Pau was a go-to player; Pippen was not

[3ba11]

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Playoff Clutch Stats (last 5 within 5)

09' Pau......... 3.5 (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Playoffs)
10' Pau......... 1.6 (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=2009-10&SeasonType=Playoffs)

97' Pippen..... 1.6 (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)
98' Pippen..... 1.7 (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)


Finals Clutch Stats (last 5 within 5)

09' Pau......... 7.0* (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)
10' Pau......... 1.8* (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)

97' Pippen..... 1.0 (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)
98' Pippen..... 1.6 (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)

* Led Lakers


Pippen was near-last in clutch points in every series - he was a transition and system player, while Pau was a go-to option on the block, high post or screen action - a sophisticated big with touch that commanded doubles.

The Lakers ran repeated iso's with Pau and he was always a big factor on the scouting report (https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2022/qrDm8n.gif).

[Shogon]

Bro, whether your persona is genuine or fake... at this point... it doesn't matter.

Why are you doing this?

[ShawkFactory]

How could Kobe have won two titles while “defeating maximum defensive attention” while at the same time having Pau be a go to player who is a big part of the scouting report and who the Lakers ran “repeated” ISOs with?

[Kawhi_Why_Not]

Pau was the best low post scorer in the game at the time and bailed kobe out in game 7 finals 2010.

However, he doesn't even make out to 20% usage during the 09/10 rings

[3ba11]

How could Kobe have won two titles while “defeating maximum defensive attention” while at the same time having Pau be a go to player who is a big part of the scouting report and who the Lakers run multiple ISOs with?


We all learn as we go - I need to adjust my rankings a little bit - perhaps Kobe isn't #2.. Perhaps he's #3 or 4 or 5

My original ranking of Kobe (2) was based on him knowing how to win (organic) and also being able to defeat maximum defensive attention (carrying the scoring load) - Kobe carrying the scoring load was based on him leading his sidekick by 10 ppg in playoffs and Finals of a title run - this is pretty rare and he did it back-to-back..

But I can look past the sheer numbers and see that Pau was infact a go-to player that commanded doubles.. He took over many stretches and gave Kobe a break.. Pau wasn't some system player that needed the triangle to produce - Pau was a go-to player that produced outside the triangle, so Kobe's rings aren't quite the "carry-jobs" that Jordan's were, since Jordan was carrying a system player that couldn't otherwise score at viable levels.

[ShawkFactory]

We all learn as we go - I need to adjust my rankings a little bit - perhaps Kobe isn't #2.. Perhaps he's #3 or 4 or 5

My original ranking of Kobe (2) was based on him knowing how to win (organic) and also being able to defeat maximum defensive attention (carrying the scoring load) - Kobe carrying the scoring load was based on him leading his sidekick by 10 ppg in playoffs and Finals of a title run - this is pretty rare and he did it back-to-back..

But I can look past the sheer numbers and see that Pau was infact a go-to player that commanded doubles.. He took over many stretches and gave Kobe a break.. Pau wasn't some system player that needed the triangle to produce, so Kobe's rings aren't quite the "carry-jobs" that Jordan's were.

AKA you were trying to make a stupid agenda post about Pippen but got caught in an egregious logic contradiction.

[3ba11]

AKA you were trying to make a stupid agenda post about Pippen but got caught in an egregious logic contradiction.


Not really.. But it's good to understand the nuanced difference between MJ and Kobe's rings, which is that Pau wasn't some system player that needed the triangle to produce - Pau was a go-to player that produced outside the triangle, so Kobe's rings aren't quite the "carry-jobs" that Jordan's were, since Jordan was carrying a system player that couldn't otherwise score at viable levels.

[3ba11]

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Thread Cliffs

MJ is the only player in history that won multiple rings without a go-to teammate

[Hey Yo]

LOL @ Kobe won organic

[3ba11]

LOL @ Kobe won organic


You must be forgetting that the 04' Pistons and 11' Mavs didn't win the Finals based on talent - they won by having the best chemistry and brand of ball, which is similar to other organic winners like the Spurs, Warriors, 90's Bulls and 00's Lakers - they had all developed the best brand in the league..

That's how teams win organically - they develop the best brand in the league, which means that Lebron never learned how to win (brand of ball) and only learned how to team-hop (talent-based winning... all-star team strategy.. AAU team-stack strategy)... Otoh, Kobe learned the best brand in the league as required of organic winners, so he won organically

[Hey Yo]

All .... so that's your definition of organic today.

I'm sure you'll change it soon in a different thread.

[3ba11]

All .... so that's your definition of organic today.

I'm sure you'll change it soon in a different thread.


I've posted that shit for about 6 months now - based on your realization, i guess that's the time it takes your reading comp to kick in

[tpols]

Paus max scoring season was less than Pippens. He literally topped out at 21 ppg. Pippen topped out at 22. And Pau wasn't half the defender Pippen was. (he was soft / skinny unlike his brother marc)

So Kobe actually won with less.

[Hey Yo]

I've posted that shit for about 6 months now - based on your realization, i guess that's the time it takes your reading comp to kick in

Your definition has always been organically drafted teammates.

Same lies, DD

[3ba11]

Your definition has always been organically drafted teammates.

Same lies, DD


Perhaps I wasn't being clear - a team will fail to win with naturally-drafted players (organically), if they don't develop the best brand in the league - that's how teams win organically (with naturally-drafted players)

Lebron never learned the best brand, so he couldn't win with naturally-drafted players (organically) - he literally never learned to win (brand of ball, organic), so he sought a talent-based approach (all-star team strategy... AAU deck-stacking.. Peach Jam strategy)

[Loco 50]

Bro, whether your persona is genuine or fake... at this point... it doesn't matter.

Why are you doing this?

OCD. Can't help himself.

https://www.ocduk.org/ocd/types/

[3ba11]

Paus max scoring season was less than Pippens.





Not outside the triangle - Pippen averaged 12 ppg in his 7 years outside the triangle

Unlike Pippen, Pau was good immediately upon entering the league and averaged 18/9 and 2.1 blocks as a rookie - he didn't need the goat scorer as a model to develop his 7 ppg capability, nor did he need the triangle as a crutch to get good looks - Pau could create his own shot and wasn't just a system player like Pippen was

Since Pau was good regardless of system and was a go-to player, Kobe didn't always face the kind of defensive attention that MJ faced, since MJ was the only go-to player on the Bulls.

[Axe]

So op admits that pau gasol should have been finals mvp last 2010 and not kobe? Interesting.

[ShawkFactory]

Not outside the triangle - Pippen averaged 12 ppg in his 7 years outside the triangle

Unlike Pippen, Pau was good immediately upon entering the league and averaged 18/9 and 2.1 blocks as a rookie - he didn't need the goat scorer as a model to develop his 7 ppg capability, nor did he need the triangle as a crutch to get good looks - Pau could create his own shot and wasn't just a system player like Pippen was

Since Pau was good regardless of system and was a go-to player, Kobe didn't always face the kind of defensive attention that MJ faced, since MJ was the only go-to player on the Bulls.

That's that bar? I see an updated top 10 list from you in our future then.

[3ba11]

So op admits that pau gasol should have been finals mvp last 2010 and not kobe? Interesting.


Kobe was still the foundation of the team's scoring, but Pau was more help than Pippen on both ends of the floor tbh - Pau was a force in the paint

Unlike Pippen, Pau was good immediately upon entering the league and averaged 18/9 and 2.1 blocks as a rookie - he didn't need the goat scorer as a model to develop his 7 ppg capability, nor did he need the triangle as a crutch to get good looks - Pau could create his own shot and wasn't just a system player like Pippen was

Since Pau was good regardless of system or chemistry and was a go-to player, Kobe didn't always face the kind of defensive attention that MJ faced, since MJ was the only go-to player on the Bulls.

Ultimately, MJ is the only player that won multiple chips without a go-to teammate - this is the point of the thread.

[Axe]

Kobe was still the foundation of the team's scoring, but Pau was more help than Pippen on both ends of the floor tbh - Pau was a force in the paint

Unlike Pippen, Pau was good immediately upon entering the league and averaged 18/9 and 2.1 blocks as a rookie - he didn't need the goat scorer as a model to develop his 7 ppg capability, nor did he need the triangle as a crutch to get good looks - Pau could create his own shot and wasn't just a system player like Pippen was

Since Pau was good regardless of system or chemistry and was a go-to player, Kobe didn't always face the kind of defensive attention that MJ faced, since MJ was the only go-to player on the Bulls.

Ultimately, MJ is the only player that won multiple chips without a go-to teammate - this is the point of the thread.
You mean pau was also the reason why the lakers went on to win the championship 12 years ago? Ah ok.

[3ba11]

You mean pau was also the reason why the lakers went on to win the championship 12 years ago? Ah ok.


Jordan won with a sidekick that was a worse pure scorer than Lamar Odom - heck, Colin Cowherd thinks Pippen was an inferior pure scoring talent than the great Ron Harper:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg_-JIbekYM&t=05m20s


Unfortunately, the same logic that would put Klay over Embiid (rings) is used to put Pippen over Ewing... It's preposterous - Pippen is the most overrated player of all-time and this can be proven statistically - his production rate stats like PER, WS/48, OBPM or peak VORP rank around 100-120th, while his perceived rank is 21st by ESPdumb, aka most overrated player of all-time and simply inflated by winning spotlight and association with the GOAT and GOAT dynasty

[ImKobe]

So op admits that pau gasol should have been finals mvp last 2010 and not kobe? Interesting.

Not really. The numbers are close because of Gasol's efficiency as a Center but Kobe averaged 10 more ppgz and played elite defense & rebounded as well.

[1987_Lakers]

Pau, just like Pippen, was the best 2nd option in the NBA when both teams were winning chips.

As an individual player, Gasol was better than any player on the Celtics in 2010.

[3ba11]

That's that bar? I see an updated top 10 list from you in our future then.


Since Pau was good right away regardless of system or chemistry and was a go-to player, Kobe didn't always face the kind of defensive attention that MJ faced, since MJ was the only go-to player on the Bulls.

Every team in the 90's had 2 go-to players that were threats to get elite stats or lead the team in scoring, like when 5th option Jerome Kersey led the Blazers in the 90' Western Playoffs on the way to the Finals, or when Porter was basically Steph Curry in the 92' WCF to carry the Blazers to the Finals - these were the worst sidekicks that Jordan ever faced in the Finals, yet they played better than Pippen ever did on numerous playoff runs and series (Porter specifically)..

Pippen is the only 90's sidekick that never achieved elite stats in any playoff series (lowest peak) and never led his team (never a 1b) - his lack of threat forced MJ to face maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load), which is a rare way to win titles.. Even guys that carry the scoring load like 95' Hakeem still needed an elite scorer at sidekick like Drexler - only MJ won without an elite scorer at sidekick, aside from a few one-offs.. And only MJ lacked a go-to teammate in his career.

Ultimately, MJ is the only player that won multiple chips without a go-to teammate - this is the point of the thread... For example, Dirk did it once, and so did Chauncey (although Rip was kind of a go-to player), but only MJ did it more than once - even Kobe had a go-to teammate for all his rings (see thread title)

[Axe]

Pau, just like Pippen, was the best 2nd option in the NBA when both teams were winning chips.

As an individual player, Gasol was better than any player on the Celtics in 2010.
And just like pippen, he was much more coachable too than his first option bt.

[Axe]

Jordan won with a sidekick that was a worse pure scorer than Lamar Odom - heck, Colin Cowherd thinks Pippen was an inferior pure scoring talent than the great Ron Harper:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lg_-JIbekYM&t=05m20s


Unfortunately, the same logic that would put Klay over Embiid (rings) is used to put Pippen over Ewing... It's preposterous - Pippen is the most overrated player of all-time and this can be proven statistically - his production rate stats like PER, WS/48, OBPM or peak VORP rank around 100-120th, while his perceived rank is 21st by ESPdumb, aka most overrated player of all-time and simply inflated by winning spotlight and association with the GOAT and GOAT dynasty
At least those 'sidekicks' you are talking about aren't score-first ball hoggers too. ;)

[3ba11]

Pau, just like Pippen, was the best 2nd option in the NBA when both teams were winning chips.

As an individual player, Gasol was better than any player on the Celtics in 2010.


Nearly every good sidekick in the 90's was a 20/10 player in pts/rebs or pts/assists, so Pippen had the lowest peak of any 90's sidekick (22/5 or 21/7) - he's the only guy that never achieved elite levels in pts, rebs, or assists and he's the only sidekick that never led his team (never a 1b), aka he's the only sidekick that never faced defensive attention, was always carried and wasn't a go-to player

Since he's the only sidekick that wasn't a threat for elite production, he's the only sidekick that forced his 1st option to face maximum defensive attention (carry the scoring load).

So he's literally the worst 90's sidekick and completely inflated by the winning spotlight, as reflected in the goat gap between his production rate and perceived rank.

[1987_Lakers]

Nearly every good sidekick in the 90's was a 20/10 player in pts/rebs or pts/assists, so Pippen had the lowest peak of any 90's sidekick (22/5 or 21/7) - he's the only guy that never achieved elite levels in pts, rebs, or assists and he's the only sidekick that never led his team (never a 1b), aka he's the only sidekick that never faced defensive attention, was always carried and wasn't a go-to player

Since he's the only sidekick that wasn't a threat for elite production, he's the only sidekick that forced his 1st option to face maximum defensive attention (carry the scoring load).

So he's literally the worst 90's sidekick and completely inflated by the winning spotlight, as reflected in the goat gap between his production rate and perceived rank.

https://media2.giphy.com/media/pqfWqFtq5oTS/giphy.gif?cid=790b7611eaa41743aa8bf4ae7f593ec3fb44 8f0a4cb85e06&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g

[Axe]

Nearly every good sidekick in the 90's was a 20/10 player in pts/rebs or pts/assists, so Pippen had the lowest peak of any 90's sidekick (22/5 or 21/7) - he's the only guy that never achieved elite levels in pts, rebs, or assists and he's the only sidekick that never led his team (never a 1b), aka he's the only sidekick that never faced defensive attention, was always carried and wasn't a go-to player

Since he's the only sidekick that wasn't a threat for elite production, he's the only sidekick that forced his 1st option to face maximum defensive attention (carry the scoring load).

So he's literally the worst 90's sidekick and completely inflated by the winning spotlight, as reflected in the goat gap between his production rate and perceived rank.
Imagine being a 'sidekick with low/insignificant peak' but still managed to lead his team to the playoffs despite the absence of his flashy first option. :oldlol:

[3ba11]

https://media2.giphy.com/media/pqfWqFtq5oTS/giphy.gif?cid=790b7611eaa41743aa8bf4ae7f593ec3fb44 8f0a4cb85e06&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g


In the 90' Western Conference Playoffs, Jerome Kersey averaged 21/9 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kerseje01/gamelog/1990#24-39-sum:pgl_basic_playoffs) with 1.9 steals and 1.1 blocks - this led the Blazers in scoring and therefore faced defensive attention..

So who had more help between MJ and Drexler?... Drexler's 5th option (kersey) played better than Pippen ever did, and so did his sidekick Porter on the 90' and 92' runs, while still having perennial all-defender Buck Williams (rich man's horace) and 2x all-star Duckworth (another go-to offensive option)

The Bulls were clearly a 1-man show by comparison and the Blazers were supposedly the worst team they faced in the Finals.. It was Jordan and the jordanaires

[1987_Lakers]

And Pippen outplayed every player from the Blazers in the Finals.

[3ba11]

And Pippen outplayed every player from the Blazers in the Finals.


And yet Pippen was still a lower-tier producer and threat compared to elite-producers Porter and Drexler (who pippen didn't outplay of course)..

21/7 was Pippen's best-ever, but that's chump-change for alphas threats like Porter and Drexler (who were actually locked up by MJ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuSGY5Gnfro))

[Round Mound]

Could Pau take a team to 55 wins and average 22.0 PPG on 49.1% FG as a perimeter player, 8-9 RPG, 5-6 APG and almost 3.0 SPG and almost a BPG.?