Was KJ a better 1st option than Barkley?

[3ba11]

Barkley lost to MJ in 6 games with homecourt advantage, while KJ beat Magic in 90' without homecourt and took Hakeem to 7 games in 94 & 95 (as the 1st option).

KJ-ball > Barkley-ball?

Round Mound?

[ShawkFactory]

No.

[Shogon]

Yes, KJ was the MVP of those teams.

[SouBeachTalents]

KJ was a better first option than MJ, Jordan or Magic, hell, even Michael on the Jackson 5.

[tontoz]

Not sure what the angle is here but i will go way out on a limb and guess this is some kind of diss to Lebron.

[Kblaze8855]

Not sure what the angle is here but i will go way out on a limb and guess this is some kind of diss to Lebron.

In a roundabout way. It’s a Pippen thing.

[SouBeachTalents]

In a roundabout way. It’s a Pippen thing.
Which is ironic considering Pippen outplayed KJ h2h in the Finals

[j3lademaster]

Not sure what the angle is here but i will go way out on a limb and guess this is some kind of diss to Lebron."Everyone had a 2nd star with equal scoring load etc etc... except"

[3ba11]

Which is ironic considering Pippen outplayed KJ h2h in the Finals


Majerle outplayed Pippen (gamescore) because Pippen shot 46% true shooting

The Suns had 4 guys in the Finals getting Pippen's career average of 17 ppg (4 pippen's), so they were far more stacked than the Bulls.

And KJ was hurt - a healthy KJ that dominated Magic and Hakeem would ragdoll Jordan's Bulls unless Jordan averaged 50 - literally - that's how bad Pippen was (forcing MJ to average 41)..

Can Pippen dominate Magic and Hakeem? Of course not, so don't compare a system athlete like Pippen to a pure scorer/playmaker/dominator like KJ

Pippen is the only 90"s sidekick that was more of an athlete/transition player and not a go-to player capable of dominant production or 1b status (always carried) - only Pippen failed to average elite points, rebounds or assists in any series, so only MJ had to carry the load every time.

[ShawkFactory]

In a roundabout way. It’s a Pippen thing.

Nailed it :oldlol:

[3ba11]

Nailed it :oldlol:


a healthy KJ that dominated Magic and Hakeem would ragdoll Jordan's Bulls unless Jordan averaged 50 - literally - that's how bad Pippen was (forcing MJ to average 41)..

Can Pippen dominate Magic and Hakeem? Of course not, so don't compare a system athlete like Pippen to a pure scorer/playmaker/dominator like KJ

Pippen is the only 90"s sidekick that was more of an athlete/transition player and not a go-to player capable of dominant production or 1b status (always carried) - only Pippen failed to average elite points, rebounds or assists in any series, so only MJ had to carry the load every time.

[Kawhi_Why_Not]

He did anchor a top 3 offense and #1 SRS in 1990. Topping that off with a western conference finals appearance and eliminated Magic\Worthy. All he had on that team was a bunch of random white guys? that's pretty damn impressive actually.

KJ comes off as smarter, much much more well spoken (politician vs caveman) and just more alpha then barkley i would say.

[AussieSteve]

90 Suns had 2x All-NBA and 3x 20ppg scorers.

KJ wasn't even the leading score on the team, which by you definition means he wasn't even their best player.

[Round Mound]

:facepalm

[ShawkFactory]

a healthy KJ that dominated Magic and Hakeem would ragdoll Jordan's Bulls unless Jordan averaged 50 - literally - that's how bad Pippen was (forcing MJ to average 41)..

Can Pippen dominate Magic and Hakeem? Of course not, so don't compare a system athlete like Pippen to a pure scorer/playmaker/dominator like KJ

Pippen is the only 90"s sidekick that was more of an athlete/transition player and not a go-to player capable of dominant production or 1b status (always carried) - only Pippen failed to average elite points, rebounds or assists in any series, so only MJ had to carry the load every time.

Lol thanks for confirming that it really IS about Pippen.

Not a single mention of Barkley in this post :lol

[Phoenix]

Quality thread by ISH standards, right on the eve of the playoffs.

[Phoenix]

Tomorrow night when the playoffs are on:

'Is Terry Porter a better first option than Clyde Drexler?'

[AussieSteve]

Hang on. KJ only scored 22.0 of 46.8%eFG in that series?

That is pretty much in line with what Pippen gave you scoring wise.

Why is this dominant when its KJ, but terrible when its Pippen?

Pippen was also the best perimeter defender in the league btw.

Watch 3ball contradict himself.

[Phoenix]

Hang on. KJ only scored 22.0 of 46.8%eFG in that series?

That is pretty much in line with what Pippen gave you scoring wise.

Why is this dominant when its KJ, but terrible when its Pippen?

Pippen was also the best perimeter defender in the league btw.

Watch 3ball contradict himself.

Brace yourself for the coming spin.

[Norcaliblunt]

Kj is underrated while Barkley is overrated yes.

Who’s better? Both were injury prone choke artists so who cares?

[3ba11]

Lol thanks for confirming that it really IS about Pippen.

Not a single mention of Barkley in this post :lol


Someone else said that Pippen outplayed KJ so I had to point out that Majerle outplayed Pippen and KJ was hurt but otherwise a better 1st option than Barkley

[3ba11]

Hang on. KJ only scored 22.0 of 46.8%eFG in that series?

That is pretty much in line with what Pippen gave you scoring wise.

Why is this dominant when its KJ, but terrible when its Pippen?

Pippen was also the best perimeter defender in the league btw.

Watch 3ball contradict himself.


1990 vs Magic's 1 seed

22/6/11 on 47%

^^^ better than Pippen ever played


1994 vs Hakeem's champion

27/5/10 on 44%

^^^ better than Pippen ever played


1995 vs Hakeem's champion

28/4/9 on 58%

^^^ better than Pippen ever played



Pippen is the only 90"s sidekick that was more of an athlete/transition player and not a go-to player capable of dominant production or 1b status (always carried) - only Pippen failed to average elite points, rebounds or assists in any series, so only MJ had to carry the load every time.

[Round Mound]

Ok 3-ball KJ was better than Pippen.

[Axe]

He also has more career assists than kobe ever did too. Let that sink in for a while, andrew.

[TheGoatest]

That 1993 Suns team might've been proper competition had that particular season not been one where KJ was injured.
As it is, those 93 Suns remain one of the worst defensive teams ever to have been in the finals.

[AussieSteve]

Ok 3-ball KJ was better than Pippen.

3ball won't interpret this as sarcasm.

[BarberSchool]

Tomorrow night when the playoffs are on:

'Is Terry Porter a better first option than Clyde Drexler?'

Word.

Imagine thinking these asenine thoughts, then actually believing them ?

It’s like walking into a room and screaming out loud “I KNOW JACK MF SH!T ABOUT BASKETBALL, YET I KNOW IT LOUD !”

SHUT THE FU@K UP WITH THIS NONSENSE Y’ALL:banghead:

[3ba11]

3ball won't interpret this as sarcasm.


He isn't being sarcastic - he's conceding the part that isn't a big deal and obvious, thus avoiding the thread title and effectively pretending it isn't a legitimate question

Conceding that a 20/10 guy who was a better scorer, passer and leader than Pippen isn't remarkable.. When did Pippen lead a team to WCF?.. When was he a 20/10 guy? When did he achieve elite ppg or apg?.

Pippen is the only 90"s sidekick that was more of an athlete/transition player and not a go-to player capable of dominant production or 1b status (always carried) - only Pippen failed to average elite points, rebounds or assists in any series, so only MJ had to carry the load every time.

[Axe]

He also has more career assists than kobe ever did too. Let that sink in for a while, andrew.
Umm op?

[3ba11]

Umm op?


What's your point

Barkley lost to MJ in 6, while KJ beat Magic and took Hakeem to 7 games twice

[TheGoatest]

1991-92 Kevin Johnson:
Regular season:
19.7 ppg, 10.7 apg, 3.7 rpg
Playoffs:
23.6 ppg, 11.6 apg, 4.1 rpg

1992-93 Kevin Johnson:
Regular season:
16.1 ppg, 7.8 apg, 2.1 rpg
Playoffs:
17.8 ppg, 7.9 apg, 2.7 rpg

1993-94 Kevin Johnson:
Regular season:
20.0 ppg, 9.5 apg, 2.5 rpg
Playoffs:
26.6 ppg, 9.6 apg, 3.5 rpg

Guess which one of these Kevin Johnsons jordon faced in the finals?

[3ba11]

1991-92 Kevin Johnson:
Regular season:
19.7 ppg, 10.7 apg, 3.7 rpg
Playoffs:
23.6 ppg, 11.6 apg, 4.1 rpg

1992-93 Kevin Johnson:
Regular season:
16.1 ppg, 7.8 apg, 2.1 rpg
Playoffs:
17.8 ppg, 7.9 apg, 2.7 rpg

1993-94 Kevin Johnson:
Regular season:
20.0 ppg, 9.5 apg, 2.5 rpg
Playoffs:
26.6 ppg, 9.6 apg, 3.5 rpg

Guess which one of these Kevin Johnsons jordon faced in the finals?


You left off a few of KJ's best runs

But you're right - everyone knows that a healthy, dominant KJ destroys the Bulls unless MJ averages 50 ppg

That's how bad Pippen was - he shot 46% true shooting and made MJ average 41, which barely won because the Suns' dominant 1b was hurt

[Round Mound]

He isn't being sarcastic - he's conceding the part that isn't a big deal and obvious, thus avoiding the thread title and effectively pretending it isn't a legitimate question

Conceding that a 20/10 guy who was a better scorer, passer and leader than Pippen isn't remarkable.. When did Pippen lead a team to WCF?.. When was he a 20/10 guy? When did he achieve elite ppg or apg?.

Pippen is the only 90"s sidekick that was more of an athlete/transition player and not a go-to player capable of dominant production or 1b status (always carried) - only Pippen failed to average elite points, rebounds or assists in any series, so only MJ had to carry the load every time.

:oldlol::facepalm

[Phoenix]

What's your point

Barkley lost to MJ in 6, while KJ beat Magic and took Hakeem to 7 games twice

What's yours?

Magic lost to KJ in 5 who lost to Drexler in 6 (90) who lost to Magic in 6 who lost to Jordan to 5 (91) who beat Drexler in 6 (92). What does any of that mean? Sweet f*uck all.

This is not at all how basketball works and someone who spends as much time as you talking about it damn well should know that. What KJ with a different Suns squad did against other players 3 years before he and Barkley played the Bulls is irrelevant. Since Magic 'only' took Jordan to 5, based on your argument that means all the players who took more games off MJ in the playoffs are better than Magic? Drexler, Barkley, Kemp, Malone, Price all took him to 6. Ewing and Miller took him to 7. Glen Rice took the Bulls to 5, so did Alonzo Mourning and Tim Hardaway. Which means what..... they're equal to Magic?

John Paxson hitting that 3 to end the series in six doesn't mean Barkley is any better or worse a player/first option in that moment for a 'make or miss' he had zero control over.
'KJ took Hakeem to 7 and Barkley took MJ to 6, so KJ's better'
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/78/c0/e9/78c0e9356a28f30734f4b6ebe7c58ba8.jpg

That's some Wile. E Coyote reasoning if there ever was.

[3ba11]

What's yours?

Magic lost to KJ in 5 who lost to Drexler in 6 (90) who lost to Magic in 6 who lost to Jordan to 5 (91) who beat Drexler in 6 (92). What does any of that mean? Sweet f*uck all.

This is not at all how basketball works and someone who spends as much time as you talking about it damn well should know that. What KJ with a different Suns squad did against other players 3 years before he and Barkley played the Bulls is irrelevant. Since Magic 'only' took Jordan to 5, based on your argument that means all the players who took more games off MJ in the playoffs are better than Magic? Drexler, Barkley, Kemp, Malone, Price all took him to 6. Ewing and Miller took him to 7. Glen Rice took the Bulls to 5, so did Alonzo Mourning and Tim Hardaway. Which means what..... they're equal to Magic?

John Paxson hitting that 3 to end the series in six doesn't mean Barkley is any better or worse a player/first option in that moment for a 'make or miss' he had zero control over.
'KJ took Hakeem to 7 and Barkley took MJ to 6, so KJ's better'
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/78/c0/e9/78c0e9356a28f30734f4b6ebe7c58ba8.jpg

That's some Wile. E Coyote reasoning if there ever was.


It isn't about splitting hairs over who went 5 games or 6 - it's about having any playoff record at all as 1st option

Aside from 93' when Barkley joined KJ's winning team, Barkley never did shit in the playoffs as 1st option aside from getting demolished by everyone early and often.. Otoh, KJ made multiple WCF while upsetting Magic and taking Hakeem to 7 games twice.

[Axe]

What's your point

Barkley lost to MJ in 6, while KJ beat Magic and took Hakeem to 7 games twice
Kj > kobe before shaq

[3ba11]

Kj > kobe before shaq


Peak KJ compares well to 2000 Kobe, while peak Pippen was a secondary producer and can't be compared to top producers that will drop 45/6/10 on your head multiple times like Kobe or KJ

[ShawkFactory]

What's yours?

Magic lost to KJ in 5 who lost to Drexler in 6 (90) who lost to Magic in 6 who lost to Jordan to 5 (91) who beat Drexler in 6 (92). What does any of that mean? Sweet f*uck all.

This is not at all how basketball works and someone who spends as much time as you talking about it damn well should know that. What KJ with a different Suns squad did against other players 3 years before he and Barkley played the Bulls is irrelevant. Since Magic 'only' took Jordan to 5, based on your argument that means all the players who took more games off MJ in the playoffs are better than Magic? Drexler, Barkley, Kemp, Malone, Price all took him to 6. Ewing and Miller took him to 7. Glen Rice took the Bulls to 5, so did Alonzo Mourning and Tim Hardaway. Which means what..... they're equal to Magic?

John Paxson hitting that 3 to end the series in six doesn't mean Barkley is any better or worse a player/first option in that moment for a 'make or miss' he had zero control over.
'KJ took Hakeem to 7 and Barkley took MJ to 6, so KJ's better'
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/78/c0/e9/78c0e9356a28f30734f4b6ebe7c58ba8.jpg

That's some Wile. E Coyote reasoning if there ever was.

It's incredibly childish.

[AussieSteve]

:oldlol::facepalm

Told you :lol

[AussieSteve]

It isn't about splitting hairs over who went 5 games or 6 - it's about having any playoff record at all as 1st option

Aside from 93' when Barkley joined KJ's winning team, Barkley never did shit in the playoffs as 1st option aside from getting demolished by everyone early and often.. Otoh, KJ made multiple WCF while upsetting Magic and taking Hakeem to 7 games twice.

KJ never took Hakeem to 7 games. Barkley did, with KJs help.

Look at the progression of the series in line with the progression of Barkley's back issues.

In 94, Barkley was the best player on the court in games 1 and 2, which the Suns won. KJ scored big in some losses with Barkley being progressively more hobbled as the series went on.

By series end the Suns were no match for Houston, with Barkley taking pre-game and half-time injections into his back just to be able to make it onto the court.

Barkley was the one who won games on that team. KJ was a sidekick.

If Barkley's back had not have given in in 94, he'd have been the MVP and FMVP that year.

[Phoenix]

It isn't about splitting hairs over who went 5 games or 6 - it's about having any playoff record at all as 1st option

Aside from 93' when Barkley joined KJ's winning team, Barkley never did shit in the playoffs as 1st option aside from getting demolished by everyone early and often.. Otoh, KJ made multiple WCF while upsetting Magic and taking Hakeem to 7 games twice.

None of Barkley's teams he fielded in the late 80's should have made any deep playoff runs, though. By the time he reached his prime, guys like Dr.J and Mo Cheeks were on the decline. Shit, he lost to Chicago twice in 90 and 91 in the 2nd round. Are you saying he should have beaten Jordan's Bulls in those series? Even the Knicks series in 89 his team was badly outmatched.

Also, if by 'first option' you mean leading scorer then Tom Chambers was the leading season and playoff scorer in 89 and 90 when the Suns made the conference finals. When KJ was the leading scorer for season and playoffs in 91, he lost in the first round, and as the leading scorer in the 92 playoffs, he lost in the 2nd round.

[3ba11]

None of Barkley's teams he fielded in the late 80's should have made any deep playoff runs, though. By the time he reached his prime, guys like Dr.J and Mo Cheeks were on the decline. Shit, he lost to Chicago twice in 90 and 91 in the 2nd round. Are you saying he should have beaten Jordan's Bulls in those series? Even the Knicks series in 89 his team was badly outmatched.

Also, if by 'first option' you mean leading scorer then Tom Chambers was the leading season and playoff scorer in 89 and 90 when the Suns made the conference finals. When KJ was the leading scorer for season and playoffs in 91, he lost in the first round, and as the leading scorer in the 92 playoffs, he lost in the 2nd round.


1990

Sixers....... #5 SRS.. #5 Net Rating.. #16 DRTG.. #2 ORTG
Bulls......... #7 SRS.. #9 Net Rating.. #19 DRTG.. #5 ORTG


Why can't Barkley beat the Bulls?.. :biggums:

Btw, 91' Pippen wasn't an all-star but Hersey Hawkins was, while 90' Pippen averaged 16 with lower scoring, efficiency, PER, BPM, WS/48 and VORP than 09' Mo..

[Phoenix]

1990

Sixers....... #5 SRS.. #5 Net Rating.. #16 DRTG.. #2 ORTG
Bulls......... #7 SRS.. #9 Net Rating.. #19 DRTG.. #5 ORTG


Why can't Barkley beat the Bulls?.. :biggums:

Btw, 91' Pippen wasn't an all-star but Hersey Hawkins was, while 90' Pippen averaged 16 with lower scoring, efficiency, PER, BPM, WS/48 and VORP than 09' Mo..

I don't know...

Maybe because the Bulls had the best player?

Maybe because pulling those stats off basketball reference meant fukk all to how those teams matched up against each other on the court? Which by your logic using those stats from 90 to say Philly should have beaten Chicago, in 91 the Bulls were 1st in SRS to Philly being 15th, 1st in Net rating to Philly being 14th, 1st in ORTG to Philly 13th, and 7th in DRTG to Philly 16th. Any reason you neglected to mention that :oldlol:? As usual your dumb ass arguing points circle around to bite you in the ass......time and time again.

Maybe because in 1990 Bulls/Philly series Scottie dropped 21/7/6 53% to Hersey's 20/3/5 47% ? Maybe because in 1991 Bulls/Philly series Scottie dropped 23/9/6 on 57% to Hersey's 20/6/3 on 43%? Maybe because you're full of shit about who had the better 2nd option when the two teams met head to head?

BTW, Pippen was an all-star in 90 and Hawkins wasn't. :confusedshrug:

[ShawkFactory]

I don't know...

Maybe because the Bulls had the best player?

Maybe because pulling those stats off basketball reference meant fukk all to how those teams matched up against each other on the court? Which by your logic using those stats from 90 to say Philly should have beaten Chicago, in 91 the Bulls were 1st in SRS to Philly being 15th, 1st in Net rating to Philly being 14th, 1st in ORTG to Philly 13th, and 7th in DRTG to Philly 16th. Any reason you neglected to mention that :oldlol:? As usual your dumb ass arguing points circle around to bite you in the ass......time and time again.

Maybe because in 1990 Bulls/Philly series Scottie dropped 21/7/6 53% to Hersey's 20/3/5 47% ? Maybe because in 1991 Bulls/Philly series Scottie dropped 23/9/6 on 57% to Hersey's 20/6/3 on 43%? Maybe because you're full of shit about who had the better 2nd option when the two teams met head to head?

BTW, Pippen was an all-star in 90 and Hawkins wasn't. :confusedshrug:

You really could have just stopped here and saved yourself some time.

[kawhileonard2]

If we are saying KJ in 1990 who outdueled Magic then it is a possibility.

[kawhileonard2]

1990

Sixers....... #5 SRS.. #5 Net Rating.. #16 DRTG.. #2 ORTG
Bulls......... #7 SRS.. #9 Net Rating.. #19 DRTG.. #5 ORTG


Why can't Barkley beat the Bulls?.. :biggums:

Btw, 91' Pippen wasn't an all-star but Hersey Hawkins was, while 90' Pippen averaged 16 with lower scoring, efficiency, PER, BPM, WS/48 and VORP than 09' Mo..

THey were basically equal but MJ was better than Barkley which was the difference.

[ShawkFactory]

Was Baron Davis a better first option than Tmac?

[Phoenix]

They were basically equal but MJ was better than Barkley which was the difference.

No they weren't. The Bulls as of 1990 were a legit championship level team( took Detroit to game 7 and possibly could have won without Scottie's migraine situation and I'd take Chicago over Portland) and very clearly the best team in the league in 91, with the consensus regarded best player at the apex of his career. All the metrics used above and including record, especially for the 91 season, showed Philly as a middle of the road team led by a singular great player.

[Shogon]

In a roundabout way. It’s a Pippen thing.

Nope. It's about LeBron. It might be "about Pippen in a roundabout way" but the only reason the Pippen obsession is even a thing is because of LeBron James.

OP rarely has anything to say about anything related to basketball whatsoever where LeBron isn't the root of what he's obsessing about. I would have thought that was clear by now.

[8Ball]

We never resolved the 1-9 issue.

[kawhileonard2]

We never resolved the 1-9 issue.

What about the 0-16 issue?

[3ba11]

No they weren't. The Bulls as of 1990 were a legit championship level team( took Detroit to game 7 and possibly could have won without Scottie's migraine situation and I'd take Chicago over Portland) and very clearly the best team in the league in 91, with the consensus regarded best player at the apex of his career. All the metrics used above and including record, especially for the 91 season, showed Philly as a middle of the road team led by a singular great player.


The 90' Bulls were worse than the 90' Sixers across the board (offense, defense, SRS, net rating), but they took the Pistons 7 games because Jordan was carrying the team - the "Jordan Rules" were in full effect and he was averaging 40.2 ppg heading into the series against the Pistons..

It's widely-known that the 90' ring would've been the biggest carry-job in history if MJ had pulled it off - it's staggering how much more stacked the Blazers and Pistons were than the Bulls

[Phoenix]

The 90' Bulls were worse than the 90' Sixers across the board (offense, defense, SRS, net rating), but they took the Pistons 7 games because Jordan was carrying the team - the "Jordan Rules" were in full effect and he was averaging 40.2 ppg heading into the series against the Pistons..

It's widely-known that the 90' ring would've been the biggest carry-job in history if MJ had pulled it off - it's staggering how much more stacked the Blazers and Pistons were than the Bulls

What their relative ranks were in those categories among the league hierarchy didn't matter when it comes to how they actually matchup on-court. If all of those categories determined who the champions should be every year, the Lakers in 90 being #2 in SRS, #1 in ORTG, #8 in DRTG, and #1 in Net Rating had the best balance of those categories and as you gleefully observe, didn't even get to the finals. Phoenix had a higher SRS, ORTG, and Net rating than Portland. How'd that work out for them in the conference finals?

Games are won and lost on the court, not on basketball reference.

[Round Mound]

Now the 89-90 Sixeres where better than the Jordan-Pippen-Grant Bulls :facepalm. 3-ball doesn't remember that in the finals the 1993 Suns had KJ averaging 17 PPG on 42% FG and only delivering 1 APG more than Charles. He forgets that Barkley was elbow injured after game 2. Then for the next season Barkley was mainly injured and in the 94-95 series vs the Rockets the next year Barkley was also injured for game 7 and he himself said he wouldn't have been able to play the next series. He did however score something like 18 points and grab 20 rebounds.

[NBAGOAT]

What their relative ranks were in those categories among the league hierarchy didn't matter when it comes to how they actually matchup on-court. If all of those categories determined who the champions should be every year, the Lakers in 90 being #2 in SRS, #1 in ORTG, #8 in DRTG, and #1 in Net Rating had the best balance of those categories and as you gleefully observe, didn't even get to the finals. Phoenix had a higher SRS, ORTG, and Net rating than Portland. How'd that work out for them in the conference finals?

Games are won and lost on the court, not on basketball reference.

the bulls started slow because it was the first year with the triangle. 26-15 in the 1st half, 29-12 in the 2nd half. 3ball knows this but ofc he's going choose to exclude it. If you used srs then the celtics and jazz are not far off this year but everyone knows it's not close because utah started well and finished poorly while boston started poorly and finished well.

Going steal a backpicks chart. https://backpicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Bulls-90-to-91-Growth.png