Haralabos Voulgaris' time with Dallas proved that numbers bots don't know basketball

[3ba11]

The current Mavs roster poorly supports or fits Doncic and it's largely Voulgaris' doing.

The Mavs gave him a lot of power but haven't made a single move that effectively supported Doncic since Voulgaris came on board in October of 2018 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DAL/2019_transactions.html).

Luka hated (https://theathletic.com/2649806/2021/06/14/inside-the-mavericks-front-office-mark-cubans-shadow-gm-is-causing-a-rift-with-luka-doncic/) this guy, so I'm just the messenger.. :confusedshrug:.

Pro gamblers use professional tactics to analyze the spread and take advantage - it doesn't mean they know shit about basketball and this was proven with Voulgaris' disastrous Mavericks run.. Luka has a shitty cast that doesn't fit because of Voulgaris.

[SouBeachTalents]

1-9

[3ba11]

1-9


The numbers say to pursue threes and layups, but actual basketball knowledge is required to know the best method of pursuing those threes and layups..

Understanding the quantitative factors is only half the battle because there's the qualitative aspect that tells the story behind the numbers

[SouBeachTalents]

The numbers say to pursue threes and layups, but actual basketball knowledge is required to know the best method of pursuing those threes and layups..

Understanding the quantitative factors is only half the battle because there's the qualitative aspect that tells the story behind the numbers
No Pip, no chip

[Akeem34TheDream]

No Pip, no chip

He makes a non Lebron thread first time ever and this is your response?:mad:

[3ba11]

No Pip, no chip


It's coincidence that the only time MJ didn't have Pippen are the first few years when most guys don't win any series like Giannis, Lebron, Durant or Curry

If the only knock on Jordan is that he lost when everyone loses, then it isn't a knock and he had the perfect career.

The historical record confirms this common knowledge - Jordan averaged 45 in his first playoff series victory, while about 200 different players could've replaced rookie Pippen's 8 ppg

[SouBeachTalents]

It's coincidence that the only time MJ didn't have Pippen are the first few years when most guys don't win any series like Giannis, Lebron, Durant or Curry

If the only knock on Jordan is that he lost when everyone loses, then it isn't a knock and he had the perfect career.

The historical record confirms this common knowledge - Jordan averaged 45 in his first playoff series victory, while about 200 different players could've replaced rookie Pippen's 8 ppg
1-9

[8Ball]

1-9

:roll:

[3ba11]

1-9


Just a reminder - we established a while ago that when the first response is 1-9, that's a concession..

It's kind of like cursing... When you curse, that's all you have left - it can be a sign of desperation if it isn't purposeful grandstanding.

So 1-9... Okay.. that means a few first round losses as a rookie eight seed or injury-comeback player 8 seed - that's nothing compared to losing with good teams in your prime a bunch of times, lol

Your guy lost a bunch with good teams in his prime, yet you're like "but MJ lost with horrible teams as a rookie"

[3ba11]

He makes a non-fraud-busting thread first time ever and this is your response?:mad:


lmao

(pardon the minor edit to your post)

[bison]

Had to look this guy up. So the mavs let a professional sports gambler be in charge of research and development? :roll: Predicting a teams success =\= being able to build team success. Oddsmakers don’t know jack shit. A lot was made of the lakers and nets being Vegas favorites prior to this season, but anyone with rudimentary knowledge of basketball had the lakers finishing 7 or 8 seed at best.

[John_Connor]

Lukas a great scorer like bird and kobe but he tries too hard to be like his failed idol lebron pounding the ball all game for kick out threes instead of running a smart offensive system. he gets along with Jason kid and hated Rick Carlisle because he was a real head coach that wanted to run actual plays. kid just let's him do whatever he wants. Lukas mind has been corrupted by stat chasing basketball. he should play off ball more and let others get going like kobe did in 1st quarters then take over late so he still has energy. but sadly lebron has polluted the minds of many in the league like James harden, Trae Young and others. it's sad. what a waste. bow the only way he'll ever win is if he colludes with other stars and they submit to his demands


hes still my favorite player but we are gonna go through some growing pains with him like lebron fans went through in his first 7 years in Cleveland

[SouBeachTalents]

Just a reminder - we established a while ago that when the first response is 1-9, that's a concession..

It's kind of like cursing... When you curse, that's all you have left - it can be a sign of desperation if it isn't purposeful grandstanding.

So 1-9... Okay.. that means a few first round losses as a rookie eight seed or injury-comeback player 8 seed - that's nothing compared to losing with good teams in your prime a bunch of times, lol

Your guy lost a bunch with good teams in his prime, yet you're like "but MJ lost with horrible teams as a rookie"
No Pip, no chip

[3ba11]

Had to look this guy up. So the mavs let a professional sports gambler be in charge of research and development? :roll: Predicting a teams success =\= being able to build team success. Oddsmakers don’t know jack shit. A lot was made of the lakers and nets being Vegas favorites prior to this season, but anyone with rudimentary knowledge of basketball had the lakers finishing 7 or 8 seed at best.


Lol that's true - oddsmakers made the 2 worst brands of ball in the league into the league favorites based on the on-paper talent - and that's what the preseason odds are - they're a measure of on-paper talent.

Furthermore, only a weak brand of ball can make favored talent underachieve, so when Lebron's preseason favorites fell to Finals underdog or loser for 6 straight years (11-16'), we know it's due to weak brand of ball (big man ball-dominance, aka the worst kind of ball-dominance that makes everyone stand in corner and yields low-assist teams)

Since a weak brand of ball can make favored talent underachieve, it's necessary to fuse the on-paper talent AND brand of ball to have effective preseason odds

[Kawhi_Why_Not]

Excuse me? Jaylen Brunson was averaging 28PPG in the 1st round. They put decent role players around him. Who do you expect them to get??

If anything, luka is proving rick carlisle correct. A no defense ballhog who wont ever win anything.

[3ba11]

Excuse me? Jaylen Brunson was averaging 28PPG in the 1st round. They put decent role players around him. Who do you expect them to get??

If anything, luka is proving rick carlisle correct. A no defense ballhog who wont ever win anything.




You're making my point - Brunson doesn't fit with Luka and averages far more without Luka - Voulgaris traded away the perfect type of PG that can play alongside a ball-dominator like Luka - Seth Curry - a spot-up shooter - like a rich man's Paxson or Derek Fisher (5 titles, aka that's a good player-type to have on a lot of teams, aka good brand of ball)

But you have to actually understand the game of basketball to know that.. it ain't on the spreadsheet you know what I'm saying?

[NBAGOAT]

You're making my point - Brunson doesn't fit with Luka and averages far more without Luka - Voulgaris traded away the perfect type of PG that can play alongside a ball-dominator like Luka - Seth Curry - a spot-up shooter - like a rich man's Paxson or Derek Fisher (5 titles, aka that's a good player-type to have on a lot of teams, aka good brand of ball)

But you have to actually understand the game of basketball to know that.. it ain't on the spreadsheet you know what I'm saying?

he wasnt the gm and one guy being wrong doesnt mean all analytics guys are clueless. What about daryl morey or countless other gms

[ZenMaster]

Had to look this guy up. So the mavs let a professional sports gambler be in charge of research and development? :roll: Predicting a teams success =\= being able to build team success. Oddsmakers don’t know jack shit. A lot was made of the lakers and nets being Vegas favorites prior to this season, but anyone with rudimentary knowledge of basketball had the lakers finishing 7 or 8 seed at best.

I played poker against this guy a couple of times, I promise you he knows a shit ton about basketball.
One of the early guys to build predictive models of outcomes of individual games which beat the oddsmakers, nothing to do with season bets like you're suggesting.

[Kawhi_Why_Not]

Lukas a great scorer like bird and kobe but he tries too hard to be like his failed idol lebron pounding the ball all game for kick out threes instead of running a smart offensive system. he gets along with Jason kid and hated Rick Carlisle because he was a real head coach that wanted to run actual plays. kid just let's him do whatever he wants. Lukas mind has been corrupted by stat chasing basketball. he should play off ball more and let others get going like kobe did in 1st quarters then take over late so he still has energy. but sadly lebron has polluted the minds of many in the league like James harden, Trae Young and others. it's sad. what a waste. bow the only way he'll ever win is if he colludes with other stars and they submit to his demands


hes still my favorite player but we are gonna go through some growing pains with him like lebron fans went through in his first 7 years in Cleveland

That's what Kawhi, Booker, Chris Paul do.

All guys with the Jordan\Kobe gene.

These f*aggots with the lebron gene like Luka are just wasting all their energy in the first three quarters and also freezing out their teammates.

[Kawhi_Why_Not]

You're making my point - Brunson doesn't fit with Luka and averages far more without Luka - Voulgaris traded away the perfect type of PG that can play alongside a ball-dominator like Luka - Seth Curry - a spot-up shooter - like a rich man's Paxson or Derek Fisher (5 titles, aka that's a good player-type to have on a lot of teams, aka good brand of ball)

But you have to actually understand the game of basketball to know that.. it ain't on the spreadsheet you know what I'm saying?

makes sense. So it's a deficiency in Luka ball

[NBAGOAT]

I played poker against this guy a couple of times, I promise you he knows a shit ton about basketball.
One of the early guys to build predictive models of outcomes of individual games which beat the oddsmakers, nothing to do with season bets like you're suggesting.

yea he was a pretty good poker player back in the day.

[ImKobe]

You can't win the game based on just analytics. Morey & the Rockets tried it for years with volume 3s but team chemistry and having a player who can get easy shots from mid-range are just as big of a factor. It's why Chris Paul is such a great player. Suns defy a lot of the analytics out there. I'm sure the numbers would say that the Mavs played really well based on their shot selection vs. the Mavs shooting all those 10-20-footers, but the 3PT shot is too volatile unless you have Steph & Klay, and even then those guys can have horrible shooting nights on wide open looks, while the mid-range shot has been a consistent tool that most championship teams have relied on for decades.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FSBnZ_BXoAUY5f2?format=jpg&name=small

This list is mostly based on the 3PT shot because the analytics love it so much, which is why the Suns are so low on this list. Sixers have had awful 3PT shooting numbers in the Heat series, but they rely on the 3PT shot (due to Embiid's injury of course) without having great 3PT shooters.

[Shooter]

1-9

[BarberSchool]

Bean-counting owners love Vegas-odds, loophole-exploiting, speculative-investment MF’s like voulgaris. All of them are beyond redemption.

[Stephonit]

I'm actually impressed that it was during Voulgaris' time that the Mavs produced the highest offensive rating of all-time. I doubt any of you would do better in his shoes.

[3ba11]

I'm actually impressed that it was during Voulgaris' time that the Mavs produced the highest offensive rating of all-time. I doubt any of you would do better in his shoes.


The Nets' brand of "your-turn-my-turn" and the Lakers' poor teammate fits were #1 and #2 in preseason odds.

So odds-makers predicted that the 2 worst brands of ball in the league were infact the favorites based on the on-paper talent.

That's what the preseason odds are - they're a measure of on-paper talent.. But favored talent can fall to underdog due to weak brand of ball, like the 22' Lakers (worst-ever teammate fits), or when Lebron's preseason favorites fell to Finals underdog or loser for 6 straight years (11-16') - except the Ray Allen miracle.

So Lebron's career is the best example of suboptimal brand causing favored talent to underachieve..

I apologize if this should be in the other thread but it seems that weak brand of ball (teammate fits & development, chemistry or strategy) only applies to Lebron.. He's a talent-based winner (all-star team strategy) that never learned how to win (brand of ball.. organic).. He's a lot like Luka where he ties a coach's hands into playing 1 way - it's a paper tiger that requires ridiculous supporting talent to win..

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm pessimistic about Luka because his brand of ball reminds me of when Lebron couldn't win a weak East with homecourt in 09' and 10' - or when he had a bummy, 45-win team in Year 5 and averaged 26 on 35% to lose in 2nd Round.. Then Mo arrived in 2009 and taught us that Lebron needs shooters, while notching superior PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48, scoring and efficiency than 90' Pippen... But that kind of strategy was in beginning stages and still got solved pretty easily.. So unlike Lebron, Luka must evolve out of ball-dominant offenses that revolve around him.. Barkley actually said it best - the star's job is to win the game in the 4th and the "others" should be carrying the load until then (developing as threats)..

And I would add that any bum can bring the ball up - how a possession CLOSES is all that matters - so Luka's wizardry with the ball is great and he'll always be great with that, but he needs to learn how to let the ball move and wear down the defense first - then catch the ball at the end of possessions and close.. This wins the attrition battle better (wears the defense down so they have less capacity for offense), while also maximizing teammates.

[SouBeachTalents]

The Nets' brand of "your-turn-my-turn" and the Lakers' poor teammate fits were #1 and #2 in preseason odds.

So odds-makers predicted that the 2 worst brands of ball in the league were infact the favorites based on the on-paper talent.

That's what the preseason odds are - they're a measure of on-paper talent.. But favored talent can fall to underdog due to weak brand of ball, like the 22' Lakers (worst-ever teammate fits), or when Lebron's preseason favorites fell to Finals underdog or loser for 6 straight years (11-16') - except the Ray Allen miracle.

So Lebron's career is the best example of suboptimal brand causing favored talent to underachieve..

I apologize if this should be in the other thread but it seems that weak brand of ball (teammate fits & development, chemistry or strategy) only applies to Lebron.. He's a talent-based winner (all-star team strategy) that never learned how to win (brand of ball.. organic).. He's a lot like Luka where he ties a coach's hands into playing 1 way - it's a paper tiger that requires ridiculous supporting talent to win..

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm pessimistic about Luka because his brand of ball reminds me of when Lebron couldn't win a weak East with homecourt in 09' and 10' - or when he had a bummy, 45-win team in Year 5 and averaged 26 on 35% to lose in 2nd Round.. Then Mo arrived in 2009 and taught us that Lebron needs shooters, while notching superior PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48, scoring and efficiency than 90' Pippen... But that kind of strategy was in beginning stages and still got solved pretty easily.. So unlike Lebron, Luka must evolve out of ball-dominant offenses that revolve around him.. Barkley actually said it best - the star's job is to win the game in the 4th and the "others" should be carrying the load until then (developing as threats)..

And I would add that any bum can bring the ball up - how a possession CLOSES is all that matters - so Luka's wizardry with the ball is great and he'll always be great with that, but he needs to learn how to let the ball move and wear down the defense first - then catch the ball at the end of possessions and close.. This wins the attrition battle better (wears the defense down so they have less capacity for offense), while also maximizing teammates.
1-9

[90sgoat]

Excuse me? Jaylen Brunson was averaging 28PPG in the 1st round. They put decent role players around him. Who do you expect them to get??

If anything, luka is proving rick carlisle correct. A no defense ballhog who wont ever win anything.

Is Brunson averaging 10 points pr. game in this series?

Brunson is the same as he was last year, can't score on length and when he can't score he is pretty useless, because he isn't a passer or floor general and he's a non-factor on defense.

He's a tank commander at best, Isiah Thomas type player and if he isn't careful, he can lose his extension in the same way.

At best Brunson is a 6th man and that is at best.

[90sgoat]

That's what Kawhi, Booker, Chris Paul do.

All guys with the Jordan\Kobe gene.

These f*aggots with the lebron gene like Luka are just wasting all their energy in the first three quarters and also freezing out their teammates.

Luka has a ridiculous time of possession, it's peak Westbrook high, absolutely insane.

Won't ever win until he gets down to even Lebron James level.

[3ba11]

Dallas was a lottery or 1st Round bum with Voulgaris

ECF without

Luka exploded in the playoffs once there wasn't some nerd telling him to "calm down" and disrupting the organization