For what it's worth, Jokic & Giannis on pace to break the single season PER record

[1987_Lakers]

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/per_season.html

I don't put huge stock into that stat, but I honestly didn't know this. A bunch of people always use PER, thought I would have seen this being discussed on ISH.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Just a ridiculously stacked era.

Today to be the best you have to dominate in multiple facets. Jokic isn't just a good passer, he's arguably the best. While being by far the best post scorer in the NBA and an elite rebounder. Exceptionally high bball IQ as well.

LeBron changed the NBA

Giannis, Jokic, and luka are all LeBron disciples.

Lebron pioneered this super player era and it adds to his legacy.

[SouBeachTalents]

Jokic's also on pace to finish 12th in WS/48, 1st in BPM, and 24th in VORP

[1987_Lakers]

Jokic's also on pace to finish 12th in WS/48, 1st in BPM, and 24th in VORP

For a sec I thought you were talking about 2022 ranks, then realized those are all-time single season ranks.

:biggums:

[post]

Jokic's also on pace to finish 12th in WS/48, 1st in BPM, and 24th in VORP

https://c.tenor.com/v4lXNXt2mHEAAAAC/good-that-boy-good.gif

[BigShotBob]

Just a ridiculously stacked era.

Today to be the best you have to dominate in multiple facets. Jokic isn't just a good passer, he's arguably the best. While being by far the best post scorer in the NBA and an elite rebounder. Exceptionally high bball IQ as well.

LeBron changed the NBA

Giannis, Jokic, and luka are all LeBron disciples.

Lebron pioneered this super player era and it adds to his legacy.

I know you're brain-dead trolling but no

[tontoz]

As I understand it the big flaw with PER is that it overvalues inefficient scoring. You can raise your per just by chucking up shots even if you shoot a bad percentage.

Neither guy does that though. I do wish Giannis would stop shooting 3s ffs.

[Im Still Ballin]

Hard to analyze stats across eras, even advanced ones. However, the eye test doesn't lie: these guys are all-timers. No doubt about it. These two are looking like the best of their era.

[AlternativeAcc.]

I know you're brain-dead trolling but no

All the best players are multifaceted beasts like lebron.. they took pages out of his book.

He changed the NBA.

[SouBeachTalents]

For a sec I thought you were talking about 2022 ranks, then realized those are all-time single season ranks.

:biggums:
He would join very rare territory. Of guys to finish top 25 in all 4 categories

Jordan several times
LeBron several times
Curry in 2016
Robinson in 1994

[AlternativeAcc.]

Curry didn't change the game... that's a complete myth...

The NBA was gonna evolve to 3pt heavy shooting regardless of if he existed or not. That was just a natural evolution of the game.

Otoh, LeBron changed the way great players are judged . There had never been someone like LeBron who dominated every facet of the game while being the leagues smartest player

His domination gave birth to players like Jokic, Luka, Embiid, Giannis and all the greatest players today. Their development was predicated on LeBrons game...

He completely changed the NBA

[FultzNationRISE]

As I understand it the big flaw with PER is that it overvalues inefficient scoring. You can raise your per just by chucking up shots even if you shoot a bad percentage.

Neither guy does that though. I do wish Giannis would stop shooting 3s ffs.


Funny story, the original statistical model John Hollinger devised for measuring player efficiency ended up ranking David Robinson as the most effective player ever. Hollinger decided nobody would take that seriously, so he tweaked the formula to something where MJ came out on top.

(True story.)

[Im Still Ballin]

Funny story, the original statistical model John Hollinger devised for measuring player efficiency ended up ranking David Robinson as the most effective player ever. Hollinger decided nobody would take that seriously, so he tweaked the formula to something where MJ came out on top.

(True story.)

The guys at Basketball Reference also tweaked its BPM stats because Westbrook broke it.



Why was BPM changed?

The simplest answer: Russell Westbrook. Westbrook's 2016-17 MVP season graded out at 15.6 in the original BPM. Essentially, his 10.7 RPG and 10.4 APG broke the interaction terms between those statistics. So Westbrook's great season ended up being 20% better than any other season in the database, which just didn't pass the smell test. Along similar lines, assists without rebounds and rebounds without assists were penalized in the original BPM (hurting the likes of John Stockton, Steve Nash, Hassan Whiteside and Patrick Ewing).

[tontoz]

Funny story, the original statistical model John Hollinger devised for measuring player efficiency ended up ranking David Robinson as the most effective player ever. Hollinger decided nobody would take that seriously, so he tweaked the formula to something where MJ came out on top.

(True story.)


Never heard that but lol.

I have seen a couple of math experts who studied the formula say it overvalues inefficient scoring.

[Im Still Ballin]

Never heard that but lol.

I have seen a couple of math experts who studied the formula say it overvalues inefficient scoring.

I think it really likes rebounding, too.

[FultzNationRISE]

The guys at Basketball Reference also tweaked its BPM stats because Westbrook broke it.

Just goes to show any metric is ultimately subjective based on how its creator chooses to weigh various factors.

It's all about the eye test.

(Or in Lebron's case the package test)

[John_Connor]

I dont go by PER because stats can be manufactured like lebron or Westbrook did most of their careers. some guys pad their numbers in garbage time and chase rebounds or force assists. if your numbers don't hurt your team and come in the flow of the game then I'll give you credit. like what jokic is doing. none of it hurts his team. but lebrons PER is totally worthless to me this season. he's turned into a negative impact player. his leadership is nonexistent. his defense is trash and he's padding half his stats in 4th quarters during blowout losses

[Im Still Ballin]

EPM was the top-rated advanced statistic by NBA executives I think it was.

https://dunksandthrees.com/epm

[1987_Lakers]

The only advanced stuff I really use on a player is TS% and TRB% when comparing rebounders from different eras.

I'm very unfamiliar with most of the other stuff. :lol

[Full Court]

Just goes to show any metric is ultimately subjective based on how its creator chooses to weigh various factors.

It's all about the eye test.



I completely agree with you on this. Stats, even the so-called "advanced stats," don't tell the whole story.

People that live and die by the stats are missing too many intangible pieces of context.

[MadDog]

PER is alright if you're using it to measure [overall] efficiency. Its not an impact stat. Doesn't tell you who the better player is either.


Just goes to show any metric is ultimately subjective based on how its creator chooses to weigh various factors.

It's all about the eye test.

(Or in Lebron's case the package test)

I like RPM cuz its not just a box-score measure. Things not found on a stat sheet are taken into account, which is cool. Some "fans" omit the eye test though, and strictly go off numbers. That's extreme. Obviously none of us have time to catch ALL games, but to admit you don't watch basketball? Lol why even follow the sport.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Tontoz has left the chat.

[3ba11]

Just a ridiculously stacked era.

Today to be the best you have to dominate in multiple facets. Jokic isn't just a good passer, he's arguably the best. While being by far the best post scorer in the NBA and an elite rebounder. Exceptionally high bball IQ as well.

LeBron changed the NBA

Giannis, Jokic, and luka are all LeBron disciples.

Lebron pioneered this super player era and it adds to his legacy.


Bird was elite scorer, passer and rebounder

Lebron isn't an elite scorer because elite scorers have elite jumpshooting skill, as required to



1) defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load/not need a lot of help)

2) have good teammate fits (fit with other ball-handlers) and allow young players to develop, aka win organically (not need to team-hop for ready-made stars)

3) have good ball movement/brand of ball that that yields high team ceiling/Finals record with the least help (no super-team needed)

[AlternativeAcc.]

Bird was elite scorer, passer and rebounder

Lebron isn't an elite scorer because elite scorers have elite jumpshooting skill, as required to

1) defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load/not need a lot of help)

2) have good teammate fits (fit with other ball-handlers)

3) have good ball movement/brand of ball that that yields high team ceiling/Finals record with the least help (no super-team needed)

Bird didn't pioneer a litney of other elite all around players, the game was still a limited skillset/big mans game in the 80s and 90s

If lebron isn't elite scorer than neither is giannis, embiid, or jokic (false)

[1987_Lakers]

Bird was elite scorer, passer and rebounder

Lebron isn't an elite scorer because elite scorers have elite jumpshooting skill, as required to

The funny thing is, it's pretty obvious LeBron is a better scorer than Bird. In Bird's first 5 seasons in the NBA he was averaging under 25 points a game, each season.

Fun fact, the most Bird ever averaged in the playoffs is 27.5 ppg, LeBron for his career has AVERAGED 28.7 PPG in the postseason. :lol

And you can't really use to pace argument either cause Bird played in an offensive friendly league.

[SouBeachTalents]

The funny thing is, it's pretty obvious LeBron is a better scorer than Bird. In Bird's first 5 seasons in the NBA he was averaging under 25 points a game, each season.

Fun fact, the most Bird ever averaged in the playoffs is 27.5 ppg, LeBron for his career has AVERAGED 28.7 PPG in the postseason. :lol

And you can't really use to pace argument either cause Bird played in an offensive friendly league.
LeBron got crucified for scoring less than 20 ppg one series in his entire career, while Bird has SEVERAL series where he scored under 20 ppg, or just barely did, in a significantly smaller sample size to boot.

[GimmeThat]

the league average for PER is always 15, which only means there are a lot of sh*tty players this season

[tontoz]

Tontoz has left the chat.



What are you talking about lol? I like both guys. I would be fine if either one got MVP.

[Johnny32]

Just a ridiculously stacked era.

Today to be the best you have to dominate in multiple facets. Jokic isn't just a good passer, he's arguably the best. While being by far the best post scorer in the NBA and an elite rebounder. Exceptionally high bball IQ as well.

LeBron changed the NBA

Giannis, Jokic, and luka are all LeBron disciples.

Lebron pioneered this super player era and it adds to his legacy.

Not only is the top level talent at an all time high...the role players down to the very end of the bench are drastically better than any other era.

[3ba11]

Curry didn't change the game... that's a complete myth...

The NBA was gonna evolve to 3pt heavy shooting regardless of if he existed or not. That was just a natural evolution of the game.

Otoh, LeBron changed the way great players are judged . There had never been someone like LeBron who dominated every facet of the game while being the leagues smartest player

His domination gave birth to players like Jokic, Luka, Embiid, Giannis and all the greatest players today. Their development was predicated on LeBrons game...

He completely changed the NBA



Time of Possession (hold-time)


Lebron.......... 6.3 minutes

Jokic............ 4.2 minutes

Giannis........ 4.5 minutes

Durant......... 4.0 minutes


No one is dumb enough to have a point guard hold-time from the forward position

Only Lebron is dumb enough and unskilled enough to do play that way, so he needs the most help

[Johnny32]

Time of Possession (hold-time)


Lebron.......... 6.3 minutes

Jokic............ 4.2 minutes

Giannis........ 4.5 minutes

Durant......... 4.0 minutes


No one is dumb enough to have a point guard hold-time from the forward position

Only Lebron is dumb enough and unskilled enough to do play that way, so he needs the most help

It's funny you think holding the ball and waiting to see what the opposing defense is going to do then reacting to that and getting the best possible shot for the team is a bad thing. Then again you're a kobe loving tard and he didn't have the basketball iq to play this style.

[GimmeThat]

Time of Possession (hold-time)


Lebron.......... 6.3 minutes

Jokic............ 4.2 minutes

Giannis........ 4.5 minutes

Durant......... 4.0 minutes


No one is dumb enough to have a point guard hold-time from the forward position

Only Lebron is dumb enough and unskilled enough to do play that way, so he needs the most help

we live in a world where dumb people gets paid too much it seems. imagine if the people stanning those dumb people just cut off their support. the world would be a much better place.

[1987_Lakers]

Currently at...

1. Jokic: 32.9 PER
2. '62 Wilt: 32.1 PER
3. Giannis: 31.9 PER


With one game left for Jokic it's pretty much guaranteed he will finish with highest PER ever.

[tpols]

It's funny you think holding the ball and waiting to see what the opposing defense is going to do then reacting to that and getting the best possible shot for the team is a bad thing. Then again you're a kobe loving tard and he didn't have the basketball iq to play this style.

The best teams of all time all had great ball movement. Its essential to have everybody involved to build dynasty chemistry and wear the defense out more / make them work harder. Only LeBron fans would say ball movement doesnt matter.

[insight]

Curry didn't change the game... that's a complete myth...

The NBA was gonna evolve to 3pt heavy shooting regardless of if he existed or not. That was just a natural evolution of the game.

Otoh, LeBron changed the way great players are judged . There had never been someone like LeBron who dominated every facet of the game while being the leagues smartest player

His domination gave birth to players like Jokic, Luka, Embiid, Giannis and all the greatest players today. Their development was predicated on LeBrons game...

He completely changed the NBA

You can draw similarities between Luka and Lebron but Luka's lacks of athleticism and score first mentality are not Lebron traits.
Joker, Giannis Embiid have nothing in common with Lebron. Lebron's game is not original, none of his moves are original, he did not create some new style of play that is duplicatable because just like Shaq his greatest asset was his size and physical dominance. That's not a knock on Lebron's greatness but you are giving him credit for something he did not create.
The rule changes, and the worldwide acceptance of the game are the main reasons why Joker and others have reached stardom.

[Micku]

It's pretty amazing that we are having players just breaking records lately. It shows not only the impact of how sophisticated the offense has been, but also the quality lvl of stars in today's game. Some ppl say it's inflation of the stats, that might be right. But it's a combination of things. I feel like it hasn't been this stacked since the 80s, at least without looking at the list.

[ArbitraryWater]

Currently at...

1. Jokic: 32.9 PER
2. '62 Wilt: 32.1 PER
3. Giannis: 31.9 PER


With one game left for Jokic it's pretty much guaranteed he will finish with highest PER ever.


hopefully he can crack 33.0

[insight]

It's pretty amazing that we are having players just breaking records lately. It shows not only the impact of how sophisticated the offense has been, but also the quality lvl of stars in today's game. Some ppl say it's inflation of the stats, that might be right. But it's a combination of things. I feel like it hasn't been this stacked since the 80s, at least without looking at the list.

The rules were changed to increase scoring and offense and it worked. The downside is stats are inflated and on any given night an average players can score 30 or 40 points.

[Micku]

The rules were changed to increase scoring and offense and it worked. The downside is stats are inflated and on any given night an average players can score 30 or 40 points.

Oh for sure it's a definitely increase in offense due to the rules and coaching philosophy. The league isn't a slow and defensive grind anymore like it was in the late 90s and the early 00s.

Small ball is here, and thus easier points for basically all. With that said, it's amazing to see guys like Jokic, Embiid, and Giannis take advantage of that. There are other skills like the passing, footwork game or gravity that they display sometimes that's been a pleasure to watch. I would think those skills translate well to other eras in the game. They might not be as efficient, but the talent is there. And the average players sometimes go off...perhaps more often than the other eras.

[97 bulls]

The rules were changed to increase scoring and offense and it worked. The downside is stats are inflated and on any given night an average players can score 30 or 40 points.

Funny how this fact is rarely ever taken into consideration. That and wins. It's as if the game is no longer played to win. Just to put up numbers.

[BigShotBob]

No one cares. Neither of them would be breaking any PER records in 1992.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Just a ridiculously stacked era.

Today to be the best you have to dominate in multiple facets. Jokic isn't just a good passer, he's arguably the best. While being by far the best post scorer in the NBA and an elite rebounder. Exceptionally high bball IQ as well.

LeBron changed the NBA

Giannis, Jokic, and luka are all LeBron disciples.

Lebron pioneered this super player era and it adds to his legacy.
What people don't understand is that Jokic dominating is ADDING to LeBrons legacy.

This was always a win-win