How would your All-second option team look like?

[1987_Lakers]

Consider all the 2nd options throughout history, try to form the best possible team with just second options...

C - '71 Wilt | '85 Kareem
F - '86 McHale | '20 AD
F - '96 Pippen | '83 Dr. J | '14 Kawhi
G - '01 Kobe | '11 Wade | '05 Ginobili
G - '17 Curry | '18 CP3

[3ba11]

There's only two 2nd options on your list

Manu and Pippen

Everyone else is an elite scorer (all-time scorer infact)

Everyone was a go-to player.. Even Manu was a go-to player.. Only Pippen wasn't

[1987_Lakers]

I guess I could sub Ginobili for early 60's Jerry West for extra man power, but I like the versatility Ginobili brings.

[Kblaze8855]

I often feel like we need new names for some of these things. Being a second leading scorer doesn’t necessarily make you second option in your teams sets. There are guys who lead a team in scoring and don’t have plays or sets for them at all. Hell some lead their teams in scoring while also being the best defender and still aren’t the best player(Marion for example). Manu was third on the spurs in scoring in 05. Sure he was second in the playoffs and many like to do that “But in the playoffs” thing…but Wade outscored Lebron in the 11 playoffs. So what then?

What was Ben Wallace to the pistons? A 7th option?

Not saying I don’t know what you mean…just that I’d like it if we had better terms for these things.

[highwhey]

giannis. his first option was the refs.

[SouBeachTalents]

A lot of those guys were 1B's. Of indisputable non 1st options/best players

Stockton
Klay
Pippen
Dray
Pau

[tpols]

'80 Magic
'05 Manu
'20 LeBron
'08 KG
'85 Kareem

For me.

[1987_Lakers]

Not saying I don’t know what you mean…just that I’d like it if we had better terms for these things.

Well yea, by second option I mean 2nd best player. Just hard to come up with a term for it. :lol

[1987_Lakers]

'80 Magic
'05 Manu
'20 LeBron
'08 KG
'85 Kareem

For me.

I'm not even gonna bother arguing you about LeBron, but KG was in fact the best player on that Celtics team and it's not even close.

[3ba11]

A lot of those guys were 1B's. Of indisputable non 1st options/best players

Stockton
Klay
Pippen
Dray
Pau


Okay

And for the most part, all those guys you listed were good right away except Pippen - Pippen was the only "system" player where he was propped up by a system and dynasty chemistry.. Otherwise, he was 14 ppg dunker that couldn't score (89' and 99') outside the triangle

Imagine winning 6 with a sidekick that never reached Horry-level in the Finals (95' Finals gamescore)

[SouBeachTalents]

Okay

And for the most part, all those guys you listed were good right away except Pippen - Pippen was the only "system" player where he was propped up by a system and dynasty chemistry.
Dray averaged less than 3 ppg his rookie year. 6 ppg his 2nd, he was also a 2nd round draft pick. Pippen was EASILY better than him out of the gate :lol

[tpols]

I'm not even gonna bother arguing you about LeBron, but KG was in fact the best player on that Celtics team and it's not even close.

When people refer to "option" they're talking about the offensive pecking order. KG was the best player but Paul Pierce was the 1st option. Anybody that watched back then knows this.

[3ba11]

Dray averaged less than 3 ppg his rookie season. 6 ppg his 2nd year. He was a 2nd round draft pick. Pippen was EASILY better than him out of the gate :lol


I said "for the most part"

And I would liken Dray to Pippen - a non-go-to player - so that's a nice find/analysis by you

Btw, out of the non-elite scorers and non-1st options that you listed, who had the worst efficiency ??? (worst-ever)

[Kblaze8855]

Dray averaged less than 3 ppg his rookie year. 6 ppg his 2nd, he was also a 2nd round draft pick. Pippen was EASILY better than him out of the gate :lol

Stockton didn’t start full time till his 3rd or 4th season. He was behind Ricky Green.

[1987_Lakers]

When people refer to "option" they're talking about the offensive pecking order. KG was the best player but Paul Pierce was the 1st option. Anybody that watched back then knows this.

By this logic why do you have '85 Kareem listed then? He was obviously the Lakers #1 scoring option that year.

[SouBeachTalents]

By this logic why do you have '85 Kareem listed then? He was obviously the Lakers #1 scoring option that year.
I'd like to see how '85 Magic gets first option status, but '20 LeBron doesn't :lol

[Im so nba'd out]

Kobe wasnt a 2nd option to shaq in those championship years...Thats a myth. Kobe carried them through the brutal West damn near every year in the playoffs and shaq would go all out for Finals mvp with kobe worn down. (the same thing you lebron hating losers claim LeBron did to AD in the bubble...)

They were a 1A/1B combo....more like a batman and superman duo.....never batman and robin like a jordan pippen. Same thing with Curry, he was never a robin to no damn KD....fk....outta......here

[Kblaze8855]

When people refer to "option" they're talking about the offensive pecking order. KG was the best player but Paul Pierce was the 1st option. Anybody that watched back then knows this.

Thats one of those things that “feeeeeels” a lot more true than it is. At least in the playoffs where people tend to try to take these things. KG took 3 more shots a game than Pierce and led them in 4th quarter scoring and was gone to for big baskets one on one several times. We just kinda ignore the facts on that. He scored more, took more shots, and was the best total player.

[3ba11]

Are we really comparing goat scorers and elite 1st options like Wilt, Kareem, Dr. J, Kawhi, Kobe, Wade, Curry to system guys like Dray, Pippen and Manu?

[tpols]

By this logic why do you have '85 Kareem listed then? He was obviously the Lakers #1 scoring option that year.

Option doesn't have to refer to only scoring, but who is the best offensive player on the team. By '85 Magic was that for LA.

[1987_Lakers]

Option doesn't have to refer to only scoring, but who is the best offensive player on the team. By '85 Magic was that for LA.

Then why is '20 LeBron a second option then? He was obviously a better offensive player than AD if we include playmaking.

[SouBeachTalents]

Option doesn't have to refer to only scoring, but who is the best offensive player on the team. By '85 Magic was that for LA.
So LeBron wasn't the best offensive player on the '20 Lakers?

[tpols]

I'd like to see how '85 Magic gets first option status, but '20 LeBron doesn't :lol

'20 LeBron scored less points, on worse efficiency with worse clutch performance. AD hit the game winner over Jokic in the WCF. And in general we see the Lakers are dogshit without him. They have a losing record without Anthony Davis to carry them. Magic still was leading Finals teams when Kareem was gone. Magic played a top tier brand though and made everybody better though. If you gave him all that talent Ingram, Ball, even Kuzma he'd never miss playoffs with that.

[3ba11]

So LeBron wasn't the best offensive player on the '20 Lakers?


The Lakers' offensive strategy and brand of ball required AD to get a certain proportion of the scoring to win the West, and this proportion was the biggest on the team, aka AD-ball

Against the weak East in the Finals, Lebronto-ball was sufficient brand and offensive strategy, although still needed a near-equal scoring partner and elite-producing sidekick

[John_Connor]

the funny thing is kobe was actually the Lakers leader in shot attempts per game in 2001 and 2002

so it could be argued that kobe was the Lakers number 1 option but shaq was just more efficient and leading scorer for one series. we can't just go by one series vs the Nets and sixers each year to determine a 1st option role

[1987_Lakers]

the funny thing is kobe was actually the Lakers leader in shot attempts per game in 2001 and 2002



Well like you said in the other thread, just because you shoot more doesn't make you better.

[John_Connor]

Well like you said in the other thread, just because you shoot more doesn't make you better.

this isn't a thread about who was better at the time. it's a 2nd option thread


so I would put 2001 and 2002 shaq on and take kobe off. 1999 to 2000 kobe wasn't on that level as a 2nd option.

[3ba11]

Well like you said in the other thread, just because you shoot more doesn't make you better.


The only form of the triangle that was championship-caliber was when it had a "bailout" guy that could bailout possessions without ball-dominance, aka quick-iso goat.. It win 11 chips with the quick-iso goat or his clone (Kobe) and none with anyone else

The triangle was actually an unsuccessful offense but a quick-iso goat was the key that unlocks it's potential

[John_Connor]

2001, 2002, 2003, 2004 shaq might be the goat second option tbh

[1987_Lakers]

this isn't a thread about who was better at the time. it's a 2nd option thread


so I would put 2001 and 2002 shaq on and take kobe off. 1997 to 2000 kobe wasn't on that level as a 2nd option.

Nah, it's a thread of who was better at the time. I created it. Using the term "2nd option" is often used for someone who was the 2nd best player, there just isn't a great term for 2nd best.

[SouBeachTalents]

'20 LeBron scored less points, on worse efficiency with worse clutch performance. AD hit the game winner over Jokic in the WCF. And in general we see the Lakers are dogshit without him. They have a losing record without Anthony Davis to carry them. Magic still was leading Finals teams when Kareem was gone. Magic played a top tier brand though and made everybody better though. If you gave him all that talent Ingram, Ball, even Kuzma he'd never miss playoffs with that.
This is legitimately one of the worst arguments I've read in a long time.

LeBron scored 2 less points, 2, over the entire course of the playoffs, a 20 game sample size. Literally one basket goes the other way and he's the leading scorer. Magic scored 4.5 less ppg than Kareem, 83 points in total, for context over 40x the difference between LeBron & AD, on worse efficiency to boot, but this is somehow irrelevant to the discussion.

I'd like to add your also comparing a prime top 10 player of all time in Magic to 34-37 year old LeBron. AD was in the lottery the majority of his time in New Orleans, you think you swap him & LeBron he's making some substantial difference on the W-L record? I bet his record in games he plays and LeBron doesn't is extremely mediocre.

[tpols]

This is legitimately one of the worst arguments I've read in a long time.

LeBron scored 2 less points, 2, over the entire course of the playoffs, a 20 game sample size. Literally one basket goes the other way and he's the leading scorer. Magic scored 4.5 less ppg than Kareem, 83 points in total, for context over 40x the difference between LeBron & AD, on worse efficiency to boot, but this is somehow irrelevant to the discussion.

I'd like to add your also comparing a prime top 10 player of all time in Magic to 34-37 year old LeBron. AD was in the lottery the majority of his time in New Orleans, you think you swap him & LeBron he's making some substantial difference on the W-L record? I bet his record in games he plays and LeBron doesn't is extremely mediocre.

What you're not including is Magic dimed at a +50% rate over LeBron while both had point guard time of possession. The Lakers were a GOAT assist team and offense under Magic. And without prime Kareem this still persisted.

The modern Lakers without AD on the other hand are lottery. Everybody can see this now. Magic actually made everybody BETTER. He was a GOAT teammate enhancer. LeBron doesn't do that. (quite the opposite) Magic could've turned Ingram into his new James Worthy. LeBron couldn't even come close.

[iamgine]

There has been great 2nd best throughout history. Many of them should be the best player in their team, but for reasons they become 2nd best.

There's Pau Gasol, Jerry West, David Robinson, Penny, early Magic, Harden, Westbrook, Stockton, Mourning, Dallas Nash, Miami Shaq, Paul George etc

[John_Connor]

Nah, it's a thread of who was better at the time. I created it. Using the term "2nd option" is often used for someone who was the 2nd best player, there just isn't a great term for 2nd best.

no it clearly says in the title "how would your all second option team look"

[1987_Lakers]

What you're not including is Magic dimed at a +50% rate over LeBron while both had point guard time of possession. The Lakers were a GOAT assist team and offense under Magic. And without prime Kareem this still persisted.

And you aren't including that LeBron was also scoring at a higher rate than Magic as well. Like a 10 ppg diference. :lol