Is Stockton higher on the All Time List than Magic?

[BigKobeFan]

Where do you guys put stockton at?

[FultzNationRISE]

Magic is basically Stockton plus a size mismatch.

[tontoz]

Ive never seen anyone put Stockton over Magic. Stockton used to be consensus top 5 pg all time. Not so sure any more.

[BigKobeFan]

Why is stockton so low on the all time list?

[j3lademaster]

I get this is to hate on Lebron's longevity, but Lebron's peak play is also up there with anyone's, so longevity is more used to tip the scales rather than build his entire case for GOAT. Stockton's peak was closer to Mark Price than Magic's.

[3ba11]

I get this is to hate on Lebron's longevity, but Lebron's peak play is also up there with anyone's, so longevity is more used to tip the scales rather than build his entire case for GOAT. Stockton's peak was closer to Mark Price than Magic's.


In theory, equal-scoring partners attract equal defensive attention - it's harder to score when you face maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load)

We're watching Giannis struggle against Boston without an elite scorer to attract defensive attention.

Accordingly, Lebron's peak performance doesn't match Jordan because Lebron never defeated maximum defensive attention (never carried scoring load in Finals) - ultimately, he needs juggernaut scoring help (all-time elite scorers at sidekick ) because he lacks the elite jumpshooting skill needed to defeat maximum defensive attention (and since his high scoring is too ball-dominant to beat good teams, so he needs other elite scoring teammates)..

Heck, Lebron needed tteammates hat could match or lead him in scoring for entire playoff runs (11', 16', 20).. Jordan's peak is 36/7/8 in the 91-93' Finals - Lebron is nowhere near that..

In the 13' Finals, Lebron averaged 16 on 39% thru 3 games while teammates staved off an 0-3 deficit - his 23 on 43% was insufficient through 6 games and needed Ray to force Game 7.. Lebron averaged 25 on 45% overall (not dominant) - he also had a zero plus-minus and negative net rating for the series, so the Heat didn't win with him on the floor.

[post]

Magic is basically Stockton plus a size mismatch.

https://i.ibb.co/ysLdxwc/81y-xddnbul-ac-sl1500.jpg

[post]

Ive never seen anyone put Stockton over Magic. Stockton used to be consensus top 5 pg all time. Not so sure any more.

mikan was the goat

eventually he won't be considered top 50

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/RemorsefulDearestHogget-size_restricted.gif

[post]

I get this is to hate on Lebron's longevity, but Lebron's peak play is also up there with anyone's, so longevity is more used to tip the scales rather than build his entire case for GOAT. Stockton's peak was closer to Mark Price than Magic's.

peak vorp

magic 8.9
stockton 8.3
price 5.0

[BigKobeFan]

Why are u talking about lebron? If anything lebron plays second fiddle

[SouBeachTalents]

No, but neither is Kobe.

[Shooter]

No, but neither is Kobe.

:roll:

[ShawkFactory]

Why are u talking about lebron? If anything lebron plays second fiddle

No one is.

[WhiteKyrie]

No, wtf

Best players ever, and I am going post merger, the REAL NBA. The modern and post modern NBA.

1) MJ
2) Bron
3) Magic
4) Bird
5) Kobe
6) Shaq
7) Hakeem
8) Duncan
9) Giannis
10) KD

PGs:

1) Magic
2) Zeke
3) CP3
4) Curry
5) Stockton

[j3lademaster]

No one is.I brought up Lebron.

[FKAri]

No, wtf

Best players ever, and I am going post merger, the REAL NBA. The modern and post modern NBA.

1) MJ
2) Bron
3) Magic
4) Bird
5) Kobe
6) Shaq
7) Hakeem
8) Duncan
9) Giannis
10) KD

PGs:

1) Magic
2) Zeke
3) CP3
4) Curry
5) Stockton

I love CP3 but over Curry? And speaking of longevity, that'd be the only reason I'd put Magic over Bird.

[WhiteKyrie]

I love CP3 but over Curry? And speaking of longevity, that'd be the only reason I'd put Magic over Bird.
Absolutely. Curry is the better and more prolific scorer, but that’s it. He’s not the better all around player, distributor and definitely not defender. Chris Paul is the most perfect PG ever. Every franchise he’s gone to … he has set the bar for that franchises most winning season. He would’ve had a ring over stacked GS in 2018 if he didn’t pull a hammy. Steph has just played with way, way, way more consolidated talent in his career. I could see an argument for Curry over CP3 but to act like one couldn’t jostle either one over the other then they’re either basketball remedial or disingenuous.

I could see an argument for Magic over Bird, even though they really are equal. Bird played with less talent and was a better all around player, including defensively. But in my heart of hearts they’re equal.

[FultzNationRISE]

Absolutely. Curry is the better and more prolific scorer, but that’s it. He’s not the better all around player, distributor and definitely not defender. Chris Paul is the most perfect PG ever. Every franchise he’s gone to … he has set the bar for that franchises most winning season. He would’ve had a ring over stacked GS in 2018 if he didn’t pull a hammy. Steph has just played with way, way, way more consolidated talent in his career. I could see an argument for Curry over CP3 but to act like one couldn’t jostle either one over the other then they’re either basketball remedial or disingenuous.

I could see an argument for Magic over Bird, even though they really are equal. Bird played with less talent and was a better all around player, including defensively. But in my heart of hearts they’re equal.

Yup.

If you take away the disparity in teammates/organization, Paul is the more substantive player.

Paul also plays really well in crunch time right up until the VERY end (at which point he chokes) while Curry mostly disappears for the entirety of crunch time.

[Axe]

Since stockton has higher career total points than magic, he's technically better than him.

[Pointguard]

I could see an argument for Magic over Bird, even though they really are equal. Bird played with less talent and was a better all around player, including defensively. But in my heart of hearts they’re equal.
Magic was the best all around player there was. He ran his teams on a level nobody else could. When he was substituted with Stockton on All Star teams or Olympics the drop off of play was huge, and Stockton could really run a team. Magic could get more out of the other four players than any other player ever. That's all around talent. He was a great leader that could fill nearly every void. Magic lead a team that shot over 54 percent from the field. That's not a typo. He fillled in for Kareem in one of Kareem's best playoff runs ever and closed out the series upping Kareem's output. He lead his team in rebounding. In fact, the first four years in the league he was a better offensive rebounder than Bird. Hard to do from the guard position but he did it. It was only when Magic moved to PG that he couldn't maintain it. Defensively, he deserves props too, because he controlled the game better than any player ever. Popovich made a career out of controlling pace. Jason Kidd took a last place team to the championship in one year just by controlling the pace. There is no better defense than to have the other team play your game. Magic was the best all around player. His career TS% will be very close to Curry's when its said and done, and far above Bird's. Magic had supreme judgement on what to do on the court and when to shoot.

[Round Mound]

Love both of them but Magic is the GOAT Pointguard IMO.

[John8204]

No...for me when it comes to PG...

1. Magic (top 10)
2. Oscar (top 15)
3. Stockton (top 15)
4. Curry (top 20)
5. CPIII (top 20)
6. Frazier (top 30)
7. Kidd (top 30)
8. Isiah (top 40)
9. Cousy (top 40)
10. Archibald (top 50)
11. Payton (top 60)
12. Nash (top 70)
13. Parker (top 80)
14. Moncrief (top 100)
15. Lillard (top 100)

Stockton is the best pure Point I ever saw play the game, but Magic and Oscar have more accomplishments. Curry is the best shooter but I don't think I can rank him any higher than he already is. CPIII has jumped up my rankings in the past five years...I think the guy can make the playoffs for the four worst starters in the league. After that I'm looking at the best of the decade...Frazier (70's), Kidd (00's), Cousy (50's) to go with (Paul(10's), Magic (80's), Stockton (90's), Oscar (60's). Longevity is also very important to me for this position, Jason Kidd, Chris Paul and John Stockton all were very productive into their mid and late thirties.

[post]

No, wtf

Best players ever, and I am going post merger, the REAL NBA. The modern and post modern NBA.

1) MJ
2) Bron
3) Magic
4) Bird
5) Kobe
6) Shaq
7) Hakeem
8) Duncan
9) Giannis
10) KD

PGs:

1) Magic
2) Zeke
3) CP3
4) Curry
5) Stockton

since 74

top 10

peak vorp

jordan 12.4
lebron 11.7
robinson 11.3
garnett 9.9
paul 9.8
jokic 9.8
durant 9.6
wade 9.6
curry 9.4
harden 9.3

career vorp

lebron 142
jordan 116
stockton 106
k. malone 98
garnett 96
paul 93
duncan 91
kareem 85
dirk 84
robinson 81

since 74

pg

peak vorp

paul 9.9
curry 9.5
westbrook 9.3
magic 8.9
stockton 8.3

career vorp

stockton 106.5
paul 93.6
magic 79.7
kidd 73.4
payton 62.5

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/GratefulIdenticalDinosaur-size_restricted.gif

[bizil]

Stock is one of the top five floor generals of all time. BY THAT I mean dropping dimes and truly making his guys better on the court. Hell GOAT wise, a top 5-7 level PG as well. But on a peak-prime level or GOAT level he's ain't on Magic's level. And think about what Magic accomplished in a relatively short career. He retired for the 1st time when he just turned 32. Was still the 2nd best player in the league only behind MJ. Just came off a Finals appearance as well. Magic and Isiah were pass first PG's who could ALSO had alpha dog scoring shit as well. That combo is HELLA RARE in NBA history. Stock NEVER had that type of combo.

Then u factor Magic being the godfather of positionless basketball AND his triple double ability ON TOP of his other traits, Magic is basically a one of one at the PG position. You gotta look at guys at the SF spot BASICALLY to find guys who line up more to Magic's traits. Luka in certain respects is close in a sense. But Luka is still 2 inches shorter. And I view Luka more as a PG-SG-SF type. Not a PG-SG-SF-PF and at times maybe center like a Magic or Bron.

[WhiteKyrie]

since 74

top 10

peak vorp

jordan 12.4
lebron 11.7
robinson 11.3
garnett 9.9
paul 9.8
jokic 9.8
durant 9.6
wade 9.6
curry 9.4
harden 9.3

career vorp

lebron 142
jordan 116
stockton 106
k. malone 98
garnett 96
paul 93
duncan 91
kareem 85
dirk 84
robinson 81

since 74

pg

peak vorp

paul 9.9
curry 9.5
westbrook 9.3
magic 8.9
stockton 8.3

career vorp

stockton 106.5
paul 93.6
magic 79.7
kidd 73.4
payton 62.5

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/GratefulIdenticalDinosaur-size_restricted.gif

That’s only VORP. That ain’t the end all, be all. And that’s the dorky shit you’re relying to lazily and exclusively make your list?

[post]

That’s only VORP. That ain’t the end all, be all. And that’s the dorky shit you’re relying to lazily and exclusively make your list?

top 10 careers since 1976 according to raptor

jordan
lebron (probably passed jordan by now)
stockton
paul
magic
duncan
garnett
kobe
bird
kidd

raptor math sounds scary

i wouldn't try fighting it

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DistortedIdenticalArcticfox-size_restricted.gif

[Mr. Woke]

Stockton is one of the most overrated players of all time, and he is not a top 6 PG of all time.

Here are the top 6 PGs of all time (in alphabetical order): Steph Curry, Magic Johnson, Jason Kidd, Steve Nash, Chris Paul, and Isiah Thomas.

[John8204]

Stockton is one of the most overrated players of all time, and he is not a top 6 PG of all time.

Here are the top 6 PGs of all time (in alphabetical order): Steph Curry, Magic Johnson, Jason Kidd, Steve Nash, Chris Paul, and Isiah Thomas.

So PG's didn't exist before 1980....f'n casual. John Stockton missed 22 games...in 19 seasons I believe Kidd and Paul managed to play a full season once each.

[post]

Stockton is one of the most overrated players of all time, and he is not a top 6 PG of all time.

Here are the top 6 PGs of all time (in alphabetical order): Steph Curry, Magic Johnson, Jason Kidd, Steve Nash, Chris Paul, and Isiah Thomas.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=za5jDB8kw8Y


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgQtMej-v0E

[Shooter]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=za5jDB8kw8Y


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgQtMej-v0E

BREAKING: Players have retarded takes.

Great, like we didn't already know that when guys like Dwight Howard said Kobe was better than Jordan.

[Xiao Yao You]

So PG's didn't exist before 1980....f'n casual. John Stockton missed 22 games...in 19 seasons I believe Kidd and Paul managed to play a full season once each.

Kidd also shot horribly while Stockton was one of the most efficient players ever

[Pointguard]

Stock is one of the top five floor generals of all time. BY THAT I mean dropping dimes and truly making his guys better on the court. Hell GOAT wise, a top 5-7 level PG as well. But on a peak-prime level or GOAT level he's ain't on Magic's level. And think about what Magic accomplished in a relatively short career. He retired for the 1st time when he just turned 32. Was still the 2nd best player in the league only behind MJ. Just came off a Finals appearance as well. Magic and Isiah were pass first PG's who could ALSO had alpha dog scoring shit as well. That combo is HELLA RARE in NBA history. Stock NEVER had that type of combo.

Then u factor Magic being the godfather of positionless basketball AND his triple double ability ON TOP of his other traits, Magic is basically a one of one at the PG position. You gotta look at guys at the SF spot BASICALLY to find guys who line up more to Magic's traits. Luka in certain respects is close in a sense. But Luka is still 2 inches shorter. And I view Luka more as a PG-SG-SF type. Not a PG-SG-SF-PF and at times maybe center like a Magic or Bron.

Great Post!!!:rockon::rockon::rockon:

[post]

BREAKING: Players have retarded takes.

Great, like we didn't already know that when guys like Dwight Howard said Kobe was better than Jordan.

when analytics and gp agree you know it's

https://i.ibb.co/rMx20f1/ezgif-1-5f3dc4acef-1.gif

[kawhileonard2]

Why is stockton so low on the all time list?

No title and teammate won league mvp twice.

[Mr. Woke]

So PG's didn't exist before 1980....f'n casual. John Stockton missed 22 games...in 19 seasons I believe Kidd and Paul managed to play a full season once each.

You are the one who is a retard casual.

Stockton's peak was worse than the peaks of the other players I mentioned. I personally value peak more than longevity.

[Mr. Woke]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=za5jDB8kw8Y


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgQtMej-v0E

So?

I disagree with their opinions.

[Mr. Woke]

Kidd also shot horribly while Stockton was one of the most efficient players ever

Stockton was too passive offensively. If he had been more aggressive offensively, the Jazz would have had a better shot of winning a championship. Instead, he cared too much about his percentages and assist totals.

[Baller789]

You are the one who is a retard casual.

Stockton's peak was worse than the peaks of the other players I mentioned. I personally value peak more than longevity.

:oldlol:

[Baller789]

Stockton was too passive offensively. If he had been more aggressive offensively, the Jazz would have had a better shot of winning a championship. Instead, he cared too much about his percentages and assist totals.

Sounds famiar...

[Mr. Woke]

:oldlol:

Retard monkey is back, I see.

Peak is more indicative of a player's greatness than longevity. Stockton played 19 years and only made the All-NBA First Team twice :roll:

[Mr. Woke]

Sounds famiar...

CP3 is kinda similar to Stockton in that regard. But, even he is more aggressive offensively.

[8Ball]

Retard monkey is back, I see.

Peak is more indicative of a player's greatness than longevity. Stockton played 19 years and only made the All-NBA First Team twice :roll:

In a league with crappy point guards too.

[Hey Yo]

Magic was the best all around player there was. He ran his teams on a level nobody else could. When he was substituted with Stockton on All Star teams or Olympics the drop off of play was huge, and Stockton could really run a team. Magic could get more out of the other four players than any other player ever. That's all around talent. He was a great leader that could fill nearly every void. Magic lead a team that shot over 54 percent from the field. That's not a typo. He fillled in for Kareem in one of Kareem's best playoff runs ever and closed out the series upping Kareem's output. He lead his team in rebounding. In fact, the first four years in the league he was a better offensive rebounder than Bird. Hard to do from the guard position but he did it. It was only when Magic moved to PG that he couldn't maintain it. Defensively, he deserves props too, because he controlled the game better than any player ever. Popovich made a career out of controlling pace. Jason Kidd took a last place team to the championship in one year just by controlling the pace. There is no better defense than to have the other team play your game. Magic was the best all around player. His career TS% will be very close to Curry's when its said and done, and far above Bird's. Magic had supreme judgement on what to do on the court and when to shoot.

Magic played ZERO defense.

[post]

So?

I disagree with their opinions.

nash: "stockton is the best point guard of all time"

barkley: "stockton is the perfect point guard"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-kv__JgCos

[Mr. Woke]

In a league with crappy point guards too.

Right on.

[Mr. Woke]

nash: "stockton is the best point guard of all time"

barkley: "stockton is the perfect point guard"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-kv__JgCos

Those are opinions.

I personally disagree with their opinions.

[8Ball]

Right on.

Stockton:

10× NBA All-Star (1989–1997, 2000)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (1993)
2× All-NBA First Team (1994, 1995)
6× All-NBA Second Team (1988–1990, 1992, 1993, 1996)
3× All-NBA Third Team (1991, 1997, 1999)
5× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1989, 1991, 1992, 1995, 1997)

CP3

12× NBA All-Star (2008–2016, 2020–2022)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (2013)
4× All-NBA First Team (2008, 2012–2014)
5× All-NBA Second Team (2009, 2015, 2016, 2020, 2021)
All-NBA Third Team (2011)
7× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2009, 2012–2017)
2× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2008, 2011)

[tontoz]

CP3 is basically Stockton with more scoring ability but not as reliable. I would rank CP3 higher.

[j3lademaster]

In a league with crappy point guards too.Only compared to recent years. Kidd, GP, Stockton, Mark Price, KJ, Tim, Penny, Terry Porter; 90's definitely wasn't a weak decade of pg's. It's for sure worse than Kyrie, DRose, Westbrook, CP3, Steph, Rondo, Lillard etc though.

[post]

Those are opinions.

I personally disagree with their opinions.

top ten peak seasons since the merger according to raptor

jordan
lebron
curry
paul/jokic (tie)
garnett
wade/draymond (tie)
stockton
bird/duncan (tie)

https://i.ibb.co/w6PjZ9J/ezgif-5-560f967ebb-1.gif

[kawhileonard2]

Stockton:

10× NBA All-Star (1989–1997, 2000)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (1993)
2× All-NBA First Team (1994, 1995)
6× All-NBA Second Team (1988–1990, 1992, 1993, 1996)
3× All-NBA Third Team (1991, 1997, 1999)
5× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1989, 1991, 1992, 1995, 1997)

CP3

12× NBA All-Star (2008–2016, 2020–2022)
NBA All-Star Game MVP (2013)
4× All-NBA First Team (2008, 2012–2014)
5× All-NBA Second Team (2009, 2015, 2016, 2020, 2021)
All-NBA Third Team (2011)
7× NBA All-Defensive First Team (2009, 2012–2017)
2× NBA All-Defensive Second Team (2008, 2011)

Stockton was a bit better than CP3.

[John8204]

You are the one who is a retard casual.

Stockton's peak was worse than the peaks of the other players I mentioned. I personally value peak more than longevity.

Well Wilt Chamberlain agrees with me while your momma....

[Shooter]

Stockton was a bit better than CP3.

:roll: