Lakers were 23rd in ORTG and 17th in APG due to poor chemistry/brand - Lebron's fault

[3ba11]

Does it make sense to acquire John Stockton and then tell him to run off screens and stand in the corner??

Westbrook is supposed to dominate the ball as the starting point guard - Lebron was the only Laker that has abnormal ball-dominance for his position, so the bad teammate fits and brand of ball is his fault.

[BigKobeFan]

Does it make sense to acquire John Stockton and then tell him to run off screens and stand in the corner??

Westbrook is supposed to dominate the ball as the starting point guard - Lebron was the only Laker that has abnormal ball-dominance for his position, so the bad teammate fits and brand of ball is his fault

Bran is a cancer. Look at Kuzma. He's thriving without bran in washington when he's not relegated to standing in the corner.

Look at Monk and Reeves. They thrived when those vets, who were hired there to mentor the young, sat on the bench. There was an article a few weeks back on how Monk and Reeves are best friends because the vets made them feel like shit.

[3ba11]

Bran is a cancer. Look at Kuzma. He's thriving without bran in washington when he's not relegated to standing in the corner.

Look at Monk and Reeves. They thrived when those vets, who were hired there to mentor the young, sat on the bench. There was an article a few weeks back on how Monk and Reeves are best friends because the vets made them feel like shit.


Great point regarding Kuzma.. He was a budding star (https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-24-2021/pPs2wv.gif) but became a bum alongside a frontcourt mate that monopolized the ball

Now he's free to resume his upward trajectory without Lebron.

Lebron's frontcourt ball-dominance has always yielded low-assist teams and had weak fits with spotty-shooting ball-handlers and other player types (forwards like Kuzma, Love, Jamison, Bosh).

[ShawkFactory]

Bran is a cancer. Look at Kuzma. He's thriving without bran in washington when he's not relegated to standing in the corner.

Look at Monk and Reeves. They thrived when those vets, who were hired there to mentor the young, sat on the bench. There was an article a few weeks back on how Monk and Reeves are best friends because the vets made them feel like shit.

Is he?

[ShawkFactory]

Does it make sense to acquire John Stockton and then tell him to run off screens and stand in the corner??

.

Is that what the Lakers have done with Westbrook?

[3ba11]

Is that what the Lakers have done with Westbrook?


Everyone else fit well with Russ and made playoffs - only Lebron's skillset was a horrible fit

Yet the media is blaming Russ for being a point guard (ball-dominant) when he's supposed to do that as a point guard

Lebron is the one that's abnormally-ball-dominant, not Russ, so he should get the blame for the chemistry issues that killed this team.. Again, everyone else fit well with Russ and made playoffs - only Lebron's skillset was a horrible fit.

Ultimately, Lebron is just a natural that has been playing the same way since being a teenager and never actually went to college or let a coach implement a superior brand of ball.. Without learning good brand of ball, Lebron is a talent-based winner (team-hopper.. all-star team strategy.. can't win organically).

[ShawkFactory]

The media is blaming Russ for being a point guard (ball-dominant) when he's supposed to do that as a point guard

Lebron is the one that's abnormally-ball-dominant, not Russ, so he should get the blame for the chemistry issues that killed this team.. Everyone else fit well with Russ and made playoffs - only Lebron's skillset was a horrible fit

Fun fact: of the guys in the top 100 of time of possession only Jokic, Embiid, Giannis, Bam, and Sabonis have a higher combined elbow and post touches. Westbrook barely has any.

And while Lebron is top 20 is overall time, he's 142nd in dribbles per touch. Westbrook is like 40th. Plus Lebron plays more minutes and they are often staggered.

So in reality, when they are on the court together Westbrook IS the PG. If you watched you'd see that. Unless it's the last few possessions, in which case Bron takes over because he's better.

[RRR3]

Is he?
17.1 PPG on significantly below average efficiency is “thriving” apparently.

[3ba11]

Fun fact: of the guys in the top 100 of time of possession only Jokic, Embiid, Giannis, Bam, and Sabonis have a higher combined elbow and post touches. Westbrook barely has any.

And while Lebron is top 20 is overall time, he's 142nd in dribbles per touch. Westbrook is like 40th. Plus Lebron plays more minutes and they are often staggered.

So in reality, when they are on the court together Westbrook IS the PG. If you watched you'd see that. Unless it's the last few possessions, in which case Bron takes over because he's better.


The only "point guard stat" is hold-time (time of possession) - it's exclusive to ball-dominators/PG's

So it's statistical fact that Lebron is a 2nd player in the starting 5 with a point guard hold-time - no other team has ever had that

These 2 point guard lineups give teammates less hold-time and assists than they get in traditional 1 point guard lineups, so the TEAM has low assists and a brand that struggles on the championship level.

This is all statistical fact.

[ShawkFactory]

The only "point guard stat" is hold-time (time of possession) - it's exclusive to ball-dominators/PG's

So it's statistical fact that Lebron is a 2nd player in the starting 5 with a point guard hold-time - no other team has ever had that (frontcourt ball-dominance)

These 2 point guard lineups give teammates less hold-time and assists than they get in traditional 1 point guard lineups, so the TEAM has low assists and a brand that struggles on the championship level.

This is all statistical fact.

In your own world that you've concocted because the context doesn't line up for you, sure.

[tpols]

And while Lebron is top 20 is overall time, he's 142nd in dribbles per touch.


All that means is that he holds the ball without dribbling more than anybody in the league. No wonder the Lakers ball movement and chemistry was so bad.

[ShawkFactory]

All that means is that he holds the ball without dribbling more than anybody in the league. No wonder the Lakers ball movement and chemistry was so bad.

Unfortunately for you and your attempted argument, seconds per touch exists too. Lebron is 94th there.

[RRR3]

Always hilarious to me when people try to argue against literal facts.

[tpols]

Unfortunately for you and your attempted argument, seconds per touch exists too. Lebron is 94th there.

If a guy is tops in time possession while being at the bottom in dribbles that means hes holding the ball without dribbling. Either way we know the Lakers ball movement and assist ranking was poor despite having two triple double guys. Which speaks to terrible chemistry.

[tpols]

Seconds per touch includes time spent dribbling. Is there a stat that includes hold time per touch?

[3ba11]

In your own world that you've concocted because the context doesn't line up for you, sure.


Dribbles fall under Time of Possession (hold-time) and the Lakers are the only team with 2 starters that have a point guard hold-time

This leaves less time for everyone else

2+2=4

Teammates have less hold-time and assists in Lebron's 2 point guard lineups than they get in traditional 1 point guard lineups, so the TEAM has low assists and struggles in the Finals - the common thread in Lebron's Finals losses is massive deficits in team assists.

Lebron's frontcourt ball-dominance is simply the worst brand of all time that has ALWAYS underachieved the expectation - this isn't new.. He couldn't win the East with homecourt in 09/10, so he formed super-teams that fell from preseason favorite to Finals underdog or loser for 6 straight years (11-16').. now he's lottery out West without AD to lead the scoring (better brand).

[ShawkFactory]

Seconds per touch includes time spent dribbling. Is there a stat that includes hold time per touch?

Seconds per touch encompasses all you need. Who cares if that includes when he's dribbling? If he's holding the ball forever as you suggest but still has a lowish seconds per touch then that would mean that his dribble time is even lower than expected (which makes sense given that his dribbles are very low). Which moves the evidence further away from OPs insistence that he is also the Lakers PG.

The answer is simple. When Westbrook and Lebron were on the court together Westbrook is the PG. When it was just Lebron..he was the PG. The high number of elbow and post touches from Lebron can help back this up. As can the fact that 40% of his FG attempts came with no dribbles and 38% with less than 2 seconds of hold time (way higher than the last 2 years when he WAS the Lakers PG). This obviously changes in last possession, as Bron will be the primary in these cases.

As for team chemistry? Many factors. A big one could be that 6 of their top 9 rotation players were newcomers who had never played with each other before. Another is that Lebron and AD missed a combined 78 games. Another one is that they're old as fvck.

All of that might too much sense though so...LEBRON.

[3ba11]

Unfortunately for you and your attempted argument, seconds per touch exists too. Lebron is 94th there.


90th in points per touch btw in addition to the only 2 point guard lineups in the league (2 guys on the floor with a point guard hold-time = less hold-time & assists for teammates = low assist team)

Having 2 guys that monopolize the ball = less ball movement and lower team assists = weak chemistry and teammate fits

[ShawkFactory]

90th in points per touch btw in addition to the only 2 point guard lineups in the league (2 guys on the floor with a point guard hold-time = less hold-time & assists for teammates = low assist team)

Having 2 guys that monopolize the ball = less ball movement and lower team assists = weak chemistry and teammate fits

They are sandwiched between Atlanta/Boston and then Milwaukee in team assists. They're not bad in this area I'm not sure why you keep suggesting that they are.

[tpols]

Seconds per touch encompasses all you need. Who cares if that includes when he's dribbling? If he's holding the ball forever as you suggest but still has a lowish seconds per touch then that would mean that his dribble time is even lower than expected (which makes sense given that his dribbles are very low). Which moves the evidence further away from OPs insistence that he is also the Lakers PG.

The answer is simple. When Westbrook and Lebron were on the court together Westbrook is the PG. When it was just Lebron..he was the PG. The high number of elbow and post touches from Lebron can help back this up. As can the fact that 40% of his FG attempts came with no dribbles and 38% with less than 2 seconds of hold time (way higher than the last 2 years when he WAS the Lakers PG). This obviously changes in last possession, as Bron will be the primary in these cases.

As for team chemistry? Many factors. A big one could be that 6 of their top 9 rotation players were newcomers who had never played with each other before. Another is that Lebron and AD missed a combined 78 games. Another one is that they're old as fvck.

All of that might too much sense though so...LEBRON.

I'm looking at the time of possession stat and LeBron and Westbrook are the only two players in the top 20 that are on the same team. Everybody else is point guards from separate teams.

Two guys that traditionally get a lot of dimes on one team. You don't think this showed poor chemistry to have such a bad assist rank?

[ShawkFactory]

I'm looking at the time of possession stat and LeBron and Westbrook are the only two players in the top 20 that are on the same team. Everybody else is point guards from separate teams.

Two guys that traditionally get a lot of dimes on one team. You don't think this showed poor chemistry to have such a bad assist rank?

I'm not really sure why people are refusing to understand the way Lebron and Westbrook were staggered. It's weird that I've had to say this 3 times now: When both were on the floor together...RUSS WAS THE PG. Lebron's numbers when it comes to elbow/post touches and % of field goals that come within 2 seconds of touching the ball and without dribbling back this up. These are way higher than the last couple years when Lebron was the true PG. Westbrook was feeding him, not the other way around.

When Westbrook sat...BRON WAS THE PG. There is literally no one else on the roster who can play point..so this makes sense and is a smart way for the Lakers to handle them.

[3ba11]

They are sandwiched between Atlanta/Boston and then Milwaukee in team assists. They're not bad in this area I'm not sure why you keep suggesting that they are.


The typical champion is 6th in assists, while Lebron's teams average 16th for his career

The common thread in his Finals losses is massive deficits in team assists... Nearly double in some cases

That's a lot of evidence and teams that beat Lebron are always known for superior ball movement and brand of ball (Spurs, Warriors, Mavs, Magic, Suns)

There's an entire branch of superior basketball (ball movement, high team assists) that Lebron's frontcourt ball-dominant skillset can't play

[ShawkFactory]

The typical champion is 6th in assists, while Lebron's teams average 16th for his career

The common thread in his Finals losses is massive deficits in team assists... Nearly double in some cases

That's a lot of evidence and teams that beat Lebron are always known for superior ball movement and brand of ball (Spurs, Warriors, Mavs, Magic, Suns)

29th in team assists in 09

[3ba11]

29th in team assists in 09


Magic out-assisted Cavs in their 09' upset

They moved the ball and "got hot" like ball movement teams always do to Lebron's teams

There's an entire branch of superior basketball (ball movement, high team assists) that Lebron's frontcourt ball-dominant skillset can't play

[ShawkFactory]

Magic out-assisted Cavs in their 09' upset

There's an entire branch of superior basketball (ball movement, high team assists) that Lebron's frontcourt ball-dominant skillset can't play

0.6 APG is not a large enough difference to conclude anything.

The heat out-assisted the Mavs by 1.3 a game in the finals in 2011.

Your logic is one again not matching up.

[StrongLurk]

0.6 APG is not a large enough difference to conclude anything.

The heat out-assisted the Mavs by 1.3 a game in the finals in 2011.

Your logic is one again not matching up.

You are wasting your time.

[3ba11]

I'm not really sure why people are refusing to understand the way Lebron and Westbrook were staggered. It's weird that I've had to say this 3 times now: When both were on the floor together...RUSS WAS THE PG. Lebron's numbers when it comes to elbow/post touches and % of field goals that come within 2 seconds of touching the ball and without dribbling back this up. These are way higher than the last couple years when Lebron was the true PG. Westbrook was feeding him, not the other way around.

When Westbrook sat...BRON WAS THE PG. There is literally no one else on the roster who can play point..so this makes sense and is a smart way for the Lakers to handle them.


It's obvious that 2 guys cannot bring the ball up at once.

But in halfcourt sets, both Lebron and Westbrook primarily use a point guard style to score - this includes live dribbles, high screen roll, and other high hold-time endeavors (and low points-per-touch)

Ultimately, having 2 guys with point guard hold-time gives teammates less hold-time and assists, so the TEAM has low assists..

There's an entire branch of superior basketball (ball movement, high team assists) that Lebron's frontcourt ball-dominance can't play (inferior skillset to the goat-level that allows the best brand & team ceiling)

[ShawkFactory]

You are wasting your time.

I know.

[tpols]

0.6 APG is not a large enough difference to conclude anything.

The heat out-assisted the Mavs by 1.3 a game in the finals in 2011.

Your logic is one again not matching up.

The fact that literally almost every single team out assisted Lebrons teams when they beat them matters. The Spurs, Celtics, Magic, Mavericks, Warriors, and Suns all out assisted his teams. If you dont think this is indicative of a problem with chemistry and ball movement then that's on you.

The fact that a 29th assist ranked team out assisted Lebrons 66 win Cavs team is even more of an indictment on poor brand of ball than all those other teams who were way better ball movement teams.

[ShawkFactory]

The fact that literally almost every single team out assisted Lebrons teams when they beat them matters. The Spurs, Celtics, Magic, Mavericks, Warriors, and Suns all out assisted his teams. If you dont think this is indicative of a problem with chemistry and ball movement then that's on you. The fact that a 29th assist ranked team out assisted Lebrons 66 win Cavs team is even more of an indictment on poor brand of ball than all those other teams who were way better ball movement teams.

Or it could just mean that the 1st and 29th ranked teams were separated by less than 5 assists a game, and that anything can happen over the course of a 6 game sample. Particularly when the matchup is in one team's favor as it was for the Magic (far more size on the perimeter and no one to handle Dwight).

You guys read too much into things sometimes. I know that it's easy to just say LEBRON but there are a lot of factors that go into these things. Some of them are even external.

[3ba11]

0.6 APG is not a large enough difference to conclude anything.

The heat out-assisted the Mavs by 1.3 a game in the finals in 2011.

Your logic is one again not matching up.


Finding a couple exceptions only confirms the fact that Lebron's low-assist teams typically get massively out-assisted in the Finals - a feat that is just as unique as Lebron's frontcourt ball-dominance.. :confusedshrug:

He fields low-assist teams that are well-below the typical champion and he gets beat by teams with better ball movement and brand of ball.

Lebron should be known for bad brand of ball and that would explain this season and many previous seasons where he inexplicably needed moar help..

But fans and media don't understand brand of ball, while players are largely robots executing a strategy - they lack the perspective to have a philosophical understanding and determine exactly why things happened the way they did - this does infact require a philosophical understanding

[ShawkFactory]

Finding a couple exceptions only confirms the fact that Lebron's low-assist teams typically get massively out-assisted in the Finals - a feat that is just as unique as Lebron's frontcourt ball-dominance.. :confusedshrug:

He fields low-assist teams that are well-below the typical champion and he gets beat by teams with better ball movement and brand of ball.

Lebron should be known for bad brand of ball and that would explain this season and many previous seasons where he inexplicably needed moar help..

But fans and media don't understand brand of ball, while players are largely robots executing a strategy - they lack the perspective to have a philosophical understanding and determine exactly why things happened the way they did - this does infact require a philosophical understanding

Literally 2 of the 5 examples you used :lol

[3ba11]

Literally 2 of the 5 examples you used :lol


Routinely getting massively out-assisted is unique to Lebron's frontcourt ball-dominance

He was massively out-assisted in 4 of 6 Finals losses and out-assisted in the 07' sweep too, so that's 5 of 6, while the 11' choke is a crazy one-off - getting out-assisted is obviously the constant theme in his losses, so you're wrong



:lol


Lebron fields low-assist teams that are well-below the typical champion and he gets beat by teams with better ball movement and brand of ball.

Lebron should be known for bad brand of ball and that would explain this season and many previous seasons where he inexplicably needed moar help..

But fans and media don't understand brand of ball, while players are largely robots executing a strategy - they lack the perspective to have a philosophical understanding of why things happened the way they did - this does infact require a philosophical understanding

[Ne 1]

A lot wrong here like a lot of your posts. The Lakers had poor chemistry because of injuries and constant shuffling of lineups. They had 41 different starting 5s…in 82 games. Regardless the roster is poorly constructed.

Using Stockton as an example to try and prove your point when he’s a career Robin and a loser is counterintuitive.

Russ DID dominate the ball. He shouldn’t have to have a usage rate of 33+% to be effective. That’s a flawed basketball player. Even still that doesn’t excuse the horrible shooting, missed layups, lack of defense, the turnovers, etc. If Russ didn’t have the ball AND still averaged 4 turnovers then he is garbage and should probably be a bench player for the rest of his days.

[HoopsNY]

Is he?


17.1 PPG on significantly below average efficiency is “thriving” apparently.

Depends on how you look at it. I think the claim that LeBron diminishes from role players and co-stars is sometimes exaggerated, but it does hold some merit.

Kuzma started off slow but he was on a new team. Theoretically there is some adjustment period. Though, over his final 35 games with WAS, he put up 21/9/4/1/1 on 57% TS%. He was also one of the best clutch performers and has shown some promise. I think it's safe to say that that doesn't happen alongside LeBron this season, at any capacity.

[Indian guy]

Though, over his final 35 games with WAS, he put up 21/9/4/1/1 on 57% TS%.

Holy cherry picking :oldlol:. Guy played 66 games and you've narrowed his season down to almost half the games. 35 games where Wizards went 12-23, btw. Washington had a better win % without him this season.


I think it's safe to say that that doesn't happen alongside LeBron, at any capacity.

Kuzma's career high of 19 ppg came in 2019 alongside, you guessed it, LeBron.

For the record, I think Kuzma's complete trash and I don't think he did a damn thing to dispel his trash status in Washington. Mediocre numbers on mediocre efficiency on a bad team is who he is. He had a net on/off rating of -5.3 this season. The worst of any rotation player on Washington.

[RRR3]

Depends on how you look at it. I think the claim that LeBron diminishes from role players and co-stars is sometimes exaggerated, but it does hold some merit.

Kuzma started off slow but he was on a new team. Theoretically there is some adjustment period. Though, over his final 35 games with WAS, he put up 21/9/4/1/1 on 57% TS%. He was also one of the best clutch performers and has shown some promise. I think it's safe to say that that doesn't happen alongside LeBron this season, at any capacity.
Yikes you look desperate. Indian guy already slayed you though no need for me to embarrass you further.

[ShawkFactory]

Holy cherry picking :oldlol:. Guy played 66 games and you've narrowed his season down to almost half the games. 35 games where Wizards went 12-23, btw. Washington had a better win % without him this season.



Kuzma's career high of 19 ppg came in 2019 alongside, you guessed it, LeBron.

For the record, I think Kuzma's complete trash and I don't think he did a damn thing to dispel his trash status in Washington. Mediocre numbers on mediocre efficiency on a bad team is who he is. He had a net on/off rating of -5.3 this season. The worst of any rotation player on Washington.

He’s not trash. He’s a nice piece off the bench on a contending team (maybe a starter on a lower end one) who can score well in spurts and somewhat disrupt with his length. Very solid on the glass too.

And he’s what he is now on an bad team.

Some try to make him out as more than that though. This Lebron narrative has gone on so long that people seem to be fully convinced that guys should be doing exactly the same things or putting up the same numbers regardless of what team they’re on. It’s just not how it works.

[SpaceJam]

Kuzma had a better year the first season with Bron :oldlol:

Less minutes, less shots because of the AD acquisition. So glad he is thriving on the 35-47 Washington Wizards. Star status

[3ba11]

A lot wrong here like a lot of your posts. The Lakers had poor chemistry because of injuries and constant shuffling of lineups. They had 41 different starting 5s…in 82 games. Regardless the roster is poorly constructed.

Using Stockton as an example to try and prove your point when he’s a career Robin and a loser is counterintuitive.

Russ DID dominate the ball. He shouldn’t have to have a usage rate of 33+% to be effective. That’s a flawed basketball player. Even still that doesn’t excuse the horrible shooting, missed layups, lack of defense, the turnovers, etc. If Russ didn’t have the ball AND still averaged 4 turnovers then he is garbage and should probably be a bench player for the rest of his days.



2022

Westbrook....... 3.8 TO's..... 6.3 minutes hold-time
Lebron.............. 3.5 TO's.... 6.2 minutes hold-time


Lebron and Russ both dominated the ball with high turnovers and Lebron is #1 all-time in turnovers.

Lebron is the only frontcourt ball-dominator in the league, so his teams have unique lineups with 2 guys that play a point guard role - i.e. Lebron and the regular PG like Chalmers, Kyrie, Westbrook or Rondo.

With 2 guys playing a ball-dominant role when they catch the ball, Lebron's teams are the most ball-dominant in the league and therefore require the most help, including great shooters, all-time scorers at sidekick, and elite scorers at 3rd option.

Ultimately, players that play a point guard role (live-dribbling, aka ball-domination) cannot be assisted by teammates - so Lebron's teams always have less assist targets/assist capacity because Lebron isn't an assist target and neither is Russ - that's 2 non-assist-targets on 1 team.

[Phoenix]

Does it make sense to acquire John Stockton and then tell him to run off screens and stand in the corner??

Westbrook is supposed to dominate the ball as the starting point guard - Lebron was the only Laker that has abnormal ball-dominance for his position, so the bad teammate fits and brand of ball is his fault.

3ball today: ball dominant PGs stifle 'brand of ball'

Also 3ball today, an hour later in a different thread: the PG is 'supposed' to dominate the ball.

Is this what multiple personality disorder look like? Because you make points so contradictory to each other that it's hard to believe they're not from two completely different people.

[nayte]

3ball today: ball dominant PGs stifle 'brand of ball'

Also 3ball today, an hour later in a different thread: the PG is 'supposed' to dominate the ball.

Is this what multiple personality disorder look like? Because you make points so contradictory to each other that it's hard to believe they're not from two completely different people.

How do u not get tired of it?

[k0kakw0rld]

Bran is a cancer. Look at Kuzma. He's thriving without bran in washington when he's not relegated to standing in the corner.

Look at Monk and Reeves. They thrived when those vets, who were hired there to mentor the young, sat on the bench. There was an article a few weeks back on how Monk and Reeves are best friends because the vets made them feel like shit.

He is missing the playoffs in the East.

[Phoenix]

How do u not get tired of it?

It's humorous to a point, but I honestly think it's a cry for help and this board feeds an extremely unhealthy obsession for that guy.

[3ba11]

3ball today: ball dominant PGs stifle 'brand of ball'

Also 3ball today, an hour later in a different thread: the PG is 'supposed' to dominate the ball.

Is this what multiple personality disorder look like? Because you make points so contradictory to each other that it's hard to believe they're not from two completely different people.


Only Lebron's ball-dominance is abnormal for his position

it's the two-PG lineups that are suboptimal.. Westbrook's ball-dominance is standard for a PG - it's the big man dominating the ball that is redundant with the PG and therefore a problem.... Lebron is the problem

[nayte]

It's humorous to a point, but I honestly think it's a cry for help and this board feeds an extremely unhealthy obsession for that guy.

I get the humorous part.not sure with the rest.so many alts it's hard lol.either way your points are usually pretty good

[Phoenix]

Only Lebron's ball-dominance is abnormal for his position

it's the two-PG lineups that are suboptimal.. Westbrook's ball-dominance is standard for a PG - it's the big man dominating the ball that is redundant with the PG and therefore a problem.... Lebron is the problem

No. On multiple occasions you've said ball-dominant PGs aren't a good brand of ball. Specially you've cited guys like Stockton, Magic, Harden, Luka. Nothing about 'two PG lineups', that's your typical sleight of hand to moonwalk around the contradiction of your views when pointed out.

[3ba11]

3ball today: ball dominant PGs stifle 'brand of ball'

Also 3ball today, an hour later in a different thread: the PG is 'supposed' to dominate the ball.

Is this what multiple personality disorder look like? Because you make points so contradictory to each other that it's hard to believe they're not from two completely different people.


You're lying about what I said - gaslighting like a bitch.. you're probably getting f*cked in the ass tonight and every night

I never said PG's stifle brand

I said two-PG lineups stifle brand like Lebron's lineups as a frontcourt ball-dominator

You support a fraud because you're dumb.. plain and simple... And a massive bitch apparently

[Phoenix]

I get the humorous part.not sure with the rest.so many alts it's hard lol.either way your points are usually pretty good

Well let's put this way, any decently run board wouldn't tolerate any of the incessant trolling. I mean a little trash talk and trolling is harmless, but this board used to have some good, genuine posters who have fukked off elsewhere because of all the alts, and redundant topics about 3-4 people.

[3ba11]

Well let's put this way, any decently run board wouldn't tolerate any of the incessant trolling. I mean a little trash talk and trolling is harmless, but this board used to have some good, genuine posters who have fukked off elsewhere because of all the alts, and redundant topics about 3-4 people.


You're purposely derailing a thread by lying.

You hate that you fell for the Lebron fraud that much?

Or you're just that dumb and can't differentiate 1 from 2 (PG lineup)

[Phoenix]

You're lying about what I said - gaslighting like a bitch.. you're probably getting f*cked in the ass tonight and every night

I never said PG's stifle brand

I said two-PG lineups stifle brand like Lebron's lineups as a frontcourt ball-dominator

You support a fraud because you're dumb.. plain and simple... And a massive bitch apparently

Interesting that of all the things you could have said, you choose that. Rather telling....

Nope, on multiple occasions you've spoken to ball dominant PGs causing any inferior brand of ball. This is in your own post history you fukking clown. Why else would you call out names like Magic, Stockton or Luka? None of them played with another ball-dominant PG so they wouldn't fall under the 'two PG lineup' bullshit you're now trying to peddle.

Further, I'm no Lebron fan. I just don't spend my days and nights obsessing over what he does because you feel some personal obligation to protect MJ's legacy. And I say that AS an MJ fan, which I seriously doubt you actually are.

You got caught out again, bitch.

https://i.gifer.com/origin/64/6456fda8fb5568a8d36f74619e4ab94b_w200.gif

[nayte]

Well let's put this way, any decently run board wouldn't tolerate any of the incessant trolling. I mean a little trash talk and trolling is harmless, but this board used to have some good, genuine posters who have fukked off elsewhere because of all the alts, and redundant topics about 3-4 people.

Yeah def agree with this.i joined for the fun 2011 finals there were trolls then but they were funny .and were knowledgeable posters then kblaze is about the last from then..

[Phoenix]

You're purposely derailing a thread by lying.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b2/79/66/b27966140db68d0621628f2309f8a443.gif



Awww crying about his thread getting derailed. :(

https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/enhanced/web03/2012/10/25/13/anigif_enhanced-buzz-15131-1351187087-4.gif

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https://media2.giphy.com/media/4ayiIWaq2VULC/giphy.gif

Fukk you, 3bitch.

[3ba11]

Interesting that of all the things you could have said, you choose that. Rather telling....

Nope, on multiple occasions you've spoken to ball dominant PGs causing any inferior brand of ball.






Nope you're lying

Only 2-PG lineups and I've infact always advocated for Lebron to play PG to avoid the 2-PG lineups that his frontcourt ball-dominance causes.

Infact, this is my biggest copy-paste (probably 2000 times):

Lebron starts at forward but then becomes a 2nd point guard on the floor (2nd player with a point guard hold-time).. These 2 point guard lineups give teammates less hold-time and assists than they get in traditional 1 point guard lineups, so the TEAM has low assists and a brand that struggles on the Finals level.. now go suck a dic u gaslighting c.unt

[Phoenix]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b2/79/66/b27966140db68d0621628f2309f8a443.gif


:sleeping

Didn't read.

[Phoenix]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b2/79/66/b27966140db68d0621628f2309f8a443.gif
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https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b2/79/66/b27966140db68d0621628f2309f8a443.gif

Cry some moar, 3bitch :oldlol:

[3ba11]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b2/79/66/b27966140db68d0621628f2309f8a443.gif
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b2/79/66/b27966140db68d0621628f2309f8a443.gif
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b2/79/66/b27966140db68d0621628f2309f8a443.gif
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b2/79/66/b27966140db68d0621628f2309f8a443.gif

Cry some moar, 3bitch :oldlol:


#2001 (including link):

Lebron starts at forward but then becomes a 2nd point guard on the floor (2nd player with a point guard hold-time (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1)).. These 2 point guard lineups give teammates less hold-time and assists than they get in traditional 1 point guard lineups, so the TEAM has low assists and a brand that struggles on the Finals level.. (teammates do infact see lower hold-time & assists in lebron's 2 PG lineups)

[Phoenix]

#2001 (including link):

Lebron starts at forward but then becomes a 2nd point guard on the floor (2nd player with a point guard hold-time (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches/?sort=TIME_OF_POSS&dir=1)).. These 2 point guard lineups give teammates less hold-time and assists than they get in traditional 1 point guard lineups, so the TEAM has low assists and a brand that struggles on the Finals level..

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b2/79/66/b27966140db68d0621628f2309f8a443.gif
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b2/79/66/b27966140db68d0621628f2309f8a443.gif
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b2/79/66/b27966140db68d0621628f2309f8a443.gif
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b2/79/66/b27966140db68d0621628f2309f8a443.gif

Don't care what you have to say, liar. You'll stop before I do.

[nayte]

I wish I knew how to post the long cat that was used back then

[3ba11]

Don't care what you have to say, liar. You'll stop before I do.





2 PG lineup = low assist team... :dancin:


Forwards are normally big assist targets but Lebron isn't, which lowers the relative assist capacity of his teams

[Phoenix]

https://c.tenor.com/QWmyn41waMUAAAAC/broken-record.gif


https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b2/79/66/b27966140db68d0621628f2309f8a443.gif
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b2/79/66/b27966140db68d0621628f2309f8a443.gif

:hammertime:

It's your thread bud. Copy and pasting is easy, you would know. :cheers:

[Phoenix]

This is what 3bitch has said( paraphrasing) countless times and any number of posters here can confirm:

"Ball dominant PGs like Lebron/Harden/Luka/Stockon/Magic etc are an inferior brand of ball which lowers the team ceiling, requiring talent-based winning that gets exposed at the championship level against organic teamwork"

3bitch has said some version of the above 1000 times without saying ANYTHING about a '2 PG lineup' because guys like Magic, Stockton and Luka were never in '2 PG lineups'( ( think Magic played close to a two PG role with Norm Nixon for like, what, the first 2 years of his career?)....hence you know he's full of shit.

Now let's see someone OTHER than 3bitch argue that he hasn't said some version of this countless times on this forum, practically word for word to the point that you can pretty much parrot it. That's how much he's spammed the same shit over and over again.

[RRR3]

This is what 3bitch has said( paraphrasing) countless times and any number of posters here can confirm:

"Ball dominant PGs like Lebron/Harden/Luka/Stockon/Magic etc are an inferior brand of ball which lowers the team ceiling, requiring talent-based winning that gets exposed at the championship level against organic teamwork"

3bitch has said some version of the above 1000 times without saying ANYTHING about a '2 PG lineup' because guys like Magic, Stockton and Luka were never in '2 PG lineups'( ( think Magic played close to a two PG role with Norm Nixon for like, what, the first 2 years of his career?)....hence you know he's full of shit.

Now let's see someone OTHER than 3bitch argue that he hasn't said some version of this countless times on this forum, practically word for word to the point that you can pretty much parrot it. That's how much he's spammed the same shit over and over again.
He literally can’t admit when he’s wrong and he’s wrong constantly. Horrible combination.

[Johnny32]

Lol no need to read past the second page. The tards got their shit pushed in...deep and hard.

[Johnny32]

Depends on how you look at it. I think the claim that LeBron diminishes from role players and co-stars is sometimes exaggerated, but it does hold some merit.

Kuzma started off slow but he was on a new team. Theoretically there is some adjustment period. Though, over his final 35 games with WAS, he put up 21/9/4/1/1 on 57% TS%. He was also one of the best clutch performers and has shown some promise. I think it's safe to say that that doesn't happen alongside LeBron this season, at any capacity.

Lol kuzma's role changed with the wiz injuries and trades lol clown.

[Airupthere]

If only the lakers had a true leader that let everyone play well instead of ruining team chemistry so that he can statpad while taking time off.

[1987_Lakers]

This is what 3bitch has said( paraphrasing) countless times and any number of posters here can confirm:

"Ball dominant PGs like Lebron/Harden/Luka/Stockon/Magic etc are an inferior brand of ball which lowers the team ceiling, requiring talent-based winning that gets exposed at the championship level against organic teamwork"

3bitch has said some version of the above 1000 times without saying ANYTHING about a '2 PG lineup' because guys like Magic, Stockton and Luka were never in '2 PG lineups'( ( think Magic played close to a two PG role with Norm Nixon for like, what, the first 2 years of his career?)....hence you know he's full of shit.

Now let's see someone OTHER than 3bitch argue that he hasn't said some version of this countless times on this forum, practically word for word to the point that you can pretty much parrot it. That's how much he's spammed the same shit over and over again.

I've called him out so much on his constant contradictions and lies. He's too dumb to see he is pretty much a meme on this forum.

[3ba11]

This is what 3bitch has said( paraphrasing) countless times and any number of posters here can confirm:

"Ball dominant PGs like Lebron/Harden/Luka/Stockon/Magic etc are an inferior brand of ball which lowers the team ceiling, requiring talent-based winning that gets exposed at the championship level against organic teamwork"

3bitch has said some version of the above 1000 times without saying ANYTHING about a '2 PG lineup' because guys like Magic, Stockton and Luka were never in '2 PG lineups'( ( think Magic played close to a two PG role with Norm Nixon for like, what, the first 2 years of his career?)....hence you know he's full of shit.

Now let's see someone OTHER than 3bitch argue that he hasn't said some version of this countless times on this forum, practically word for word to the point that you can pretty much parrot it. That's how much he's spammed the same shit over and over again.


You guys are just poorly educated so you can't understand arguments

The historical record shows that ball-dominators or PG's win less than off-ball players and need more help, but it's even worse for 2 point guard lineups like Lebron's..

Lebron's 2 point guard lineups are a double whammy of ball-dominance that needs goat help.. No one in history has needed more help than Lebron because he has 2 point guard lineups - they give teammates less hold-time and assists than they get in traditional 1 point guard lineups, so the TEAM has low assists and struggles on the championship level.

I guess 3 point guard lineups would be even worse but so far Lebron's 2 point guard lineups take the cake for the worst brand ever that needs the most help ever.. frontcourt ball-dominance = woat brand

[RRR3]

I've called him out so much on his constant contradictions and lies. He's too dumb to see he is pretty much a meme on this forum.
He’s so stupid I can’t understand how he functions in everyday life. Would not be surprised if he legit has trouble figuring out how to turn on a computer.

[3ba11]

He’s so stupid I can’t understand how he functions in everyday life. Would not be surprised if he legit has trouble figuring out how to turn on a computer.


^^^ imagine being so mad that 3ball was right about Lebron

you learned bball 101, aka 2 point guard lineups equals low team assists and are a suboptimal woat brand that requires goat help

[ShawkFactory]

This is what 3bitch has said( paraphrasing) countless times and any number of posters here can confirm:

"Ball dominant PGs like Lebron/Harden/Luka/Stockon/Magic etc are an inferior brand of ball which lowers the team ceiling, requiring talent-based winning that gets exposed at the championship level against organic teamwork"

3bitch has said some version of the above 1000 times without saying ANYTHING about a '2 PG lineup' because guys like Magic, Stockton and Luka were never in '2 PG lineups'( ( think Magic played close to a two PG role with Norm Nixon for like, what, the first 2 years of his career?)....hence you know he's full of shit.

Now let's see someone OTHER than 3bitch argue that he hasn't said some version of this countless times on this forum, practically word for word to the point that you can pretty much parrot it. That's how much he's spammed the same shit over and over again.

Lol yea the Lakers 2 PG lineups in the early 80s led the league in assists every year.

[3ba11]

Lol yea the Lakers 2 PG lineups in the early 80s led the league in assists every year.


Time of possession (hold-time) is the math that drives and confirms this theory

We don't have hold-time stats for Magic and Norm, so we don't know if they were infact 2 guys with a point guard hold-time.

Otoh, we have the hold-time stats for today's 2 point guard lineups like Harden/CP3 or Luka/DSJ or Lebron's lineups - they're all horrifically low in team assists - this is magnified in the Finals where Lebron's 2 point guard lineups are the only team in Finals history to get MASSIVELY out-assisted by the opponent regularly

Btw, I think there's something about having an all-time center leading the team that affects the Lakers' assist numbers, and also the fact that Magic is the goat passer, which includes being the goat QUICK passer (upon the catch).. His goat passing (quick passing) trickled down to teammates - the whole team was diming

[Phoenix]

You guys are just poorly educated so you can't understand arguments

The historical record shows that ball-dominators or PG's win less than off-ball players and need more help, but it's even worse for 2 point guard lineups like Lebron's..

Lebron's 2 point guard lineups are a double whammy of ball-dominance that needs goat help.. No one in history has needed more help than Lebron because he has 2 point guard lineups - they give teammates less hold-time and assists than they get in traditional 1 point guard lineups, so the TEAM has low assists and struggles on the championship level.

I guess 3 point guard lineups would be even worse but so far Lebron's 2 point guard lineups take the cake for the worst brand ever that needs the most help ever.. frontcourt ball-dominance = woat brand

Didn't read past the first sentence. You don't get to twist your words into something else and then play the 'you're just uneducated' schtick. You're just a conniving, lying little bitch. That's the historical record, over 30,000 posts worth of it.

[3ba11]

Didn't read past the first sentence. You don't get to twist your words into something else and then play the 'you're just uneducated' schtick. You're just a conniving, lying little bitch. That's the historical record, over 30,000 posts worth of it.


There's 1 team in the NBA that has 2 guys in the top 20 for hold-time..

Can you guess which team it is?

2 PG lineups = low team assists

Deal with it

[3ba11]

.
Thread Cliffs


2 point guard lineups are lineups where 2 guys have a point guard hold-time - this gives teammates less hold-time and assists than they get in traditional 1 point guard lineups, so the TEAM has low assists and a brand that gets ragdolled in the Finals

we have the hold-time stats for today's 2 point guard lineups like Harden/CP3 or Luka/DSJ or Lebron's lineups - they're all horrifically low in team assists - this is magnified in the Finals where Lebron's 2 point guard lineups are the only team in Finals history to get MASSIVELY out-assisted regularly

[Phoenix]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b2/79/66/b27966140db68d0621628f2309f8a443.gif
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http://mrwgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Deal-With-It-Jack-Nicholson-Gif.gif
3bitch.

[Phoenix]

Thread cliffs

3ball's a bitch. As you were....

[tpols]

Thread cliffs

3ball's a bitch. As you were....

Youre doing a disservice to the spirit of basketball debate and Inside Hoops in general by just spamming one liners and gifs as counter arguments. Its extremely childish behavior. Lashing out with four word sentences in response to an intellectual answer.

At the end of the day, it is true that these westbrook LeBron types get tons of assists and are said to be legendary passers yet their teams always have poor assist totals. Especially H2H in the playoffs against teams that know how to move the ball.

It is an indictment on their teams offenses, chemistry, and ball movement. Stocktons Jazz were an elite top ranked assist team. #1 and #2 in their 1997 and 1998 Finals runs respectively. Magic led GOAT #1 ranked assist teams. LeBron never led any teams with those assist ranks in his entire career. And generally they had shit ranks.

You need to come with a correct argument son.

[Phoenix]

Youre doing a disservice to the spirit of basketball debate and Inside Hoops in general by just spamming one liners and gifs as counter arguments. Its extremely childish behavior. Lashing out with four word sentences in response to an intellectual answer.

At the end of the day, it is true that these westbrook LeBron types get tons of assists and are said to be legendary passers yet their teams always have poor assist totals. Especially H2H in the playoffs against teams that know how to move the ball.

It is an indictment on their teams offenses, chemistry, and ball movement. Stocktons Jazz were an elite top ranked assist team. #1 and #2 in their 1997 and 1998 Finals runs respectively. Magic led GOAT #1 ranked assist teams. LeBron never led any teams with those assist ranks in his entire career. And generally they had shit ranks.

You need to come with a correct argument son.

As opposed to 3bitch spamming the same redundant, tired ass threads day in, day out? Go find Reggie Miller's ORTG page on basketball reference, grab some jerkins and a tissue and have at it. People who engage in the kind of intellectually dishonest bullshit that 3ball does don't warrant anything but spamming bullshit back at him. This forum lost any sense of decency years ago, fukk outta here with your soap box bullshit.

What you perceive as childish behaviour spamming gifs? Ok well.....

http://25.media.tumblr.com/ac2f56b52d69915f417e333aee38d824/tumblr_mn2cxvN3Op1rq7z94o1_400.gif

[Phoenix]

Magic led GOAT #1 ranked assist teams. LeBron never led any teams with those assist ranks in his entire career. And generally they had shit ranks.



Except Magic is actually one of the players 3bitch calls a 'ball dominator' and requiring superior talent to win. So in your haste to stick your finger up his ass in defense, maybe you should make yourself aware of some of the arguments he's made that you're now speaking in contrast to.

[ShawkFactory]

Youre doing a disservice to the spirit of basketball debate and Inside Hoops in general by just spamming one liners and gifs as counter arguments. Its extremely childish behavior. Lashing out with four word sentences in response to an intellectual answer.

At the end of the day, it is true that these westbrook LeBron types get tons of assists and are said to be legendary passers yet their teams always have poor assist totals. Especially H2H in the playoffs against teams that know how to move the ball.

It is an indictment on their teams offenses, chemistry, and ball movement. Stocktons Jazz were an elite top ranked assist team. #1 and #2 in their 1997 and 1998 Finals runs respectively. Magic led GOAT #1 ranked assist teams. LeBron never led any teams with those assist ranks in his entire career. And generally they had shit ranks.

You need to come with a correct argument son.

What the actual fvck is this post :roll:

This should be now in the textbook for both irony and lack of awareness.

2018 Houston is another good one. 2 PGs and 67 wins and without the CP3 injury they probably win a title.

[3ba11]

What the actual fvck is this post :roll:

This should be now in the textbook for both irony and lack of awareness.

2018 Houston is another good one. 2 PGs and 67 wins and without the CP3 injury they probably win a title.


How did those Rockets rank in assists?

Ball-dominators need more help than off-ball players

And lineups with two ball-dominators (bron-ball) are insanely suboptimal (low team assists) and require goat help

[Phoenix]

What the actual fvck is this post :roll:

This should be now in the textbook for both irony and lack of awareness.

Lol yeah, me spamming a baby's gif for an afternoon has completely killed basketball debate here, not the endlessly tiresome spamming of the exact same points over thousands of threads, combined with what is likely 10 actual distinct posters( and about 100 alts) talking about 3 players. All of that is top-notch, intellectually honest basketball discussion apparently.

[3ba11]

Lol yeah, me spamming a baby's gif for an afternoon has completely killed basketball debate here, not the endlessly tiresome spamming of the exact same points over thousands of threads, combined with what is likely 10 actual distinct posters( and about 100 alts) talking about 3 players. All of that is top-notch, intellectually honest basketball discussion apparently.


You lack maturity and character

That's the issue - no one wants some immature little kiddy virgin on a forum that spams baby pics

[Phoenix]

You lack maturity and character
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b2/79/66/b27966140db68d0621628f2309f8a443.gif
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b2/79/66/b27966140db68d0621628f2309f8a443.gif
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b2/79/66/b27966140db68d0621628f2309f8a443.gif
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b2/79/66/b27966140db68d0621628f2309f8a443.gif


'You lack maturity and character'

Says the lying little c'unt.

[3ba11]

'You lack maturity and character'

Says the lying little c'unt.


I added that last part as extra troll... :lol:.. it worked

I had to get you back for getting me rattled yesterday

I almost added the word integrity - that's another area people don't like to fall short in

[Phoenix]

I added that last part as extra troll... :lol:.. it worked

I had to get you back for getting me rattled yesterday



:kobe:

[tpols]

What the actual fvck is this post :roll:

This should be now in the textbook for both irony and lack of awareness.

2018 Houston is another good one. 2 PGs and 67 wins and without the CP3 injury they probably win a title.

The 2018 Rockets were the 26th rank assist team. In 2019? 28th rank assist team. They burnt out both times.

Go look at the assist ranks of the 80s Lakers... 80s Celtics... 90s Bulls... 00s Lakers... 00s or 10s Spurs... 10s Warriors. Even the current suns. All top ranked assist teams.

Dynasties don't happen without ball movement and chess level play. You don't understand basketball or even anything for that matter.

[ShawkFactory]

How did those Rockets rank in assists?

Ball-dominators need more help than off-ball players

And lineups with two ball-dominators (bron-ball) are insanely suboptimal (low team assists) and require goat help

Poorly. Like many contending teams today and in the past.

[3ba11]

Poorly. Like many contending teams today and in the past.


Of course, but it's harder to win that way and therefore requires more help.. that's the issue - the help required as a result of inferior brand

So I'd rather have a guy like Curry or Kobe or Kawhi.. They can produce elite amounts on-ball or off-screens, so they have the best teammate fits and allow coaches to implement the best strategy - these 2 factors (teammate fit and offensive strategy) allows winning with less help..

Otoh, Lebron's woat brand requires goat help to win (he requires super-teams that include sidekicks outplaying league MVP or FMVP, unprecedented)

[Johnny32]

Lol imagine using curry, kawhi and kobe as off ball players who need less help to win.

[ShawkFactory]

The 2018 Rockets were the 26th rank assist team. In 2019? 28th rank assist team. They burnt out both times.

Go look at the assist ranks of the 80s Lakers... 80s Celtics... 90s Bulls... 00s Lakers... 00s or 10s Spurs... 10s Warriors. Even the current suns. All top ranked assist teams.

Dynasties don't happen without ball movement and chess level play. You don't understand basketball or even anything for that matter.

The 2018 Rockets were a game away from a finals appearance that they almost certainly would have won. They didn’t flame out.

A lot of great teams have had high assist numbers. Some have been middle of the pack. Some have been at the lower end.

The most important aspects of all time dynasties is continuity and general luck with health. And of course all time talent

You see team assists and go “that’s the answer”. No, the answer is continuity. Continuity is going to lead to better chemistry and by proxy higher team assists. Bron admittedly has been a driving force for a lack of continuity on his own teams. But that has nothing to do with actual basketball.

Very rarely is a team like the Lakers this year with 6 of their 9 rotation players never having played together before (and 2 of the other 3 dealing with injuries pretty frequently), going to be near the top of the league in assists.

It’s just how it is. So while yea..Brons teams having low assists is an issue...it’s not for the reasons you think it is. To use one of your favorite sayings: there’s layers to this shit.

[HoopsNY]

Holy cherry picking :oldlol:. Guy played 66 games and you've narrowed his season down to almost half the games. 35 games where Wizards went 12-23, btw. Washington had a better win % without him this season.

Kuzma's career high of 19 ppg came in 2019 alongside, you guessed it, LeBron.

For the record, I think Kuzma's complete trash and I don't think he did a damn thing to dispel his trash status in Washington. Mediocre numbers on mediocre efficiency on a bad team is who he is. He had a net on/off rating of -5.3 this season. The worst of any rotation player on Washington.

How's it cherry picking? Did you not see me clearly say that he joined a new team and naturally, there's some adjustments to be made? Not to mention, posting his 19 PPG doesn't take away from what I said and the fact that many players decline under LeBron, keyword being "decline". So the fact that he started as a great prospect, averaging 19 PPG and by the end of his tenure became a nobody who everyone hated kinda makes my point.

I think you're getting too caught up in me posting his stat line. Kuzma will never be a great player. He will never be a star, let alone a superstar. I don't deny any of that. He could, however, become a great role player under the right guidance. That is something LeBron didn't cultivate and wouldn't because LeBron leverages pieces for a win now mentality.

Lastly, and be honest with yourself, what does Kuzma do alongside LeBron this season if he's with LA?


Yikes you look desperate. Indian guy already slayed you though no need for me to embarrass you further.

He slayed no one. Your very existence is an embarrassment but you didn't see me complaining now did you? See my above comment to him. You guys are acting like I think Kuzma is some great player when he isn't. He's average, really. But he clearly possesses talent that could make him into a solid piece on a championship team.

[RRR3]

HoopsNY typing through the tears reduced to defending 3ball. Mikey mythologists :oldlol:

[HoopsNY]

HoopsNY typing through the tears reduced to defending 3ball. Mikey mythologists :oldlol:

Do you actually discuss basketball or do you just follow 3ball around all day?

[ShawkFactory]

Of course, but it's harder to win that way and therefore requires more help.. that's the issue - the help required as a result of inferior brand

So I'd rather have a guy like Curry or Kobe or Kawhi.. They can produce elite amounts on-ball or off-screens, so they have the best teammate fits and allow coaches to implement the best strategy - these 2 factors (teammate fit and offensive strategy) allows winning with less help..

Otoh, Lebron's woat brand requires goat help to win (he requires super-teams that include sidekicks outplaying league MVP or FMVP, unprecedented)

I missed this one. Since leaving the Spurs Kawhi's teams have been ranked 14th, 22nd, and 21st in assists. That was a Pop/Spurs system thing, not a Kawhi one.

Hell, SA is second in assists this year.

[ShawkFactory]

How's it cherry picking? Did you not see me clearly say that he joined a new team and naturally, there's some adjustments to be made? Not to mention, posting his 19 PPG doesn't take away from what I said and the fact that many players decline under LeBron, keyword being "decline". So the fact that he started as a great prospect, averaging 19 PPG and by the end of his tenure became a nobody who everyone hated kinda makes my point.

I think you're getting too caught up in me posting his stat line. Kuzma will never be a great player. He will never be a star, let alone a superstar. I don't deny any of that. He could, however, become a great role player under the right guidance. That is something LeBron didn't cultivate and wouldn't because LeBron leverages pieces for a win now mentality.

Lastly, and be honest with yourself, what does Kuzma do alongside LeBron this season if he's with LA?



He slayed no one. Your very existence is an embarrassment but you didn't see me complaining now did you? See my above comment to him. You guys are acting like I think Kuzma is some great player when he isn't. He's average, really. But he clearly possesses talent that could make him into a solid piece on a championship team.

I think he already was a good role player on the Lakers. Bron stans and Lakers fans both just expect too much and are annoying.

[tpols]

The 2018 Rockets were a game away from a finals appearance that they almost certainly would have won. They didn’t flame out.

A lot of great teams have had high assist numbers. Some have been middle of the pack. Some have been at the lower end.

The most important aspects of all time dynasties is continuity and general luck with health. And of course all time talent

You see team assists and go “that’s the answer”. No, the answer is continuity. Continuity is going to lead to better chemistry and by proxy higher team assists. Bron admittedly has been a driving force for a lack of continuity on his own teams. But that has nothing to do with actual basketball.

Very rarely is a team like the Lakers this year with 6 of their 9 rotation players never having played together before (and 2 of the other 3 dealing with injuries pretty frequently), going to be near the top of the league in assists.

It’s just how it is. So while yea..Brons teams having low assists is an issue...it’s not for the reasons you think it is. To use one of your favorite sayings: there’s layers to this shit.

I mean... that is the answer to a dynastic team. Literally every true dynasty ever ~ Lakers, Celtics, Bulls, Spurs, Warriors, etc. had GOAT ball movement. Its intuitive that ball movement and chemistry on top of high end talent will lead to a pinnacle basketball team. To deny this is crazy. Yes... teams can win without ball movement but it would be a one off type of deal. A fluke here and there is going to happen because of like you said injury and general outlier circumstance. But the BEST teams ever all had incredible ball movement. That is an undeniable fact. And Lebrons teams generally have shitty ball movement which is why he requires so much help to barely win.

[Axe]

How's it cherry picking? Did you not see me clearly say that he joined a new team and naturally, there's some adjustments to be made? Not to mention, posting his 19 PPG doesn't take away from what I said and the fact that many players decline under LeBron, keyword being "decline". So the fact that he started as a great prospect, averaging 19 PPG and by the end of his tenure became a nobody who everyone hated kinda makes my point.

I think you're getting too caught up in me posting his stat line. Kuzma will never be a great player. He will never be a star, let alone a superstar. I don't deny any of that. He could, however, become a great role player under the right guidance. That is something LeBron didn't cultivate and wouldn't because LeBron leverages pieces for a win now mentality.

Lastly, and be honest with yourself, what does Kuzma do alongside LeBron this season if he's with LA?



He slayed no one. Your very existence is an embarrassment but you didn't see me complaining now did you? See my above comment to him. You guys are acting like I think Kuzma is some great player when he isn't. He's average, really. But he clearly possesses talent that could make him into a solid piece on a championship team.
It's good to see that kuzma did have some fair highlights in washington during the season but some dudes like ImKobe make it seem like he's going to become a legitimate first option like tatum is on the celtics when that's actually far from happening in reality.

[ShawkFactory]

I mean... that is the answer to a dynastic team. Literally every true dynasty ever ~ Lakers, Celtics, Bulls, Spurs, Warriors, etc. had GOAT ball movement. Its intuitive that ball movement and chemistry on top of high end talent will lead to a pinnacle basketball team. To deny this is crazy. Yes... teams can win without ball movement but it would be a one off type of deal. A fluke here and there is going to happen because of like you said injury and general outlier circumstance. But the BEST teams ever all had incredible ball movement. That is an undeniable fact. And Lebrons teams generally have shitty ball movement which is why he requires so much help to barely win.

I didn't dispute that. My argument was that there are many factors that you were ignoring that contribute to high team assists.

I actually mentioned them in that previous post but you ignored it again and just repeated the argument that my last post was addressing.

[HoopsNY]

It's good to see that kuzma did have some fair highlights in washington during the season but some dudes like ImKobe make it seem like he's going to become a legitimate first option like tatum is on the celtics when that's actually far from happening in reality.

That will never happen. Kuzma is not a star. But to pretend that he didn't begin high on everyone's list and ended up being considered garbage by the end of his Lakers tenure is disingenuous.

Of course, his impact on Washington is not crazy either, but there is something to be said about his performance in his last 35 games. Could he develop to be a good role player, the likes of what we saw with a Shaun Livingston or a Boris Diaw, or maybe a Toni Kukoc type of player? Who knows.

[tpols]

I didn't dispute that. My argument was that there are many factors that you were ignoring that contribute to high team assists.

I actually mentioned them in that previous post but you ignored it again and just repeated the argument that my last post was addressing.

The only thing you mentioned was injuries derailing things but we can see that even in years where there were no injuries Lebrons teams still had terrible assist ranks. In 2011 for instance... everyone prime and healthy... 26th rank assist team. How does that happen?

[ShawkFactory]

The only thing you mentioned was injuries derailing things but we can see that even in years where there were no injuries Lebrons teams still had terrible assist ranks. In 2011 for instance... everyone prime and healthy... 26th rank assist team. How does that happen?

What? :lol

I said continuity was the most important thing. Injuries are a part of that, sure. But that also includes year-to-year roster turnover as well as the coaching staff

[tpols]

What? :lol

I said continuity was the most important thing. Injuries are a part of that, sure. But that also includes year-to-year roster turnover as well as the coaching staff

Continuity? How can you have that when a guy is constantly hopping teams and shipping young talent out for ready made stars? You re shooting yourself in the foot with that argument.

A Dirk type is probably the best example of "continuity" and it eventually paid off. LeBron in his prime never stuck around long enough for that word to apply which further explains why he could never field a dynasty team despite ridiculous star help.

[Axe]

That will never happen. Kuzma is not a star. But to pretend that he didn't begin high on everyone's list and ended up being considered garbage by the end of his Lakers tenure is disingenuous.

Of course, his impact on Washington is not crazy either, but there is something to be said about his performance in his last 35 games. Could he develop to be a good role player, the likes of what we saw with a Shaun Livingston or a Boris Diaw, or how maybe a Toni Kukoc type of player? Who knows.
Not sure about his trajectory either but outside of being lebron's teammate in the past, there seems to be evidence that he has the capability to score high (around 30 or more) on some occasions. Tho yea, that's just that. Not fancy enough because of his team's ending record plus that's not how he played during the postseason but it's possible things may improve for him in the future.

[ShawkFactory]

Continuity? How can you have that when a guy is constantly hopping teams and shipping young talent out for ready made stars? You re shooting yourself in the foot with that argument.

A Dirk type is probably the best example of "continuity" and it eventually paid off. LeBron in his prime never stuck around long enough for that word to apply which further explains why he could never field a dynasty team despite ridiculous star help.

Oh ok, so you actually didn't read my original post that I quoted you on (literally from this page). I'll refer you back to it:


The 2018 Rockets were a game away from a finals appearance that they almost certainly would have won. They didn’t flame out.

A lot of great teams have had high assist numbers. Some have been middle of the pack. Some have been at the lower end.

The most important aspects of all time dynasties is continuity and general luck with health. And of course all time talent

You see team assists and go “that’s the answer”. No, the answer is continuity. Continuity is going to lead to better chemistry and by proxy higher team assists. Bron admittedly has been a driving force for a lack of continuity on his own teams. But that has nothing to do with actual basketball.

Very rarely is a team like the Lakers this year with 6 of their 9 rotation players never having played together before (and 2 of the other 3 dealing with injuries pretty frequently), going to be near the top of the league in assists.

It’s just how it is. So while yea..Brons teams having low assists is an issue...it’s not for the reasons you think it is. To use one of your favorite sayings: there’s layers to this shit.

[tpols]

Wait... how the ****... does that have nothing to do with basketball? That has EVERYTHING to do with basketball lmao.

That's why he doesn't field dynasty teams with great chemistry. Growing up with other talent is how you build a bond and rapport and on court chemistry. You can't build that if you're constantly team hopping and shipping guys out.

[ShawkFactory]

Wait... how the ****... does that have nothing to do with basketball? That has EVERYTHING to do with basketball lmao.

That's why he doesn't field dynasty teams with great chemistry. Growing up with other talent is how you build a bond and rapport and on court chemistry. You can't build that if you're constantly team hopping and shipping guys out.

That's GM shit. Not basketball player stuff. His shitty decision/pushing to bring Westbrook in and ship out Caruso, Kuzma, and KCP who he had good rapport with doesn't have anything to do with him as a player.

The Heat went from 29th to 26th to 14th to 12th in his 4 years there. The Cavs had a similar uptick in team assists each year too.

[tpols]

That's GM shit. Not basketball player stuff. His shitty decision/pushing to bring Westbrook in and ship out Caruso, Kuzma, and KCP who he had good rapport with doesn't have anything to do with him as a player.

The Heat went from 29th to 26th to 14th to 12th in his 4 years there. The Cavs had a similar uptick in team assists each year too.

Bullshit.

Lebrons decision to hop teams constantly in his prime isn't on any GM. And we all know he has massive sway in GM decisions. He coordinated the Big 3 Heat. Shipped Wiggins out to get Love on the Cavs. Shipped Julius Randle out to get Rondo on the Lakers. Shipped Ingram and Ball out to get AD. Was instrumental in the signing of Westbrook. He even took Larry Hughes from the wizards after he had the best season of his career.

Are you serious? GM shit? LeBron basically is a GM. He has held massive influence over all of his teams decisions.

[ShawkFactory]

Bullshit.

Lebrons decision to hop teams constantly in his prime isn't on any GM. And we all know he has massive sway in GM decisions. He coordinated the Big 3 Heat. Shipped Wiggins out to get Love on the Cavs. Shipped Julius Randle out to get Rondo on the Lakers. Shipped Ingram and Ball out to get AD. Was instrumental in the signing of Westbrook. He even took Larry Hughes from the wizards after he had the best season of his career.

Are you serious? GM shit? LeBron basically is a GM. He has held massive influence over all of his teams decisions.

Jesus Christ dude I didn't say it was actually the GM who did it...

In plain(er) English: Lebron's decisions have been GM type shit. Not basketball player shit. I feel like I've been pretty clear about Lebron being the one who influences his teams.

[tpols]

His shitty decision/pushing to bring Westbrook in and ship out Caruso, Kuzma, and KCP who he had good rapport with doesn't have anything to do with him as a player.


I'm re-reading this and am completely dumbfounded. :lol On one hand you pin all the blame on bad roster fits on the GMs. But here you explicitly admit Lebrons hand in forcing the GM's decisions?

:biggums:

I've never seen such strong cognitive dissonance.

[tpols]

Jesus Christ dude I didn't say it was actually the GM who did it...

In plain(er) English: Lebron's decisions have been GM type shit. Not basketball player shit. I feel like I've been pretty clear about Lebron being the one who influences his teams.

GM shit and player shit both matter. Intangibles matter. Off court influence matters. The fact you think none of that contributes to the status of a player is mind boggling. Bill Russell and Magic Johnson wouldn't be superstars without their intangible influence.

[ShawkFactory]

GM shit and player shit both matter. Intangibles matter. Off court influence matters. The fact you think none of that contributes to the status of a player is mind boggling. Bill Russell and Magic Johnson wouldn't be superstars without their intangible influence.

I didn't say they didn't.

His "status" as a player, as you describe it here, doesn't have anything to do with how great of a player he is. They're separate things.

A bad decision to bring someone on and to lose a couple others and ruin the team chemistry is an external factor. Even if the decision comes from someone who plays.

Like if it WAS the actual GM making the decisions would you blame the player? No.

[Hey Yo]

Continuity? How can you have that when a guy is constantly hopping teams and shipping young talent out for ready made stars? You re shooting yourself in the foot with that argument.

A Dirk type is probably the best example of "continuity" and it eventually paid off. LeBron in his prime never stuck around long enough for that word to apply which further explains why he could never field a dynasty team despite ridiculous star help.

Miami was a dynasty with LeBron.

[tpols]

Miami was a dynasty with LeBron.

They had the GOAT choke in their first year, won their 2nd ring by a miracle, lost by the largest margin of defeat ever in their last year, and had a losing record in the Finals overall across all four years.

That's not a dynasty. Every body knows they fell well short of expectation.

[Hey Yo]

They had the GOAT choke in their first year, won their 2nd ring by a miracle, lost by the largest margin of defeat ever in their last year, and had a losing record in the Finals overall across all four years.

That's not a dynasty. Every body knows they fell well short of expectation.

But then why do you consider the Spurs a dynasty who never won B2B?

[tpols]

But then why do you consider the Spurs a dynasty who never won B2B?

I never mentioned back to back in my responses. The spurs won 5 rings and were 1 shot away from 6 rings across multiple decades. With absolutely no star collusion totally organic throughout. If that's not a dynasty I don't know what is. The Heat didn't do half of that. The Spurs were beating the prime Heat as old men.

[Hey Yo]

I never mentioned back to back in my responses. The spurs won 5 rings and were 1 shot away from 6 rings across multiple decades. With absolutely no star collusion totally organic throughout. If that's not a dynasty I don't know what is. The Heat didn't do half of that. The Spurs were beating the prime Heat as old men.

Your definition of a dynasty is a one of a kind description and really dumb.

Can't be a dynasty if you've never repeated. You're the only one who thinks the opposite.

Plus, dynasty's don't lose to an 8 seed in the first round.

[3ba11]

Lol imagine using curry, kawhi and kobe as off ball players who need less help to win.


Klay/Dray hadn't been all-stars yet heading into the 2015 season and the Warriors were middle-of-the-pack in preseason odds - no one saw them coming.

Otoh, Kyrie and Love were already perennial all-stars heading into 2015, so the Cavs were the preseason favorite in 15' and 16'.

Curry is also one of the few guys that defeated maximum defensive attention while winning a title, aka he carried the scoring load in playoffs and Finals (10 ppg more than sidekick)

Few players have defeated maximum defensive attention (carried scoring load) because most guys need juggernaut scoring help and all-time scorers at sidekick - only MJ's 6 rings and a few one-off's won without juggernaut scoring help, and Curry is one of those one-off's along with 19' Kawhi, 94' Hakeem, 03' Duncan, 11' Dirk and maybe 1 or 2 more

[Indian guy]

How's it cherry picking?

He joined a lottery team. The adjustment period on such team should be minimal at best. Not half the freaking season. What you did is the definition of cherry picking.


Not to mention, posting his 19 PPG

You said Kuzma's stats as a Wizard is something he could never replicate next to LeBron. A dubious take considering his career high was posted next to LeBron. That's the sole reason for me mentioning the 19 ppg.


the fact that many players decline under LeBron, keyword being "decline".

Please do mention these "many" players. And I don't mean a star who went from a 1st option on lottery teams to 3rd option on a contender. Find me a player whose role remained relatively unchanged yet suffered a noticeable decline in his play next to LeBron. Go ahead.

Hint: You won't



So the fact that he started as a great prospect

Stop :oldlol:. He was the 27th pick in the 1st round and was never even considered a good prospect, much less a great one.


averaging 19 PPG and by the end of his tenure became a nobody who everyone hated kinda makes my point.

He was always a nobody. Averaging in the teens on mediocre efficiency on lottery teams means NOTHING. Then AD arrived and Kuzma was mercifully moved to the bench, where he can occasionally be a spark, but ultimately doesn't really excel at any particular aspect of the game to be an asset. LA ended up winning the championship despite him. There was even a campaign to not give him a ring :oldlol:

And unsurprisingly, he was brutal in his first season as a Wizard. -5.3 net on/off. Worst of any rotation player on the team. Ouch.

[FKAri]

Usually there's a hint of truth to OP but on this one it appears he has zero clue what he's talking about.

[Axe]

He joined a lottery team. The adjustment period on such team should be minimal at best. Not half the freaking season. What you did is the definition of cherry picking.



You said Kuzma's stats as a Wizard is something he could never replicate next to LeBron. A dubious take considering his career high was posted next to LeBron. That's the sole reason for me mentioning the 19 ppg.



Please do mention these "many" players. And I don't mean a star who went from a 1st option on lottery teams to 3rd option on a contender. Find me a player whose role remained relatively unchanged yet suffered a noticeable decline in his play next to LeBron. Go ahead.

Hint: You won't




Stop :oldlol:. He was the 27th pick in the 1st round and was never even considered a good prospect, much less a great one.



He was always a nobody. Averaging in the teens on mediocre efficiency on lottery teams means NOTHING. Then AD arrived and Kuzma was mercifully moved to the bench, where he can occasionally be a spark, but ultimately doesn't really excel at any particular aspect of the game to be an asset. LA ended up winning the championship despite him. There was even a campaign to not give him a ring :oldlol:

And unsurprisingly, he was brutal in his first season as a Wizard. -5.3 net on/off. Worst of any rotation player on the team. Ouch.
All these shit and somehow at the end of the season, his team still got a better record than his former one? :confusedshrug:

[3ba11]

He joined a lottery .

Please do mention these "many" players. And I don't mean a star who went from a 1st option on lottery teams to 3rd option on a contender. Find me a player whose role remained relatively unchanged yet suffered a noticeable decline in his play next to LeBron. Go ahead.






Jamison as 3rd option in 2005.......... 20 ppg
Jamison as 2nd option in 2010......... 15 ppg

Jamison in 2010 before Lebron...... 22 ppg




He joined a lottery .

Please do mention these "many" players. And I don't mean a star who went from a 1st option on lottery teams to 3rd option on a contender. Find me a player whose role remained relatively unchanged yet suffered a noticeable decline in his play next to LeBron. Go ahead.





3rd options that averaged 19-20+ in playoffs or Finals:

Klay
Jrue
Manu
Jamison
Ray Allen
Mitch Richmond
Worthy

MANY MORE

Only Lebron's skillset (frontcourt ball-dominance) robs his 3rd options of the capacity to step up by reducing them to spot-up shooter.. Everyone else's 3rd options can dominate except Lebron's, who are trapped in spot-up roles.