Now that Luka's ball-dominance is getting swept like I said, here's a follow-up....

[3ba11]

Since Luka's skillset has bad teammate fits and bad chemistry (bad brand of ball), how long before he opts for talent-based winning (team-hopping.. all-star team strategy) like other ball-dominators are forced to do? (Lebron)

Big man ball-dominators like Lebron and Luka have the worst teammate fits and chemistry, so they never learn how to win (brand of ball) and are forced to be talent-based winners (team-hopping.. all-star team strategy)..

[90sgoat]

We'll see.

This offseason will say a lot.

This is what Luka wanted when they traded Porzingis and this is the end station.

However, I don't know if you can blame Luka for not being able to win against this all star Warriors team. It's not just so much more talent, it's also an extremely intelligent and well coached team. Closest thing to 80s Celtics beating up on MJ and the Jordaineres.

I have hopes for Luka understanding that he needs to improve on defense and needs to save energy on offense for that.

Then again, get Luka some real talent, basically any other playoff team and he might have won some games here. If instead of Mavs it had been Luka on Clips, now that's a series.

[NBASTATMAN]

Since Luka's skillset has bad teammate fits and bad chemistry (bad brand of ball), how long before he opts for talent-based winning (team-hopping.. all-star team strategy) like other ball-dominators are forced to do? (Lebron)

Big man ball-dominators like Lebron and Luka have the worst teammate fits and chemistry, so they never learn how to win (brand of ball) and are forced to be talent-based winners (team-hopping.. all-star team strategy)..

You were on his ******* the other day,, Wtf u talking about .. LOL .. His problem is not on offense , its how bad he is on defense.. Most of hiis points come in garbage time as well. But still the boy is SUPER NICE

[NBASTATMAN]

We'll see.

This offseason will say a lot.

This is what Luka wanted when they traded Porzingis and this is the end station.

However, I don't know if you can blame Luka for not being able to win against this all star Warriors team. It's not just so much more talent, it's also an extremely intelligent and well coached team. Closest thing to 80s Celtics beating up on MJ and the Jordaineres.

I have hopes for Luka understanding that he needs to improve on defense and needs to save energy on offense for that.

Then again, get Luka some real talent, basically any other playoff team and he might have won some games here. If instead of Mavs it had been Luka on Clips, now that's a series.

the same guy made the first two posts, LOL

[3ba11]

We'll see.

This offseason will say a lot.

This is what Luka wanted when they traded Porzingis and this is the end station.

However, I don't know if you can blame Luka for not being able to win against this all star Warriors team. It's not just so much more talent, it's also an extremely intelligent and well coached team. Closest thing to 80s Celtics beating up on MJ and the Jordaineres.

I have hopes for Luka understanding that he needs to improve on defense and needs to save energy on offense for that.

Then again, get Luka some real talent, basically any other playoff team and he might have won some games here. If instead of Mavs it had been Luka on Clips, now that's a series.


We've seen that Jalen Brunson is literally a dominant player without Luka

Luka's skillset makes everyone stand in the corner, so guys like Jordan Poole would never develop and Wiggins would never have a career year (all-star)

The point is that Luka's skillset imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (team-hopping... all-star team strategy... talent-based winning).

So he can't win organically because of poor brand of ball and therefore needs ready-made stars to win (colluding)

I predict that he will be fed up with the losing and he'll take the Lebron route within 2 years.

at one point in this series, Luka had a zero assisted rate - he isn't an assist target to elevate teammates -his zero assisted rate is so horrific for chemistry that it's hard to articulate how bad that is.

[NBASTATMAN]

We've seen that Jalen Brunson is literally a dominant player without Luka

Luka's skillset makes everyone stand in the corner, so guys like Jordan Poole would never develop and Wiggins would never have a career year (all-star)

The point is that Luka's skillset imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (team-hopping... all-star team strategy... talent-based winning).

So he can't win organically because of poor brand of ball and therefore needs ready-made stars to win (colluding)

I predict that he will be fed up with the losing and he'll take the Lebron route within 2 years.

at one point in this series, Luka had a zero assisted rate - he isn't an assist target to elevate teammates -his zero assisted rate is so horrific for chemistry that it's hard to articulate how bad that is.

i agree on most points but Lebron didnt have the shooters Luka has around him at age 23.. And Lebron actually could defend . I think Luka can defend but he seems not to want to , not sure if he is tired or just doesnt want to try.. OBV he isnt ever going to be a high level defender but he can be decent enuff not to be a huge negative on the defensive end

[3ba11]

i agree on most points but Lebron didnt have the shooters Luka has around him at age 23.. And Lebron actually could defend . I think Luka can defend but he seems not to want to , not sure if he is tired or just doesnt want to try.. OBV he isnt ever going to be a high level defender but he can be decent enuff not to be a huge negative on the defensive end


Lebron also had a 20-30% assisted rate

That's trash for a frontcourt position but great compared to Luka

However, Luka is a far superior scorer that doesn't need a stiff-arm the get 30 or 40.. He's a pure, instinctive scorer with elite iso jumpshooting skill - so he commands doubles, while Lebron doesn't..

These factors explain why Luka was able to carry bed-wetting sidekicks over a top 5 SRS team (carry-job against a good team), which Lebron never did

[DMAVS41]

We've seen that Jalen Brunson is literally a dominant player without Luka

Luka's skillset makes everyone stand in the corner, so guys like Jordan Poole would never develop and Wiggins would never have a career year (all-star)

The point is that Luka's skillset imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (team-hopping... all-star team strategy... talent-based winning).

So he can't win organically because of poor brand of ball and therefore needs ready-made stars to win (colluding)

I predict that he will be fed up with the losing and he'll take the Lebron route within 2 years.

at one point in this series, Luka had a zero assisted rate - he isn't an assist target to elevate teammates -his zero assisted rate is so horrific for chemistry that it's hard to articulate how bad that is.

Jalen Brunson has developed into a player you called "literally dominant" playing with Luka his entire career. What the **** are you talking about?

Guys like Maxi, DFS, Bullock, Bertans, Powell...etc....they can't do anything on their own. If you asked them to start generating offense consistently against the best teams in the league...they'd fail. They aren't those types of players.

[3ba11]

Jalen Brunson has developed into a player you called "literally dominant" playing with Luka his entire career. What the **** are you talking about?

Guys like Maxi, DFS, Bullock, Bertans, Powell...etc....they can't do anything on their own. If you asked them to start generating offense consistently against the best teams in the league...they'd fail. They aren't those types of players.


Brunson plays worse when Luka is on the floor, whereas Poole, Klay and Wiggins play near full capacity alongside Curry's off-ball style

Curry has the best brand of ball... ever... And Luka has literally the worst - this bum had a ZERO ASSISTED RATE at one point in the series - he lacks the skills to be an assist target, which is maybe the biggest hole that a player can have..

His style is playground king style - a rudimentary, beginner skillset that has the worst chemistry ever - go to any playground in America and the playground king is a Luka-style ball-dominator.. it's the easiest way to play

[Micku]

We'll see.

This offseason will say a lot.

This is what Luka wanted when they traded Porzingis and this is the end station.

However, I don't know if you can blame Luka for not being able to win against this all star Warriors team. It's not just so much more talent, it's also an extremely intelligent and well coached team. Closest thing to 80s Celtics beating up on MJ and the Jordaineres.

I have hopes for Luka understanding that he needs to improve on defense and needs to save energy on offense for that.

Then again, get Luka some real talent, basically any other playoff team and he might have won some games here. If instead of Mavs it had been Luka on Clips, now that's a series.

Yeah, this is pretty much similar.

But one thing that people have to keep in mind is that the Mavs defense isn't as effective with the GSW due to the motion offense. They were trapping either Devin Booker or cp3, and punishing them on the other end at the same time. You can't do that with the gsw due to their off ball movement and passing ability. Their ability to spread the floor is amazing too.

Luka needs better talent around him in order to win it all. The Mavs might get there one day, but the GSW, as you said, is too talented, too well coached, and a better IQ. But you still gott'a give the Mavs credit for embarrassing the Suns like that.

[DMAVS41]

Brunson plays worse when Luka is on the floor, whereas Poole, Klay and Wiggins play near full capacity alongside Curry's off-ball style

Curry has the best brand of ball... ever... And Luka has literally the worst

Your argument was that a guy like Poole wouldn't develop...and I simply said that Jalen Brunson developed into a "literally dominant" player, to use your words, while playing with Luka his entire career. So, sorry, you are wrong about that by your own admission.

The style thing is always interesting. Luka getting this team to the WCF with the 2nd best record in the league since February needs to count for something. His help is not great and they've done a lot of winning both in the regular season and playoffs. Beating the Suns...I mean...if Luka's style is literally the worst...how did he and his team win a series against a much more talented roster that, by your definition, plays a better style?

I'd like to see Luka have as good of players around him as Curry does...and see what happens.

As usual, you ignore the actual weak part of Luka's game...his defense...and the Mavs biggest weakness...no center...to put forth some BS narrative about how the style is the problem.

[3ba11]

Yeah, this is pretty much similar.

But one thing that people have to keep in mind is that the Mavs defense isn't as effective with the GSW due to the motion offense. They were trapping either Devin Booker or cp3, and punishing them on the other end at the same time. You can't do that with the gsw due to their off ball movement and passing ability. Their ability to spread the floor is amazing too.

Luka needs better talent around him in order to win it all. The Mavs might get there one day, but the GSW, as you said, is too talented, too well coached, and a better IQ.


You're saying that Luka just needs more talent around him, which is an all-star team strategy (talent-based winning) - anyone can do that - anyone can win with enough supporting talent, but only the best players learn how to actually win (brand of ball) and therefore don't need as much supporting talent.

The 11' Mavs and 04' Pistons didn't win with superior talent - they won with superior chemistry and brand of ball.. Similarly, the Spurs, Warriors and 90's Bulls developed the best brand in the league - that's how organic teams win, so Luka will have to learn brand of ball before he can win organically..

Unfortunately, his skillset prevents good teammate fits, chemistry or brand.. No one can win with a zero assisted rate - do you guys understand that?

Luka can't win like that unless he gets a super-team and it would still mostly lose.. So Luka can't do shit unless he learns to be an assist target, thereby elevating teammates

You think it's random coincidence that Wiggins became an all-star next to Curry?.. He'd be standing in the corner alongside Doncic and everyone would be shitting on him like his tenure in Minnesota

[DMAVS41]

You're saying that Luka just needs more talent around him, which is an all-star team strategy (talent-based winning) - anyone can do that - anyone can win with enough supporting talent, but only the best players learn how to actually win (brand of ball) and therefore don't need as much supporting talent.

The 11' Mavs and 04' Pistons didn't win with superior talent - they won with superior chemistry and brand of ball.. Similarly, the Spurs, Warriors and 90's Bulls developed the best brand in the league - that's how organic teams win, so Luka will have to learn brand of ball before he can win organically..

Unfortunately, his skillset prevents good teammate fits, chemistry or brand.. No one can win with a zero assisted rate - do you guys understand that?

Luka can't win like that unless he gets a super-team and it would still mostly lose.. So Luka can't do shit unless he learns to be an assist target, thereby elevating teammates

You think it's random coincidence that Wiggins became an all-star next to Curry?.. He'd be standing in the corner alongside Doncic and everyone would be shitting on him like his tenure in Minnesota

Except not anyone can do that. Some of the best players ever get quality teams and lose year after year after year. How is Durant doing for his career outside the Warriors? He's been on super teams according to your standards...if it's so easy to win...why hasn't he? He checks all your boxes...

Curry's Warriors had the 20th ranked offense last year and the 17th this year. Players matter way more than style.

You don't know what Luka can or can't do...he's 23 and hasn't come close to playing with a loaded roster...and holding him to some absurd standard of winning a title playing with this team is just idiotic...even for you.

[3ba11]

Except not anyone can do that. Some of the best players ever get quality teams and lose year after year after year. How is Durant doing for his career outside the Warriors? He's been on super teams according to your standards...if it's so easy to win...why hasn't he? He checks all your boxes...

Curry's Warriors had the 20th ranked offense last year and the 17th this year. Players matter way more than style.

You don't know what Luka can or can't do...he's 23 and hasn't come close to playing with a loaded roster...and holding him to some absurd standard of winning a title playing with this team is just idiotic...even for you.


Luka had a zero assisted rate - that's literally the worst brand of ball EVER

He literally dribbles around like a bummy playground king - he sucks

Listen to Kobe tell it:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DR4Y6y4CSsg&t=01m03s

[DMAVS41]

Luka had a zero assisted rate - that's literally the worst brand of ball EVER

He literally dribbles around like a bummy playground king - he sucks

Listen to Kobe tell it:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DR4Y6y4CSsg&t=01m03s

Does Kevin Durant suck at basketball?

[3ba11]

Does Kevin Durant suck at basketball?


Durant is a lot better than Luka, that's for sure - KD always killed it with a good coach (Kerr) and even carried CancerBrook and a nobody coach to the Finals in 2012 - Luka wouldn't do shit with CancerBrook

I think Luka's brand of ball is worse than Lebron's - that's saying something because Lebron is the shining example of a bad brand causing favored talent to underachieve - his preseason favorites fell to Finals underdog or loser for 6 straight years (11-16')

[DMAVS41]

Durant is a lot better than Luka, that's for sure - KD always killed it with a good coach (Kerr) and even carried CancerBrook and a nobody coach to the Finals in 2012 - Luka wouldn't do shit with CancerBrook

I think Luka's brand of ball is worse than Lebron's - that's saying something because Lebron is the shining example of a bad brand causing favored talent to underachieve - his preseason favorites fell to Finals underdog or loser for 6 straight years (11-16')

And yet...Durant can't win a damn thing without a super team....:confusedshrug:

[RRR3]

And yet...Durant can't win a damn thing without a super team....:confusedshrug:
Can’t even consistently play well in the playoffs without one tbh

[kawhileonard2]

And yet...Durant can't win a damn thing without a super team....:confusedshrug:

Nor Lebron. He has to switch teams to try to win and this with guys who won it all as the man.

[Micku]

You're saying that Luka just needs more talent around him, which is an all-star team strategy (talent-based winning) - anyone can do that - anyone can win with enough supporting talent, but only the best players learn how to actually win (brand of ball) and therefore don't need as much supporting talent.

The 11' Mavs and 04' Pistons didn't win with superior talent - they won with superior chemistry and brand of ball.. Similarly, the Spurs, Warriors and 90's Bulls developed the best brand in the league - that's how organic teams win, so Luka will have to learn brand of ball before he can win organically..

Unfortunately, his skillset prevents good teammate fits, chemistry or brand.. No one can win with a zero assisted rate - do you guys understand that?

Luka can't win like that unless he gets a super-team and it would still mostly lose.. So Luka can't do shit unless he learns to be an assist target, thereby elevating teammates

You think it's random coincidence that Wiggins became an all-star next to Curry?.. He'd be standing in the corner alongside Doncic and everyone would be shitting on him like his tenure in Minnesota

I'm not saying he needs a superteam. I'm saying he needs better talent than he already has around him. You either need talent or players that fit either within the system or your star player.

The 04 Pistons definitely have more talent than this team. And the 11 Mavs hit their peak at the right time.

But Luka is only 23. The Mavs weren't even expected to go this far. It's already very impressive that he turned his game up in the playoffs and the Mavs were able to get pass the Suns and the Jazz. But the GSW play style is just on another lvl.

I understand you saying about Luka and his ball dominance, but lets not act like you can't win with that style. It's an argument whatever or not that style maximize the team. I'm not saying I disagree, but I'm saying the squad that he has surrounding him is not going to cut it imo. They need to either get better with the chemistry, change their style, or find better talent.

And as people said, not everyone can win with superior talent. The Suns had better talent than the Mavs this year and lost. The Magic in 95, I think had better talent and lost. The Lakers in 98. The Thunder with KD, Westbrook. 84 Lakers lost against the the Celtics. They also lost against the Rockets. Miami lost against the Mavs in 11. Etc, etc.

[DMAVS41]

I'm not saying he needs a superteam. I'm saying he needs better talent than he already has around him. You either need talent or players that fit either within the system or your star player.

The 04 Pistons definitely have more talent than this team. And the 11 Mavs hit their peak at the right time.

But Luka is only 23. The Mavs weren't even expected to go this far. It's already very impressive that he turned his game up in the playoffs and the Mavs were able to get pass the Suns and the Jazz. But the GSW play style is just on another lvl.

I understand you saying about Luka and his ball dominance, but lets not act like you can't win with that style. It's an argument whatever or not that style maximize the team. I'm not saying I disagree, but I'm saying the squad that he has surrounding him is not going to cut it imo. They need to either get better with the chemistry, change their style, or find better talent.

And as people said, not everyone can win with superior talent. The Suns had better talent than the Mavs this year and lost. The Magic in 95, I think had better talent and lost. The Lakers in 98. The Thunder with KD, Westbrook. 84 Lakers lost against the the Celtics. They also lost against the Rockets. Miami lost against the Mavs in 11. Etc, etc.

Nobody without a huge bias looks at this Mavs supporting cast and says the problem is Luka and that they have enough to win a title.

They are really good, better than I thought they'd be...but they aren't title caliber.

They need a center and at least one more legit rotation player that isn't a defensive liability.

[RRR3]

All these Luka threads just confirm you think he’s a threat to surpass your hero Kobe on the all time list, OP.

[3ba11]

.
For reference:


09' Mo Will... 17.2 PER... 2.3 BPM... 3.1 VORP... 0.080 WS/48.. 58.8 ts
89' Pippen.... 14.9 PER... 0.4 BPM... 1.5 VORP... 0.087 WS/48.. 52.4 ts
90' Pippen.... 16.3 PER... 1.8 BPM... 3.0 VORP... 0.087 WS/48.. 56.1 ts






Nobody without a huge bias looks at this Mavs supporting cast and says the problem is Luka





No one said Wiggins would be an all-star addition - you would've been laughed off this forum if you said that before he arrived in the Bay Area

Curry's game simply allows guys to grow and play to capacity, while Luka would have an underwhelming team with Wiggins just like he did with Porzingas.

Essentially, this season is Luka's ceiling with anything but a super-team or another elite-scoring 1st option stud alongside him - their brand of you-turn-my-turn would yield lukewarm, underdog Finals teams and barely meet this expectation (aka 4/10.. oh wait.. wrong player ;)






that they have enough to win a title..





A good comparison for these Mavs would be the 89' Bulls assuming those Bulls never got better.. So imagine that those Bulls peaked in those ECF and never got better - maybe they make a Finals in a down year like the 21' Suns but they never get over the hump with a skillset that's only useful in a Doug Collins' offense.

That's where Luka is at right now.. :confusedshrug:

And don't bother with the Pippen myths and fake media awards - it's funny because the 09' Cavs had the 3rd-ranked defense compared to 19th for the 90' Bulls, while Mo was far superior to Pippen across the board offensively (stats above).. So Lebron started with a better team on both sides of the ball, yet Jordan beat him to titles - Jordan won the next year in 91', while Lebron lost again with homecourt in 10' despite adding Jamison/Shaq to a 66-win team.

The point is that Jordan's skillset allowed the development of a better brand of ball movement that elevated teammates more than ball-dominance.. This superior brand allowed winning titles without forming super-teams, while Lebron and Luka's ball-dominance requires super-teams.. We've seen it all before.






They need a center





The Warriors don't seem to need much of a center because they face worn down teams/offenses, which lowers their own defensive requirements.. Opponents are worn down by zippy ball movement, which leaves less capacity for offense as the game wears on - they eventually can't match the spurts and runs of the Warriors.

Otoh, defenses get to rest against Luka's ball-dominance, so they have more capacity for offense as the game or series progresses - Luka-ball and Lebron-ball require their teams to have maximum defensive requirements because the opponent isn't being worn down by a superior brand of ball.. Ball-dominance loses the attrition battle - the best defense is a good offense - a tenet of all competition.

[NBAGOAT]

Stop making these random comparisons. What current role player on the Mavs develops into a star like pippen did on another team? I said role player so I’m not counting brunson who has developed already as DMAVs said. Don’t put too much stock into 3 games vs a terrible Utah defense, most people think he would suddenly be an all star on like the Knicks.

Edit: also the warriors do very well at the center position with looney or dray as the small ball 5

[Phoenix]

Stop making these random comparisons. What current role player on the Mavs develops into a star like pippen did on another team? I said role player so I’m not counting brunson.

Oh man, why'd you go there? You've just opened the door to OP saying Brunson is better than Pippen.

[NBAGOAT]

Oh man, why'd you go there? You've just opened the door to OP saying Brunson is better than Pippen.

Lol my bad. I guess I’ll have to concede current brunson is better than young pippen

Edit: it is comical how 3ball glosses over 89 being pippens 2nd year and how it’s completely normal for a player to take a few years to develop. Brunson peaked this year he’s in year 4

[RRR3]

Oh man, why'd you go there? You've just opened the door to OP saying Brunson is better than Pippen.
He already said that the other day. “Porzingas” is better to according to him.

[DMAVS41]

So the first claim was that players can't develop with Luka...yet you call Brunson great...how did he develop into a great player playing his entire career next to Luka?

The next claim is that the Warriors don't need much of a center? They rely on Green / Looney...what are you talking about? Green / Looney is a great combo to have and if you switched Green / Looney for Powell / Maxi...the Mavs would easily win this series.

The next claim is that Lebron ball doesn't work...yet it did and does work and it beat the very team you say plays the best style.

Like I said before...in my time on here...people have made the following claims...

Dirk will never win. Lebron will never win. Giannis will never win. Now it is Luka will never win. Obviously I can't see the future and it is really hard to build teams in the NBA, especially in Dallas, but I'll say the same thing about Luka I did with Dirk. If he gets true championship level help...you'd be an idiot to bet against him.

We'll see how it all plays out.

[Full Court]

To be fair, Luka carrying this team to the conference finals is quite an achievement.

[Phoenix]

Lol my bad. I guess I’ll have to concede current brunson is better than young pippen

Edit: it is comical how 3ball glosses over 89 being pippens 2nd year and how it’s completely normal for a player to take a few years to develop. Brunson peaked this year he’s in year 4

3ball is arguing with hindsight. Back in 89 MJ was getting criticized as a ball hog with a 'bad brand of ball' that would never win a ring chasing scoring titles while his peers Bird and Magic were collecting rings. Eventually he 'begrudgingly' bought into a system( he didn't like the fact that it may cause a slight reduction in his scoring output, Phil Jackson is on record IIRC) that yielded the best team results because it maxed everyone else on the floor, while MJ could basically play the insurance role. I vividly remember some of those 90's games.....there were times MJ would hardly be involved in the offense at first ( past being a decoy) while they were dumping the ball into Cartwright trying to get him touches, or trying to get Horace an elbow shot or Paxson's jumper in rhythm...those are the players that need to be kept engaged and the best time is at the beginning, so they're there at the end. If the offense wasn't working, that's when MJ would take over.

It was a 'perfect' system as far as utilizing all components on the floor, but it took 6-7 years to get to that, for players to develop, coaching changes, for MJ to mature past being a solo act. 3ball argues as if MJ's ass wasn't getting swept the first 3 years of his career and then losing to the Pistons like clockwork 3 years in a row. Yeah MJ was the best player on the floor, just like Luka, but losing to the superior team. It was a process, the same process that Luka is going through now and having this clown make thread after thread about like this is unprecedented or that his obsession wasn't going through the exact same shit 35 years ago. Luka may go on to win a few titles, or he may not. In 1988, nobody knew if MJ would ever win so the 'I told you so' bullshit 3ball is pulling is disingenuous and intellectually dishonest. The funny thing is, Luka could for all we don't know win the title two years from now, then 3ball will do his 'now I'm gonna 180 and say Luka's top 10' schtick. Dude's a straight up jackass.

IMO these are the next steps in the process:

For Luka- Get in better shape, drop about 10-15 pounds to help with conditioning. I'd like to see him more off-ball( will address that below) and work on catch and shoots. Make quicker decisions with the ball, less pound the rock. Some of that is personnel, some of that is strategy, some of that is Luka's tendencies. The good thing, which the moron who made the thread seems to forget is Luka is 23 and has, literally, another decade at least of superstar play barring injury. Time is on his side, contrary to this fool acting like Luka has either maxed out already or can't move beyond how he plays now.

For the Mavs- they're on the right path moving forward. Kidd's insistence on stressing defense was important. They need a 'legit' 2nd all-star, ideally a playmaker that will allow Luka to be a better assist target and not have to be so responsible for generating everything. That evolves Luka, it evolves the offense. Another 3 and D guy would help. Brunson, Dimwiddie, Harddaway Jr are nice pieces, but them rotating between being the 2nd scorer behind Luka isn't going to win a title. Porzingis wasn't a championship level 2nd option either.

[ShawkFactory]

.
For reference:


09' Mo Will... 17.2 PER... 2.3 BPM... 3.1 VORP... 0.080 WS/48.. 58.8 ts
89' Pippen.... 14.9 PER... 0.4 BPM... 1.5 VORP... 0.087 WS/48.. 52.4 ts
90' Pippen.... 16.3 PER... 1.8 BPM... 3.0 VORP... 0.087 WS/48.. 56.1 ts






No one said Wiggins would be an all-star addition - you would've been laughed off this forum if you said that before he arrived in the Bay Area

Curry's game simply allows guys to grow and play to capacity, while Luka would have an underwhelming team with Wiggins just like he did with Porzingas.

Essentially, this season is Luka's ceiling with anything but a super-team or another elite-scoring 1st option stud alongside him - their brand of you-turn-my-turn would yield lukewarm, underdog Finals teams and barely meet this expectation (aka 4/10.. oh wait.. wrong player ;)






A good comparison for these Mavs would be the 89' Bulls assuming those Bulls never got better.. So imagine that those Bulls peaked in those ECF and never got better - maybe they make a Finals in a down year like the 21' Suns but they never get over the hump with a skillset that's only useful in a Doug Collins' offense.

That's where Luka is at right now.. :confusedshrug:

And don't bother with the Pippen myths and fake media awards - it's funny because the 09' Cavs had the 3rd-ranked defense compared to 19th for the 90' Bulls, while Mo was far superior to Pippen across the board offensively (stats above).. So Lebron started with a better team on both sides of the ball, yet Jordan beat him to titles - Jordan won the next year in 91', while Lebron lost again with homecourt in 10' despite adding Jamison/Shaq to a 66-win team.

The point is that Jordan's skillset allowed the development of a better brand of ball movement that elevated teammates more than ball-dominance.. This superior brand allowed winning titles without forming super-teams, while Lebron and Luka's ball-dominance requires super-teams.. We've seen it all before.






The Warriors don't seem to need much of a center because they face worn down teams/offenses, which lowers their own defensive requirements.. Opponents are worn down by zippy ball movement, which leaves less capacity for offense as the game wears on - they eventually can't match the spurts and runs of the Warriors.

Otoh, defenses get to rest against Luka's ball-dominance, so they have more capacity for offense as the game or series progresses - Luka-ball and Lebron-ball require their teams to have maximum defensive requirements because the opponent isn't being worn down by a superior brand of ball.. Ball-dominance loses the attrition battle - the best defense is a good offense - a tenet of all competition.

What a miserable basketball existence you live. Literally can’t enjoy anyone or anything.

[SouBeachTalents]

What a miserable basketball existence you live. Literally can’t enjoy anyone or anything.
That miserable existence extends WAY beyond basketball :lol

[GimmeThat]

What a miserable basketball existence you live. Literally can’t enjoy anyone or anything.

when you down that beer, just remember that it's not even miserable, it's just a complete lack of context in which that beer will turn it into an empty space.

"beers give you calories too, clearly, it can be used as a substitute for food."

[SouBeachTalents]

^ Ditto for this guy.

[tpols]

Jalen Brunson has developed into a player you called "literally dominant" playing with Luka his entire career. What the **** are you talking about?

Guys like Maxi, DFS, Bullock, Bertans, Powell...etc....they can't do anything on their own. If you asked them to start generating offense consistently against the best teams in the league...they'd fail. They aren't those types of players.

Luka, Brunson, and Dinwiddie can all get their own shot. For the heavy iso style they play as a team im not sure you could even fit a 4th ball dominator out there.

[tpols]

No one said Wiggins would be an all-star addition - you would've been laughed off this forum if you said that before he arrived in the Bay Area

Curry's game simply allows guys to grow and play to capacity, while Luka would have an underwhelming team with Wiggins just like he did with Porzingas.


Bingo.

He'd essentially be Dorian Finney-Smith on the Mavs. Just spotting up and playing defense. Wouldn't get the opportunity to be a 20 ppg player next to the ball dominance of luka, Brunson, and Dinwiddie. Where as the dubs swing the ball around a ton and let him have ample touches.

The guy that would get hurt the most on the Mavs though is Dray. Imagine trying to slot Dray into a play finishing role instead of using him as a playmaker the way the dubs do. Draymond Green may be the worst play finishing PF in the league. He can't shoot from anywhere and teams sag 20 feet off him. I get he has defense but he would cripple their offense and spacing and be borderline unplayable.

[DMAVS41]

Luka, Brunson, and Dinwiddie can all get their own shot. For the heavy iso style they play as a team im not sure you could even fit a 4th ball dominator out there.

ISO is not what I’m talking about. Most of those guys can’t even pump fake and drive without turning it over. Dinwiddie isn’t a guy you want out there much if the goal is a title. For winning in the regular season and a round in the playoffs? Sure, this team is fine. For a title though, it isn’t.

No center is the biggest problem.

For example, if you replaced Powell with Looney and Dinwiddie with Desmond Bane…you’d have a much better team.

[tpols]

ISO is not what I’m talking about. Most of those guys can’t even pump fake and drive without turning it over. Dinwiddie isn’t a guy you want out there much if the goal is a title. For winning in the regular season and a round in the playoffs? Sure, this team is fine. For a title though, it isn’t.

No center is the biggest problem.

For example, if you replaced Powell with Looney and Dinwiddie with Desmond Bane…you’d have a much better team.

I honestly don't think that would make any difference at all. Looney is just a middling role player and Dinwiddie is better than bane. Powell would be catching all the oops he could handle on the dubs.

[DMAVS41]

I honestly don't think that would make any difference at all. Looney is just a middling role player and Dinwiddie is better than bane. Powell would be catching all the oops he could handle on the dubs.

Disagree strongly.

[ShawkFactory]

I honestly don't think that would make any difference at all. Looney is just a middling role player and Dinwiddie is better than bane. Powell would be catching all the oops he could handle on the dubs.

Absolutely not.

[Hey Yo]

I honestly don't think that would make any difference at all. Looney is just a middling role player and Dinwiddie is better than bane. Powell would be catching all the oops he could handle on the dubs.

Dumb ^^^

[SouBeachTalents]

I honestly don't think that would make any difference at all. Looney is just a middling role player and Dinwiddie is better than bane. Powell would be catching all the oops he could handle on the dubs.
Another turrible take :lol

[3ba11]

That miserable existence extends WAY beyond basketball :lol


You're life is almost certainly nothing compared to mine. You're way too dumb

[3ba11]

What a miserable basketball existence you live. Literally can’t enjoy anyone or anything.


Who said I'm not enjoying this?

Having correct predictions and being right on everything?

And then laughing at you guys for being slow and not knowing anything?

This is great.. you're the one that sounds miserable like you aren't enjoying this ragdolling.. Chin up buddy - only 1 more game

[tpols]

Another turrible take :lol

You think so? Prove it. I can.

[tpols]

Absolutely not.

Dinwiddie has averaged 16/4/3 on 62 TS with Dallas. Bane averaged 18/3/2 on 59 TS this year. Dinwiddie right now has better numbers vs the warriors than bane did a couple weeks ago.

Bane scored 14 ppg in the warrior series which is less than dinwiddie is putting up right now. To act like he's moving any needle in this series is a joke. They just lost with Dinwiddie putting up 26 on 54% shooting.

You guys cant justify your position.

[Ne 1]

The only reason they’ve had to played that style is a result of management clearly not putting enough around them i.e. Lebron and Luka

[ArbitraryWater]

Dinwiddie has indeed been a total joke.

[ShawkFactory]

Who said I'm not enjoying this?

Having correct predictions and being right on everything?

And then laughing at you guys for being slow and not knowing anything?

This is great.. you're the one that sounds miserable like you aren't enjoying this ragdolling.. Chin up buddy - only 1 more game

Huge LOL.

Anyway...you're enjoyment is based on hating.

Just because child molesters enjoy molesting children doesn't make it not miserable.

[ShawkFactory]

Dinwiddie has averaged 16/4/3 on 62 TS with Dallas. Bane averaged 18/3/2 on 59 TS this year. Dinwiddie right now has better numbers vs the warriors than bane did a couple weeks ago.

Bane scored 14 ppg in the warrior series which is less than dinwiddie is putting up right now. To act like he's moving any needle in this series is a joke. They just lost with Dinwiddie putting up 26 on 54% shooting.

You guys cant justify your position.

:lol

You don't need to justify a position that's just blatantly a fact. Bane is a better player than Dinwiddie in every way other than ball-stopping ISO scoring. Literally the only thing Dinwiddie better at.

The numbers, both raw and advanced, support this. You can try your tiny sample size argument if you want but you and I both know it ain't happening.

[tpols]

:lol

You don't need to justify a position that's just blatantly a fact. Bane is a better player than Dinwiddie in every way other than ball-stopping ISO scoring. Literally the only thing Dinwiddie better at.

The numbers, both raw and advanced, support this. You can try your tiny sample size argument if you want but you and I both know it ain't happening.

Dinwiddie topped out at 21/7/4 as the best player on a team that made the playoffs. Bane has played two years and has averaged 14/4/3 for his career. With Dallas Dinwiddie has the same counting stats as bane but shot on higher TS for the year. So no... hes definitely not better at everything than dinwiddie.

Furthermore Bane averaged 14 ppg vs Golden State... literally the team Dinwiddie is facing right now... And bane was outscored, and outshot in more minutes played by Dinwiddie so far against this common opponent. You swap banes performance last series for dinwiddies current performance and dubs are winning by even more.

[ShawkFactory]

Dinwiddie topped out at 21/7/4 as the best player on a team that made the playoffs. Bane has played two years and has averaged 14/4/3 for his career. With Dallas Dinwiddie has the same counting stats as bane but shot on higher TS for the year. So no... hes definitely not better at everything than dinwiddie.

Furthermore Bane averaged 14 ppg vs Golden State... literally the team Dinwiddie is facing right now... And bane was outscored, and outshot in more minutes played by Dinwiddie so far against this common opponent. You swap banes performance last series for Dinwiddie a current performance and dubs are winning by even more.

Lol that's not how that works. Bane plays sound defense, moves the ball around, moves well off ball, is an elite shooter, etc. Dinwiddie a volume shooting ball-stopper with typically poor efficiency. That's the only thing he does well.

And this...


Bane has played two years and has averaged 14/4/3 for his career

...is an incredibly dishonest take. Your whole post is.

[tpols]

How is that a dishonest take? Those are literally his averages. And he averaged 18/4/3 this year. Shot 59 TS. Dinwiddie shot on 62 TS. How is Dinwiddie inefficient? He's had great efficiency with Dallas.

And with the nets when he averaged 21/7/4 he shot on 54 TS which is just average but he was the main focus of a defense most of the year while bane is clearly behind Ja and JJJ in the pecking order. Shit even Dillon brooks took more shots.

Overall Spencer Dinwiddie is a more dynamic weapon than bane who is just a role player right now. He plays defense, spots up and shoots, and moves the ball. That's a high functioning role player. Dinwiddie is borderline All Star talent.

[r15mohd]

Who said I'm not enjoying this?

Having correct predictions and being right on everything?

And then laughing at you guys for being slow and not knowing anything?

This is great.. you're the one that sounds miserable like you aren't enjoying this ragdolling.. Chin up buddy - only 1 more game

you throw out multiple takes from all angles and then bump the one that fits when the opportune time comes...that's far from being right.

[ShawkFactory]

How is that a dishonest take? Those are literally his averages. And he averaged 18/4/3 this year. Shot 59 TS. Dinwiddie shot on 62 TS. How is Dinwiddie inefficient? He's had great efficiency with Dallas.

And with the nets when he averaged 21/7/4 he shot on 54 TS which is just average but he was the main focus of a defense most of the year while bane is clearly behind Ja and JJJ in the pecking order. Shit even Dillon brooks took more shots.

Overall Spencer Dinwiddie is a more dynamic weapon than bane who is just a role player right now. He plays defense, spots up and shoots, and moves the ball. That's a high functioning role player. Dinwiddie is borderline All Star talent.

You know exactly why it's dishonest.

Bane is the second best player on the Grizzlies.

Dinwiddie, as previously stated, is a ball-stopping typically inefficient volume scorer. A lot of people can score 20 a game playing that way.

[3ba11]

you throw out multiple takes from all angles and then bump the one that fits when the opportune time comes...that's far from being right.


All my threads have a common theme of shitting on ball-dominant teams and praising ball movement teams or players

It's worked out quite well and resulted in my predictions being more accurate than most other posters

This thread is a great example but there's many more

[tpols]

You know exactly why it's dishonest.

Bane is the second best player on the Grizzlies.

I listed exactly what banes put up and what he put up for the year this year and what he averaged against a common playoff opponent. I'm literally giving you every single data point and you have absolutely no rebuttal to it so far.

And nah.. Jackson Jr is easily better. Wow. Did you really just say that?

[ShawkFactory]

I listed exactly what banes put up and what he put up for the year this year and what he averaged against a common playoff opponent. I'm literally giving you every single data point and you have absolutely no rebuttal to it so far.

And nah.. Jackson Jr is easily better. Wow. Did you really just say that?

I've already given one. I didn't say the numbers are dishonest. I said your take was. Why bring what Bane did his rookie year into the equation? Or a 3 game sample size? Logically speaking, that is dishonest.

JJJ is far too inconsistent offensively. He isn't better than Bane at all.

[r15mohd]

All my threads have a common theme of shitting on ball-dominant teams and praising ball movement teams or players

It's worked out quite well and resulted in my predictions being more accurate than most other posters

This thread is a great example but there's many more

in the past year you've done 180s on Kawhi Giannis and Curry ... dont talk about being more accurate when you try to play all sides and bring up the rhetoric when convenient.

[bdonovan]

We've seen that Jalen Brunson is literally a dominant player without Luka

Luka's skillset makes everyone stand in the corner, so guys like Jordan Poole would never develop and Wiggins would never have a career year (all-star)

The point is that Luka's skillset imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (team-hopping... all-star team strategy... talent-based winning).

So he can't win organically because of poor brand of ball and therefore needs ready-made stars to win (colluding)

I predict that he will be fed up with the losing and he'll take the Lebron route within 2 years.

at one point in this series, Luka had a zero assisted rate - he isn't an assist target to elevate teammates -his zero assisted rate is so horrific for chemistry that it's hard to articulate how bad that is.

That's exactly it. The superstar on the team cultivates the offensive rhthym for the team. If you have an ISO type player who does not focus on team ball (ie: Luka's 3 assists in the last game), you will never know how good that person's teammates are. You'll never find out because their talents aren't cultivated.

So Luka fans who call themselves Mav Fans (but really aren't since they only recognize the contributions of one player on the team) think they know Doncic's teammates are poor, but they are merely observing the end result of Luka's self-focused offense.

Now you have people saying the Warriors are stacked. Where were they all year? For most of the year, the best offensive option after Curry was Andrew Wiggins- someone no one thought anything of until he found his groove in Curry's motion offense (just like many unheralded players did, only to sink back into obscurity after they left GSW).

Personally I say let them slumber. Mavs fans (actually 'luka fans') will keep subbing in other teammates for Luka and they will get the SAME RESULT.

[ShawkFactory]

That's exactly it. The superstar on the team cultivates the offensive rhthym for the team. If you have an ISO type player who does not focus on team ball (ie: Luka's 3 assists in the last game), you will never know how good that person's teammates are. You'll never find out because their talents aren't cultivated.

So Luka fans who call themselves Mav Fans (but really aren't since they only recognize the contributions of one player on the team) think they know Doncic's teammates are poor, but they are merely observing the end result of Luka's self-focused offense.

Now you have people saying the Warriors are stacked. Where were they all year? For most of the year and even now, the best offensive option after Curry is Andrew Wiggins- someone no one thought anything of until he found his groove in Curry's motion offense (just like many unheralded players did, only to sink back into obscurity after they left GSW).

Personally I say let them slumber. Mavs "fans" (actually 'luka fans') will keep subbing in other teammates for Luka and they will get the SAME RESULT.

Curry's offense?

[tpols]

That's exactly it. The superstar on the team cultivates the offensive rhthym for the team. If you have an ISO type player who does not focus on team ball (ie: Luka's 3 assists in the last game), you will never know how good that person's teammates are. You'll never find out because their talents aren't cultivated.

So Luka fans who call themselves Mav Fans (but really aren't since they only recognize the contributions of one player on the team) think they know Doncic's teammates are poor, but they are merely observing the end result of Luka's self-focused offense.

Now you have people saying the Warriors are stacked. Where were they all year? For most of the year, the best offensive option after Curry was Andrew Wiggins- someone no one thought anything of until he found his groove in Curry's motion offense (just like many unheralded players did, only to sink back into obscurity after they left GSW).

Personally I say let them slumber. Mavs fans (actually 'luka fans') will keep subbing in other teammates for Luka and they will get the SAME RESULT.

Great post. People want to transplant the warriors players after they've been maximized into finished products in a high level system already. Its totally bogus.

[NBAGOAT]

I listed exactly what banes put up and what he put up for the year this year and what he averaged against a common playoff opponent. I'm literally giving you every single data point and you have absolutely no rebuttal to it so far.

And nah.. Jackson Jr is easily better. Wow. Did you really just say that?

No bane is, Jackson is too foul prone so rarely plays 30mpg. Bane put up a 3.6 epm dinwiddie put up a 0.5. You can take out the wizards games he won’t be higher. Dinwiddie is having a good series vs GS but yea overall in the playoffs he’s putting up 14/3 56ts% bane put up 19/2 59ts% with significantly better defense.

[DMAVS41]

No bane is, Jackson is too foul prone so rarely plays 30mpg. Bane put up a 3.6 epm dinwiddie put up a 0.5. You can take out the wizards games he won’t be higher. Dinwiddie is having a good series vs GS but yea overall in the playoffs he’s putting up 14/3 56ts% bane put up 19/2 59ts% with significantly better defense.

Nobody, not even tpols...would rather have Dinwiddie over Bane on a team trying to win a title...nobody....especially around a player like Luka.

He does not believe what he's typing.

[Micku]

I think there is to something with style of play and being ball dominant.

Like I do prefer the way the GSW are playing because it's less dependent on one player is let the offense flow do motion. But every team is a bit different and how to make the most out of the team potential. Usually it does resolve around your star player, but how you play the star player and role players, and the fit matters too.

Luka holds the ball a lot, but they are also overachieving these POs. I didn't think they have the talent to even beat the Suns, but they did it anyway. But the same defensive tactics won't work with the GSW due to how they played the offense, and the talent that they have. I'm not too sure if the Mavs would have to change how Luka plays and that will maximize the team potential with the current roster or what we are seeing is the max potential.

But no matter what, they don't really have the talent imo to be title contenders. Give Luka teammates that either fit his play style and/or better players and I think the league gott'a watch out. Or Luka will play more off the ball.

We'll see. Luka is only 23. Extremely young.

[1987_Lakers]

"Swept like I said". LOL

[90sgoat]

Luka even set a screen lol.

Has Lebron ever set an on ball screen?

[GrayGoat]

Op after Luka defeats the warriors: “ I have Luka in my top 10”

[NBAGOAT]

Luka even set a screen lol.

Has Lebron ever set an on ball screen?

The hell is this, cavs quite a bit of Kyrie lebron pnr to get good switches for either

[Shooter]

Will 3ball ever get a thread correct?

Ever?

[GrayGoat]

Will 3ball ever get a thread correct?

Ever?
3ball now has Luka in his top 10

[Shooter]

3ball now has Luka in his top 10

:roll::roll::roll:


hE pRovED mE wRonG - 3nut

[Axe]

3ball now has Luka in his top 10
:biggums:

Too soon tho lol

[8Ball]

3ball now has Luka in his top 10

Top 5*

[Ne 1]

Since Luka's skillset has bad teammate fits and bad chemistry (bad brand of ball), how long before he opts for talent-based winning (team-hopping.. all-star team strategy) like other ball-dominators are forced to do? (Lebron)

Big man ball-dominators like Lebron and Luka have the worst teammate fits and chemistry, so they never learn how to win (brand of ball) and are forced to be talent-based winners (team-hopping.. all-star team strategy)..

So apparently winning 10 Conference Finals and 4 Rings isn't success.... so who is this perfect player that has been playing right and winning all the Titles??

[3ba11]

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/5d407f2b4557bc000155cc04/1589577107857-2QGQ1IN11IHWL6IXC6AE/jordan+locker+cigar.gif

[AlternativeAcc.]

Next you're gonna predict a 1 seed to beat a play-in team...

Genius bro

The team with 5 all Stars beat the inexperienced 1 star team. Shocking result

[Mask the Embiid]

Everybody tough when they Beating up on bee keepers and cp0’s….everybody tough :oldlol:

[ShawkFactory]

3ball itt:


Since Luka's skillset has bad teammate fits and bad chemistry (bad brand of ball)

3ball in the next thread:


Luka commands doubles so his bum teammates can start going off

Yikes

[3ba11]

3ball itt:



3ball in the next thread:



Yikes


Yes both can be true.

He can possess part of what it takes to elevate teammates (commanding doubles), but not all (off-ball)

[ShawkFactory]

Yes both can be true.

He can possess part of what it takes to elevate teammates (commanding doubles), but not all (off-ball)

How can you agree that his teammates are bums that Luka allows to go off...but blame the brand of ball for the loss?

For someone who supposedly prides themselves on consistency no less.