I never had to shit on Pippen in the Kobe vs MJ debates

[3ba11]

I only started shitting on Pippen in the Lebron/MJ debate because that's when the narrative began that the 90's Bulls were infact "stacked".

NO ONE said the bulls were stacked during the MJ/Kobe debate..

NO ONE sung pippen's praises or pretended 2nd scoring options didn't have to score and could just play defense.. That whole narrative was started by Klutch and picked up by nascent fans as Lebron's colluding plan to stack his resume began.

It's all a fraud.. No one thought the Bulls were "stacked" during the Kobe/MJ debate - that wasn't a "thing"...Kobe and MJ fans literally debated whose game was better - that's it - who was nicer - who had the better jumper, ballhandling and decision-making - those were the topics of conversation.

This idea that Kukoc, Kerr and Harper were infact stars and not low-producing role players that every team has - this narrative was started by Klutch and picked up by nascent fans.

Anyway, I'm not sure what else to say - it just hit me that I never had to shit on the Bulls' cast back in 2007 when I was arguing MJ over Kobe to my buddies at the bar after work.. I only have to shit on the cast now because the Klutch fraud and history revision requires it - they stacked the deck, so now they want people thinking that EVERYONE stacks the deck- but that's wrong - they're the only ones that did (and then Durant had to respond)

[Real Men Wear Green]

You shit on this forum every time you post.

[HoopsNY]

I only started shitting on Pippen in the Lebron/MJ debate because that's when the narrative began that the 90's Bulls were infact "stacked".

NO ONE said the bulls were stacked during the MJ/Kobe debate..

NO ONE sung pippen's praises or pretended 2nd scoring options didn't have to score and could just play defense.. That whole narrative was started by Klutch and picked up by nascent fans as Lebron's colluding plan to stack his resume began.

It's all a fraud.. No one thought the Bulls were "stacked" during the Kobe/MJ debate - that wasn't a "thing"...Kobe and MJ fans literally debated whose game was better - that's it - who was nicer - who had the better jumper, ballhandling and decision-making - those were the topics of conversation.

This idea that Kukoc, Kerr and Harper were infact stars and not low-producing role players that every team has - this narrative was started by Klutch and picked up by nascent fans.

Anyway, I'm not sure what else to say - it just hit me that I never had to shit on the Bulls' cast back in 2007 when I was arguing MJ over Kobe to my buddies at the bar after work.. I only have to shit on the cast now because the Klutch fraud and history revision requires it - they stacked the deck, so now they want people thinking that EVERYONE stacks the deck- but that's wrong - they're the only ones that did (and then Durant had to respond)

They were stacked. Deal with it.

[Johnny32]

pippen - all nba on both sides of the ball
grant - all nba defense
rodman - all nba defense/rebounding champ
kukoc - 6th man of the year
harper - averaged 20 ppg the season before going to chicago
kerr - all time 3pt percentage leader

duh bulls were stacked.

[Shogon]

You shit on this forum every time you post.

:roll:

[3ba11]

pippen - all nba on both sides of the ball
grant - all nba defense
rodman - all nba defense/rebounding champ
kukoc - 6th man of the year
harper - averaged 20 ppg the season before going to chicago
kerr - all time 3pt percentage leader

duh bulls were stacked.


Not a single go-to player on your list.. No elite scorers on your list

Only MJ lacked scoring help and had to win with nothing (rebounding and hustle guys that every team has)

Everyone else in history needed juggernaut scoring help and all-time elite scorers as teammates.. except the goat.. Only the goat won multiple chips without a go-to teammate or elite scorer as teammate

[Johnny32]

Not a single go-to player on your list.. No elite scorers on your list

Only MJ lacked scoring help and had to win with nothing (rebounding and hustle guys that every team has)

Everyone else in history needed juggernaut scoring help and all-time elite scorers as teammates.. except the goat.. Only the goat won multiple chips without a go-to teammate or elite scorer as teammate

91 finals

pip - 21 ppg (more than anyone on the lakers roster)

92 finals

pip - 21 ppg
porter - 16 ppg

93 finals

pip - 21 ppg
kj - 17 ppg

96 finals

pip - 16 ppg
gp - 18 ppg

97 finals

pip - 20 ppg
stockton - 15 ppg

98 finals

pip - 16 ppg
hornacek - 11 ppg

get shit on you autistic freak.

[Shogon]

Not a single go-to player on your list.. No elite scorers on your list

Only MJ lacked scoring help and had to win with nothing (rebounding and hustle guys that every team has)

Everyone else in history needed juggernaut scoring help and all-time elite scorers as teammates.. except the goat.. Only the goat won multiple chips without a go-to teammate or elite scorer as teammate

You exposed yourself. Your simplistic brain only values individual scoring. Congratulations. You meet the criteria to match up with 90% of casual fans!

Rodman and Pippen are both somehow mediocre or maybe just a 'little bit better than ok' because.... they're not elite scorers. They definitely weren't true stars. Just kind of ok. Kyrie Irving, for instance? Clearly better than both Pippen and Rodman at winning basketball games.

Got it.

You don't understand basketball. Trolling or not, you should stop posting. You're a waste.

Your posts are literal wastes of the planet's resources. Waste of electricity and producing more and more co2, only to spread your idiocy.

[HoopsNY]

You have a great two way player in Pippen, who at the very least was a top 10 player, coupled with the greatest player of all time, elite defensive/rebounding help, and sharp shooters. Not to mention, you have arguably a top 3 coach of all-time.

But this isn't a stacked team. Nope; getting 20/8/7/2 on 48-50% sucks. Getting All-Defensive performances from your PF who could give you 20 rebounds or 16/10 is meaningless. Having a Sixth Man of the Year doesn't help at all. Your sharpshooters shooting near 50% from 3 is irrelevant, and sometimes leading the league in 3 point shooting. Potentially the greatest coach of all time - in fact - was the worst coach ever. Who knew?

[SouBeachTalents]

You have a great two way player in Pippen, who at the very least was a top 10 player, coupled with the greatest player of all time, elite defensive/rebounding help, and sharp shooters. Not to mention, you have arguably a top 3 coach of all-time.

But this isn't a stacked team. Nope; getting 20/8/7/2 on 48-50% sucks. Getting All-Defensive performances from your PF who could give you 20 rebounds or 16/10 is meaningless. Having a Sixth Man of the Year doesn't help at all. Your sharpshooters shooting near 50% from 3 is irrelevant, and sometime leading the league in 3 point shooting. Potentially the greatest coach of all time - in fact - was the worst coach ever. Who knew?
The team lost the GOAT in his prime a month before the season started and still won 55 games, they were on pace for 60 in the games Pippen played. That should’ve shut down the “they weren’t stacked” talking points permanently :lol

[SouBeachTalents]

You exposed yourself. Your simplistic brain only values individual scoring. Congratulations. You meet the criteria to match up with 90% of casual fans!

Rodman and Pippen are both somehow mediocre or maybe just a 'little bit better than ok' because.... they're not elite scorers. They definitely weren't true stars. Just kind of ok. Kyrie Irving, for instance? Clearly better than both Pippen and Rodman at winning basketball games.

Got it.

You don't understand basketball. Trolling or not, you should stop posting. You're a waste.

Your posts are literal wastes of the planet's resources. Waste of electricity and producing more and more co2, only to spread your idiocy.
Kevin Martin > Pippen
Shareef Abdur-Rahim > Rodman

[ImKobe]

You have a great two way player in Pippen, who at the very least was a top 10 player, coupled with the greatest player of all time, elite defensive/rebounding help, and sharp shooters. Not to mention, you have arguably a top 3 coach of all-time.

But this isn't a stacked team. Nope; getting 20/8/7/2 on 48-50% sucks. Getting All-Defensive performances from your PF who could give you 20 rebounds or 16/10 is meaningless. Having a Sixth Man of the Year doesn't help at all. Your sharpshooters shooting near 50% from 3 is irrelevant, and sometimes leading the league in 3 point shooting. Potentially the greatest coach of all time - in fact - was the worst coach ever. Who knew?

Pippen 96-98 Playoffs

18/7/5 40.8%FG/50.0%TS

Even in '93 Playoffs he averaged 19.5 ppg on 50.4%TS.. y'all acting like he was an elite offensive player.. Bulls won plenty of rings when he had sub-par offensive performances throughout the Playoffs.

Bulls were also 10-17th in the league in 3s made from 96-98 and were below-average during the 1st 3-Peat.

Pop is the greatest coach ever, Phil is arguably 2nd.

[Johnny32]

Pippen 96-98 Playoffs

18/7/5 40.8%FG/50.0%TS

Even in '93 Playoffs he averaged 19.5 ppg on 50.4%TS.. y'all acting like he was an elite offensive player.. Bulls won plenty of rings when he had sub-par offensive performances throughout the Playoffs.

Bulls were also 10-17th in the league in 3s made from 96-98 and were below-average during the 1st 3-Peat.

Pop is the greatest coach ever, Phil is arguably 2nd.

hurrr, he scored more than the bulls opponents second option in every finals besides 96.

[3ba11]

91 finals

pip - 21 ppg (more than anyone on the lakers roster)

92 finals

pip - 21 ppg
porter - 16 ppg

93 finals

pip - 21 ppg
kj - 17 ppg

96 finals

pip - 16 ppg
gp - 18 ppg

97 finals

pip - 20 ppg
stockton - 15 ppg

98 finals

pip - 16 ppg
hornacek - 11 ppg

get shit on you autistic freak.


97' Finals

Pippen......... 20 and 3 apg.. 42%
Stockton..... 15 and 9 apg.. 50%


93' Finals

Pippen.... 15.6 gamescore... 21 on 46% ts
Majere.... 17.0 gamescore... 17 on 59% ts


Pippen's efficiency meant that he wet the bed and was outplayed by Stockton, Payton and Majerle..

But the larger point is that Pippen was the only sidekick that wasn't a threat for elite production - the worst sidekick that MJ faced (Terry Porter) played better than Pippen ever did in the 92' Playoffs or 90' Playoffs.

The Bulls' cast was outscored in every Finals and series, while everyone else in history had the higher-producing cast in numerous Finals and series - only MJ had the lower-producing cast for every series of his career.

[Johnny32]

Not a single go-to player on your list.. No elite scorers on your list

Only MJ lacked scoring help and had to win with nothing (rebounding and hustle guys that every team has)

Everyone else in history needed juggernaut scoring help and all-time elite scorers as teammates.. except the goat.. Only the goat won multiple chips without a go-to teammate or elite scorer as teammate

keep backtracking, tard

[ImKobe]

hurrr, he scored more than the bulls opponents second option in every finals besides 96.


'91 Finals - 20.8 ppg 52.7%TS
'92 Finals - 20.8 ppg 56.1%TS
'93 Finals - 21.2 ppg 45.9%TS
'96 Finals - 15.7 ppg 42.9%TS
'97 Finals - 20.0 ppg 54.1%TS
'98 Finals - 15.7 ppg 50.2%TS

3 decent series and 3 stinkers. Bran & Kobe had much better 2nd options in most of their Finals if we're being honest. Bran & KB had some series where they didn't have a great 2nd option either, but they had better perimeter shooting around them.

[Johnny32]

'91 Finals - 20.8 ppg 52.7%TS
'92 Finals - 20.8 ppg 56.1%TS
'93 Finals - 21.2 ppg 45.9%TS
'96 Finals - 15.7 ppg 42.9%TS
'97 Finals - 20.0 ppg 54.1%TS
'98 Finals - 15.7 ppg 50.2%TS

3 decent series and 3 stinkers. Bran & Kobe had much better 2nd options in most of their Finals if we're being honest.

you're comparing second option production from different eras moron. compare pip's to the bulls opponents second options. lol they're so simple it's embarrassing.

[SouBeachTalents]

'91 Finals - 20.8 ppg 52.7%TS
'92 Finals - 20.8 ppg 56.1%TS
'93 Finals - 21.2 ppg 45.9%TS
'96 Finals - 15.7 ppg 42.9%TS
'97 Finals - 20.0 ppg 54.1%TS
'98 Finals - 15.7 ppg 50.2%TS

3 decent series and 3 stinkers. Bran & Kobe had much better 2nd options in most of their Finals if we're being honest. Bran & KB had some series where they didn't have a great 2nd option either, but they had better perimeter shooting around them.
Why don’t you do the opposing teams 2nd options in those series.

And seriously, is defense or any other aspect of basketball just not considered when evaluating basketball players :lol

[3ba11]

you're comparing second option production from different eras moron. compare pip's to the bulls opponents second options. lol they're so simple it's embarrassing.


https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg


.
95' Horry...... 19.0 gamescore... 18/10/4/3/2 on 57 TS

92' Pippen.... 18.1 gamescore.... 21/8/7/2/1 on 56 TS
91' Pippen.... 17.5 gamescore.... 21/9/7/2/1 on 53 TS
93' Pippen.... 15.6 gamescore.... 20/9/8/2/1 on 46 TS
97' Pippen.... 15.1 gamescore.... 20/8/3/2/2 on 54 TS
96' Pippen.... 13.4 gamescore.... 16/7/5/2/1 on 43 TS
98' Pippen.... 13.0 gamescore.... 16/8/5/2/1 on 50 TS




you're comparing second option production from different eras moron. compare pip's to the bulls opponents second options. lol they're so simple it's embarrassing.


Pippen and Miller faced the same playoff opponent 6 times:



R Miller vs. 90' Pistons..... 20.7 on 57%... 17.9 usage
Pippen. vs. 90' Pistons..... 16.6 on 43%... 20.4 usage

R Miller vs 93' Knicks....... 31.5 on 53%... 27.5 usage
Pippen. vs 93' Knicks....... 22.5 on 51%... 28.4 usage

R Miller vs 94' Knicks....... 24.7 on 44%... 30.1 usage
Pippen. vs 94' Knicks....... 21.7 on 41%... 31.7 usage

R Miller vs 95' Magic........ 25.9 on 52%... 26.2 usage
Pippen. vs 95' Magic........ 19.0 on 42%... 23.1 usage

R Miller vs 00' Lakers....... 24.3 on 41%... 25.0 usage
Pippen. vs 00' Lakers....... 15.1 on 43%... 19.5 usage
Pippen. vs 99' Lakers....... 18.3 on 33%... 23.5 usage

R Miller 98' ECF............... 17.4 on 41%... 21.1 usage
Pippen. 98' ECF............... 16.6 on 39%... 26.0 usage




you're comparing second option production from different eras moron. compare pip's to the bulls opponents second options. lol they're so simple it's embarrassing.


98' ECF

Pippen.... 16.6 on 39%
Smits...... 16.2 on 55%


Now who wet the bed - Smits or Pippen?

Pippen is the only sidekick that wasn't a go-to player - the only system player sidekick - the timeline of his career shows he was propped up by the triangle and dynasty chemistry, otherwise, he was a 14 ppg dunker that couldn't score (89', 99').

[Johnny32]

lol look at them desperately flailing all over the place. anything but the obvious...comparing jordone's second option help to his opponents lol.

[Johnny32]

91 finals

pip - 21 ppg (more than anyone on the lakers roster)

92 finals

pip - 21 ppg
porter - 16 ppg

93 finals

pip - 21 ppg
kj - 17 ppg

96 finals

pip - 16 ppg
gp - 18 ppg

97 finals

pip - 20 ppg
stockton - 15 ppg

98 finals

pip - 16 ppg
hornacek - 11 ppg

get shit on you autistic freak.

oh wait. i already did the comparison for them.

it hurts so good.

[3ba11]

lol look at them desperately flailing all over the place. anything but the obvious...comparing jordone's second option help to his opponents lol.


Pippen was the only 90's sidekick that never achieved elite points, rebounds or assists in any series - everyone was a threat for elite production except Pippen and Pippen had the worst-ever efficiency

Pippen had the lowest peak capability and worst-ever efficiency, while also being the only system player sidekick (nothing outside the triangle and dynasty chemistry)

[tpols]

91 finals

pip - 21 ppg (more than anyone on the lakers roster)

92 finals

pip - 21 ppg
porter - 16 ppg

93 finals

pip - 21 ppg
kj - 17 ppg

96 finals

pip - 16 ppg
gp - 18 ppg

97 finals

pip - 20 ppg
stockton - 15 ppg

98 finals

pip - 16 ppg
hornacek - 11 ppg

get shit on you autistic freak.

Way to not include efficiency. :oldlol: Or any of the other earlier series where guys like X-man and Rik Smits clearly outplayed him.

I know its a tough concept, but the rate at which you produce per possession matters. Pippen for most of his playoff career was a teeny bop scorer on Iverson efficiency. That's ass. But the media has him ranked #21 all time which is a joke. That's why he's getting shitted on.

[ImKobe]

you're comparing second option production from different eras moron. compare pip's to the bulls opponents second options. lol they're so simple it's embarrassing.

Not really. Kobe had Shaq just a few years after the Bulls run and the defense was as tough as ever in the early '00s. Pippen also left the Bulls in '98 and got bounced in the 1st round with Chuck & Hakeem while barely shooting 30%.

Was Pippen the best 2nd scoring option of his era? Of course not. So why do we have to pretend that MJ had more help than any player in NBA history? Is that the narrative we need to spew to make Lebron's 4/10 finals record look respectable?

[1987_Lakers]

'91 Finals - 20.8 ppg 52.7%TS
'92 Finals - 20.8 ppg 56.1%TS
'93 Finals - 21.2 ppg 45.9%TS
'96 Finals - 15.7 ppg 42.9%TS
'97 Finals - 20.0 ppg 54.1%TS
'98 Finals - 15.7 ppg 50.2%TS

3 decent series and 3 stinkers. Bran & Kobe had much better 2nd options in most of their Finals if we're being honest. Bran & KB had some series where they didn't have a great 2nd option either, but they had better perimeter shooting around them.

Why the **** do you always ignore defense when talking Pippen, but ALWAYS bring up defense when AD is discussed? :oldlol:

[ImKobe]

https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg


.
95' Horry...... 19.0 gamescore... 18/10/4/3/2 on 57 TS

92' Pippen.... 18.1 gamescore.... 21/8/7/2/1 on 56 TS
91' Pippen.... 17.5 gamescore.... 21/9/7/2/1 on 53 TS
93' Pippen.... 15.6 gamescore.... 20/9/8/2/1 on 46 TS
97' Pippen.... 15.1 gamescore.... 20/8/3/2/2 on 54 TS
96' Pippen.... 13.4 gamescore.... 16/7/5/2/1 on 43 TS
98' Pippen.... 13.0 gamescore.... 16/8/5/2/1 on 50 TS






Pippen and Miller faced the same playoff opponent 6 times:



R Miller vs. 90' Pistons..... 20.7 on 57%... 17.9 usage
Pippen. vs. 90' Pistons..... 16.6 on 43%... 20.4 usage

R Miller vs 93' Knicks....... 31.5 on 53%... 27.5 usage
Pippen. vs 93' Knicks....... 22.5 on 51%... 28.4 usage

R Miller vs 94' Knicks....... 24.7 on 44%... 30.1 usage
Pippen. vs 94' Knicks....... 21.7 on 41%... 31.7 usage

R Miller vs 95' Magic........ 25.9 on 52%... 26.2 usage
Pippen. vs 95' Magic........ 19.0 on 42%... 23.1 usage

R Miller vs 00' Lakers....... 24.3 on 41%... 25.0 usage
Pippen. vs 00' Lakers....... 15.1 on 43%... 19.5 usage
Pippen. vs 99' Lakers....... 18.3 on 33%... 23.5 usage

R Miller 98' ECF............... 17.4 on 41%... 21.1 usage
Pippen. 98' ECF............... 16.6 on 39%... 26.0 usage






98' ECF

Pippen.... 16.6 on 39%
Smits...... 16.2 on 55%


Now who wet the bed - Smits or Pippen?

Pippen is the only sidekick that wasn't a go-to player - the only system player sidekick - the timeline of his career shows he was propped up by the triangle and dynasty chemistry, otherwise, he was a 14 ppg dunker that couldn't score (89', 99').

Close the ****ing thread. We're done here. Pippen was a mediocre 2nd option and all of the data backs that up. I thought we already moved past this.

[Johnny32]

Not really. Kobe had Shaq just a few years after the Bulls run and the defense was as tough as ever in the early '00s. Pippen also left the Bulls in '98 and got bounced in the 1st round with Chuck & Hakeem while barely shooting 30%.

Was Pippen the best 2nd scoring option of his era? Of course not. So why do we have to pretend that MJ had more help than any player in NBA history? Is that the narrative we need to spew to make Lebron's 4/10 finals record look respectable?

pippen was the best second option of the 90s. this isn't up for debate despite how desperate you tards are to convince someone, anyone, otherwise.

[Johnny32]

Close the ****ing thread. We're done here. Pippen was a mediocre 2nd option and all of the data backs that up. I thought we already moved past this.

hurrr, ClOsE dUh ThReAd, durrr. we just compared pippen to every second option besides the only ones that matter...the bulls opponents.

[tpols]

Why the **** do you always ignore defense when talking Pippen, but ALWAYS bring up defense when AD is discussed? :oldlol:

AD led the playoffs in scoring en route to a title on a preposterous 130 ORTG. You can't ever put him and Pippen even in the same breath lol.

[ImKobe]

Why the **** do you always ignore defense when talking Pippen, but ALWAYS bring up defense when AD is discussed? :oldlol:

AD averaged 28/10/4 on 66.5%TS ~30 PER and played elite defense for the title run, Pippen wasn't on that level. MJ never had a title run where you could argue that any of his teammates were even close to matching his production for the whole run, while Bran got outplayed by Wade & lost in '11 and had AD match his production in 2020 while also carrying the Lakers' defense and being the best player through the first 3 rounds.

What MJ did will never be matched again. 2x three-peats with the same mediocre 2nd scoring option.

[Johnny32]

fun fact - legoat had a better defensive rating than ad in the 20 playoffs and equal defensive win shares.

[1987_Lakers]

AD led the playoffs in scoring en route to a title on a preposterous 130 ORTG. You can't ever put him and Pippen even in the same breath lol.

Yet, Kareem led the Lakers in scoring and that didn't stop you from calling him a second option in '85. And I'm not even discuss your weird obsession with ORTG for a player, if we go by that then Drexler > Hakeem in '95 postseason.

Pippen actually led his team to 55 wins, something AD never did.

[ImKobe]

pippen was the best second option of the 90s. this isn't up for debate despite how desperate you tards are to convince someone, anyone, otherwise.

He could barely average 20 while shooting ~50%TS in these runs man.. Stop lying to yourself.

[1987_Lakers]

AD averaged 28/10/4 on 66.5%TS ~30 PER

He was pretty much putting up those same numbers with the Pelicans and was constantly missing the playoffs. :lol

[tpols]

AD averaged 28/10/4 on 66.5%TS ~30 PER and played elite defense for the title run, Pippen wasn't on that level. MJ never had a title run where you could argue that any of his teammates were even close to matching his production for the whole run, while Bran got outplayed by Wade & lost in '11 and had AD match his production in 2020 while also carrying the Lakers' defense and being the best player through the first 3 rounds.

What MJ did will never be matched again. 2x three-peats with the same mediocre 2nd scoring option.

Its funny how this is all being exposed. Imagine if AD was scoring 17-18 ppg on sub 50 TS... Everybody would say he's a bum. Lakers would NOT have won with that, even including his great defense. But Pippen gets a pass for it and is ranked higher all time than players that were clearly way better than him.

[tpols]

He was pretty much putting up those same numbers with the Pelicans and was constantly missing the playoffs. :lol

AD averaged 30+/10+ on elite efficiency in the playoffs with the shitty pelicans. That's proof of his GOAT talent.

[Johnny32]

He could barely average 20 while shooting ~50%TS in these runs man.. Stop lying to yourself.

91 finals

pip - 21 ppg (more than anyone on the lakers roster)

92 finals

pip - 21 ppg
porter - 16 ppg

93 finals

pip - 21 ppg
kj - 17 ppg

96 finals

pip - 16 ppg
gp - 18 ppg

97 finals

pip - 20 ppg
stockton - 15 ppg

98 finals

pip - 16 ppg
hornacek - 11 ppg

cry moar, fatboy.

[Johnny32]

Its funny how this is all being exposed. Imagine if AD was scoring 17-18 ppg on sub 50 TS... Everybody would say he's a bum. Lakers would NOT have won with that, even including his great defense. But Pippen gets a pass for it and is ranked higher all time than players that were clearly way better than him.

hurrr, teams aren't scoring 80 ppg in the playoffs in the current nba, eltardo.

[ImKobe]

He was pretty much putting up those same numbers with the Pelicans and was constantly missing the playoffs. :lol

Ok? And Chris Paul won 1 Playoff series in 6 years in NO as well.

[Hey Yo]

https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg


.
95' Horry...... 19.0 gamescore... 18/10/4/3/2 on 57 TS

92' Pippen.... 18.1 gamescore.... 21/8/7/2/1 on 56 TS
91' Pippen.... 17.5 gamescore.... 21/9/7/2/1 on 53 TS
93' Pippen.... 15.6 gamescore.... 20/9/8/2/1 on 46 TS
97' Pippen.... 15.1 gamescore.... 20/8/3/2/2 on 54 TS
96' Pippen.... 13.4 gamescore.... 16/7/5/2/1 on 43 TS
98' Pippen.... 13.0 gamescore.... 16/8/5/2/1 on 50 TS
2014 Wade.... 7.9 gamescore 15ppg 50ts%

Worst 2nd option in a Finals.

[Gudo]

Yet, Kareem led the Lakers in scoring and that didn't stop you from calling him a second option in '85. And I'm not even discuss your weird obsession with ORTG for a player, if we go by that then Drexler > Hakeem in '95 postseason.

Pippen actually led his team to 55 wins, something AD never did.

Led HIS team? Lol, yeah right. That was a solid team without their best player but had everything else intact that Pippen inherited for a short time.

[Johnny32]

Led HIS team? Lol, yeah right. That was a solid team without their best player but had everything else intact that Pippen inherited for a short time.

got a point, window licker? the 94 bulls were clearly pip's team. the thing they missed most about mj was the officials. they never get robbed vs the nyk with the league's poster boy on the roster.

[ImKobe]

2014 Wade.... 7.9 gamescore 15ppg 50ts%

Worst 2nd option in a Finals.

Pippen averaged 15.7 ppg on 34.3%FG/42.9%TS in the '96 Finals and they still won.

[ShawkFactory]

Pippen averaged 15.7 ppg on 34.3%FG/42.9%TS in the '96 Finals and they still won.

The Heat didn't have Rodman to clean up the the misses.

Literally 7 offensive boards a game.

[Johnny32]

The Heat didn't have Rodman to clean up the the misses.

Literally 7 offensive boards a game.

that's crazy. mj was also terrible efficiency wise in that series. 90s basketball at it's finest.

[Hey Yo]

Pippen averaged 15.7 ppg on 34.3%FG/42.9%TS in the '96 Finals and they still won.

13.4 gamescore >>>>> 7.9

[Airupthere]

The Heat didn't have Rodman to clean up the the misses.

Literally 7 offensive boards a game.

96 bulls was a solid roster. Good thing they did 72 wins with a chip. How did the super stacked Heat do in 2011?

[ShawkFactory]

96 bulls was a solid roster. Good thing they did 72 wins with a chip. How did the super stacked Heat do in 2011?

No shit.

[Airupthere]

No shit.

No shit. and they delivered.

[Gudo]

Kobetards never latched on to Pippen as much as branstans do. That I agree with.

[Johnny32]

i wonder what happens in the 96 finals if gp is healthy?

Payton did not guard Jordan over the first three games of the series due to a calf injury. As he was still recovering from the tear, head coach George Karl decided to allow Payton to focus his energy on offense and not guard the best player in the world.

The Bulls went up 3-0. Jordan was averaging 31.0 points and 5.0 assists on 46% shooting from the field and 50% from deep.

Karl flipped the playbook, making Payton the primary defender of Jordan.

Jordan’s averages dropped to 23.7 points, 3.3 assists and 36.7% shooting from the field and only made one more 3-pointer in the series.

[1987_Lakers]

Kobetards never latched on to Pippen as much as branstans do. That I agree with.

Look who made this thread, he talks about Pippen more than anyone else on the site combined.

[Gudo]

Look who made this thread, he talks about Pippen more than anyone else on the site combined.

I don't disagree with that. But 3ball is an entity of his own and we should know this by now.

[3ba11]

91 finals

pip - 21 ppg (more than anyone on the lakers roster)

92 finals

pip - 21 ppg
porter - 16 ppg

93 finals

pip - 21 ppg
kj - 17 ppg

96 finals

pip - 16 ppg
gp - 18 ppg

97 finals

pip - 20 ppg
stockton - 15 ppg

98 finals

pip - 16 ppg
hornacek - 11 ppg

get shit on you autistic freak.


^^^ all those 2nd options abnormally-underperformed against the Bulls but otherwise achieved dominant performance for those playoff runs or others that was better than Pippen ever played.

The worst sidekick that Jordan faced in the Finals was Terry Porter, who was Damian Lillard in the 90' and 92' Playoffs - far better than Pippen ever played - he simply got locked down against MJ and the Bulls

Every opposing sidekick was a threat for elite production and therefore required defensive attention, while Pippen was already contained by low peak capability (system player) and forced MJ to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load).

More importantly, every Finals opponent except for the Jazz was a mini-big 4 with 4 scoring options - the Lakers and Suns had 4 guys average 17+ in the Finals, while the Sonics and Blazers had 3 guys with 16+ (Pippen's career average).

The Bulls were the only team with 2 scoring options, so Pippen didn't have to share touches with 3rd and 4th scoring options and it showed in his efficiency - he couldn't handle a 2nd option load and wasn't a primary option outside the triangle or the dynasty chemistry of those Bulls.

Ultimately, Pippen shot 46% true shooting in the 93' Finals, so Majerle had higher gamescore along with 96' Payton, while Stockton's goat playmaking responsibility, efficiency, and also MJ-level scoring in the clutch (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?503558-Secondary-Closers-on-Playoff-Teams&p=14572540&viewfull=1#post14572540) destroyed Pippen in 97'.

I think the lesson is that jordan's TEAMS lacked scoring help, aka Pippen gets 16.8 in the 98' Playoffs, and MJ must double that at 32.4 because no one else is a scoring option (including a transition & system player Pippen)

[Johnny32]

it's funny you think anything you type matters.

facts and stats > desperate fat kid excuses

[GimmeThat]

I only started shitting on Pippen in the Lebron/MJ debate because that's when the narrative began that the 90's Bulls were infact "stacked".

NO ONE said the bulls were stacked during the MJ/Kobe debate..

NO ONE sung pippen's praises or pretended 2nd scoring options didn't have to score and could just play defense.. That whole narrative was started by Klutch and picked up by nascent fans as Lebron's colluding plan to stack his resume began.

It's all a fraud.. No one thought the Bulls were "stacked" during the Kobe/MJ debate - that wasn't a "thing"...Kobe and MJ fans literally debated whose game was better - that's it - who was nicer - who had the better jumper, ballhandling and decision-making - those were the topics of conversation.

This idea that Kukoc, Kerr and Harper were infact stars and not low-producing role players that every team has - this narrative was started by Klutch and picked up by nascent fans.

Anyway, I'm not sure what else to say - it just hit me that I never had to shit on the Bulls' cast back in 2007 when I was arguing MJ over Kobe to my buddies at the bar after work.. I only have to shit on the cast now because the Klutch fraud and history revision requires it - they stacked the deck, so now they want people thinking that EVERYONE stacks the deck- but that's wrong - they're the only ones that did (and then Durant had to respond)

because league expansion math is too complicated for you

[Phoenix]

Kevin Martin > Pippen
Shareef Abdur-Rahim > Rodman

05 Hughes.

[Phoenix]

AD led the playoffs in scoring en route to a title on a preposterous 130 ORTG. Y

Is that above 'scintillating'?

[TheGoatest]

So you're admit that you're "shitting" on The Great Scott Pippen.
Way to expose yourself. :roll: Now all you have to do is admit that you're eating jordon's shit and your therapy will be complete. :roll:

[AirBonner]

You didn’t have to shit on Pippen because Kobe WAS Pippen

[Vino24]

You didn’t have to shit on Pippen because Kobe WAS Pippen

https://media4.giphy.com/media/QWw4hc5gTnJhY0BUI3/200.gif

[Axe]

Scottie pippen was much more coachable than your true hero kobe bryant ever was, op.

[ImKobe]

You didn’t have to shit on Pippen because Kobe WAS Pippen

Except Kobe outplayed & beat Pippen 4x in the POs.

[1987_Lakers]

Except Kobe outplayed & beat Pippen 4x in the POs.

He's not wrong, he was a sidekick to Shaq.

[HoopsNY]

Pippen 96-98 Playoffs

18/7/5 40.8%FG/50.0%TS

Even in '93 Playoffs he averaged 19.5 ppg on 50.4%TS.. y'all acting like he was an elite offensive player.. Bulls won plenty of rings when he had sub-par offensive performances throughout the Playoffs.

Bulls were also 10-17th in the league in 3s made from 96-98 and were below-average during the 1st 3-Peat.

Pop is the greatest coach ever, Phil is arguably 2nd.

Yea but we're not isolating 1996 and 1998. Pippen played well in 1997 and extremely well defensively. He was also injured in both 1996 and 1998, so that factors into it. Also, you can't just delete the regular season as if it never happened.

I agree that you can probably swap him for a less talented player and MJ probably still leads them to the finals and six titles. But the premise still remains the same; by and large, Chicago was stacked in the 90s.

[Baller789]

Yea but we're not isolating 1996 and 1998. Pippen played well in 1997 and extremely well defensively. He was also injured in both 1996 and 1998, so that factors into it. Also, you can't just delete the regular season as if it never happened.

I agree that you can probably swap him for a less talented player and MJ probably still leads them to the finals and six titles. But the premise still remains the same; by and large, Chicago was stacked in the 90s.

To be fair, which 3 peating team in history wasn't considered stacked?

And most of them still aren't as stacked as some of the supposed underachieving super teams.

[GimmeThat]

And most of them still aren't as stacked as some of the supposed underachieving super teams.

pretty much summarizes how players don't make it into the Hall of Fame

[97 bulls]

Yea but we're not isolating 1996 and 1998. Pippen played well in 1997 and extremely well defensively. He was also injured in both 1996 and 1998, so that factors into it. Also, you can't just delete the regular season as if it never happened.

I agree that you can probably swap him for a less talented player and MJ probably still leads them to the finals and six titles. But the premise still remains the same; by and large, Chicago was stacked in the 90s.

And you can't just delete the defensive side of the ball. Pippen led thr playoffs in defensive rating in 91 and 96. His defense wreaked havoc on the Pacers and Jazz in 98.

[97 bulls]

Id like to ask 3ball a question. When discussing basketball, scoring or results? Which is more important?

[97 bulls]

To be fair, which 3 peating team in history wasn't considered stacked?

And most of them still aren't as stacked as some of the supposed underachieving super teams.

It makes no sense. These clowns that say the 90s Bulls weren't stacked and had nothing but MJ, will then turn around and say the Bulls should've won a championship in 94 without MJ. And what worse, they treat it like an utter failure.

[Baller789]

It makes no sense. These clowns that say the 90s Bulls weren't stacked and had nothing but MJ, will then turn around and say the Bulls should've won a championship in 94 without MJ. And what worse, they treat it like an utter failure.

The Bulls organically grew into being stacked. Which is perfectly acceptable. They were stacked as team, not necessarily on talent. There were teams more talented than the Bulls individually.

They weren't the usual Miami Heatles, KD Nets or Big 3 Boston that were assembled thru collusions or instant trades. Which usually results into an unbalanced team ergo failure.

Whos saying they should have won in 94?

[HoopsNY]

To be fair, which 3 peating team in history wasn't considered stacked?

And most of them still aren't as stacked as some of the supposed underachieving super teams.

You're not wrong. A lot of teams, at least in individual years, were stacked during the 90s. The Heat, Sonics, Rockets, Suns, Lakers, and Magic immediately come to mind. But that doesn't mean Chicago wasn't stacked. They were.

[97 bulls]

The Bulls organically grew into being stacked. Which is perfectly acceptable. They were stacked as team, not necessarily on talent. There were teams more talented than the Bulls individually.
How do you measure what a talented player is? The Bulls were one of the most talented teams in history.


They weren't the usual Miami Heatles, KD Nets or Big 3 Boston that were assembled thru collusions or instant trades. Which usually results into an unbalanced team ergo failure.
I agree


Whos saying they should have won in 94?
Pippen haters

[HoopsNY]

And you can't just delete the defensive side of the ball. Pippen led thr playoffs in defensive rating in 91 and 96. His defense wreaked havoc on the Pacers and Jazz in 98.

Yea, though one could argue those were individual series that don't speak for the entire body of work. While he was great defensively in those series, he was also a liability in other series like in the finals in '96, as an example.

[GimmeThat]

The Bulls were one of the most talented teams in history.


somehow when it's the Bulls, it's a team, not a franchise

if unbalanced team ergo failure means having someone dumber than you to be your boss, I too agree

[Full Court]

Michael Jordan is the GOAT.

The Bulls were stacked. As is every champion team, and especially every dynasty. It's a team sport.

Scottie Pippen was a great player.

Even though the Bulls were stacked, what makes them special is that they didn't become stacked by collusion and team-hopping. Jordan and Jackson built the team from the ground up and developed it into a stacked team.

We should all be able to acknowledge the greatness of the team. After all, it's a team sport. It doesn't take away from Jordan's greatness at all.

A couple of insecure Bronies trying to inflate Pippen's accomplishments doesn't require someone to crap on Pippen. Nobody takes them seriously anyway. Pippen and Jordan made the best duo of all time.

[theman93]

Michael Jordan is the GOAT.

The Bulls were stacked. As is every champion team, and especially every dynasty. It's a team sport.

Scottie Pippen was a great player.

Even though the Bulls were stacked, what makes them special is that they didn't become stacked by collusion and team-hopping. Jordan and Jackson built the team from the ground up and developed it into a stacked team.

We should all be able to acknowledge the greatness of the team. After all, it's a team sport. It doesn't take away from Jordan's greatness at all.

A couple of insecure Bronies trying to inflate Pippen's accomplishments doesn't require someone to crap on Pippen. Nobody takes them seriously anyway. Pippen and Jordan made the best duo of all time.

:cheers:

[HoopsNY]

Michael Jordan is the GOAT.

The Bulls were stacked. As is every champion team, and especially every dynasty. It's a team sport.

Scottie Pippen was a great player.

Even though the Bulls were stacked, what makes them special is that they didn't become stacked by collusion and team-hopping. Jordan and Jackson built the team from the ground up and developed it into a stacked team.

We should all be able to acknowledge the greatness of the team. After all, it's a team sport. It doesn't take away from Jordan's greatness at all.

A couple of insecure Bronies trying to inflate Pippen's accomplishments doesn't require someone to crap on Pippen. Nobody takes them seriously anyway. Pippen and Jordan made the best duo of all time.

Only I don't think Bran stans are inflating Pippen's accomplishments, or at the very least, his contributions. This was standard during the 90s and I only saw a revisionist diminishing of Pippen's contributions during Kobe's time.

[3ba11]

Michael Jordan is the GOAT.

The Bulls were stacked. As is every champion team, and especially every dynasty. It's a team sport.

Scottie Pippen was a great player.

Even though the Bulls were stacked, what makes them special is that they didn't become stacked by collusion and team-hopping. Jordan and Jackson built the team from the ground up and developed it into a stacked team.

We should all be able to acknowledge the greatness of the team. After all, it's a team sport. It doesn't take away from Jordan's greatness at all.

A couple of insecure Bronies trying to inflate Pippen's accomplishments doesn't require someone to crap on Pippen. Nobody takes them seriously anyway. Pippen and Jordan made the best duo of all time.


You didn't watch back then obviously - the Bulls were never called stacked at any point until the fake Lebron debate began - here's Isiah in 1993 saying the 3-peat Bulls were a 1-man team and Magic agreeing:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w


Stacked = all-stars and the Bulls' cast had the least of any multiple-time champion.. They were also the only team with only 1 go-to player/pure scorer, so MJ is the only guy in history that had to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load) for his entire career

[Full Court]

Only I don't think Bran stans are inflating Pippen's accomplishments, or at the very least, his contributions. This was standard during the 90s and I only saw a revisionist diminishing of Pippen's contributions during Kobe's time.

I've definitely seen the Bronies inflating Pippen's accomplishments. Morons like TheGoatest, expansionera, and a few others try to make the case that Pippen was the one carrying the team.

[Full Court]

You didn't watch back then obviously - the Bulls were never called stacked at any point until the fake Lebron debate began - here's Isiah in 1993 saying the 3-peat Bulls were a 1-man team and Magic agreeing:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w


Stacked = all-stars and the Bulls' cast had the least of any multiple-time champion.. They were also the only team with only 1 go-to player/pure scorer, so MJ is the only guy in history that had to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load) for his entire career

I did watch back then. And I mean they were stacked, as in stacked with talent. There's no formal definition of how many all stars a team needs to get the label "stacked." You have to be stacked with talent to win a championship. Period.

There's no question that Jordan was the cornerstone of the team. And as for the Bulls being a one-man team, they were, in the sense that if you can shut down Jordan, they don't win. I don't think that goes against any of my points though. At the same time, every great, including Jordan, needed role players to get their team to the top. Did Jordan carry a bigger load than the other greats? Probably, which is why he's the GOAT. I still consider the 90s Bulls stacked.

[HoopsNY]

I've definitely seen the Bronies inflating Pippen's accomplishments. Morons like TheGoatest, expansionera, and a few others try to make the case that Pippen was the one carrying the team.

Yea those guys are complete idiots. But even aside from that, the view that Pippen was an important contributor, as well as Rodman, Paxson, Grant, Armstrong, Kukoc, and of course Phil, is a necessary view that is often overlooked by MJ fans.

I grew up a Knicks fan. I have no stake in this game to prop up MJ or diminish his cast. The way I saw it was that it was a great team doing great things.

[HoopsNY]

I did watch back then. And I mean they were stacked, as in stacked with talent. There's no formal definition of how many all stars a team needs to get the label "stacked." You have to be stacked with talent to win a championship. Period.

There's no question that Jordan was the cornerstone of the team. And as for the Bulls being a one-man team, they were, in the sense that if you can shut down Jordan, they don't win. I don't think that goes against any of my points though. At the same time, every great, including Jordan, needed role players to get their team to the top. Did Jordan carry a bigger load than the other greats? Probably, which is why he's the GOAT. I still consider the 90s Bulls stacked.

Nicely said. If Zo wasn't clicking, the Heat could still win. If Shaq wasn't clicking, there were other guys to pick up that load. Same with the Rockets, Sonics, Lakers, Pistons, Suns, etc.

The same really can't be said about Chicago because Jordan's scoring was crucial and seemingly a threshold in most cases.

[97 bulls]

Nicely said. If Zo wasn't clicking, the Heat could still win. If Shaq wasn't clicking, there were other guys to pick up that load. Same with the Rockets, Sonics, Lakers, Pistons, Suns, etc.

The same really can't be said about Chicago because Jordan's scoring was crucial and seemingly a threshold in most cases.

Lol. This is what baffles me. Jordan didn’t have a great series by his standards in 96 and yet the Bulls won. The Bulls didn’t replace Jordan in 94, but they were still one of the best teams in the league. Jordan didn’t have it in 93. Why are these instance ignored?

[HoopsNY]

Lol. This is what baffles me. Jordan didn’t have a great series by his standards in 96 and yet the Bulls won. The Bulls didn’t replace Jordan in 94, but they were still one of the best teams in the league. Jordan didn’t have it in 93. Why are these instance ignored?

Well, Chicago had the series wrapped up after game 3 in '96. MJ put up 31 PPG in those first 3 games.

The '94 season is a testimony to Chicago being stacked. No one can deny that. I'm not sure what you mean by '93?

[Full Court]

Yea those guys are complete idiots. But even aside from that, the view that Pippen was an important contributor, as well as Rodman, Paxson, Grant, Armstrong, Kukoc, and of course Phil, is a necessary view that is often overlooked by MJ fans.

I grew up a Knicks fan. I have no stake in this game to prop up MJ or diminish his cast. The way I saw it was that it was a great team doing great things.

Yep, I'm in complete agreement.

[3ba11]

There's no formal definition of how many all stars a team needs to get the label "stacked."





You can't have the least all-stars ever though...

the Bulls' cast had the least all-stars and all-star appearances of any multiple-time champion.






You have to be stacked with talent to win a championship. Period.





2 factors allow winning:

* talent
* strategy (brand of ball/chemistry)

The 04' Pistons and 11' Mavs didn't win the Finals because they were stacked - their opponents were infact the super-teams that got upset by superior brand of ball & chemistry.

In addition to the Mavs and Pistons, the Spurs, Warriors and 90's Bulls developed the best brand of ball in the league..

So it's clear that teams win organically by developing the best brand of ball, which means Lebron never learned how to win (brand of ball. organic) and only learned how to team-hop (talent-based winning.. all-star team strategy).

In addition to not knowing how to win (organic), Lebron lacks the elite jumpshooting skill to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load in Finals) or carry bed-wetting teammates over top 5 SRS teams (no carry-jobs against good teams in 2 decades of playing)..

Since Lebron doesn't know how to win and can't defeat maximum defensive attention, he's inferior to Kobe.. carry on





There's no question that Jordan was the cornerstone of the team. And as for the Bulls being a one-man team, they were, in the sense that if you can shut down Jordan, they don't win. I don't think that goes against any of my points though. At the same time, every great, including Jordan, needed role players to get their team to the top. Did Jordan carry a bigger load than the other greats? Probably, which is why he's the GOAT. I still consider the 90s Bulls stacked.





Here's Isiah in 1993 saying the 3-peat Bulls were a 1-man team (time-stamped):



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&t=01m34s

"When you're talking about this Bulls team, you're only talking about Michael Jordan.... You can't really say that our team would've beaten him or the Lakers would've beat him, because no one has figured out how to stop this guy.. Sure, if you take Michael away, and you take Magic away, and you take me away, yeah, then our teams are better, but the fact is, he's still there (he hasn't been taken away)"


The reason Isiah said that is because everyone in history had teammates match or lead in scoring for entire playoff runs, while Jordan led Pippen by 10-30 ppg in every SERIES..

For numerous playoff runs, everyone in history had equal-scoring partners attract equal defensive attention, so they didn't always face maximum defensive attention - any period without facing maximum defensive attention is inflated stats compared to MJ, who carried the scoring load in every SERIES, let alone playoff run.

[GimmeThat]

any period without facing maximum defensive attention is inflated stats compared to MJ, who carried the scoring load in every SERIES, let alone playoff run.

you should put this in your note where as this part is where you start turning ISH into a zoo

[Full Court]

You can't have the least all-stars ever though...

the Bulls' cast had the least all-stars and all-star appearances of any multiple-time champion.






2 factors allow winning:

* talent
* strategy (brand of ball/chemistry)

The 04' Pistons and 11' Mavs didn't win the Finals because they were stacked - their opponents were infact the super-teams that got upset by superior brand of ball & chemistry.

In addition to the Mavs and Pistons, the Spurs, Warriors and 90's Bulls developed the best brand of ball in the league..

So it's clear that teams win organically by developing the best brand of ball, which means Lebron never learned how to win (brand of ball. organic) and only learned how to team-hop (talent-based winning.. all-star team strategy).

In addition to not knowing how to win (organic), Lebron lacks the elite jumpshooting skill to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load in Finals) or carry bed-wetting teammates over top 5 SRS teams (no carry-jobs against good teams in 2 decades of playing)..

Since Lebron doesn't know how to win and can't defeat maximum defensive attention, he's inferior to Kobe.. carry on





Here's Isiah in 1993 saying the 3-peat Bulls were a 1-man team (time-stamped):



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N6og_pOVi2w&t=01m34s

"When you're talking about this Bulls team, you're only talking about Michael Jordan.... You can't really say that our team would've beaten him or the Lakers would've beat him, because no one has figured out how to stop this guy.. Sure, if you take Michael away, and you take Magic away, and you take me away, yeah, then our teams are better, but the fact is, he's still there (he hasn't been taken away)"


The reason Isiah said that is because everyone in history had teammates match or lead in scoring for entire playoff runs, while Jordan led Pippen by 10-30 ppg in every SERIES..

For numerous playoff runs, everyone in history had equal-scoring partners attract equal defensive attention, so they didn't always face maximum defensive attention - any period without facing maximum defensive attention is inflated stats compared to MJ, who carried the scoring load in every SERIES, let alone playoff run.

I consider the 2022 Lakers to be a stacked team too.

But I really don't disagree with the rest of what you said. The problem is that Jordan is the greatest scorer in the history of the sport (Wilt is the only other one with an argument). So to compare Pippen's scoring to Jordan's isn't really fair to Pippen.

One of the things that made the Bulls such a great team is how well everyone's role complemented the others'. Jordan was the GOAT scorer, so he won 10 scoring titles and did the bulk of the scoring. Jordan probably could have camped out near the hoop and padded his rebound stats ala Westbrook, but he didn't. He had Rodman to pull down boards. And I could go on.

That said, Jordan was the one who got 5 MVPs and 6 FMVPs, so there's no question that it was Jordan's team. And "no one figured out how to stop the guy," which is why he's the GOAT. But acknowledging that doesn't preclude also acknowledging that Pippen was a great player in his own right.

[Baller789]

How do you measure what a talented player is? The Bulls were one of the most talented teams in history.


I agree


Pippen haters
As a clear example for you:

In 2000, you can't say with a straight face that the Lakers had a more talented roster the the Blazers. You don't need advanced stats for this.

Difference is the Lakers had better stars and a better team.

[RRR3]

That's because you were on the Kobe side of the debate, snivelly.

[GimmeThat]

As a clear example for you:

In 2000, you can't say with a straight face that the Lakers had a more talented roster the the Blazers. You don't need advanced stats for this.

Difference is the Lakers had better stars and a better team.

you're sort of stuck in a world where you have 2 d*cks huh

[Baller789]

you're sort of stuck in a world where you have 2 d*cks huh

What will this ad hominem response of yours prove?

[GimmeThat]

What will this ad hominem response of yours prove?

using less words to describe an exact same meaning is more

[3ba11]

. So to compare Pippen's scoring to Jordan's isn't really fair to Pippen.





You misread the post - the reason that Pippen never came close to Jordan in any series because Pippen's peak capability in a series was the lowest of any sidekick, maybe ever..

Every 90's sidekick was actually a 1b with numerous series of complete domination and elite stats, while Pippen was an Iggy-level producer and always carried (never a 1b).. Only Pippen had a low peak capability and was always carried (never a 1b).

Everyone's peak was better than Pippen's, even Horry's - Pippen is 0/6 in reaching Horry's gamescore from the 95' Finals).






One of the things that made the Bulls such a great team is how well everyone's role complemented the others'.





Basketball 101 - it isn't optimal to carry the scoring load... It isn't "easier" or "optimal" to win as scoring champ or lead all teammates in scoring by 10-30 ppg.. It's only done out of necessity - the Bulls had weak scoring help, so MJ had to carry the biggest scoring load in history.. If it was easy or optimal, more people would do it, but only MJ won multiple chips without elite scorers as teammates..

You're simply forgetting that everyone in history needed all-time elite scorers as teammates (juggernaut scoring help), except the GOAT..

The GOAT could 3-peat while playing 4 on 5 offensively (Rodman) and a sidekick getting 17.6 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs.

So don't pretend that it's easy to win with a bunch of hustlers and defenders (role players) because no one did that except MJ - everyone else had juggernaut scoring help.






He had Rodman to pull down boards. And I could go on.





Jordan was playing 4 on 5 with Rodman, so he wouldn't be playable in a Lebron lineup that requires goat scoring help to win titles..

And regarding the rebounding and assist help - Jordan averaged more assists than Pippen for their Finals career, playoff career, and regular season career..

In addition to Jordan, all of Lebron's sidekicks averaged more assists than Pippen (Wade, Westbrook, Kyrie) and all 90's sidekicks (Stockton, Penny, Payton, KJ, Hardaway, etc).. Heck, Pippen averaged 5 apg - that's never been considered "stacked" or great help.

Btw, Tristan, Bosh and Love are better rebounders than Horace, while Lebron also had elite rim protection compared to MJ, who had literally none.

Ultimately, scoring help (star help) was the biggest requirement for everyone in history and MJ needed the least of it..

[Baller789]

using less words to describe an exact same meaning is more

Maybe if you tried understanding the point more instead trying to prove youre right, I would have taken you more seriously.

[Round Mound]

I only started shitting on Pippen in the Lebron/MJ debate because that's when the narrative began that the 90's Bulls were infact "stacked".

NO ONE said the bulls were stacked during the MJ/Kobe debate..

NO ONE sung pippen's praises or pretended 2nd scoring options didn't have to score and could just play defense.. That whole narrative was started by Klutch and picked up by nascent fans as Lebron's colluding plan to stack his resume began.

It's all a fraud.. No one thought the Bulls were "stacked" during the Kobe/MJ debate - that wasn't a "thing"...Kobe and MJ fans literally debated whose game was better - that's it - who was nicer - who had the better jumper, ballhandling and decision-making - those were the topics of conversation.

This idea that Kukoc, Kerr and Harper were infact stars and not low-producing role players that every team has - this narrative was started by Klutch and picked up by nascent fans.

Anyway, I'm not sure what else to say - it just hit me that I never had to shit on the Bulls' cast back in 2007 when I was arguing MJ over Kobe to my buddies at the bar after work.. I only have to shit on the cast now because the Klutch fraud and history revision requires it - they stacked the deck, so now they want people thinking that EVERYONE stacks the deck- but that's wrong - they're the only ones that did (and then Durant had to respond)

3-ball do you think Pau Gasol was better than Scottie Pippen?

[GimmeThat]

Maybe if you tried understanding the point more instead trying to prove youre right, I would have taken you more seriously.

you'll enjoy your demotion.

[3ba11]

3-ball do you think Pau Gasol was better than Scottie Pippen?


Pau was a go-to player; Pippen was not



Playoff Clutch Stats (last 5 within 5)

09' Pau......... 3.5 (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Playoffs)
10' Pau......... 1.6 (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=2009-10&SeasonType=Playoffs)

97' Pippen..... 1.6 (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)
98' Pippen..... 1.7 (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)


Finals Clutch Stats (last 5 within 5)

09' Pau......... 7.0* (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)
10' Pau......... 1.8* (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)

97' Pippen..... 1.0 (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)
98' Pippen..... 1.6 (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)

* Led Lakers


Pippen was literally behind Paxson, Kerr and Kukoc in the clutch... He was a transition and system player, while Pau was a go-to option on the block, high post or screen action - a sophisticated big with touch that commanded doubles.

The Lakers ran repeated iso's with Pau and he was always a big factor on the scouting report (https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2022/qrDm8n.gif).

[Round Mound]

Pau was a go-to player; Pippen was not



Playoff Clutch Stats (last 5 within 5)

09' Pau......... 3.5 (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Playoffs)
10' Pau......... 1.6 (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=2009-10&SeasonType=Playoffs)

97' Pippen..... 1.6 (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs)
98' Pippen..... 1.7 (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs)


Finals Clutch Stats (last 5 within 5)

09' Pau......... 7.0* (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)
10' Pau......... 1.8* (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)

97' Pippen..... 1.0 (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)
98' Pippen..... 1.6 (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Playoffs&PORound=4)

* Led Lakers


Pippen was literally behind Paxson, Kerr and Kukoc in the clutch... He was a transition and system player, while Pau was a go-to option on the block, high post or screen action - a sophisticated big with touch that commanded doubles.

The Lakers ran repeated iso's with Pau and he was always a big factor on the scouting report (https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2022/qrDm8n.gif).

Do you think Pau Gasol is a Top 10 GOAT PF?

[Baller789]

you'll enjoy your demotion.

:milton

[RogueBorg]

got a point, window licker?

Can you not come up with a new set of insults, you've been using the same lame "Window licker" for 2 years. Hopefully this will shut you up

https://image.shutterstock.com/image-photo/top-view-crackers-isolated-on-260nw-1929109547.jpg

[ImKobe]

He's not wrong, he was a sidekick to Shaq.

You have a point with '00 Kobe. But even in a clear sidekick role, he was the #1 closer on the team and the Lakers relied on his crunch time play to win championships. Can never say that about Pippen in Chicago. Phil trusted a rookie Kukoc over Pippen when it mattered in the POs and Pippen quit on his team as a result.

[RogueBorg]

Lol. This is what baffles me. Jordan didn’t have a great series by his standards in 96 and yet the Bulls won. The Bulls didn’t replace Jordan in 94, but they were still one of the best teams in the league. Jordan didn’t have it in 93. Why are these instance ignored?

What do you mean Jordan didn't have it in '93?

[97 bulls]

What do you mean Jordan didn't have it in '93?

My bad. I meant the 93 ECF.

[John_Connor]

OP is legit the only jordan fan on the internet interacting with lebron fans lmao

that should be all you need to know

[97 bulls]

My bad. I meant the 93 ECF.

And to be fair. The only reason he had a subpar series was because he was hurt.

[Axe]

OP is legit the only jordan fan on the internet interacting with lebron fans lmao

that should be all you need to know
Op is actually a closet kobe stan

[3ba11]

In the 2nd half of games and clutch, Pippen was 5th option behind Paxson, Kerr, Kukoc and Grant in the 94' Playoffs and entire career - his team-low WS/48 in those playoffs & clutch stats show he wasn't a go-to option, while Phil's decision to put Kukoc in the hero role or Kerr in the "bailout" spot over a bricklayer and non-scorer like Pippen only drives the point home further

That's why Pippen flipped out in 94' and now - Phil exposed Pippen's worst fear that he couldn't accept (that he wasn't THAT GUY, aka closer... And that's okay.. own it.... But he literally lost it in 94' and was ashamed to get exposed so openly - now he's enraged again, this time at Michael for ripping that scab back off

[3ba11]

In the 2nd half of games and clutch, Pippen was 5th option behind Paxson, Kerr, Kukoc and Grant in the 94' Playoffs and entire career - his team-low WS/48 in those playoffs & clutch stats show he wasn't a go-to option, while Phil's decision to put Kukoc in the hero role or Kerr in the "bailout" spot over a bricklayer and non-scorer like Pippen only drives the point home further

That's why Pippen flipped out in 94' and now - Phil exposed Pippen's worst fear that he couldn't accept - that he wasn't THAT GUY, aka closer... And that's okay.. just own it.... But Pippen literally lost it in 94' and was ashamed to get exposed so openly - now he's enraged again, this time at Michael for ripping that scab back off.. He literally needs counseling about not being a 1st option





Carry on


https://c.tenor.com/zdFtiktD6-wAAAAS/accomplished-job.gif

[3ba11]

Do you think Pau Gasol is a Top 10 GOAT PF?


pippen and reggie miller faced the same playoff opponent 5 times and it's clear that pippen's ability is CONFIRMED MUCH WORSE than miller's:



R Miller vs. 90' Pistons..... 20.7 on 57%... 17.9 usage
Pippen. vs. 90' Pistons..... 16.6 on 43%... 20.4 usage

R Miller vs 93' Knicks....... 31.5 on 53%... 27.5 usage
Pippen. vs 93' Knicks....... 22.5 on 51%... 28.4 usage

R Miller vs 94' Knicks....... 24.7 on 44%... 30.1 usage
Pippen. vs 94' Knicks....... 21.7 on 41%... 31.7 usage

R Miller vs 95' Magic........ 25.9 on 52%... 26.2 usage
Pippen. vs 95' Magic........ 19.0 on 42%... 23.1 usage

R Miller vs 00' Lakers....... 24.3 on 41%... 25.0 usage
Pippen. vs 00' Lakers....... 15.1 on 43%... 19.5 usage
Pippen. vs 99' Lakers....... 18.3 on 33%... 23.5 usage

R Miller 98' ECF............... 17.4 on 41%... 21.1 usage
Pippen. 98' ECF............... 16.6 on 39%... 26.0 usage



ONLY PIPPEN failed to reach peak-Horry level in the Finals over a meaningful sample size (0/6):



95' Horry...... 19.0 gamescore... 18/10/4/3/2 on 57 TS

92' Pippen.... 18.1 gamescore.... 21/8/7/2/1 on 56 TS
91' Pippen.... 17.5 gamescore.... 21/9/7/2/1 on 53 TS
93' Pippen.... 15.6 gamescore.... 20/9/8/2/1 on 46 TS
97' Pippen.... 15.1 gamescore.... 20/8/3/2/2 on 54 TS
96' Pippen.... 13.4 gamescore.... 16/7/5/2/1 on 43 TS
98' Pippen.... 13.0 gamescore.... 16/8/5/2/1 on 50 TS


X-Man carried the 87' Sonics to the WCF and averaged 25/9/4 against the favored Lakers - that's better than Pippen ever played and old X-Man demolished 92' Pippen heads-up and nearly derailed the repeat.

the point is that EVERYONE PLAYED BETTER THAN PIPPEN....

so you can recount all his media awards (inspired by the winning spotlight) but if you can't point to actual dominant performance and elite stats like every other sidekick in the 90's had, then Pippen is confirmed a bum and overrated...

Every 90's sidekick was infact a 1b with many series of elite stats and domination, except Pippen - only Pippen failed to get elite ppg, rpg or apg in any series.. The worst sidekick that Jordan faced in the Finals (Porter) played like Damian Lillard in the 90' and 92' Finals runs, while Pippen's best performance was Iggy.

The historical timeline of Pippen's career shows that shows he was propped up by the triangle and dynasty chemistry (system player), otherwise he was a 14 ppg dunker that couldn't score - that's the historical record.. Notice how I'm spitting facts and you're coming back with opinions and media awards

[GimmeThat]

ONLY PIPPEN failed to reach peak-Horry level in the Finals over a meaningful sample size (0/6):




as Scottie Pippen's stan, I would like for you to put me on ignore as well as Scottie Pippen

[3ba11]

as Scottie Pippen's stan, I would like for you to put me on ignore as well as Scottie Pippen


Imagine winning 6 Finals without your best teammate reaching peak-Horry level

[GimmeThat]

Imagine winning 6 Finals without your best teammate reaching peak-Horry level

Imagine never having an orgasm ever again

[97 bulls]

Imagine winning 6 Finals without your best teammate reaching peak-Horry level

So why isn't Horry ranked 8n the top 75?

[GimmeThat]

So why isn't Horry ranked 8n the top 75?

because Michael Jordan is Prince Williams and Scottie Pippen is Prince Harry