Could Lebron have played better on defense this season?

[PeroAntic]

If he could and chose not to, then he hurt his team on purpose just to focus on individual stats. If he couldn't, then hes confirmed as washed up. Which one is it bronies?

[Shaquille O'Neal]

I have the NBA league pass. Quite a few games the commenters would say "Lebron didn't even run past half court on D". So yeah, it was points over team success - LeGED learned it's near impossible to win the chip & the scoring title in the same season. The GOAT did that 6 times; last time @ age 35.

[PeroAntic]

I have the NBA league pass. Quite a few games the commenters would say "Lebron didn't even run past half court on D". So yeah, it was points over team success - LeGED learned it's near impossible to win the chip & the scoring title in the same season. The GOAT did that 6 times; last time @ age 35.

Craziest thing is MJ was in all defense first teams each year he won the scoring title.

[Hey Yo]

Craziest thing is MJ was in all defense first teams each year he won the scoring title.

Even crazier that he needed to load manage for almost 2yrs in order to get some of those all defensive teams. It was Harper that usually guarded the back courts biggest threat, while MJ would receive the accolades.

[theman93]

Even crazier that he needed to load manage for almost 2yrs in order to get some of those all defensive teams. It was Harper that usually guarded the back courts biggest threat, while MJ would receive the accolades.

Don't be an idiot.

[PeroAntic]

Even crazier that he needed to load manage for almost 2yrs in order to get some of those all defensive teams. It was Harper that usually guarded the back courts biggest threat, while MJ would receive the accolades.

:facepalm

[Hey Yo]

Don't be an idiot.

Truth hurt, chico?

You think MJ didn't benefit from his time off?

[warriorfan]

Even crazier that he needed to load manage for almost 2yrs in order to get some of those all defensive teams. It was Harper that usually guarded the back courts biggest threat, while MJ would receive the accolades.

Fuming

[1987_Lakers]

Even crazier that he needed to load manage for almost 2yrs in order to get some of those all defensive teams. It was Harper that usually guarded the back courts biggest threat, while MJ would receive the accolades.

Yea, 2nd 3peat MJ wasn't a great defender. He usually guarded the weaker offensive players. He got the Kobe treatment in making All-Defensive teams when he shouldn't have.

As for OP, lol at a Rose & Morant stan talking about defense.

[FKAri]

Has he been matched vs PFs most of the season?

[PeroAntic]

Yea, 2nd 3peat MJ wasn't a great defender. He usually guarded the weaker offensive players. He got the Kobe treatment in making All-Defensive teams when he shouldn't have.

As for OP, lol at a Rose & Morant stan talking about defense.

Rose and Morant are little guys. Them playing defense or not doesnt move the needle too much. Lebron on the other hand if he decides to play defense... But apparently he is not capable of it. Or he doesnt want to. Take your pick.

Also, take away Jordan's second threepeat all-defense and scoring titles, hes still far ahead of Lebron in having both scoring titles and all-defense teams. Because Lebron has zero:lol

[RogueBorg]

Yea, 2nd 3peat MJ wasn't a great defender. He usually guarded the weaker offensive players. He got the Kobe treatment in making All-Defensive teams when he shouldn't have.



Curious, so in '96 the 2nd Team All-Defense guards were Blaylock and Bobby Phils, in '97 it was Blaylock and Stockton, and in '98 it was Eddie Jones and Blaylock. Your claim that Jordan didn't deserve to make the All-Defensive Teams says that you feel one of the players on the second team deserved it over Jordan.....

1987_Lakers, you prove everyday you are a know-nothing idiot.

[Shogon]

I want you to know OP... you contribute heavily to the fact that this forum sucks.

[Hey Yo]

Rose and Morant are little guys. Them playing defense or not doesnt move the needle too much. Lebron on the other hand if he decides to play defense... But apparently he is not capable of it. Or he doesnt want to. Take your pick.

Also, take away Jordan's second threepeat all-defense and scoring titles, hes still far ahead of Lebron in having both scoring titles and all-defense teams. Because Lebron has zero:lol

So players 6'3 and under shouldn't be concerned about playing defense??

It's ok cause they're smaller???

WTF kind of logic is that?

[theman93]

Truth hurt, chico?

You think MJ didn't benefit from his time off?

"It was Harper that usually guarded the back courts biggest threat" :roll::roll::roll:

You're either trolling or clueless.

[1987_Lakers]

"It was Harper that usually guarded the back courts biggest threat" :roll::roll::roll:

You're either trolling or clueless.

Harper guarded Reggie Miller in '98. Harper guarded GP and Stockton in the Finals. You are clueless.

[1987_Lakers]

"It was Harper that usually guarded the back courts biggest threat" :roll::roll::roll:

You're either trolling or clueless.

That fact that you really think MJ usually guarded the back courts biggest threats during the 2nd 3 peat just shows you didn't watch any of those games. Lmfao.

[theman93]

Harper guarded Reggie Miller in '98. Harper guarded GP and Stockton in the Finals. You are clueless.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPlPNDXkIYk

:roll::roll::roll:

[1987_Lakers]

Curious, so in '96 the 2nd Team All-Defense guards were Blaylock and Bobby Phils, in '97 it was Blaylock and Stockton, and in '98 it was Eddie Jones and Blaylock. Your claim that Jordan didn't deserve to make the All-Defensive Teams says that you feel one of the players on the second team deserved it over Jordan.....

1987_Lakers, you prove everyday you are a know-nothing idiot.

If there was any season MJ probably deserved an All-Defensive team nod during the 2nd 3 peat it would be '96. 2nd All-Defensive team tops.

By '97 MJ was far from a great defender. He didn't have much responsibility on that end like in years past cause he was getting older. Phil Jackson did the same to Kobe as he aged, let him rest on defense so he could focus his energy on offense.

You guys are so clueless. Lmao. 3ball tried to pull the same shit how MJ guarded Reggie Miller in '98. Once I showed him Harper was the primary defender he back tracked.

[1987_Lakers]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPlPNDXkIYk

:roll::roll::roll:

MJ mostly guarded an aging Chris Mullin in that series. Are you serious? The tape backs it up.

Watch every game of that series. Harper was the primary defender on Miller.

[1987_Lakers]

https://apnews.com/article/999b3723f04a0075bb5737ccff32901c

I could post more articles and vids to prove my point but I'm currently at work.

[BigKobeFan]

We got these clowns commenting about mj giarding players in 1996.

These fools werent even born yet

[HoopsNY]

Yea, 2nd 3peat MJ wasn't a great defender. He usually guarded the weaker offensive players. He got the Kobe treatment in making All-Defensive teams when he shouldn't have.

As for OP, lol at a Rose & Morant stan talking about defense.

What is this based on? Jordan was an elite defensive player the second 3peat as well. In 1998, the team was 3rd in DRTG despite Pippen missing half the season. Chicago allowed just 89.1 PPG pre All-Star break (where Pippen missed 38 games), and 90.3 PPG post.

Anyone who watched him then saw how sound fundamentally he was despite his athletic decline.

[WhiteKyrie]

"It was Harper that usually guarded the back courts biggest threat" :roll::roll::roll:

You're either trolling or clueless.
Even if they said Pippen, they’d have no clue.

[HoopsNY]

https://apnews.com/article/999b3723f04a0075bb5737ccff32901c

I could post more articles and vids to prove my point but I'm currently at work.

Posting articles that show MJ wasn't the primary defender on guys doesn't mean that he wasn't a great defensive player. We saw what happened to Penny when Phil switched MJ onto him in 1996. We saw what happened to Reggie when MJ guarded him in 1998. And you forgot to mention that it was MJ who was tasked with guarding GP when Harper missed 2 games in the finals in 1996.

I get what you're saying. Chicago used a strategy to preserve MJ's energy for offense as the Bulls really needed it. You're not wrong there. But to act like MJ still wasn't a great defensive player is odd, especially when you consider how well the Bulls played defensively without Pippen including years like 1996 (Pippen was injured in the second half) and 1998.

[RogueBorg]

What is this based on? Jordan was an elite defensive player the second 3peat as well. In 1998, the team was 3rd in DRTG despite Pippen missing half the season. Chicago allowed just 89.1 PPG pre All-Star break (where Pippen missed 38 games), and 90.3 PPG post.

Anyone who watched him then saw how sound fundamentally he was despite his athletic decline.

1987_Lakers can only read box scores and watch videos posted by others. It's obvious he didn't watch any of these games.

He legit thinks that Blaylock, Eddie Jones, Stockton, and Bobby Phils should have been 1st-Team All-Defensive over Jordan.

[HoopsNY]

1987_Lakers can only read box scores and watch videos posted by others. It's obvious he didn't watch any of these games.

He legit thinks that Blaylock, Eddie Jones, Stockton, and Bobby Phils should have been 1st-Team All-Defensive over Jordan.

Yea that's erroneous. Those of us who were around and watched those seasons knew how much better he was defensively than those guys, with the exception of Mookie Blaylock. Blaylock was massively underrated defensively.

Jones was excellent defensively but I'd say his peak years defensively came in 1999 and 2000.

Stockton was always a great defender, but not to the level of MJ at any point of his career. And Bobby Phills was a fluke.

[1987_Lakers]

I get what you're saying. Chicago used a strategy to preserve MJ's energy for offense as the Bulls really needed it. You're not wrong there. But to act like MJ still wasn't a great defensive player is odd, especially when you consider how well the Bulls played defensively without Pippen including years like 1996 (Pippen was injured in the second half) and 1998.

This is exactly what I'm saying. I'm sure MJ was still capable of being a great defender if given the opportunity, the problem is Phil Jackson mostly hid him to conserve enegery. Which means his defensive impact overall was limited.

[PeroAntic]

So players 6'3 and under shouldn't be concerned about playing defense??

It's ok cause they're smaller???

WTF kind of logic is that?

No, I said it makes less of a difference whether Morant gives maximum defensive effort or Lebron. Should be easy to comprehend.

I love how stains shifted the discussion on 2nd threepeat Jordan's defense, even if he was still light years better than Lebron this season, and even if you take away that entire 2nd threepeat period, he still beats Lebron in scoring titles + all-defense teams BY FAR.

[HoopsNY]

This is exactly what I'm saying. I'm sure MJ was still capable of being a great defender if given the opportunity, the problem is Phil Jackson mostly hid him to conserve enegery. Which means his defensive impact overall was limited.

Yea but you said this here...


Yea, 2nd 3peat MJ wasn't a great defender. He usually guarded the weaker offensive players. He got the Kobe treatment in making All-Defensive teams when he shouldn't have.

As for OP, lol at a Rose & Morant stan talking about defense.

And you have the notion in reverse. MJ wasn't guarding those guys in the playoffs typically to conserve his offense which was much needed. It's not the same as saying his defensive impact was limited (meaning he was incapable).

All one had to do was look at him in big spots or when Pippen went down. It was obvious to anyone that he was a great defensive player.

But he certainly wasn't the same MJ as peak MJ, and you're not wrong in mentioning the strategy that Chicago used to conserve his energy for offense.

[1987_Lakers]

"Capable of being a great defender"

That's what I said.

I'm not gonna flat out say someone was a great defender just because they were "capable".

I'm sure if Kobe went all out on defense as he aged he would have been considered a great defender as well, but that wasn't the case. Both MJ and Kobe had spurts of locking up their man as they got older but it wasn't consistent.

[Johnny32]

Talking about defense always exposes the fat unathletic casuals the most lol they have no clue how much the defenders around you matter.

[Johnny32]

Curious, so in '96 the 2nd Team All-Defense guards were Blaylock and Bobby Phils, in '97 it was Blaylock and Stockton, and in '98 it was Eddie Jones and Blaylock. Your claim that Jordan didn't deserve to make the All-Defensive Teams says that you feel one of the players on the second team deserved it over Jordan.....

1987_Lakers, you prove everyday you are a know-nothing idiot.

Lol this tard has no clue what mookie blaylock was about.

[RRR3]

OP stans Carmelo and Jabari Parker the absolute nerve to make this thread.

[1987_Lakers]

Lol this tard has no clue what mookie blaylock was about.

Dude thought LeBron got swept in 2014. No doubt he googled all-defensive teams and found his name just an hour ago. :oldlol:

[HoopsNY]

"Capable of being a great defender"

That's what I said.

I'm not gonna flat out say someone was a great defender just because they were "capable".

I'm sure if Kobe went all out on defense as he aged he would have been considered a great defender as well, but that wasn't the case. Both MJ and Kobe had spurts of locking up their man as they got older but it wasn't consistent.

Now you're shifting. It's as if MJ guarded no one on the regular, especially in Pippen's absences. You can't talk about All-Defensive 1st Team selections then conveniently switch the basis of it to the playoffs. It's a regular season award.

[iamgine]

Yes but so does most other stars. Everyone has some energy they're preserving.

[RogueBorg]

Lol this tard has no clue what mookie blaylock was about.

Yes I do, I watched him play. He was not a better defender than Jordan.

[WhiteKyrie]

He could’ve played better defense in 2022, 2021, 2019, 2018, 2017, 2016, 2015, and 2014 …

[Real Men Wear Green]

There had never been a player or a person that could not possibly have tried harder. James has had seasons where he took defense off over the course of most games. As an older player he has to preserve himself and that's how he's done it in the past. I'm not sure about now because I stopped watching the Lakers when it became apparent that they were no good without AD but just speaking generally its completely unheard of for a perimeter player in his late 30s to lead the league in scoring while playing elite defense.

Now it could definitely be argued that LA would be better if James didn't care about offensive numbers and went out there with the mindset to be a defensive leader. Hold everyone accountable on that end and take on the toughest assignments. Maybe that inspires an effort that saves the season. But that's not what he's done for his whole career and being the guy that he is had great results most seasons

[SouBeachTalents]

There had never been a player or a person that could not possibly have tried harder. James has had seasons where he took defense off over the course of most games. As an older player he has to preserve himself and that's how he's done it in the past. I'm not sure about now because I stopped watching the Lakers when it became apparent that they were no good without AD but just speaking generally its completely unheard of for a perimeter player in his late 30s to lead the league in scoring while playing elite defense.

Now it could definitely be argued that LA would be better if James didn't care about offensive numbers and went out there with the mindset to be a defensive leader. Hold everyone accountable on that end and take on the toughest assignments. Maybe that inspires an effort that saves the season. But that's not what he's done for his whole career and being the guy that he is had great results most seasons
This was the first thought I had when I opened the thread. It's honestly unheard of for a perimeter player to still be top 10 caliber in his late 30's period, the only guys who were still elite at this age were bigs like Kareem, Duncan & Malone.

[1987_Lakers]

Now you're shifting. It's as if MJ guarded no one on the regular, especially in Pippen's absences. You can't talk about All-Defensive 1st Team selections then conveniently switch the basis of it to the playoffs. It's a regular season award.

Nah bro, what you are doing in putting words in my mouth that I never even said.

MJ was NOT a great defender during the 2nd 3 peat.

[RogueBorg]

Nah bro, what you are doing in putting words in my mouth that I never even said.

MJ was NOT a great defender during the 2nd 3 peat.

Jordan finished 6th in voting and had 7 1st place DPOY votes in '96
He finished 5th in voting and had 3 1st place votes in '97
He finished 4th in voting and had 6 1st place votes in '98

Not a great defender?

Lebron last received 1st place votes for DPOY back 2013-'14. He got 2.

In their 30's Jordan has 25 1st place votes for DPOY. Lebron has 2.

[Cyrus334]

Obviously.

Do people not watch the games? He's literally walking back on defense and not contesting anything when he's played at Center. Not unless he wants some block highlight for the week. He's in scoring mode right now just like in 2018. Which should tell you how much his impact on his team is dropping since he his scoring isn't even helping the Lakers win.

[theman93]

Jordan finished 6th in voting and had 7 1st place DPOY votes in '96
He finished 5th in voting and had 3 1st place votes in '97
He finished 4th in voting and had 6 1st place votes in '98

Not a great defender?

Lebron last received 1st place votes for DPOY back 2013-'14. He got 2.

In their 30's Jordan has 25 1st place votes for DPOY. Lebron has 2.

Ethered lmao

[HoopsNY]

Nah bro, what you are doing in putting words in my mouth that I never even said.

MJ was NOT a great defender during the 2nd 3 peat.

Good, now prove it. Because everything we have says he was. The eye test, the accolades, the DPOY finishes, the fundamentals despite a decline in athleticism, Chicago playing great defensively without Pippen, etc.


Jordan finished 6th in voting and had 7 1st place DPOY votes in '96
He finished 5th in voting and had 3 1st place votes in '97
He finished 4th in voting and had 6 1st place votes in '98

Not a great defender?

Lebron last received 1st place votes for DPOY back 2013-'14. He got 2.

In their 30's Jordan has 25 1st place votes for DPOY. Lebron has 2.

You just beat me to it. I have no idea how he arrives at this conclusion just because, in the playoffs, Chicago didn't have him guarding the best perimeter player. This in no way doesn't mean he wasn't a great defensive player. Furthermore, the question here is regular season play, not the playoffs, as he brought up MJ winning All-Defensive 1st Team selections out of voter sympathy like Kobe.

'96 and '98 stand out in particular. In '96, Pippen was a shell of himself in the second half of the season due to injury. In '98, he missed almost the first half of the season. Chicago maintained being an elite defensive team despite all of this.

[1987_Lakers]

Jordan finished 6th in voting and had 7 1st place DPOY votes in '96
He finished 5th in voting and had 3 1st place votes in '97
He finished 4th in voting and had 6 1st place votes in '98

Not a great defender?

Lebron last received 1st place votes for DPOY back 2013-'14. He got 2.

In their 30's Jordan has 25 1st place votes for DPOY. Lebron has 2.

And Kobe got like 2 first place votes in 2009 when it was obvious to everyone he was nowhere near a top 5 defender.

What you don't understand is people who vote usually are not watching every single game of every player. They are usually media people who just go off stats, reputation etc.

And when you consider defense is one side of the ball where stats don't tell the story, its wiser to ignore who the media votes for DPOY.

Are you telling me Michael Cooper was the best defender overall in 1987? Hell no. GP in '96 didn't have the same defensive impact as say '96 D-Rob, not even close.

Use your own brain for one minute instead of going by what writers think of players.

[HoopsNY]

And Kobe got like 2 first place votes in 2009 when it was obvious to everyone he was nowhere near a top 5 defender.

What you don't understand is people who vote usually are not watching every single game of every player. They are usually media people who just go off stats, reputation etc.

And when you consider defense is one side of the ball where stats don't tell the story, its wiser to ignore who the media votes for DPOY.

Are you telling me Michael Cooper was the best defender overall in 1987? Hell no. GP in '96 didn't have the same defensive impact as say '96 D-Rob, not even close.

Use your own brain for one minute instead of going by what writers think of players.

You're comparing apples to oranges. Saying Coop or GP were not the best defensive players (debatable) worthy of DPOY is A LOT different to saying, "MJ was NOT a great defensive player."

One is a debatable point as to who should have received the DPOY award. The other dismisses an elite defensive player's acumen all together. And just like those voters don't watch every single game, did you? Aren't you 30?

[tpols]

This is embarrassing. Yea MJ wasn't a great defender. :oldlol: :facepalm

LeBron legitimately doesn't play defense. He used 98% of his energy looking for ways to score. Jordan never played compromised shitty defense like this looking to pad his numbers.

[Bronbron23]

If he could and chose not to, then he hurt his team on purpose just to focus on individual stats. If he couldn't, then hes confirmed as washed up. Which one is it bronies?

Yes. His offense would of suffered but it would of helped them win games.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Obviously.

Do people not watch the games? He's literally walking back on defense and not contesting anything when he's played at Center. Not unless he wants some block highlight for the week. He's in scoring mode right now just like in 2018. Which should tell you how much his impact on his team is dropping since he his scoring isn't even helping the Lakers win.

Again I don't watch Lakers because they're irrelevant but James is not a real ruin protector even if we were talking about the Heat version that went all out defensively. The idea that he is a great defender native center is just troll bs from his stans that have some idiotic compulsion to claim he's the best ever at everything

[Baller789]

1987_Lakers getting bodied left and right :lol

Just admit it, the only reason you are saying Jordan Wasn't a great defender during the 2nd three-peat is due to a biased agenda.

[dankok8]

Not only was second threepeat MJ a great defender but I've seen a few people with real knowledge of the game argue that this was MJ's defensive peak. That in his early days in 1988 when he had a crazy motor he gambled too much. In the late 90's, the loss of athleticism almost helped in a way because it forced him to be fundamentally sound.

[3ba11]

Even crazier that he needed to load manage for almost 2yrs in order to get some of those all defensive teams. It was Harper that usually guarded the back courts biggest threat, while MJ would receive the accolades.


MJ wasn't physically hurt in 94' or 99' - he simply had the luxury of retiring due to goat winning... I guarantee that if he had lost to Barkley, he doesn't retire

But he beat Barkley with unprecedented dominance and winning (3-peat) - so he'd already given us something we'd never seen... No more challenges, hence retirement..

His unprecedented dominance and winning gave him the luxury to retire, otherwise he would've had to trudge forward like 11' Kobe or 14' Wade after their failed 3-peat attempts

[AlternativeAcc.]

MJ wasn't physically hurt in 94' or 99' - he simply had the luxury of retiring due to goat winning... I guarantee that if he had lost to Barkley, he doesn't retire

But he beat Barkley with unprecedented dominance and winning (3-peat) - so he'd already given us something we'd never seen... No more challenges, hence retirement..

His unprecedented dominance and winning gave him the luxury to retire, otherwise he would've had to trudge forward like 11' Kobe or 14' Wade after their failed 3-peat attempts

But he was challenged in minor league baseball and quit because it was too hard

That breaks the narrative that Jordan only wanted a challenge

He was just a quitter and wanted the easiest path. That's why he refused to play without Phil and Pippen, why he demanded trades from the bulls front office to get him more help, and cheated vs old ladies playing cards


Sorry to kill your fantasy, carry on

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Jordan finished 6th in voting and had 7 1st place DPOY votes in '96
He finished 5th in voting and had 3 1st place votes in '97
He finished 4th in voting and had 6 1st place votes in '98

Not a great defender?

Lebron last received 1st place votes for DPOY back 2013-'14. He got 2.

In their 30's Jordan has 25 1st place votes for DPOY. Lebron has 2.

Got. Damn. Don't do 'em like that bruh! :)

[Cyrus334]

But he was challenged in minor league baseball and quit because it was too hard

That breaks the narrative that Jordan only wanted a challenge

He was just a quitter and wanted the easiest path. That's why he refused to play without Phil and Pippen, why he demanded trades from the bulls front office to get him more help, and cheated vs old ladies playing cards


Sorry to kill your fantasy, carry on

There's a literal compilation of the guy you rock as your avatar quitting on his teams but this fool wants to call MJ a quitter :lol

[ImKobe]

1987_Lakers getting bodied left and right :lol

Just admit it, the only reason you are saying Jordan Wasn't a great defender during the 2nd three-peat is due to a biased agenda.

"MJ wasn't a great defender in the 2nd 3-Peat"

Some of us actually know the history and how MJ would take the challenge against the opposing team's best player in the biggest moments and do his job. Him shutting down Reggie in the 4th quarter of Game 7 '98 ECF doesn't get mentioned enough as one of his greatest defensive performances.

He had a higher DRAPM than Pippen in '97 & '98 Playoffs. His DWS numbers in the RS & POs from 96-98 are also on par with his first 3-Peat.

[HoopsNY]

Not only was second threepeat MJ a great defender but I've seen a few people with real knowledge of the game argue that this was MJ's defensive peak. That in his early days in 1988 when he had a crazy motor he gambled too much. In the late 90's, the loss of athleticism almost helped in a way because it forced him to be fundamentally sound.

Yea, which is why I mentioned that despite his decline athletically, he was so sound fundamentally. MJ improved the Wizards defense significantly, so what makes people think that during his prime years, he'd somehow be average?

[RogueBorg]

What you don't understand is people who vote usually are not watching every single game of every player. They are usually media people who just go off stats, reputation etc.


Did you watch every game Jordan played from 1996-1998? I'm guessing you didn't but somehow you know more than the voters did.

That's funny.

[RogueBorg]

I'm guessing the most watched team and player from 1996-1998 were the Chicago Bulls and Michael Jordan. I would bet there were voters that saw every game he played those years if not most. And it doesn't take long to see if someone can play. It doesn't take watching 82 Lakers games to see Lebron can't play D anymore.

DPOY voting doesn't matter if your hero has 2 votes in his 30's LMAO...poor Lebron, getting exposed everyday.

[Johnny32]

Yea, 2nd 3peat MJ wasn't a great defender. He usually guarded the weaker offensive players. He got the Kobe treatment in making All-Defensive teams when he shouldn't have.

As for OP, lol at a Rose & Morant stan talking about defense.

Lol anyone who argues this wasn't watching.

[Johnny32]

I'm guessing the most watched team and player from 1996-1998 were the Chicago Bulls and Michael Jordan. I would bet there were voters that saw every game he played those years if not most. And it doesn't take long to see if someone can play. It doesn't take watching 82 Lakers games to see Lebron can't play D anymore.

DPOY voting doesn't matter if your hero has 2 votes in his 30's LMAO...poor Lebron, getting exposed everyday.

Lol most? They have jobs covering the entire nba. There's a full schedule all season with all teams tard. It's 4/5 in the afternoon for more than half of the bulls games on the west coast. I'm sure they dropped everything to watch mj vs tor on a wednesday in feb.

[1987_Lakers]

Did you watch every game Jordan played from 1996-1998? I'm guessing you didn't but somehow you know more than the voters did.

That's funny.

I actually saw quite a few games, not all of them admittedly. What I saw is MJ taking lots of break on defense in guarding the weaker player. And in terms of impact alone, Ron Harper was more valuable to that team defensively in '97 & '98, he was the one taking the main challenge and guarding the opposing teams best backcourt player. Just my 2 cents.

[RogueBorg]

I actually saw quite a few games, not all of them admittedly.

You stated in an earlier post that we can't trust the voters opinions because they didn't watch every game. By your own admission, you didn't watch every game so we can't trust your opinion.

Those are your standards.

[1987_Lakers]

You stated in an earlier post that we can't trust the voters opinions because they didn't watch every game. By your own admission, you didn't watch every game so we can't trust your opinion.

Those are your standards.

And how can we trust yours? You thought LeBron got swept in 2014. :oldlol:

You googled to see who Mookie Blaylock was.

You don't have to trust me, I'm showing you how flawed DPOY and All-defensive teams can be. I for sure saw all of Kobe's games in 2008-2011, and the fact that he made All-Defensive teams those years over guys like Tony Allen is an absolute joke. I'm showing you all-defense and DPOY votings can be misleading. Think for yourself.

[Johnny32]

I actually saw quite a few games, not all of them admittedly. What I saw is MJ taking lots of break on defense in guarding the weaker player. And in terms of impact alone, Ron Harper was more valuable to that team defensively in '97 & '98, he was the one taking the main challenge and guarding the opposing teams best backcourt player. Just my 2 cents.

I actually did watch and record every game from 96-98. Had lg pass thru primestar. Was on parole with an 8pm curfew pissing in a cup twice a week. I had no life lol.

[RogueBorg]

And how can we trust yours? You thought LeBron got swept in 2014. :oldlol:

You googled to see who Mookie Blaylock was.

You don't have to trust me, I'm showing you how flawed DPOY and All-defensive teams can be. I for sure saw all of Kobe's games in 2008-2011, and the fact that he made All-Defensive teams those years over guys like Tony Allen is an absolute joke. I'm showing you all-defense and DPOY votings can be misleading. Think for yourself.

I'm definitely not going to take the opinion of some some dweeb on a forum over the voters. I saw him play. The voters opinions line up more closely to what I saw than what you have to say.

Here are the facts;
Jordan has 25 1st place DPOY votes in his 30's
Lebron has 2

Deal with it

[ImKobe]

And how can we trust yours? You thought LeBron got swept in 2014. :oldlol:

You googled to see who Mookie Blaylock was.

You don't have to trust me, I'm showing you how flawed DPOY and All-defensive teams can be. I for sure saw all of Kobe's games in 2008-2011, and the fact that he made All-Defensive teams those years over guys like Tony Allen is an absolute joke. I'm showing you all-defense and DPOY votings can be misleading. Think for yourself.

If MJ was much worse on D and didn't really try in the 2nd 3-Peat, how did the Bulls go from 4th to 3rd on D with Scottie missing half the season in '98? How is MJ's DRAPM higher than Pippen's in the '97 and '98 Playoffs if he played no D?

[theman93]

And how can we trust yours? You thought LeBron got swept in 2014. :oldlol:

You googled to see who Mookie Blaylock was.

You don't have to trust me, I'm showing you how flawed DPOY and All-defensive teams can be. I for sure saw all of Kobe's games in 2008-2011, and the fact that he made All-Defensive teams those years over guys like Tony Allen is an absolute joke. I'm showing you all-defense and DPOY votings can be misleading. Think for yourself.

LOL

Tony Allen was a bench warmer in 2008 and played 18 mpg. He was a bench warmer again in 2009 and only played in 46 games at 19 mpg. He was a bench warmer again in 2010 and only played 54 games at 17 mpg. He was deserving of no awards until he took a larger role in Memphis. And he was ESPECIALLY not more deserving than Kobe.

:roll::roll::roll:

https://media3.giphy.com/media/l4Ki2obCyAQS5WhFe/giphy.gif

[RogueBorg]

LOL

Tony Allen was a bench warmer in 2008 and played 18 mpg. He was a bench warmer again in 2009 and only played in 46 games at 19 mpg. He was a bench warmer again in 2010 and only played 54 games at 17 mpg. He was deserving of no awards until he took a larger role in Memphis. And he was ESPECIALLY not more deserving than Kobe.

:roll::roll::roll:

https://media3.giphy.com/media/l4Ki2obCyAQS5WhFe/giphy.gif

Someone call 911!

[theman93]

Someone call 911!

1987_Lakers is the Chris Dudley of ISH

http://share.gifyoutube.com/KYLNGn.gif

[HoopsNY]

I actually saw quite a few games, not all of them admittedly. What I saw is MJ taking lots of break on defense in guarding the weaker player. And in terms of impact alone, Ron Harper was more valuable to that team defensively in '97 & '98, he was the one taking the main challenge and guarding the opposing teams best backcourt player. Just my 2 cents.

Again, this is a different argument than "MJ was NOT a great defensive player in the second 3 peat."

[1987_Lakers]

What part of "GUYS like Tony Allen" didn't you understand. Theman's reading compression skills at an elementary school level. The fact that Kobe made All-defense over him in 2011 proves my point. It's been well documented Kobe got all-defensive nods when he shouldn't have. Phil Jackson came out and criticized his defense several times while he made all-defensive teams.

You guys want to label MJ a "great" defensive player while he was mostly guarding guys averaging 10 ppg while Ron Harper and Scottie Pippen had greater responsibilities on that end.

[1987_Lakers]

If MJ was much worse on D and didn't really try in the 2nd 3-Peat, how did the Bulls go from 4th to 3rd on D with Scottie missing half the season in '98? How is MJ's DRAPM higher than Pippen's in the '97 and '98 Playoffs if he played no D?

If you want to use DBPM than Ron Harper had a higher rating than MJ in 97 and 98. Which proves my point.

[theman93]

What part of "GUYS like Tony Allen" didn't you understand. Theman's reading compression skills at an elementary school level. The fact that Kobe made All-defense over him in 2011 proves my point. It's been well documented Kobe got all-defensive nods when he shouldn't have. Phil Jackson came out and criticized his defense several times while he made all-defensive teams.

You guys want to label MJ a "great" defensive player while he was mostly guarding guys averaging 10 ppg while Ron Harper and Scottie Pippen had greater responsibilities on that end.

LOL. “Guys like Tony Allen” includes Tony Allen you moron. Nice back peddle though :lol

What guards were more deserving of 1st Team All-Defense than Kobe in the years you mentioned and why?

[1987_Lakers]

LOL. “Guys like Tony Allen” includes Tony Allen you moron. Nice back peddle though :lol

What guards were more deserving of 1st Team All-Defense than Kobe in the years you mentioned and why?

Several, guys like Battier, Iggy, Allen, CP3 etc finished behind Kobe when they obviously should have been ahead of him in some years.

I watched Kobe and he often gambled on defense, left his man so he could over help, which left his man open. There was nothing that stood out and said he is All-defense. Unlike you, I actually watched Kobe during those years and have a fair assessment on the matter.

This forum used to joke all the time how he was making undeserving all-defensive teams. It was no secret his defense was just based off reputation.

Which I'm sure the same happened to MJ as he aged, not to say he was a negative defender at that point, but Pippen and Harper were more valuable defensively in those years.

[RogueBorg]

Several, guys like Battier, Iggy, Allen, CP3 etc finished behind Kobe when they obviously should have been ahead of him in some years.

I watched Kobe and he often gambled on defense, left his man so he could over help, which left his man open. There was nothing that stood out and said he is All-defense. Unlike you, I actually watched Kobe during those years and have a fair assessment on the matter.

This forum used to joke all the time how he was making undeserving all-defensive teams. It was no secret his defense was just based off reputation.

Which I'm sure the same happened to MJ as he aged, not to say he was a negative defender at that point, but Pippen and Harper were more valuable defensively in those years.

You still mentioned Tony Allen in your argument. It's like trying to teach algebra to a toad. You'll never get it.

[1987_Lakers]

You still mentioned Tony Allen in your argument. It's like trying to teach algebra to a toad. You'll never get it.

I mentioned him because it was the most obvious instance of Kobe robbing someone of an all-defensive Team. Go back to telling me how LeBron got swept in 2014. :oldlol:

[theman93]

Several, guys like Battier, Iggy, Allen, CP3 etc finished behind Kobe when they obviously should have been ahead of him in some years.

I watched Kobe and he often gambled on defense, left his man so he could over help, which left his man open. There was nothing that stood out and said he is All-defense. Unlike you, I actually watched Kobe during those years and have a fair assessment on the matter.

This forum used to joke all the time how he was making undeserving all-defensive teams. It was no secret his defense was just based off reputation.

Which I'm sure the same happened to MJ as he aged, not to say he was a negative defender at that point, but Pippen and Harper were more valuable defensively in those years.

Well 1987_Dudley, I’m not sure you watched Kobe much at all. You thought bench warmer Tony Allen who couldn’t even log 20 minutes a night while missing massive chunks of seasons was more worthy of 1st Team Defense than Kobe LOL.

Anyways, you’re not answering the question. Why were those players more deserving of 1st Team All Defense. Every single guy you listed gambled on defense. So that’s an awful argument. And if you want to argue Kobe lost gambles more you need to provide some data for that. You’re just making generalizations.

Why were those players you mentioned better defensively than Kobe?

[theman93]

And lol at bringing up ISH posts/threads to try and prove a point when you constantly dog this forum for not knowing anything about basketball. :lol

[RogueBorg]

Well 1987_Dudley

:roll: at 1987_Dudley

[dankok8]

Since the Bulls' DRAPM was the topic of discussion, let's present all the numbers.

1997 Bulls - Regular Season

Dennis Rodman +1.22 7,875 poss
Scottie Pippen +1.02 12,785 poss
Michael Jordan +0.99 12,727 poss
Ron Harper +0.50 7,000 poss

1997 Bulls - Playoffs

Ron Harper +1.95 2,032 poss
Michael Jordan +1.78 3,190 poss
Scottie Pippen +1.10 3,018 poss
Dennis Rodman +0.86 2,102 poss

1998 Bulls - Regular Season

Ron Harper +1.68 9,292 poss
Michael Jordan +0.64 13,075 poss
Dennis Rodman -0.51 11,608 poss
Scottie Pippen -0.67 6,828 poss

1998 Bulls - Playoffs

Dennis Rodman +0.73 2,788 poss
Michael Jordan +0.63 3,418 poss
Scottie Pippen +0.12 3,257 poss
Ron Harper -0.52 2,223 poss

Source: https://basketball-analytics.gitlab.io/rapm-data/

[1987_Lakers]

Well 1987_Dudley, I’m not sure you watched Kobe much at all. You thought bench warmer Tony Allen who couldn’t even log 20 minutes a night while missing massive chunks of seasons was more worthy of 1st Team Defense than Kobe.

Keep pointing out your weak reading comprehension skills. There is a reason why I put in "guys like Allen" but you were too dumb enough to understand what I was saying.

Not surprising, you are the same guy who thought Luka was a forward and earlier in the thread you stated MJ moslty guarded the toughest assignments during the 2nd 3peat, a point that has already been disproven by even HoopNY.

You don't know ball.

[1987_Lakers]

Since the Bulls' DRAPM was the topic of discussion, let's present all the numbers.

1997 Bulls - Regular Season

Dennis Rodman +1.22 7,875 poss
Scottie Pippen +1.02 12,785 poss
Michael Jordan +0.99 12,727 poss
Ron Harper +0.50 7,000 poss

1997 Bulls - Playoffs

Ron Harper +1.95 2,032 poss
Michael Jordan +1.78 3,190 poss
Scottie Pippen +1.10 3,018 poss
Dennis Rodman +0.86 2,102 poss

1998 Bulls - Regular Season

Ron Harper +1.68 9,292 poss
Michael Jordan +0.64 13,075 poss
Dennis Rodman -0.51 11,608 poss
Scottie Pippen -0.67 6,828 poss

1998 Bulls - Playoffs

Dennis Rodman +0.73 2,788 poss
Michael Jordan +0.63 3,418 poss
Scottie Pippen +0.12 3,257 poss
Ron Harper -0.52 2,223 poss

Source: https://basketball-analytics.gitlab.io/rapm-data/

Ron Harper was a beast.

[1987_Lakers]

"It was Harper that usually guarded the back courts biggest threat" :roll::roll::roll:

You're either trolling or clueless.

This dude really thought Ron Harper wasn't taking tougher defensive assignments than MJ.

:roll:

[Johnny32]

The second 3-peat bulls weakness was quick guards because mj lost even more on defense than he did offense after the comeback. He was still an aggressive ball hawk but didn't have the lateral quickness to match. He'd get absolutely embarrassed on a nightly basis in today's game on that end.

[theman93]

Keep pointing out your weak compression skills. There is a reason why I put in "guys like Allen" but you were too dumb enough to understand what I was saying.

Not surprising, you are the same guy who thought Luka was a forward and earlier in the thread you stated MJ moslty guarded the toughest assignments during the 2nd 3peat, a point that has already been disproven by even HoopNY.

You don't know ball.

"Guys like Tony Allen" means guys that are interchangeable with Tony Allen. Now, list all the players who couldn't log 20 minutes a night, who were stuck on the bench, who were missing massive chunks of seasons, that were more deserving of 1st-Team Defense than Kobe. :lol

Also, you keep dodging the question because you can't explain why any of those guys were better defenders than Kobe. All you have is generalized gambling :roll:. Tell me you don't know ball without telling me you don't know ball. :lol

[1987_Lakers]

"Guys like Tony Allen" means guys that are interchangeable with Tony Allen. Now, list all the players who couldn't log 20 minutes a night, who were stuck on the bench, who were missing massive chunks of seasons, that were more deserving of 1st-Team Defense than Kobe. :lol

Also, you keep dodging the question because you can't explain why any of those guys were better defenders than Kobe. All you have is generalized gambling :roll:. Tell me you don't know ball without telling me you don't know ball. :lol

Keep dodging how you thought Luka was a forward and how you thought MJ was guarding better players than Harper.

Exposed.

[dankok8]

Ron Harper was a beast.

Yes he was.

However another reasonable conclusion from that data is that MJ was absolutely an elite defender.

How about a reasonable take that Jordan, Pippen, Rodman and Harper were all really good defensively? Kind of like Green, Klay, Iggy and GP are as well.

[1987_Lakers]

Yes he was.

However another reasonable conclusion from that data is that MJ was absolutely an elite defender.

How about a reasonable take that Jordan, Pippen, Rodman and Harper were all really good defensively? Kind of like Green, Klay, Iggy and GP are as well.

I'm OK with calling MJ a good defender during that time, but "great" is stretching it.

The fact that MJ stans won't take anything less than "great" just shows how psycho they are.

[HoopsNY]

I'm OK with calling MJ a good defender during that time, but "great" is stretching it.

The fact that MJ stans won't take anything less than "great" just shows how psycho they are.

Or you're not seeing the fundamental flaws in your own argument. I seriously doubt that you watched a lot of the league back then, maybe 1998, but I think you're like 30 or 31? Which means you were 4 in 1996 and 5 in 1997. So I'm not sure how much you actually watched of MJ during those days.

Secondly, you began by saying he didn't deserve All-Defensive 1st Team selections the way Kobe didn't. The problem is, you didn't explain why other guys actually did deserve it above him (because well, they didn't).

Thirdly, you justified your premise by using the playoffs, meanwhile the award is a regular season award.

Lastly, you refer to Harper being a beast, meanwhile MJ was a superior defender to Harper. You're mistakingly thinking that because Phil switched Harper onto great perimeter guys, that it somehow meant that MJ was the inferior defender. He wasn't. It was just a strategy because Chicago needed MJ's offense.

You're also not factoring that MJ was high on the DPOY list. And this happened every single year. You also glossed over how well MJ played defense in Pippen's absence.

Honestly, there is so much evidence here against you that I'm wondering how much of this is rooted in you just hating MJ and wanting to prop up LeBron?

[theman93]

Or you're not seeing the fundamental flaws in your own argument. I seriously doubt that you watched a lot of the league back then, maybe 1998, but I think you're like 30 or 31? Which means you were 4 in 1996 and 5 in 1997. So I'm not sure how much you actually watched of MJ during those days.

Secondly, you began by saying he didn't deserve All-Defensive 1st Team selections the way Kobe didn't. The problem is, you didn't explain why other guys actually did deserve it above him (because well, they didn't).

Thirdly, you justified your premise by using the playoffs, meanwhile the award is a regular season award.

Lastly, you refer to Harper being a beast, meanwhile MJ was a superior defender to Harper. You're mistakingly thinking that because Phil switched Harper onto great perimeter guys, that it somehow meant that MJ was the inferior defender. He wasn't. It was just a strategy because Chicago needed MJ's offense.

You're also not factoring that MJ was high on the DPOY list. And this happened every single year. You also glossed over how well MJ played defense in Pippen's absence.

Honestly, there is so much evidence here against you that I'm wondering how much of this is rooted in you just hating MJ and wanting to prop up LeBron?

Bingo :lol

[1987_Lakers]

Or you're not seeing the fundamental flaws in your own argument. I seriously doubt that you watched a lot of the league back then, maybe 1998, but I think you're like 30 or 31? Which means you were 4 in 1996 and 5 in 1997. So I'm not sure how much you actually watched of MJ during those days.

Secondly, you began by saying he didn't deserve All-Defensive 1st Team selections the way Kobe didn't. The problem is, you didn't explain why other guys actually did deserve it above him (because well, they didn't).

Thirdly, you justified your premise by using the playoffs, meanwhile the award is a regular season award.

Lastly, you refer to Harper being a beast, meanwhile MJ was a superior defender to Harper. You're mistakingly thinking that because Phil switched Harper onto great perimeter guys, that it somehow meant that MJ was the inferior defender. He wasn't. It was just a strategy because Chicago needed MJ's offense.

You're also not factoring that MJ was high on the DPOY list. And this happened every single year. You also glossed over how well MJ played defense in Pippen's absence.

Honestly, there is so much evidence here against you that I'm wondering how much of this is rooted in you just hating MJ and wanting to prop up LeBron?

The problem is, I'm at work and don't really have time to fully explain. But yes, someone like Shane Battier was absolutely more deserving than Kobe on All-defense. I saw him numerous and be would stick on his guy like a glue, his man defense was far better and more consistent than Kobe.

And MJ hiding on defense while Harper takes on the tougher assignment just shows MJ's defensive impact was in fact limited. Calling him a great defender is a huge stretch when the impact wasn't there.

And I already went through DPOY voting crap and how inconsistent it can be year to year.

You can keep arguing but you are not going to change my mind. But I respect you for actually arguing with points, unlike TheMan who brings no facts to the convo and just quotes people he agrees with.

[dankok8]

I'm OK with calling MJ a good defender during that time, but "great" is stretching it.

The fact that MJ stans won't take anything less than "great" just shows how psycho they are.

Nobody is a psycho dude, not this time anyway. MJ was still a great defender in 97 and 98. The numbers show it. And not just these numbers... DRPM, DPIPM whatever. And then you have the All-Defensive teams, DPOY votes, and player testimonies. That's a whole lot of evidence that you are choosing to ignore.

HoopsNY already did most of the heavy lifting here... not much to add.

[ArbitraryWater]

what kind of weird ass question is that


Could Gobert have played better on defense this season?


The lengths y'all go to...

mind****ed.

[PeroAntic]

what kind of weird ass question is that


Could Gobert have played better on defense this season?


The lengths y'all go to...

mind****ed.

Its not. Because if he could and didn't in order to boost individual stats, he harmed his team. And if he was actually trying hard on D and this is his maximum impact there, it means hes washed up and not one of the best players in the league anymore as you stains claim.

[theman93]

The problem is, I'm at work and don't really have time to fully explain. But yes, someone like Shane Battier was absolutely more deserving than Kobe on All-defense. I saw him numerous and be would stick on his guy like a glue, his man defense was far better and more consistent than Kobe.

And MJ hiding on defense while Harper takes on the tougher assignment just shows MJ's defensive impact was in fact limited. Calling him a great defender is a huge stretch when the impact wasn't there.

And I already went through DPOY voting crap and how inconsistent it can be year to year.

You can keep arguing but you are not going to change my mind. But I respect you for actually arguing with points, unlike TheMan who brings no facts to the convo and just quotes people he agrees with.

The only thing you're coming to the table with regarding why Kobe wasn't deserving of 1st-Team All-Defense is that he gambled (all defenders do and you never quantified it or brought data to the table), ISH topics (which you've already thrown out as a board that doesn't know ball), and Battier could stick to his guy like glue (so could Kobe).

The fact that you said there's nothing about Kobe that said he's All-Defense is hilariously stupid. He ALWAYS kept his shoulders level with the ball, was great at learning his opponents tendencies and taking them away, had elite anticipation, had elite footwork which made it hard for his opponent to attack him and when they did he had the balance and recovery ability to attack his opponents hip and contest, had elite fundamentals, and most importantly had the willingness to compete.

I could keep going but there's no point. You're the equivalent of a basketball flat-earther. :lol

[Hey Yo]

There's a literal compilation of the guy you rock as your avatar quitting on his teams but this fool wants to call MJ a quitter :lol

MJ was under contract when he quit.

James uses his free agent rights.

HUGE difference

[ImKobe]

If you want to use DBPM than Ron Harper had a higher rating than MJ in 97 and 98. Which proves my point.

MJ was still a great defender..


https://youtu.be/MOuMwmXtgd0



https://youtu.be/IFiqeJcgXfg


https://youtu.be/YPlPNDXkIYk



And MJ hiding on defense while Harper takes on the tougher assignment just shows MJ's defensive impact was in fact limited. Calling him a great defender is a huge stretch when the impact wasn't there.



You're full of shit lol.

[Westbrook_Fan]

He’s the best defensive C in the league right now

[1987_Lakers]

Imagine using short clips to prove a point how he was a great defender, fact is he didn't guard Reggie Miller the whole game like Harper did.

I can easily do the same thing.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-4xwcxo9gk&t

Here is an actual full game of MJ getting torched. Does that mean he was a bad defender? No.

The travesty in all this is Ron Harper was pretty equal if not better than MJ in '97 & '98 in advanced defensive stats and he usually guarded the better player yet didn't make a single All-defensive teams during those years. That right there should tell you everything you need to know about how misleading these All-defensive teams are.

[Johnny32]

Imagine using short clips to prove a point how he was a great defender, fact is he didn't guard Reggie Miller the whole game like Harper did.

I can easily do the same thing.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-4xwcxo9gk&t

Here is an actual full game of MJ getting torched. Does that mean he was a bad defender? No.

The travesty in all this is Ron Harper was pretty equal if not better than MJ in '97 & '98 in advanced defensive stats and he usually guarded the better player yet didn't make a single All-defensive teams during those years. That right there should tell you everything you need to know about how misleading these All-defensive teams are.

i have that gm. kerr actually switched on chapman cuz mj couldn't guard him lol.

[ImKobe]

Imagine using short clips to prove a point how he was a great defender, fact is he didn't guard Reggie Miller the whole game like Harper did.

I can easily do the same thing.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-4xwcxo9gk&t

Here is an actual full game of MJ getting torched. Does that mean he was a bad defender? No.

The travesty in all this is Ron Harper was pretty equal if not better than MJ in '97 & '98 in advanced defensive stats and he usually guarded the better player yet didn't make a single All-defensive teams during those years. That right there should tell you everything you need to know about how misleading these All-defensive teams are.

The DWS & DRAPM numbers say MJ was still among the elite defenders in the league. There's plenty of footage out there of Jordan guarding all the best perimeter defenders around that time and he was still as good as any perimeter defender in the league when he took on the challenge. Reggie torched Ron Harper and MJ shut him down on & off the ball in the biggest game, holding him to 1 shot and 0 pts in the 4th quarter of a Game 7. Harper was a great defender, but he only played 23-28 mpg in the RS and 27 mpg in the Playoffs from 96-98.

MJ was #2 in DRAPM to Harper by a slight margin (1.95 vs 1.78) while playing ~15 more MPG in the '97 POs. MJ had a better DRAPM than Harper & Pippen in the '98 Playoffs.

[1987_Lakers]

The only thing you're coming to the table with regarding why Kobe wasn't deserving of 1st-Team All-Defense is that he gambled (all defenders do and you never quantified it or brought data to the table), ISH topics (which you've already thrown out as a board that doesn't know ball), and Battier could stick to his guy like glue (so could Kobe).

The fact that you said there's nothing about Kobe that said he's All-Defense is hilariously stupid. He ALWAYS kept his shoulders level with the ball, was great at learning his opponents tendencies and taking them away, had elite anticipation, had elite footwork which made it hard for his opponent to attack him and when they did he had the balance and recovery ability to attack his opponents hip and contest, had elite fundamentals, and most importantly had the willingness to compete.

I could keep going but there's no point. You're the equivalent of a basketball flat-earther. :lol

I actually watched those games, unlike you who didn't even watch Kobe or MJ. You actually thought MJ was the primary defender on Reggie Miller. Nuff said.

Here is what Phil Jackson said about Kobe's defense...

“Kobe’s defense, to be accurate, has faltered in recent years, despite his presence on the league’s all-defensive team. The voters have been seduced by his remarkable athleticism and spectacular steals, but he hasn’t played sound, fundamental defense.

"Mesmerized by the ball, he’s gambled too frequently, putting us out of position, forcing rotations that leave a man wide open, and doesn’t keep his feet on the ground.”

His own coach said this.

[1987_Lakers]

Reggie torched Ron Harper

https://apnews.com/article/999b3723f04a0075bb5737ccff32901c

Scottie Pippen shadowed Mark Jackson and was able to dog the Pacers’ point guard all over the floor. Reggie Miller, meanwhile, had trouble eluding the clingy defense of Ron Harper.

The Pacers lost Sunday’s series opener 85-79 when the Bulls surprised them with a defense that had Pippen all over Jackson, and Harper _ not Michael Jordan _ guarding Miller.

[ImKobe]

https://apnews.com/article/999b3723f04a0075bb5737ccff32901c

Scottie Pippen shadowed Mark Jackson and was able to dog the Pacers’ point guard all over the floor. Reggie Miller, meanwhile, had trouble eluding the clingy defense of Ron Harper.

The Pacers lost Sunday’s series opener 85-79 when the Bulls surprised them with a defense that had Pippen all over Jackson, and Harper _ not Michael Jordan _ guarding Miller.

That's not referring to Game 7. That's Game 1.

Harper played 3 minutes in the 4th quarter of Game 7. Yet Reggie was held scoreless when he played 6 more minutes than Ron. I wonder who was guarding him.

[1987_Lakers]

That's not referring to Game 7. That's Game 1.

Harper played 3 minutes in the 4th quarter of Game 7. Yet Reggie was held scoreless when he played 6 more minutes than Ron. I wonder who was guarding him.

Yes, lets ignore his game 1 defense on Reggie or game 2 when Reggie shot 4 of 13. Or games 4-6 when Reggie shot under 50% combined in those games with Harper mostly guarding him. Miller did not torch Ron Harper throughout the series.

[theman93]

I actually watched those games, unlike you who didn't even watch Kobe or MJ. You actually thought MJ was the primary defender on Reggie Miller. Nuff said.

Here is what Phil Jackson said about Kobe's defense...

“Kobe’s defense, to be accurate, has faltered in recent years, despite his presence on the league’s all-defensive team. The voters have been seduced by his remarkable athleticism and spectacular steals, but he hasn’t played sound, fundamental defense.

"Mesmerized by the ball, he’s gambled too frequently, putting us out of position, forcing rotations that leave a man wide open, and doesn’t keep his feet on the ground.”

His own coach said this.

Yeah in like 2004.

I’ve specifically asked you to address which players in the 2008-11 seasons you referenced were more deserving of 1st Team Defense than Kobe and why. All you’ve done is named a couple names and given no reasons since you back peddled off Tony Allen.

[1987_Lakers]

Yeah in like 2004.

I’ve specifically asked you to address which players in the 2008-11 seasons you referenced were more deserving of 1st Team Defense than Kobe and why. All you’ve done is named a couple names and given no reasons since you back peddled off Tony Allen.

I already did. I would like for you to explain this backfire post...


"It was Harper that usually guarded the back courts biggest threat" :roll::roll::roll:

You're either trolling or clueless.

Looks like you were the one who was clueless.

[ImKobe]

Yes, lets ignore his game 1 defense on Reggie or game 2 when Reggie shot 4 of 13. Or games 4-6 when Reggie shot under 50% combined in those games with Harper mostly guarding him. Miller did not torch Ron Harper throughout the series.

Harper did a good job but Reggie was giving it to him in Game 7. He didn't play that many minutes down the stretch of those games. Of course defense was his priority and he gave them a solid 25-30ish minutes in these games but that doesn't mean that Jordan was washed on the defensive end, there's really no evidence to back that one up.

[Johnny32]

they weren't watching lol

[WhiteKyrie]

LeBron hasn’t played defense since 2013

[Johnny32]

LeBron hasn’t played defense since 2013

lebron shut down lillard, murray, and butler in the 2020 championship run. all to close each series i believe lol. they're not watching.

[Johnny32]

okay maybe not to close each series but definitely the finals and butler. murray too i think who was dropping 50 on kawhi and pg.

[WhiteKyrie]

lebron shut down lillard, murray, and butler in the 2020 championship run. all to close each series i believe lol. they're not watching.

LeBron didn’t guard Damien Lillard in that series, and in that series Damian Lillard got hurt.

He also didn’t guard Jamal Murray either, who balled out that entire bubble playoffs.

He did however guard Jimmy Butler, and Jimmy Butler had what I consider his best playoff series ever and actually put a huge numbers against LeBron. To the point that his numbers are so high, and so much higher than normal, it almost offset all of LeBron’s production.

I’m sorry, he hasn’t played defense since 2014. Where he was second team defense.

But my overall point is exactly the same. He hasn’t played elite Jordan / Kobe / Pippen / Kawhi tier defense since 2013.

Hasn’t played good defense consistently since 2014. Since he was 29 years old.

[Johnny32]

LeBron didn’t guard Damien Lillard in that series, and in that series Damian Lillard got hurt. He also didn’t primarily guard Jamal Murray either, who balled out against them.

He did guard Jimmy Butler, and Jimmy Butler had what I consider his best playoff series ever and actually put a huge numbers against LeBron. To the point that his numbers are so high, and so much higher than normal, it almost offset all of LeBron’s production.

I’m sorry, he hasn’t played defense since 2014. Where he was second team defense.

But my overall point is exactly the same. He hasn’t played elite Jordan / Kobe / Pippen / Kawhi tier defense since 2013. Hasn’t played good defense consistently since 2014. Since he was 29 years old.

he guarded lillard and murray at times in both series. definitely guarded murray in gm 5 because the pathetic haters were claiming he was injured is why lebron held him to whatever it was. what's funny is he probably guarded lillard, murray, harden and butler all more than mj did the opposing teams top wing scorer in any series from 96-98 lol.

[Full Court]

Man, 1987_Dudley is getting DESTROYED in this thread.

HoopsNY, theman93, RogueBorg, dankok8, and ImKobe are just abusing this guy from wall to wall.

It's one of the biggest ownings I've ever seen on ISH. His arguments have no legs to stand on whatsoever. :lol

[RogueBorg]

Man, 1987_Dudley is getting DESTROYED in this thread.

HoopsNY, theman93, RogueBorg, dankok8, and ImKobe are just abusing this guy from wall to wall.

It's one of the biggest ownings I've ever seen on ISH. His arguments have no legs to stand on whatsoever. :lol

:roll: @ 1987_Dudley

[1987_Lakers]

Man, 1987_Dudley is getting DESTROYED in this thread.

HoopsNY, theman93, RogueBorg, dankok8, and ImKobe are just abusing this guy from wall to wall.

It's one of the biggest ownings I've ever seen on ISH. His arguments have no legs to stand on whatsoever. :lol

Funny how pretty much all those guys you listed are Bron haters. Whats funny is how triggered they got just because I gave out my opinion. That should tell you something.

You had TheMan come out and flat out say Harper wasn't guarding the opponents best offensive guards, which got exposed in this thread. The only poster who actually came with a decent argument is HoopsNY. If anyone got destroyed in this thread it was TheMan.

But nothing will ever top you calling Wilt top 3 ever because of "stats" when you yourself said he had empty stats. :oldlol:

[Full Court]

Funny how pretty much all those guys you listed are Bron haters. Whats funny is how triggered they got just because I gave out my opinion. That should tell you something.

You had TheMan come out and flat out say Harper wasn't guarding the opponents best offensive guards, which got exposed in this thread. The only poster who actually came with a decent argument is HoopsNY. If anyone got destroyed in this thread it was TheMan.

But nothing will ever top you calling Wilt top 3 ever because of "stats" when you yourself said he had empty stats. :oldlol:

What's even funnier is that all those guys I listed completely blew your arguments out of the water. theman93 completely owned you. :lol

As an aside, Wilt is top 3 of all time, and most definitely ranked ahead of your hero Bronie. You should ponder that for a while.

[1987_Lakers]

What's even funnier is that all those guys I listed completely blew your arguments out of the water. theman93 completely owned you. :lol

As an aside, Wilt is top 3 of all time, and most definitely ranked ahead of your hero Bronie. You should ponder that for a while.

He completely disappeared once I told him to answer for this false claim he made in page 1.


"It was Harper that usually guarded the back courts biggest threat" :roll::roll::roll:

You're either trolling or clueless.

If he saw those Bulls teams during that time, he would have known it was Harper who usually guarded the tougher assignments while MJ conserved his energy. He completely exposed himself for not watching the Bulls.

And yes, we know. Wilt is top 3 all time because of "stats" even though you said he had "empty stats"

:roll:

[Full Court]

He completely disappeared once I told him to answer for this false claim he made in page 1.



If he saw those Bulls teams during that time, he would have known it was Harper who usually guarded the tougher assignments while MJ conserved his energy. He completely exposed himself for not watching the Bulls.

And yes, we know. Wilt is top 3 all time because of "stats" even though you said he had "empty stats"

:roll:

There are three pages of you getting obliterated. You can keep putting forward the same debunked arguments all you want, but it's not going to get you anywhere.

Wilt had many years of empty stats, which is why he only won 2 rings (no small accomplishment, by the way), and which is why he is #3 of all time rather than #1. A little child should be able to understand this. You apparently can't, and by continuously bringing it up, you merely make yourself look stupid. So keep right on - it certainly doesn't bother me. :lol

[1987_Lakers]

Wilt had many years of empty stats, which is why he only won 2 rings (no small accomplishment, by the way), and which is why he is #3 of all time rather than #1. A little child should be able to understand this. You apparently can't, and by continuously bringing it up, you merely make yourself look stupid. So keep right on - it certainly doesn't bother me. :lol

Only a retard would claim someone is top 3 ever because of "stats" then go and say that same player had empty stats.

But I'm not surprised I'm talking to the same guy who thinks Morant is MVP despite his team being 20-2 without him. While at the same time you go around like a dumbass making "No LeBron, No difference." threads. The irony. You severely lack self awareness.

[HoopsNY]

Imagine using short clips to prove a point how he was a great defender, fact is he didn't guard Reggie Miller the whole game like Harper did.

I can easily do the same thing.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-4xwcxo9gk&t

Here is an actual full game of MJ getting torched. Does that mean he was a bad defender? No.

The travesty in all this is Ron Harper was pretty equal if not better than MJ in '97 & '98 in advanced defensive stats and he usually guarded the better player yet didn't make a single All-defensive teams during those years. That right there should tell you everything you need to know about how misleading these All-defensive teams are.

Again my problem with this perspective is that is pre-supposes that MJ was not a great defender because of the switch. It's a flawed argument to make given the reason (that Chicago needed MJ's offense). It's like saying Rodman was not a great defensive player in the '96 finals cause Kemp torched him in game 1, and then having Phil switch Longley onto Kemp the rest of the series.


Funny how pretty much all those guys you listed are Bron haters. Whats funny is how triggered they got just because I gave out my opinion. That should tell you something.

You had TheMan come out and flat out say Harper wasn't guarding the opponents best offensive guards, which got exposed in this thread. The only poster who actually came with a decent argument is HoopsNY. If anyone got destroyed in this thread it was TheMan.

But nothing will ever top you calling Wilt top 3 ever because of "stats" when you yourself said he had empty stats. :oldlol:

I'm certainly not a Bron hater. But the point still stands. Relying on Kobe when Allen wasn't a starter and barely played in the years in question isn't a strong argument.

If anything, it's a credit to guys like Allen and Harper, but it in no way makes Kobe and MJ just "good defenders." Allen averaged 18.8 MPG his first 7 seasons in the league, and wasn't a full-time starter until 2012 where he averaged a career high 26.3 MPG and ironically, that was the season he won All-Defensive 1st Team honors over Kobe, his first of his career.

I also think it's a bad comparison because Allen is an elite all time defensive player while Harper wasn't. Harper was solid, particularly in his Cavs years, but wasn't elite like Allen was.

The most glaring though is that 1987 can't come up with a list of guys who certainly deserved All-Defensive 1st Team honors over MJ. Not to mention MJ's DPOY finishes.

All of this tell us he was a great defensive player, in addition to what he was able to do as a defensive anchor without Pippen or when Pippen played but did so with a debilitated back.

[Full Court]

Only a retard would claim someone is top 3 ever because of "stats" then go and say that same player had empty stats.

But I'm not surprised I'm talking to the same guy who thinks Morant is MVP despite his team being 20-2 without him. While at the same time you go around like a dumbass making "No LeBron, No difference." threads. The irony. You severely lack self awareness.

Here's how you can tell that 1987_Dudley got completely owned: he tries to change the debate to Wilt. :roll:

Nice try, homie.

[1987_Lakers]

I'm certainly not a Bron hater. But the point still stands. Relying on Kobe when Allen wasn't a starter and barely played in the years in question isn't a strong argument.

If anything, it's a credit to guys like Allen and Harper, but it in no way makes Kobe and MJ just "good defenders." Allen averaged 18.8 MPG his first 7 seasons in the league, and wasn't a full-time starter until 2012 where he averaged a career high 26.3 MPG and ironically, that was the season he won All-Defensive 1st Team honors over Kobe, his first of his career.

I also think it's a bad comparison because Allen is an elite all time defensive player while Harper wasn't. Harper was solid, particularly in his Cavs years, but wasn't elite like Allen was.

The most glaring though is that 1987 can't come up with a list of guys who certainly deserved All-Defensive 1st Team honors over MJ. Not to mention MJ's DPOY finishes.

All of this tell us he was a great defensive player, in addition to what he was able to do as a defensive anchor without Pippen or when Pippen played but did so with a debilitated back.

You say Allen wasn't a starter, but Michael Cooper was a highly regarded defender in the 80's who mostly came off the bench. 2011 for me he was obviously more worthy of an all-defensive team over Kobe's lazy defense that year.

Here is my whole reasoning to why he wasn't a great defender in that time...With the Bulls conserving his energy on the defensive end by him guarding weaker players, this limits his overall defensive impact. While Harper & Pippen would do most of the dirty work, MJ would just sit back relax on that end. Yes, he had his spur of moments where he could lock up a big name, but it wasn't throughout the whole game. My whole reasoning of MJ not being a great defender is simply based off of him NOT having the defensive impact/responsibilities on that end like in years pasts. I don't know why that is so hard to understand. Harper was more deserving to be on those teams to be honest, (not including '96)

He was basically a slightly better version of older Kobe, and Kobe was from from a great defender as he got older.

And if you want to see how people felt about Kobe's defense...look no further then this thread...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?287018-Kobe-Bryant-will-NOT-make-the-ALL-DEFENSIVE-TEAM-this-Year


Kobe should not have been on defensive teams for most of the last few seasons. Yes I know he can play D when he wants but for the most part he has been conserving energy on that side of the ball for offense.


he has been undeserving of it for the last 4 years


0% chance of him making it.



He certainly shouldn't have been 1st Team in 2011 and he shouldn't have made either team last year. But he managed to make the 2nd team last year. This is the year he falls off.


OP is not exactly making a bold statement. For those who think he will, you'll have to be very wrong...unless he literally turns around his defensive season.


He has been a great defender at times during his career, but he hasn't deserved an all-defensive first or second team since at least '09, and didn't necessarily deserve every selection he got even when he was younger, such as making the all-defensive team in '07. Out of the all-defensive selections he did receive, I think he deserved the first team selections in '00 and '08 and the second team selections in '00 and '02. A few other years he got first team, I think second team would have been more appropriate.

I'm not sure he makes either team this year with how bad the Lakers have been, and in particular, their defense. Although Kobe's individual play has been a big story and might be enough.

The last poster ShaqAttack is often regarded as one of the best posters this site has ever had.

[1987_Lakers]

Here's how you can tell that 1987_Dudley got completely owned: he tries to change the debate to Wilt. :roll:

Nice try, homie.

You want nothing to do with me when I bring up Wilt or Morant. I understand. :lol

[HoopsNY]

You say Allen wasn't a starter, but Michael Cooper was a highly regarded defender in the 80's who mostly came off the bench. 2011 for me he was obviously more worthy of an all-defensive team over Kobe's lazy defense that year.

Here is my whole reasoning to why he wasn't a great defender in that time...With the Bulls conserving his energy on the defensive end by him guarding weaker players, this limits his overall defensive impact. While Harper & Pippen would do most of the dirty work, MJ would just sit back relax on that end. Yes, he had his spur of moments where he could lock up a big name, but it wasn't throughout the whole game. My whole reasoning of MJ not being a great defender is simply based off of him NOT having the defensive impact on that end like in years pasts. I don't know why that is so hard to understand. Harper was more deserving to be on those teams to be honest, (not including '96)

He was basically a slightly better version of older Kobe, and Kobe was from from a great defender as he got older.

And if you want to see how people felt about Kobe's defense...look no further then this thread...

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?287018-Kobe-Bryant-will-NOT-make-the-ALL-DEFENSIVE-TEAM-this-Year









The last poster ShaqAttack is often regarded as one of the best posters this site has ever had.

You're comparing Allen to Cooper when Cooper regularly played 82 games and averaged almost 30 minutes a game. You're stifling your conscience and using other posters on ISH to prove your point. Allen averaged 57 games his first 7 seasons at less than 20 minutes a game.

I'm not discrediting your assertions as to the strategy that Chicago employed. But again, it doesn't mean that MJ wasn't a great defensive player, especially when his help defense was some of the best in the league, which is irrespective to who he was guarding man to man.

[Full Court]

You want nothing to do with me when I bring up Wilt or Morant. I understand. :lol

Funny how any accolades given to Wilt or Morant trigger you so much. Nice try again to deflect from the fact that Bronie's crap defense this year doesn't even hold a candle to 38-year old MJ's defense.

[1987_Lakers]

You're comparing Allen to Cooper when Cooper regularly played 82 games and averaged almost 30 minutes a game. You're stifling your conscience and using other posters on ISH to prove your point. Allen averaged 57 games his first 7 seasons at less than 20 minutes a game.

Cooper made an All-defense one year averaging around 25 mpg which is no too far off of Allen's 21 mpg in 2011 which is the year I'm referring to.

If you made a poll among real NBA fans in 2011 regarding who was the better defender between Kobe & Allen, a huge majority of them would say Allen. Especially when you consider the fact that in the last 3 months of that 2011 season, Allen was averaging 26 mpg.

Believe me when I tell you Kobe's defense was not highly regarded around that time among true fans. :lol

[1987_Lakers]

Funny how any accolades given to Wilt or Morant trigger you so much. Nice try again to deflect from the fact that Bronie's crap defense this year doesn't even hold a candle to 38-year old MJ's defense.

Quite the opposite, seeing you praise those players for the same reasons you discredit LeBron humors me and makes you look like a fool.

[Baller789]

As an outsider looking in, 1987_Lakers arguments are kinda weak.

Plus this is a Lebron thread supposedly.

[HoopsNY]

As an outsider looking in, 1987_Lakers arguments are kinda weak.

His arguments are actually strong and well thought out. However, they're misplaced. He just used Allen's 2011 to compare to Coopers' '85 season. Allen played in 72 games and averaged 21 MPG to Cooper's 82 games averaging over 26 MPG.

And it obfuscates the original premise, which is that MJ wasn't a great defensive player and the justification being Harper, a player nowhere near the level of Allen. As I mentioned, there is no one who deserved 1st team over him. And cross referencing Kobe and Allen doesn't help in this case, though it does beg to ask some questions which 1987 has raised.

[1987_Lakers]

As a LeBron hater looking in, 1987_Lakers arguments are kinda weak.

Plus this is a Lebron thread supposedly.

Fixed. Who are you fooling? lmao.

[1987_Lakers]

His arguments are actually strong and well thought out. However, they're misplaced. He just used Allen's 2011 to compare to Coopers' '85 season. Allen played in 72 games and averaged 21 MPG to Cooper's 82 games averaging over 26 MPG.

And it obfuscates the original premise, which is that MJ wasn't a great defensive player and the justification being Harper, a player nowhere near the level of Allen. As I mentioned, there is no one who deserved 1st team over him. And cross referencing Kobe and Allen doesn't help in this case, though it does beg to ask some questions which 1987 has raised.

Thank you. :cheers:

[Full Court]

Quite the opposite, seeing you praise those players for the same reasons you discredit LeBron humors me and makes you look like a fool.

Even your precious stats you always point to show that Bronie can't measure up to them. You're hopelessly biased.

[HoopsNY]

Thank you. :cheers:

You're welcome, though that was an acknowledgement on my part, not an agreement. lol

[Full Court]

His arguments are actually strong and well thought out. However, they're misplaced. He just used Allen's 2011 to compare to Coopers' '85 season. Allen played in 72 games and averaged 21 MPG to Cooper's 82 games averaging over 26 MPG.

And it obfuscates the original premise, which is that MJ wasn't a great defensive player and the justification being Harper, a player nowhere near the level of Allen. As I mentioned, there is no one who deserved 1st team over him. And cross referencing Kobe and Allen doesn't help in this case, though it does beg to ask some questions which 1987 has raised.

He puts a lot of effort into his arguments for sure. But they are not strong. His reasoning is flawed, which makes his arguments unsound, and therefore weak.

[theman93]

I already did. I would like for you to explain this backfire post...



Looks like you were the one who was clueless.

Nope. Regarding 1998:


HARP COULD TAKE A GUY FOR FOUR OR FIVE MINUTES, GIVE SCOTTIE AND MICHAEL A LITTLE BREAK. I THINK THAT’S WHERE HE WAS MOST IMPORTANT BECAUSE HE FILLED IN AS A UTILITY GUY. LET ME GIVE SCOTTIE A BREAK, LET ME GIVE MICHAEL A BREAK, GO GUARD KEVIN JOHNSON. THINGS LIKE THAT.

https://thesportsrush.com/nba-news-ron-harpers-elite-defense-helped-bulls-secure-their-second-3-peat-kendall-gill-reveals-some-interesting-details-about-the-bulls-defense/

1987_Dudley gets bodied again.

http://share.gifyoutube.com/KYLNGn.gif

[1987_Lakers]

He puts a lot of effort into his arguments for sure. But they are not strong. His reasoning is flawed, which makes his arguments unsound, and therefore weak.

And your reasoning to having Wilt top 3 ever because of "stats" right after you said he had "empty stats" isn't flawed at all. :oldlol:

Self awareness is key Full court.

[1987_Lakers]

Nope. Regarding 1998:



https://thesportsrush.com/nba-news-ron-harpers-elite-defense-helped-bulls-secure-their-second-3-peat-kendall-gill-reveals-some-interesting-details-about-the-bulls-defense/

1987_Dudley gets bodied again.

http://share.gifyoutube.com/KYLNGn.gif

Did you just post something that proved my point? Lol.

But go back and watch the '98 ECF and tell me who guarded Reggie more between Harper and MJ. The answer is quite obvious.

[theman93]

Did you just post something that proved my point? Lol.

But go back and watch the '98 ECF and tell me who guarded Reggie more between Harper and MJ. The answer is quite obvious.

MJ spent many possessions on Miller. You argued MJ hid on defense in 1998 while Harp took the tougher assignment. Turns out you're wrong and it was actually Harp who'd give MJ/Scottie a break.

http://share.gifyoutube.com/KYLNGn.gif

[theman93]

He puts a lot of effort into his arguments for sure. But they are not strong. His reasoning is flawed, which makes his arguments unsound, and therefore weak.

Sad he puts so much effort into his arguments only to come to the conclusion that players like Tony Allen, who missed halves of seasons and couldn't even log 20 minutes a game, were deserving of 1st Team All-Defense. :roll:

[1987_Lakers]

MJ spent many possessions on Miller. You argued MJ hid on defense in 1998 while Harp took the tougher assignment. Turns out you're wrong and it was actually Harp who'd give MJ/Scottie a break.

http://share.gifyoutube.com/KYLNGn.gif

If you simply watched the games on YouTube instead of looking for articles you would find a clear answer to who guarded Reggie more. I'll give you some more time.

[1987_Lakers]

Sad he puts so much effort into his arguments only to come to the conclusion that players like Tony Allen, who missed halves of seasons and couldn't even log 20 minutes a game, were deserving of 1st Team All-Defense. :roll:

He averaged 25 mpg in the last 3 months of the season in 2011. Try again. Which is the year I was referring too.

I'm sorry you lack reading comprehension skills.

[Full Court]

And your reasoning to having Wilt top 3 ever because of "stats" right after you said he had "empty stats" isn't flawed at all. :oldlol:

Self awareness is key Full court.

You're once again completely ignoring my actual argument. Which, once again, just makes you look dumb.

:applause: Nice try again, homie.

[theman93]

If you simply watched the games on YouTube instead of looking for articles you would find a clear answer to who guarded Reggie more. I'll give you some more time.

Already did nerd.

Anyways, your entire premise for MJ not being a great defender was because you thought Harper was taking the tougher assignment, when it was actually MJ and Pippen who were taking the tougher assignment and then Harper would spell them.

Your entire argument has been chewed up and spit out.

http://share.gifyoutube.com/KYLNGn.gif

[theman93]

He averaged 25 mpg in the last 3 months of the season in 2011. Try again. Which is the year I was referring too.

I'm sorry you lack reading comprehension skills.

LOL oh ok. This you?


And how can we trust yours? You thought LeBron got swept in 2014. :oldlol:

You googled to see who Mookie Blaylock was.

You don't have to trust me, I'm showing you how flawed DPOY and All-defensive teams can be. I for sure saw all of Kobe's games in 2008-2011, and the fact that he made All-Defensive teams those years over guys like Tony Allen is an absolute joke. I'm showing you all-defense and DPOY votings can be misleading. Think for yourself.

:roll::roll::roll:

[MadDog]

Obviously. Although that would require sacrificing stats & individual achievements. Something I doubt LeBron was wiilling to do. Here's another question though. Are the Lakers better with him playing PG, hustling on defense and scoring LESS? I'd say marginally tbh given the Laker injuries. Fact is the pieces don't fit.

[RogueBorg]

He averaged 25 mpg in the last 3 months of the season in 2011. Try again. Which is the year I was referring too.



The last 3 months of the season LOL? So to make your argument work you want to ignore October, November, December, and January?

1987_Dudley fitting you more and more you post.

[Full Court]

Obviously. Although that would require sacrificing stats & individual achievements. Something I doubt LeBron was wiilling to do. Here's another question though. Are the Lakers better with him playing PG, hustling on defense and scoring LESS? I'd say marginally tbh given the Laker injuries. Fact is the pieces don't fit.

Given the fact that the Lakers don't suffer with scoring most games Lebron is out, and that they suffer defensively whether he plays or not, I think the Lakers would be much better off with him hustling on defense and scoring less. And benching him in the 4th quarter of course.

[1987_Lakers]

"Guys like". Obviously referring to other players along with Allen.



"It was Harper that usually guarded the back courts biggest threat" :roll::roll::roll:

You're either trolling or clueless.

Is this you??

:roll:

[Baller789]

Given the fact that the Lakers don't suffer with scoring most games Lebron is out, and that they suffer defensively whether he plays or not, I think the Lakers would be much better off with him hustling on defense and scoring less. And benching him in the 4th quarter of course.

Lakers have enough scorers. They have Westbrook, AD and Anthony for f*ck sake. The chosen one should put more effort on D and let others shoot more instead of stat padding.

[theman93]

The last 3 months of the season LOL? So to make your argument work you want to ignore October, November, December, and January?

1987_Dudley fitting you more and more you post.

Kobe didn't deserve 1st Team All-Defense in 2011, but the guy who we have to ignore the first 4 months of his season is totally more deserving. LOL that's 1987_Dudley for you.

[MadDog]

Given the fact that the Lakers don't suffer with scoring most games Lebron is out, and that they suffer defensively whether he plays or not, I think the Lakers would be much better off with him hustling on defense and scoring less. And benching him in the 4th quarter of course.

Lol'd at the bolded. Kinda hard to argue looking at his clutch play (shoots 31% in the final 5 minutes and in the 20 percentile during the last 24 seconds :wtf:). What is "much better off" to you though? Are they still a play-in team? :confusedshrug:

[theman93]

"Guys like". Obviously referring to other players along with Allen.

And? "Along with Allen" includes Allen. Do you understand English? :roll:





Is this you??

:roll:

Harper didn't usually guard the back courts biggest threat. It was usually MJ or Pip. I just gave you an eye-witness testimony. Keep back peddling LOL

[Baller789]

This narrative by Bronies that Harper always took the tougher defensive matchup from MJ is just :oldlol:

[theman93]

This narrative by Bronies that Harper always took the tougher defensive matchup from MJ is just :oldlol:

I've changed it. 1987_Lakers is no longer the Chris Dudley of ISH. He is the Brandon Knight of ISH.

1987_Knight

https://24.media.tumblr.com/d8c11c599c5b276ba264ab6b428a4a44/tumblr_mjhfelXCEw1rq2jzro1_500.gif

https://i.gifer.com/9McN.gif

[Full Court]

And 1987_Dudley just CONTINUES to get bodybagged all over the place. This guy....

:lol

[Full Court]

I've changed it. 1987_Lakers is no longer the Chris Dudley of ISH. He is the Brandon Knight of ISH.

1987_Knight

https://24.media.tumblr.com/d8c11c599c5b276ba264ab6b428a4a44/tumblr_mjhfelXCEw1rq2jzro1_500.gif

https://i.gifer.com/9McN.gif

:roll:

[RogueBorg]

"Guys like". Obviously referring to other players along with Allen.




Is this you??

:roll:

Dude, you're making yourself look worse every post. You can keep ethering yourself if you want but you're not going to live this one down. When you say "Guys like Tony Allen" it includes Tony Allen. To say Allen was more deserving than Kobe and then to keep defending it makes you look really desperate.

https://media1.giphy.com/media/l4Ki2obCyAQS5WhFe/giphy.gif

[RogueBorg]

I've changed it. 1987_Lakers is no longer the Chris Dudley of ISH. He is the Brandon Knight of ISH.

1987_Knight

https://24.media.tumblr.com/d8c11c599c5b276ba264ab6b428a4a44/tumblr_mjhfelXCEw1rq2jzro1_500.gif

https://i.gifer.com/9McN.gif

If you keep this up, 1987_Knight aka 1987_Dudley is going to press charges for abuse.

[Full Court]

If you keep this up, 1987_Knight aka 1987_Dudley is going to press charges for abuse.

Dudley's getting abused here just like his hero Bronie got abused by Reggie Jackson last time he played the Clips. :lol

[NBAGOAT]

allen's literally the reason memphis became a playoff team. they were 25-24 after january. Finished the year 21-12. Memphis was a below average defense in 2010 top 10 in 2011, rapm has him a top 10 defender and he passes everyone's eye test. Yes usually guys who dont play much dont deserve it but he absolutely did so most of the people in this thread are being idiots. I wont comment on the harper stuff since too lazy to rewatch but yea would think pippen/mj took more assignments. People over value 1on1 defense however.

As for the lebron question, ofc lebron could but they're not better. Lebron does less on offense means westbrook doing more and you would have one of the worst offenses in the league

[1987_Lakers]

And? "Along with Allen" includes Allen. Do you understand English? :roll:






Harper didn't usually guard the back courts biggest threat. It was usually MJ or Pip. I just gave you an eye-witness testimony. Keep back peddling LOL

Eye witness testimony from a player who didn't even play for the Bulls. Is that the best you got? :roll:

Try actually watching the games. They are on YouTube.

[1987_Lakers]

allen's literally the reason memphis became a playoff team. they were 25-24 after january. Finished the year 21-12. Memphis was a below average defense in 2010 top 10 in 2011, rapm has him a top 10 defender and he passes everyone's eye test. Yes usually guys who dont play much dont deserve it but he absolutely did so most of the people in this thread are being idiots. I wont comment on the harper stuff since too lazy to rewatch but yea would think pippen/mj took more assignments. People over value 1on1 defense however.

As for the lebron question, ofc lebron could but they're not better. Lebron does less on offense means westbrook doing more and you would have one of the worst offenses in the league

Funny how these MJ stans can't distinguish facts from fiction.

[MadDog]

Tony Allen was a monster defensively ngl. Those MEM teams gave KD all he could handle. I believe KD also said Allen was the best defender he's ever faced.

[theman93]

Eye witness testimony from a player who didn't even play for the Bulls. Is that the best you got? :roll:

Try actually watching the games. They are on YouTube.

Yeah, just a player who played the Bulls 4 times in the regular season and then again in the playoffs in 1998.

All this evidence and you just deny, deny, deny. You may as well be a flat earther. :roll:

[NBAGOAT]

Lakers have enough scorers. They have Westbrook, AD and Anthony for f*ck sake. The chosen one should put more effort on D and let others shoot more instead of stat padding.

ad was injured for half the year, westbrook can barely get over 50ts% and routinely gets ignored on defense and all melo is at this stage of his career is a black hole scorer. I would hope by now people realize a team needs shot creation not just scoring to have good offenses and bron is by far the best at that on the lakers.

[NBAGOAT]

Funny how these MJ stans can't distinguish facts from fiction.

ofc i'm not surprised but all the people suddenly questioning tony allen is a bit comical lol. Maybe someone who played more minutes deserved it in 2011 but come on, it's seriously some revisionist history to question if he deserved those all-defense teams.

Edit: and yes he deserved it more over kobe lol. It's like asking did thybulle(who played 20mpg) deserve it over lebron. Ofc he did and lebron was actually good on defense last year unlike kobe in 2011.

[theman93]

ofc i'm not surprised but all the people suddenly questioning tony allen is a bit comical lol. Maybe someone who played more minutes deserved it in 2011 but come on, it's seriously some revisionist history to question if he deserved those all-defense teams.

Ain't nobody questioning if he deserved it. Of course he deserved it. The question is if he deserved it over Kobe. And if he did, then why?

[1987_Lakers]

ofc i'm not surprised but all the people suddenly questioning tony allen is a bit comical lol. Maybe someone who played more minutes deserved it in 2011 but come on, it's seriously some revisionist history to question if he deserved those all-defense teams.

Edit: and yes he deserved it more over kobe lol. It's like asking did thybulle(who played 20mpg) deserve it over lebron. Ofc he did and lebron was actually good on defense last year unlike kobe in 2011.

:cheers:

[MadDog]

As for the lebron question, ofc lebron could but they're not better. Lebron does less on offense means westbrook doing more and you would have one of the worst offenses in the league

That's where I'm at as well. Could've won a few more games (on effort alone, his teammates would've followed suit) and possibly made the play-in. They weren't gonna make noise in the playoffs though. This team doesn't mesh. You could say that's on LeBron and I wouldn't argue it (his leadership has been poor), but just pointing that out doesn't solve the problem. Should be an interesting off-season.

[NBAGOAT]

Ain't nobody questioning if he deserved it. Of course he deserved it. The question is if he deserved it over Kobe. And if he did, then why?

he was a better defender even in 20mpg. He added more wins to his team defensively than kobe who was enough of a net negative in 2011 that he didnt add any wins on defense most likely.

[NBAGOAT]

That's where I'm at as well. Could've won a few more games (on effort alone, his teammates would've followed suit) and possibly made the play-in. They weren't gonna make noise in the playoffs though. This team doesn't mesh. You could say that's on LeBron and I wouldn't argue it (his leadership has been poor), but just pointing that out doesn't solve the problem. Should be an interesting off-season.

yea gm bron is a bit of a disaster. Lebron was banking on westbrook giving him a break over a more well rounded lower usage pg cough kyle lowry cough. Problem is even when westbrook played well in houston and wizards, his teams did not play well when harden/beal sat. He's just not good enough to be a lead shot creator even vs bench units anymore. Add on his really poor shooting is pretty hard to build around fit wise.

Edit: and the lakers have to pray a team like indiana will take on westbrook+infinite 2nd rd picks for like brogdon/hield or utah blows it up and shops conley.

[theman93]

he was a better defender even in 20mpg. He added more wins to his team defensively than kobe who was enough of a net negative in 2011 that he didnt add any wins on defense most likely.

Kobe had 3.5 DWS in 2011 lol what are you smoking hombre?

Tony Allen was 1st Team Defense in 2012 yet Mario Chalmers had more DWS. Was Chalmers more deserving of 1st Team Defense than Allen? Lol

[NBAGOAT]

Kobe had 3.5 DWS in 2011 lol what are you smoking hombre?

Tony Allen was 1st Team Defense in 2012 yet Mario Chalmers had more DWS. Was Chalmers more deserving of 1st Team Defense than Allen? Lol

Don’t use dws, it’s garbage for evaluating defense. Ws are calculated from ortg/drtg. https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ratings.html. Basically to summarize since Ik you won’t read or understand the full article, drtg is only calculated based off defensive box score(blocks steals rebounds) and some team efficiency stats. You can see how this will never give enough credit to a perimeter defender like Allen.

[theman93]

Don’t use dws, it’s garbage for evaluating defense. Ws are calculated from ortg/drtg. https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ratings.html. Basically to summarize since Ik you won’t read or understand the full article, drtg is only calculated based off defensive box score(blocks steals rebounds) and some team efficiency stats. You can see how this will never give enough credit to a perimeter defender like Allen.

You're the one who brought up wins added defensively, not me. By what standard?

[Baller789]

ad was injured for half the year, westbrook can barely get over 50ts% and routinely gets ignored on defense and all melo is at this stage of his career is a black hole scorer. I would hope by now people realize a team needs shot creation not just scoring to have good offenses and bron is by far the best at that on the lakers.

We know AD is injured, duh. Maybe if the Lakers ran a better offensive system and their leader played better D they might actually make.the playoffs. Because it's obvious Bron ball isn't working for the team.

[1987_Lakers]

Yeah, just a player who played the Bulls 4 times in the regular season and then again in the playoffs in 1998.

All this evidence and you just deny, deny, deny. You may as well be a flat earther. :roll:

You want evidence?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bivrGOqhTlE


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RX72Lt3NxB0


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7IkWp9vlZE

along with games 4-7

Watch these games and get back to me, stop being lazy. The evidence is right there. Notice how Jordan is mostly on past prime Mullin.

[NBAGOAT]

You're the one who brought up wins added defensively, not me. By what standard?

Not win shares. Any stat from the plus minus family will do. Rapm rpm etc. so one source http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2011/position/2. Kobe has a -1drpm Allen is a +1.8. Also yes ik the order of list overall is garbage but that’s not the point of these stats, to make exact rankings. You can’t really say one guy is better than the other based off a .5 difference but you can say a guy who’s a +4 on offense is better than a guy who’s a +0.

[theman93]

Not win shares. Any stat from the plus minus family will do. Rapm rpm etc. so one source http://www.espn.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/year/2011/position/2. Kobe has a -1drpm Allen is a +1.8. Also yes ik the order of list overall is garbage but that’s not the point of these stats, to make exact rankings. You can’t really say one guy is better than the other based off a .5 difference but you can say a guy who’s a +4 on offense is better than a guy who’s a +0.

McGrady's drpm was 3.57 which is significantly better than Allen's 1.8.

Are you seriously prepared to say broken down T-Mac was a better defender than Tony Allen entering his prime?

[1987_Lakers]

You want evidence?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bivrGOqhTlE


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RX72Lt3NxB0


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7IkWp9vlZE

along with games 4-7

Watch these games and get back to me, stop being lazy. The evidence is right there. Notice how Jordan is mostly on past prime Mullin.

As expected, no response from TheMan, can't hide from evidence when it's right in your face.

https://c.tenor.com/mXj4wkpLVzsAAAAM/mike-tyson-boxing.gif

[bison]

Lebron had a great season.

The lakers did not.

Those two statements should tell you everything.

[Replay32]

MJ not being a great defender during the 2nd 3-peat is laughable. There's individual defense and team defense, and MJ was great at both no matter Phil's defensive game plan.

As far as Lebron's defense this year. He's played out of position a lot on D this year. He's been really poor when he's played center on defense. Pick and roll coverage and rotating out to three point shooters, he hasn't a good job this year. Lebron has also done a little too much cherry picking this year and not running back on defense. This hasn't worked well for him or the team, cuz it more often than not has bit them in the ass.

I agree that Kobe got a lot of undeserved all defensive selection later in his career. Kobe did a lot of roaming and not rotating or closing out on shooters too when he began to age. He played decent on ball defense, but like lebron, Kobe's team defense wasn't great. The difference is back then, teams didn't shoot and make as many 3's, so Kobe was able to get away with it a little more.

I think Lebron was trying to pick his spots this year and the defensive schemes that the coaching staff has come up with has been terrible.

[Axe]

As expected, no response from TheMan, can't hide from evidence when it's right in your face.

https://c.tenor.com/mXj4wkpLVzsAAAAM/mike-tyson-boxing.gif
Poor coach lol.

[theman93]

As expected, no response from TheMan, can't hide from evidence when it's right in your face.

https://c.tenor.com/mXj4wkpLVzsAAAAM/mike-tyson-boxing.gif

Why would I keep wasting my time with you, 1987_Knight? You've been getting dunked on balls to the face style all day. You're the town whore who we've all taken our turns on today. :lol You couldn't even keep up with your own argument, let alone even grasp my initial point.

https://24.media.tumblr.com/d8c11c599c5b276ba264ab6b428a4a44/tumblr_mjhfelXCEw1rq2jzro1_500.gif

https://i.gifer.com/9McN.gif

[1987_Lakers]

Why would I keep wasting my time with you, 1987_Knight? You've been getting dunked on balls to the face style all day. You're the town whore who we've all taken our turns on today. :lol You couldn't even keep up with your own argument, let alone even grasp my initial point.

https://24.media.tumblr.com/d8c11c599c5b276ba264ab6b428a4a44/tumblr_mjhfelXCEw1rq2jzro1_500.gif

https://i.gifer.com/9McN.gif

Look at that, once hardcore evidence got thrown in your face your only response is "I'm not wasting anytime with you"

"But the guy on a different team said something else". :oldlol:

You lose buddy.

https://c.tenor.com/7SLOHBr9uZYAAAAM/mike-tyson-uppercut.gif

[NBAGOAT]

McGrady's drpm was 3.57 which is significantly better than Allen's 1.8.

Are you seriously prepared to say broken down T-Mac was a better defender than Tony Allen entering his prime?

yea there are going be some iffy ones. You can find even worse by win shares however. I told you how the stat was calculated it's obviously garbage for evaluating individual defense. Feel free to feel the same dissecting rpm(though your case wont be as convincing)

[ImKobe]

yea there are going be some iffy ones. You can find even worse by win shares however. I told you how the stat was calculated it's obviously garbage for evaluating individual defense. Feel free to feel the same dissecting rpm(though your case wont be as convincing)

RPM is flawed as well. All the metrics surrounding the defensive impact numbers are heavily flawed and are impacted more by the overall team defense and not necessarily the impact 1 player has on that end of the court. Clint Capela is #1 in DRPM right now (according to ESPN's page, #2 last year) because he's one of the few good defenders on the Hawks, but he's never been considered to be a great defensive player.

Look at last season. Joe Harris out of all people is ranked 4th overall in DRPM.. Duncan Robinson 10th (lol). Randle at 3rd is hilarious as well if we're going to rank the best defensive players based on that stat.

[NBAGOAT]

RPM is flawed as well. All the metrics surrounding the defensive impact numbers are heavily flawed and are impacted more by the overall team defense and not necessarily the impact 1 player has on that end of the court. Clint Capela is #1 in DRPM right now (according to ESPN's page, #2 last year) because he's one of the few good defenders on the Hawks, but he's never been considered to be a great defensive player.

Look at last season. Joe Harris out of all people is ranked 4th overall in DRPM.. Duncan Robinson 10th (lol). Randle at 3rd is hilarious as well if we're going to rank the best defensive players based on that stat.

yea rpm is not my preferred one especially after they changed the methodology, I like rapm more. It's just the 1st one I looked up. I think you would agree it's a lot better still than using win shares, the formula is faulty there. rpm like those other stats are based on plus minus which is imo best all in one stat to go, they just differ in the box score component Also tony allen was just better/more impactful defensively than kobe in 2011, think even you wouldnt disagree and this is something that wouldnt ever get debated on any other forum

Only part I disagree with is Capela. RPM does overvalue him this year imo but he was all-defense last year and was always good in houston too. Maybe not great but more than just a good defender with them.

[Baller789]

For defense, I'd take the eye test over any advanced metric.

[NBAGOAT]

For defense, I'd take the eye test over any advanced metric.

a good eye test or some actual film analysis sure. On here, people's eye tests are awful. Also in debates kind of lets someone just state an opinion without actually backing it up if you just say my eye test says this.

[theman93]

Look at that, once hardcore evidence got thrown in your face your only response is "I'm not wasting anytime with you"

"But the guy on a different team said something else". :oldlol:

You lose buddy.

https://c.tenor.com/7SLOHBr9uZYAAAAM/mike-tyson-uppercut.gif

Sorry sweety, but no. I've already seen the games, which isn't even the issue here. The problem is you took "usually" and thought it meant every single time. If you can't comprehend something so simple, then there's no pleasure even dunking on you anymore. It's like moving the rim down to 7' and posterizing you with a nerf ball. Like stealing candy from a baby.

[1987_Lakers]

Sorry sweety, but no. I've already seen the games, which isn't even the issue here. The problem is you took "usually" and thought it meant every single time. If you can't comprehend something so simple, then there's no pleasure even dunking on you anymore. It's like moving the rim down to 7' and posterizing you with a nerf ball. Like stealing candy from a baby.

Ron Harper covered Reggie Miller and Jordan moved over to defend Chris Mullin, keeping the Bulls star as fresh as possible on the offensive end.

It worked. Not only did the Pacers commit a season-high 26 turnovers, Jordan woke up after the break, scoring 25 points in the second half.



https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/60650047/you-aint-gotta-lie-craig.jpg

[theman93]

yea there are going be some iffy ones. You can find even worse by win shares however. I told you how the stat was calculated it's obviously garbage for evaluating individual defense. Feel free to feel the same dissecting rpm(though your case wont be as convincing)

I use the eye test to evaluate a defender. Advanced metrics are ancillary. The only reason I brought up DWS is because that's what I thought you were referring to.

We have 1987_Knight here who says there was nothing that stood out and said Kobe was All-Defense. He arrives at this conclusion because he's scouting basketball-reference.com in an effort to go by numbers. Yet the eye test says there are MANY attributes to Kobe's defensive game that stood out as All-Defense, which I gave a small break down of a few pages ago.

[1987_Lakers]

We have 1987_Knight here who says there was nothing that stood out and said Kobe was All-Defense. He arrives at this conclusion because he's scouting basketball-reference.com in an effort to go by numbers. Yet the eye test says there are MANY attributes to Kobe's defensive game that stood out as All-Defense, which I gave a small break down of a few pages ago.


I already stated why he didn't deserve those All-defensive teams (Lazy defender who took unnecessary gambles and usually coasted to conserve energy) and if you were actually around that time you would know Kobe's All-defensive teams were undeserving. I'm not saying anything controversial, I'm saying something that was a known fact back then by pretty much most NBA fans, maybe if you were around back then you would understand.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?287018-Kobe-Bryant-will-NOT-make-the-ALL-DEFENSIVE-TEAM-this-Year


Kobe should not have been on defensive teams for most of the last few seasons. Yes I know he can play D when he wants but for the most part he has been conserving energy on that side of the ball for offense.


he has been undeserving of it for the last 4 years


0% chance of him making it.



He certainly shouldn't have been 1st Team in 2011 and he shouldn't have made either team last year. But he managed to make the 2nd team last year. This is the year he falls off.


OP is not exactly making a bold statement. For those who think he will, you'll have to be very wrong...unless he literally turns around his defensive season.


He has been a great defender at times during his career, but he hasn't deserved an all-defensive first or second team since at least '09, and didn't necessarily deserve every selection he got even when he was younger, such as making the all-defensive team in '07. Out of the all-defensive selections he did receive, I think he deserved the first team selections in '00 and '08 and the second team selections in '00 and '02. A few other years he got first team, I think second team would have been more appropriate.

I'm not sure he makes either team this year with how bad the Lakers have been, and in particular, their defense. Although Kobe's individual play has been a big story and might be enough.


I dunno, the media seem to be ****ing retards so who knows if he will make it. Kobe is the most overrated defensive player of all time. He postures up on an opponent and everyone thinks he's this big shit defender...except for the fact that he over pressures his opponent almost every time and lets him get by him regularly. Kobe has gotten all these 1st team all defensive nods because he postures up and it seems like great defense. It's pathetic because he over pressures regular and lets his man get by him regularly. People will think he'lll actually be some great defender because of the awards when it's basically a joke to anyone who saw him play during his career. ugh

That last sentence ended up being so true. You just proved that your "eye test" is garbage when regarding Kobe :oldlol:

https://c.tenor.com/7SLOHBr9uZYAAAAM/mike-tyson-uppercut.gif

[RogueBorg]

There is no good way to measure defense...

If You Thought Playing NBA Defense Was Hard, Try Quantifying It
Nikola Jokic may be the MVP, but is he a good defender? The truth is, the numbers don’t really know. The analytics revolution has changed basketball, but everyone—armchair statheads, team quants, agents, general managers—still can’t quite figure out how to properly measure the defensive side of the ball.

https://www.theringer.com/nba/2021/5/11/22423517/nba-defense-analytics-nikola-jokic

[theman93]

I already stated why he didn't deserve those All-defensive teams (Lazy defender who took unnecessary gambles and usually coasted to conserve energy) and if you were actually around that time you would know Kobe's All-defensive teams were undeserving. I'm not saying anything controversial, I'm saying something that was a known fact back then by pretty much most NBA fans, maybe if you were around back then you would understand.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?287018-Kobe-Bryant-will-NOT-make-the-ALL-DEFENSIVE-TEAM-this-Year











https://c.tenor.com/7SLOHBr9uZYAAAAM/mike-tyson-uppercut.gif

1) You've already dogged ISH for being a bad board that doesn't know basketball. So bringing up an ISH thread to try and prove your point is hilarious.

2) I can pull multiple quotes from posts in that same thread from people who said Kobe was deserving. So that is a complete and total moot point.

3) Even if you want to criticize those aspects of Kobe's defense it doesn't take away from the fact that there were still aspects of Kobe's game that stuck out as All-Defensive (which you denied). I saw it, the voters saw it, and even people back then saw it.

[1987_Lakers]

2) I can pull multiple quotes from posts in that same thread from people who said Kobe was deserving. So that is a complete and total moot point..

You're clueless, 80-90% of those posts in that thread are posters shitting on his defense. :oldlol:

[theman93]

You're clueless, 80-90% of those posts in that thread are posters shitting on his defense. :oldlol:

And you've already stated ISH doesn't know anything about basketball. So your argument backfired. :lol

[1987_Lakers]

And you've already stated ISH doesn't know anything about basketball. So your argument backfired. :lol

And ISH was wayyyy better back then than it is now. There was trolling, but not even close to this level. There was actual basketball discussion more often back then.

You wouldn't know because you just joined. I was actually here back then.

[theman93]

And ISH was wayyyy better back then than it is now. There was trolling, but not even close to this level. There was actual basketball discussion more often back then.

You wouldn't know because you just joined. I was actually here back then.

"ISH doesn't know anything about basketball."

"Except when it fits my agenda."

- 1987_Knight

[1987_Lakers]

"ISH doesn't know anything about basketball."

"Except when it fits my agenda."

- 1987_Knight

Again, you have nothing. To think this board has always been this shitty is false. When I first joined it was NOTHING like it is today. You are fairly new to this board so you have no evidence of me saying what I just said is false. You have no argument to what I said because you weren't here.

I'm sorry I triggered you so much in this thread that you have resorted to giving me giving me nicknames. Next time come more prepared.

[theman93]

Again, you have nothing. To think this board has always been this shitty is false. When I first joined it was NOTHING like it is today. You are fairly new to this board so you have no evidence of me saying what I just said is false. You have no argument to what I said because you weren't here.

I'm sorry I triggered you so much in this thread that you have resorted to giving me giving me nicknames. Next time come more prepared.

Sure I do. This thread alone gives me ample evidence as to why I shouldn't take your word at blind faith. :lol

You bear the burden of proof, not me. So far all you have is: "I'm saying it so it must be true".

[1987_Lakers]

Sure I do. This thread alone gives me ample evidence as to why I shouldn't take your word at blind faith. :lol

You bear the burden of proof, not me. So far all you have is: "I'm saying it so it must be true".

Except, I'm not even saying "I say it so it must be true"

I've given you video evidence backing up my Ron Harper claims

And I've given you people's opinions on Kobe's defense back in the early 10's to back up my claims

And when I have given you those two resources to try to educate you, you responded with...

"I'm not wasting time with you"

AND

"But ISH is a garbage place, those opinions don't count" (disregarding the fact that the thread I posted was 10 years ago, when ISH was a different place)

You have nothing.

[theman93]

Except, I'm not even saying "I say it so it must be true"

This was regarding your claims about ISH of the past. Sorry 1987_Knight, I'm not blindly going by your word when you've given me ample evidence not to.


I've given you video evidence backing up my Ron Harper claims

And again, you never digested what I said. Usually =/= every single time.


And I've given you people's opinions on Kobe's defense back in the early 10's to back up my claims

And in the same thread you're using people's opinions to back up your claims, there are other people who hold the exact opposite opinion. So it's a moot point. The fact is Kobe was an All-Defensive player. Fact. Deal with it.


And when I have given you those two resources to try to educate you, you responded with...

"I'm not wasting time with you"

AND

"But ISH is a garbage place, those opinions don't count" (disregarding the fact that the thread I posted was 10 years ago, when ISH was a different place)

You have nothing.

I said I'm not wasting anymore time because I already explained it to you. It's like talking to a rock. /yawn

And again, I'm not going blindly off your word. You're the one who back peddled off your ISH claims when it no longer fit your agenda. How convenient :rolleyes:

https://c.tenor.com/DAqleKEe6_0AAAAC/back-pedal-bike.gif

[1987_Lakers]

https://c.tenor.com/DAqleKEe6_0AAAAC/back-pedal-bike.gif

The irony, this is you right here. :oldlol: