Is it just me or is Kyrie Irving overrated?

[Walk on Water]

He had one good year and hit the shot in 16. He’s not the most skilled player, my ass. He’s not even the best scorer or shooter. Average passer and defender. Morant is better than him, faster and finishes better. Curry shoots better than Irving. Irving is just an undersized, under athletic guard who has handles and they aren’t even all that special.

Plus he’s an idiot. He didn’t get the vaccine. You’re supposed to be there for your team, dumb dumb. It’s not about you. You ain’t shit. We act like Irving is a super duper star. Where’s the scoring titles and MVP awards?

Most skilled player my ass. Most skilled at missing games and making excuses.

[Kawhi_Why_Not]

You have to put him next to a passer/playmaker

Similar to how you have to put Lowry next to a scorer

Someone like jokic if he played defense would be a good fit next to Irving.

Thats probably the biggest problem with Irving, his defense is atrocious

[Xiao Yao You]

He had one good year and hit the shot in 16. He’s not the most skilled player, my ass. He’s not even the best scorer or shooter. Average passer and defender. Morant is better than him, faster and finishes better. Curry shoots better than Irving. Irving is just an undersized, under athletic guard who has handles and they aren’t even all that special.

Plus he’s an idiot. He didn’t get the vaccine. You’re supposed to be there for your team, dumb dumb. It’s not about you. You ain’t shit. We act like Irving is a super duper star. Where’s the scoring titles and MVP awards?

Most skilled player my ass. Most skilled at missing games and making excuses.

you forgot the part about the earth being flat :cheers:

[John_Connor]

no he was on an all time great trajectory and just had physical and mental health derail his career. he had one of the greatest finals ever in 2016 and then lebron drove him away. then boston ran him out due to injuries and not wanting to share the ball. then the media turned on him. then BLM happened. then the capital riots. then kobe died. then covid. then the vaccine mess. then more injuries and media problems. then teammates sold him out again and now hes a shell of himself mentally and hes out of rhythm


i blame lebron for starting this snowball effect though. i remember the moment too. it was when he was the cover athlete and they still gave him a shit rating and lebron laughed or mocked him for it and called him a kid or something

[999Guy]

Oh of course

Kyrie opened multiple playoff runs refusing to pass while having amazing teammates, multiple times.

Thought he was Bill Russell against Giannis of all people in 2019. While just playing dumb offense.

And that’s just post 2015.

Pre 2015 his defense was Trae level and he couldn’t beat defenses at a true all star level.

He has never had a good defensive season despite starting off on fire as a help defender in 2019, he still fizzled out.

Lowest substance “star” in the league with Demar, Lavine, most KAT seasons etc.


BUT he was pretty much FELT, like truly respected and felt as good as say prime Chris Paul to fans literally up until now.

Like, fans FELT in their hearts, whether they knew it or not, he was as good as any point guard or even guard in the 2010’s outside Curry. And maybe even better than Curry “kUz 2016”

[kawhileonard2]

Underrated from 2014-2018.

[SouBeachTalents]

no he was on an all time great trajectory and just had physical and mental health derail his career. he had one of the greatest finals ever in 2016 and then lebron drove him away. then boston ran him out due to injuries and not wanting to share the ball. then the media turned on him. then BLM happened. then the capital riots. then kobe died. then covid. then the vaccine mess. then more injuries and media problems. then teammates sold him out again and now hes a shell of himself mentally and hes out of rhythm


i blame lebron for starting this snowball effect though. i remember the moment too. it was when he was the cover athlete and they still gave him a shit rating and lebron laughed or mocked him for it and called him a kid or something
Shocking :lol

The lengths you go to make excuses though is pretty impressive tbh.

[ShawkFactory]

He’s perfect at what he does but is overrated by some who think he’s an elite overall player.

He definitely needs someone to carry the load outside of just ISO scoring. But pairing him with a guy who can do everything else a high level is a wildly dynamic combo.

[999Guy]

He’s perfect at what he does but is overrated by some who think he’s an elite overall player.

He definitely needs someone to carry the load outside of just ISO scoring. But pairing him with a guy who can do everything else a high level is a wildly dynamic combo.

Perfect at what? He’s a small guard that refuses to pass or defend. He will **** your entire cohesiveness.

A bag of shit and a guy that does everything well will look good. :lol

If you had the traditional or even typical archetypes of every position outside PG with Kyrie as PG, you’re ****ed, EVEN if every position around him is good. 2018 and 2019 Boston proved that.

The guy is flashy chucker, albeit hella skilled, with no reliability not to be schemed out.

He’s literally an idiots idea of an ideal player.

[8Ball]

no he was on an all time great trajectory and just had physical and mental health derail his career. he had one of the greatest finals ever in 2016 and then lebron drove him away. then boston ran him out due to injuries and not wanting to share the ball. then the media turned on him. then BLM happened. then the capital riots. then kobe died. then covid. then the vaccine mess. then more injuries and media problems. then teammates sold him out again and now hes a shell of himself mentally and hes out of rhythm


i blame lebron for starting this snowball effect though. i remember the moment too. it was when he was the cover athlete and they still gave him a shit rating and lebron laughed or mocked him for it and called him a kid or something

You said you are top 1% in intellect but this qualifies as bottom 1% in stupidity.

[8Ball]

He had one good year and hit the shot in 16. He’s not the most skilled player, my ass. He’s not even the best scorer or shooter. Average passer and defender. Morant is better than him, faster and finishes better. Curry shoots better than Irving. Irving is just an undersized, under athletic guard who has handles and they aren’t even all that special.

Plus he’s an idiot. He didn’t get the vaccine. You’re supposed to be there for your team, dumb dumb. It’s not about you. You ain’t shit. We act like Irving is a super duper star. Where’s the scoring titles and MVP awards?

Most skilled player my ass. Most skilled at missing games and making excuses.

Kyrie Irving before and after LeBron has accomplished nothing with his teams.

[ShawkFactory]

Perfect at what? He’s a small guard that refuses to pass or defend. He will **** your entire cohesiveness.

A bag of shit and a guy that does everything well will look good. :lol

If you had the traditional or even typical archetypes of every position outside PG with Kyrie as PG, you’re ****ed, EVEN if every position around him is good. 2018 and 2019 Boston proved that.

The guy is flashy chucker, albeit hella skilled, with no reliability not to be schemed out.

He’s literally an idiots idea of an ideal player.

He’s perfect because his 1-on-1 abilities are insane. If a team is going to game plan for someone that isn’t him he’s going to eat more than anyone else could.

[nayte]

I don't know anymore. I was pretty high on Kyrie still am but disappointed with the last series

[John8204]

I think so...recency bias and disrespect to earlier PG's has inflated his value. He's a hall of famer but he's not top twenty for his position right now. He's cost more wins that I think any other PG

PG -
Tier 1 - Magic, Oscar, Stockton, Curry, CPIII, Frazier, Kidd, Tiny Archibald, Thomas, Cousy,
Tier 2 - Nash, Parker, Monroe, Lillard, Payton, Wilkens, Doncic, Westbrook, Moncrief, Rondo
Tier 3 - Irving, Price, Jackson, Lowry, Bing, Young, P. Hardaway, D. Johnson, Rose, Cheeks

[Manny98]

I think so...recency bias and disrespect to earlier PG's has inflated his value. He's a hall of famer but he's not top twenty for his position right now. He's cost more wins that I think any other PG

PG -
Tier 1 - Magic, Oscar, Stockton, Curry, CPIII, Frazier, Kidd, Tiny Archibald, Thomas, Cousy,
Tier 2 - Nash, Parker, Monroe, Lillard, Payton, Wilkens, Doncic, Westbrook, Moncrief, Rondo
Tier 3 - Irving, Price, Jackson, Lowry, Bing, Young, P. Hardaway, D. Johnson, Rose, Cheeks
He's not tier below Rondo,Lillard and Tony Parker :facepalm

[nayte]

:roll:
LeBron Stan's yo

[John8204]

He's not tier below Rondo,Lillard and Tony Parker :facepalm

Parker's made 17 playoff appearances...Kyrie has 6, Dame's numbers are better than Kyries, and Rondo's post season performances go up and down...while Kyrie has clearly declined.

If Kyrie quits and we are only judging him by his resume right now...he's not in the top twenty.

[999Guy]

He's not tier below Rondo,Lillard and Tony Parker :facepalm

It’s more Parker, Lillard and Rondo are absolutely not tier 2 PG’s all-time, what in the actual **** has he seen to believe that?

But that is his actual level. Those are good names.

Pre-ACL injury Rondo is better than Kyrie in the playoffs though. For being the exact opposite player. Smart passer and defender, bad but selective scorer. Some bizzarro Jason Kidd kind of shit.

[Manny98]

Parker's made 17 playoff appearances...Kyrie has 6, Dame's numbers are better than Kyries, and Rondo's post season performances go up and down...while Kyrie has clearly declined.

If Kyrie quits and we are only judging him by his resume right now...he's not in the top twenty.
Kyrie would also make the playoffs 17 times if he got to play with Tim Duncan his entire career :oldlol:

Kyrie is better than Parker and Rondo and slightly better than Lillard

[John_Connor]

You said you are top 1% in intellect but this qualifies as bottom 1% in stupidity.

and yet you can't argue any of it

[1987_Lakers]

and yet you can't argue any of it

You thought the Will Smith slap was fake. Nuff said.

[John8204]

Kyrie would also make the playoffs 17 times if he got to play with Tim Duncan his entire career :oldlol:

Kyrie is better than Parker and Rondo and slightly better than Lillard

You think Kyrie is going to make 17 seasons? Because he could very well be out of the league by 33, and Kyrie has had Lebron, Durant, Harden, Tatum, and Simmons, he's the PG it's his job to make the system work. What happens if the Celtics win and two teams you quit on ended up being champions. Because that is his legacy right now

[Real Men Wear Green]

For a variety of reasons he misses too many games. And some of those reasons are completely his fault. I actually would not be that mad at him for refusing to vaccinate but when he missed two weeks for his sister's birthday and didn't tell Nash what he was doing? That was ridiculous and should absolutely be held against him. Without doing the research I'm tempted to say he's missed half or over half of his team's playoff games over the last 5 seasons. That's injury and not his fault but it's a definite trend. Some also hate his defense...it isn't good overall but he can turn it on when he wants to and for a superstar shooter that's generally good enough. Phenomenal offensive player but unreliable. If I was running the Nets I would not give him a long term contract but if not the Nets someone will. And with Durant's influence behind him the Nets will most likely give him whatever he wants.

[8Ball]

and yet you can't argue any of it

I dont refute flat earth level comments. I let it float around.

[ArbitraryWater]

i definitely thought he was better than the shit he produced this playoffs


not sure anymore

[8Ball]

For a variety of reasons he misses too many games. And some of those reasons are completely his fault. I actually would not be that mad at him for refusing to vaccinate but when he missed two weeks for his sister's birthday and didn't tell Nash what he was doing? That was ridiculous and should absolutely be held against him. Without doing the research I'm tempted to say he's missed half or over half of his team's playoff games over the last 5 seasons. That's injury and not his fault but it's a definite trend. Some also hate his defense...it isn't good overall but he can turn it on when he wants to and for a superstar shooter that's generally good enough. Phenomenal offensive player but unreliable. If I was running the Nets I would not give him a long term contract but if not the Nets someone will. And with Durant's influence behind him the Nets will most likely give him whatever he wants.

Durant signed a long term extension until 2026. Durant doesn't have the leverage anymore to make demands. He will demand a trade?

I don't see Tsai backing up the truck and giving this guy a max after what Kyrie did during Covid.

I would offer Kyrie a 2 year deal only. 2 years 60M.

[WhiteKyrie]

i definitely thought he was better than the shit he produced this playoffs


not sure anymore
Durant was far worse?

[ImKobe]

Nope. The media and the fans have been consistently shitting on him since he left Cleveland. He's been a very efficient offensive player his entire career. His play hasn't suffered at all, it's the injuries & the off court stuff that are an issue with him. There's no doubt that he's one of the most gifted offensive players in league history.

[jayfan]

His talent is not overrated. But his team play is.


.

[WhiteKyrie]

His talent is not overrated. But his team play is.


.
Agree. But also, he has clearly at various point become totally mentally disengaged. He needs therapy. Was obvious in the 2019 playoffs vs Bucks. And then look at the engagement level after a supreme game 1 in this years playoffs. His hunger for basketball seems to come and go now a days.

[1987_Lakers]

His talent is not overrated. But his team play is.


.

This is how I feel as well.

[WhiteKyrie]

This is how I feel as well.

That’s how we all feel about LeBron.

His natural talent isn’t overrated. His impact on winning basketball is.

[TheGoatest]

His talent is not overrated. But his team play is.


.

Riiiiiiight.....

https://images4.imagebam.com/9a/f8/50/ME9UYJ4_o.jpg

https://images4.imagebam.com/38/35/7f/ME9UYK8_o.jpg

https://images4.imagebam.com/13/4b/5e/ME9UYL9_o.png

No overrating going on here, folks. Just a 100% objective analysis of Kyrie Irving's game. :oldlol:
Saying he's not overrated is as stupid as calling a made shot while the game is tied with 2 full shot clocks left in the game and then some as "the biggest shot in history". :roll:

[Real Men Wear Green]

Saying he's the most skilled isn't overstating his abilities. It's just that things like height length and athleticism are also important and in those areas Irving isn't special by NBA standards. But who finishes better that doesn't have explosive leaping or size to play above the rim? And who had a better handle? There are better shooters but he's still a great shooter.

[Mr. Woke]

He had one good year and hit the shot in 16. He’s not the most skilled player, my ass. He’s not even the best scorer or shooter. Average passer and defender. Morant is better than him, faster and finishes better. Curry shoots better than Irving. Irving is just an undersized, under athletic guard who has handles and they aren’t even all that special.

Plus he’s an idiot. He didn’t get the vaccine. You’re supposed to be there for your team, dumb dumb. It’s not about you. You ain’t shit. We act like Irving is a super duper star. Where’s the scoring titles and MVP awards?

Most skilled player my ass. Most skilled at missing games and making excuses.

He has had several All-Star and All-NBA caliber years.

He is only overrated if you believe that he is a top-flight superstar.

[bizil]

Kyrie ISN'T overrated in my opinion. The most skilled scoring PG ever, NBA champ, and 7 time All Star is hands down 1st ballot HOF shit. But NOBODY is arguing him as a top 10 GOAT PG. On the NBA 75 list, he was NEVER regarded as a top 3 snub from that list. Just think his moves off the court in terms of switching teams, the vaccine shit, etc. have gotten on a lot of people's nerves. If ANYTHING, Kyrie is starting to trend towards underrated. On a historical type of level. Dame Dolla with NO RINGS made the NBA 75 list over Kyrie. Not saying Dame DOESN'T deserve to be on the list. Just saying how can Kyrie be overrated when you look at shit like that.

[Shogon]

Saying he's the most skilled isn't overstating his abilities.

It really is.

There are more skills than just dribbling. Dribbling he is arguably the goat.

Shooting? Is Kyrie a top 20 shooter of all time?

Passing? Is Kyrie a top 20 passer of all time?

Scoring in general? Is Kyrie a top 20 scorer of all time?

Defense? lol. Yes, people will argue athleticism and determination, but skill is into the equation as well.

Let's assume he was healthy and played 82 games a year for his career, is he considered top 20 at any of those?

Add up any combination of these things and he is top 20 of all time?

I don't think so.

He is not definitely not even remotely close to approaching "top skilled player of all time" status.

He is in the discussion for goat dribbler, and that's it. He's also good at finishing underneath the rim, we know that... one of the best ever. But that doesn't really mean that much and it's something we started talking about specifically to try to verbally appreciate Kyrie's talent.

[PeroAntic]

https://images4.imagebam.com/9a/f8/50/ME9UYJ4_o.jpg

Umm... Derrick Rose?

[ImKobe]

It really is.

There are more skills than just dribbling. Dribbling he is arguably the goat.

Shooting? Is Kyrie a top 20 shooter of all time?

Passing? Is Kyrie a top 20 passer of all time?

Scoring in general? Is Kyrie a top 20 scorer of all time?

Defense? lol. Yes, people will argue athleticism and determination, but skill is into the equation as well.

Let's assume he was healthy and played 82 games a year for his career, is he considered top 20 at any of those?

Add up any combination of these things and he is top 20 of all time?

I don't think so.

He is not definitely not even remotely close to approaching "top skilled player of all time" status.

He is in the discussion for goat dribbler, and that's it. He's also good at finishing underneath the rim, we know that... one of the best ever. But that doesn't really mean that much and it's something we started talking about specifically to try to verbally appreciate Kyrie's talent.

Irving is a top 20 shooter/scorer all-time if you take FT, mid-range and 3 all into account. He's elite at all of those things. He might be the best ballhandler in NBA history as well. I don't think you can find me 20 players who have a combination of all of those skills offensively.

And if you look at how his game has evolved, he's 64.3% inside 3 ft, 48.2% from 3-10, 49.5% 10-16 ft, 49.3% on long 2s & 40.5% from three (7.0 3PA) & 89.9%FT and is averaging 25.5 ppg w/ 6.0 ast & 2.5 TO since leaving the Cavs.

How many players are there in NBA history who can average 25+ ppg and be that efficient from all around the court?

Off the top of my head is the list of players who have averaged 25+ ppg and been on Irving's level on all-around efficiency in the RS

Bird
Steph
Kawhi
KD
Dirk


Kobe and Jordan were great inside the arc & from the FT line, but lacked a consistent 3PT shot. Bran and Giannis are ATG finishers but lack a consistent jump shot & are streaky from the FT line.

Unless I'm missing someone, there's 5 other guys who fit the criteria. Jerry West might be on that tier as well but he played before the 3PT shot was a thing, but definitely had 3PT range and was a great all-around scorer. Chris Paul has the skillset, but only has two 20+ ppg seasons so he's always cherry-picked wide open looks while averaging 16-19 a game for the most part. Doncic could get to that level, but his 3PT & FT shot isn't consistent enough yet.

So if we're purely talking about Irving's all-around talent offensively, he's definitely very high up on the ATG list. Someone correct me if I missed a player, but there's no way you're getting close to 20 guys in overall scoring talent at 25+ ppg volume.

[Real Men Wear Green]

It really is.

There are more skills than just dribbling. Dribbling he is arguably the goat.

Shooting? Is Kyrie a top 20 shooter of all time?

Passing? Is Kyrie a top 20 passer of all time?

Scoring in general? Is Kyrie a top 20 scorer of all time?

Defense? lol. Yes, people will argue athleticism and determination, but skill is into the equation as well.

Let's assume he was healthy and played 82 games a year for his career, is he considered top 20 at any of those?

Add up any combination of these things and he is top 20 of all time?

I don't think so.

He is not definitely not even remotely close to approaching "top skilled player of all time" status.

He is in the discussion for goat dribbler, and that's it. He's also good at finishing underneath the rim, we know that... one of the best ever. But that doesn't really mean that much and it's something we started talking about specifically to try to verbally appreciate Kyrie's talent.

Passing skill is not so easy to quantify. Irving ha the coordination and skill to throw the ball wherever he wants to however he wants to. His assist numbers are pedestrian because he's a shoot first scorer in the body of a point guard. But the actual skills involved are not beyond him. Similar could be said about defense. He is an all time great dribbler and finisher below the rum. A great shooter even though there are definitely better shooters. In terms of skills and basketball those are really the main things.

[j3lademaster]

It really is.

There are more skills than just dribbling. Dribbling he is arguably the goat.

Shooting? Is Kyrie a top 20 shooter of all time?

Passing? Is Kyrie a top 20 passer of all time?

Scoring in general? Is Kyrie a top 20 scorer of all time?

Defense? lol. Yes, people will argue athleticism and determination, but skill is into the equation as well.

Let's assume he was healthy and played 82 games a year for his career, is he considered top 20 at any of those?

Add up any combination of these things and he is top 20 of all time?

I don't think so.

He is not definitely not even remotely close to approaching "top skilled player of all time" status.

He is in the discussion for goat dribbler, and that's it. He's also good at finishing underneath the rim, we know that... one of the best ever. But that doesn't really mean that much and it's something we started talking about specifically to try to verbally appreciate Kyrie's talent.good post. This is exactly why I have Curry as the most skilled ever. Curry is closer to Kyrie as a ballhandler than Kyrie is to him as a shooter/ offball movement. Both have quick hands on defense. Obviously Kyrie showed he was mentally stronger in the 16 finals.

The other guy I have up there is Kobe.

[j3lademaster]

Riiiiiiight.....

https://images4.imagebam.com/9a/f8/50/ME9UYJ4_o.jpg

https://images4.imagebam.com/38/35/7f/ME9UYK8_o.jpg

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No overrating going on here, folks. Just a 100% objective analysis of Kyrie Irving's game. :oldlol:
Saying he's not overrated is as stupid as calling a made shot while the game is tied with 2 full shot clocks left in the game and then some as "the biggest shot in history". :roll:

Kellerman must mean for 6’3 and under, because the best under the basket scorer has to be Shaq

[Real Men Wear Green]

Shaq didn't play above the rim? I think you are misunderstanding quite a bit here.

[Shogon]

Shaq didn't play above the rim? I think you are misunderstanding quite a bit here.

:roll:

On a multitude of levels tbh.

[j3lademaster]

Shaq didn't play above the rim? I think you are misunderstanding quite a bit here.i guess I am here. I’ve always interpretted ‘below the rim’ and ‘under the basket’ as 2 different terms. Like when Shaq moved Chris Dudley under the basket and dunked on him. When you have the balled under the basket what’s your propensity to score? Announcers literally used to say “when this guy catches the ball under the basket it’s over”.

[tpols]

I mean... Kyrie is the best scoring point guard of all time. One of the most elite paint finisher guards ever, money midrange, and sniper 3pt range. There s never been a point guard who could be that elite across all levels of scoring.

Isiah Thomas and Kevin Johnson and Tony Parker had the paint scoring, but not the shooting. Curry and Nash had the shooting but not the paint scoring. Kyrie put it all together.

His main issue is simply intangibles ~ injury, apathy, sort of a loner type I think. He's not a great leader. Individually he is a basketball work of art.

[tpols]

I still remember shogun was in awe of what kyrie did in the play in games and Game 1 of the playoffs. With no food or water nonetheless. :lol

Durant is the one who shit the bed. Kyrie dominated Game 1 on the road and they lost by a hair because KD had a terrible performance.

Its a totally different series if Nets have that Game 1 right off the bat snatching HCA. But KD shit the bed harder than he ever has.

[SouBeachTalents]

I still remember shogun was in awe of what kyrie did in the play in games and Game 1 of the playoffs. With no food or water nonetheless. :lol

Durant is the one who shit the bed. Kyrie dominated Game 1 on the road and they lost by a hair because KD had a terrible performance.

Its a totally different series if Nets have that Game 1 right off the bat snatching HCA. But KD shit the bed harder than he ever has.
Kyrie was still garbage the rest of the series, and has frankly been mediocre in the playoffs since leaving Cleveland.

[Real Men Wear Green]

I mean... Kyrie is the best scoring point guard of all time. One of the most elite paint finisher guards ever, money midrange, and sniper 3pt range. There s never been a point guard who could be that elite across all levels of scoring.

Isiah Thomas and Kevin Johnson and Tony Parker had the paint scoring, but not the shooting. Curry and Nash had the shooting but not the paint scoring. Kyrie put it all together.

His main issue is simply intangibles ~ injury, apathy, sort of a loner type I think. He's not a great leader. Individually he is a basketball work of art.

He's nowhere near as good as Curry at scoring. He is better at finishing than Curry but curry's shooting ability is such that it doesn't matter. Curry is an overwhelming offensive weapon. Irving had never been the franchise player for a great team. Curry was and is and its because of his ability to score.

[tpols]

Kyrie was still garbage the rest of the series, and has frankly been mediocre in the playoffs since leaving Cleveland.

You can't comprehend momentum bro. That game 1 was a back breaking loss. Kyrie was by far the best player and every body was like "what the ****?" seeing that 2nd half take over. And dagger 3 under a minute left. (sound familiar?) But KD totally shot the bed. Its an absolute minimum 6-7 game series if the Nets win that Game 1. The Celtics were winning by very slim margins. These weren't blow outs.

[tpols]

He's nowhere near as good as Curry at scoring. He is better at finishing than Curry but curry's shooting ability is such that it doesn't matter. Curry is an overwhelming offensive weapon. Irving had never been the franchise player for a great team. Curry was and is and its because of his ability to score.

Curry is a better offensive weapon because he's a more willing passer, better off ball, and a tremendous leader. Individually scoring on all 3 levels? We saw Irving eviscerate Curry H2H in his UMVP season. He's easily the more well rounded scorer. Sniped Curry from 3 but had the bag to finish inside the arc. We've already seen it live on TV.

[Real Men Wear Green]

You can't comprehend momentum bro. That game 1 was a back breaking loss. Kyrie was by far the best player and every body was like "what the ****?" seeing that 2nd half take over. And dagger 3 under a minute left. (sound familiar?) But KD totally shot the bed. Its an absolute minimum 6-7 game series if the Nets win that Game 1. The Celtics were winning by very slim margins. These weren't blow outs.

Irving had his share of poor games. Celtic defense had something to do with that but Irving was a distant second concern for that defense. You can't play one great game in four losses and escape blame for the one night you had it going.

[Real Men Wear Green]

You can't comprehend momentum bro. That game 1 was a back breaking loss. Kyrie was by far the best player and every body was like "what the ****?" seeing that 2nd half take over. And dagger 3 under a minute left. (sound familiar?) But KD totally shot the bed. Its an absolute minimum 6-7 game series if the Nets win that Game 1. The Celtics were winning by very slim margins. These weren't blow outs.

Individual head to head means nothing in this discussion. Neither guy is a good defender so scoring on each other is irrelevant to a discussion of who is a better scorer. Irving is more ball dominant but that is largely about their skill sets. Curry want even viewers as a certain point guard because coming out of college he was just known for shooting. He is perfectly fine of the ball and doesn't need much time or space to get a shot of that will most likely go in. Irving's game on the other hand is based on his ball handling. That's what his game is based on.

[SouBeachTalents]

You can't comprehend momentum bro. That game 1 was a back breaking loss. Kyrie was by far the best player and every body was like "what the ****?" seeing that 2nd half take over. And dagger 3 under a minute left. (sound familiar?) But KD totally shot the bed. Its an absolute minimum 6-7 game series if the Nets win that Game 1. The Celtics were winning by very slim margins. These weren't blow outs.
Momentum doesn't excuse averaging 15 ppg on 48%TS over the rest of the series, a series that as you said was competitive every game. KD was terrible and should get the brunt of the blame being the teams best player and an ATG, but after Game 1 Kyrie was probably even worse.

[tpols]

Irving had his share of poor games. Celtic defense had something to do with that but Irving was a distant second concern for that defense. You can't play one great game in four losses and escape blame for the one night you had it going.

Kyrie had the DPOY Marcus smart guarding him lmao. What are you talking about?

[Real Men Wear Green]

Kyrie had the DPOY Marcus smart guarding him lmao. What are you talking about?

You may not have watched the game and I have no faith in your ability to analyze anything but anyone that watched the game saw that Durant was facing doubles the whole series. For a wing dealing with Tatum plus help is extremely difficult. A guy is not the focus of the opposing defense just because he drew the best defense. Durant is possibly 8 inches taller than Smart of course Smart won't be primary defender with such a severe mismatch.

[tpols]

You may not have watched the game and I have no faith in your ability to analyze anything but anyone that watched the game saw that Durant was facing doubles the whole series. For a wing dealing with Tatum plus help is extremely difficult. A guy is not the focus of the opposing defense just because he drew the best defense. Durant is possibly 8 inches taller than Smart of course Smart won't be primary defender with such a severe mismatch.

I know Durant had faced more doubles. He's faced doubles the entire year to an absurd degree and still performed. But kyrie had the literal DPOY of the entire NBA put on him lol. And you tried to downplay the attention paid to him? That's a joke my friend.

[Shogon]

I still remember shogun was in awe of what kyrie did in the play in games and Game 1 of the playoffs. With no food or water nonetheless. :lol

Durant is the one who shit the bed. Kyrie dominated Game 1 on the road and they lost by a hair because KD had a terrible performance.

Its a totally different series if Nets have that Game 1 right off the bat snatching HCA. But KD shit the bed harder than he ever has.

He actually played defense in game 1 and then he just kinda stopped.

And no he sure as shit is not the best scoring PG of all time. Stephen Curry and Allen Iverson say hello.

[Real Men Wear Green]

I know Durant had faced more doubles. He's faced doubles the entire year to an absurd degree and still performed. But kyrie had the literal DPOY of the entire NBA put on him lol. And you tried to downplay the attention paid to him? That's a joke my friend.
So every scoring point guard or shooting guard the Celtics face is the focus of their defense? Smart isn't the main defender on Giannis so is Jrue Holiday and Grayson Allen the main focus of the defense? You are talking nonsense to defend a point that was wrong to begin with.

[bizil]

Kyrie is a 7 time All Star, has a ring and Olympic gold medal. He's also the most SKILLED scorer ever at the PG spot. YET he's never been in the top 5 player in the league convo. Even top 10 player in the league wise, he hasn't been widely mentioned. More seen as a top 5 PG in the league. And top 12-15 overall among all players.

He didn't make the top 75 team. He isn't considered a top 10 GOAT PG yet. SO HOW exactly is he overrated??? Dame Dolla made the top 75 team over him. NOT saying Dame doesn't deserve it. Just saying Kyrie had JUST AS GOOD of case to make that list as Dame. On Dan Patrick's show the other day, Reggie Miller FLAT OUT SAID Kyrie isn't on a first ballot HOF type of path to give his career as of now. Which I disagree with. To say Kyrie isn't on the path to be a 1st ballot HOFer is BS!!

All this shows Kyrie SURE AS HELL isn't overrated! Just the way he left teams AND his off the court shit is starting to have an impact of how he's viewed as a player.

[bizil]

He actually played defense in game 1 and then he just kinda stopped.

And no he sure as shit is not the best scoring PG of all time. Stephen Curry and Allen Iverson say hello.

AI WASN'T A PG! He was a SG. In terms of SCORING SKILLSET, Kyrie is the best scoring PG ever. Just talking all the shit Kyrie has in his scoring arsenal. If we are talking FLAT OUT the best scorer among PG's, I would say Curry and Oscar top the list. Even though Kyrie is gonna rank hella high in that regard as well. Like top 5 level scorer EVER among PG's!

[tpols]

He actually played defense in game 1 and then he just kinda stopped.

And no he sure as shit is not the best scoring PG of all time. Stephen Curry and Allen Iverson say hello.


Allen Iverson?

You just disqualified yourself mate. Kyries 2016 playoff run was better than any of Iversons in his entire career.

I want to put it into perspective for you. Iverson was 5'11 165 lbs. Kyrie, while small, is 6'1 190 lbs. He's just as strong a finisher while being twice as good a shooter.

Furthermore.... we all SAW Kyrie shit on Curry H2H in their most competitive Finals matchup. What do you make of that?

[Shogon]

AI WASN'T A PG! He was a SG. In terms of SCORING SKILLSET, Kyrie is the best scoring PG ever. Just talking all the shit Kyrie has in his scoring arsenal. If we are talking FLAT OUT the best scorer among PG's, I would say Curry and Oscar top the list. Even though Kyrie is gonna rank hella high in that regard as well. Like top 5 level scorer EVER among PG's!

lmfao @ claiming Irving is a PG and Iverson wasn't.

[Shogon]

Allen Iverson?

You just disqualified yourself mate. Kyries 2016 playoff run was better than any of Iversons in his entire career.

I want to put it into perspective for you. Iverson was 5'11 165 lbs. Kyrie, while small, is 6'1 190 lbs. He's just as strong a finisher while being twice as good a shooter.

Furthermore.... we all SAW Kyrie shit on Curry H2H in their most competitive Finals matchup. What do you make of that?

Are you retarded? Kyrie as the best player on a team might be getting out of the first round, maybe.

Kyrie didn't outplay shit.

Trade Curry and Kyrie for the GS/Cleveland 2016 Finals and how do you think that goes?

Shut that shit up.

[bizil]

lmfao @ claiming Irving is a PG and Iverson wasn't.


Iverson played PG and SG in his career. BUT historically he goes down as an SG. His Finals run and MVP year was as an SG. With Eric Snow as the PG. AI HIMSELF says he's an SG. And PREFERS to play SG! Just said it the other day on the Dan Patrick Show at 20:29

THIS SEASON, Kyrie was at the SG often. BECAUSE Harden played PG while on the Nets. But if Kyrie retired today, HISTORICALLY he goes down as a score first PG. With the Cavs, Kyrie lined up as a PG. But Bron was running shit as point forward. On Boston, Kyrie was the PG. And Boston didn't have a point forward on the squad. There's A REASON you never see AI listed among the top 10 GOAT PG's! BECAUSE he's always listed in the top 10 GOAT SG's!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cm9dpfeOed4

[WhiteKyrie]

Iverson, Big O, The Logo, Arenas, Dame, all combo guards

[bizil]

Iverson, Big O, The Logo, Arenas, Dame, all combo guards

In a sense you are right. BUT they still all have a primary position they go down as historically. AI and West are in the SG group. EVEN THOUGH they played a lot of PG in their career. Oscar,Dame,and Arenas all go down historically as PG's.

[tpols]

Are you retarded? Kyrie as the best player on a team might be getting out of the first round, maybe.

Kyrie didn't outplay shit.

Trade Curry and Kyrie for the GS/Cleveland 2016 Finals and how do you think that goes?

Shut that shit up.

Kyrie didn't outplay Curry in the 2016 Finals? And you have the gall to call somebody else mentally handicapped?

:biggums: :lol

You have balls my friend.

But this is a disservice to your entire argument when you lie in such a preposterous manner. It invalidates your entire point of view. Even the most hardcore fans would concede that.

[8Ball]

Kyrie didn't outplay Curry in the 2016 Finals? And you have the gall to call somebody else mentally handicapped?

:biggums: :lol

You have balls my friend.

But this is a disservice to your entire argument when you lie in such a preposterous manner. It invalidates your entire point of view. Even the most hardcore fans would concede that.

All the defensive attention was on Curry.

They bullied the **** out of him.

If Curry played next to Bron on the cavs vs Kyrie on goldenstste the Cavs sweep and it aint even close.

[ImKobe]

All the defensive attention was on Curry.

They bullied the **** out of him.

If Curry played next to Bron on the cavs vs Kyrie on goldenstste the Cavs sweep and it aint even close.




https://youtu.be/XC-mTgXRfm8

Kevin Love is a BAD man.

[SATAN]

What's with bizil and capitalizing random words?

[Gohan]

Allen Iverson?

You just disqualified yourself mate. Kyries 2016 playoff run was better than any of Iversons in his entire career.

I want to put it into perspective for you. Iverson was 5'11 165 lbs. Kyrie, while small, is 6'1 190 lbs. He's just as strong a finisher while being twice as good a shooter.

Furthermore.... we all SAW Kyrie shit on Curry H2H in their most competitive Finals matchup. What do you make of that?
Youre retarded, not worth responding. Put iverson with lebron and they beat that same warriors team easier

[Shogon]

Kyrie didn't outplay Curry in the 2016 Finals? And you have the gall to call somebody else mentally handicapped?

:biggums: :lol

You have balls my friend.

But this is a disservice to your entire argument when you lie in such a preposterous manner. It invalidates your entire point of view. Even the most hardcore fans would concede that.

What would happen if Curry and Kyrie switched teams for that series? I like how you have repeatedly dodged this question in this thread and others.

Oh wait, Golden State wouldn't make it out of the second round. If they could somehow switch teams, that is a 4 to 0 Cavs victory and you know it.

Kyrie didn't "outplay" shit.

[Gohan]

kyrie is one of the most overrated players ever, for someone with so much skill he doesnt use it. he's like what they act like rasheed wallace was

[ImKobe]

What would happen if Curry and Kyrie switched teams for that series? I like how you have repeatedly dodged this question in this thread and others.

Oh wait, Golden State wouldn't make it out of the second round. If they could somehow switch teams, that is a 4 to 0 Cavs victory and you know it.

Kyrie didn't "outplay" shit.

They wouldn't beat Portland with Kyrie instead of Curry? Weren't they up 2 - 1 in the series without Steph? Didn't they easily beat the Rockets with Steph basically only playing 1 game in that series?

Kyrie outplayed Curry, just admit it. If you ranked the best players in the series, Irving is easily 2nd on the list while Curry is 4th.

[Gohan]

They wouldn't beat Portland with Kyrie instead of Curry? Weren't they up 2 - 1 in the series without Steph? Didn't they easily beat the Rockets with Steph basically only playing 1 game in that series?

Kyrie outplayed Curry, just admit it. If you ranked the best players in the series, Irving is easily 2nd on the list while Curry is 4th.

lebron was playing with kyrie. kyrie was second option while curry was first option. you seen what happens when curry had durant a much lesser player than lebron

[ImKobe]

lebron was playing with kyrie. kyrie was second option while curry was first option. you seen what happens when curry had durant a much lesser player than lebron

So can a first option never be outplayed by a second option? Draymond was the best player on the Warriors in the series. Dray gave Curry the best game of his career in Game 7 and Steph choked with unforced errors and not being able to score on Love/Irving 1 on 1 down the stretch. Irving had Lebron, but Steph had the better team around him. Does Lebron's ball dominant style of play work with Steph against an elite Warriors defense? Do you think the Cavs would have the ball movement to maximize Steph's strengths as an off-ball player? Would he have an easier time scoring on Klay/Dray/Iggy than Irving/Bran/JR?

[NBASTATMAN]

I think so...recency bias and disrespect to earlier PG's has inflated his value. He's a hall of famer but he's not top twenty for his position right now. He's cost more wins that I think any other PG

PG -
Tier 1 - Magic, Oscar, Stockton, Curry, CPIII, Frazier, Kidd, Tiny Archibald, Thomas, Cousy,
Tier 2 - Nash, Parker, Monroe, Lillard, Payton, Wilkens, Doncic, Westbrook, Moncrief, Rondo
Tier 3 - Irving, Price, Jackson, Lowry, Bing, Young, P. Hardaway, D. Johnson, Rose, Cheeks

dude ru on crack or soemthing.. How is Rondo in the SECOND TIER.. lol.. He doesnt belong on any of those tiers.. He couldnt even get off the bench WITH the CLippers a year after winning title with Bron and AD.. Rondo is on par with guys like Avery johnson and Goran Drajic , just lucky enuff to be on great teams..

[NBASTATMAN]

Ask yoursel this... How many teams have played better without Kyrie then with him? I mean Boston better without him,, Cavs did the same without him, Nets better with Hurt Harden over Kyrie.. His teams dont get better record wise either .. His defense is atrocious similar to Luka but Luka makes teammates better ..

[SouBeachTalents]

So can a first option never be outplayed by a second option? Draymond was the best player on the Warriors in the series. Dray gave Curry the best game of his career in Game 7 and Steph choked with unforced errors and not being able to score on Love/Irving 1 on 1 down the stretch. Irving had Lebron, but Steph had the better team around him. Does Lebron's ball dominant style of play work with Steph against an elite Warriors defense? Do you think the Cavs would have the ball movement to maximize Steph's strengths as an off-ball player? Would he have an easier time scoring on Klay/Dray/Iggy than Irving/Bran/JR?
It's indisputable that Kyrie outplayed Curry in 2016, and by a rather substantial margin. But if you swapped the two of them the Cavs with Curry are beating the Dubs with Kyrie rather easily. Kyrie's straight up been mediocre in the playoffs without LeBron, both as a first option in Boston and as a sidekick to KD. I think Curry & LeBron would absolutely thrive together, while I don't think Klay & esp Dray do nearly as well with Kyrie in Curry's place.

[ImKobe]

Ask yoursel this... How many teams have played better without Kyrie then with him? I mean Boston better without him,, Cavs did the same without him, Nets better with Hurt Harden over Kyrie.. His teams dont get better record wise either .. His defense is atrocious similar to Luka but Luka makes teammates better ..

Nets better with hurt Harden, in what universe? They were up 2 - 1 on the Bucks with Irving and lost 3 out of 4 without him (he only played 17 minutes when he got injured, so I do include that game in the missed column, as the outcome could have been different) in the series. How many times have Bran fans made the Irving injury excuse for 2015? He's played on some good ass teams, so they're able to maintain a good record without him. He played the most games out of the Big 3 in Brooklyn last year and they had a 36 - 18 record with him and were 10 - 6 without him. They were also 6 - 3 with him in the POs and 1 - 3 (if you include the game he got injured early in) without.

[NBASTATMAN]

Nets better with hurt Harden, in what universe? They were up 2 - 1 on the Bucks with Irving and lost 3 out of 4 without him (he only played 17 minutes when he got injured, so I do include that game in the missed column, as the outcome could have been different) in the series. How many times have Bran fans made the Irving injury excuse for 2015? He's played on some good ass teams, so they're able to maintain a good record without him. He played the most games out of the Big 3 in Brooklyn last year and they had a 36 - 18 record with him and were 10 - 6 without him. They were also 6 - 3 with him in the POs and 1 - 3 (if you include the game he got injured early in) without.

WHAT was their record with him this year in the playoffs.. I would take Injured Harden over him as he makes others better.. In my opinion Kyrie is the most skilled player ive ever seen but he just doesnt know how to play winning bball .. This year just solidified it.. The first year with Kyrie the Nets were better without him as well..

[ImKobe]

It's indisputable that Kyrie outplayed Curry in 2016, and by a rather substantial margin. But if you swapped the two of them the Cavs with Curry are beating the Dubs with Kyrie rather easily. Kyrie's straight up been mediocre in the playoffs without LeBron, both as a first option in Boston and as a sidekick to KD. I think Curry & LeBron would absolutely thrive together, while I don't think Klay & esp Dray do nearly as well with Kyrie in Curry's place.

It depends. Give Irving years to develop chemistry with those guys and I believe he could do a great job with his skillset. It wouldn't look the same, but they'd still have an elite defense and a good enough offense to compete for championships, especially if you added KD to that mix.

[ImKobe]

WHAT was their record with him this year in the playoffs.. I would take Injured Harden over him as he makes others better.. In my opinion Kyrie is the most skilled player ive ever seen but he just doesnt know how to play winning bball .. This year just solidified it.. The first year with Kyrie the Nets were better without him as well..

They lost to a better team while missing their 3rd best player. He had decent averages for a 2nd option with KD dominating the ball and wasting all those possessions. There's nothing Irving can do to "play winning ball" when Durant's forcing up bad shots and turning the ball over 5 times a game with how bad Brooklyn's defense was due to all the guards they were forced to play out there. It was a mismatch, and KD didn't do enough offensively for them to overcome that.

And there's also the piece that Irving's never played for a team than ran an actual offense. He was drafted to a horrible Cavs team where he was used as an ISO scorer, then Bran comes in and he's still just an ISO scorer, then he goes to Boston where they don't run a real offense either, and now he's on another team that just loves to run ISOs and doesn't really have much off-ball movement. Imagine he was drafted to GS and had the chance to develop his off-ball game and run those plays with Draymond.. he'd be a different player.

[Real Men Wear Green]

They lost to a better team while missing their 3rd best player. He had decent averages for a 2nd option with KD dominating the ball and wasting all those possessions. There's nothing Irving can do to "play winning ball" when Durant's forcing up bad shots and turning the ball over 5 times a game with how bad Brooklyn's defense was due to all the guards they were forced to play out there. It was a mismatch, and KD didn't do enough offensively for them to overcome that.

And there's also the piece that Irving's never played for a team than ran an actual offense. He was drafted to a horrible Cavs team where he was used as an ISO scorer, then Bran comes in and he's still just an ISO scorer, then he goes to Boston where they don't run a real offense either, and now he's on another team that just loves to run ISOs and doesn't really have much off-ball movement. Imagine he was drafted to GS and had the chance to develop his off-ball game and run those plays with Draymond.. he'd be a different player.
Bunch of nonsense. Irving never was on a team that ran plays now? He is an ISO scorer. That is his basketball DNA. Do you know what he said when Nash was hired? That they didn't need coaching. This is how he wants to play. Why do you think he developed the ball handling and lay up skills to the level that he did? This is his game. And there's no shame in that it works for him. But let's not act like he's done kind of historic coaching victim.

[8Ball]

If you think Kyrie Irving is one of the top 10 players of basketball than he is overrated.


If you think Kyrie Irving is just a top 20 player than he is properly rated.


I will never forget that game 5 2016 finals performance where he had one of the most amazing games I ever saw anyone play.

[ImKobe]

Bunch of nonsense. Irving never was on a team that ran plays now? He is an ISO scorer. That is his basketball DNA. Do you know what he said when Nash was hired? That they didn't need coaching. This is how he wants to play. Why do you think he developed the ball handling and lay up skills to the level that he did? This is his game. And there's no shame in that it works for him. But let's not act like he's done kind of historic coaching victim.

How is it nonsense? The Celtics' offense has been very predictable even post-Kyrie with Brown & Tatum taking turns. Now at least Smart's playing more like a PG and Derrick White gives them another playmaker as well, but it's been Tatum & Brown taking turns on ISOing for years. And their Regular Season ORTG numbers have been decent, but they've struggled in crunch time & have been predictable in the Playoffs in past years, which is why they haven't got over the hump yet. And this is not an anti-Boston take, but I find it funny that a Boston fan just blames it on Kyrie and ignores how the Celtics played after his departure. Heck, Tatum ISO-d more frequently than Irving in the '19 RS if you look at the numbers and was still upset that he didn't get the ball more.

"That's his game", yes, let's ignore the teams he's played on and the type of teammates he's played with. He had those handles coming into the NBA, it's not like he couldn't have developed into a better off-ball player in a system like GS. Teammates & coaches matter.

[Real Men Wear Green]

How is it nonsense? The Celtics' offense has been very predictable even post-Kyrie with Brown & Tatum taking turns. Now at least Smart's playing more like a PG and Derrick White gives them another playmaker as well, but it's been Tatum & Brown taking turns on ISOing for years. And their Regular Season ORTG numbers have been decent, but they've struggled in crunch time & have been predictable in the Playoffs in past years, which is why they haven't got over the hump yet. And this is not an anti-Boston take, but I find it funny that a Boston fan just blames it on Kyrie and ignores how the Celtics played after his departure. Heck, Tatum ISO-d more frequently than Irving in the '19 RS if you look at the numbers and was still upset that he didn't get the ball more.

"That's his game", yes, let's ignore the teams he's played on and the type of teammates he's played with. He had those handles coming into the NBA, it's not like he couldn't have developed into a better off-ball player in a system like GS. Teammates & coaches matter.

The truly silly thing here is that you don't realize that it's not just a"Celtic thing. " you want to act like all the Celtics do is isolate Brown and Tatum? You are wrong but fine whatever. Irving has been in the league for a decade. Only two seasons in Boston. He's been with three franchises had a number of head coaches and maybe a hundred different teammates. This whole time he has played he has played the same way but you somehow figure it's just because the men that have been in basketball their whole lives and reached the highest level of their professing don't call plays.

There may not be a point where you are actually capable of franchises that it has something to do with Irving himself but it's pretty obvious.

[BarberSchool]

I think so...recency bias and disrespect to earlier PG's has inflated his value. He's a hall of famer but he's not top twenty for his position right now. He's cost more wins that I think any other PG

PG -
Tier 1 - Magic, Oscar, Stockton, Curry, CPIII, Frazier, Kidd, Tiny Archibald, Thomas, Cousy,
Tier 2 - Nash, Parker, Monroe, Lillard, Payton, Wilkens, Doncic, Westbrook, Moncrief, Rondo
Tier 3 - Irving, Price, Jackson, Lowry, Bing, Young, P. Hardaway, D. Johnson, Rose, Cheeks

There is a 2.8% chance you are Rajon Rondo.

[ImKobe]

The truly silly thing here is that you don't realize that it's not just a"Celtic thing. " you want to act like all the Celtics do is isolate Brown and Tatum? You are wrong but fine whatever. Irving has been in the league for a decade. Only two seasons in Boston. He's been with three franchises had a number of head coaches and maybe a hundred different teammates. This whole time he has played he has played the same way but you somehow figure it's just because the men that have been in basketball their whole lives and reached the highest level of their professing don't call plays.

There may not be a point where you are actually capable of franchises that it has something to do with Irving himself but it's pretty obvious.

That's been the issue with Boston's crunch time offense for years man, their offense stagnates against good teams in crunch time, maybe not as much now as they've figured some things out & re-tooled their roster & changed up their coaching staff, but it wasn't exclusively a Kyrie thing. Anyways, the point is that Irving's never played on a team like the Warriors that share the ball, so how can we assume that he would be the same player in that situation? He's never played for a team that actually moved the ball and played unselfish basketball. The Cavs were the closest thing, and even then they used him for ISOs and had a ball-dominator controlling the entire offense with not that much ball movement. Environment matters. Look at the Warriors before the '15 season and compare it to how they've been playing under Kerr and with Dray being an integral part of their offense. Look at how fast Jordan Poole's developed his game and how he's become another Steph in that offense with the off-ball stuff. You need to be in that environment to develop those skills. Jordan Poole does not develop into what he is right now in Detroit or OKC.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Yeah...10 years in the NBA and you still think it's about everyone else. I'm done.

[BarberSchool]

Bunch of nonsense. Irving never was on a team that ran plays now? He is an ISO scorer. That is his basketball DNA. Do you know what he said when Nash was hired? That they didn't need coaching. This is how he wants to play. Why do you think he developed the ball handling and lay up skills to the level that he did? This is his game. And there's no shame in that it works for him. But let's not act like he's done kind of historic coaching victim.Someone who believes the earth is flat, who also doesn’t want to be lifted to another level of play by one of the greatest PNR players ever ?

Imagine if Kyrie became a truly elite passer out of the pick and roll ? He has the best overall one on one scoring talent for a player below 6’2”, when we factor in scoring from all spots and all ranges. But he ain’t interested in letting Nash change him for the better with addition ? Doesn’t sound fun to play TEAM BALL with that MF.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Someone who believes the earth is flat, who also doesn’t want to be lifted to another level of play by one of the greatest PNR players ever ?

Imagine if Kyrie became a truly elite passer out of the pick and roll ? He has the best overall one on one scoring talent for a player below 6’2”, when we factor in scoring from all spots and all ranges. But he ain’t interested in letting Nash change him for the better with addition ? Doesn’t sound fun to play TEAM BALL with that MF.

In the flip side I can't recall his teammates ever complaining about him publicly and even with the Celtics all the guys he played with are hugging him and shaking hands. I just don't believe for a second that the I s o plays are anything other than what Irving wants to do.

[GimmeThat]

Wade's busted knee is starting to make him overrated more than anything else

[Gohan]

In the flip side I can't recall his teammates ever complaining about him publicly and even with the Celtics all the guys he played with are hugging him and shaking hands. I just don't believe for a second that the I s o plays are anything other than what Irving wants to do.

If he would of played in the early 2000’s he would have gotten plenty of complaints but now players are a tad bit smarter with the media

[ImKobe]

Yeah...10 years in the NBA and you still think it's about everyone else. I'm done.

You can't even agree on the environment being a factor when it comes to player development. :kobe:

[Real Men Wear Green]

You can't even agree on the environment being a factor when it comes to player development. :kobe:

He had been in the league for 10 years. Arguing with the same person forever is not my style. I know when the debate has run its course.

[PANTHALASSA]

Good question OP