The last 10 mvp winners. Give me your top 5 in order. [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

Real Men Wear Green

05-10-2022, 01:37 PM

#1 Antetokunmpo. Only guy that can average 30 and can also win DPoY
#2 James. Back then he could play elite defense when he wanted to and was also right there as one of the best offensive players in the game.
#3 Durant. May not be acknowledged as such but this is one of the greatest scorers of all time and pre-injury was an excellent man defender.
#4 Jokic. Giving him the edge over Curry basically because he's an excellent rebounder.
#5 Curry.

FultzNationRISE

05-10-2022, 01:38 PM

1 Lebron
2 Jokic
3 Jokic
4 Durant I guess?
5 I dont know.

Harden and Westbrook are overrated stat padding numbskulls, theyre at the bottom. Giannis and Curry are better than those two of course but also get overrated because of their supporting casts. I also dont remember their specific seasons well enough to decide between the two.

Kblaze8855

05-10-2022, 01:43 PM

2013 - Lebron
2016 - Curry
2020 - Giannis
2014 - Durant
2015 - Curry (if Harden wins a chip this year I'll put him at 5)

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DismalPleasedFlea-size_restricted.gif

Shogon

05-10-2022, 01:44 PM

AlternativeAcc.

05-10-2022, 01:46 PM

2013 LeBron
2014 Durant
2022 Jokic
2020 Giannis
2019 Giannis

The other guys are frauds.

Shogon

05-10-2022, 01:49 PM

2013 LeBron
2014 Durant
2022 Jokic
2020 Giannis
2019 Giannis

The other guys are frauds.

Not entirely fair... it is a regular season award. No unbiased person would leave 2016 off of their list.

Love him or hate him his game was on another level that year in particular.

Curry ends up being a revolutionary player... guys like Giannis, Jokic, Harden, Westbrook, Durant, are not revolutionaries.

Kblaze8855

05-10-2022, 01:52 PM

The people putting LeBron so low or off of their lists clearly don't remember 9 years ago, not that I really blame them. 9 years feels like a long ass time ago in our memories, even though it's a short time.

I'm not entirely sure people remember the stretch of games KD put up in 2014, either, tbh... at least based on this thread.

A lot of that just looks less impressive relative to the numbers people can do these days. Whatever Durants stretch was it wasn’t 60 point triple doubles or anything like we saw from Harden or see weekly from Luka, Jokic, and so on now.

Prime LeBron and KD numbers look amazing next to the 20 years before them but next to those 10 and 20 years after? People will probably look at those those numbers like they don’t see the big deal.

Giannis had like a 30/14/6 55% season playing 31 minutes a game. All that 26/7/7 shit is dead far as what production stands out.

AlternativeAcc.

05-10-2022, 01:55 PM

Not entirely fair... it is a regular season award. No unbiased person would leave 2016 off of their list.

Love him or hate him his game was on another level that year in particular.

Curry ends up being a revolutionary player... guys like Giannis, Jokic, Harden, Westbrook, Durant, are not revolutionaries.

Curry only gives you scoring, everyone else gives you elite scoring on top of defense and/or playmaking. Durant carried a team to 60 wins with Ibaka as his 2nd option for the majority of the season.

Curry was surrounded by a top 3 all-time shooter and all-time defender, and arguably the deepest team ever. All he had to do was score.

Him and his 2016 year are insanely overrated. He didn't revolutionize anything, shooting 3s isn't revolutionary

Giannis having DPOY defense, elite scoring, elite playmaking is more impressive. Same with LeBron. What Jokic did is easily better. Same with Durant.

Shogon

05-10-2022, 01:56 PM

A lot of that just looks less impressive relative to the numbers people can do these days. Whatever Durants stretch was it wasn’t 60 point triple doubles or anything like we saw from Harden or see weekly from Luka, Jokic, and so on now.

Prime LeBron and KD numbers look amazing next to the 20 years before them but next to those 10 and 20 years after? People will probably look at those those numbers like they don’t see the big deal.

Giannis had like a 30/14/6 55% season playing 31 minutes a game. All that 26/7/7 shit is dead far as what production stands out.

This is why you need both stats AND the eye test and can only hope to ascertain "objective truth."

Floor spacing / emphasis and competency regarding 3 point shooting have increased dramatically from the early 2010s until now on a league wide scale.

Kevin Durant in 2014 was on another level from the guys you mentioned.

In fact, the way that teams and players actually play the games has changed so much that it's almost impossible to compare eras and unfair because it's all just speculation. I now know what Jordan meant when he said that 20-30 years ago.

Shogon

05-10-2022, 02:00 PM

Curry only gives you scoring, everyone else gives you elite scoring on top of defense and/or playmaking. Durant carried a team to 60 wins with Ibaka as his 2nd option for the majority of the season.

Curry was surrounded by a top 3 all-time shooter and all-time defender, and arguably the deepest team ever. All he had to do was score.

Him and his 2016 year are insanely overrated. He didn't revolutionize anything, shooting 3s isn't revolutionary

Giannis having DPOY defense, elite scoring, elite playmaking is more impressive. Same with LeBron. What Jokic did is easily better. Same with Durant.

He has the highest gravity in NBA history. And we have yet to see the fruits of his impact on young players. The kids that were 5 to 10 years old in 2016 haven't even started to hit the league yet. We will know here in about 5+ years just how much he changed the game. In fact, you can already see it, players have increasing confidence to take... and make... logo shots. Hell, LeBron himself didn't even used to do that shit.

Curry's impact is undeniable.

John8204

05-10-2022, 02:04 PM

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DismalPleasedFlea-size_restricted.gif

You need a chip for me to grade you highly as an "MVP"

Naero

05-10-2022, 02:04 PM

Strictly evaluating their regular-season performances in a vacuum (ignoring the playoffs, narrative-driven criteria for the award, and the rest of the awardees' careers):

1. 2013 LeBron

He's peaked higher during some postseasons—amazingly most of them during his thirties—but this was his regular-season apex to me. Superb all-around impact as usual, a serious DPoY-contender, and he burnished his jumpshooting skillset by then. On top of that all, this was perhaps the last time he played full-bore during the regular season in his physical prime—before the LeCoast moniker.

2. 2020 Giannis

Deservedly the MVP and DPoY. His shaky jumpshooting would come back to bite him in the playoffs, but it didn't prevent him from averaging a superefficient 30 PPG in the regular season.

3. 2022 Jokic

He picked up where he left off with his superb 2020-21 averages. What the statsheet doesn't illustrate is how much he's improved defensively, hence he's one of the rare MVPs without HCA-seeding in the standings—and much more efficient than Westbrook, the other anomaly.

4. 2014 Durant

It's where he peaked as a regular-season performer, and he had improved enough defense- and playmaking-wise at that point to no longer be branded as a one-dimensional player. He would've rewritten even more scoring records if this iteration of himself took place after the pace-and-space paradigm shift a few seasons later, which would've inflated his already-league-best PPG.

5. 2016 Curry

While he was deservedly the unanimous MVP, he didn't have the same impact defensively as the above-listed players. Still, it was arguably the best offensive season of all time, and he was at least above-average on the other end during the regular season.

Kblaze8855

05-10-2022, 02:06 PM

Kblaze8855

05-10-2022, 02:08 PM

You need a chip for me to grade you highly as an "MVP"

So winning the title as a declined second option makes him better 5 years ago?

AlternativeAcc.

05-10-2022, 02:09 PM

He has the highest gravity in NBA history. And we have yet to see the fruits of his impact on young players. The kids that were 5 to 10 years old in 2016 haven't even started to hit the league yet. We will know here in about 5+ years just how much he changed the game. In fact, you can already see it, players have increasing confidence to take... and make... logo shots. Hell, LeBron himself didn't even used to do that shit.

Curry's impact is undeniable.

Because what he does is replicatable

If you wanna do what Durant, Giannis, or LeBron do you have to be reincarnated.

I'm not denying he inspired some white kids to shoot 3s and make their high school team, but the question was who were the top 5 of the last 10 years. I'm taking all of those guys over curry. And in the playoffs it's not even remotely close.

Curry is the only guy who wouldn't win a ring on that 2016 warriors team... the other dudes on my list cruise to a title with that 2016 roster

SouBeachTalents

05-10-2022, 02:12 PM

So winning the title as a declined second option makes him better 5 years ago?
Infallible logic :applause:

AlternativeAcc.

05-10-2022, 02:12 PM

The warriors weren’t even close to the deepest team ever. They were an insane top plus role players. And he Absolutely lead the second three-point revolution but I can understand why someone wouldn’t let that factor into how good someone is. Tie doesn’t go to the pioneer or anything.

Every bench ever is full of role players, some teams have the occasional star

They had the best bench in the NBA easily. And one of the best ever

Shogon

05-10-2022, 02:14 PM

Because what he does is replicatable

If you wanna do what Durant, Giannis, or LeBron do you have to be reincarnated.

I'm not denying he inspired some white kids to shoot 3s and make their high school team, but the question was who were the top 5 of the last 10 years. I'm taking all of those guys over curry. And in the playoffs it's not even remotely close.

Curry is the only guy who wouldn't win a ring on that 2016 warriors team... the other dudes on my list cruise to a title with that 2016 roster

I'm not entirely sure you appreciate just how good of a 5 on 5 basketball player Stephen Curry really is.

That's ok, I'm not going to convince you here. That much is clear.

It is what it is.

Look at Trae Young btw... already a wannabe Steph.

AlternativeAcc.

05-10-2022, 02:18 PM

I'm not entirely sure you appreciate just how good of a 5 on 5 basketball player Stephen Curry really is.

That's ok, I'm not going to convince you here. That much is clear.

It is what it is.

Look at Trae Young btw... already a wannabe Steph.

I just don't think having Giannis, LeBron, Durant, and Jokic peaks over his is some kinda hot take

Curry used to be an offensive beast on a stacked team in the regular season. But the other guys were better and had to do much more

3ba11

05-10-2022, 02:28 PM

The people putting LeBron so low or off of their lists clearly don't remember 9 years ago

Here's what we remember about the 13' Finals:

* Lebron averaged 16 on 39% thru 3 games while teammates staved off an 0-3 deficit

* Lebron's 23 on 43% was insufficient thru 6 games and needed Ray Allen to force Game 7

* Lebron averaged 25 on 45% overall with a zero plus-minus and negative net rating - so the Heat didn't win with him on the floor and he wasn't dominant

CONCLUSION: Lebron wasn't dominant in the 13' Finals, so he doesn't compare to 21' Giannis', who was thoroughly dominant (50-piece)

Shogon

05-10-2022, 02:30 PM

Here's what we remember about the 13' Finals:

* Lebron averaged 16 on 39% thru 3 games while teammates staved off an 0-3 deficit

* Lebron's 23 on 43% was insufficient thru 6 games and needed Ray Allen to force Game 7

* Lebron averaged 25 on 45% overall with a zero plus-minus and negative net rating - so the Heat didn't win with him on the floor and he wasn't dominant

CONCLUSION: Lebron wasn't dominant in the 13' Finals, so he doesn't compare to 21' Giannis', who was thoroughly dominant (50-piece)

You need to be banned.

999Guy

05-10-2022, 02:33 PM

Actually imagine believing Durant was ever better than Jokic.

FultzNationRISE

05-10-2022, 02:44 PM

The warriors weren’t even close to the deepest team ever. They were an insane top plus role players. And he Absolutely lead the second three-point revolution but I can understand why someone wouldn’t let that factor into how good someone is. Tie doesn’t go to the pioneer or anything.

Maybe not relative to the 60s when entire rosters made the HOF, but in modern times?

Iggy, Livingston, Barbosa, Bogut, Barnes, Speights, Rush, Ezeli....

Cant think of many teams with that much quality depth.

RogueBorg

05-10-2022, 02:45 PM

Westbrook should be at the top of every Lebron stans list with those sTaTs baby

Truth

John8204

05-10-2022, 02:45 PM

So winning the title as a declined second option makes him better 5 years ago?

Yes...it legitimatizes his statistical accomplishments over the course of time when he put up his numbers.

The worst MVP's are Barkley, Malone, Rose, Westbrook, Nash, Harden, Jokic and Iverson.

ShawkFactory

05-10-2022, 02:51 PM

Phoenix

05-10-2022, 02:55 PM

Yes...it legitimatizes his statistical accomplishments over the course of time when he put up his numbers.

The worst MVP's are Barkley, Malone, Rose, Westbrook, Nash, Harden, Jokic and Iverson.

So.....Harden is one of the worst MVPs according to you. BUT, if he wins the chip this year playing at a level nowhere close to his MVP year, as the decisively 2nd best player on the team....this recontextualizes his MVP season to not be one of the worst?

Kblaze8855

05-10-2022, 02:57 PM

How?

Im reminded of a joke some comedian told about an old Michael Jackson interview. The interviewer was trying to lob a softball to help him out since he was making himself look bad and asked “Michael do you think it’s appropriate for you as a 40 year old man to share your bedroom with a child?”. He looked right at him and said “Yes”.

Some people are just too far gone to help.

SouBeachTalents

05-10-2022, 02:58 PM

Naero

05-10-2022, 02:58 PM

Yes...it legitimatizes his statistical accomplishments over the course of time when he put up his numbers.

The worst MVP's are Barkley, Malone, Rose, Westbrook, Nash, Harden, Jokic and Iverson.

Are you suggesting his 2017-18 season was just empty stats? Because his team was effectively one game away from winning it all that year before Chris Paul went down.

If you need to wait for a clearly inferior version of him to win a championship before deciding his MVP season's legitimacy, it speaks more about your specious results-oriented criteria than it does about Harden's performance that year.

It wouldn't rewrite his MVP season or even give us a new perspective; it'd only shed a rosier light on his prior body of work, as winning it all typically does.

John8204

05-10-2022, 03:04 PM

So.....Harden is one of the worst MVPs according to you. BUT, if he wins the chip this year playing at a level nowhere close to his MVP year, as the decisively 2nd best player on the team....this recontextualizes his MVP season to not be one of the worst?

Harden is always going to be a bad MVP because of his resume but if he wins a ring he'll be higher than the guys that didn't win rings. And yes if you really are an MVP and the best player in the game you should be able to change your game to win a chip...like Bill Walton, Wilt Chamberlain, David Robinson and Bob McAdoo. Less of a re-contextualization and more so a sanctification and justification.

Phoenix

05-10-2022, 03:07 PM

Harden is always going to be a bad MVP because of his resume but if he wins a ring he'll be higher than the guys that didn't win rings. And yes if you really are an MVP and the best player in the game you should be able to change your game to win a chip...like Bill Walton, Wilt Chamberlain, David Robinson and Bob McAdoo. Less of a re-contextualization and more so a sanctification and justification.

Who do you rank higher between Clyde Drexler and Charles Barkley?

By your logic, why isn't 2015 Curry ahead of 2016 Curry? One won a chip, the other didn't.

John8204

05-10-2022, 03:10 PM

Are you suggesting his 2017-18 season was just empty stats? Because his team was effectively one game away from winning it all that year before Chris Paul went down.

If you need to wait for a clearly inferior version of him to win a championship before deciding his MVP season's legitimacy, it speaks more about your specious results-oriented criteria than it does about Harden's performance that year.

It wouldn't rewrite his MVP season or even give us a new perspective; it'd only shed a rosier light on his prior body of work, as winning it all typically does.

And what ended up happening with Harden and Paul? CPIII could have been the MVP that season not Harden...history has proven that Paul was a more valuable player than Harden. You have plenty of metrics to judge an MVP by but if you give an MVP to player that will never win a ring than frankly you made a mistake. It used to 100% you won an MVP you were going to win a title now since 1990 (Barkley) that has dropped to 60% and since Nash we now have "MVP's" that can't even make the finals.

John8204

05-10-2022, 03:14 PM

Who do you rank higher between Clyde Drexler and Charles Barkley?

By your logic, why isn't 2015 Curry ahead of 2016 Curry? One won a chip, the other didn't.

Barkley...but Clyde was never an MVP. Curry won a title and then returned to win 73 games and lost to the man I rank ahead of him...Lebron James.

SouBeachTalents

05-10-2022, 03:19 PM

Too bad Malone got hurt in ‘04, he could’ve really legitimized his MVP’s and moved up the all time rankings with a title.

Phoenix

05-10-2022, 03:20 PM

Barkley...but Clyde was never an MVP. Curry won a title and then returned to win 73 games and lost to the man I rank ahead of him...Lebron James.

He was runner-up.... close enough, but you're sidestepping the obvious point( I suspect intentionally). Clyde winning as a 32 year old 'just past his prime' star as 2nd fiddle to Hakeem is analogous to Harden winning this year as 2nd fiddle to Embiid. It doesn't mean a damn thing for an MVP award he won 5 years ago at a different point in his career, nor does it mean he's any better or worse legacy-wise than he already is. If there's any conclusion to reach, it's that he wasn't good enough to win a title unless there was a player on the team better than him.

Phoenix

05-10-2022, 03:24 PM

Too bad Malone got hurt in ‘04, he could’ve really legitimized his MVP’s and moved up the all time rankings with a title.

I WAS GOING TO MAKE THIS POINT!! Ditto for Barkley, if the 97 Rockets had won the title with him as the 2nd/3rd best player, this completely legitimizes his MVP award from 4 years prior.

Help me understand.

John8204

05-10-2022, 03:57 PM

Too bad Malone got hurt in ‘04, he could’ve really legitimized his MVP’s and moved up the all time rankings with a title.

This is true...he could have also not retired after trying to win a ring on one team.

He was runner-up.... close enough, but you're sidestepping the obvious point( I suspect intentionally). Clyde winning as a 32 year old 'just past his prime' star as 2nd fiddle to Hakeem is analogous to Harden winning this year as 2nd fiddle to Embiid. It doesn't mean a damn thing for an MVP award he won 5 years ago at a different point in his career, nor does it mean he's any better or worse legacy-wise than he already is. If there's any conclusion to reach, it's that he wasn't good enough to win a title unless there was a player on the team better than him.

It's not "close enough" because this is a ranking thread of MVP's not MVP's and guys that are MVP adjacent. I rank Hakeem higher than Barkley and Drexler...if Harden changes his game and wins chips as a #2 that would move him up from where I personally rank him.

I WAS GOING TO MAKE THIS POINT!! Ditto for Barkley, if the 97 Rockets had won the title with him as the 2nd/3rd best player, this completely legitimizes his MVP award from 4 years prior.

Help me understand.

Had Barkley won a ring it helps him...not a lot but his MVP isn't a joke that should have gone to Jordan. Actually the person that won the ring that year was an MVP who did become a second fiddle and people don't bury his MVP.

https://thumb.spokesman.com/k8Q66xrBdj_H2j5lI_V6n_h6DzQ=/2500x2500/smart/media.spokesman.com/photos/2009/09/10/David_Robinson_bio.JPG

Kblaze8855

05-10-2022, 04:13 PM

This is true...he could have also not retired after trying to win a ring on one team.

It's not "close enough" because this is a ranking thread of MVP's not MVP's and guys that are MVP adjacent. I rank Hakeem higher than Barkley and Drexler...if Harden changes his game and wins chips as a #2 that would move him up from where I personally rank him.

Had Barkley won a ring it helps him...not a lot but his MVP isn't a joke that should have gone to Jordan. Actually the person that won the ring that year was an MVP who did become a second fiddle and people don't bury his MVP.

Im telling you….

https://youtu.be/tArmHN4j3qQ

36 second mark is this discussion.

red1

05-10-2022, 04:19 PM

2013

HUGE gap

the rest

red1

05-10-2022, 04:20 PM

lebron
giannis
durant
curry
jokic

John8204

05-10-2022, 04:39 PM

Im telling you….

https://youtu.be/tArmHN4j3qQ

36 second mark is this discussion.

Funny you bring that clip up...because I feel like if Michael Jackson really was guilty he would have had a dozen kids come forward not like three. What we saw with Trump, Watson, Cosby, R Kelly and Weinstein sexual predators are pathological.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiK-RPRqvcE

Phoenix

05-10-2022, 04:41 PM

It's not "close enough" because this is a ranking thread of MVP's not MVP's and guys that are MVP adjacent. I rank Hakeem higher than Barkley and Drexler...if Harden changes his game and wins chips as a #2 that would move him up from where I personally rank him.

Hakeem ranks higher than Barkley and Drexler because he's the best on-court player of the three, and would be even if he didn't win a title. Winning chips merely reinforced the obvious in those cases. It's your call to rank Harden higher if he wins a 2nd option ring, but saying it somehow 180s his MVP season from 5 years ago is nonsense, the two situations are unrelated. Again, if there's a conclusion to reach its that Harden couldn't win as 'the man'. As it is, there are several players this year you could swap out Harden for and have a better chance of winning a title.

But let's play your game a little more. You said Westbrook was one of the worst MVPs. If the Lakers somehow won the title this year with him being the third best player behind Lebron/AD, explain how this somehow legitimizes his 2017 season or bolster him in the career rankings?

AlternativeAcc.

05-10-2022, 04:54 PM

John's take on the surface looks pretty bad, but I sort-of understand the logic, at least from a casual fans perspective. 1 ring can do a lot to shift the narrative. Had Paul won last year, even as a 2nd option, the narrative of him being a loser wouldve been erased. Dirks ring in 2011 gave his career narrative a 180.

If Sixers win, and Harden plays well, it will definitely help his cause and career rankings. When people look back on his MVP year they'll give it more credit, solely because he would have a ring on his resume. This doesn't work for role player rings, only 1st or 2nd option rings. But his narrative would definitely change, and his stats in Houston will glow in a much better light.

SouBeachTalents

05-10-2022, 04:56 PM

Funny you bring that clip up...because I feel like if Michael Jackson really was guilty he would have had a dozen kids come forward not like three. What we saw with Trump, Watson, Cosby, R Kelly and Weinstein sexual predators are pathological.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiK-RPRqvcE
Yeah, only “four” different accusers across 3 decades for a guy who not only hung out with children, but admitted to sleeping in the same bed as them.

I’ve said it before, but if Michael Jackson actually was innocent, he did everything in his power to come across as a pedophile.

Let me guess, you don’t think OJ did it either :lol

John8204

05-10-2022, 05:01 PM

Hakeem ranks higher than Barkley and Drexler because he's the best on-court player of the three, and would be even if he didn't win a title. Winning chips merely reinforced the obvious in those cases. It's your call to rank Harden higher if he wins a 2nd option ring, but saying it somehow 180s his MVP season from 5 years ago is nonsense, the two situations are unrelated. Again, if there's a conclusion to reach its that Harden couldn't win as 'the man'. As it is, there are several players this year you could swap out Harden for and have a better chance of winning a title.

But let's play your game a little more. You said Westbrook was one of the worst MVPs. If the Lakers somehow won the title this year with him being the third best player behind Lebron/AD, explain how this somehow legitimizes his 2017 season or bolster him in the career rankings?

Russ winning a chip would be massive for him. His resume right now is that as a PG he failed with Harden, Beal, Durant, and Lebron winning a ring negates his "advanced stats". This isn't unprecedented two guys that I rank in my top ten over Westbrook Oscar Robertson won the MVP in 64...needed Kareem to win a ring in 71. Jason Kidd won a ring in Dallas and that ring personally ranks him ahead in my eyes of guys like Nash and Westbrook. Russ and Nash played with the best players of their generations and they did not win rings...that hurts their legacy and really keeps both guys out of my top ten for their position.

I'm not like most of you...who are prisoners of the moment and only think of and talk about the game that you saw play. I'm not that arrogant to just write off decades of NBA history based on what you see in single season. I'm not that guy...it's not the sort of fan that I am.

post

05-10-2022, 05:03 PM

2020 giannis
2019 giannis
2022 jokic
2013 lebron
2021 jokic

John8204

05-10-2022, 05:12 PM

Yeah, only “four” different accusers across 3 decades for a guy who not only hung out with children, but admitted to sleeping in the same bed as them.

I’ve said it before, but if Michael Jackson actually was innocent, he did everything in his power to come across as a pedophile.

Let me guess, you don’t think OJ did it either :lol

OJ lost a trial...MJ never did half of them waiting until after he died to come forward...and made money off of it. Half of his "victims" saw what was happening and chose to stay silent, you had no physical evidence or corroborating evidence against Jackson. The thing that finally turned me on Jackson being innocent was the Jimmy Savile case...which was basically the creepy eccentric weirdo in the UK.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JV8khm4s9j4

Phoenix

05-10-2022, 05:14 PM

Russ winning a chip would be massive for him. His resume right now is that as a PG he failed with Harden, Beal, Durant, and Lebron winning a ring negates his "advanced stats". This isn't unprecedented two guys that I rank in my top ten over Westbrook Oscar Robertson won the MVP in 64...needed Kareem to win a ring in 71. Jason Kidd won a ring in Dallas and that ring personally ranks him ahead in my eyes of guys like Nash and Westbrook. Russ and Nash played with the best players of their generations and they did not win rings...that hurts their legacy and really keeps both guys out of my top ten for their position.

I'm not like most of you...who are prisoners of the moment and only think of and talk about the game that you saw play. I'm not that arrogant to just write off decades of NBA history based on what you see in single season. I'm not that guy...it's not the sort of fan that I am.

Russell winning a title this year as the 3rd best player doesn't suddenly turn him from being a career loser to winner. By your own metrics, he played with some of the best players of his era and failed to win ( when he himself was a better version of what he is now). The lions share of credit would go to Lebron and AD, rightfully so, and Westbrook's legacy will be of one who couldn't win as either the best or 2nd best player, and rode the coattails of much better players. Any number of players currently in the league could do that, and better than Russ at this point in his career. As far as Kidd, him being ranked higher than Nash is a reasonable take, but winning a ring as a 38 year old role player is far down on the list of reasons why. Hell, how much credit are giving to Gary Payton for his 2006 ring?

Nobody is writing off decades of NBA history here. I would reasonably assume everyone in this thread was watching the NBA 5 years ago when Harden won the MVP.

Stephonit

05-10-2022, 05:30 PM

Curry's top 5 MVP years.

Stephonit

05-10-2022, 05:43 PM

Maybe not relative to the 60s when entire rosters made the HOF, but in modern times?

Iggy, Livingston, Barbosa, Bogut, Barnes, Speights, Rush, Ezeli....

Cant think of many teams with that much quality depth.

Speights, Rush and Ezeli are quality depth?

:roll:

Talk about grasping at straws.

Imagine asking a basketball newbie in 2050 to compare these two supporting casts and ask which was better:

Klay Thompson, Draymond Green, Harrison Barnes, Andre Iguodala

vs.

Anthony Davis, Russell Westbrook, Dwight Howard, Carmelo Anthony

8Ball

05-10-2022, 05:55 PM

Steph 2016 reg season is the GOAT regular season in my opinion.

But his post season wasn't as great.

2013 LeBron was just a monster.

2019 Giannis.

2014 Durant

Jokic

FultzNationRISE

05-10-2022, 06:00 PM

Speights, Rush and Ezeli are quality depth?

:roll:

Talk about grasping at straws.

Imagine asking a basketball newbie in 2050 to compare these two supporting casts and ask which was better:

Klay Thompson, Draymond Green, Harrison Barnes, Andre Iguodala

vs.

Anthony Davis, Russell Westbrook, Dwight Howard, Carmelo Anthony

I was specifically talking about the benches, thats why I didnt even list Thompson and Green. For how far down the depth chart Speights, Rush and Ezeli were, they were quality contributors.

Also people in 2050 will have no context for how historically bad Westbrook was this year and how much time Davis missed. Youre pushing an absurd stawman.

Youre so obsessed with glorifying a guy you cant have a rational discussion?

John8204

05-10-2022, 06:00 PM

Russell winning a title this year as the 3rd best player doesn't suddenly turn him from being a career loser to winner. By your own metrics, he played with some of the best players of his era and failed to win ( when he himself was a better version of what he is now). The lions share of credit would go to Lebron and AD, rightfully so, and Westbrook's legacy will be of one who couldn't win as either the best or 2nd best player, and rode the coattails of much better players. Any number of players currently in the league could do that, and better than Russ at this point in his career. As far as Kidd, him being ranked higher than Nash is a reasonable take, but winning a ring as a 38 year old role player is far down on the list of reasons why. Hell, how much credit are giving to Gary Payton for his 2006 ring?

Nobody is writing off decades of NBA history here. I would reasonably assume everyone in this thread was watching the NBA 5 years ago when Harden won the MVP.

Jason Kidd put up roughly the same numbers in Dallas that he did throughout his career. He's someone who likely should have gotten an MVP when he took both Nets teams to the finals in back to back years.

As for Gary Payton...he's one of those players that I would easily rank ahead of Westbrook. Yeah you could say he won a ring as a bench player but he also made the finals with two other teams and he made his teams better everywhere he went. Gary Payton always had a place in the NBA...I'm not sure if Russ is going to get retired when his contract is up. If Russ did win a ring he would get a little bit of a boost. Tiny Archibald is another guy who had he not won a ring I would rank Russ over him...but the ring validated the season where Tiny lead the league in points and assists. They didn't give him an MVP that year because of ethics in voting.

Phoenix

05-10-2022, 06:06 PM

Jason Kidd put up roughly the same numbers in Dallas that he did throughout his career. He's someone who likely should have gotten an MVP when he took both Nets teams to the finals in back to back years.

As for Gary Payton...he's one of those players that I would easily rank ahead of Westbrook. Yeah you could say he won a ring as a bench player but he also made the finals with two other teams and he made his teams better everywhere he went. Gary Payton always had a place in the NBA...I'm not sure if Russ is going to get retired when his contract is up. If Russ did win a ring he would get a little bit of a boost. Tiny Archibald is another guy who had he not won a ring I would rank Russ over him...but the ring validated the season where Tiny lead the league in points and assists. They didn't give him an MVP that year because of ethics in voting.

As would I. Better two way player easily, and his overall body of work tells me his style was much more conducive to winning( not that he did in his prime, but he lost to a better player and team. I don't hold conditions like that against anyone). But all you're saying isn't really addressing the core of my point, nobody gives Payton any credit for his ring in 2006, at least in terms of his legacy. I'd go as far as to say alot of casual fans wouldn't even remember him on that Heat team. The same way alot of people wouldn't remember that someone like Mitch Richmond has a ring.

Anyways I don't agree with your base premise that winning a title in a reduced role validates an MVP season from X amount of years prior, so we're pretty much going in circles on that point and not really much more to say other than agree to disagree. Unless we get a scenario where the Sixers win with Harden playing a strong number 2 it's kind of arguing about nothing at this point. He has a legacy of falling short in previous years when he was alot better than he currently is, so ALOT of things need to go right for the Sixers to win this year, like key injuries to stars on better teams and Harden miraculously playing like it's 2019.

Kblaze8855

05-10-2022, 06:10 PM

. Imagine asking a basketball newbie in 2050 to compare these two supporting casts and ask which was better:

Funny you think asking people with no memory of these teams…or knowledge of their age(and injuries) which is better is a good point.

John8204

05-10-2022, 06:25 PM

As would I. Better two way player easily, and his overall body of work tells me his style was much more conducive to winning( not that he did in his prime, but he lost to a better player and team. I don't hold conditions like that against anyone). But all you're saying isn't really addressing the core of my point, nobody gives Payton any credit for his ring in 2006, at least in terms of his legacy. I'd go as far as to say alot of casual fans wouldn't even remember him on that Heat team. The same way alot of people wouldn't remember that someone like Mitch Richmond has a ring.

Anyways I don't agree with your base premise that winning a title in a reduced role validates an MVP season from X amount of years prior, so we're pretty much going in circles on that point and not really much more to say other than agree to disagree. Unless we get a scenario where the Sixers win with Harden playing a strong number 2 it's kind of arguing about nothing at this point. He has a legacy of falling short in previous years when he was alot better than he currently is, so ALOT of things need to go right for the Sixers to win this year, like key injuries to stars on better teams and Harden miraculously playing like it's 2019.

Yeah it's just differences of opinions...I'm personally not a fan of going by a single seasonal metric. You win an MVP we then look at your legacy because guys win based upon not who the best player is that season but other circumstances. History has a habit of proving who was right and who was wrong. People don't bring up Gary's ring, but Gary had a lot of things you could bring up..how he did with the Bucks, making the finals against Jordan being a guard and winning DPOY. It's not like hey Gary had that one great season and then he became the NBA's albatross.

ShawkFactory

05-10-2022, 06:27 PM

Stephonit

05-10-2022, 06:38 PM

Funny you think asking people with no memory of these teams…or knowledge of their age(and injuries) which is better is a good point.

Was gonna type something up but this pretty much encapsulates perfectly what I was going to say.

So stupid.

I could just as easily refer to the takes at the start of this season when the Lakers were considered championship favorites by many. It's not as if age and injury concerns weren't obvious but they were still favorites. The point being if you don't how it all turned out one can easily have been misled as to what the result would be given their built up reputations.

Curry's teams are being called great only after-the-fact of their victory.

ShawkFactory

05-10-2022, 06:42 PM

I could just as easily refer to the takes at the start of this season when the Lakers were considered championship favorites by many. It's not as if age and injury concerns weren't obvious but they were still favorites. The point being if you don't how it all turned out one can easily have been misled as to what the result would be given their built up reputations.

Curry's teams are being called great only after-the-fact of their victory.

Ok but that doesn't actually have anything to do with basketball.

Kblaze8855

05-10-2022, 06:44 PM

NBAGOAT

05-10-2022, 07:07 PM

13 lebron
16 curry
20 giannis
22 jokic
18 harden.

lebron is clearly 1 and curry clearly 2 I think. The impact is just dominant and showed up in team results too. yes i'm going out on a limb and disrespecting durant but I think harden was that good in 2018. Rockets were talented but not a super team and were the best team to not win a title imo(besides a team that won a title the year before or after with the same core).

ralph_i_el

05-10-2022, 08:42 PM

LeBron
Durant
Curry
Jokic
Giannis

Stephonit

05-10-2022, 09:38 PM

If people weren’t saying the lakers were too old, injured, and past their primes to win we wouldn’t have seen a year of “Keep that same energy” memes on Lebron complaining about the predictions of failure.

If people didn't expect them to win we wouldn't see them having the second best betting odds at the start of the season.

FultzNationRISE

05-10-2022, 09:43 PM

If people didn't expect them to win we wouldn't see them having the second best betting odds at the start of the season.

Thats because the Lakers and Lebron James are big brands, and a lot of casuals bet on them because of it.

Betting lines arent intended to be a logical prediction of the season’s outcome :hammerhead:

Shooter

05-10-2022, 10:33 PM

2013 - Lebron
2016 - Curry
2020 - Giannis
2014 - Durant
2015 - Curry (if Harden wins a chip this year I'll put him at 5)

This

All other lists are wrong.

Shooter

05-10-2022, 10:33 PM

Thats because the Lakers and Lebron James are big brands, and a lot of casuals bet on them because of it.

Betting lines arent intended to be a logical prediction of the season’s outcome :hammerhead:

He's a slow fella, aint he?

kawhileonard2

05-10-2022, 11:59 PM

2013 - Lebron
2016 - Curry
2020 - Giannis
2014 - Durant
2015 - Curry (if Harden wins a chip this year I'll put him at 5)

All these guys did this for the teams that drafted them when the teams were trash. Lebron switched teams and joined a proven champion.

TheGoatest

05-11-2022, 12:05 AM

1. 2013 LeBron
2. 2012 LeBron
3. 2016 Curry
4. 2020 Giannis
5. 2014 Durant

hold this L

05-11-2022, 12:10 AM

Anyone that doesn't have 2016 at the top is on something. Greatest MVP season ever, 73 wins.

John8204

05-11-2022, 12:26 AM

All these guys did this for the teams that drafted them when the teams were trash. Lebron switched teams and joined a proven champion.

Who is better

Kyrie or Kawhi
Bennett or Giannis
Wiggins or Embiid

Miami, Golden State, Milwaukee, and OKC have great front offices...Lebron is the GM because of need not want.

kawhileonard2

05-11-2022, 12:36 AM

Who is better

Kyrie or Kawhi
Bennett or Giannis
Wiggins or Embiid

Miami, Golden State, Milwaukee, and OKC have great front offices...Lebron is the GM because of need not want.

Lebron had Shaq and lost in round 2. Lebron had peak Westbrook and missed the playoffs. Lebron had peak Duncan and won bronze medal. Need I say more?

John8204

05-11-2022, 12:44 AM

Lebron had Shaq and lost in round 2. Lebron had peak Westbrook and missed the playoffs. Lebron had peak Duncan and won bronze medal. Need I say more?

1. He got a bronze medal when he was a teenager
2. Shaq is an overrated hack and Fraud...the man failed to win with 4 MVP's (Lebron, Malone, Nash, and Garnett) how was Wade, Love, Kyrie, Davis and Boshes MVP seasons compare.
3. "peak" Westbrook doesn't seem to be good enough to get any starting job in the NBA right

kawhileonard2

05-11-2022, 12:52 AM

1. He got a bronze medal when he was a teenager
2. Shaq is an overrated hack and Fraud...the man failed to win with 4 MVP's (Lebron, Malone, Nash, and Garnett) how was Wade, Love, Kyrie, Davis and Boshes MVP seasons compare.
3. "peak" Westbrook doesn't seem to be good enough to get any starting job in the NBA right

1. He got bronze medal twice and with peak Duncan/Iverson
2. Shaq has 3 finals mvp's and a league mvp.
3. Westbrook won league mvp and got triple doubles 4 years in a row.