Who is the greatest 22 year old of all time?

[Bronbron23]

Luka ATM is 22 and he's making his case but who's his comp? MJ in a losing effort was putting up historic numbers against one of the goat teams of all time. Kareem was putting up ridiculous numbers that probably never get touched again. Bron was putting up nice numbers while taking a mediocre team to the finals. And of course magic at the age of 22 was busy winning his second ring. Probably missed a player or 2 but who u got? I gotta go with magic personally but depending on what Luka does that could change.

[Phoenix]

Technically he's 23, but the point stands I suppose. I think it's easier to perhaps look at Luka's first 4 years, both in terms of his immediate impact and fast ascent to superstardom, stats( can't measure them against 75 years of history as much as relative to the league he's in), and I suppose make a case as to how many players have had a better 4 year run. This is his first deep playoff run so it's hard to say whether he's better or worse than guys who already did what they did( like if Luka at worst makes the finals and puts up a better showing and his team is more competitive, is it better than Lebron 07? Maybe.) There's an argument his first 4 years aren't worse than MJ's, especially if you consider that Luka's teams were able to provide resistance to the better team( Clippers) than MJ's early career Bulls managed against the Celtics( both guys had major talent deficits to deal with). There's whole lot of context in this kind of thing, of course.

Some of the historians who study basketball as far back as the 60's may be able to better answer that than the Gen X to Gen Z crowd.

[HoopsNY]

I think MJ was 23 by that time. My pick would probably be Kareem.

[Phoenix]

I think MJ was 23 by that time. My pick would probably be Kareem.

Yeah, when you ask if Luka is the best 22/23 year old that's the level of player you're measuring against. Lebron is the obvious modern example.

[Bronbron23]

Technically he's 23, but the point stands I suppose. I think it's easier to perhaps look at Luka's first 4 years, both in terms of his immediate impact and fast ascent to superstardom, stats( can't measure them against 75 years of history as much as relative to the league he's in), and I suppose make a case as to how many players have had a better 4 year run. This is his first deep playoff run so it's hard to say whether he's better or worse than guys who already did what they did( like if Luka at worst makes the finals and puts up a better showing and his team is more competitive, is it better than Lebron 07? Maybe.) There's an argument his first 4 years aren't worse than MJ's, especially if you consider that Luka's teams were able to provide resistance to the better team( Clippers) than MJ's early career Bulls managed against the Celtics( both guys had major talent deficits to deal with). There's whole lot of context in this kind of thing, of course.

Some of the historians who study basketball as far back as the 60's may be able to better answer that than the Gen X to Gen Z crowd.

So what about magic by 22/23? He had 2 chips and a historic performance as a rookie without Kareem. He did of course have Kareem unlike Luka, MJ and bron

[ImKobe]

'01 Kobe, and he actually was 22, unlike Luka rn.

[Bronbron23]

'01 Kobe, and he actually was 22, unlike Luka rn.

Yeah Kobe deserves an argument for sure.

[HoopsNY]

'01 Kobe, and he actually was 22, unlike Luka rn.

Yea good mention. Forgot that Kobe was 22 in 2001. Tough for me to overlook Kareem though. He was a rookie and put up 35/17/4 on 57% (probably an additional 4 blocks and 2 steals if they were counting it) in the playoffs. Granted, that era was much higher paced than 2001 which was the defensive peak of the league.

[Jasper]

kareem

[Phoenix]

So what about magic by 22/23? He had 2 chips and a historic performance as a rookie without Kareem. He did of course have Kareem unlike Luka, MJ and bron

There-in lies the context, and why it's even difficult to compare him to a Kobe as well. In order for the comparisons to be close to exact, Luka would have to be playing alongside someone like current Giannis from day one. Measuring team achievements when two guys are playing with Shaq and Kareem, and the other Brunson ( or Porzingis pre-trade)....these aren't remotely comparable scenarios. I mean, is there any doubt Luka and Giannis would dominate the league if they played together? Luka's career tractory 4 years in is similar to MJ or Lebron, as you note.

[Bronbron23]

There-in lies the context, and why it's even difficult to compare him to a Kobe as well. In order for the comparisons to be close to exact, Luka would have to be playing alongside someone like current Giannis from day one. Measuring team achievements when two guys are playing with Shaq and Kareem, and the other Brunson ( or Porzingis pre-trade)....these aren't remotely comparable scenarios. I mean, is there any doubt Luka and Giannis would dominate the league if they played together? Luka's career tractory 4 years in is similar to MJ or Lebron, as you note.

It's not always as simple as pairing to greats. It's failed before. I don't even know what it would like like tbh because both players are at their best with the ball in their hands. Luka is ball dominant as hell and Greek likes bringing the ball up to get a head of steam. With magic and Kareem it worked because Kareem didn't need the ball in his hands as much. Same could be said for said for Shaq and Kobe.

Plus it's not like we didn't see magic win a finals game without Kareem. Who knows how special magic could of been that series without Kareem.

[FKAri]

Magic had some great performances at that age but I'd argue it was a few outlier performances which resonate in the memory rather than a baseline level of play.

I'd argue it's Kareem or Lebron. They had precocious physicality and bball iq. By age 24, the answer is MJ.

[BarberSchool]

Kobe
Magic
Kareem
LeBron
Jordan scoring 63 on the Celtics in the playoffs.
Luka

[Phoenix]

It's not always as simple as pairing to greats. It's failed before. I don't even know what it would like like tbh because both players are at their best with the ball in their hands. Luka is ball dominant as hell and Greek likes bringing the ball up to get a head of steam. With magic and Kareem it worked because Kareem didn't need the ball in his hands as much. Same could be said for said for Shaq and Kobe.

Plus it's not like we didn't see magic win a finals game without Kareem. Who knows how special magic could of been that series without Kareem.

Right, but are the Lakers even getting to the finals to start with, for Magic to have the opportunity to have his game 6? So when you mention that Magic had 2 chips by 22, good chance he doesn't without Kareem or even be positioned to come close to it until his peak years in the late 80's.

[Manny98]

1. 01 Kobe
2. 82 Magic
3. 07 LeBron

[3ba11]

.
Stats at 22 and 23 years old against championship teams and #1 defense:


Jordan vs 86' Celts...... 44 on 50%

Lebron vs 07' Spurs..... 22 on 36%
Lebron vs 08' Celts...... 26 on 36%

[John8204]

I would say the top five is

George Mikan (won an NBL title)
Tim Duncan (won an NBA title)
Magic Johnson (won an NBA title)
Rick Barry (all-time scoring leader PPG at 22)
Luke Doncic or Kareem depending on this season.

[Champ]

Bird, for single-handledly turning around a franchise.

Celtics went from second-worst to first in the league for both won/loss record and overall net rating.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/1979.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/1980.html

[PeroAntic]

Derrick Rose as proven by the youngest MVP award ever.

[Round Mound]

Kareem

[gonzaldo]

Ehm i'll put Shaq there too?

29,3/11,4/2,4/3 bl regular season and made the finals

[RRR3]

Derrick Rose as proven by the youngest MVP award ever.
Holy shit you’re retarded

[PeroAntic]

Holy shit you’re retarded

Maybe you know someone who became MVP of the league younger than him?

[ArbitraryWater]

Maybe you know someone who became MVP of the league younger than him?

you really have no shame left do you?

[Phoenix]

Maybe you know someone who became MVP of the league younger than him?

Better player: 2001 Kobe or 2011 Rose? Not talking about MVPs, just who was the better on-court performer?

[Phoenix]

Just to throw his name out there, Tim Duncan was 22 for all of the 99 regular season, turning 23 less than 2 months before winning the chip with FMVP. All-NBA first team, All-Defensive First team, 3rd in MVP.

Just sayin....

[rmt]

Luka is 23 - 2x all nba 1st team (so far) - 19 year old rookie (Feb birthday)

Magic at 23: 2 rings, 2 FMVP, all nba 1st team, all nba 2nd team, 2x steals leader, assist leader - 19 year old rookie (Aug birthday)
Duncan at 23: ring, FMVP, 2x all nba 1st team, all defensive 1st team, all defensive 2nd team - 4 years in college (Apr birthday)
Lebron at 23: 2x all nba 1st team, 2x all nba 2nd team, scoring leader - 18 year old rookie (Dec birthday)
Kareem at 23: all nba 2nd team, all defensive 2nd team - 4 years in college (Apr birthday)

[Bronbron23]

Luka is 23 - 2x all nba 1st team (so far) - 19 year old rookie (Feb birthday)

Magic at 23: 2 rings, 2 FMVP, all nba 1st team, all nba 2nd team, 2x steals leader, assist leader - 19 year old rookie (Aug birthday)
Duncan at 23: ring, FMVP, 2x all nba 1st team, all defensive 1st team, all defensive 2nd team - 4 years in college (Apr birthday)
Lebron at 23: 2x all nba 1st team, 2x all nba 2nd team, scoring leader - 18 year old rookie (Dec birthday)
Kareem at 23: all nba 2nd team, all defensive 2nd team - 4 years in college (Apr birthday)

What if Luka wins a title and fmvp?

[Shooter]

In 2007, 22 year old LeBron James led his team to the NBA Finals, beating the Detroit Pistons with Boobie Gibson. The same pistons that beat the 2004 Kobe, Shaq, Malone, Payton Lakers 4-1.

Bye.

[iamgine]

Chris Paul was way up there too.

[TheGoatest]

Luka ATM is 22 and he's making his case but who's his comp? MJ in a losing effort was putting up historic numbers against one of the goat teams of all time. Kareem was putting up ridiculous numbers that probably never get touched again. Bron was putting up nice numbers while taking a mediocre team to the finals. And of course magic at the age of 22 was busy winning his second ring. Probably missed a player or 2 but who u got? I gotta go with magic personally but depending on what Luka does that could change.

Doncic, Luka - Age: 23-079d

:oldlol: jordon extremist alts digging up them "alternative facts" again.

LeGOATest James was age 22-154d when he led his team to the finals with someone named Daniel Gibson as his #2 scorer.

And even though this 23 year-old Luka has been playing well, the fact is that he's playing on a team that is 2-1 without him these playoffs. Had LeBron played on a team that would win 2 out of 3 playoff games without him, he would be capable of beating any team in NBA history.

[GimmeThat]

the guy whose salary is being deferred until a later date by the entire world

[PeroAntic]

Better player: 2001 Kobe or 2011 Rose? Not talking about MVPs, just who was the better on-court performer?

Thats a good one. I'd go with Rose. He carried an offensively challenged Bulls team to 60 wins. 25 points and 8 assists as a small guy being the focal point of the team. Kobe had 28/5 during the season where Shaq was in his most dominant prime and commanding the most attention. 2011 Rose with 2001 Shaq would have also easily been a title all else held constant.

[Baller789]

Doncic, Luka - Age: 23-079d

:oldlol: jordon extremist alts digging up them "alternative facts" again.

LeGOATest James was age 22-154d when he led his team to the finals with someone named Daniel Gibson as his #2 scorer.

And even though this 23 year-old Luka has been playing well, the fact is that he's playing on a team that is 2-1 without him these playoffs. Had LeBron played on a team that would win 2 out of 3 playoff games without him, he would be capable of beating any team in NBA history.

Who did Lebron beat to get to the Finals again?
Vs who Luka is going thru?

[rmt]

What if Luka wins a title and fmvp?

Well then, he'd be behind Magic and Duncan (as a 23 year old), wouldn't he?

Magic at 23: 2 rings, 2 FMVP, all nba 1st team, all nba 2nd team, 2x steals leader, assist leader - 19 year old rookie (Aug birthday)
Duncan at 23: ring, FMVP, 2x all nba 1st team, all defensive 1st team, all defensive 2nd team - 4 years in college (Apr birthday)

[GimmeThat]

Well then, he'd be behind Magic and Duncan (as a 23 year old), wouldn't he?

Magic at 23: 2 rings, 2 FMVP, all nba 1st team, all nba 2nd team, 2x steals leader, assist leader - 19 year old rookie (Aug birthday)
Duncan at 23: ring, FMVP, 2x all nba 1st team, all defensive 1st team, all defensive 2nd team - 4 years in college (Apr birthday)

wouldn't brag about those accomplishments given the climate back then.

[rmt]

wouldn't brag about those accomplishments given the climate back then.

What climate do you mean? The slower, more defensive emphasis back then? As compared to recent 3 time DPOY Gobert?

[8Ball]

Either Bron or Luka or Kareem

[Manny98]

Chris Paul was way up there too.

Good shout

08 Chris Paul was different

[GimmeThat]

What climate do you mean? The slower, more defensive emphasis back then? As compared to recent 3 time DPOY Gobert?

indeed, the emmy boxing match back then, with estrogen floating everywhere

[rmt]

indeed, the emmy boxing match back then, with estrogen floating everywhere

Are you implying that the NBA was a lot of acting back then or not manly? Some plain English, please.

[GimmeThat]

Are you implying that the NBA was a lot of acting back then or not manly? Some plain English, please.

this gimmick account has repeatedly stated the toxicity of trannies, yet without being proven wrong ever, it continues.

I'm guessing you're still stuck on the 'national' instead of 'professional' part.

[Phoenix]

Thats a good one. I'd go with Rose. He carried an offensively challenged Bulls team to 60 wins. 25 points and 8 assists as a small guy being the focal point of the team. Kobe had 28/5 during the season where Shaq was in his most dominant prime and commanding the most attention. 2011 Rose with 2001 Shaq would have also easily been a title all else held constant.

No bruh, you're too invested in Rose. 2001 Kobe was a better player than 2011 Rose on both ends of the court, and easily so. So you're taking Kobe as a better defensive player, inserting him on a team that was built on defense so they'd be even better in that regard, while also having access to his wider scoring skillset. There's no way the 2011 Bulls are worse off with Kobe than Rose if you swapped them.

Also, putting Rose on the 2001 Lakers doesn't net the same result, simply on the basis that Kobe was playing great defense as well as scoring at an elite level, and facilitating. Rose ain't doing all that, especially defensively.

[RRR3]

Thats a good one. I'd go with Rose. He carried an offensively challenged Bulls team to 60 wins. 25 points and 8 assists as a small guy being the focal point of the team. Kobe had 28/5 during the season where Shaq was in his most dominant prime and commanding the most attention. 2011 Rose with 2001 Shaq would have also easily been a title all else held constant.
Rose better than prime Kobe lmao. Shut up.

[Phoenix]

Rose better than prime Kobe lmao. Shut up.

I think the answer is Rose no matter who you compare him with. I asked him that already knowing the reply.:lol

[Manny98]

Rose stans :lol

[RRR3]

Rose stans :lol
:yaohappy:

[RRR3]

I think the answer is Rose no matter who you compare him with. I asked him that already knowing the reply.:lol
Rose would beat LeBron MJ and Shaq 1 on 3.

[PeroAntic]

No bruh, you're too invested in Rose. 2001 Kobe was a better player than 2011 Rose on both ends of the court, and easily so. So you're taking Kobe as a better defensive player, inserting him on a team that was built on defense so they'd be even better in that regard, while also having access to his wider scoring skillset. There's no way the 2011 Bulls are worse off with Kobe than Rose if you swapped them.

Also, putting Rose on the 2001 Lakers doesn't net the same result, simply on the basis that Kobe was playing great defense as well as scoring at an elite level, and facilitating. Rose ain't doing all that, especially defensively.

Pre injury Rose was a pretty good defender. Even with all the offensive responsibilities he was still a plus on defense because of his quickness and athleticism. If he doesn't have to carry that much of a load on offense because he has Shaq, he would be even better on defense.

[Phoenix]

A 'what if' version of the 2011 Bulls:

Noah
Boozer
Deng
Bogans
Kobe
Taj Gibson

Um yeah, that's a better version of the actual 2011 Bulls

[Phoenix]

Pre injury Rose was a pretty good defender. Even with all the offensive responsibilities he was still a plus on defense because of his quickness and athleticism. If he doesn't have to carry that much of a load on offense because he has Shaq, he would be even better on defense.

Kobe was a legit all-NBA defender in 2001, and legitimately so, not those 'reputation' all-defensive teams he got in the mid 2000s. That Spurs series where Shaq had to deal with Duncan and Robinson, Kobe was 33/7/7 51%, with 45 and 10 in game 1. Rose isn't duplicating that kind of effort.

[PeroAntic]

A 'what if' version of the 2011 Bulls:

Noah
Boozer
Deng
Bogans
Kobe
Taj Gibson

Um yeah, that's a better version of the actual 2011 Bulls

Its pretty much the same because they gain some defense and lose some playmaking. Which is what happens with the 2001 Lakers too in reverse.

MVP Rose is criminally underrated.

[PeroAntic]

Kobe was a legit all-NBA defender in 2001, and legitimately so, not those 'reputation' all-defensive teams he got in the mid 2000s. That Spurs series where Shaq had to deal with Duncan and Robinson, Kobe was 33/7/7 51%, with 45 and 10 in game 1. Rose isn't duplicating that kind of effort.

Rose went off in his first ever playoff game and is known as a playoff performer even today

[RRR3]

Rose went off in his first ever playoff game and is known as a playoff performer even today
Rose is known as a playoff performer to WHO? You? He shot like absolute shit in the playoffs lmao. The absolute disrespect to Kobe rn :facepalm

[ArbitraryWater]

apparently Rose in 2011 was better than this guy


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNAi33IvVkU



:lol


Rose not even a top 20 22-year old

[Phoenix]

Its pretty much the same because they gain some defense and lose some playmaking. Which is what happens with the 2001 Lakers too in reverse.

MVP Rose is criminally underrated.

No it isn't. They gain alot of defense, better scoring and Kobe that year was dishing 6-7 dimes on top of the 30ppg.

[Phoenix]

Rose went off in his first ever playoff game and is known as a playoff performer even today

I've yet to hear a single conversation where Derrick Rose was great enough of a playoff performer to be topic-worthy. Beyond delusional.

[PeroAntic]

I've yet to hear a single conversation where Derrick Rose was great enough of a playoff performer to be topic-worthy. Beyond delusional.

In every season Rose has played in the playoffs, his stats were better than his regular season. Youre free to check it. That includes post injury Rose.

[PeroAntic]

No it isn't. They gain alot of defense, better scoring and Kobe that year was dishing 6-7 dimes on top of the 30ppg.

They dont need defense though. They need a pointguard with a scoring/assisting ratio thats better than Kobe's. He was not a better passer than Rose.

[PeroAntic]

apparently Rose in 2011 was better than this guy


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNAi33IvVkU



:lol


Rose not even a top 20 22-year old

Prisoner of the moment. If MVP Rose hogs the ball that much in todays spaced out game (and never gets injured), he easily gets those stats.

[Phoenix]

In every season Rose has played in the playoffs, his stats were better than his regular season. Youre free to check it. That includes post injury Rose.

That wasn't the argument. His best regular season stats weren't that gaudy, and there's a mile long list of players with better playoff stats and done things more note-worthy. Nobody ranks Rose among the best playoff performers ever, even at his best.

[Phoenix]

They dont need defense though. They need a pointguard with a scoring/assisting ratio thats better than Kobe's. He was not a better passer than Rose.

It's not like Rose was one of the best passing point guards. The difference in their passing ability is smaller than the gap between their offense and defense. Kobe more or less ran point in the triangle anyway, or do you really think Derrick Fisher was the one running the offense? A quote from Phil Jackson:

https://a.espncdn.com/nba/playoffs2001/2001/0527/1205474.html#:~:text=%22Kobe's%20become%20the%20fl oor%20leader,that%20he%20was%20envisioned%20at.

"Kobe's become the floor leader of a basketball team that was kind of looking for that nature of a player, who could not only be a scorer, but also be a playmaker or consistently make big plays at critical times," Jackson said. "So it was very important for Kobe to step into that role that he was envisioned at. I've always held the bar up very high for Kobe, and he's not only reached that bar, but he's jumping over the top of it right now.
"And I think it's the best that I've ever seen a player of mine play with an overall court game. I'm asking him to do so much, and he's accomplishing it."


Rose wouldn't have come close to duplicating the all-court play of 2001 Kobe. You don't even know how Rose adapts to the triangle, since the argument is how well he'd have played on the 2001 Lakers. Not everyone grasps that offense or had a game that could thrive in it.

[PeroAntic]

Rose wouldn't have come close to duplicating the all-court play of 2001 Kobe. You don't even know how Rose adapts to the triangle, since the argument is how well he'd have played on the 2001 Lakers. Not everyone grasps that offense or had a game that could thrive in it.

I think youre severely underrating MVP Rose. Theres a reason he beat so many great players to the award. Shaq and MVP Rose with the role players the Lakers had is a guarantee for several rings. You dont even have to play the triangle, tactics adapt to personnel not vice versa

[ArbitraryWater]

Prisoner of the moment. If MVP Rose hogs the ball that much in todays spaced out game (and never gets injured), he easily gets those stats.

prisoner of the moment,

as Luka averages 30+ pts on 47%+ shooting and 58% TS for the 3rd straight post-season, with an average of 39 in elimination games....

yes :lol


**** it, Rose could do that, even though he never has, once.

[RRR3]

In every season Rose has played in the playoffs, his stats were better than his regular season. Youre free to check it. That includes post injury Rose.
Rose regular season efficiency: 52.8 TS%

Playoffs: 50.7% :yaohappy:


Quit making shit up. During his MVP year his efficiency completely tanked in the playoffs from 55.0% to 49.9% :lol

[ArbitraryWater]

Rose regular season efficiency: 52.8 TS%

Playoffs: 50.7% :yaohappy:


Quit making shit up. During his MVP year his efficiency completely tanked in the playoffs from 55.0% to 49.9% :lol

Youre free to check it.

[RRR3]

Youre free to check it.
:lol

[PeroAntic]

Rose regular season efficiency: 52.8 TS%

Playoffs: 50.7% :yaohappy:


Quit making shit up. During his MVP year his efficiency completely tanked in the playoffs from 55.0% to 49.9% :lol

Right, the only stat that exists and matters is efficiency. And especially in a comparison with Kobe. how thick can some people be smh

[RRR3]

Right, the only stat that exists and matters is efficiency. And especially in a comparison with Kobe. how thick can some people be smh
Kobe generally maintained his regular season efficiency in the playoffs, try again. He was also noticeably more efficient than Rose to begin with.

[Phoenix]

I think youre severely underrating MVP Rose. Theres a reason he beat so many great players to the award. Shaq and MVP Rose with the role players the Lakers had is a guarantee for several rings. You dont even have to play the triangle, tactics adapt to personnel not vice versa

No I'm not. I'm just saying he wasn't a better player than 2001 Kobe. Rose could have been great in his MVP year and still not be > than Kobe. It's not a situation where both things can't be true.

Nash also beat guys like Kobe, Duncan, Lebron, Shaq, Dirk, out for the MVP and they were all in or near their primes. Rose winning it was more in line with that because nobody considered him the best player that year, just like nobody considered Nash better than the aforementioned GOAT level players.

[Phoenix]

Right, the only stat that exists and matters is efficiency. And especially in a comparison with Kobe. how thick can some people be smh

Kobe's playoff efficiency in 2001 was better than 2011 Rose. You're free to check it.

[PeroAntic]

Kobe's playoff efficiency in 2001 was better than 2011 Rose. You're free to check it.

Neither of them was known or cared too much about efficiency, they had the same mentality of willing your team to victory. But Rose being the only real offensive threat on the Bulls was swarmed by the Heatles, something that would have never happened with Shaq on the team. On the other hand Kobe had Shaq but still got suffocated by the Pistons because they played him right into their hands.

In the end having or not having Shaq makes a huge difference and this impacts defense too; MVP Rose was a very capable defender with his physical ability but he didnt max out on that end because he had to carry the load offensively.

[RRR3]

Neither of them was known or cared too much about efficiency, they had the same mentality of willing your team to victory. But Rose being the only real offensive threat on the Bulls was swarmed by the Heatles, something that would have never happened with Shaq on the team. On the other hand Kobe had Shaq but still got suffocated by the Pistons because they played him right into their hands.

In the end having or not having Shaq makes a huge difference and this impacts defense too; MVP Rose was a very capable defender with his physical ability but he didnt max out on that end because he had to carry the load offensively.
It doesn’t matter if Kobe cared about efficiency considering he was almost always above average in actual efficiency unlike Rose who has consistently been inefficient (maybe he should have cared more about it!)

[PeroAntic]

It doesn’t matter if Kobe cared about efficiency considering he was almost always above average in actual efficiency unlike Rose who has consistently been inefficient (maybe he should have cared more about it!)

These are small margins. You can say Giannis is more efficient than Kobe, but there is no point comparing Giannis to Jokic in terms of efficiency for example. In the same way there is no point comparing efficiency between Kobe and Rose.

As I said prime Rose's efficiency suffered because he was swarmed by superteams and his teammates were pretty much offensively challenged for one of them to be a real #2.

[ShawkFactory]

Do we really have some arguing for Rose here? :lol

[Phoenix]

Neither of them was known or cared too much about efficiency, they had the same mentality of willing your team to victory. But Rose being the only real offensive threat on the Bulls was swarmed by the Heatles, something that would have never happened with Shaq on the team. On the other hand Kobe had Shaq but still got suffocated by the Pistons because they played him right into their hands.

In the end having or not having Shaq makes a huge difference and this impacts defense too; MVP Rose was a very capable defender with his physical ability but he didnt max out on that end because he had to carry the load offensively.

The point is that Kobe was more efficient and scored more ( I didn't argue whether either was especially efficient in general), gave you more rebounds, better defense and 5-6 assists compared to the 8 Rose was getting cancels out any playmaking edge. You're harping on one thing Rose did incrementally better. Also the very nature of the Triangle offense reduces individual assist numbers. And with respects to the Triangle, you said the team would fit the offense around the personnel. You're out in space if you think Phil Jackson is going to ditch the Triangle to accommodate Rose when you have peak Shaq, for which the Triangle best functions with a dominant post presence ( it's actually more ideal for Shaq than it was for MJ, but MJ made it work because he was a dominant post scorer especially in the 2nd threepeat.)

[Phoenix]

Do we really have some arguing for Rose here? :lol

Welcome to Insidehoops lol.

[ArbitraryWater]

Right, the only stat that exists and matters is efficiency. And especially in a comparison with Kobe. how thick can some people be smh

No one said it's the only stat, its you who said his stats got better. Is efficiency a stat or not?

In Rose's case, a volume scorer, its also the most important stat.

Rose shrinks in the playoffs.

[PeroAntic]

Rose shrinks in the playoffs.

Clearly you didn't watch last year's series against Atlanta where he was carrying the Knicks.

[RRR3]

Clearly you didn't watch last year's series against Atlanta where he was carrying the Knicks.
Carrying them to what? Congrats to Rose for being able to score on legendary defender Trae Young.

[PeroAntic]

Carrying them to what? Congrats to Rose for being able to score on legendary defender Trae Young.

It was Bogdanovic guarding him the entire series, not Trae. They were hiding Trae from Rose.

[RRR3]

It was Bogdanovic guarding him the entire series, not Trae. They were hiding Trae from Rose.
Bogdanovic is also horrible at defense, you're not helping your case :oldlol:

When Rose had to face good defenses in the 2011 playoffs, he was hideously inefficient.

[Baller789]

Tim Duncan is up there.

[HoopsNY]

I'd put 22 yr old Shaq up there as well. He won the scoring title and led his team to the finals. Shaq was such a dominant force at the age of 22. I don't think he's above some of the other guys mentioned, but he is worthy of a mention.