2022 AD had higher PPG, RPG & PER than Pippen ever did

[3ba11]

So Lebron is lottery with a sidekick that performed better than Pippen ever did

And Pippen missed the same number of games in 98' so injuries aren't an excuse

Furthermore, Westbrook averaged 19/7/7 this year (prime Pippen caliber).. So Lebron had 2 Pippen's and couldn't make the play-in.

Ultimately, people knocked AD this year the same way they knocked 13' Wade - people complained about 13-16' Wade because he'd fallen to peak Pippen level (21/5/5 and 21 PER).

[Real Men Wear Green]

No one is disputing that Toni Kukoc is the GOAT. Some holds the fact that Rodman is one of the greatest rebounder and defenders of all time but no one has ever seriously debated against Toni.

[FireDavidKahn]

40 games.

Less then Scottie Pippen ever did except his last year in the league.

[ShawkFactory]

No one is disputing that Toni Kukoc is the GOAT. Some holds the fact that Rodman is one of the greatest rebounder and defenders of all time but no one has ever seriously debated against Toni.

It shouldn't be disputed. His scoring went up 40% from 98 to 99.

There was some real cratering going on there.

[3ba11]

No one is disputing that Toni Kukoc is the GOAT. Some holds the fact that Rodman is one of the greatest rebounder and defenders of all time but no one has ever seriously debated against Toni.


Thank god for Toni.. Seriously..

There's so many little stretches that he would take over when MJ couldn't - the 96' championship video shows three different stretches in the Finals where Kukoc went on a mini-personal run and took over - like 10 straight points or something on multiple occasions - Pippen literally never did this..

Kukoc averaged 13 ppg but he was #1 option in the 2nd half, 4th quarter and clutch aside from MJ

Ultimately, Pippen was the only 90's sidekick that wasn't a go-to player or a threat for elite stats in any offensive category, so it was good to have a pure scorer and sniper like Kukoc off the bench to offset the lack of scoring help

Everyone that won multiple chips needed juggernaut scoring help (all-time elite scorers at sidekick), except MJ..

Even Hakeem needed Drexler for one of his rings, while MJ could win with a JR Smith-caliber player as the secondary closer (Kukoc)

[3ba11]

40 games.

Less then Scottie Pippen ever did except his last year in the league.


Pippen played 44 in 98', yet MJ was still the 1 seed and won the title

And Westbrook averaged 19/7/7 this year (prime Pippen caliber).. So Lebron had 2 Pippen's and couldn't make the play-in.

Ultimately, people knocked AD this year the same way they knocked 13' Wade - people complained about 13-16' Wade because he'd fallen to peak Pippen level (21/5/5 and 21 PER).

[SouBeachTalents]

Thank god for Toni.. Seriously..

There's so many little stretches that he would take over when MJ couldn't - the 96' championship video shows three different stretches in the Finals where Kukoc went on a mini-personal run and took over - like 10 straight points or something on multiple occasions - Pippen literally never did this..

Kukoc averaged 13 ppg but he was #1 option in the 2nd half, 4th quarter and clutch aside from MJ

Ultimately, Pippen was the only sidekick that wasn't a go-to player or a threat for elite stats in any offensive category, so it was good to have a pure scorer and sniper like Kukoc off the bench to offset the lack of scoring help

Everyone that won multiple chips needed juggernaut scoring help (all-time elite scorers at sidekick), except MJ..

Even Hakeem needed Drexler for one of his rings, while MJ could win with a JR Smith-caliber player as the secondary closer (Kukoc)
Yep, one of a whopping 4 HOF's that were on those 96-98 Bulls, not even including the HOF coach. Just a ridiculously stacked team, and not that surprising they could win 55 games without Jordan.

[ShawkFactory]

Thank god for Toni.. Seriously..

There's so many little stretches that he would take over when MJ couldn't - the 96' championship video shows three different stretches in the Finals where Kukoc went on a mini-personal run and took over - like 10 straight points or something on multiple occasions - Pippen literally never did this..

Kukoc averaged 13 ppg but he was #1 option in the 2nd half, 4th quarter and clutch aside from MJ

Ultimately, Pippen was the only 90's sidekick that wasn't a go-to player or a threat for elite stats in any offensive category, so it was good to have a pure scorer and sniper like Kukoc off the bench to offset the lack of scoring help

Everyone that won multiple chips needed juggernaut scoring help (all-time elite scorers at sidekick), except MJ..

Even Hakeem needed Drexler for one of his rings, while MJ could win with a JR Smith-caliber player as the secondary closer (Kukoc)

Stop.

[FireDavidKahn]

Dude just called Westbrook as good as prime Pippen

:roll:

[3ba11]

Yep, one of a whopping 4 HOF's that were on those 96-98 Bulls, not even including the HOF coach. Just a ridiculously stacked team, and not that surprising they could win 55 games without Jordan.


Do you realize that everyone in history needed juggernaut all-time scorers as teammates (ridiculous scoring help)..... except MJ?

So you minimize scoring but that's the biggest kind of help that everyone needs to win... except MJ

Jordan didn't need the scoring help (star help), so you guys pretend that rebounding help and hustle are really what it's all about, except only MJ could win with that crap - everyone else needed juggernaut scoring help.

So don't pretend it's great help to have a bench player that made HOF for his Euro career and a 3 ppg rebounder because no one else won with that garbage

Btw, Rodman wasn't the starter in the 98' Playoffs after averaging 3/8 for the entire 97' Playoffs.. Rodman wouldn't be playable in a Lebron lineup because of the scoring help Lebron needs - he can't play 4 on 5 like MJ - only the goat can do that... this is similar to 95' Robinson, who couldn't score enough to offset Rodman and got demolished in the playoffs.

[3ba11]

Stop.


It's well-known in basketball circles that JR Smith is more talented and superior to Kukoc

JR is one of the biggest wasted talents in history but he was still a solid contributor like Kukoc.

JR played at peak Pippen caliber in the 15' ECF - 18/8 on 57% - so Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick (no carry-jobs against good teams in 2 decades of playing).

Lebron lacks the elite jumpshooting skill to carry bed-wetting teammates over good teams or carry scoring load in Finals (defeat maximum defensive attention)

[ShawkFactory]

It's well-known in basketball circles that JR Smith is more talented and superior to Kukoc



You staring at your blank white wall talking to yourself is not basketball circles.

[3ba11]

You staring at your blank white wall talking to yourself is not basketball circles.


JR is equal or greater than Kukoc - they're similar-caliber players except JR played a lot better than Kukoc ever did on many occasion

This isn't contraversial

[3ba11]

Pippen played 44 games in 98', yet MJ was still the 1 seed and won the title

And Westbrook averaged 19/7/7 this year (prime Pippen production).. So Lebron had 2 Pippen's and couldn't make the play-in.

Ultimately, people knocked AD this year the same way they knocked 13' Wade - people complained about 13-16' Wade because he'd fallen to peak Pippen level (21/5/5 and 21 PER).


fyi

[ShawkFactory]

JR is equal or greater than Kukoc - they're similar-caliber players except JR played a lot better than Kukoc ever did on many occasion

This isn't contraversial

The dude who is a career 39% shooter in the playoffs? :roll:

Yea..no.

[3ba11]

The dude who is a career 39% shooter in the playoffs? :roll:

Yea..no.


JR was a much better athlete and shooter than Kukoc - JR took 3 times as many threes at 37%, so they had the same playoff true shooting

So the previous posts stand

[3ba11]

Too bad Lebron & Westbrook lack the skills to fit together and therefore couldn't carry the team like 98' Jordan because AD is healthy now and otherwise ready for a playoff run... :confusedshrug:...

[ShawkFactory]

Oh here's another (yes..I know I don't need to do this and that you're trolling/being dishonest for some reason)

Kukoc 95-98: 19.5 PER, .193 WS/48, 4.5 BPM, 3.5 VORP

JR Smith's career high in each (career high by a significant amount in some cases; and not all of these are the same season): 18.1 PER, .126 WS/48, 2.6 BPM, 2.4 VORP

So over 4 seasons Kukoc was significantly better than JRs career best, while cherry-picking these highs from various years. Hell...he had a higher VORP in those 4 years than JR over his whole career.

:roll::roll:

[97 bulls]

So Lebron is lottery with a sidekick that performed better than Pippen ever did

And Pippen missed the same number of games in 98' so injuries aren't an excuse

Furthermore, Westbrook averaged 19/7/7 this year (prime Pippen caliber).. So Lebron had 2 Pippen's and couldn't make the play-in.

Ultimately, people knocked AD this year the same way they knocked 13' Wade - people complained about 13-16' Wade because he'd fallen to peak Pippen level (21/5/5 and 21 PER).

Bro. In another thread, you stated this:

"So Miller would average 30 just like Curry if his 3-point attempts were doubled like Curry's were"

How do you feel Pippen's numbers don't improve drastically in today's league, but Miller's would. Based on your own logic.

[3ba11]

Oh here's another (yes..I know I don't need to do this and that you're trolling/being dishonest for some reason)

95-98' Kukoc... 19.5 PER.. 0.193 WS/48.. 4.5 BPM.. 3.5 VORP

1999. Kukoc.... 18.6 PER.. 0.082 WS/48.. 3.0 BPM.. 2.0 VORP





Fixed

Similar to Pippen, Kukoc was propped up by the triangle and dynasty chemistry - otherwise, he was inferior to JR like we discussed earlier.

Kukoc was a pure shooter and could really score going left, but JR was an elite athlete that could shoot - both were ideal as bench players

[ShawkFactory]

Fixed

Similar to Pippen, Kukoc was propped up by the triangle and dynasty chemistry - otherwise, he was inferior to JR like we discussed earlier.

Kukoc was a pure shooter and could really score going left, but JR was an elite athlete that could shoot

Didn't he have some injuries in 98 and 99? Either way, those numbers in 99 are still on par with JR's CAREER HIGH :lol

Kukoc in 2001 had better numbers across the board than JRs career high too. Scored 20ppg with the Hawks, something JR never did. So...yikes.

[3ba11]

Didn't he have some injuries in 98 and 99? Either way, those numbers in 99 are still on par with JR's CAREER HIGH :lol

Kukoc in 2001 had better numbers across the board than JRs career high too. Scored 20ppg with the Hawks, something JR never did. So...yikes.


Meh.. you make some good points but what's the larger point - that Kukoc might be slightly better than the underachieving JR?.. Both were 6MOY, so they're the same caliber player.

And the original point was about closing - Jordan had 2 pure-shooting, secondary closers at one time like Kukoc and Kerr, while Lebron had a million - JR, Love, Korver, Kyrie... Yikes ..

Lebron had guys like Clarkson and Hood riding pine because the team was already stacked with Finals vets from prior year collusions

[SouBeachTalents]

Didn't he have some injuries in 98 and 99? Either way, those numbers in 99 are still on par with JR's CAREER HIGH :lol

Kukoc in 2001 had better numbers across the board than JRs career high too. Scored 20ppg with the Hawks, something JR never did. So...yikes.
https://c.tenor.com/Y0gl6YxNauIAAAAC/boom-denzel.gif

[ArbitraryWater]

Didn't he have some injuries in 98 and 99? Either way, those numbers in 99 are still on par with JR's CAREER HIGH :lol

Kukoc in 2001 had better numbers across the board than JRs career high too. Scored 20ppg with the Hawks, something JR never did. So...yikes.


Meh.. you make some good points but what's the larger point - that Kukoc might be slightly better than the underachieving JR?.. Both were 6MOY, so they're the same caliber player.

:roll::roll::roll:

[3ba11]

https://c.tenor.com/Y0gl6YxNauIAAAAC/boom-denzel.gif


Yes maybe Kukoc was slightly better than the underachieving JR, but how does that refute the original point that Jordan had 2 pure-shooting, secondary closers at one time like Kukoc and Kerr, while Lebron had a million and far superior ones - JR, Love, Korver, Kyrie... Again, everyone needed juggernaut scoring help and all-time scorers as teammates except MJ

Lebron had guys like Clarkson and Hood riding pine because the team was already stacked with Finals vets from prior year collusions.. He had the only 2-star team in the conference and a cast of Finals veterans versus newbie, 0-star teams like Horford Celtics or Oladipo Pacers

[ShawkFactory]

Yes maybe Kukoc was slightly better than the underachieving JR, but how does that refute the original point that Jordan had 2 pure-shooting, secondary closers at one time like Kukoc and Kerr, while Lebron had a million and far superior ones - JR, Love, Korver, Kyrie...

Lebron had guys like Clarkson and Hood riding pine because the team was already stacked with Finals vets from prior year collusions.. He had the only 2-star team in the conference and a cast of Finals veterans versus newbie, 0-star teams like Horford Celtics or Oladipo Pacers

Ohhhhhhh so it was a playing time thing with them that caused their numbers to go down.

You inadvertently invalidate yourself so much :lol

[3ba11]

Ohhhhhhh so it was a playing time thing with them, not fit with Lebron.

You inadvertently invalidate yourself so much :lol


Hood is an okay shooter... 37% on 4 attempts for his career.... But he hadn't been to 2-3 Finals like Shumpert, JR or Korver so he was buried on the bench... Too stacked a team to get any run

And Clarkson seems to fit well with Donovan Mitchell

[SouBeachTalents]

Hood is an okay shooter... 37% on 4 attempts for his career.... But he hadn't been to 2-3 Finals like Shumpert, JR or Korver so he was buried on the bench... Too stacked a team to get any run

And Clarkson seems to fit well with Donovan Mitchell
Shumpert missed most of the 2018 season, while Korver wasn't on the '15 or '16 Cavs, a fact you probably genuinely didn't know.

And you can literally apply this exact logic to Jordan's era, where Kerr, Harper, Longley etc. had been to 2-3 Finals while their Eastern opponents besides Orlando had virtually nobody with Finals experience on their teams.

[ShawkFactory]

Hood is an okay shooter... 37% on 4 attempts for his career.... But he hadn't been to 2-3 Finals like Shumpert, JR or Korver so he was buried on the bench... Too stacked a team to get any run

And Clarkson seems to fit well with Donovan Mitchell

No I understand the concept of what you're trying to say.

But you list Hood and Clarkston as guys that Lebron cratered. Now you're admitting that it was about playing time.

[LeGoat4Life]

No AD NO chip

[FireDavidKahn]

I thought stats were inflated in this era?

So if Westbrook put up 19/7/7 this year with horrendous defense that would equate to about 10/3/3 with horrendous defense back in MJ's days.

[2much_knowledge]

40 games.

Less then Scottie Pippen ever did except his last year in the league.

You do realize playing less games actually helps your averages look better do.you?

[Phoenix]

So Lebron is lottery with a sidekick that performed better than Pippen ever did

And Pippen missed the same number of games in 98' so injuries aren't an excuse

Furthermore, Westbrook averaged 19/7/7 this year (prime Pippen caliber).. So Lebron had 2 Pippen's and couldn't make the play-in.

Ultimately, people knocked AD this year the same way they knocked 13' Wade - people complained about 13-16' Wade because he'd fallen to peak Pippen level (21/5/5 and 21 PER).

So you've said.