Kevin Durant lays out his means of determining the leagues best player.

[Kblaze8855]

https://www.hostpic.org/images/2205170336140327.jpeg

[John_Connor]

size for position - boris diaw

shot making - boris diaw

officiency - boris diaw

being able to guard multiple positions - boris diaw

a willing passer - boris diaw

coachable - boris diaw

energetic - boris diaw


but seriously...

best player = luka because hes unguardable and doesn't shrink under pressure and is willing to learn and be coached, take criticism and work on playing off the ball/give more effort on defense and be called out by his coach. make nobodies look like allstars and put guys in their right positions to score. giannis is close but until he learns how to use a pick and stops thinking he can just run full speed down the court for a spin move ever time hes gonna be predictable and lose to better teams while luka beats better teams with less help. jokic is amazing too but he can't initiate. he needs others to get him the ball inside. embiid is soft and nobody else is even close to these guys including durant who is past his prime

[GOBB]

size for position - boris diaw

shot making - boris diaw

officiency - boris diaw

being able to guard multiple positions - boris diaw

a willing passer - boris diaw

coachable - boris diaw

energetic - boris diaw


but seriously...

best player = luka because hes unguardable and doesn't shrink under pressure and is willing to learn and be coached, take criticism and work on playing off the ball/give more effort on defense and be called out by his coach. make nobodies look like allstars and put guys in their right positions to score. giannis is close but until he learns how to use a pick and stops thinking he can just run full speed down the court for a spin move ever time hes gonna be predictable and lose to better teams while luka beats better teams with less help. jokic is amazing too but he can't initiate. he needs others to get him the ball inside. embiid is soft and nobody else is even close to these guys including durant who is past his prime

Luka? No. Jokic, Giannis, Embiid for starters

[Kawhi_Why_Not]

Tatum checks all those boxes. Besides maybe energetic, that's a role player trait.

Luka does most of them. I'm not sold completely on his defense but he has held his own this year and is 6"8 with great size/strength.


Energetic was an interesting one. I don't view kawhi, Kareem or Duncan as energetic. I don't really view Durant as energetic either.

[John_Connor]

Luka? No. Jokic, Giannis, Embiid for starters

no not even close because bigs can't initiate anything. they're entirely dependent on other guys getting them the ball in their spots. they can't bring it up the court and when one of them tries he fails miserably against any real defense


its like shaq without another great scorer/playmaker/ball handler... hes not nearly as great. all luka needs to win is an above average sidekick and some shooters.


giannis needs middleton. embiid needs a harden or simmons type to carry him when hes shitting the bed. jokic needs murray.


all luka needs is brunson.. thats a way bigger drop off in talent. luka could very well win the title with him as his 2nd guy. that would be 94 hakeem shit

[John_Connor]

Tatum checks all those boxes. Besides maybe energetic, that's a role player trait.

Luka does most of them. I'm not sold completely on his defense but he has held his own this year and is 6"8 with great size/strength.


Energetic was an interesting one. I don't view kawhi, Kareem or Duncan as energetic. I don't really view Durant as energetic either.

tatums up there but he doesn't have enough dog in him sometimes. like at the end of one game when marcus smart had the ball instead of him on multiple key possessions. luka wouldn't allow that shit to take place


tatum needs more balls. he shows up big at times but other times he loses control of the team and gets shook when he misses a few

[GOBB]

Tatum checks all those boxes. Besides maybe energetic, that's a role player trait.

Luka does most of them. I'm not sold completely on his defense but he has held his own this year and is 6"8 with great size/strength.


Energetic was an interesting one. I don't view kawhi, Kareem or Duncan as energetic. I don't really view Durant as energetic either.

What does energetic mean you too? That may solve why you don’t label them as such. You may want to edit your definition

[Kblaze8855]

When you have 3 40 something games in the finals including dropping 50/15 to win the ring there is no more to say about what you need to do. At that point it’s just a matter of how your resume looks when it’s over because you’ve already done the only thing anyone can ask. Mvp, DPOY, finals mvp….you’re done. All that’s left is to count at the end not ask questions about what your style can accomplish.

He’s just where you settle in and realize everyone to enter the league in the last 60 years spent the majority of their career losing and nobody will be an exception. Anybody looking to be a hater can settle in with the argument that literally anybody is flawed and is going to lose and they will be right far more often than they are wrong.

Giannis is on the other side now though. Everything is proven. Now it’s the normal ups and downs. Haters will make the downs out to matter more than they do because that’s their job but really? Nothing left to prove. Just detractors who find fault in everything just for hatings sake. And you can’t worry about those people.

You can’t out great haters. Nobody ever did.

[GOBB]

no not even close because bigs can't initiate anything. they're entirely dependent on other guys getting them the ball in their spots. they can't bring it up the court and when one of them tries he fails miserably against any real defense


its like shaq without another great scorer/playmaker/ball handler... hes not nearly as great. all luka needs to win is an above average sidekick and some shooters.


giannis needs middleton. embiid needs a harden or simmons type to carry him when hes shitting the bed. jokic needs murray.


all luka needs is brunson.. thats a way bigger drop off in talent. luka could very well win the title with him as his 2nd guy. that would be 94 hakeem shit

I’m going to skip over the nonsense at the beginning of your post just to remind you. Luka has been eliminated 2 straight seasons in the first rd. Dallas was 2-1 in first rd without Luka (injury). Let’s stop with Luka doesnt need or only needs Jalen Brunson.

[John_Connor]

When you have 3 40 something games in the finals including dropping 50/15 to win the ring there is no more to say about what you need to do. At that point it’s just a matter of how your resume looks when it’s over because you’ve already done the only thing anyone can ask. Mvp, DPOY, finals mvp….you’re done. All that’s left is to count at the end not ask questions about what your style can accomplish.

He’s just where you settle in and realize everyone to enter the league in the last 60 years spent the majority of their career losing and nobody will be an exception. Anybody looking to be a hater can settle in with the argument that literally anybody is flawed and is going to lose and they will be right far more often than they are wrong.

Giannis is on the other side now though. Everything is proven. Now it’s the normal ups and downs. Haters will make the downs out to matter more than they do because that’s they’re job but really? Nothing left to prove. Just detractors who find fault in everything just for hearings sake. And you can’t worry about those people.

You can’t put great haters. Nobody ever did.

giannis still has a ton to prove. his team made the finals without him and he only dominated cause the suns did single coverage and had no adjustments. he was able to spam his one dimensional moves all series. hes actually not that reliable. his stats are great but he doesn't look to make others better. he gets assists sometimes by accident. he goes 1 on 1 too much when he has a very limited move set. he never uses picks/screens or lets another guy get him easy looks. he could be the guy screening for someone and rolling to the basket or doing a luka high screen and kick. but he always does that basic top of the key go right spin move. a ton of his points come from just putting his head down and getting layups. its not smart basketball and when he slows down over time he will be a liability. lebron slowed down and became a solid open three point shooter. plus he has a better handle than giannis. he also looks to pass more. giannis really hasnt shown yet that he's an intelligent player. hes getting by just on pure goat level athleticism and build like a young wilt/lebron mix

[FultzNationRISE]

size for position - boris diaw

shot making - boris diaw

officiency - boris diaw

being able to guard multiple positions - boris diaw

a willing passer - boris diaw

coachable - boris diaw

energetic - boris diaw



Diaw did have serious game, he could have had a much more distinguished career if he’d wanted to. Just didnt seem to be all that competitive.

[John_Connor]

I’m going to skip over the nonsense at the beginning of your post just to remind you. Luka has been eliminated 2 straight seasons in the first rd. Dallas was 2-1 in first rd without Luka (injury). Let’s stop with Luka doesnt need or only needs Jalen Brunson.

because he didn't have a basic above average sidekick. he had a negative player in porzingis whos just a black hole that isn't even that great. he never had another creator to take pressure off him before. he always played well in the playoffs and elimination games so its not on him. he finally has a basic amount of help. imagine when he gets another legit allstar sidekick that compliments him well. like a brunson/dinwiddie that doesn't go cold every other game. then he would literally be unstoppable.

and i'm not gonna lie. luka had a ton of help when he was out with injury. but thats no different than what giannis had last year. and that came in the eastern finals. not the first round

[GOBB]

How do you say Giannis still has a ton to prove and talk up Luka? Fans got to start taking cold showers after big games. Calm down

[John_Connor]

How do you say Giannis still has a ton to prove and talk up Luka? Fans got to start taking cold showers after big games. Calm down

because of the eye test. lukas shown he has a polished game offensively. if we're talking all time rankings and accomplishments sure giannis is ahead but if we're talking straight basketball ability and who i would want going forward as my franchise player its luka because hes shown he knows more about how to run an offense. he can score from anywhere and is unguardable. giannis can easily be stopped by building a wall. he needs a guy like middleton to bail him out when he can't get to the rim. luka doesn't need anyone to bail him out. just someone to fill in when hes resting

[John_Connor]

giannis should be more of a #2... like an amare stoudemire #2 who gets the most points while the real leader is a playmaking point guard that can run an offense and get giannis easy looks. he has tunnel vision. its the worst thing to have for a guy that handles the ball... he makes up his mind on what hes gonna do and will literally kill himself or the other person trying to finish. which is why he had the most offensive fouls in playoff history or tied dwight howards 2009 run to the finals and giannis did it in only 2 rounds

[Kawhi_Why_Not]

giannis should be more of a #2... like an amare stoudemire #2 who gets the most points while the real leader is a playmaking point guard that can run an offense and get giannis easy looks. he has tunnel vision. its the worst thing to have for a guy that handles the ball... he makes up his mind on what hes gonna do and will literally kill himself or the other person trying to finish. which is why he had the most offensive fouls in playoff history or tied dwight howards 2009 run to the finals and giannis did it in only 2 rounds

It's a guard\wing mans game these days. As you can see:


Among the conference finalists, Maxi Kleber is the only player listed at or taller than 6-foot-10 who has averaged over 25 minutes per game in the playoffs.

[Kblaze8855]

. giannis still has a ton to prove.


Nothing. At all. Absolutely nothing. Just haters proving what we all know. That hate doesn’t care about results.

The 3 most hated on players here combine for 15 rings. Is what it is.

[SouBeachTalents]

no not even close because bigs can't initiate anything. they're entirely dependent on other guys getting them the ball in their spots. they can't bring it up the court and when one of them tries he fails miserably against any real defense

luka could very well win the title with him as his 2nd guy. that would be 94 hakeem shit
Said without the least bit of awareness or irony :lol

Also ironic that of the biggest carry jobs in league history, they were all done by bigs (Hakeem, Duncan in '03, Dirk)

[SouBeachTalents]

Nothing. At all. Absolutely nothing. Just haters proving what we all know. That hate doesn’t care about results.

The 3 most hated on players here combine for 15 rings. Is what it is.
I'm sure you'll disagree, but if Giannis were to theoretically win just one title, it'd be hard to ignore the plethora of injuries that took place during that postseason. Yes, injuries happen virtually every postseason, esp over the last few years, but the shit that took place last year was truly unprecedented.

I don't disagree at all that Giannis' status as an ATG is already set, but if he doesn't win another title, it doesn't change the result or take away his title, which is all that matters in the end, but imo it'd be hard to ignore that aspect of his championship completely.

[NBAGOAT]

I'm sure you'll disagree, but if Giannis were to theoretically win just one title, it'd be hard to ignore the plethora of injuries that took place during that postseason. Yes, injuries happen virtually every postseason, esp over the last few years, but the shit that took place last year was truly unprecedented.

I don't disagree at all that Giannis' status as an ATG is already set, but if he doesn't win another title, it doesn't change the result or take away his title, which is all that matters in the end, but imo it'd be hard to ignore that aspect of his championship completely.

yes but he doesnt have an an all tiem great team around him either and his play was still incredible put up something like 30/13/5. Also the nets on paper were on the high end of superteams when healthy, you need a superteam of your own to beat them imo.

[Kblaze8855]

No harder than it is to ignore literally every injury in history which we seem to do just fine. They hang on in talks for maybe 3-5 years max. And then nobody even remembers the Pistons won a ring in a season Bird and Magic both went down to injury. Nobody is gonna remember Giannis leg looking like a hard shell taco either.

Shit only matters in that way we always make recent things out to be significant. You don’t know or care who was out for the 1983 playoffs. It’s trivia in the end. Like Holiday, Conley, and Kyrie all missing games on the warriors 15 run. I know it happened. It means little or nothing on the subject of Steph.

[SouBeachTalents]

yes but he doesnt have an an all tiem great team around him either and his play was still incredible put up something like 30/13/5. Also the nets on paper were on the high end of superteams when healthy, you need a superteam of your own to beat them imo.
I wouldn't call them a superteam but he has a talented supporting cast. Middleton & Jrue are really good 2nd & 3rd options and he has some solid role players as well. But I agree, the injuries don't take away from his actual performance which was ATG.

[Shogon]

The ultimate enlightenment for this discussion is to recognize, understand and accept that there might not even be a genuine way to define 'best' and even if there is, there is certainly no way to quantifiably and definitively prove such a thing.

The rest of it is just entertainment. Anyone who says otherwise hasn't thought this topic through long enough.

[FultzNationRISE]

The ultimate enlightenment for this discussion is to recognize, understand and accept that there might not even be a genuine way to define 'best' and even if there is, there is certainly no way to quantifiably and definitively prove such a thing.

The rest of it is just entertainment. Anyone who says otherwise hasn't thought this topic through long enough.


This is simply not true because if a guy's game, leadership, activism, parenting, philanthropy, business smarts, and lovemaking just hit different to such an extent that it's recognized by consensus among all fans across the world, then it's clear that he is objectively the LeGOAT.

[NBAGOAT]

I wouldn't call them a superteam but he has a talented supporting cast. Middleton & Jrue are really good 2nd & 3rd options and he has some solid role players as well. But I agree, the injuries don't take away from his actual performance which was ATG.

I would say talented but not to be expected to be a dynasty or the clear favorite every year. also you dont necessarily need a superteam to be expected to be a dynasty if depth is good enough and it's the right era(no superteams). Like the spurs big 3 in duncan, parker, ginobili imo was better and they really won 2 titles where it was them leading the team.

[Kblaze8855]

I’d say the way to go is to find the line under which nobody can be the best player. So not a pick for who it is but a list of who it isn’t. Like I’d be ok with someone saying it’s Giannis, KD, Steph, Jokic, Embiid, or Luka. Or toss Lebron in there or AD. I mean for you personally not my list. I want peoples “It’s one of these guys” list more than a single one who almost always requires a different reason depending on who he’s being compared to.

Most “I just know who it isn’t” lists I can probably get behind.

[NBAGOAT]

I’d say the way to go is to find the line under which nobody can be the best player. So not a pick for who it is but a list of who it isn’t. Like I’d be ok with someone saying it’s Giannis, KD, Steph, Jokic, Embiid, or Luka. Or toss Lebron in there or AD. I mean for you personally not my list. I want peoples “It’s one of these guys” list more than a single one who almost always requires a different reason depending on who he’s being compared to.

Most “I just know who it isn’t” lists I can probably get behind.

honestly tatum most likely. He can maybe change that with 2 really good series

[tontoz]

I wish Giannis would stop shooting 3s ffs but yeah his resume is pretty strong for a guy who is only 27. Assuming he stays healthy his stat totals will be huge as will his All NBA team totals. 2 MVPs, DPOY, FMVP he checks all the boxes.

If Middleton doesn't get hurt he had a legit shot at a ring this year. Just a relentless player always trying to improve.

His foul shooting in the playoffs was up almost 10% compared to last year. He changed his routine so people were no longer counting when he is standing at the line.

[Kblaze8855]

honestly tatum most likely. He can maybe change that with 2 really good series


If you wanted to take all the all nba players and make a “I know who it ain’t….” list I’d accept him not being on it. The “Definitely not the best” list of like 400 guys I mean.

[tpols]

Nothing. At all. Absolutely nothing. Just haters proving what we all know. That hate doesn’t care about results.

The 3 most hated on players here combine for 15 rings. Is what it is.

The Bucks literally won the ECFs without Giannis. He faced a bunch of injured teams in every round and then capped it off against a suns team that just lost by 45 points at home in a Game 7.

Certain titles are worth more than others. Dirks 2011 title is held in incredible esteem. People clown Durants titles. Context matters. Just because you don't want to discuss it doesn't mean much.

[FultzNationRISE]

I’d say the way to go is to find the line under which nobody can be the best player. So not a pick for who it is but a list of who it isn’t. Like I’d be ok with someone saying it’s Giannis, KD, Steph, Jokic, Embiid, or Luka. Or toss Lebron in there or AD. I mean for you personally not my list. I want peoples “It’s one of these guys” list more than a single one who almost always requires a different reason depending on who he’s being compared to.

Most “I just know who it isn’t” lists I can probably get behind.

Why not for your list bro?

You think youre too good to respect Lebron the way he deserves to be respected? Do you think you're above that?

What's up?

[SouBeachTalents]

The Bucks literally won the ECFs without Giannis. He faced a bunch of injured teams in every round and then capped it off against a suns team that just lost by 45 points at home in a Game 7.

Certain titles are worth more than others. Dirks 2011 title is held in incredible esteem. People clown Durants titles. Context matters. Just because you don't want to discuss it doesn't mean much.
I'm more willing to forgive a title that can be deemed as "asterisked" if the player in question has other ones. Don't like the bubble ring? LeBron still has 3 of them. Think Shaq & Kobe's '02 title is invalid? They still have several more of them. That's why KD left an almost guaranteed title every season on the table in Golden State, he could've ended up with a Jordan like amount, but he knew he was never going to get the credit he thought he deserved for them.

That's why I actually agree with you on this. And for the record, I don't asterisk titles, but if Giannis never wins another one, all those injuries the Bucks benefited from will remain a big aspect of that championships legacy, fair or not.

[NBAGOAT]

If you wanted to take all the all nba players and make a “I know who it ain’t….” list I’d accept him not being on it. The “Definitely not the best” list of like 400 guys I mean.

Yea should’ve been more clear, think he’s the cutoff point

[Kblaze8855]

The Bucks literally won the ECFs without Giannis. He faced a bunch of injured teams in every round and then capped it off against a suns team that just lost by 45 points at home in a Game 7.

Certain titles are worth more than others. Dirks 2011 title is held in incredible esteem. People clown Durants titles. Context matters. Just because you don't want to discuss it doesn't mean much.


The bucks “literally” beat a Hawks team who’s best player made 4 shots the last 3 games because he got injured mid series and missed 2 and played hurt in 1. Also doesn’t matter.

And no…the weight you personally give titles also means nothing. In the end Dirk and Hakeem are right where the number of rings they have generally gets you ranked along with other accolades. All that talk about 2011 or 94 being worth ___ rings obviously doesn’t matter because if Dirk had ____ rings and not one he would be ranked top 10ish and not top 20ish and if Hakeem had 4 he’d be top 5-6ish not fringe top 10.

Its just empty internet talk.

Absolutely nothing Giannis does from today on will prove anything a 50 burger with cheese to win the ring didn’t. This is nothing but version 65 of me saying and being right about someone doing what their haters say they can’t only forcing haters to move the goal posts not to stop hating.

Whatever he does you are going to act like it’s not enough for you to be wrong. Like I said our most hated people here have 15 combined rings in all manner of situations.

Nothing quiets someone who decided to be a dick. That’s just sports.

[ralph_i_el]

giannis still has a ton to prove. his team made the finals without him and he only dominated cause the suns did single coverage and had no adjustments. he was able to spam his one dimensional moves all series. hes actually not that reliable. his stats are great but he doesn't look to make others better. he gets assists sometimes by accident. he goes 1 on 1 too much when he has a very limited move set. he never uses picks/screens or lets another guy get him easy looks. he could be the guy screening for someone and rolling to the basket or doing a luka high screen and kick. but he always does that basic top of the key go right spin move. a ton of his points come from just putting his head down and getting layups. its not smart basketball and when he slows down over time he will be a liability. lebron slowed down and became a solid open three point shooter. plus he has a better handle than giannis. he also looks to pass more. giannis really hasnt shown yet that he's an intelligent player. hes getting by just on pure goat level athleticism and build like a young wilt/lebron mix

Even with all this being true, it doesn't even matter. He has shown that he can just morph into an elite PnR roll man, or play straight up post basketball against the many mismatches he sees. I used to criticize him a lot for the "one dimensional" bully driving stuff. It could get shut down by really well equipped and physical teams, and didn't translate as well to games where more physicality was allowed (playoffs, FIBA).

His finals run proved that his game is more than that. He's top tier and has an argument over anyone playing right now. Off-ball play is valuable in different ways than that of lead ballhandlers. Being able to provide rim defense and play at the 5 against small-ball has a huge impact. He has gravity at a lot of spots on the floor, pulling tons of defensive attention and opening up the game for his guards.

[Shooter]

So LeBron. Nice.

[John_Connor]

Said without the least bit of awareness or irony :lol

Also ironic that of the biggest carry jobs in league history, they were all done by bigs (Hakeem, Duncan in '03, Dirk)

Hakeem played in a big man era where back down post moves were extremely valuable and he controlled the paint on defense. that type of player is pretty much obsolete now on both ends. now it's all about perimeter guys. there's no irony.



finals mvps since 2006

2006 - wade ( perimeter slasher/ mid range
2007 - dirk (perimeter mid range/ 3 point )
2008 - pierce (perimeter shooter/scorer )
2009 - kobe ( perimeter shooter/slasher )
2010 - kobe ( perimeter shooter/slasher )
2011 - dirk (perimeter mid range/ 3 point )
2012 - lebron ( perimeter playmaker/slasher )
2013 - lebron ( perimeter playmaker/slasher )
2014 - kawhi ( perimeter scorer/defender )
2015 - iguodala ( perimeter scorer/defender )
2016 - lebron ( perimeter playmaker/slasher )
2017 - durant ( perimeter shooter/slasher )
2018 - durant ( perimeter shooter/slasher )
2019 - kawhi ( perimeter shooter/slasher )
2020 - lebron ( perimeter playmaker/slasher )
2021 - giannis ( perimeter slasher/defender )


Duncan in 2005 was the last finals mvp who's primary weapons were a back down post moves and most people say he stole the finals mvp from ginobili. Duncan's efficiency in that finals is the worst ever.


so I don't believe in embiid or jokic sorry. jokic can make outside shots but he still has to mostly rely on post moves. it doesn't win anymore sorry. goannis got it done but only cause of horrible defense by the sun's with zero adjustments

[John_Connor]

Nothing. At all. Absolutely nothing. Just haters proving what we all know. That hate doesn’t care about results.

The 3 most hated on players here combine for 15 rings. Is what it is.

giannis can't beat a real defense

[Kblaze8855]

And yet he’s done everything there is to do. All that’s left to see is how many times he does each particular thing.

[DMAVS41]

giannis still has a ton to prove. his team made the finals without him and he only dominated cause the suns did single coverage and had no adjustments. he was able to spam his one dimensional moves all series. hes actually not that reliable. his stats are great but he doesn't look to make others better. he gets assists sometimes by accident. he goes 1 on 1 too much when he has a very limited move set. he never uses picks/screens or lets another guy get him easy looks. he could be the guy screening for someone and rolling to the basket or doing a luka high screen and kick. but he always does that basic top of the key go right spin move. a ton of his points come from just putting his head down and getting layups. its not smart basketball and when he slows down over time he will be a liability. lebron slowed down and became a solid open three point shooter. plus he has a better handle than giannis. he also looks to pass more. giannis really hasnt shown yet that he's an intelligent player. hes getting by just on pure goat level athleticism and build like a young wilt/lebron mix

Ton to prove?

To go down in the top 5 all time? Sure...but he could retire tomorrow and it would be hard to not put him top 15 all-time.

Not blaming you, but how many times do we have to hear the complaining about him relying on athleticism...that is part of the game. You don't get extra points for playing while short, slow, and weak.

Dude is a monster and he's already cemented as one of the best ever.

[DMAVS41]

The Bucks literally won the ECFs without Giannis. He faced a bunch of injured teams in every round and then capped it off against a suns team that just lost by 45 points at home in a Game 7.

Certain titles are worth more than others. Dirks 2011 title is held in incredible esteem. People clown Durants titles. Context matters. Just because you don't want to discuss it doesn't mean much.

And the context for Giannis is that he dominated to the tune of 35/13/5 while being a dpoy caliber defender in the finals last year. You think that "context" works against him?

[John_Connor]

And yet he’s done everything there is to do. All that’s left to see is how many times he does each particular thing.

lebrons done almost everything there is to do many times and he still hasn't proven he can win anything.


giannis has the resume but he still has a very flawed game that's ugly to watch most of the time. you know he has zero counters. he's all athleticism and size. he has a nice driving spin move. after that what does he do well offensively. I think he's a top 5 player but only cause of his defense and 25 or 26 teams not knowing how to defend him or being too stubborn to learn from the ones that can. the fact is he got lucky to face the Hawks and a dumb sun's coach. it's a circumstantial ring sorta like lebrons covid bubble one but I won't deny it's at least real unlike lebrons. tons of injuries to other guys but those aren't legit asterisks. giannis is a real champion and a real 2 time mvp. but he still hasn't proven to me that he's one of the greatest ever. to be one of the greats you can't have a glaring hole that can shut you and your team down if they simply slide their feet correctly when he's doing his football play. he's like a baby lebron. I didn't respect him and I don't respect giannis. 2006 to 2010 lebron probly wins the title in 2021 on that bucks team too. he still wasn't a legit player till 2012 to me

[Kblaze8855]

Luckily for both of them neither your respect nor your idea of proof mean anything in the face of real world accomplishment. Like I said you can’t out achieve a person who gets up to hate in the morning. 4 rings won’t do it for Lebron. 5 obviously didn’t for Kobe. 6 rings doesn’t for Jordan or Kareem. 11 for Russell didn’t do it. Someone somewhere wants to complain about some aspect of how it was done and that’s just the world we have.

Someone somewhere has a “But still….” to follow everything ever accomplished. The “But still….” section waste their entire lives making noise almost nobody hears and everyone forgets.

[kawhileonard2]

giannis should be more of a #2... like an amare stoudemire #2 who gets the most points while the real leader is a playmaking point guard that can run an offense and get giannis easy looks. he has tunnel vision. its the worst thing to have for a guy that handles the ball... he makes up his mind on what hes gonna do and will literally kill himself or the other person trying to finish. which is why he had the most offensive fouls in playoff history or tied dwight howards 2009 run to the finals and giannis did it in only 2 rounds

A guy who averages 35 ppg in the finals isn't a #2 guy.

[John_Connor]

Luckily for both of them neither your respect nor your idea of proof mean anything in the face of real world accomplishment. Like I said you can’t out achieve a person who gets up to hate in the morning. 4 rings won’t do it for Lebron. 5 obviously didn’t for Kobe. 6 rings doesn’t for Jordan or Kareem. 11 for Russell didn’t do it. Someone somewhere wants to complain about some aspect of how it was done and that’s just the world we have.

Someone somewhere has a “But still….” to follow everything ever accomplished. The “But still….” section waste their entire lives making noise almost nobody hears and everyone forgets.

wrong. because giannis will continue to be exposed again and again and again going forward because team defensive strategies only get better learning from watching film and how other teams defend him. the Raptors set the blue print and it's spreading. like I said earlier. giannis had as many charges as the all time leader Dwight Howard in just 2 rounds and that was the year the magic went to the finals. if giannis only wins one title and is continuously bounced in the 1st or 2nd round from here on out then it would get people talking about how the nba figured him out and the sun's just f*cked up. he's gonna have to beat a team that tries this wall defense to prove he's anything special

[John_Connor]

A guy who averages 35 ppg in the finals isn't a #2 guy.

the sun's begged him to go 1 on 1 and made no adjustments. it was the most moronic shit ever. that isn't a real stat line

[kawhileonard2]

the sun's begged him to go 1 on 1 and made no adjustments. it was the most moronic shit ever. that isn't a real stat line

A guy who averages 35 ppg in the finals isn't a #2 guy.

[RRR3]

the sun's begged him to go 1 on 1 and made no adjustments. it was the most moronic shit ever. that isn't a real stat line
Steaming

[warriorfan]

No one gives a damn what Kevin Durant thinks. He’s dumb as f.uck.

[Kblaze8855]

wrong. because giannis will continue to be exposed again and again and again going forward because team defensive strategies only get better learning from watching film and how other teams defend him. the Raptors set the blue print and it's spreading. like I said earlier. giannis had as many charges as the all time leader Dwight Howard in just 2 rounds and that was the year the magic went to the finals. if giannis only wins one title and is continuously bounced in the 1st or 2nd round from here on out then it would get people talking about how the nba figured him out and the sun's just f*cked up. he's gonna have to beat a team that tries this wall defense to prove he's anything special

Giannis, Luka, and everyone else is gonna lose 12-15 times and have people who will discredit them win or lose call it being exposed every time. Once you try to downplay 50/15 for the ring it’s obvious nothing performance wise will result in admitting you are wrong so it doesn’t matter what you think anymore. Win lose or draw. Dominate or not. You’ve established the bar cannot be reached and justified ignoring where you set it each time.

People like you have never and will never reach numbers to not be utterly drowned out. You’re one of the guys who didn’t vote for Babe Ruth or Willie Mays for the hall of fame.

Whatever your reasons are your lame protest means absolutely nothing in the future but to show that there were always haters blind to greatness and it’s best to ignore them. That’s all people like you end up. A lesson for future people to keep perspective and keep haters in the rear view.

[FultzNationRISE]

the sun's begged him to go 1 on 1 and made no adjustments. it was the most moronic shit ever. that isn't a real stat line

This is actually true, a bunch of us were saying in real time "Why arent the Suns building the wall???" It was inexplicable that they basically let him stomp all over them like that and never adjusted.

[John_Connor]

Giannis, Luka, and everyone else is gonna lose 12-15 times and have people who will discredit them win or lose call it being exposed every time. Once you try to downplay 50/15 for the ring it’s obvious nothing performance wise will result in admitting you are wrong so it doesn’t matter what you think anymore. Win lose or draw. Dominate or not. You’ve established the bar cannot be reached and justified ignoring where you set it each time.

People like you have never and will never reach numbers to not be utterly drowned out. You’re one of the guys who didn’t vote for Babe Ruth or Willie Mays for the hall of fame.

Whatever your reasons are your lame protest means absolutely nothing in the future but to show that there were always haters blind to greatness and it’s best to ignore them. That’s all people like you end up. A lesson for future people to keep perspective and keep haters in the rear view.

where was his 50/15 vs the celtics, raptors or heat

those teams don't play a superstar straight up like the idiot suns lol... they tried letting guys take luka 1 on 1 too and he got whatever he wanted. it was a fluke. monty williams is a f*cking idiot. he makes ZERO adjustments. hes the most overrated coach in the league and gets zero hate from the media cause his stupid wife died

i don't care about that finals because giannis didnt win it... the suns LOST it


its a great story and most fans wont see what i see. giannis is good for the league but i aint putting him in that top tier with guys like kobe/shaq/duncan/bird etc... even shaq had counters

[tontoz]

where was his 50/15 vs the celtics, raptors or heat

those teams don't play a superstar straight up like the idiot suns lol... they tried letting guys take luka 1 on 1 too and he got whatever he wanted. it was a fluke. monty williams is a f*cking idiot. he makes ZERO adjustments. hes the most overrated coach in the league and gets zero hate from the media cause his stupid wife died

i don't care about that finals because giannis didnt win it... the suns LOST it


its a great story and most fans wont see what i see. giannis is good for the league but i aint putting him in that top tier with guys like kobe/shaq/duncan/bird etc... even shaq had counters


In games 5 and 6 vs the Cs Giannis had 84/31. Not quite 50 but pretty close.

Luka did the same thing to the Clippers the last two playoffs. It isnt a Monty Williams thing.

[Kblaze8855]

Where was anyones best game in the dozens of other times they needed it during big losses? There’s only been 2 winning 50 point finals games in 50 years and Jordan’s wasn’t a closeout. There is nothing to really compare it to. Giannis haters are at the end of the goal post moving line.

It’s always “Do it in the playoffs”, then “Do it outside the first round”, and “But he hasn’t made the finals” and “Do it in the finals” and once you drop 50 to win a ring all that’s left is “Do it again” which of course….is nothing. It’s already done. Doing it again isn’t a new accomplishment. There is no new plateau only haters raising the standard from the mountain top to outer space proving they never had any intention of stopping no matter what happened.

[tpols]

The bucks “literally” beat a Hawks team who’s best player made 4 shots the last 3 games because he got injured mid series and missed 2 and played hurt in 1. Also doesn’t matter.

And no…the weight you personally give titles also means nothing. In the end Dirk and Hakeem are right where the number of rings they have generally gets you ranked along with other accolades. All that talk about 2011 or 94 being worth ___ rings obviously doesn’t matter because if Dirk had ____ rings and not one he would be ranked top 10ish and not top 20ish and if Hakeem had 4 he’d be top 5-6ish not fringe top 10.

Its just empty internet talk.

Absolutely nothing Giannis does from today on will prove anything a 50 burger with cheese to win the ring didn’t. This is nothing but version 65 of me saying and being right about someone doing what their haters say they can’t only forcing haters to move the goal posts not to stop hating.

Whatever he does you are going to act like it’s not enough for you to be wrong. Like I said our most hated people here have 15 combined rings in all manner of situations.

Nothing quiets someone who decided to be a dick. That’s just sports.

A 50 burger with cheese when he took more FTs by himself than the entire suns team combined? While being a record setting offensive fouler?

Even Shaq had a nice little baby hook and some counter moves. You don't see me disrespecting curry, Kawhi, Tatum, butler, luka, Jokic etc. I'm not hating on an invalid premise. I like watching guys who play basketball. This isn't football or MMA.

[DMAVS41]

In terms of the best player in the league.

I think I could be convinced of Giannis / Jokic / Luka... might be able to be convinced of Embiid, but it would be really hard.

If I have to pick just one...Giannis...but I actually do think Jokic gets under-rated here.

[DMAVS41]

A 50 burger with cheese when he took more FTs by himself than the entire suns team combined? While being a record setting offensive fouler?

Even Shaq had a nice little baby hook and some counter moves. You don't see me disrespecting curry, Kawhi, Tatum, butler, luka, Jokic etc. I'm not hating on an invalid premise. I like watching guys who play basketball. This isn't football or MMA.

Here we are back to the "Giannis isn't good at basketball" shit...my god guys...can you just take the L on this one?

Being big, fast, strong, and being able to dunk all over everyone are huge advantages for playing the game of basketball.

I remember when you finally admitted you'd rather have Dirk in crunch time than Kobe...you said it wasn't fair because Dirk can just shoot over people. Yea, it isn't fair...but we aren't grading these guys on a curve for level of difficulty. It doesn't matter how you do it...there are no extra points for being Steve Nash rather than Lebron James.

[tpols]

Here we are back to the "Giannis isn't good at basketball" shit...my god guys...can you just take the L on this one?

Being big, fast, strong, and being able to dunk all over everyone are huge advantages for playing the game of basketball.

I remember when you finally admitted you'd rather have Dirk in crunch time than Kobe...you said it wasn't fair because Dirk can just shoot over people. Yea, it isn't fair...but we aren't grading these guys on a curve for level of difficulty. It doesn't matter how you do it...there are no extra points for being Steve Nash rather than Lebron James.

Sure they are advantages but when its your ENTIRE game? Just... bulldozing and traveling? Go read the Celtic game thread. EVERYBODY was calling out his style. Its repulsive to the rules. But he's a big money maker so the league lets him get away with it.

[DMAVS41]

And no…the weight you personally give titles also means nothing. In the end Dirk and Hakeem are right where the number of rings they have generally gets you ranked along with other accolades. All that talk about 2011 or 94 being worth ___ rings obviously doesn’t matter because if Dirk had ____ rings and not one he would be ranked top 10ish and not top 20ish and if Hakeem had 4 he’d be top 5-6ish not fringe top 10.



I really agree with this. I think, of course, that reflects a flawed standard for ranking players that permeates these discussions, but the context of rings just doesn't matter much...we can argue it should matter more, I probably would...but rings are already too valued for rankings anyway.

All you need to point to is Durant. Basically everyone agrees those Warriors rings aren't that impressive...cool...where are people ranking Durant all-time right now? Top 15. Hell, two weeks ago I heard a lot of reputable people say top 10. Pretty sure Zach Lowe said top 10.

They'd never say that without the 2 rings from the Warriors...is what it is.

[tontoz]

Here we are back to the "Giannis isn't good at basketball" shit...my god guys...can you just take the L on this one?

Being big, fast, strong, and being able to dunk all over everyone are huge advantages for playing the game of basketball.

I remember when you finally admitted you'd rather have Dirk in crunch time than Kobe...you said it wasn't fair because Dirk can just shoot over people. Yea, it isn't fair...but we aren't grading these guys on a curve for level of difficulty. It doesn't matter how you do it...there are no extra points for being Steve Nash rather than Lebron James.


People see what they want to see. They don't want to see that Giannis is actually shooting over 40% from 3-10 feet, 10-16 feet and 16-3pt. 36% of his shots were from that range this year but people want to cling to their "Giannis isn't skilled" narrative in spite of all the evidence to the contrary.

[Kblaze8855]

A 50 burger with cheese when he took more FTs by himself than the entire suns team combined? While being a record setting offensive fouler?

Even Shaq had a nice little baby hook and some counter moves. You don't see me disrespecting curry, Kawhi, Tatum, butler, luka, Jokic etc. I'm not hating on an invalid premise. I like watching guys who play basketball. This isn't football or MMA.

Free throws aren’t supposed to be equal. Last time you came with your bullshit you posted he took more in the series than 3 guys who took like 70 more outside shots than he did. Not only did/does he attack relentlessly he went out after a whole playoff of air balls and mocking and wet almost all his free throws to win the ****ing title. It’s just more hater reaching with no substance.

You’re on the long list of idiots who don’t actually care what happens and use results only to justify opinions that won’t change because they aren’t rooted in reality to begin with. Years of “______ can’t win like that” down the toilet but you can’t just be wrong. It’s reality that’s wrong.

The L is yours no matter if you take it or not. Ls do not ask for consent.

[tpols]

Relentlessly running people over and being rewarded for it isn't a valid excuse for a massive free throw discrepancy.

Literally everybody was meme'ing Giannis in that Celtic game thread. Posting running back football formation gifs and laughing. Its a joke man.

[DMAVS41]

Sure they are advantages but when its your ENTIRE game? Just... bulldozing and traveling? Go read the Celtic game thread. EVERYBODY was calling out his style. Its repulsive to the rules. But he's a big money maker so the league lets him get away with it.

None of it matters. Style / skill...doesn't matter...only thing that matters is the results.

[tpols]

None of it matters. Style / skill...doesn't matter...only thing that matters is the results.

Bullshit. If somebody is breaking the rules to win the results are tainted. Bernie Madoff had incredible results through fraud. Many people achieve great things through an immoral route.

[DMAVS41]

Bullshit. If somebody is breaking the rules to win the results are tainted. Bernie Madoff had incredible results through fraud. Many people achieve great things through an immoral route.

Hate to tell you this...but nobody is coming to take Giannis's title, records, and accolades away...or throw him in basketball jail for the rest of his life...because he has uncalled travels.

:facepalm

[Kblaze8855]

I really agree with this. I think, of course, that reflects a flawed standard for ranking players that permeates these discussions, but the context of rings just doesn't matter much...we can argue it should matter more, I probably would...but rings are already too valued for rankings anyway.

All you need to point to is Durant. Basically everyone agrees those Warriors rings aren't that impressive...cool...where are people ranking Durant all-time right now? Top 15. Hell, two weeks ago I heard a lot of reputable people say top 10. Pretty sure Zach Lowe said top 10.

They'd never say that without the 2 rings from the Warriors...is what it is.

People really be like “Rick Barry’s 75, Dirks 11, Hakeem’s 94, and Duncan’s 03 are like 3 rings”.

Let them see Rick Barry 12th all time or Dirk at 6. “With one ring?”. The dishonesty really melts away under fire.

[DMAVS41]

People really be like “Ricky Barry’s 75, Dirks 11, Hakeem’s 94, and Duncan’s 03 are like 3 rings”.

Let them see Ricky Barry 12th all time or Dirk at 6. “With one ring?”. The dishonesty really melts away under fire.

Exactly.

[tpols]

Hate to tell you this...but nobody is coming to take Giannis's title, records, and accolades away...or throw him in basketball jail for the rest of his life...because he has uncalled travels.

:facepalm

There are tons of guys just like Madoff who made millions even billions ripping people off on the stock market, essentially robbing old peoples retirement accounts en masse that got little to no jail time and are still rich and free.

I'm not saying Giannis is a scumbag like them but its an analogy for your "results are the only thing that matters" theory. That's a very wrong statement. Context is what really matters.

[Kblaze8855]

Relentlessly running people over and being rewarded for it isn't a valid excuse for a massive free throw discrepancy.

Literally everybody was meme'ing Giannis in that Celtic game thread. Posting running back football formation gifs and laughing. Its a joke man.


Meanwhile nba players were saying Mount rushmore might need a new face and players like Jaylen Brown left the series ranking Giannis as the best in the league.

Everything is said by someone if you look hard enough. What’s said on this forum is especially irrelevant to the facts. You’re here taking our credibility down every day.

[Charlie Sheen]

This is actually true, a bunch of us were saying in real time "Why arent the Suns building the wall???" It was inexplicable that they basically let him stomp all over them like that and never adjusted.
SVG mentioned it during the C's vs Bucks... its just as much about Giannis decisions making as it is about any defensive scheme. If Giannis reduces the number of wasted possessions from his 3pa, any defense against him is going to be less effective. Middleton was playing at a really high level in the finals as well.

[DMAVS41]

There are tons of guys just like Madoff who made millions even billions ripping people off on the stock market, essentially robbing old peoples retirement accounts en masse that got little to no jail time and are still rich and free.

I'm not saying Giannis is a scumbag like them but its an analogy for your "results are the only thing that matters" theory. That's a very wrong statement. Context is what really matters.

Well, we are talking about basketball...and your "analogy" really doesn't hold up. The refs are watching him play and saying, in real time, he's not breaking the rules. That would be like someone investigating Madoff and saying he's good to go based on the rules. If they called it more...he'd stop doing it...Giannis is great at basketball and his career so far at age 27 puts him firmly in the top 20 of all-time by any reasonable standard. Just a matter now of how high he goes.

Does this shit ever get old for you? You said Dirk would never win. Lebron would never win. Now it is Giannis. Who's next?

You guys have to stop thinking that "playing the right way" wins more. CP3 hasn't won shit. He's a career loser. Doesn't mean he's not great...he is, but he does all the shit you guys value so much...and he loses to guys that play the "wrong way" every single year. Same thing with Durant...loses every year he's not on the Warriors. Plays like your wet dream of efficiency and off-ball impact...mid-range....etc. Loses every year it is not an easy lock for the title (and even then probably should have lost to Harden in 18.

Dirk. Lost every year, but one. I could go on and on and on...

[Kblaze8855]

Bullshit. If somebody is breaking the rules to win the results are tainted. Bernie Madoff had incredible results through fraud. Many people achieve great things through an immoral route.


Only the rules you(as an important person) decide matter.

The number of missed fouls on Giannis pales in comparison to missed dribbling violations on every ball handler in the league but fact is you don’t care about rules. You weaponize select violations to further a point you’re too far down the rabbit hole to let go of.

You were wrong. You’ll be wrong forever.

[tpols]

That would be like someone investigating Madoff and saying he's good to go based on the rules.


:roll:

Do you know how many got away with it? How many people got filthy rich in a similar manner? Jordan Belfort is still worth 100s of millions of dollars and free.

Madoff is just one of the guys that got caught and used as a patsy to act like they solved the corruption problem. When the fact is corruption and turning a blind eye to it in high society is as bad as its ever been. That was actually a perfect setup.

[tontoz]

:roll:

Do you know how many got away with it? How many people got filthy rich in a similar manner? Madoff is just one of the guys that got caught and used as a pasty to act like they solved the corruption problem. When the fact is corruption and turning a blind eye to it in high society is as bad as its ever been. That was actually a perfect setup.


Madoff wasnt scamming people on live TV :facepalm

[DMAVS41]

:roll:

Do you know how many got away with it? How many people got filthy rich in a similar manner? Madoff is just one of the guys that got caught and used as a pasty to act like they solved the corruption problem. When the fact is corruption and turning a blind eye to it in high society is as bad as its ever been. That was actually a perfect setup.

You aren't following.

Giannis is being watched every single play of his career. The people that matter (not you) are signing off on everything saying he's not breaking the rules when they don't call something. Not sure what is hard to understand.

You analogy doesn't hold up.

[Jasper]

no not even close because bigs can't initiate anything. they're entirely dependent on other guys getting them the ball in their spots. they can't bring it up the court and when one of them tries he fails miserably against any real defense


its like shaq without another great scorer/playmaker/ball handler... hes not nearly as great. all luka needs to win is an above average sidekick and some shooters.


giannis needs middleton. embiid needs a harden or simmons type to carry him when hes shitting the bed. jokic needs murray.


all luka needs is brunson.. thats a way bigger drop off in talent. luka could very well win the title with him as his 2nd guy. that would be 94 hakeem shit

go back to your black forest in canada