I don't think Scottie Pippen was a better player than Reggie Miller.

[TAZORAC]

As individual talents, I don't think Scottie Pippen was that much better of a player than Reggie Miller. Pippen played under the perfect conditions during his Bulls tenure sort of how Tim Duncan played under the perfect conditions in his.

If you replaced Pippen for Reggie Miller on those Pacers teams in the 90s, I doubt the Pacers would have been as successful. (Although Pacers never won a championship they were usually a top 6 team in the NBA, or 3rd best in the East).

So the question is...is Pippen REALLY better than Reggie Miller?

[NBAGOAT]

those pacers team needed reggie's shooting and scoring. however the bulls needed pippen's defense. Do the Bulls win 6 titles with miller instead of pippen? I dont think so.

[Shooter]

Reggie Miller has zero:
•All NBA 1st team
•All NBA 2nd team
•All defensive 1st
•All defensive 2nd
•Top 3 MVP finishes
•Top 5 MVP finishes
•Championships
•Seasons above 25 ppg

Not a typo.
Zero. Zilch. Nada. None. Not a one.

He is LITERALLY the most overrated player of all-time.

Here's your Kodak moment Reggie. *click*

[8Ball]

He is a good player, would have thrived better in this era of basketball.

I still take Klay Thomson over him.

[ImKobe]

Reggie Miller has zero:
•All NBA 1st team
•All NBA 2nd team
•All defensive 1st
•All defensive 2nd
•Top 3 MVP finishes
•Top 5 MVP finishes
•Championships
•Seasons above 25 ppg

Not a typo.
Zero. Zilch. Nada. None. Not a one.

He is LITERALLY the most overrated player of all-time.

Here's your Kodak moment Reggie. *click*

How is he the most overrated? He had incredible scoring efficiency numbers and usually went up a level in the Playoffs and has a bunch of iconic moments. Pippen peaked a little higher in the mid-90s but it's a lot closer than you're making it out to be.

[Shooter]

How is he the most overrated? He had incredible scoring efficiency numbers and usually went up a level in the Playoffs and has a bunch of iconic moments. Pippen peaked a little higher in the mid-90s but it's a lot closer than you're making it out to be.

He's the only player that gets top 75 talk with accolades as shitty as that. Find me one other player that did less:

Reggie Miller has zero:
•All NBA 1st team
•All NBA 2nd team
•All defensive 1st
•All defensive 2nd
•Top 3 MVP finishes
•Top 5 MVP finishes
•Championships
•Seasons above 25 ppg

[999Guy]

He is a good player, would have thrived better in this era of basketball.

I still take Klay Thomson over him.

Miller had an elite first step, an actual handle, great creativity on and off ball. Reggie had some playmaking ability too.

Klay’s game is as plain as his face. Which is probably why he’s such a good shooter. He’s just this repetitive, stiff guy who shoots the same way billions of times. But that’s it.

Reggie was closer to Curry than to Klay in reality.

[Kblaze8855]

How is he the most overrated?


Your answer is the post above this one.

[FKAri]

Disagree. Reggie Miller did become overrated. Not sure if he still is as I don't see him mentioned much anymore. It's because his highlight package is amazing and he's a great competitor. He was also involved in some memorable rivalries.

[Bronbron23]

As individual talents, I don't think Scottie Pippen was that much better of a player than Reggie Miller. Pippen played under the perfect conditions during his Bulls tenure sort of how Tim Duncan played under the perfect conditions in his.

If you replaced Pippen for Reggie Miller on those Pacers teams in the 90s, I doubt the Pacers would have been as successful. (Although Pacers never won a championship they were usually a top 6 team in the NBA, or 3rd best in the East).

So the question is...is Pippen REALLY better than Reggie Miller?

Pip is a hard one to evaluate. We only have a little more than 1 season and a half to go by in his prime without mj. He was very good during this time but at the end of the day pip wasn't enough of a scoring threat to consistently be a contender. Reggie on the otherhand was alot like steph in that he drew so much defense attention because of his shooting that his impact offensively reach further than his stats. He was also much tougher mentally. This is the reason if i had to choose i'd go with reggie but you can't go wrong either way.

[8Ball]

Miller had an elite first step, an actual handle, great creativity on and off ball. Reggie had some playmaking ability too.

Klay’s game is as plain as his face. Which is probably why he’s such a good shooter. He’s just this repetitive, stiff guy who shoots the same way billions of times. But that’s it.

Reggie was closer to Curry than to Klay in reality.

Klay guards other team's best player and has awards to show for it.


An 19/3/3 for his career player is closer to klay thomson than effing Steph Curry

[Bronbron23]

Klay guards other team's best player and has awards to show for it.


An 19/3/3 for his career player is closer to klay thomson than effing Steph Curry

You really think reggie is only scoring 19 a game in this era? This era is tailored to his game plus he'd be shooting twice as many threes.

[3ba11]

.
Pippen and Miller played the same playoff opponent 6 times:



R Miller vs. 90' Pistons..... 20.7 on 57%... 17.9 usage
Pippen. vs. 90' Pistons..... 16.6 on 43%... 20.4 usage

R Miller vs 93' Knicks....... 31.5 on 53%... 27.5 usage
Pippen. vs 93' Knicks....... 22.5 on 51%... 28.4 usage

R Miller vs 94' Knicks....... 24.7 on 44%... 30.1 usage
Pippen. vs 94' Knicks....... 21.7 on 41%... 31.7 usage

R Miller vs 95' Magic........ 25.9 on 52%... 26.2 usage
Pippen. vs 95' Magic........ 19.0 on 42%... 23.1 usage

R Miller vs 00' Lakers....... 24.3 on 41%... 25.0 usage
Pippen. vs 00' Lakers....... 15.1 on 43%... 19.5 usage
Pippen. vs 99' Lakers....... 18.3 on 33%... 23.5 usage

R Miller 98' ECF............... 17.4 on 41%... 21.1 usage
Pippen. 98' ECF............... 16.6 on 39%... 26.0 usage


Miller had numerous conference finals and Finals runs without a single all-star teammate, while Pippen was barely .500 in 95' before MJ came back and carried him to another 3-peat (pippen averaged 17 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs).

[3ba11]

You really think reggie is only scoring 19 a game in this era? This era is tailored to his game plus he'd be shooting twice as many threes.


In the 1992 - 2002 Playoffs, Miller averaged 24 ppg on 60% true shooting, including 41% threes on 6 attempts... He would average more in today's game by shooting a lot more threes and FT's

Miller dominated many series with 25-30 ppg and destroyed Kobe in the Finals, or peak Ray Allen in 02' - so Miller was absolutely that top-level dominant perimeter player that would explode in today's format.. It's an insult to compare a low-producing system player and transition player like Pippen to a dominant player like Miller

[3ba11]

.
Regular Season

Hornacek (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html)'.... 17.7 PER.. 2.9 bpm.. 0.153 ws/48.. 42.1 vorp on 33,964 min.. 15/3/5 on 58.2 ts
Klay (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html)............ 16.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.110 ws/48.. 14.4 vorp on 20,380 min.. 19/3/2 on 57.5 ts


Playoffs

Hornacek (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html)'.... 16.5 PER.. 3.1 bpm.. 0.145 ws/48.. 14.1 vorp on 4766 min.. 15/4/4 on 57.5 ts
Klay (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html)............ 14.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.091 ws/48.... 3.1 vorp on 4570 min.. 19/3/2 on 56.0 ts

[3ba11]

How is he the most overrated? He had incredible scoring efficiency numbers and usually went up a level in the Playoffs and has a bunch of iconic moments. Pippen peaked a little higher in the mid-90s but it's a lot closer than you're making it out to be.


Pippen didn't peak higher unless you're talking media awards, which mean little for non-1st options that benefit from winning spotlight.

From a performance standpoint, it isn't close.. In the 1992 to 2002 Playoffs, Miller averaged 24 on 60 TS, which included 41% threes on 6 attempts.

He would shoot more threes and FT's in today's game and therefore average a lot more than 24.

Miller had many series of 24-30 ppg, which included destroying 00' Kobe or 02' Allen.. So Miller was a dominant 1st option that led his team to multiple conference finals or Finals without a single all-star teammate...

How can a low-producing, hustler and system player like Pippen compare to a dominant player like Miller or Curry?... It's preposterous.. And I'm not saying Miller = Curry, but his futuristic shooting had a similar effect on teams without much help.. Again, a low-producing system player like Pippen doesn't compare.. Miller and Pippen faced the same playoff opponent 6 times with Miller drastically outplaying Pippen all 6 times (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?503952-I-don-t-think-Scottie-Pippen-was-a-better-player-than-Reggie-Miller&p=14583331&viewfull=1#post14583331).

Btw, guys like Poole and Klay are similar caliber players - actually Poole is superior offensively - but Klay was around in 2015 to benefit from Curry's greatness, so he gets the historical ranking despite performing below Hornacek across the board (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?503952-I-don-t-think-Scottie-Pippen-was-a-better-player-than-Reggie-Miller&p=14583333&viewfull=1#post14583333)... So guys like Poole, Hornacek and many others compare well to Klay, except for their TIMING.. Guys like Klay and Pippen have the best timing ever, which inflates their historical ranking more than anyone ever.. In Pippen's case, he's the most overrated player in history BY FAR - imagine an Iggy-caliber player being top 30 all-time - that's Pippen - that's the most overrated player ever

[Phoenix]

.
Pippen and Miller played the same playoff opponent 5 times:



R Miller vs. 90' Pistons..... 20.7 on 57%... 17.9 usage
Pippen. vs. 90' Pistons..... 16.6 on 43%... 20.4 usage

R Miller vs 93' Knicks....... 31.5 on 53%... 27.5 usage
Pippen. vs 93' Knicks....... 22.5 on 51%... 28.4 usage

R Miller vs 94' Knicks....... 24.7 on 44%... 30.1 usage
Pippen. vs 94' Knicks....... 21.7 on 41%... 31.7 usage

R Miller vs 95' Magic........ 25.9 on 52%... 26.2 usage
Pippen. vs 95' Magic........ 19.0 on 42%... 23.1 usage

R Miller vs 00' Lakers....... 24.3 on 41%... 25.0 usage
Pippen. vs 00' Lakers....... 15.1 on 43%... 19.5 usage
Pippen. vs 99' Lakers....... 18.3 on 33%... 23.5 usage

R Miller 98' ECF............... 17.4 on 41%... 21.1 usage
Pippen. 98' ECF............... 16.6 on 39%... 26.0 usage


Miller had numerous conference finals and Finals runs without a single all-star teammate, while Pippen was barely .500 in 95' before MJ came back and carried him to another 3-peat (pippen averaged 17 on 41% for the entire 96-98' Playoffs).

Now compare their rebounds, assists, steals and blocks. We know your brain literally can't go past the PPG column, but let's see if you're talking about anything else today.

[3ba11]

Now compare their rebounds, assists, steals and blocks. We know your brain literally can't go past the PPG column, but let's see if you're talking about anything else today.


Everyone in history needed juggernaut scoring help and all-time elite scorers at sidekick to win multiple chips.. Even Hakeem needed Drexler.. 2nd scoring options must SCORE

So cut the crap by trying to minimize scoring help - scoring help is literally the most important thing that everyone in history needed a ton of except the GOAT.. that's how it's supposed to be - it's intuitive.. that's how GOAT jordan was - he made it intuitive.

Only MJ lacked a go-to teammate, so stop pretending other guys could win like that - they all needed juggernaut scoring help and couldn't win with a bum like Pippen

[tpols]

Reggie and Pippen faced the same common opponent a bunch of times in the 90s east playoffs. If you look at the productions Reggie completely smokes him offensively by every metric and was more clutch to boot. What clutch moments does Pippen have? Because Reggie has documentaries about his clutchness.

The only argument is defense but the pacers were able to field top 5 elite defense with Reggie playing full time. That's because good defense is cheaper than good offense. You could get a bunch of role players together and have a great defense. You can't have a great offense without stars though. Reggie offense > Pippen defense.

[Kblaze8855]

What clutch moments does Pippen have? Because Reggie has documentaries about his clutchness..

Nothing like a documentary that always fades to black with you walking off in defeat before a flashback to a dramatic shot that didn’t end up mattering. Reggie is the absolute goat far as producing espn segments that leave out how it ended

Hes hit shots in series you would remember that included games they lost because he wouldn’t box out and gave up a key offensive rebound and putback late that killed them. You have no idea what I’m talking about though because you’re a child of ESPN who hates them but buys into every narrative their tv specials sell.

Your kind tend to ignore what wins and loses games in favor of easy cliche answers and you rarely disappoint. I honestly don’t blame you. You’ve been indoctrinated by stories so long you never get to the truth.

A steal to end the finals will never make a tv special. But it’s in fact a bigger play than any of Reggie’s second round 3s that didn’t matter. Plenty of people made much bigger plays than Reggie. Dennis Johnson. Havlicek. Never compete with a choke signal to Spike Lee from a series no more important than 70 others you don’t care about.

A good story beats good substance to people not really that into the subject matter which is why Reggie would win a fan vote of young people vs dozens of people who kick his ass as a total player. Obviously a great player. Just a greater story to be told of dramatic but irrelevant moments.

[999Guy]

Klay guards other team's best player and has awards to show for it.


An 19/3/3 for his career player is closer to klay thomson than effing Steph Curry

Eh. Maybe in the regular seasons

Reggie Miller in the playoffs(1990-2002, some ancient years in here):

24.6 PP75, 3.3 AP75, 2 TOV .607 TS%

Curry playoffs career: 26.5 PP75, 6.5 AP75, 3.4 TOV, .611 TS%

Klay playoffs career: 19.42 PP75, 2.2 AP75, 1.8 TOV, .561 TS%


Klay Thompson is out of his depth here.

Now considering league average TS% was lower in Reggie’s career, he was defended with more defensive focus than even Curry considering talent, and he played pre-space and pace, you would be able to easily see how dominant he was, how outclassed Thompson is, and how much easier it would be to see Miller’s skill gap over damn near everybody except Harden/Paul/Curry in this era.

Make no mistake, Reggie does not need a hypothetical if he played today routine. He flat out single-handedly crushed defenses at the absolute highest level, in unfriendly conditions for his skill set, his entire career, even into middle age.

Thompson does not deserve a single mention next to his name ever again.

[warriorfan]

Lol LeBron stans melting down HARD in this thread.

[tpols]

Its not irrelevant because to take a team that far for that long (well over a decade) means something. Yea he lost to Jordan and Shaq and Ewing... that's expected. Those guys were better. Reggie still made it competitive though. Give Reggie a HOF sidekick instead of Rik Smits and were having a different conversation. Even though ironically even Smits outplayed Pippen H2H in the 1998 playoffs so it may have been worse for Reggie if that swap was made. :lol :facepalm

[tpols]

Eh. Maybe in the regular seasons

Reggie Miller in the playoffs(1990-2002, some ancient years in here):

24.6 PP75, 3.3 AP75, 2 TOV .607 TS%

Curry playoffs career: 26.5 PP75, 6.5 AP75, 3.4 TOV, .611 TS%

Klay playoffs career: 19.42 PP75, 2.2 AP75, 1.8 TOV, .561 TS%


Klay Thompson is out of his depth here.

Now considering league average TS% was lower in Reggie’s career, he was defended with more defensive focus than even Curry considering talent, and he played pre-space and pace, you would be able to easily see how dominant he was, how outclassed Thompson is, and how much easier it would be to see Miller’s skill gap over damn near everybody except Harden/Paul/Curry in this era.

Make no mistake, Reggie does not need a hypothetical if he played today routine. He flat out single-handedly crushed defenses at the absolute highest level, in unfriendly conditions for his skill set, his entire career, even into middle age.

Thompson does not deserve a single mention next to his name ever again.

Yup.

I see people lie about Reggie Miller all the time. Acting like he was some teeny bop scorer. The guy had tons of series 25-30+ ppg on super elite sharp shooting efficiency. His teams could still field elite defenses with him playing full time so that's overblown. What defensive stars did the Pacers have? Their role players were their best defenders. Because defense is cheap compared to offense from an individual perspective. People may as well say shane battier > Reggie.

[1987_Lakers]

Most overrated player in NBA history.

[Kblaze8855]

How would you give Reggie a HOF sidekick? Reggie would be the hall of fame sidekick to anyone who made the hall largely due to scoring. Who could you even mean? What HOF scorer of note would be Reggie’s sidekick?

[Kblaze8855]

Yup.

I see people lie about Reggie Miller all the time. Acting like he was some teeny bop scorer. The guy had tons of series 25-30+ ppg on super elite sharp shooting efficiency.


Reggie scored 25 a game in one playoff run that wasn’t a first round loss. In 18 years. He was 28 when he finally won a playoff series.

Reggie Millers career would get absolutely clowned today and you would be one of the main people doing it.

Reggie was The guy getting buried not the guy with the shovel.

[Phoenix]

Everyone in history needed juggernaut scoring help and all-time elite scorers at sidekick to win multiple chips.. Even Hakeem needed Drexler.. 2nd scoring options must SCORE

So cut the crap by trying to minimize scoring help - scoring help is literally the most important thing that everyone in history needed a ton of except the GOAT.. that's how it's supposed to be - it's intuitive.. that's how GOAT jordan was - he made it intuitive.

Only MJ lacked a go-to teammate, so stop pretending other guys could win like that - they all needed juggernaut scoring help and couldn't win with a bum like Pippen

So in response to my request to compare their rebounds, assists, steals and blocks, you doubled down on your scoring rhetoric. Nobody is minimizing scoring help, the point is you trivialize every other aspect of the game. You're a broken record and your reply was right on-brand.

[tpols]

Why would I clown Reggie if he played now? A super elite shooter and skilled player who would be dropping 30 a game with timely clutch play. That's... right up my alley. I like skilled players and Reggie was one of the most skilled basketball players ever. So why would I hate on him? I don't hate on guys just because they lost. I look at specifically their game. How often have I hated on curry or Kawhi or Jokic etc. when they lost? Not much because they ussually did their part but just didn't win that time.

Am I gonna hate on Durant for losing to the bucks last year by a pinky toe while playing great? No. This year so far vs the Celtics? Yes. He played way better last year (so far) and that means something.

There's a huge difference between playing like crap and losing and playing great and losing. I don't get how that's such a hard concept. If Westbrook was a sharp shooting beast who made everybody better and played with high IQ I'd rep him. But he's the opposite of all those things so I don't.

[Kblaze8855]

Reggie miller isn’t one of the most skilled players ever. Nothing he does on a court other than move without the ball and shoot are exceptional. He’d be among the worst ball handling guards in the league at any point of the last 40 years and his passing was average from a standstill and below average off the dribble.

Kyrie, Kobe, Steph, Nash, Isiah, Paul, Jordan…those are among the most skilled guards ever. Reggie isn’t near that tier. He also wasn’t as skilled as Harden or Manu or….a lot of people. A whole lot.

He was Rip Hamilton plus 5 feet of range, an underrated but not exceptional post game, and about half a teaspoon of crafty mixed with the kinda ho like flopping that wasn’t embraced by others for another decade or so.

Hed be a menace today. Scoring 27-30 a game I’m sure. But he wouldn’t be next to the likes of Kyrie far as skills.

[tpols]

I'm a huge kyrie fan but I bet reggie would outshoot him today. Kyries got the dribbling, miller has the off ball game. A bucket is a bucket doesnt matter if you need 0 dribbles or 8 dribbles. In fact I would argue the less dribbles it takes to set up your shot the better because it means the ball is moving and teamwork is being maximized. The Nets have been losing even when kyrie went nuts because they're playing a shitty iso brand of ball right now.

[Kblaze8855]

And of course you’d clown him. Most would. Nobody today could miss the playoffs entirely or lose in the first round 6-7 years in a row and not get laughed at. Much much much better players than Reggie got it bad for losing and many of them didn’t have 19/10/6 guys like Detlef along with Smits and/or Person depending on the time in question.

Tmac to this day gets clowned for losing with teams that don’t even sound realistic when you read the roster. You think Reggie gets saved with his CJ McCollum numbers?

Nah.

[Kblaze8855]

I'm a huge kyrie fan but I bet reggie would outshoot him today. Kyries got the dribbling, miller has the off ball game. A bucket is a bucket doesnt matter if you need 0 dribbles or 8 dribbles. In fact I would argue the less dribbles it takes to set up your shot the better because it means the ball is moving and teamwork is being maximized. The Nets have been losing even when kyrie went nuts because they're playing a shitty iso brand of ball right now.


Klay outshoots Kyrie. A lot of people can shoot with Kyrie. They are almost all far less skilled with the ball and so is Reggie.

Kyrie, Kobe, Jordan and Nash types just do not belong on a skills list with Reggie.

Whatever tier you put him on it’s not the top one and it isn’t the next one either. If Reggie had Manus handle/passing combo he’d have actually been the kind of elite you like pretending he was in defiance of everyone actually watching him play at the time.

[tpols]

CJ McCollum has nowhere near the shot making rate of Reggie Miller. Were talking an enormous efficiency gap in the playoffs on lower volume while being a clear cut 2nd option. Its just... worlds apart. The fact of the matter is points generated divided by possessions matters. If you connect way more... that matters. It would matter in literally any sport.

[Kblaze8855]

Apparently it didn’t matter much.

Efficiently scoring less points than your team needs results in absolutely nothing.

[tpols]

And of course you’d clown him. Most would. Nobody today could miss the playoffs entirely or lose in the first round 6-7 years in a row and not get laughed at. Much much much better players than Reggie got it bad for losing and many of them didn’t have 19/10/6 guys like Detlef along with Smits and/or Person depending on the time in question.

Tmac to this day gets clowned for losing with teams that don’t even sound realistic when you read the roster. You think Reggie gets saved with his CJ McCollum numbers?

Nah.

Nah its just not what I do. How often did I hate on AD when he lost every year in the 1st round? Never because he played great. 30/10 on super elite efficiency just lost to the better team. Ive always looked at how guys play plus whatever additional context was needed when formulating opinions. There's not a chance I'd hate on Reggie today. :oldlol:

[Kblaze8855]

Giannis has been doing like 27/13/6 on 55% in the playoffs for a good half decade, playing great d in the process, and it took a 50 point title clinching game for you to begrudgingly back off for about 45 minutes. And you’re dying to keep hating now. You mock Chris Paul for losing despite shooting 55/52 in the finals.

Reggie wouldn’t escape. Your concern for efficiency is very selective. I don’t think it survives not winning a series till age 28. Not without some kinda outside emotional issue like needing to prop him up or hate for the sake of another player the way this place does with anyone who even brushes against the career of a Jordan/Lebron/Kobe type.

[ImKobe]

Your answer is the post above this one.

That doesn't answer the question. How often does Reggie get brought up as one of the ATGs?

I only hear him mentioned nowadays when they talk about the all-time 3PT shooters, but no one's putting Reggie top 20-30 all-time or anything crazy like that.

If you actually go through all his Playoff moments and the advanced metrics, he's very underrated in comparison to some of these guys who get mentioned before him from that same era. Him not being 1st team All-NBA in an era where Jordan was always a lock for one of the guard spots is not a good argument IMO. If anything, he should have made more All-Star/All-NBA teams with the production he had, and it was consistent from one year to the other and rarely missed any games.


He put up 25/4/4 on 51.4%FG/64.5%TS in his 3rd season and didn't make an All-NBA team. Joe Dumars averaged 18/3/5 48%FG/55.5%TS and made it over him.

He put up 23/3/4 on 51.2%FG/65%TS(led the league) in '91, again didn't make the All-NBA team over Dumars. Wasn't even an All-Star.

The guard spots were LOADED those years though with MJ/Magic being a lock for 1st team, followed by Drexler/KJ/Stockton who were all in their primes, and Dumars was playing on a championship squad.

He didn't make an All-Star team again until '95. That's also only because he went off against the Knicks in an all-time ECF match up that the Pacers almost won as a huge underdog after they went up 3 - 2 with Reggie's 25 points in the 4th @MSG.

It was obviously a different era and the media wasn't into the advanced metrics but this just shows you that he was underrated for his time. He should have more RS accolades than he got based on his production/consistency & games played. He only made 5 All-Star teams when he was a 20-25 ppg 60+%TS scorer for 9 straight years and still put up 18-19 a game at a similar efficiency another 3 years after his prime.

[Bronbron23]

In the 1992 - 2002 Playoffs, Miller averaged 24 ppg on 60% true shooting, including 41% threes on 6 attempts... He would average more in today's game by shooting a lot more threes and FT's

Miller dominated many series with 25-30 ppg and destroyed Kobe in the Finals, or peak Ray Allen in 02' - so Miller was absolutely that top-level dominant perimeter player that would explode in today's format.. It's an insult to compare a low-producing system player and transition player like Pippen to a dominant player like Miller

Yeah it's simple math. He'd be shooting more attempts, more threes and more foul shots and probably be more efficient given how open guys are because of the rules and style of play.

[Kblaze8855]

I feel like this section is enough to answer



He put up 25/4/4 on 51.4%FG/64.5%TS in his 3rd season and didn't make an All-NBA team. Joe Dumars averaged 18/3/5 48%FG/55.5%TS and made it over him.

He put up 23/3/4 on 51.2%FG/65%TS(led the league) in '91, again didn't make the All-NBA team over Dumars. Wasn't even an All-Star.



Think for a moment about the voters. In this case coaches. Fans might vote whoever. They voted in BJ Armstrong. Coaches pick the other 7 though.

What do you think the nba coaches saw in Dumars they respected more than what they saw from peak Reggie?

You hear coaches talk all the time. What do they talk about a lot more than fans?

I won’t answer. I’ll let you.

Why do you think an nba coach would be more impressed with Joe Dumars?

[tpols]

Giannis has been doing like 27/13/6 on 55% in the playoffs for a good half decade, playing great d in the process, and it took a 50 point title clinching game for you to begrudgingly back off for about 45 minutes. And you’re dying to keep hating now. You mock Chris Paul for losing despite shooting 55/52 in the finals.

Reggie wouldn’t escape. Your concern for efficiency is very selective. I don’t think it survives not winning a series till age 28. Not without some kinda outside emotional issue like needing to prop him up or hate for the sake of another player the way this place does with anyone who even brushes against the career of a Jordan/Lebron/Kobe type.

Well Giannis is a whole different story because he's reffed horribly. Literally his whole game is hitting people out the way and having the person who got hit called for a foul. In game 6, Giannis shot more FTs himself than the entire suns team combined. Its fraudulent.

Chris Paul did choke last year in that game 4 every body saw it. From a skills perspective I've always respected Chris paul. He's another GOAT tier skilled basketball player like Reggie. Just not as clutch.

[ImKobe]

Yeah it's simple math. He'd be shooting more attempts, more threes and more foul shots and probably be more efficient given how open guys are because of the rules and style of play.

And people compare him to Klay with the numbers & all which is a fair argument, but a younger Reggie was getting to the line 6-7 times a game. He's 4th all-time in ORTG, according to BBref.

[3ba11]

Where's Pippen's conference Finals run or Finals run where he destroyed everyone?

In the 90-02' Playoffs, Reggie averaged 3 ppg less than Curry's career playoff average with equal efficiency, despite shooting a lot less threes and FT's than he would in today's game.

So Reggie was a dominant player that could lead a team of zero all-stars to multiple conference finals or Finals, while Pippen was a low-producing system player that was lottery in 95' until MJ returned

[Kblaze8855]

And people compare him to Klay with the numbers & all which is a fair argument, but a younger Reggie was getting to the line 6-7 times a game. He's 4th all-time in ORTG, according to BBref.


And who is #1?

[Kblaze8855]

Well Giannis is a whole different story because he's reffed horribly. Literally his whole game is hitting people out the way and having the person who got hit called for a foul. In game 6, Giannis shot more FTs himself than the entire suns team combined. Its fraudulent.

Chris Paul did choke last year in that game 4 every body saw it. From a skills perspective I've always respected Chris paul. He's another GOAT tier skilled basketball player like Reggie. Just not as clutch.

Uh huh.

Run down the basketball skills Reggie has on or above the level of Chris Paul.

Ill help.

Shooting. Off the ball movement.

What are the others? Must be quite a few to overcome the drastic difference in handles, passing, and defense. You gonna come act like 7 different aspects of shooting are entirely different skills?

[3ba11]

Klay's numbers are nowhere near Hornacek, let alone Reggie.. It's a joke...

But unfortunately, non-1st options that won rings get inflated by the winning spotlight into all-time greats when they aren't even better than Jordan Poole - they simply had lucky timing to arrive in the league alongside a transcendent player like Curry or Michael

[Kblaze8855]

Klay's numbers are nowhere near Hornacek, let alone Reggie.. It's a joke (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?503952-I-don-t-think-Scottie-Pippen-was-a-better-player-than-Reggie-Miller&p=14583333&viewfull=1#post14583333)...

But unfortunately, non-1st options that won rings get inflated by the winning spotlight into all-time greats when they aren't even better than Jordan Poole - they simply had lucky timing to arrive in the league alongside a transcendent player like Curry or Michael


It took 13 years for you to realize Steph could even make the nba of the 1970s. That’s if you currently assume he could. He was already 3 rings in when you were saying he couldn’t hang with Gail Goodrich when I asked.

[ShawkFactory]

Well Giannis is a whole different story because he's reffed horribly. Literally his whole game is hitting people out the way and having the person who got hit called for a foul. In game 6, Giannis shot more FTs himself than the entire suns team combined. Its fraudulent.

Chris Paul did choke last year in that game 4 every body saw it. From a skills perspective I've always respected Chris paul. He's another GOAT tier skilled basketball player like Reggie. Just not as clutch.

Wait..what?

Also, are you saying that Reggie Miller was a better basketball player than Chris Paul?

[3ba11]

Wait..what?

Also, are you saying that Reggie Miller was a better basketball player than Chris Paul?


Reggie won more with less than CP3 due to superior brand of ball and style of play

CP3 had a bunch of all-star casts and couldn't do shit

Any role player can bring the ball up like Derek Fisher or Paxson, so great PG's are overrated and unnecessary... Starting the possession is the LEAST important - the only thing that matters is how a possession CLOSES

[ImKobe]

I feel like this section is enough to answer






Think for a moment about the voters. In this case coaches. Fans might vote whoever. They voted in BJ Armstrong. Coaches pick the other 7 though.

What do you think the nba coaches saw in Dumars they respected more than what they saw from peak Reggie?

You hear coaches talk all the time. What do they talk about a lot more than fans?

I won’t answer. I’ll let you.

Why do you think an nba coach would be more impressed with Joe Dumars?

Because Dumars was playing on a title contender and had the opportunity to showcase his talent on the big stage. Put Dumars on the Pacers & Reggie on the Pistons and it's Reggie making the All-NBA/All-Star teams. It's that simple.

Reggie didn't get picked to an All-NBA team and had only made 1 All-Star in his prime before going off on the Knicks in the ECF. He needed to be on a bigger stage to get the recognition from the fans/media/coaches. Do you think they had the advanced metrics back then to see how much of an impact he really had? His team wasn't good but his production was the same, it's not like he finally became a better player and then "deserved" those accolades. He did the same thing for 4 straight years prior to that in the RS and didn't get awarded for it.

You can look at the advanced metrics year-by-year and see that he's top 10-20 in most of them, ahead of Pippen himself in some years as well.

He was good enough as a player but got overlooked because of the teams he played on, thus he was actually underrated for his era. End of argument.

[Shooter]

He's the only player that gets top 75 talk with accolades as shitty as that. Find me one other player that did less:

Reggie Miller has zero:
•All NBA 1st team
•All NBA 2nd team
•All defensive 1st
•All defensive 2nd
•Top 3 MVP finishes
•Top 5 MVP finishes
•Championships
•Seasons above 25 ppg

Couldn't find one player in the top 75 with worse accolades? Exactly.

[ShawkFactory]

Reggie won more with less than CP3 due to superior brand of ball and style of play

CP3 had a bunch of all-star casts and couldn't do shit

Any role player can bring the ball up like Derek Fisher or Paxson, so great PG's are overrated and unnecessary... Starting the possession is the LEAST important - the only thing that matters is how a possession CLOSES

Look at you trying to apply your theory to everything
:lol

[tpols]

Uh huh.

Run down the basketball skills Reggie has on or above the level of Chris Paul.

Ill help.

Shooting. Off the ball movement.

What are the others? Must be quite a few to overcome the drastic difference in handles, passing, and defense. You gonna come act like 7 different aspects of shooting are entirely different skills?

Being overwhelmingly dominant in one thing can supersede being well rounded. Chauncey Billups had a better handle than reggie, better passing, better "defensive skill", and still good shooting. But he wasn't more skilled than Reggie because his shooting and scoring proficiency was so high that it eclipsed the rest.

Being an 11/10 in one area can lead to more dominance than being a 7-8/10 in most areas. Its why Dirk is considered on KGs level even though KG was the better defender, passer, dribbler, rebounder etc. Because his scoring and shooting were that game breaking.

[Kblaze8855]

So these coaches we nightly hear stress defense(and they did the same thing then) did not consider the total game when selecting Joe?


Ok. It was his title winning hype.

Why did the coaches also choose Hersey Hawkins?

What does Google tell you 30 years later that they couldn’t see nightly?

[Phoenix]

Because Dumars was playing on a title contender and had the opportunity to showcase his talent on the big stage. Put Dumars on the Pacers & Reggie on the Pistons and it's Reggie making the All-NBA/All-Star teams. It's that simple.

Reggie didn't get picked to an All-NBA team and had only made 1 All-Star in his prime before going off on the Knicks in the ECF. He needed to be on a bigger stage to get the recognition from the fans/media/coaches.

If that's the case how did Mitch Richmond end up with five all-nba teams( three 2nd teams) and 6 all-star teams while playing for Sacramento in the same time period as Reggie's peak years?

[ImKobe]

And who is #1?

Gobert, and we can get into the screen assist numbers or the fact that the Jazz have tanked on offense without him on the court in most of his seasons but that's not really the point here, right?

Reggie had massive impact on the offensive end. Sadly, the data is only available from '97 and onwards, but even then he had 2 seasons where his team was 9-10 points per 100 worse on offense with him on the bench and he was in his 30s at that point.

[3ba11]

Look at you trying to apply your theory to everything
:lol


The facts bear out the theory

Ball-dominators win less and need more help than than combo guys like MJ, Kobe, Bird, Curry or Kawhi

Magic makes the case - he needed the most stacked teams in history including the alleged GOAT as a teammate, yet he was barely .500 in the Finals!!!

If the 2 most imposing ball-dominators in history (Magic/Lebron) are losers in the Finals (9-10) despite mostly super-teams, then ball-dominance is suboptimal and requires shit-tons of help to win.

Now when we look at lesser ball-dominators like CP3, Westbrook, Nash or Harden, we see that they're perennial playoff disappointers and need the same super-team help that Magic/Lebron needed to win

Otoh, combo guys like Curry or MJ can win with secondary scorers at sidekick like Pippen or Klay or Lowry - no super-team needed

[Kblaze8855]

Being overwhelmingly dominant in one thing can supersede being well rounded. Chauncey Billups had a better handle than reggie, better passing, better "defensive skill", and still good shooting. But he wasn't more skilled than Reggie because his shooting and scoring proficiency was so high that it eclipsed the rest.

Being an 11/10 in one area can lead to more dominance than being a 7-8/10 in most areas. Its why Dirk is considered on KGs level even though KG was the better defender, passer, dribbler, rebounder etc. Because his scoring and shooting were that game breaking.


Overwhelmingly dominant?

Thads what you call mid 20s ppg while losing? Efficiency doesn’t make you dominant. An efficient 23 doesn’t count as 43 on the scoreboard.

Dirk was a “Take care of it himself” scorer and that ability to go get it without help is where he found most of his dominance.

You wouldn’t put Reggie in Dirks position for a very good reason his own coach put voice to:





"I know people are going to say Reggie didn't do this or that, but I've always said it's a team thing for him," said Brown. "He has trouble getting his own shot, beating people off the dribble. He's not what people make him out to be.".

[ImKobe]

If that's the case how did Mitch Richmond end up with five all-nba teams( three 2nd teams) and 6 all-stat teams while playing for Sacramento in the same time period as Reggie's peak years?

That was the case with Reggie. Richmond played out West so he had an easier time getting into some of the ASG,I guess they valued raw ppg more than Reggie's unbelievable efficiency, and I'm not sure they could really see how efficient Reggie really was at the time without the advanced metrics. Richmond did play in the 2nd round a couple times on the Warriors so he did have more Playoff games under his belt than Reggie for a while there. Reggie only played 15 Playoff games total before that '94 run and didn't make out of the 1st round in 4 tries, despite having solid Playoff numbers (25.1 ppg on 53.4%FG/67.7%TS).

[3ba11]

Overwhelmingly dominant?

Thads what you call mid 20s ppg while losing? Efficiency doesn’t make you dominant. An efficient 23 doesn’t count as 43 on the scoreboard.

Dirk was a “Take care of it himself” scorer and that ability to go get it without help is where he found most of his dominance.

You wouldn’t put Reggie in Dirks position for a very good reason his own coach put voice to:


Curry averages 26.5 for his playoff career compared to Miller's 23.5 over twice as many playoff runs (90-02'), despite a playing in a horrific era for 3-point attempts and FT's

Miller's top-tier playoff dominance and futuristic spacing impact is why he had numerous conference finals or Finals runs with zero all-star teammates.. Klay and Pippen can't come anywhere near doing that... Klay needed Curry and Pippen needed the GOAT because neither were top-tier dominators like Reggie

[ShawkFactory]

The facts bear out the theory

Ball-dominators win less and need more help than than combo guys like MJ, Kobe, Bird, Curry or Kawhi

Magic makes the case - he needed the most stacked teams in history including the alleged GOAT as a teammate, yet he was barely .500 in the Finals!!!

If the 2 most imposing ball-dominators in history (Magic/Lebron) are losers in the Finals (9-10) despite mostly super-teams, then ball-dominance is suboptimal and requires shit-tons of help to win.

Now when we look at lesser ball-dominators like CP3, Westbrook, Nash or Harden, we see that they're perennial playoff disappointers and need the same super-team help that Magic/Lebron needed to win

Otoh, combo guys like Curry or MJ can win with secondary scorers at sidekick like Pippen or Klay or Lowry - no super-team needed

Do I need to break down each team CP3 joined and show you how massively better they got? Ok, sure I will!

The Suns went from a bummy 34-39 lottery team to the finals literally in the span on 9 months.

The Thunder had .598 win % in 2019, lost Westbrook and Paul George, added Chris Paul and had had a .611 % the next year.

The Rockets gained 10 wins in 2018, going from a second round out to a juggernaut that almost certainly wins the title if Paul doesn't get hurt.

The Clippers went from a .390 win % in 2011 to .606 in 2012.

The Hornets went from 18-64 to 38-44 upon drafting him.

All historical record my friend. Reggie Miller > Chris Paul is an outrageous take. One of the sillier things I've seen on here.

[Phoenix]

Magic makes the case - he needed the most stacked teams in history including the alleged GOAT as a teammate, yet he was barely .500 in the Finals!!!




Let's look at Magic's finals losses and who was on those teams:

83 Sixers with Moses Malone, Dr. J, Andrew Toney, Mo Cheeks, Bobby Jones
84 Celtics with Bird, Mchale, Parish, DJ
89 Pistons- Isiah, Dumars, Microwave, Laimbeer, Rodman
91- the guy you spent 30k posts and counting talking about for a decade

His 83 and 84 opponents were 'stacked' as well with HOF talent and GOAT level players, 89 Pistons are an all-time team in their own right and Magic was injured that series( the Lakers potentially lose regardless, but not exactly a bad loss to that team), and 91 he loses to peak MJ at the end of his prime and 3 years past the point the Lakers were 'showtime'. You talk like he lose to scrubs.

[Johnny32]

reggie is laughably overrated. if it wasn't for 96-98 jordone he'd be the most overrated player of all time.

[3ba11]

Let's look at Magic's finals losses and who was on those teams:

83 Sixers with Moses Malone, Dr. J, Andrew Toney, Mo Cheeks, Bobby Jones
84 Celtics with Bird, Mchale, Parish, DJ
89 Pistons- Isiah, Dumars, Microwave, Laimbeer, Rodman
91- the guy you spent 30k posts and counting talking about for a decade

His 83 and 84 opponents were 'stacked' as well with HOF talent and GOAT level players, 89 Pistons are an all-time team in their own right and Magic was injured that series( the Lakers potentially lose regardless, but not exactly a bad loss to that team), and 91 he loses to peak MJ at the end of his prime and 3 years past the point the Lakers were 'showtime'. You talk like he lose to scrubs.


Super-team losses are always unacceptable and Magic had the alleged GOAT as a teammate.. No one had more help than Magic - it was unfair tbh... Just like Lebron's collusions

If the 2 most imposing ball-dominators in history (Magic/Lebron) are losers in the Finals (9-10) despite mostly super-teams, then ball-dominance is suboptimal and requires shit-tons of help to win.

Now when we look at lesser ball-dominators like CP3, Westbrook, Nash or Harden, we see that they're perennial playoff disappointers that never got the same super-team help that Magic/Lebron needed to win

Otoh, combo guys like Curry or MJ can win with secondary scorers at sidekick like Pippen or Klay or Lowry - no super-team needed

[Phoenix]

That was the case with Reggie. Richmond played out West so he had an easier time getting into some of the ASG,I guess they valued raw ppg more than Reggie's unbelievable efficiency, and I'm not sure they could really see how efficient Reggie really was at the time without the advanced metrics. Richmond did play in the 2nd round a couple times on the Warriors so he did have more Playoff games under his belt than Reggie for a while there. Reggie only played 15 Playoff games total before that '94 run and didn't make out of the 1st round in 4 tries, despite having solid Playoff numbers (25.1 ppg on 53.4%FG/67.7%TS).

Even if the all-star game was easier to get in as a western guard( I don't know if that's the case, but I'm not interested in arguing that particular point), the all-NBA team is certainly a more telling measure of who the voting media thought was better in that time period. And there was no more obscure place to play for most of the 90s than the Sacramento Kings, which is where I question Reggie needing a 'bigger spotlight' to be more recognized.

[Phoenix]

Super-team losses are always unacceptable and Magic had the alleged GOAT as a teammate.. No one had more help than Magic - it was unfair tbh... Just like Lebron's collusions

If the 2 most imposing ball-dominators in history (Magic/Lebron) are losers in the Finals (9-10) despite mostly super-teams, then ball-dominance is suboptimal and requires shit-tons of help to win.

Now when we look at lesser ball-dominators like CP3, Westbrook, Nash or Harden, we see that they're perennial playoff disappointers that never got the same super-team help that Magic/Lebron needed to win

Otoh, combo guys like Curry or MJ can win with secondary scorers at sidekick like Pippen or Klay or Lowry - no super-team needed

Let's look at Magic's finals losses and who was on those teams:

83 Sixers with Moses Malone, Dr. J, Andrew Toney, Mo Cheeks, Bobby Jones
84 Celtics with Bird, Mchale, Parish, DJ
89 Pistons- Isiah, Dumars, Microwave, Laimbeer, Rodman
91- the guy you spent 30k posts and counting talking about for a decade

His 83 and 84 opponents were 'stacked' as well with HOF talent and GOAT level players, 89 Pistons are an all-time team in their own right and Magic was injured that series( the Lakers potentially lose regardless, but not exactly a bad loss to that team), and 91 he loses to peak MJ at the end of his prime and 3 years past the point the Lakers were 'showtime'. You talk like he lose to scrubs.

I mean if we're copy/pasting....:confusedshrug:

[tpols]

I don't know how somebody who has more playoffs points scored than Charles Barkley, Kawhi Leonard, Chris Paul, Ray Allen, Kevin Garnett, Rick Barry, Pat Ewing etc. can be considered to not be able to get their own shot. Reggie has made more shots than some of the best scorers ever... playing with different point guards his whole career... who was bird feeding him? If anything his ability to create off ball separation is what got him his shots. Nick van exel could break guys down off the dribble all day and he wasn't half the player Reggie was. Putting the ball in the basket is what matters. Not how many fancy dribbles you had to take to do it.

[ImKobe]

So these coaches we nightly hear stress defense(and they did the same thing then) did not consider the total game when selecting Joe?


Ok. It was his title winning hype.

Why did the coaches also choose Hersey Hawkins?

What does Google tell you 30 years later that they couldn’t see nightly?

So Joe Dumars didn't get in because he was a name that everyone knew and played for one of the best teams at the time? Please. It's the ****ing All-Star game.

[3ba11]

I don't know how somebody who has more playoffs points scored than Charles Barkley, Kawhi Leonard, Chris Paul, Ray Allen, Kevin Garnett, Rick Barry, Pat Ewing etc. can be considered to not be able to get their own shot. Reggie has made more shots than some of the best scorers ever... playing with different point guards his whole career... who was bird feeding him? If anything his ability to create off ball separation is what got him his shots. Nick van exel could break guys down off the dribble all day and he wasn't half the player Reggie was. Putting the ball in the basket is what matters. Not how many fancy dribbles you had to take to do it.


In the 90-02' Playoffs, Reggie was getting 7 FTA as a jumpshooter and had good 2-point volume (10 attempts per game on 49%), so he was a crafty pure scorer

[Kblaze8855]

I don't know how somebody who has more playoffs points scored than Charles Barkley, Kawhi Leonard, Chris Paul, Ray Allen, Kevin Garnett, Rick Barry, Pat Ewing etc. can be considered to not be able to get their own shot. Reggie has made more shots than some of the best scorers ever...


It’s quite possible. Klay has more than Iverson, David Robinson, Moses Malone and like 100 other hall of famers. They are unrelated issues. Reggie needing help to get shots wasn’t a secret. Larry wasn’t releasing classified information.

[Hey Yo]

Eh. Maybe in the regular seasons

Reggie Miller in the playoffs(1990-2002, some ancient years in here):

24.6 PP75, 3.3 AP75, 2 TOV .607 TS%

Curry playoffs career: 26.5 PP75, 6.5 AP75, 3.4 TOV, .611 TS%

Klay playoffs career: 19.42 PP75, 2.2 AP75, 1.8 TOV, .561 TS%


Klay Thompson is out of his depth here.

Now considering league average TS% was lower in Reggie’s career, he was defended with more defensive focus than even Curry considering talent, and he played pre-space and pace, you would be able to easily see how dominant he was, how outclassed Thompson is, and how much easier it would be to see Miller’s skill gap over damn near everybody except Harden/Paul/Curry in this era.

Make no mistake, Reggie does not need a hypothetical if he played today routine. He flat out single-handedly crushed defenses at the absolute highest level, in unfriendly conditions for his skill set, his entire career, even into middle age.

Thompson does not deserve a single mention next to his name ever again.

Unfriendly conditions like a shortened 3pt line for 3 consecutive seasons in his prime??

[Kblaze8855]

So Joe Dumars didn't get in because he was a name that everyone knew and played for one of the best teams at the time? Please. It's the ****ing All-Star game.

Dumars got in for the same reason he’d have been taken first if you asked the coaches at the time.

He was better at basketball.

He was like a 5-6 time all d player who could play both guard spots and score 20 in the process.

He was considerably better at the game. But plays like this don’t make espn specials:


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/CompleteEuphoricDrafthorse-size_restricted.gif


Even when they win finals games.





And passes like this might be beautiful:


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/UnkemptResponsibleKusimanse-size_restricted.gif






But he didn’t gesture at a celebrity after so it’s never been on tv.


Better basketball player though.

[FultzNationRISE]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/UnkemptResponsibleKusimanse-size_restricted.gif




:lebronamazed:


Lawdy.

[tpols]

It’s quite possible. Klay has more than Iverson, David Robinson, Moses Malone and like 100 other hall of famers. They are unrelated issues. Reggie needing help to get shots wasn’t a secret. Larry wasn’t releasing classified information.

Post Reggie and Iversons H2H playoff numbers. They played against each other a lot. It is the perfect example to show how much dribbling can be overrated. Reggie smoked him.

[ImKobe]

Better player by 90s standards for sure, and I really don't want to downplay how good Dumars was.

But you're not answering the question...

How is Reggie Miller overrated?

[3ba11]

It’s quite possible. Klay has more than Iverson, David Robinson, Moses Malone and like 100 other hall of famers. They are unrelated issues. Reggie needing help to get shots wasn’t a secret. Larry wasn’t releasing classified information.


Assisted rate

Miller.... 25-35%
Klay...... 15-25%


:confusedshrug:

Miller was a rich man's Klay that could iso.. :applause:

So he could iso better than Klay and averaged the same as Curry over twice as many playoff runs (era-adjusted) - Curry averaged 26.5 for his 7-year playoff career compared to 23.5 for Miller from 90-02', except Miller didn't have today's format that yields far more 3 point attempts and FT's

Superior iso ability than Klay + Curry scoring average = carrying teams with zero all-stars to multiple conference finals or Finals

[Johnny32]

Post Reggie and Iversons H2H playoff numbers. They played against each other a lot. It is the perfect example to show how much dribbling can be overrated. Reggie smoked him.

ai outscored him every series. isn't that all you mouth breathing tards look at, points per gm.

[ShawkFactory]

Better player by 90s standards for sure, and I really don't want to downplay how good Dumars was.

But you're not answering the question...

How is Reggie Miller overrated?

You have people in this thread saying he was better than Chris Paul.

That's how.

[tpols]

ai outscored him every series. isn't that all you mouth breathing tards look at, points per gm.

No dummy we look at rates. Combined with volume and context. Reggie was outscored by 1 ppg on 7 less shots per game. Which is totally absurd. It wasn't even close.

[Kblaze8855]

Better player by 90s standards for sure, and I really don't want to downplay how good Dumars was.

But you're not answering the question...

How is Reggie Miller overrated?



Imagine a scale.

On one end put a players ability. Skills. Whatever you wanna call the total game of basketball.


On the other end put his fame. How well he’s known.



List the players more unbalanced than Reggie.

Maybe you come up with 5(not 5 legit but you might say 5 names).

You aren’t coming up with many.

Reggie might be a top 5 well known basketball figure of an era he was never considered elite in. If you list Reggie, Dumars, Dennis Johnson, Kevin Johnson, and Sidney Moncrief and made fans list them in order he’d probably come out first….and it isn’t due to an evaluation of their games.

His name value far exceeds his ability. That generally gets you overrated. In a world where people don’t even know who 3 time mvps were Reggie has a solid following among people who don’t even remember 1992. Some in this topic.

People in here talking about his handles. You could find a clip of him making a nice move or two like anyone but the man used to post up to bring the ball up vs pressure or throw it to someone else. He couldn’t dribble forward confidently vs a press and people talking about handles….

He just has an unusual combo of uninformed and dishonest in his support base. Near as I can tell the only real pacers fan here I know remembers the time thinks I’m closer to the truth than the supporters who constantly shit on players they don’t even remember trying to prop him up. Considering his use of Big Z and Mo love to see what 3ball would say about a Lebron team with 5 people who made all star games with all of them being 25-29. With Reggie it’s a terrible team. Not deep vets who know how to play together. It’s garbage help.

The guy is just consistently discussed and credited more than his general level justifies. Reggie wouldn’t even be a top tier 6th man of all time(Hondo, Manu, Worthy, Mchale and so on) and we have people acting like he’s one of the top players period. And in a topic he’s compared to a guy who he himself chose….as the player he’d most like to swap games with.

Its just funny. All Reggie topics are.

[SouBeachTalents]

Imagine a scale.

On one end put a players ability. Skills. Whatever you wanna call the total game of basketball.


On the other end put his fame. How well he’s known.



List the players more unbalanced than Reggie.

Maybe you come up with 5(not 5 legit but you might say 5 names).

You aren’t coming up with many.

Reggie might be a top 5 well known basketball figure of an era he was never considered elite in. If you list Reggie, Dumars, Dennis Johnson, Kevin Johnson, and Sidney Moncrief and made fans list them in order he’d probably come out first….and it isn’t due to an evaluation of their games.

His name value far exceeds his ability. That generally gets you overrated. In a world where people don’t even know who 3 time mvps were Reggie has a solid following among people who don’t even remember 1992. Some in this topic.

People in here talking about his handles. You could find a clip of him making a nice move or two like anyone but the man used to post up to bring the ball up vs pressure or throw it to someone else. He couldn’t dribble forward confidently vs a press and people talking about handles….

He just has an unusual combo of uninformed and dishonest in his support base. Near as I can tell the only real pacers fan here I know remembers the time thinks I’m closer to the truth than the supporters who constantly shit on players they don’t even remember trying to prop him up. Considering his use of Big Z and Mo love to see what 3ball would say about a Lebron team with 5 people who made all star games with all of them being 25-29. With Reggie it’s a terrible team. Not deep vets who know how to play together. It’s garbage help.

The guy is just consistently discussed and credited more than his general level justifies. Reggie wouldn’t even be a top tier 6th man of all time(Hondo, Manu, Worthy, Mchale and so on) and we have people acting like he’s one of the top players period. And in a topic he’s compared to a guy who he himself chose….as the player he’d most like to swap games with.

Its just funny. All Reggie topics are.
Just looking at some of the rankings released since the 75th anniversary team was announced, Reggie ranked 54th, 51st & 47th on the ones I found, and a list of some of the players he was ranked ahead of

Payton
Pierce
Nique
Allen
AD
McGrady
Dwight
Gervin
Drexler
Frazier

And this is for a guy who received an MVP vote two seasons in his career, finishing 13th & 16th, and never made an All-NBA 2nd Team.

[Kblaze8855]

Imagine being all nba first team over Magic Johnson, a 10 time all star, and 10 time all nba with multiple top 3 mvp finishes and being ranked behind someone coaches didn’t take over Mookie Blaylock because nobody gives a shit about you.

The media, playing in the right era, and a good narrative do a lot more than basketball ability for some.

Life isn’t fair. Nobody thinks it is. But there are a lot of guys who deserve to come up more than Reggie does. But they don’t. What does Walt Frazier have to do to get a mention?

Maybe Walt’s better than Pippen. Maybe. Maybe Nique is. Whoever. Hell maybe Joe Dumars. But it’s Reggie who keeps getting the talk.

[3ba11]

ai outscored him every series. isn't that all you mouth breathing tards look at, points per gm.


2001 1st Round

Iverson..... 31.5 on 38%..... 51 TS
Miller........ 31.3 on 46%..... 61 TS


Miller either outplayed or defeated Iverson every time they met

[3ba11]

Just looking at some of the rankings released since the 75th anniversary team was announced, Reggie ranked 54th, 51st & 47th on the ones I found, and a list of some of the players he was ranked ahead of

Payton
Pierce
Nique
Allen
AD
McGrady
Dwight
Gervin
Drexler
Frazier

And this is for a guy who received an MVP vote two seasons in his career, finishing 13th & 16th, and never made an All-NBA 2nd Team.


Do you think the media gets all their awards correct and perceives everyone correctly?

When you cite media awards instead of performance, you're taking the word of a group of friends at a random bar - that's what the media is - a group of people that discuss and agree on the right group think

There are MANY players that the media got wrong and Reggie is one of them

[SouBeachTalents]

Do you think the media gets all their awards correct and perceives everyone correctly?

When you cite media awards instead of performance, you're taking the word of a group of friends at a random bar - that's what the media is - a group of people that discuss and agree on the right group think
Who that I listed did Reggie perform better than?

[3ba11]

Who that I listed did Reggie perform better than?


It's widely known that Miller went head to head with Allen in 2000 playoffs.. Ray was 24, Reggie was 34... Ray averaged 22/7/3, compared to Miller's 24/3/3.. But in pivotal Game 5 to decide the series (1st round was only 5 games back then), Ray was 6-21 and scored 18 points.. Reggie was 15-25 and scored 41..

Not only did old man Reggie destroy Allen heads-up, but he has FAR more great playoff performances - it's not even close - and he consistently took teams much further in the playoffs:

From 1990 to 2001, Miller played with three players who were selected to a combined three all-star games.. Miller is 6-6 in playoff series without a single all-star teammate and has made three conference finals under those circumstances.

Otoh, from 2000 to 2011, Allen played with five players who were selected to a combined thirteen all-star games.. Ray Allen has never made a playoff appearance in his career without at least one all-star teammate (while Miller won 6 of 6 playoff series without a single all-star teammate).

[plowking]

Reggie has narrative on his side. Ultimately, was he even better than a guy like Mitch Richmond that hardly ever gets mentioned?

Reggie really shouldn't ever be brought up up in top 75 or top 100 player rankings. He was a guy that had a notable personality in the league, and seemed to be involved in a lot of the talk at the time.

[Phoenix]

Reggie has narrative on his side. Ultimately, was he even better than a guy like Mitch Richmond that hardly ever gets mentioned?

Reggie really shouldn't ever be brought up up in top 75 or top 100 player rankings. He was a guy that had a notable personality in the league, and seemed to be involved in a lot of the talk at the time.

As I said a few pages ago, playing at the exact same time period ( at the same age, so not a case of their peaks/primes not being aligned), Mitch Richmond made five all-NBAs ( three 2nd teams) to Reggie's three 3rd teams and as you correctly observed, he's not even a talking point.

[plowking]

As I said a few pages ago, playing at the exact same time period ( at the same age, so not a case of their peaks/primes not being aligned), Mitch Richmond made five all-NBAs ( three 2nd teams) to Reggie's three 3rd teams and as you correctly observed, he's not even a talking point.

Sprewell, Richmond, Mullin, etc.

Are you taking Reggie over Ron Harper from 87-94? Considering the fact Harper was DPOY level on one side of the ball and good to great on offense?

Reggie Miller is the most overrated player in NBA history. Narrative and a strong media presence has helped him more than any other player.

Magic Johnson somehow became a better player than Bird over time despite never being the case when they played - but the whole "more rings" argument took over and that is all we used as a metric to judge players by.

Trying to think of others... but can't atm.

[3ba11]

As I said a few pages ago, playing at the exact same time period ( at the same age, so not a case of their peaks/primes not being aligned), Mitch Richmond made five all-NBAs ( three 2nd teams) to Reggie's three 3rd teams and as you correctly observed, he's not even a talking point.


Threes weren't respected and people viewed Miller the same way I used to view Curry.

I was wrong about Curry and other 90's folks were wrong about Miller... Fortunately, Curry's impact revealed Miller's and he made top 75

[Shooter]

Sprewell, Richmond, Mullin, etc.

Are you taking Reggie over Ron Harper from 87-94? Considering the fact Harper was DPOY level on one side of the ball and good to great on offense?

Reggie Miller is the most overrated player in NBA history. Narrative and a strong media presence has helped him more than any other player.

Magic Johnson somehow became a better player than Bird over time despite never being the case when they played - but the whole "more rings" argument took over and that is all we used as a metric to judge players by.

Trying to think of others... but can't atm.

1,000%

[Johnny32]

Sprewell, Richmond, Mullin, etc.

Are you taking Reggie over Ron Harper from 87-94? Considering the fact Harper was DPOY level on one side of the ball and good to great on offense?

Reggie Miller is the most overrated player in NBA history. Narrative and a strong media presence has helped him more than any other player.

Magic Johnson somehow became a better player than Bird over time despite never being the case when they played - but the whole "more rings" argument took over and that is all we used as a metric to judge players by.

Trying to think of others... but can't atm.

lol harper was never considered a good defender until he became a role player.

[La Frescobaldi]

As individual talents, I don't think Scottie Pippen was that much better of a player than Reggie Miller. Pippen played under the perfect conditions during his Bulls tenure sort of how Tim Duncan played under the perfect conditions in his.

If you replaced Pippen for Reggie Miller on those Pacers teams in the 90s, I doubt the Pacers would have been as successful. (Although Pacers never won a championship they were usually a top 6 team in the NBA, or 3rd best in the East).

So the question is...is Pippen REALLY better than Reggie Miller?

Somebody else on here suggested replace Dumars with Miller for the ring Pistons teams which is nearly as futile an idea as this trade. Why not say Miller for Pippen on Bulls? That also will fail.

To make these ideas work you have to go get the very top of all top level man.
James or Bird or Havlicek are guys that could do all those roles but you’re not getting their level with either pippen or miller. Pippen gets far closer than Miller though because he can do everything except straight up shoot the ball.

[TAZORAC]

Pip is a hard one to evaluate. We only have a little more than 1 season and a half to go by in his prime without mj. He was very good during this time but at the end of the day pip wasn't enough of a scoring threat to consistently be a contender. Reggie on the otherhand was alot like steph in that he drew so much defense attention because of his shooting that his impact offensively reach further than his stats. He was also much tougher mentally. This is the reason if i had to choose i'd go with reggie but you can't go wrong either way.

Pippen played like shyt with the ROCKETS.

[Shooter]

Reggie Miller has zero:
•All NBA 1st team
•All NBA 2nd team
•All defensive 1st
•All defensive 2nd
•Top 3 MVP finishes
•Top 5 MVP finishes
•Championships
•Seasons above 25 ppg

Not a typo.
Zero. Zilch. Nada. None. Not a one.

He is LITERALLY the most overrated player of all-time.

It's over

[kawhileonard2]

Reggie was definitely better led team to finals as the man with no player on his squad who won league or finals mvp.

[TheGoatest]

Reggie was definitely better led team to finals as the man with no player on his squad who won league or finals mvp.

Funny how finals appearances suddenly matter now, huh? :oldlol:
And nevermind the fact that Reggie lost in 6 to the exact same team The Great Scott Pippen lost to in 7 in those finals. :roll:

If you want to look how overrated Reggie Miller was and how his entire legacy is rearview mirror hype generated by a handful of big shots, then look no further than how good Reggie was seen during the 3 seasons with the worst guard selections on an All-NBA 1st team of all time during the crap guard 90s:

1992-93 Mark Price (18.2 ppg on .484, 2.7 rpg, 8.0 apg, 1.2 spg, 0.1 bpg)
1993-94 Latrell Sprewell (21.0 ppg on .433, 4.9 rpg, 4.7 apg, 2.2 spg, 0.9 bpg)
1996-97 Tim Hardaway (20.3 ppg on .415, 3.4 rpg, 8.6 apg, 1.9 spg, 0.1 bpg)

As mentioned, these guards made the All-NBA 1st teams with these weak stat lines. Reggie Miller played 82, 79 and 81 games in these 3 seasons. Yet not only did he not take the second spot on the All-NBA 1st team, not only did he not make the All-NBA 2nd team, but he even failed to make the All-NBA 3rd team. That's how "good" Reggie Miller was seen in his playing days.

[Baller789]

Funny how finals appearances suddenly matter now, huh? :oldlol:
And nevermind the fact that Reggie lost in 6 to the exact same team The Great Scott Pippen lost to in 7 in those finals. :roll:

If you want to look how overrated Reggie Miller was and how his entire legacy is rearview mirror hype generated by a handful of big shots, then look no further than how good Reggie was seen during the 3 seasons with the worst guard selections on an All-NBA 1st team of all time during the crap guard 90s:

1992-93 Mark Price (18.2 ppg on .484, 2.7 rpg, 8.0 apg, 1.2 spg, 0.1 bpg)
1993-94 Latrell Sprewell (21.0 ppg on .433, 4.9 rpg, 4.7 apg, 2.2 spg, 0.9 bpg)
1996-97 Tim Hardaway (20.3 ppg on .415, 3.4 rpg, 8.6 apg, 1.9 spg, 0.1 bpg)

As mentioned, these guards made the All-NBA 1st teams with these weak stat lines. Reggie Miller played 82, 79 and 81 games in these 3 seasons. Yet not only did he not take the second spot on the All-NBA 1st team, not only did he not make the All-NBA 2nd team, but he even failed to make the All-NBA 3rd team. That's how "good" Reggie Miller was seen in his playing days.

Cool.

Now adjust the 90's guard stats for pace.

[8Ball]

Funny how finals appearances suddenly matter now, huh? :oldlol:
And nevermind the fact that Reggie lost in 6 to the exact same team The Great Scott Pippen lost to in 7 in those finals. :roll:

If you want to look how overrated Reggie Miller was and how his entire legacy is rearview mirror hype generated by a handful of big shots, then look no further than how good Reggie was seen during the 3 seasons with the worst guard selections on an All-NBA 1st team of all time during the crap guard 90s:

1992-93 Mark Price (18.2 ppg on .484, 2.7 rpg, 8.0 apg, 1.2 spg, 0.1 bpg)
1993-94 Latrell Sprewell (21.0 ppg on .433, 4.9 rpg, 4.7 apg, 2.2 spg, 0.9 bpg)
1996-97 Tim Hardaway (20.3 ppg on .415, 3.4 rpg, 8.6 apg, 1.9 spg, 0.1 bpg)

As mentioned, these guards made the All-NBA 1st teams with these weak stat lines. Reggie Miller played 82, 79 and 81 games in these 3 seasons. Yet not only did he not take the second spot on the All-NBA 1st team, not only did he not make the All-NBA 2nd team, but he even failed to make the All-NBA 3rd team. That's how "good" Reggie Miller was seen in his playing days.

He is slightly worse than Klay Thomson. That's all.

[Shooter]

Reggie was definitely better led team to finals as the man with no player on his squad who won league or finals mvp.

Wow someone did that one time? What if I told you someone did that ten times?

[TAZORAC]

Because Dumars was playing on a title contender and had the opportunity to showcase his talent on the big stage. Put Dumars on the Pacers & Reggie on the Pistons and it's Reggie making the All-NBA/All-Star teams. It's that simple.

Reggie didn't get picked to an All-NBA team and had only made 1 All-Star in his prime before going off on the Knicks in the ECF. He needed to be on a bigger stage to get the recognition from the fans/media/coaches. Do you think they had the advanced metrics back then to see how much of an impact he really had? His team wasn't good but his production was the same, it's not like he finally became a better player and then "deserved" those accolades. He did the same thing for 4 straight years prior to that in the RS and didn't get awarded for it.

You can look at the advanced metrics year-by-year and see that he's top 10-20 in most of them, ahead of Pippen himself in some years as well.

He was good enough as a player but got overlooked because of the teams he played on, thus he was actually underrated for his era. End of argument.

The Pistons could have used a player like Reggie Miller back then