Chris Bosh or Jermaine O'Neal - Who was better?

[k0kakw0rld]

https://zupimages.net/up/22/15/u8f8.jpeg (https://zupimages.net/viewer.php?id=22/15/u8f8.jpeg)

Who you got?

We are talking about Jermaine O'Neal in Indiana here.

[FultzNationRISE]

I always thought both had a bit of an inflated name value relative to impact.

So I dunno. Toss up.

[3ba11]

Bosh easily because he was more of a pure scorer, shooter and smoother repertoire that was more conducive for better team offense.. Heck, Bosh's shooting found a way to fit with Lebron's suboptimal brand, which O'Neal couldn't do

[AlternativeAcc.]

Bosh easily because he was more of a pure scorer, shooter and smoother repertoire that was more conducive for better team offense.. Heck, Bosh's shooting found a way to fit with Lebron's suboptimal brand, which O'Neal couldn't do

Is bosh the guy who scored 0 points in game 7 of the finals?

[3ba11]

Is bosh the guy who scored 0 points in game 7 of the finals?


In the 2013 Finals, teammates saved Lebron 80 times before he returned the favor in Game 7

Teammates staved off an 0-3 deficit while Lebron averaged 16 on 39% thru 3 games... His 23 on 43% was insufficient thru 6 games and needed Ray to force Game 7

Lebron had a zero plus-minus and negative net rating for the series, so the Heat didn't win with him on the floor.. He averaged 25 and his sidekick 20, so Lebron wasn't dominant and didn't carry anyone.

Carry on tho

[AlternativeAcc.]

In the 2013 Finals, teammates saved Lebron 80 times before he returned the favor in Game 7

Teammates staved off an 0-3 deficit while Lebron averaged 16 on 38% thru 3 games... His 23 on 43% was insufficient thru 6 games and needed Ray to force Game 7

Lebron had a zero plus-minus and negative net rating for the series, so the Heat didn't win with him on the floor

Carry on tho

Is Ray the guy who scored 0 points in game 7 of the finals?

[tpols]

Jermaine Oneal was basically just a goon player. He didn't have the game Chris Bosh had. His jumper and efficiency were terrible. Wasn't nearly as quick or skilled.

[Charlie Sheen]

If I am featuring one of them as a cornerstone franchise player to build around? Bosh. Toronto really dropped the ball when they had this opportunity.

Adding one of them as a complementary piece to a contending roster? I think you get more out of Jermaine there.

[FKAri]

If I am featuring one of them as a cornerstone franchise player to build around? Bosh. Toronto really dropped the ball when they had this opportunity.

Adding one of them as a complementary piece to a contending roster? I think you get more out of Jermaine there.

I was thinking the reverse. What's your reasoning? I think JO started running into injury trouble and bad circumstances which reduced him as an overall player. He was a more creative scorer imo whereas Bosh relied on his quickness vs PFs to score off of the triple threat. Bosh was more of an exploiter of mismatches who could be a more dangerous scorer than JO if you couldn't neutralize him whereas JO was harder to neutralize. Surely you take the latter to build around. Though tbf neither was good enough to get you far into the playoffs as the man.

[SouBeachTalents]

If I am featuring one of them as a cornerstone franchise player to build around? Bosh. Toronto really dropped the ball when they had this opportunity.

Adding one of them as a complementary piece to a contending roster? I think you get more out of Jermaine there.
Neither of them are real franchise players. Between the two of them they had one 50 win season in like 12 seasons combined in that role, and they were usually either out in the first round or in the lottery.

In a supporting role, I'd take Bosh over O'Neal, esp in this era. I feel like his strengths are a lot more complimentary to virtually any team setup. He can space the floor, score a lot moe efficiently, and while he's definitely not the defender O'Neal was, he did play excellent P&R defense in Miami.

[97 bulls]

Stats vs results

The Pacers win record with O'Neal as arguably the best player
42, 48, 61, 45

The Raptors record with Bosh as the arguble best player
27, 47, 41, 53, 40


Some of you guys just don't get it.

[Charlie Sheen]

I was thinking the reverse. What's your reasoning? I think JO started running into injury trouble and bad circumstances which reduced him as an overall player. He was a more creative scorer imo whereas Bosh relied on his quickness vs PFs to score off of the triple threat. Bosh was more of an exploiter of mismatches who could be a more dangerous scorer than JO if you couldn't neutralize him whereas JO was harder to neutralize. Surely you take the latter to build around. Though tbf neither was good enough to get you far into the playoffs as the man.

I don't think either one brings home a championship as the man. Agree with you there.

I don't know if I agree with JO being harder to neutralize. The environment matters. There was a greater cost to neutralizing one vs the other. It would be easier to neutralize raptor Bosh because forcing the ball out of his hands opens up more shots for players like Anthony Parker. I just have a greater confidence in Bosh being able to score or create scoring opportunities when the team needs it. I'm not going to argue the triple threat point. You're not wrong. He didn't feature a back to the basket dimension that's worth mentioning here. Though I don't think it's fair to make it a point that he was an exploiter of mismatches. Bosh could go to work against Dwight Howard too. He wasn't neutralized by defenders who matched up with his quickness.

[tpols]

Stats vs results

The Pacers win record with O'Neal as arguably the best player
42, 48, 61, 45

The Raptors record with Bosh as the arguble best player
27, 47, 41, 53, 40


Some of you guys just don't get it.

Oneal played on stacked Pacers teams while raptors Bosh played on shit teams. Name Boshs best teammate and we can talk.

[SouBeachTalents]

Oneal played on stacked Pacers teams while raptors Bosh played on shit teams. Name Boshs best teammate and we can talk.
Yeah, O'Neal played on better teams, but the bolded is ridiculous.

[tpols]

Yeah, O'Neal played on better teams, but the bolded is ridiculous.

The Pacers before the Malice in the Palace were stacked bro. Bosh never had anywhere near that level of help. You clearly weren't watching back then.

[Kblaze8855]

How on earth was Jermaine O’Neal a goon type? What does that even mean? It can’t mean what it sounds like if we’re talking about Jermaine O’Neal.

That said I never cared much for either as franchise types. I distinctly remember making a topic when Jermaine went to Toronto about how I never had more confidence that two big names playing together wouldn’t matter.

I wish more of these people who have strong Bosh opinions were here before 2010. See what they really thought. A LOT of people didn’t **** with Bosh back then. Knick and Celtic fans especially.

[BarberSchool]

O’Neal had a lower ceiling and a shorter peak.
Bosh had a higher ceiling he never really met.

Not impressed by either of em really.

[tpols]

I always respected Boshs game in the mid 2000s as a Kidd Net fan. He was annoying how good his face up game was. It didn't help he looked like an actual raptor with that hair do and how raptor like his quick strike game was. Jermaine Oneal was a sluggish over muscled goon by comparison. He fit that eastern conference early 2000s era to a T though.

[BigKobeFan]

Bosh. He had a career moment with his assist to ray allen that saved a career. O'Neal never had that

[Reggie43]

Not a fan of the guy but a Healthy Jermaine was the better and more impactful player especially in terms of defense and anchoring the paint. He led his own team to 61 wins in 2004 which was the best mark in the whole nba with his only notable teammate being a prime Artest who was at the brink of his crazyness.

[k0kakw0rld]

Stats vs results

The Pacers win record with O'Neal as arguably the best player
42, 48, 61, 45

The Raptors record with Bosh as the arguble best player
27, 47, 41, 53, 40


Some of you guys just don't get it.

Exactly!

I mean I like Bosh he was a Raptor but J.O. was a monster in Indiana. If it was not for the Artest incident they could have won at least one championship.

[TheGoatest]

Chris Bosh is about as much better than Jermaine O'Neal as Khris Middleton is better than Paul George.

[Im Still Ballin]

Here's a Sports Illustrated article about the topic from February 6th, 2007:

https://web.archive.org/web/20080327044713/http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/jack_mccallum/02/06/choosing.sides.bosh.oneal/index.html



Who would you rather have?

SI.com's Jack McCallum analyzes which of these Eastern Conference All-Star power forwards he'd want on his team in a seven-game series.

Here's the premise: For one seven-game series, you can have one of the following two Eastern Conference All-Star power forwards who sometimes play more like a center -- Toronto's Chris Bosh or Indiana's Jermaine O'Neal. This is not presented as a long-term deal because, presumably, most everyone would take Bosh, who is just 22 and in his fourth season, over O'Neal, who is 29 and in his 11th. (Jermaine came into the NBA right after his graduation from middle school.)

Which player would you take for that one series?

Their numbers are similar. Bosh averages 22.8 points per game, O'Neal is at 19.8; that is predictable since Bosh's Raptors score more than O'Neal's Pacers. Bosh is a better percentage shooter, 50 percent to 44.5 percent, and they both shoot about 75 percent at the free throw line (even though O'Neal has a curious knee dip that begins and ends before he releases the shot). Both are demon rebounders (Bosh's 10.7 vs. O'Neal's 10.5) and adequate though not brilliant passers (O'Neal has the edge with 2.7 assists compared to Bosh's 2.3).

Both players know exactly who they are. O'Neal is a post-up guy who usually has his back to the basket. He doesn't step out and take perimeter shots (he hasn't even attempted a three-pointer this season), while Bosh has a little more face-up ability and an inclination to break down his defender off the dribble.

Bosh's long arms -- he is invariably referred to as "the long-armed Chris Bosh" -- make him a good defender. O'Neal, for his part, has made a conscious effort to become a shot-blocker/basket protector and it has paid off this season: He is blocking 3.05 shots per game, second only to Denver's Marcus Camby. That compares to Bosh's 1.22.

That last stat gets my attention. In a playoff series, when the action slows down, O'Neal will win a game or two himself with his low-post scoring, and he's going to be all over the place on defense. Plus, the Pacer does have a 70-0 lead over Bosh in playoff-game experience.

So I'll take O'NEAL in the seven-gamer, though Bosh may someday be an MVP.


Here's a 4-page forum discussion from the same date:

https://www.basketballforum.com/threads/jermaine-oneal-vs-chris-bosh.338426/



Chris Bosh, hes younger and durable. Chris also has more character IMO




For a seven-game series you almost have to take O'Neal. Bosh doesn't have playoff experience.

But damn, am I ever looking forward to Bosh in the playoffs, anyways.




Chris bosh is younger and is already a starting allstar

JO is a veteran, an excellent Defender, leads the league in blocks per game, has been an allstar plenty of times

JO is better now but bosh will be better in 1-2 years...

I'd Take Bosh




I'd take Bosh even for the playoffs. This guy plays like hes been in the league for years.




Bosh owns Jermaine Oneal.




How are they similar, JO is much more of a back to the basket player. Bosh has much more range than JO and can put the ball on the floor from almost on the perimeter versus other bigs. JO plays defense, Bosh does not.




I think it would have to depend solely on what you're trying to do with your team, what kind of team you're building or think you can put together easier. If you're just building for the future, and need the person that you want as the face of your franchise for as long as possible... Bosh. He's got a lot of miles left on him, and he's already an all-star.

If you're building for right now, and the immediate future, however, it depends on what you figure your team will be doing. Jermaine O'Neal is miles ahead of Bosh in all defensive abilities. He's a better shot blocker, better post defender, better weak-side help guy, and is generally just hard to get a shot off on. If you're looking to build an offensive team, however, Chris Bosh is already more polished than Jermaine in the post. (Though Jermaine has an impressive skill set in there, especially his left hand. Bosh doesn't have nearly as good of a right hand as Jermaine has for a left.) Bosh is also a good passer, and has a good understanding of how offenses works. He's also a character guy, and clearly willing to give up shots in order for the offense to run smoothly, haven't seen as much of that with O'Neal. Then there's the fact that every time I see Bosh playing defense, you get the distinct feeling that, eventually, he's going to block a shot with his neck. I'm almost positive it's going to happen... and it will be the greatest block of all time.




based on that article - in a 7 round series - JO by far.




Jermaine O'neal. He's the better rebounder, post up scorer, and post defender, and those are the three most important attributes for a PF.




Bosh's defense isn't great, but it is decent. He certainly has a far better offensive game, which in my opinion surpasses anything JO can do on defense.




JO. Bosh doesn't appear physical enough. Hey, there was a game some time ago where Richard Jefferson completely locked up Chris Bosh and made him useless. If JO could stay more around the basket, he is a very good post player unlike Bosh.

[Im Still Ballin]

As far as my opinion, I'd go with Jermaine O'Neal. Neither will win you a championship as a centrepiece, but playing a role, I'd rather have JO. I would restrict him to a defensive, rim-protecting, rebounding role.

Bosh would be used as a secondary or tertiary scorer, but I'd rather have a rock-solid rim protector and rebounder. Someone who gives you 10+ boards and 2.5-3.0 blocks a night.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onfrdzk_YEA

[Im Still Ballin]

Here's a good post from RealGM about Jermaine O'Neal:

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=1378334



I would say his best season was 2003-04. He played only 44 games in the 2004-05 regular season (78 in 2003-04), and played very poorly in the 2005 playoffs.

In 2003-04, he co-anchored (along with Artest) the third best defense in the NBA, after San Antonio and Detroit, and they led Indiana to 61 wins (best record in the league), and then ECF, losing to the Pistons in 6 games (by the way - it was probably the ugliest playoff series I've ever seen - Pacers scored below 70 points in three of those six games, Pistons averaged 75.2 ppg, Pacers averaged 72.7 - on the other hand, you can say that both teams played incredible defense, and they were extremely physical - the only player who shot the ball well in that series was Rip Hamilton, who averaged 23.7 ppg on 54.5% TS - almost nobody else was able to shoot even 40% from the field...).

Anyway, getting back to JO that season - he was a very inefficient scorer (his 48.9% TS wasn't as bad in 2004 as it would be today, because league average was much lower - just 51.6%, compared to about 54% in 2014-15, but it was still clearly below average) - he loved to take a lot of tough, contested midrange jumpers, even fadeaway or turnaround, and he shot just about 39% on those, plus he was just about average as a passer. but still, he attracted a lot of defensive attention, and his offensive impact wasn't bad, as a result (+1.1 in NPI ORAPM, +0.9 in offensive xRAPM). You could also throw the ball to him on the block, and he could score, he had quite a few moves, he wasn't just a finisher (that's why he was able to average 20+ ppg).

That being said, his offense was much worse than guys' like Chris Webber or LaMarcus Aldridge, or even Al Jefferson, who are similarly inefficient in terms of TS%, but they have some other things that make them special on the offensive end - Webber was an outstanding passer and ballhandler for a bigman, Aldridge is a better shooter than O'Neal, and he has an insanely low turnover rate (that makes his offense better than his below average TS% would indicate, while Jefferson has great footwork and post moves, excellent strength (especially in his legs), and like LMA, he rarely turns the ball over.

However, offense wasn't JO's calling card. He was one of the best defensive anchors in the NBA. In the 2004 season, he was in the same class as Duncan, Garnett, and maybe even Ben Wallace, as a defender. Excellent shotblocker (2.6 bpg, 6th in the league), good athleticism and mobility, which allowed him to be an effective pick & roll defender, and a very good rebounder, especially on the defensive glass.

I think the DPOY voters definitely made a mistake, giving Artest all the votes, while O'Neal didn't receive a single vote...That's wrong, because even the best perimeter defenders (not even Artest, who was arguably the GOAT perimeter defender at his peak), don't have the same kind of impact as great defensive bigmen, and JO was more impactful than Artest. Top 4 in the DPOY voting that year should've been Ben Wallace, Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett and Jermaine O'Neal, in some order, then probably Artest and Bowen, but the bigs should be ahead of the wings.

JO was a top 10 player in 2004, for sure, and today, he'd be a borderline top 10 guy (roughly the same level as Aldridge, who I have at 9, right now). Arguably the second best PF after Davis, more or less even with LMA.

He ranked 5th in NPI RAPM, and 10th in xRAPM, which indicates that he had superstar impact (lower level superstar, but still).

Well, at least the MVP voters got it right - JO finished 3rd after Garnett and Duncan, while Artest didn't receive any votes.

[Kblaze8855]

Here's a Sports Illustrated article about the topic from February 6th, 2007:

https://web.archive.org/web/20080327044713/http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/jack_mccallum/02/06/choosing.sides.bosh.oneal/index.html



Here's a 4-page forum discussion from the same date:

https://www.basketballforum.com/threads/jermaine-oneal-vs-chris-bosh.338426/

And that’s from Bosh’s sole all nba season and the worst year Jermaine had in 6 seasons.

[SouBeachTalents]

Another interesting one would be Bosh vs. Brand.

[Im Still Ballin]

Another interesting one would be Bosh vs. Brand.

I like Brand for his more decisive 'big man' game: rebounding and shot-blocking. He weighs significantly more, has a 2" longer wingspan, and a 1" greater standing reach. Despite being 2" shorter, he's actually far bigger when it comes to basketball.

I also prefer his offensive game as well. His outside shot was super reliable at his best: 49.4% FG from 10-16ft in 2005-2006. In that same season, he shot 52.7% FG from 3-10ft, suggesting the quality of his post-up game.

It wasn't a one-season fluke either: he replicated it for three straight seasons ('05-'07): https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/brandel01.html#2005-2007-sum:shooting



3-10ft: 51.7% FG
10-16ft: 46.9% FG


Bosh's only offensive advantages were 16ft+ shooting, free-throw shooting, and slashing. Got quite a lot of free throws as a result of that face-up, dribble-drive action.

[Kblaze8855]

Much as I didn’t **** with Bosh I liked Brand even less. I’d take Bosh despite the small segment of fans who insist 06 Brand was god for winning 47 games with an ok team and losing in the second round.

[houston]

Bosh better

[RRR3]

Much as I didn’t **** with Bosh I liked Brand even less. I’d take Bosh despite the small segment of fans who insist 06 Brand was god for winning 47 games with an ok team and losing in the second round.
I feel like you really hate all star level PFs who fall below the level of superstar. Bosh, Brand, JO, Vin Baker. Am I wrong?

[Kblaze8855]

I actually liked Vin Baker a bit but you may have a point. Those middling star 4s usually don’t do it for me. I did like Antonio Mcdyess a little. And I ****ed with Rasheed Wallace. I’ll have to give it some thought but there may be a trend. I like a lot of non all star or occasionally fluke all star 4s. Not so much the consistent middling star guys.

[ShawkFactory]

I feel like you really hate all star level PFs who fall below the level of superstar. Bosh, Brand, JO, Vin Baker. Am I wrong?

Al Jefferson. LMA.

All highly skilled but ultimately not overly impactful for whatever reason.

[ShawkFactory]

I actually liked Vin Baker a bit but you may have a point. Those middling star 4s usually don’t do it for me. I did like Antonio Mcdyess a little. And I ****ed with Rasheed Wallace. I’ll have to give it some thought but there may be a trend. I like a lot of non all star or occasionally fluke all star 4s. Not so much the consistent middling star guys.

Rasheed was a different type. He was strong defensively and was willing to sacrifice his touches in the post/mold his game in general around what was best for the team.

If he was selfish I think he could have been a 25ppg guy.

[Kblaze8855]

Rasheed to me might benefit from a lack of people throwing numbers at you like it means you have to think someone is elite because of them. He had a game you had to pay a little attention to appreciate not just Google. He might have 13/7 and have played well. Bosh was the same by a couple years into his heat run and I think I consider that version better than the Raptors one. Blowing up pick and rolls, moving his feet, manipulating the defense to the benefit of others. He was still soft in his ways(I’ll forever be annoyed he complained about the Bulls role players diving for loose balls near him) but he did a lot of little things.

[RRR3]

Rasheed to me might benefit from a lack of people throwing numbers at you like it means you have to think someone is elite because of them. He had a game you had to pay a little attention to appreciate not just Google. He might have 13/7 and have played well. Bosh was the same by a couple years into his heat run and I think I consider that version better than the Raptors one. Blowing up pick and rolls, moving his feet, manipulating the defense to the benefit of others. He was still soft in his ways(I’ll forever be annoyed he complained about the Bulls role players diving for loose balls near him) but he did a lot of little things.
But 3braincells told me LeBron ruined him…

[ShawkFactory]

I've been on here for months saying that Heat Bosh was better than Raptors Bosh as an overall player for exactly those reasons. He got less ISO opportunities and thus the numbers went down. But he was a better player.

[SouBeachTalents]

I’m going to assume you’re also not a fan of Boozer, LMA, Blake, Love etc, but if I had to guess, you might like Z-Bo.

[Im Still Ballin]

I’m going to assume you’re also not a fan of Boozer, LMA, Blake, Love etc, but if I had to guess, you might like Z-Bo.

Josh Smith

[Kblaze8855]

I’m going to assume you’re also not a fan of Boozer, LMA, Blake, Love etc, but if I had to guess, you might like Z-Bo.

5 out of 5. I can respect the talent required to be some of those players but they aren’t who I’d want as my teams best player ideally. And for the record I only liked Memphis Zbo a lot. He was on some bullshit at times.

[ShawkFactory]

Josh Smith

Not a true PF like the others. But I hated him.

I've never seen such a bad 3pt shooter settle so much for 3s. With the athleticism he had. He had one year where he took like 12 the entire season and it was by far his best year overall and the best the Hawks had while he was on the team.

Really dumb player most of the time.