Is this season the biggest underachevement of the expectation of Lebron's career?

[3ba11]

Underachieving the on-paper, talent expectation = weak chemistry and brand of ball

Accordingly, is this season the weakest brand of ball of Lebron's caree (expending the teams offense to chase Kareem)??

2013 - only the Ray Allen miracle stopped Lebron's preseason favorite from falling to Finals underdog or loser for 6 straight years (11-16')

[1987_Lakers]

OP caught lying in another thread.


Tons of guys won scoring title but only MJ won scoring title and championship

[3ba11]

OP caught lying in another thread.


There's exceptions to every rule - we know that Kareem and Shaq did it once each in their peak seasons of 71' and 00', so their peak burden was Jordan's standard burden to win a ring

[1987_Lakers]

So you admit you lied.

[bison]

Lebron is superb at his age but it doesn’t translate to healthy basketball

[bison]

Lebron is good but has been let down by the front office and their coach.

[theman93]

Hard for me to choose tbh.

His all-time Finals blowout loss vs San Antonio in 2014 is atrocious, but his 2011 Finals meltdown with Wade giving him 27/7/5/2/2 on 55% is hilariously bad.

Being reduced to a lottery contender/first round loser in LA without AD to carry him is an honorable mention.

[3ba11]

Lebron is good but has been let down by the front office and their coach.


It isn't the front office

Bad fits = skill deficit

The skill deficit is Lebron's non-elite jumpshooting skill and inability to run off screens that translates to a bad fit with Westbrook.

There's an entire branch of superior basketball that Lebron cannot play - ball movement, off-screen, high team assist explosive offenses that pop off

Every team has a ball-dominator, but Lebron's ball-dominance is abnormal for a frontcourt player, so Lebron's teams are the most ball-dominant in the league.. This matters because ball-dominance lets a defense rest, so they have more capacity to go off offensively - the story is always how opponents "get hot" on Lebron's teams - see the 09' ECF, 11' FInals, 14' Finals, 17' Finals, 18' Finals, or 21' 1st Round.. Ultimately, Lebron's teams are have the highest defensive requirements because they're always facing fresh offenses that aren't worn down by a good brand of ball.

A tenet of all competition is that the best defense is a good offense - unfortunately, Lebron-ball (aka "big man ball-dominance") applies less pressure and wears down opponents less than the ball movement it faces - it loses the attrition battle inherent in any competition.. The inferior brand of ball yields perennial Finals underdogs regardless of cast and barely meets the underdog expectation (4/10 including 2 teammate bailouts).. It also underachieves the expectation - Lebron's teams were the preseason favorite from 2011-2016 but fell to Finals underdog or loser every year (6 straight years), aside from the Ray Allen miracle.. The Ray Allen miracle is the only thing that stopped Lebron's preseason favorite from falling to Finals underdog or loser for 6 straight years.

[SouBeachTalents]

2016 was easily the biggest underachievement of his career.

[3ba11]

2016 was easily the biggest underachievement of his career.


In the history of basketball, which players had a sidekick outplay the league MVP or FMVP? (aka the most help possible)

Only Lebron

Only Lebron had Kyrie outplay Curry, or Bosh outplay 11' Rose, or Wade outplay Dirk, or AD dominate Joker.

Would you give Jordan props for his 98' ring if Pippen dominated MVP Barkley or Malone?.. Would that be "goat" worthy accomplishment lol

[SouBeachTalents]

In the history of basketball, which players had a sidekick outplay the league MVP or FMVP? (aka the most help possible)

Only Lebron

Only Lebron had Kyrie outplay Curry, or Bosh outplay 11' Rose, or Wade outplay Dirk, or AD dominate Joker.

Would you give Jordan props for his 98' ring if Pippen dominated MVP Barkley or Malone?.. Would that be "goat" worthy accomplishment lol
I agree, he didn't even play that well, and went up against a relatively weak opponent.

[3ba11]

I agree, he didn't even play that well, and went up against a relatively weak opponent.


He had the preseason favorite (talent favorite), so only an inferior brand of ball caused the fall to underdog

As the preseason favorite, he was supposed to flirt with 70 wins like Kawhi and Curry did, but a shit brand caused a weak 57-win underdog..

Heck, it's a joke that he needed 7 games when he had unprecedented help (sidekick killing the MVP) - only an inferior brand of ball can cause favored talent to underachieve like that.

Ultimately, the "comp" argument doesn't work when you were the preseason favorite, because would weaponize having weaker teams than expected

[SouBeachTalents]

He had the preseason favorite (talent favorite), so only an inferior brand of ball caused the fall to underdog

As the preseason favorite, he was supposed to flirt with 70 wins like Kawhi and Curry did, but a shit brand caused a weak 57-win underdog..

Heck, it's a joke that he needed 7 games when he had unprecedented help (sidekick killing the MVP) - only an inferior brand of ball can cause favored talent to underachieve like that.

Ultimately, the "comp" argument doesn't work when you were the preseason favorite, because would weaponize having weaker teams than expected
I agree, needing 7 games to beat those Warriors, a team that had accomplished virtually nothing to that point? It's a pretty big knock on LeBron's legacy and exposes his inferior brand of ball.

[GOATKawhi_2]

Yes he should be ashamed of himself. Even Reggie Jackson led his team to a better record. Its not like the west is tough either, the 8th seed is 38-40.

Lebron is just a terrible western conference player

[3ba11]

I agree, needing 7 games to beat those Warriors, a team that had accomplished virtually nothing to that point? It's a pretty big knock on LeBron's legacy and exposes his inferior brand of ball.


Baron Davis didn't need a super-team to beat Dirk's 67-win juggernaut (more wins than the KD Warriors) - he had an 8 seed!!!.. that's more impressive than Lebron's super-team fulfilling the preseason expectation by less margin than expected or by less than the on-paper talent performance would indicate (sidekick killing the MVP)

[SouBeachTalents]

Baron Davis didn't need a super-team to beat Dirk's 67-win juggernaut (more wins than the KD Warriors) - he had an 8 seed!!!.. that's more impressive than Lebron's super-team fulfilling the preseason expectation by less margin than expected or the on-paper talent performance would indicate
Hey, I never claimed those Warriors were comparable to Dirk's '07 team, they had clearly inferior talent. Not a fair comparison imo.

[3ba11]

Hey, I never claimed those Warriors were comparable to Dirk's '07 team, they had clearly inferior talent. Not a fair comparison imo.


The point is that regular season record means little when differentiating playoff "comp"

Heck, Dwight beat a 66-win team and MJ never did that either.. So I guess Dwight and Baron Davis are goat too

Accordingly, regular season record has always been a paper tiger and a poor gauge of true ability.. Warriors weren't legit until KD arrived - everyone knows that

[Axe]

The point is that regular season record means little when differentiating playoff "comp"

Heck, Dwight beat a 66-win team and MJ never did that either.. So I guess Dwight and Baron Davis are goat too

Accordingly, regular season record has always been a paper tiger and a poor gauge of true ability.. Warriors weren't legit until KD arrived - everyone knows that
Well, pippen's 2000 blazers almost toppled kobe's 67-win lakers during that same year's wcf after trailing 3-1. The latter is just lucky he had shaq tho.

[Full Court]

He's had a lot of underachievements, but there's no doubt that this season is the worst one of his entire career. Pre-season favorites, and he stacked a super team. Now they're 15 games below .500 and might not even make the play in. :roll:

[3ba11]

Well, pippen's 2000 blazers almost toppled kobe's 67-win lakers during that same year's wcf after trailing 3-1. The latter is just lucky he had shaq tho.


8th option Pippen?

He was Andre Roberson outside the triangle and dynasty chemistry development (system player)

aka the only guy in history that never had a play called for him or commanded a double - only MJ lacked a go-to teammate, so only MJ had to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load for entire career (https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=4UF6Xx3F2Lo&t=01m54s)).

[Axe]

8th option Pippen?

He was Andre Roberson outside the triangle and dynasty chemistry development

aka the only guy in history that never had a play called for him or commanded a double - only MJ lacked a go-to teammate, so only MJ had to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load for entire career (https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=4UF6Xx3F2Lo&t=01m54s)).
Yet that '8th option' pippen averaged more ppg in the 1991 finals than kobe did in the 2000 finals. :rolleyes:

[3ba11]

Yet that '8th option' pippen averaged more ppg in the 1991 finals than kobe did in the 2000 finals. :rolleyes:


That was Pippen's peak as a sidekick (21 ppg), which is the lowest peak of any notable sidekick and doesn't compare to Kobe's peak as a sidekick, which was goat-caliber play (aka 01' WCF, among many other series or runs)

Now if you want to compare to Kobe's low to Pippen's, they're similar (00' Finals vs 96' Finals), except Kobe took over the critical OT to prevent a Game 7 and led the playoffs in clutch points (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs), while Pippen was never a go-to player - MJ was looking for Paxson down the stretch over a system and transition player like Pippen.. Again., Pippen's peak was 21 ppg and lower gamescore than 95' Horry's Finals - aka system player and otherwise Andre Roberson

[Axe]

That was Pippen's peak as a sidekick (21 ppg), which is the lowest peak of any notable sidekick and doesn't compare to Kobe's peak as a sidekick, which was goat-caliber play (aka 01' WCF, among many other series or runs)

Now if you want to compare to Kobe's low to Pippen's, they're similar (00' Finals vs 96' Finals), except Kobe took over the critical OT to prevent a Game 7 and led the playoffs in clutch points (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs), while Pippen was never a go-to player - MJ was looking for Paxson down the stretch over a system and transition player like Pippen.. Again., Pippen's peak was 21 ppg and lower gamescore than 95' Horry's Finals - aka system player and otherwise Andre Roberson
Kobe was a sidekick during the 2000 finals. Stop deflecting and embarrassing yourself.

[3ba11]

Kobe was a sidekick during the 2000 finals. Stop deflecting and embarrassing yourself.


That was Kobe's low as a sidekick, which is the same statistically as Pippen's low (96' Finals)

except Kobe also took over the critical OT to prevent a Game 7 and led the playoffs in clutch points (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs), while Pippen was never a go-to player - MJ was looking for Paxson down the stretch over a system and transition player like Pippen..

Again., Pippen's peak was 21 ppg and lower gamescore than 95' Horry's Finals - aka system player and otherwise Andre Roberson.. Pippen has the lowest peak of any notable sidekick and doesn't compare to Kobe's peak as a sidekick, which was goat-caliber play (aka 01' WCF, among many other series or runs)

Btw, Kobe was also a near-equal-scoring partner to Shaq in the critical WCF in 2000, where Kobe averaged 21 and Shaq 26 - unlike Pippen, Kobe was always attracting defensive attention so Shaq didn't have to face max defensive attention in the big series (didn't have to carry scoring load against the best opponent)

[SouBeachTalents]

3ball a few hours ago


Those are exceptions that prove the rule - you think it's coincidence that peak Shaq and Kareem are the only guys that won with the Jordan standard?

It isn't coincidence that Shaq and Kareem's peak burden was the goat's standard burden to win a ring - that makes sense - we're talking about the goat
Now you're arguing Shaq didn't face max defensive attention :lol

[beasted]

Coin flip this season and 2011 Finals choke. These are shit stains in his legacy.

[3ba11]

3ball a few hours ago


Now you're arguing Shaq didn't face max defensive attention :lol


He never did against good teams - against the 00' Blazers, Kobe averaged 21 and Shaq 26, while Kobe led the entire NBA in clutch points for those playoffs (4.8 per game) - Kobe was 1st option when it mattered

Otherwise, who cares what happened against the 1-star bum team that mostly represented the East at that time - the Kidd Nets were garbage

[kawhileonard2]

2016 was easily the biggest underachievement of his career.

They were favorites

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2016_preseason_odds.html

[SouBeachTalents]

They were favorites

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2016_preseason_odds.html
So were the 2020 Clippers

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2020_preseason_odds.html

[Axe]

That was Kobe's low as a sidekick, which is the same statistically as Pippen's low (96' Finals)

except Kobe also took over the critical OT to prevent a Game 7 and led the playoffs in clutch points (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Playoffs), while Pippen was never a go-to player - MJ was looking for Paxson down the stretch over a system and transition player like Pippen..

Again., Pippen's peak was 21 ppg and lower gamescore than 95' Horry's Finals - aka system player and otherwise Andre Roberson.. Pippen has the lowest peak of any notable sidekick and doesn't compare to Kobe's peak as a sidekick, which was goat-caliber play (aka 01' WCF, among many other series or runs)

Btw, Kobe was also a near-equal-scoring partner to Shaq in the critical WCF in 2000, where Kobe averaged 21 and Shaq 26 - unlike Pippen, Kobe was always attracting defensive attention so Shaq didn't have to face max defensive attention in the big series (didn't have to carry scoring load against the best opponent)
In the two previous posts earlier i was talking about their ppg averages in their respective finals debuts but as usual you just had to cherry pick from the other finals they played in because it suits your agenda better.

[ShawkFactory]

He never did against good teams - against the 00' Blazers, Kobe averaged 21 and Shaq 26, while Kobe led the entire NBA in clutch points for those playoffs (4.8 per game) - Kobe was 1st option when it mattered

Otherwise, who cares what happened against the 1-star bum team that mostly represented the East at that time - the Kidd Nets were garbage

Yes he did.

[Ne 1]

Only you consider 2012, ‘13 and ‘16 to be failures when he won Finals MVP and the chip. Repeated those years. 2015? injuries happened. 2017 Golden State had to get KD. Cause they knew they was done for once Bron and his crew beat them in ‘16. You really gonna put all his pre prime years on there? Really? Smh! Petty af!

[3ba11]

Looks like this season takes the cake

So out of the bosum of a historically-weak East littered with 0-star teams, he's basically like Raptors' DeRozan of the West..... except much worse