Do you agree with Jason Kidd that LeBron's the GOAT?

[Johnny32]

“I think LeBron will go down as the greatest to do it. When you look at his numbers — what he’s done on and off the floor — no one’s done that. You got to put the whole package together. He’s the greatest of all-time,” Kidd said, per Dwain Price of Mavs.com.

I do. What about you?

[Johnny32]

lol awwww no thoughts on this from the obsessed haters?

[TheGoatest]

Seriously, does anyone truly think that 50 years from now people will be looking at a player with the possible career totals of 40K/10K/10K and think "this guy is NOT the GOAT"? You must be out of your damn mind if you think that. :roll:

[HoopsNY]

“I think LeBron will go down as the greatest to do it. When you look at his numbers — what he’s done on and off the floor — no one’s done that. You got to put the whole package together. He’s the greatest of all-time,” Kidd said, per Dwain Price of Mavs.com.

I do. What about you?

Yea, can't blame Kidd when he's assessing the entire package of a career. What's interesting is that he's including what LeBron has done off the court. I'm not sure how to assess that (or even what he really means - player empowerment, social justice, activism?).

I'd respectfully disagree, and I'm sure most of the basketball world does, but what's key is that everyone has their own definition of what the GOAT is before they even select an individual player.

[TheGoatest]

Personally, I don't think anything but on-court individual accomplishments would be considered when determining the GOAT.
If we talk about "impact", then we all know who was more impactful between Allen Iverson and Tim Duncan, yet who was twice as good as a player on the court.

[Johnny32]

Personally, I don't think anything but on-court individual accomplishments would be considered when determining the GOAT.
If we talk about "impact", then we all know who was more impactful between Allen Iverson and Tim Duncan, yet who was twice as good as a player on the court.

When a player does something bad off the court it negatively affects their legacy. I guess some people look at it like that when they do positives off the court. In lebron's case...he's the goat both on and off so it doesn't really matter how you look at it.

[Clippersfan86]

No.

[theman93]

Why would I agree with an individual who contradicts himself?


My game was to play defense and make my teammates better. The most important stat to me was that left column - winning. Nothing else matters. - Jason Kidd

https://quotefancy.com/quote/1272905/Jason-Kidd-I-came-in-the-league-as-not-a-shooter-not-a-scorer-My-game-was-to-play-defense

[1987_Lakers]

No.

I thought you were dead.

[Dbrog]

Why would I agree with an individual who contradicts himself?



https://quotefancy.com/quote/1272905/Jason-Kidd-I-came-in-the-league-as-not-a-shooter-not-a-scorer-My-game-was-to-play-defense

Exactly this. People will look back on Bron and see a dude who had 6 or 7 alpha guys with more championships and wonder why anyone would think of Bron as the GOAT. Then they will look even closer at the teams he was on compared to others and understand that there's absolutely 0 way to consider him the GOAT. I suppose the only way someone could make the case is if Stats are their main criteria and don't want to include Wilt because he's from "too old" of an era.

[Clippersfan86]

I thought you were dead.

I’ve had access for almost two years now. Hope you’re well.

[John_Connor]

so is Karl malone ahead of jordan. he has more points, rebounds and nearly as many assists with a higher fg%. more blocks. almost the same steals. played longer.


totals = poor man record

why is the scoring champion a ppg stat but the all time scoring champion a totals stat

makes no sense


and just because lebron ruined titles for everyone's legacies in this era doesn't mean guys can't use them for their legacies from past more competitive eras

[TheGoatest]

Why would I agree with an individual who contradicts himself?



https://quotefancy.com/quote/1272905/Jason-Kidd-I-came-in-the-league-as-not-a-shooter-not-a-scorer-My-game-was-to-play-defense

You and your alts do a pretty good job of contradicting yourself and switching back and forth between winning being more important in a GOAT than stats until someone mentions Bill Russell, that is. Then stats are also important, until someone mentions LeBron, then winning is suddenly more important again. :roll:

[Manny98]

Don't really care, Jordan and LeBron are #1 & #2 in my eyes I don't think there's a right or wrong answer on who's better

[1987_Lakers]

Don't really care, Jordan and LeBron are #1 & #2 in my eyes I don't think there's a right or wrong answer on who's better

:cheers:

One thing is for sure, Kobe is nowhere near the GOAT convo.

[John_Connor]

Don't really care, Jordan and LeBron are #1 & #2 in my eyes I don't think there's a right or wrong answer on who's better

well jordan has like 75% of the player vote for goat. Kobe and lebron have 10% each and for fans it's closer to 90% in favor of jordan so I would say there's a definite right and wrong answer

il take the guy that was better at scoring, defending and winning

[Legend248]

:cheers:

One thing is for sure, Kobe is nowhere near the GOAT convo.

Says who? You? A ****ing peasant?

[1987_Lakers]

Says who? You? A ****ing peasant?

Pretty much every real NBA fan. Maybe to the retard casuals he is in the convo.

[John_Connor]

Says who? You? A ****ing peasant?

players voted kobe and lebron both at 10% for goat. I dunno why he's ignoring facts

[TheGoatest]

so is Karl malone ahead of jordan. he has more points, rebounds and nearly as many assists with a higher fg%. more blocks. almost the same steals. played longer.


So is Chauncey Billups ahead of Karl Malone? :roll:
Is Allen Iverson ahead of Kareem? :roll:
We can go back and forth with extreme examples all day.
But the fact is that LeBron's overall body of work, individual combined with his longevity is greater than Jordan's. 27.1, 7.5 & 7.4 over 1365 games > 30.1, 6.2 & 5.3 over 1072 games.

[1987_Lakers]

players voted kobe and lebron both at 10% for goat. I dunno why he's ignoring facts

Didn't you post a poll which had Kobe somewhere near the top but it also had Iverson somewhere around the top 5 or 10 as well???

:roll:

That's all I need to know.

[John_Connor]

Pretty much every real NBA fan. Maybe to the retard casuals he is in the convo.

neither kobe or lebron are in the goat discussion. they both just have insanely biased fans. a real goat discussion is when the majority of their non fans say he's in the goat discussion. kobe has a few crazy obsessed players on his side. lebron has a few crazy obsessed media members. both have a few crazy obsessed fans.


Jordan has an entire planet on his side

[noonereal]

“I think LeBron will go down as the greatest to do it. When you look at his numbers — what he’s done on and off the floor — no one’s done that. You got to put the whole package together. He’s the greatest of all-time,” Kidd said, per Dwain Price of Mavs.com.

I do. What about you?


I think your basketball world is small.
You honestly think we need more threads on LeBron, kobe and mj?

Wtf is wrong with you people?

Where caN i find a real basketball board??

[1987_Lakers]

I think your basketball world is small.
You honestly think we need more threads on LeBron, kobe and mj?

Wtf is wrong with you people?

Where caN i find a real basketball board??
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=2004777

You're welcome.

[theman93]

You and your alts do a pretty good job of contradicting yourself and switching back and forth between winning being more important in a GOAT than stats until someone mentions Bill Russell, that is. Then stats are also important, until someone mentions LeBron, then winning is suddenly more important again. :roll:

Well TheCorporation, the last person to talk about alts should be yourself :lol. I'm an original. The combination of winning, statistics, and accolades reveals who is greater. That has always been my standard. You're stuck on longevity statistics.

[John_Connor]

Didn't you post a poll which had Kobe somewhere near the top but it also had Iverson somewhere around the top 5 or 10 as well???

:roll:

That's all I need to know.

13th.. all I said was this is how fans see it. kobes 4th btw.

https://www.ranker.com/crowdranked-list/the-top-nba-players-of-all-time

lebrons definitely gonna have a clear advantage cause he's playing right now. I can agree lebron has more current fans searching the internet for polls. kobes also 3rd in up votes. I can live with these rankings among fans. kobes been dead for a while and hasn't played in almost 6 years. hasn't won in 12 years.

I like how kobes legacy only grows among fans and players. he's aging gracefully

his highlights are fun to watch. lebrons aren't. kobes story is intriguing and inspiring. lebrons is ugly and tainted

I see lebron fading away like Kareem. totals are boring. kids 20 years from now won't be jacking it to longevity stats sorry

[John_Connor]

HBO said they're doing a kobe/shaq winning time style show after this one. that's when you know your legacies are emortal. nobodies making a show about lebron getting bailed out or colluding or tampering, getting guys suspended, playing in a bubble or averaging 30ppg on an 11th seed

[1987_Lakers]

HBO said they're doing a kobe/shaq winning time style show after this one. that's when you know your legacies are emortal. nobodies making a show about lebron getting bailed out or colluding or tampering, getting guys suspended, playing in a bubble or averaging 30ppg on an 11th seed

Can't wait. It will only refresh people's memories on who was the real MVP on that team.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=lIL0AsIY29s&feature=emb_title

[1987_Lakers]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oIGNESxiH0

[John_Connor]

Can't wait. It will only refresh people's memories on who was the real MVP on that team.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIL0AsIY29s

as long as they show kobe dominating the spurs/kings and saving series vs portland and shaq dominating the Pacers, nets and sixers in the pro bowl after the title was already won basically then the people at home will know who the real mvp was

[3ba11]

Every mainstream poll shows Jordan as #1 by wide margins OP

Lebron never learned how to win (organic) and can't defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load)

[Johnny32]

Exactly this. People will look back on Bron and see a dude who had 6 or 7 alpha guys with more championships and wonder why anyone would think of Bron as the GOAT. Then they will look even closer at the teams he was on compared to others and understand that there's absolutely 0 way to consider him the GOAT. I suppose the only way someone could make the case is if Stats are their main criteria and don't want to include Wilt because he's from "too old" of an era.

Tard post. Winning is a team accomplishment. It's a factor but certainly not the only one. Lebron has won more in his era than anyone else vs much tougher competition.

[Johnny32]

so is Karl malone ahead of jordan. he has more points, rebounds and nearly as many assists with a higher fg%. more blocks. almost the same steals. played longer.


totals = poor man record

why is the scoring champion a ppg stat but the all time scoring champion a totals stat

makes no sense


and just because lebron ruined titles for everyone's legacies in this era doesn't mean guys can't use them for their legacies from past more competitive eras

Such a stupid argument from a very simple mind. Go away.

[John_Connor]

Such a stupid argument from a very simple mind. Go away.

low IQ response

you know lebron is 9th in total points this season right.. is he the 9th best scorer?

[Johnny32]

I think your basketball world is small.
You honestly think we need more threads on LeBron, kobe and mj?

Wtf is wrong with you people?

Where caN i find a real basketball board??

Bye.

[bizil]

Bron FOR SURE is the best all around player ever! And that's a great distinction to have. But GOAT wise, he still hasn't passed MJ by yet. Thing is MANY consider MJ the GOAT in ALL OF AMERICAN TEAM SPORTS STILL! Brady has closed the gap on that MORE than anybody recently. Even more than Bron. So if Bron passes MJ by, we GOTTA call him arguably the GOAT in all of American Team Sports. Bron isn't quite there yet.

[Johnny32]

low IQ response

you know lebron is 9th in total points this season right.. is he the 9th best scorer?

You're so pathetically in denial you're desperately trying to argue lebron isn't in the goat convo when mj vs lebron is currently the only goat discussion anyone has. Why are you still posting in my thread?

[Johnny32]

Every mainstream poll shows Jordan as #1 by wide margins OP

Lebron never learned how to win (organic) and can't defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load)

No one cares what casuals think.

[3ba11]

No one cares what casuals think.


Player, coach and GM polls show MJ #1 by the same wide margins

No ball-dominator type can be goat - it isn't the top skillset and therefore requires more help and wins much less

[Airupthere]

Bron FOR SURE is the best all around player ever! And that's a great distinction to have. But GOAT wise, he still hasn't passed MJ by yet. Thing is MANY consider MJ the GOAT in ALL OF AMERICAN TEAM SPORTS STILL! Brady has closed the gap on that MORE than anybody recently. Even more than Bron. So if Bron passes MJ by, we GOTTA call him arguably the GOAT in all of American Team Sports. Bron isn't quite there yet.

Interesting point

[3ba11]

Bron FOR SURE is the best all around player ever!





How can anyone say that when he can't play off-the-ball or ball movement - it's an entire branch of superior, winning basketball that he can't play and struggles on the highest level with super-teams - 4/10 including 2 teammate bailouts

Ball-dominators like Lebron, Luka or Harden seemingly have well-rounded stats but are infact limited to playing 1 way (ball-dominance) - these ball-dominant skillsets tie a coach's hands and forces them to employ a simpleton, low-team-assist brand where 1 guy hogs the team's assists.. it's a paper tiger that requires ridiculous supporting talent to win.

[John_Connor]

You're so pathetically in denial you're desperately trying to argue lebron isn't in the goat convo when mj vs lebron is currently the only goat discussion anyone has. Why are you still posting in my thread?

there is no goat convo. 90% of fans and 80% of players have jordan #1

like 5% of fans have lebron/kobe and 10% of players have lebron/kobe

for you to say lebron is in the goat convo you would have to say kobe is. but its really just their hardcore stans ignoring the glaring truth. nobody will touch jordan until another guy wins

7 titles
7 finals mvps
7-0 in finals
6 league mvps
11 scoring titles
2 dpoty awards
averages 31ppg for his career
jumps from the three point line in a dunk contest
wins in a tough/physical era
never colludes
never ring chases
has the most aesthetically pleasing highlights
sells the most shoes
has a worldwide brand bigger than jordans


theres a reason people say so and so is the michael jordan of their sport

[bizil]

How can anyone say that when he can't play off-the-ball or ball movement - it's an entire branch of superior, winning basketball that he can't play

SMH!!! I NEVER SAID Bron was the MOST SKILLED PLAYER!!! By OVERALL skilled (not just scoring skillset alone), I'm talking scoring skillset, handles, passing, rebounding for their position, and defense as a package. For me, that's MJ and Kobe among the perimeter players. For PF's I would say KG. For C's, I would say Embid, Dream, and Robinson would be up for that.

BEST ALL AROUND means scoring, passing, defense, two way positional versatility, and rebounding as a package. NOT THE SKILLS USED TO GET THEM!! But the RESULTS! When you look at it like that, Bron is EASILY the best all around player ever. The only player I see coming down the pike who could challenge Bron in that realm is Giannis.

[3ba11]

SMH!!! I NEVER SAID Bron was the MOST SKILLED PLAYER!!! By OVERALL skilled (not just scoring skillset alone), I'm talking scoring skillset, handles, passing, rebounding for their position, and defense as a package. For me, that's MJ and Kobe among the perimeter players. For PF's I would say KG. For C's, I would say Embid, Dream, and Robinson would be up for that.

BEST ALL AROUND means scoring, passing, defense, two way positional versatility, and rebounding as a package. NOT THE SKILLS USED TO GET THEM!! But the RESULTS! When you look at it like that, Bron is EASILY the best all around player ever. The only player I see coming down the pike who could challenge Bron in that realm is Giannis.


I understand your distinction, but I guess "all-round" is a poor descriptor of the ball-dominator skillset.

Ball-dominators like Lebron, Luka or Harden seemingly have well-rounded stats but are infact limited to playing 1 way (ball-dominance) - these ball-dominant skillsets tie a coach's hands and forces them to employ a simpleton, low-team-assist brand where 1 guy hogs the team's assists.. it's a paper tiger that requires ridiculous supporting talent to win.

Ultimately, if a guy is a ball-dominator and can only play 1 way, then they aren't an all-round.. "All-round" requires, among others: 1) elite jumpshooting skill and 2) elite ball movement capability (off-screen)

These are major tenets of the game - if a player lacks one or both, then there's an entire branch of superior basketball that they can't play, so they aren't "all-round"

[Johnny32]

Player, coach and GM polls show MJ #1 by the same wide margins

No ball-dominator type can be goat - it isn't the top skillset and therefore requires more help and wins much less

Does the autistic window licker really want to talk about help? MJ had the goat coach, a top 5 all around sidekick, the goat 3pt shooter percentage wise, a 6th man of the year and all defensive bigs grabbing boards and defending the paint. You're delusional.

[Johnny32]

How can anyone say that when he can't play off-the-ball or ball movement - it's an entire branch of superior, winning basketball that he can't play and struggles on the highest level with super-teams - 4/10 including 2 teammate bailouts

Ball-dominators like Lebron, Luka or Harden seemingly have well-rounded stats but are infact limited to playing 1 way (ball-dominance) - these ball-dominant skillsets tie a coach's hands and forces them to employ a simpleton, low-team-assist brand where 1 guy hogs the team's assists.. it's a paper tiger that requires ridiculous supporting talent to win.

Lebron's playing excellent off the ball this season. You don't even watch the games do ya, fatboy?

[3ba11]

Lebron's playing excellent off the ball this season. You don't even watch the games do ya, fatboy?


He's the worst off-ball player among frontcourt players as the only frontcourt player with a point guard hold-time (time of possession)

Frontcourt players like Durant, Jokic and Giannis need 50% less hold-time to get superior stats, which allows superior brand of ball/offensive strategy and better teammate fits - the superior brand and chemistry means their skillset is superior - superior skillsets win far more with far less and aren't a perennial underachiever of expectation like Bron is

[Johnny32]

Hurrr, no one will pass mj until they win 7 titles despite the fact he never passed Russell's 11, durrr.

It's like these players played in different eras vs different competition and you can't directly compare their team accomplishments. You can only compare how much they won vs their peers.

MJ didn't win shit vs his real peers magic and bird until their teams were done and in bird's case he never beat him.

Lebron has beat td, kd and curry for championships. That's three future top 10 all time players. His legacy will age much better than mj's when the nostalgia driven 60 year old fangirls in the media now die off.

[3ba11]

Hurrr, no one will pass mj until they win 7 titles despite the fact he never passed Russell's 11, durrr.

It's like these players played in different eras vs different competition and you can't directly compare their team accomplishments. You can only compare how much they won vs their peers.

MJ didn't win shit vs his real peers magic and bird until their teams were done and in bird's case he never beat him.

Lebron has beat td, kd and curry for championships. That's three future top 10 all time players. His legacy will age much better than mj's when the nostalgia driven 50 year old fangirls in the media now die off.


Russell was carried for most of his titles and wasn't 1st option, or 2nd or 3rd - so only Jordan won 6 as 1st option and as the clear-cut best player

[Johnny32]

Russell was carried for most of his titles and wasn't 1st option, or 2nd or 3rd - so only Jordan won 6 as 1st option and as the clear-cut best player

Russell was the clear cut best player for boston, tard.

[Johnny32]

He's the worst off-ball player among frontcourt players as the only frontcourt player with a point guard hold-time (time of possession)

Frontcourt players like Durant, Jokic and Giannis need 50% less hold-time to get superior stats, which allows superior brand of ball/offensive strategy and better teammate fits - the superior brand and chemistry means their skillset is superior - superior skillsets win far more with far less and aren't a perennial underachiever of expectation like Bron is

Like i said...fatboy isn't watching the games.

[3ba11]

Like i said...fatboy isn't watching the games.


You don't understand Lebron's game if you think he employs an elite offensive strategy or has good teammate fits

That's preposterous.. Why do you think he's losing this year and always underachieves expectation?.. you think it's because their offense is good and he's fostered a good fit with Westbrook?

He literally holds the ball nearly twice as long as other good frontcourt players, which leaves no time for good brand of ball.. You just don't understand his game or basketball

[Spurs m8]

God you are a dumb fvck, johnny

There's no other way to describe it

Painfully stupid

[3ba11]

God you are a dumb fvck, johnny

There's no other way to describe it

Painfully stupid


Seems poorly educated.. We don't mind the poorly educated tho.

[Johnny32]

God you are a dumb fvck, johnny

There's no other way to describe it

Painfully stupid

Beg for attention elsewhere.

[Johnny32]

You don't understand Lebron's game if you think he employs an elite offensive strategy or has good teammate fits

That's preposterous.. Why do you think he's losing this year and always underachieves expectation?.. you think it's because their offense is good and he's fostered a good fit with Westbrook?

He literally holds the ball nearly twice as long as other good frontcourt players, which leaves no time for good brand of ball.. You just don't understand his game or basketball

One more time for the autistic slow kid. Lebron's been excellent off ball this season. Far better than at any time in his career. When you watch a lakers game (you don't) it's been consistently pointed out this season.

This kind of reminds me of your tard argument about how lebron can only win playing bron ball with 3pt shooters. When he infact won with a average to bad 3pt shooting team that was second in the lg in postups.

Lebron's greatness is making your autistic driven spam posts irrelevant. You're either too stupid or too lazy to update your material.

[Johnny32]

Run forrest, run.

[BigShotBob]

No

[kawhileonard2]

Hurrr, no one will pass mj until they win 7 titles despite the fact he never passed Russell's 11, durrr.

It's like these players played in different eras vs different competition and you can't directly compare their team accomplishments. You can only compare how much they won vs their peers.

MJ didn't win shit vs his real peers magic and bird until their teams were done and in bird's case he never beat him.

Lebron has beat td, kd and curry for championships. That's three future top 10 all time players. His legacy will age much better than mj's when the nostalgia driven 60 year old fangirls in the media now die off.

Russell won 11 titles without ever having to win 4 series in any year, in fact he only had to win 2 series to win titles.

Lebron lost with HCA to guys like Dirk and Dwight Howard and never beat them and he won bronze medals with peak Duncan, Iverson, Wade on his squads.

[Baller789]

Russell won 11 titles without ever having to win 4 series in any year, in fact he only had to win 2 series to win titles.

Lebron lost with HCA to guys like Dirk and Dwight Howard and never beat them and he won bronze medals with peak Duncan, Iverson, Wade on his squads.

Ouch.

[HylianNightmare]

4 rings

[TheGoatest]

4 rings

Only 2 less than the guy who has 5 less rings than Bill Russell, yet still call the GOAT. :oldlol:

[Nb1]

Depends on which criteria people want to apply.

If you go for titles won, then Bill Russel is the clear number 1 and the GOAT.

If you go by anything else, then Lebron is the clear number 1 and the GOAT.

Others are so far behind that they aren't even playing in the same universe and should never be considered.

But since it's a team sport and we're talking about an individual title, there's a clear case for Lebron being the GOAT. Other superstars could only win with the same team. Lebron won with 3 different teams as a first option which means he's clearly the best.