The Bucks cast = 90's Bulls, aka 1 elite scorer/go-to player, so carry-job required

[3ba11]

Jrue will get about 17-20 ppg with woat efficiency (https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg), but otherwise Giannis will need to be Jordan to win... :confusedshrug:

Specifically, he will need to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load for playoffs and Finals of title run).

[ShawkFactory]

Yea that might have flown when there was like 1 game in a series where either team scored 90.

[red1]

reminder - this is what OP looks like:

https://farm3.static.flickr.com/2051/2265382098_8bfe3866ed_o.jpg
https://static.flickr.com/6/102645224_91633c56c1.jpg

[NBAGOAT]

Pippen was a top 5-10 player. As good as jrue is, he’s likely not even top 20. If you think Jordan puts up 40 today, then obviously 17-20ppg right now isn’t 17-20ppg in the 90s

[3ba11]

Pippen was a top 5-10 player. As good as jrue is, he’s likely not even top 20. If you think Jordan puts up 40 today, then obviously 17-20ppg right now isn’t 17-20ppg in the 90s


Anyone could've gotten 19/6/5 on weak efficiency in the triangle alongside MJ - that isn't top 5-10 performance in the league..

Unfortunately, Pippen's Iggy-caliber was inflated to top 30 all-time by the winning spotlight and propped up by dynasty chemistry (system player) - otherwise, he was a 14 ppg dunker that couldn't score (89' and 99')

Pippen is the only 90's sidekick that was more of an athlete/transition player and not a go-to player capable of elite domination.. Only Pippen failed to get elite ppg, rpg or apg in any series.

[97 bulls]

Anyone could've gotten 19/6/5 on weak efficiency in the triangle alongside MJ - that isn't top 5-10 performance in the league..

Unfortunately, Pippen's Iggy-caliber was inflated to top 30 all-time by the winning spotlight and propped up by dynasty chemistry (system player) - otherwise, he was a 14 ppg dunker that couldn't score (89' and 99')

Pippen is the only 90's sidekick that was more of an athlete/transition player and not a go-to player capable of elite domination.. Only Pippen failed to get elite ppg, rpg or apg in any series.

The fact is the Bulls were a 60 win caliber team without MJ, but with Pippen leading the helm. Basketball is a team sport. It's much easier to score a hunch of point efficiently when you have guys around you that can also impact the game a a high level.

[Phoenix]

Conflicting messages from OP. Is Giannis a 'Pippen level bum', or capable of 'going Jordan mode' in order to win?:confusedshrug:

[SouBeachTalents]

The fact is the Bulls were a 60 win caliber team without MJ, but with Pippen leading the helm. Basketball is a team sport. It's much easier to score a hunch of point efficiently when you have guys around you that can also impact the game a a high level.
And he's been told ad nauseam that Pippen outscored the opposing teams 2nd option in the vast majority of the Bulls series during their title years, so it clearly doesn't matter how many times the facts refute his bullshit talking points, he'll keep repeating them endlessly literally tens of thousands of times :lol

[3ba11]

The fact is the Bulls were a 60 win caliber team without MJ, but with Pippen leading the helm. Basketball is a team sport. It's much easier to score a hunch of point efficiently when you have guys around you that can also impact the game a a high level.


The fact that they won 55 games with a non-elite scorer at 1st option and rebounder at 2nd option confirms that they won via brand of ball and not talent.. aka 3-peat chemistry.

After the honeymoon period of no expectations and plausible deniability of being defending champs ended in the 94' Playoffs, the REAL bulls without MJ were lottery in 95' before MJ returned to restore 3-peat caliber.. 1st options are supposed to build a team every year, but Pippen destroyed a 3-peat dynasty to lottery in 18 months.

Ultimately, Pippen's true shooting was below league-average for the playoffs every year except 89-91' so only 1 year when they won... aka MJ won 6 chips with a non-go-to system player sidekick that never achieved peak Horry-level in 6 Finals (0/6 in reaching Horry's gamescore from the 95' Finals).

[NBAGOAT]

Anyone could've gotten 19/6/5 on weak efficiency in the triangle alongside MJ - that isn't top 5-10 performance in the league..

Unfortunately, Pippen's Iggy-caliber was inflated to top 30 all-time by the winning spotlight and propped up by dynasty chemistry (system player) - otherwise, he was a 14 ppg dunker that couldn't score (89' and 99')

Pippen is the only 90's sidekick that was more of an athlete/transition player and not a go-to player capable of elite domination.. Only Pippen failed to get elite ppg, rpg or apg in any series.

With pippens defense, yes he was top 5-10 according to everyone in the media and stats and no he’s not the only one who wasn’t a “go to player”. When has Shawn kemp or John Stockton or terry porter or whoever Hakeem or David Robinson had as a sidekick shown they could be the go to guy on a good team. Apologies to Mitch Richmond but being the go to guy on a bad offense and a 30 win team just doesn’t mean as much and one reason I have reggie over him

[Phoenix]

The fact that they won 55 games with a non-elite scorer at 1st option and rebounder at 2nd option confirms that they won via brand of ball and not talent.. aka 3-peat chemistry.

After the honeymoon period of no expectations and plausible deniability of being defending champs ended in the 94' Playoffs, the REAL bulls without MJ were lottery in 95' before MJ returned to restore 3-peat caliber.. 1st options are supposed to build a team every year, but Pippen destroyed a 3-peat dynasty to lottery in 18 months.

Ultimately, Pippen's true shooting was below league-average for the playoffs every year except 89-91' so only 1 year when they won... aka MJ won 6 chips with a non-go-to system player sidekick that never achieved peak Horry-level in 6 Finals (0/6 in reaching Horry's gamescore from the 95' Finals).

Horace Grant wasn't on the 95 team, the same Grant that went 18/11 against Chicago in the ECSFs. No, we don't need you to regurgitate that Toni Kukoc historically is better than Grant, he was 12/7 in the same series. Yes, this topic came up last week. No, those facts haven't changed in a week and yes, you're still wrong.

[SouBeachTalents]

Horace Grant wasn't on the 95 team, the same Grant that went 18/11 against Chicago in the ECSFs. No, we don't need you to regurgitate that Toni Kukoc historically is better than Grant, he was 12/7 in the same series. Yes, this topic came up last week. No, those facts haven't changed in a week and yes, you're still wrong.
No, just Curry's & Giannis' all time status did.

[Phoenix]

No, just Curry's & Giannis' all time status did.

:oldlol:

[3ba11]

.
Regular Season

Hornacek (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html)'.... 17.7 PER.. 2.9 bpm.. 0.153 ws/48.. 42.1 vorp on 33,964 min.. 15/3/5 on 58.2 ts
Klay (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html)............. 16.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.110 ws/48.. 14.4 vorp on 20,380 min.. 19/3/2 on 57.5 ts


Playoffs

Hornacek (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html)'.... 16.5 PER.. 3.1 bpm.. 0.145 ws/48.. 14.1 vorp on 4766 min.. 15/4/4 on 57.5 ts
Klay (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html)............. 14.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.091 ws/48.... 3.1 vorp on 4570 min.. 19/3/2 on 56.0 ts


CONCLUSION: winning sidekicks like Klay and Pippen are among the most overrated players ever because their Iggy or Hornacek performance is inflated by the winning spotlight into top 50 all-time... It's preposterous.



1997 Playoffs Clutch Points (last 5 within 5)

https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-20-2022/ZNXS7G.gif


1997 Finals Clutch Points (last 5 within 5)

https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-20-2022/j3_9OV.gif

[3ba11]

With pippens defense, yes he was top 5-10 according to everyone in the media and stats and no he’s not the only one who wasn’t a “go to player”. When has Shawn kemp or John Stockton or terry porter or whoever Hakeem or David Robinson had as a sidekick shown they could be the go to guy on a good team. Apologies to Mitch Richmond but being the go to guy on a bad offense and a 30 win team just doesn’t mean as much and one reason I have reggie over him


Everyone in history needed juggernaut scoring help and all-time elite scorers at sidekick to win multiple chips except MJ - so it's impressive that MJ won without the crazy scoring help that everyone else needed... Only MJ could win with a bunch of hustle players, yet you're acting like this was a negative.

And winning sidekicks like Klay and Pippen are among the most overrated players ever because their Iggy or Hornacek (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?504115-The-Bucks-cast-90-s-Bulls-aka-1-elite-scorer-go-to-player-so-carry-job-required&p=14588568&viewfull=1#post14588568) performance is inflated by the winning spotlight into top 50 all-time... It's preposterous.

Finally, you asked when Kemp, Porter, KJ, Worthy or Stockton led their team as 1st option???... Answer: they all did.... Porter was literally Damian Lillard in the 90' and 92' Finals runs, including 26/6/8 on 52% (53% threes on 6 attempts) in the 92' WCF - so the worst sidekick that Jordan ever faced (Porter) had better runs and was far more dominant than Pippen ever was..

Similarly, Kemp nearly won FMVP from MJ in the 96' Finals and this was after dominating Malone in the WCF with 20/11 on 69% (goat-caliber efficiency)... Meanwhile, Stockton is a top 3 all-time playmaker and floor general that averaged 21/11 and hit the walk-off in Barkley's face to carry the Jazz in the 97' WCF.. He was also Jordan in the clutch (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?504115-The-Bucks-cast-90-s-Bulls-aka-1-elite-scorer-go-to-player-so-carry-job-required&p=14588568&viewfull=1#post14588568).

So every 90's sidekick was infact a 1b that could dominate except Pippen

[NBAGOAT]

.
Regular Season

Hornacek (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html)'.... 17.7 PER.. 2.9 bpm.. 0.153 ws/48.. 42.1 vorp on 33,964 min.. 15/3/5 on 58.2 ts
Klay (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html)............. 16.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.110 ws/48.. 14.4 vorp on 20,380 min.. 19/3/2 on 57.5 ts


Playoffs

Hornacek (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html)'.... 16.5 PER.. 3.1 bpm.. 0.145 ws/48.. 14.1 vorp on 4766 min.. 15/4/4 on 57.5 ts
Klay (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html)............. 14.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.091 ws/48.... 3.1 vorp on 4570 min.. 19/3/2 on 56.0 ts


CONCLUSION: winning sidekicks like Klay and Pippen are among the most overrated players ever because their Iggy or Hornacek performance is inflated by the winning spotlight into top 50 all-time... It's preposterous.



1997 Playoffs Clutch Points (last 5 within 5)

https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-20-2022/ZNXS7G.gif


1997 Finals Clutch Points (last 5 within 5)

https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-20-2022/j3_9OV.gif

klay's not a sidekick he's the 3rd or 4th best player even at times. No box score stat will tell you the extent klay is better than hornacek on defense either.

yea hornacek was underrated with utah 15/4 61ts% 4BPM guy during regular season with bit worse averages in the playoffs. Kukoc was a 13/4 52ts% 3.5BPM guy during the regular season and that was the Bulls' 4th best player :lol

[NBAGOAT]

Everyone in history needed juggernaut scoring help and all-time elite scorers at sidekick to win multiple chips except MJ - so it's impressive that MJ won without the crazy scoring help that everyone else needed... Only MJ could win with a bunch of hustle players, yet you're acting like this was a negative.

And winning sidekicks like Klay and Pippen are among the most overrated players ever because their Iggy or Hornacek (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?504115-The-Bucks-cast-90-s-Bulls-aka-1-elite-scorer-go-to-player-so-carry-job-required&p=14588568&viewfull=1#post14588568) performance is inflated by the winning spotlight into top 50 all-time... It's preposterous.

Finally, you asked when Kemp, Porter, KJ, Worthy or Stockton led their team as 1st option???... Answer: they all did.... Porter was literally Damian Lillard in the 90' and 92' Finals runs, including 26/6/8 on 52% (53% threes on 6 attempts) in the 92' WCF - so the worst sidekick that Jordan ever faced (Porter) had better runs and was far more dominant than Pippen ever was..

Similarly, Kemp nearly won FMVP from MJ in the 96' Finals and this was after dominating Malone in the WCF with 20/11 on 69% (goat-caliber efficiency)... Meanwhile, Stockton is a top 3 all-time playmaker and floor general that averaged 21/11 and hit the walk-off in Barkley's face to carry the Jazz in the 97' WCF.. He was also Jordan in the clutch (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?504115-The-Bucks-cast-90-s-Bulls-aka-1-elite-scorer-go-to-player-so-carry-job-required&p=14588568&viewfull=1#post14588568).

So every 90's sidekick was infact a 1b that could dominate except Pippen

I'm going follow your criteria and by yours 20ppg isnt impressive for a 1st option. pippen has multiple whole playoff runs where he put up 20/9/6 on above average efficiency not to mention the defense.

You can mention kemps efficiency but it's not actually efficient as it seems when he cant pass the ball at all yet turned it over 24 times in a 7 game series. That means he's just turning it over when attempting to score, not off much playmaking. Also obvious from watching him play.

Stockton isnt a top 3 playmaker imo but besides the point. 21/11 in one series is great fair. However, he's a career 13.5/10 57ts% guy in the playoffs, absolutely not a go to guy. Multiple playoff runs in his prime where he puts up under 15ppg under 55ts%. Ofc it's only with him when you suddenly care about playmaking lol.

Porter had a great series admittedly. What happened when he went up against the Bulls? he put up only 16/5 on 57ts% completely outplayed by pippen. he has good playoff stats in his prime 20/7 62ts% from 90-92 but his prime is too short to be an all time great. Still keep in mind I did not ask when were those guys a 1st option in a series. I asked when have they shown they could be the go to guy on a good team, being consistently that good is a must. even 20/7 elite efficiency isnt good enough to be the your no1 option on a good team with a few exceptions

[SpaceJam]

Pippen was a top 5-10 player. As good as jrue is, he’s likely not even top 20. If you think Jordan puts up 40 today, then obviously 17-20ppg right now isn’t 17-20ppg in the 90s

That’s the thing these fanboys forget. “This era easier to score, Jordan scoring 40, 90s way tougher” okay so what’s Scotties 21/8/5 in this era

[Jasper]

not even sure how to reply to this thread.

[jlip]

Yep. They are just like the '90s Bulls seeing that they were so loaded last year that they were able to win and advance in the playoffs without their best player.

[tpols]

Pippen was a top 5-10 player. As good as jrue is, he’s likely not even top 20. If you think Jordan puts up 40 today, then obviously 17-20ppg right now isn’t 17-20ppg in the 90s

Bullshit. Shaq was around number 5 are you saying pippen = shaq?

:roll:

This is why we be hating. The public perception is VASTLY skewed. Here and in most cases unfortunately.

[NBAGOAT]

Bullshit. Shaq was around number 5 are you saying pippen = shaq?

:roll:

This is why we be hating. The public perception is VASTLY skewed. Here and in most cases unfortunately.

thats why i said 5-10 depending around year. shaq wasnt a factor during 1st 3peat

[kawhileonard2]

Bucks, 2019 Raptors and 90's Bulls were 1 superstar teams and a bunch of good role players.

[ShawkFactory]

Bullshit. Shaq was around number 5 are you saying pippen = shaq?

:roll:

This is why we be hating. The public perception is VASTLY skewed. Here and in most cases unfortunately.

Stop.

[97 bulls]

Bullshit. Shaq was around number 5 are you saying pippen = shaq?

:roll:

This is why we be hating. The public perception is VASTLY skewed. Here and in most cases unfortunately.

Except that it's not skewed. YOU just don't agree with it. Like I said in another thread, many respected players FROM THAT TIME are on record saying Pippen was top 3-5 or even the best player. So its not far fetced. Maybe you need to reassess your perspective.