN'T carried?

If pippen had done ANYTHING worthy of including, surely it would've been included!!.. Do you think MJ would leave off a series where Pippen outplayed the league MVP or hit a historic shot or had comparable 1b stats?

[Manny98]

No Pip, No Chip

[3ba11]

No Pip, No Chip


That's a timing issue where the only years that Jordan didn't have Pippen are the first few years where nearly EVERYONE fails to win playoff series such as Durant, Lebron, Giannis or Curry, among others.

Once he had 3 healthy years to develop his team (88'), he made the 2nd Round just like 06' Lebron.. The only difference is that he had a rookie low seed in a conference that required a super-team to win, while Lebron had a veteran high seed in a conference that 1-star teams were winning most years

[RRR3]

GRRR!! LeBron! GRRR!!! :mad:
:yaohappy:

[Hey Yo]

That's a timing issue where the only years that Jordan didn't have Pippen are the first few years where nearly EVERYONE fails to win playoff series such as Durant, Lebron, Giannis or Curry, among others.

Once he had 3 healthy years to develop his team (88'), he made the 2nd Round just like 06' Lebron.. The only difference is that he had a rookie low seed in a conference that required a super-team to win, while Lebron had a veteran high seed in a conference that 1-star teams were winning most years

How can a team with one All-star be considered a superteam?

[3ba11]

How can a team with one All-star be considered a superteam?


Sixers/Celtics were super-teams and they were winning the conference until 88'

The Pistons were the bridge between the super-team 80's and the expansion 90's, which spread the talent around evenly so there were no super-teams.. That's why MJ could rag-doll the league with just a low-producer like Pippen (pippen played 6 Finals below peak-horry level, aka 95' Finals)

But make no mistake - Dantley is a goat-level scorer and HOF - the 88-90' Pistons had 3x all-stars at every starting spot and were a Warriors-like dynasty that MJ had to knock off with a 100% organic team (lottery to dynasty).. So imagine Lebron's original Cavs knocking off a Warriors-like dynasty in the East to make the Finals.

[La Frescobaldi]

No Pip, No Chip

I seriously doubt there are ten players in NBA history who could have taken on Pippen’s role on those Bulls teams.

Magic Johnson can do it on offense absolutely and even better. Can run the court and transition… but can he play defense at that level? To me you can really leave out just about every other guard for similar reasons.
Jerry West could do it. Kobe could do it. For guards, I’m already running out of names.

Centers… too big and slow to do the Bulls transition game. is Tim Duncan a center? He could do it, maybe, with some pretty serious modifications because he can’t run like that either. Pippen in the fast break was a glory

LeBron. Bird. Havlicek. I mean we’re running out of names that can actually do that man’s job.

[3ba11]

I seriously doubt there are ten players in NBA history who could have taken on Pippen’s role on those Bulls teams.

Magic Johnson can do it on offense absolutely and even better. Can run the court and transition… but can he play defense at that level? To me you can really leave out just about every other guard for similar reasons.
Jerry West could do it. Kobe could do it. For guards, I’m already running out of names.

Centers… too big and slow to do the Bulls transition game. is Tim Duncan a center? He could do it, maybe, with some pretty serious modifications because he can’t run like that either. Pippen in the fast break was a glory

LeBron. Bird. Havlicek. I mean we’re running out of names that can actually do that man’s job.


the term "2nd option" means 2nd scoring option

2nd options are tasked with scoring - nearly every winning 2nd option in history could achieve elite scoring numbers that matched or exceeded the team's best player.. only MJ didn't need juggernaut scoring help or a go-to elite scorer at sidekick

So you can pretend that it's all about rebounds and assists but the reality is that scoring help is the biggest kind of help that everyone in history needed a ton of... except the GOAT

[La Frescobaldi]

the term "2nd option" means 2nd scoring option

2nd options are tasked with scoring - nearly every winning 2nd option in history could achieve elite scoring numbers that matched or exceeded the team's best player.. only MJ didn't need juggernaut scoring help or a go-to elite scorer at sidekick

So you can pretend that it's all about rebounds and assists but the reality is that scoring help is the biggest kind of help that everyone in history needed a ton of... except the GOAT

That garbage has already been destroyed long time ago, mosquito.

No Pip, no chip. Flat out fact.

[Round Mound]

Pippen wasn't a shooter but he was an awesome drive and dunk or on the break run transition and dunk player. He was similar to Dr J in that respect despite not being the scorer Doc was. Pippen though was a better passer and defender than Doc.

Scottie Pippen - Most Underrated - Sickest Dunk Compilation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2838Qp8069Y

[La Frescobaldi]

Pippen wasn't a shooter but he was an awesome drive and dunk or on the break run transition and dunk player. He was similar to Dr J in that respect despite not being the scorer Doc was. Pippen though was a better passer and defender than Doc.

Doc can’t stop three man fast break. Scottie did it on the casual.

Bulls don’t beat Bad Boys with Erving. I doubt they beat nyknickers. They beat Jazz though

[Round Mound]

Doc can’t stop three man fast break. Scottie did it on the casual.

Bulls don’t beat Bad Boys with Erving. I doubt they beat nyknickers. They beat Jazz though

:applause:

[3ba11]

That garbage has already been destroyed long time ago, mosquito.





It hasn't been refuted because I didn't start making that argument until this year... Pippen wasn't an elite scorer or go-to player, while nearly every other winning sidekick was.. So Jordan won 6 rings the rare way (without juggernaut scoring help).

You're saying it's all about rebounds, assists and hustle (role player shit), when history shows that everyone needed elite scorers at sidekick - only MJ could win with the lesser role player shit that you're talking about, while everyone else needed go-to players at sidekick to win..

So stop pretending that role player hustle shit is what it's really all about - Magic needed Kareem and Bird needed McHale to lead in scoring, while Lebron is the only guy that had sidekicks outplay league MVP's (Bosh outplayed 11' Rose.. Kyrie outplayed Curry... Wade outplayed FMVP Dirk... AD dominated Joker)...

Only a few guys won by carrying the scoring load (10 ppg more than sidekick in playoffs and Finals), and Jordan is the only guy that did it a bunch of times.. Jordan averaged 10-30 more than Pippen in every series, while everyone else in history had teammates match or exceed their ppg for entire playoff runs.

for numerous playoff runs, EVERYONE needed equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention, so they didn't always face maximum defensive attention - any period without facing maximum defensive attention is inflated stats compared to MJ, who carried the scoring load in every SERIES, let alone playoff run.

[La Frescobaldi]

:applause:

Barkley could do Scottie’s job if he would put his mind onto defense and keep it there. The dude was astonishing great.

Havlicek and Pippen was a similar game - what ever you need done, it gets done aka I will win even if that means me not scoring, my teammates will always be at their best when I’m on the floor.

[3ba11]

Barkley could do Scottie’s job if he would put his mind onto defense and keep it there. The dude was astonishing great.

Havlicek and Pippen was a similar game - what ever you need done, it gets done aka I will win even if that means me not scoring, my teammates will always be at their best when I’m on the floor.


By definition, the biggest responsibility a 2nd option has is scoring, and Pippen is among the worst of any winning sidekick

Everyone in history needed juggernaut scorers at sidekick except Jordan's 6 rings and a few one-offs, so who cares about your bullshit rebounds and defense - everyone needed SCORING - only MJ could win with the lesser shit and lesser player types that you're talking about

[Round Mound]

Barkley could do Scottie’s job if he would put his mind onto defense and keep it there. The dude was astonishing great.

Havlicek and Pippen was a similar game - what ever you need done, it gets done aka I will win even if that means me not scoring, my teammates will always be at their best when I’m on the floor.

True Chuck was laz on defense but a better shot blocker than Malone. He could actually block centers dunks right under the rim with no steps taken before the jump. When Chuck played mad (before joining the Suns) he was as devastating as Jordan. Charles also did not over shoot as much as other stars. In regards to Pippen when Jordan left 22 PPG on 49.1% FG is not bad for a perimeter player.

[Hey Yo]

Sixers/Celtics were super-teams and they were winning the conference until 88'

The Pistons were the bridge between the super-team 80's and the expansion 90's, which spread the talent around evenly so there were no super-teams.. That's why MJ could rag-doll the league with just a low-producer like Pippen (pippen played 6 Finals below peak-horry level, aka 95' Finals)

But make no mistake - Dantley is a goat-level scorer and HOF - the 88-90' Pistons had 3x all-stars at every starting spot and were a Warriors-like dynasty that MJ had to knock off with a 100% organic team (lottery to dynasty).. So imagine Lebron's original Cavs knocking off a Warriors-like dynasty in the East to make the Finals.

How can Detroit with one All-star, who won their conference, be considered a superteam was needed to win the conference?

[3ba11]

In regards to Pippen when Jordan left 22 PPG on 49.1% FG is not bad for a perimeter player.





Pippen's 22/5 is the worst peak of any 1st option

Outside the triangle and dynasty chemistry, Pippen was a 14 ppg dunker that couldn't score (89' and 99')

[SouBeachTalents]

By definition, the biggest responsibility a 2nd option has is scoring, and Pippen is among the worst of any winning sidekick

Everyone in history needed juggernaut scorers at sidekick except Jordan's 6 rings and a few one-offs, so who cares about your bullshit rebounds and defense - everyone needed SCORING - only MJ could win with the lesser shit and lesser player types that you're talking about
You know who didn't need juggernaut scorers? The team that sent Jordan's ass packing 3 years in a row. Forget sidekick, the Pistons didn't have a single player that outproduced prime Pippen :lol

[3ba11]

You know who didn't need juggernaut scorers? The team that sent Jordan's ass packing 3 years in a row. Forget sidekick, the Pistons didn't have a single player that outproduced prime Pippen :lol


Dumars averaged 27.0 and 6 assists in the 89' Finals when he won FMVP

again, ONLY PIPPEN wasn't an elite scoring or go-to sidekick - did you know that he never achieved elite ppg, rpg or apg in a single series of his career, while every other sidekick did?.. Since Pippen is the only sidekick that wasn't a threat for elite production, Jordan faced all the defensive attention (carried the scoring load for 6 titles), which few winning players have done even once

Anyone that won more than 2 Finals needed a teammate to win FMVP or average 25 for at least 1 of the Finals, yet Pippen is 0/6 at this standard of sidekick excellence

[La Frescobaldi]

True Chuck was laz on defense but a better shot blocker than Malone. He could actually block centers dunks right under the rim with no steps taken before the jump. When Chuck played mad (before joining the Suns) he was as devastating as Jordan. Charles also did not over shoot as much as other stars. In regards to Pippen when Jordan left 22 PPG on 49.1% FG is not bad for a perimeter player.

Malone can not do Pippen’s job never could. He was a great player but not correct for that job.
Paul Pierce at times could get it done at Pippen’s level but to me it wasn’t sustained full game.
You take a guy like Walt Frazier he can do all those things but he’s not able to go it against centers simply from sheer size and vertical limitations. That’s the same problem for all guards pretty much.

Pippen was pretty dang unique, a genius tbqh, which is why he will forever grinds on op guts which that fact fills this board with endless happiness.

[1987_Lakers]

Dumars averaged 27.0 and 6 assists in the 89' Finals when he won FMVP

again, ONLY PIPPEN wasn't an elite scoring or go-to sidekick - did you know that he never achieved elite ppg, rpg or apg in a single series of his career, while every other sidekick did?.. Since Pippen is the only sidekick that wasn't a threat for elite production, Jordan faced all the defensive attention (carried the scoring load for 6 titles), which few winning players have done even once

Anyone that won more than 2 Finals needed a teammate to win FMVP or average 25 for at least 1 of the Finals, yet Pippen is 0/6 at this standard of sidekick excellence

Dumars also averaged 13 ppg vs the Bulls in '89.

[3ba11]

Dumars also averaged 13 ppg vs the Bulls in '89.


Dumars had to share the scoring load with other viable 2nd options like 3x all-star Aguirre.. Pippen didn't have to share with anyone and averaged 9 on 40% in that series.

I would prefer a great shooter like Dumars that came off-screens and got hot all the time than an athlete/dunker like Pippen, whose primary advantage (physical) can be replicated by many good athletes (while his 5 apg and low efficiency can be replaced without difficulty as well).. A tough-minded, fundamentally-sound scorer like Dumars is hard to find.

[SouBeachTalents]

Dumars had to share the scoring load with other viable 2nd options like 3x all-star Aguirre.. Pippen didn't have to share with anyone and averaged 9 on 40% in that series.

I would prefer a great shooter like Dumars that came off-screens and got hot all the time than an athlete/dunker like Pippen, whose primary advantage (physical) can be replicated by many good athletes (while his 5 apg and low efficiency can be replaced without difficulty as well).. A tough-minded, fundamentally-sound scorer like Dumars is hard to find.
Please, Joe Dumars wasn't even better than '05 Larry Hughes. Total bum.

[3ba11]

Please, Joe Dumars wasn't even better than '05 Larry Hughes. Total bum.


Dumars and 05' Hughes are comparable just like Dumars and prime Pippen are comparable

I'd take Dumars first though because he could shoot and was a threat for elite scoring, so that took pressure off Isiah.. Hughes and Pippen were bricklayers that put it all on the 1st option to defeat max defensive attention (carry the scoring load)

[Hey Yo]

How can Detroit with one All-star, who won their conference, be considered a superteam was needed to win the conference?

Chico?

[La Frescobaldi]

Please, Joe Dumars wasn't even better than '05 Larry Hughes. Total bum.

Bulls don’t make it out of the first round with dumars instead of pippen.

[3ba11]

Malone can not do Pippen’s job never could.





Pippen's job was 5 apg and low efficiency, which tons of guys can replace, and his athleticism can be replaced by guys like antonio davis, horry or tons of guys.. He was just an athlete/dunker/transition player.

And Jordan was the primary defender on Magic, Drexler, Miller and Payton

so what was Pippen's..... "job"?... It was literally to be the only 90's sidekick that never got elite points, assists or rebounds in a single series

[La Frescobaldi]

Pippen's job was 5 apg and low efficiency, which tons of guys can replace, and his athleticism can be replaced by guys like antonio davis, horry or tons of guys.. He was just an athlete/dunker/transition player.

And Jordan was the primary defender on Magic, Drexler, Miller and Payton

so what was Pippen's..... "job"?... It was literally to be the only 90's sidekick that never got elite points, assists or rebounds in a single series

If you have to ask that you’ll never be a basketball fan.

[SouBeachTalents]

Pippen's job was 5 apg and low efficiency, which tons of guys can replace, and his athleticism can be replaced by guys like antonio davis, horry or tons of guys.. He was just an athlete/dunker/transition player.

And Jordan was the primary defender on Magic, Drexler, Miller and Payton

so what was Pippen's..... "job"?... It was literally to be the only 90's sidekick that never got elite points, assists or rebounds in a single series
His job was to take the Bulls from perennial first round exit to dynasty.

[3ba11]

Chico?


Heading into the 2015 season, Klay and Dray hadn't been all-stars yet - so the Curry Warriors were considered a dynasty with a bunch of first-timers because of their win rate and ground-breaking brand of ball,

Similarly, the Pistons were considered a dynasty because they beat historic super-teams from 87-89' and had a ground-breaking brand as well - they ultimately had 3x all-stars at every starting spot (except Rodman was a 2x all-star)

So Jordan had to overcome a dynasty of all-star-caliber veterans with a single all-star teammate and 100% organic team (lottery to dynasty)..

People forget that the Pistons beat the Lakers/Celtics by developing a physical brand that offset the talent gap, while Bulls ended the Pistons' physical brand by developing a BETTER brand based on perimeter finesse.. That's why the Pistons weren't competitive in 92' despite still being young - their brand was no longer the cutting edge brand.

That's how teams win organically - they develop the best brand and chemistry in the league like the Spurs, Warriors, 90's Bulls, 11' Mavs and 04' Pistons.. So Lebron never learned how to win (brand of ball... organic) and only learned how to team-hop (talent-based winning... all-star team strategy).. Since Lebron doesn't how to win (organic) and can't defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load in playoff and Finals of title run), he's inferior to Kobe.

Btw, notice how previous eras had an evolution of increasingly-superior brands (organic winning), but Lebron ruined that with his talent-based winning (super-team formation) - now it's a more of a talent-based game than growing brands of effective basketball.

[Hey Yo]

A one All-star team is not a superteam


Fact

[Phoenix]

OP, kindly go to 1992, take a look at all the 2nd option PPG scorers and list them in order from highest to lowest. Pippen averaged 21ppg that year, so since you say 'every 2nd option scored more', I expect that statement to be reflected in your findings.

Thanks in advance.

[Phoenix]

Please, Joe Dumars wasn't even better than '05 Larry Hughes. Total bum.

The hilarious thing about him using Larry Hughes in this context, he's saying 05 Hughes to equal to a guy who was a perennial all-nba/all defensive player in the 90's. Then wonders why people say the 90's was a shit era. 3nutball pretty much gift-wraps the argument for them.:lol

[iamgine]

Why ask us, we're not Pippen.

[pandiani17]

To answer OP, I think he wanted to be portrayed as one of the Top 10 players that he was, a perennial All-Star and a two-time Olympic champion. He said that he was seen as something of a role-player in the documentary, not the important piece of the dinasty that he was.

[8Ball]

2 things:

Pippen won 55 games without Jordan.
Jordan is 1-9 without Pippen.

[3ba11]

A one All-star team is not a superteam


Fact


Right - the Curry Warriors weren't a super-team, but they were a dynasty, just like the Bad Boys were a dynasty. The difference is that the Bad Boys beat super-teams 3 times (87' Celtics, 88' Celtics, 89' Lakers), while the Curry Warriors never did.

[3ba11]

The hilarious thing about him using Larry Hughes in this context, he's saying 05 Hughes to equal to a guy who was a perennial all-nba/all defensive player in the 90's. Then wonders why people say the 90's was a shit era. 3nutball pretty much gift-wraps the argument for them.:lol


Similar to Pippen, Hughes had 1 or 2 passable years - the difference is that he didn't play with MJ, who could win a bunch of rings with non-elite production from a sidekick.

The reality is that guys that can't get elite stats like Hughes or Pippen aren't "sidekicks" because their stats are so far below the 1st option.. True "sidekicks" get comparable stats as the 1st option - they don't get 19 and the 1st option gets 34 because that isn't a sidekick

Unlike Pippen/Hughes, a guy like Dumars was a sidekick because he could achieve elite stats (27 and 6 apg in 89' Finals) and had comparable stats to Isiah many years

[SouBeachTalents]

Similar to Pippen, Hughes had 1 or 2 passable years - the difference is that he didn't play with MJ, who could win a bunch of rings with non-elite production from a sidekick.

The reality is that guys that can't get elite stats like Hughes or Pippen aren't "sidekicks" because their stats are so far below the 1st option.. True "sidekicks" get comparable stats as the 1st option - they don't get 19 and the 1st option gets 34 because that isn't a sidekick

Unlike Pippen/Hughes, a guy like Dumars was a sidekick because he could achieve elite stats (27 and 6 apg in 89' Finals) and had comparable stats to Isiah many years
I'm asking you this genuinely, do you really not see how retarded it is to use a literal 4 game sample size out of a thousand in a players career to determine which one is better?

[3ba11]

.

Havlicek and Pippen was a similar game - what ever you need done, it gets done aka I will win even if that means me not scoring, my teammates will always be at their best when I’m on the floor.





If you can't dominate the scoring, then you can't do "everything" and actually can't do the most important thing.. stars must SCORE, otherwise they're role players.

Fortunately, Havlicek infact could and did dominate the scoring - he carried Russell to titles all the time - again, ONLY PIPPEN wasn't capable of elite scoring, assists, or rebounds in a playoff series

Everyone in history had teammates match or lead them in scoring for entire playoff runs, while MJ averaged 10-30 more than Pippen in every SERIES, let alone playoff run..

Since everyone else had equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention on numerous playoff runs, they didn't always face maximum defensive attention - any period without facing maximum defensive attention are inflated stats compared to Jordan, who carried the scoring load in every SERIES, let alone playoff run.

[3ba11]

I'm asking you this genuinely, do you really not see how retarded it is to use a literal 4 game sample size out of a thousand in a players career to determine which one is better?


Dumars led the Pistons in scoring all the time - he led the 90'' Pistons over the Bulls in the ECF and many more series or playoff runs

again - among winning sidekicks, ONLY PIPPEN wasn't capable of elite production and never led his team in a series (never a 1b, always carried)

Everyone in history had teammates match or lead them in scoring for entire playoff runs, while MJ averaged 10-30 more than Pippen in every SERIES, let alone playoff run..

[Hey Yo]

Right - the Curry Warriors weren't a super-team, but they were a dynasty, just like the Bad Boys were a dynasty. The difference is that the Bad Boys beat super-teams 3 times (87' Celtics, 88' Celtics, 89' Lakers), while the Curry Warriors never did.

1989 and 1990 All-star games each featured one single Detroit player..... Zeke.

One All-star doesn't = a superteam

[3ba11]

To answer OP, I think he wanted to be portrayed as one of the Top 10 players that he was, a perennial All-Star and a two-time Olympic champion. He said that he was seen as something of a role-player in the documentary, not the important piece of the dinasty that he was.


Yes - that's exactly accurate - people viewed him as getting those accolades for being 2nd option on the a title team, while infact being a system player that couldn't get his own shot or dominate - a lower producer and always carried.. the numbers confirm this

[3ba11]

1989 and 1990 All-star games each featured one single Detroit player..... Zeke.

One All-star doesn't = a superteam


Dumars was all-star and All-NBA in 1990

i'm ragdolling the SHIT out of you guys itt

Ultimately, the Pistons had 3x all-stars at every starting spot and were a dynasty that defeated 3 super-teams from 87-89'.. Jordan overcame a dynasty with 1 system player and no go-to teammates

[SouBeachTalents]

Dumars led the Pistons in scoring all the time - he led the 90'' Pistons over the Bulls in the ECF and many more series or playoff runs

again - among winning sidekicks, ONLY PIPPEN wasn't capable of elite production and never led his team in a series (never a 1b, always carried)

Everyone in history had teammates match or lead them in scoring for entire playoff runs, while MJ averaged 10-30 more than Pippen in every SERIES, let alone playoff run..
These were the scoring leaders during some of the series during the Bad Boys run

1988 ECSF: Isiah 20.4
1988 ECF: Isiah 23
1988 Finals: Dantley 21.3
1989 ECSF: Isiah 16
1989 ECF: Isiah 20.7
1990 ECSF: Edwards 19.4
1990 ECF: Dumars 20

Do you seriously believe Pippen wouldn't be leading the Pistons in scoring in several of those series :lol

[3ba11]

These were the scoring leaders during some of the series during the Bad Boys run

1988 ECSF: Isiah 20.4
1988 ECF: Isiah 23
1988 Finals: Dantley 21.3
1989 ECSF: Isiah 16
1989 ECF: Isiah 20.7
1990 ECSF: Edwards 19.4
1990 ECF: Dumars 20

Do you seriously believe Pippen wouldn't be leading the Pistons in scoring in several of those series :lol


Pippen couldn't get his own shot (system player) and couldn't do anything outside the triangle, so hell no

His efficiency was horrible

Pippen would be a 14 ppg role player on that team of go-to options, just like the 99' Rockets or Blazers

pippen FALLS BACK amongst go-to players because he isn't a go-to player that can get his own shot - he's a system player that was nothing without the triangle

On what planet can he score like Isiah, Dumars or Edwards - he was an ATHLETE that couldn't score

[tpols]

These were the scoring leaders during some of the series during the Bad Boys run

1988 ECSF: Isiah 20.4
1988 ECF: Isiah 23
1988 Finals: Dantley 21.3
1989 ECSF: Isiah 16
1989 ECF: Isiah 20.7
1990 ECSF: Edwards 19.4
1990 ECF: Dumars 20

Do you seriously believe Pippen wouldn't be leading the Pistons in scoring in several of those series :lol

Isiah Thomas and Dantley were way better scorers than Pippen. Are you serious? Dumars was too but Pippen was a better defender than all of them. Why would you assume Pippen would be tasked with scoring on dynasty teams loaded with offensive talent when he could focus on defense (like Rodman) instead?

Pippen for more than half his title runs was a teeny bop scorer on a team desperate for scoring. He would probably be a 13-14 ppg player on those loaded piston teams.

Imagine giving the ball to Pippen to score over Thomas, Dantley, Dumars or even Mark Aguirre who was a bona fide 25+ ppg scorer in his prime and topped out at 30 ppg. LOL. Pippen never came close to that.

[3ba11]

Isiah Thomas and Dantley were way better scorers than Pippen. Are you serious? Dumars was too but Pippen was a better defender than all of them. Why would you assume Pippen would be tasked with scoring on dynasty teams loaded with offensive talent when he could focus on defense (like Rodman) instead?

Pippen for more than half his title runs was a teeny bop scorer on a team desperate for scoring. He would probably be a 13-14 ppg player on those loaded piston teams.

Imagine giving the ball to Pippen to score over Thomas, Dantley, Dumars or even Mark Aguirre who was a bona fide 25+ ppg scorer in his prime and topped out at 30 ppg. LOL. Pippen never came close to that.


Boom

Bada bing bada boom

[Hey Yo]

Dumars was all-star and All-NBA in 1990

i'm ragdolling the SHIT out of you guys itt

Ultimately, the Pistons had 3x all-stars at every starting spot and were a dynasty that defeated 3 super-teams from 87-89'.. Jordan overcame a dynasty with 1 system player and no go-to teammates

You're the only one thinks a one All-star team = a superteam. That's why 2016 is considered the greatest Finals ever.... the huge underdog with one All-star was able to overcome such odds against them.

Speaking of All-NBA....when it comes to Dumars, his count?? You said they were media made with bullshit narratives? Glad to see you can acknowledge Pippen's greatness for making it on both sides of the court for 5 of MJ's *6 titles.

[Phoenix]

Similar to Pippen, Hughes had 1 or 2 passable years - the difference is that he didn't play with MJ, who could win a bunch of rings with non-elite production from a sidekick.

The reality is that guys that can't get elite stats like Hughes or Pippen aren't "sidekicks" because their stats are so far below the 1st option.. True "sidekicks" get comparable stats as the 1st option - they don't get 19 and the 1st option gets 34 because that isn't a sidekick

Unlike Pippen/Hughes, a guy like Dumars was a sidekick because he could achieve elite stats (27 and 6 apg in 89' Finals) and had comparable stats to Isiah many years

Working on that list?

[Phoenix]

I'm asking you this genuinely, do you really not see how retarded it is to use a literal 4 game sample size out of a thousand in a players career to determine which one is better?

3nutball simply can't think past PPG . As far as he's concerned someone like Kevin Martin was a better player.

[SouBeachTalents]

3nutball simply can't think past PPG . As far as he's concerned someone like Kevin Martin was a better player.
Kevin Martin > Bill Russell

[TheCorporation]

I seriously doubt there are ten players in NBA history who could have taken on Pippen’s role on those Bulls teams.

Magic Johnson can do it on offense absolutely and even better. Can run the court and transition… but can he play defense at that level? To me you can really leave out just about every other guard for similar reasons.
Jerry West could do it. Kobe could do it. For guards, I’m already running out of names.

Centers… too big and slow to do the Bulls transition game. is Tim Duncan a center? He could do it, maybe, with some pretty serious modifications because he can’t run like that either. Pippen in the fast break was a glory

LeBron. Bird. Havlicek. I mean we’re running out of names that can actually do that man’s job.

Ether :cheers:

Everyone knows...No Pip, No Chip.

[Phoenix]

Kevin Martin > Bill Russell

:cheers:

[3ba11]

3nutball simply can't think past PPG . As far as he's concerned someone like Kevin Martin was a better player.


PPG is the help that everyone needs, except MJ - everyone in history needed juggernaut scoring help except the GOAT

only MJ lacked a go-to teammate.. Even Hakeem needed an elite scorer (Drexler) - MJ is the only guy that won multiple rings without a go-to teammate (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?503212-Pau-was-a-go-to-player-Pippen-was-not&p=14564451#post14564451)

[Ne 1]

That's a timing issue where the only years that Jordan didn't have Pippen are the first few years where nearly EVERYONE fails to win playoff series such as Durant, Lebron, Giannis or Curry, among others.

Once he had 3 healthy years to develop his team (88'), he made the 2nd Round just like 06' Lebron.. The only difference is that he had a rookie low seed in a conference that required a super-team to win, while Lebron had a veteran high seed in a conference that 1-star teams were winning most years

it’s not a timing issue it’s a leadership issue. It’s not a coincidence.

[3ba11]

it’s not a timing issue it’s a leadership issue. It’s not a coincidence.


88' MJ was MVP and DPOY = goat leader, while Pippen wasn't a leader at any point in his career, especially as a 7-point rookie benchwarmer.. so it was a timing issue JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE - nearly everyone fails to win playoff series in their first few years like Durant, Lebron, Giannis or Curry, among others.

Once MJ had 3 healthy years to develop his team (88'), he made the 2nd Round just like 06' Lebron.. The only difference is that he had a rookie low seed in a conference that required a super-team to win, while Lebron had a veteran high seed in a conference that 1-star teams were winning most years

[Phoenix]

PPG is the help that everyone needs, except MJ - everyone in history needed juggernaut scoring help except the GOAT

only MJ lacked a go-to teammate.. Even Hakeem needed an elite scorer (Drexler) - MJ is the only guy that won multiple rings without a go-to teammate (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?503212-Pau-was-a-go-to-player-Pippen-was-not&p=14564451#post14564451)

List?