Brunson at 22/5/4 on 61% TS... MJ took the 89' Pistons to 6 game with Pippen at 9 ppg

[3ba11]

So in his 4th healthy season, Luka isn't measuring up to the goat standard

Jordan always won the title with a high seed seed and 22/5/4 from his sidekick - the reason that Luka isn't competitive with that kind of help is due to brand of ball

[TheGoatest]

jordon never led a team to a championship with his #2 scorer averaging 15.9 ppg though.

[Hey Yo]

89 Pippen watched Jordon quit in that ECF.

[Phoenix]

Who asked?

[ShawkFactory]

Who asked?

Forreal. I don't remember anyone saying that Luka is the best player in the league right now much less the GOAT.

[SouBeachTalents]

After the Bulls took a 2-1 lead

Game 4: 23/2/4 on 5/15
Game 5: 18/5/9 on just 8 shot attempts
Game 6: 32/4/13, definitely good production, but had 8 turnovers and shot 5/12 from the FT line

These were 3 games the Bulls all lost by single digits, 2 at home, so a winnable series if Jordan doesn't have such subpar performances.

[Phoenix]

Orlando Woolridge at 23/6/2 61% TS. MJ couldn't manage a .500 record nor win more than one game in the playoffs.

I mean, since we're making dumb analogies.

[3ba11]

jordon never led a team to a championship with his #2 scorer averaging 15.9 ppg though.


Lebron only averaged 25.9, which Jordan never did because he didn't have a super-team where everyone could share the wealth among stars.. Jordan carried the load every year, not just a one-off Eastern Conference run.

Jordan 3-peated with his sidekick at 17 on 41% and worse in the Finals, while Wade averaged 20 and Lebron 25 in the 13' Finals - so Lebron always needed an equal-scoring partner in the Finals and never defeated maximum defensive attention (never carried scoring load in Finals)

[Phoenix]

Forreal. I don't remember anyone saying that Luka is the best player in the league right now much less the GOAT.

I think if everyone just replied with that, it would kill the threads off quick.

[Phoenix]

Lebron only averaged 25.9, which Jordan never did because he didn't have a super-team where everyone could share the wealth among stars.. Jordan carried the load every year, not just a one-off Eastern Conference run.

Jordan 3-peated with his sidekick at 17 on 41% and worse in the Finals, while Wade averaged 20 and Lebron 25 in the 13' Finals - so Lebron always needed an equal-scoring partner in the Finals and never defeated maximum defensive attention (never carried scoring load in Finals)

Who asked?

[3ba11]

Orlando Woolridge at 23/6/2 61% TS. MJ couldn't manage a .500 record nor win more than one game in the playoffs.

I mean, since we're making dumb analogies.


Jordan always won the title with a high seed seed and 22/5/4 from his sidekick - the reason that Luka isn't competitive with that kind of help is due to brand of ball

[Phoenix]

Jordan always won the title with a high seed seed and 22/5/4 from his sidekick - the reason that Luka isn't competitive with that kind of help is due to brand of ball

Who asked? Oh and he had that in his first year and won 38 games. :lol

[3ba11]

After the Bulls took a 2-1 lead

Game 4: 23/2/4 on 5/15
Game 5: 18/5/9 on just 8 shot attempts
Game 6: 32/4/13, definitely good production, but had 8 turnovers and shot 5/12 from the FT line

These were 3 games the Bulls all lost by single digits, 2 at home, so a winnable series if Jordan doesn't have such subpar performances.



.
Worst-ever 3-game stretch in Playoffs


96' Jordan Finals..... 24 on 37% (gm 4-6)*
89' Jordan ECF........ 24 on 45% (gm 4-6)

11' Lebron Finals..... 14 on 39% (gm 3-5)
10' Lebron ECSF ..... 21 on 34% (gm 4-6)
13' Lebron Finals..... 16 on 39% (gm 1-3)


* goat floor


CONCLUSION: the goat had the highest peak and floor (above)

[SouBeachTalents]

.
Worst-ever 3-game stretch in Playoffs


96' Jordan Finals..... 24 on 37% (gm 4-6)*
89' Jordan ECF........ 24 on 45% (gm 4-6)

11' Lebron Finals..... 14 on 39% (gm 3-5)
10' Lebron ECSF ..... 21 on 34% (gm 4-6)
13' Lebron Finals..... 16 on 39% (gm 1-3)


* goat floor


CONCLUSION: the goat had the highest peak and floor (above)
LeBron could be the worst player of all time, nothing LeBron did changes ANYTHING about how Jordan played in those 3 games :lol

[Phoenix]

.
worst-ever 3-game stretch in playoffs


96' jordan finals..... 24 on 37% (gm 4-6)*
89' jordan ecf........ 24 on 45% (gm 4-6)

11' lebron finals..... 14 on 39% (gm 3-5)
10' lebron ecsf ..... 21 on 34% (gm 4-6)
13' lebron finals..... 16 on 39% (gm 1-3)


* goat floor


conclusion: The goat had the highest peak and floor (above)

conclusion

who asked?

[3ba11]

Who asked? Oh and he had that in his first year and won 38 games. :lol


Only a shit brand will get swept in their 4th healthy season.. :confusedshrug:

Once MJ learned how to play a little bit, he was never uncompetitive in any series, even if his sidekick averaged 9 ppg like the 89' ECF

Jordan took a dynasty to 6 games with 9 ppg from his sidekick, while Luka's garbage brand is getting swept with prime Pippen production from his sidekick and a high seeded cast.. that's pathetic

[3ba11]

Only a shit brand will get swept in their 4th healthy season.. :confusedshrug:

Once MJ learned how to play a little bit, he was never uncompetitive in any series, even if his sidekick averaged 9 ppg like the 89' ECF

Jordan took a dynasty to 6 games with 9 ppg from his sidekick, while Luka's garbage brand is getting swept with prime Pippen production from his sidekick and a high seeded cast.. that's pathetic


Phoenix?

Concession?

I'll take your silence as one

[Hey Yo]

Only a shit brand will get swept in their 4th healthy season.. :confusedshrug:

Once MJ learned how to play a little bit, he was never uncompetitive in any series, even if his sidekick averaged 9 ppg like the 89' ECF

Jordan took a dynasty to 6 games with 9 ppg from his sidekick, while Luka's garbage brand is getting swept with prime Pippen production from his sidekick and a high seeded cast.. that's pathetic

Zeke was the only All-Star for Detroit in 89.

LOL @ dynasty

[Phoenix]

Only a shit brand will get swept in their 4th healthy season.. :confusedshrug:

Once MJ learned how to play a little bit, he was never uncompetitive in any series, even if his sidekick averaged 9 ppg like the 89' ECF

Jordan took a dynasty to 6 games with 9 ppg from his sidekick, while Luka's garbage brand is getting swept with prime Pippen production from his sidekick and a high seeded cast.. that's pathetic

What about in their third season( or 2nd healthy season)?
https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1987-nba-eastern-conference-first-round-bulls-vs-celtics.html

:lol

[Phoenix]

conclusion

who asked?

3ball?

Concession?

I'll take your silence as one

[Spuddywebby]

So in his 4th healthy season, Luka isn't measuring up to the goat standard

Jordan always won the title with a high seed seed and 22/5/4 from his sidekick - the reason that Luka isn't competitive with that kind of help is due to brand of ball

In 88-89 Pippen averaged 14 in the regular season and 13 in the playoffs. The starting five all averaged double digits.

[Hey Yo]

JUNE 1, 1989 12 AM PT
TIMES STAFF WRITER
AUBURN HILLS, Mich. — Yes, almost anybody might have expected the Detroit Pistons to be successful Wednesday night on their home court, to take a 3-2 advantage over the Chicago Bulls in their ferocious match to see who fights the Lakers for the National Basketball Assn. championship.
Yes, somebody might have even foreseen Vinnie (Microwave) Johnson coming off the bench to score 16 of his 22 points for Detroit in the fourth quarter, breaking open a close game.

However, could anybody have anticipated, before Detroit’s 94-85 victory over Chicago in Game 5 of the Eastern Conference finals, that:

--Chicago’s Michael Jordan would take only eight shots in 46 minutes?

--Craig Hodges would lead Chicago in shots and points?

--Bill Laimbeer would be benched by Detroit the entire fourth quarter?

--Detroit’s Isiah Thomas and Mark Aguirre would be benched almost the entire fourth quarter?

--Detroit’s starting five would combine in the fourth quarter for three points?

--Brad Sellers would play 22 minutes for Chicago after not playing in the past three games--and take one less shot than Jordan?

No wonder it was suggested that the Bulls turned Jordan into a $2.5-million-a-year decoy.

“That’s a pretty crass thing to say,” Jordan’s coach, Doug Collins, snapped back. “That’s a pretty big shot to take at us.

“Michael scores 46 points, and people say he’s not sharing enough of the offense. Now he takes eight shots and you tell him he’s the highest-priced decoy in the game.

“Is that fair?”

Jordan sure didn’t think so.

He made a conscious effort, he said, to involve his teammates in the offense, what with the Pistons putting everybody but their trainer on him when he touched the ball.

“Why should I take the shots if they’re double-teaming me, triple-teaming me, sometimes even putting four guys on me?” Jordan asked. “Didn’t we still get good shots?”

Yes, Michael.

“Well, did we hit ‘em?”

No, Michael.

“That’s the whole story,” Jordan said. “We gotta hit ‘em.”

Held to 18 points--10 on free throws--Jordan was virtually no scoring factor in the game, although he did account for more than half (nine) of Chicago’s assists.

Detroit’s defense just keeps wearing Air Jordan and the Jordanaires down, bit by bit. The Bulls got only 80 points in Game 4. This time they got only 85, and were outshot by the Pistons by a ridiculously lopsided 80-59--the 59 shots an all-time playoff low by any NBA team.

“Are they wearing us down? Yes,” Collins said, answering his own question. “Are we tired? Probably. Is Michael tired? Probably. That’s why I tried to use some new people. Detroit just keeps throwing fresh bodies at us. These guys leave Laimbeer, Isiah and Aguirre on the bench and don’t even miss them.”

If there is more than one reason Jordan’s tongue is hanging so far out these days, it might be because the Bulls battled five long nights against Cleveland and six against the Knicks, while the Pistons breezed through Boston and Milwaukee in eight straight.

Even so, Chicago gave a good account of itself Wednesday for a while, in front of a crowd of 21,454 at the Palace, where the Pistons have won 27 of their last 28.

The Bulls must win here Sunday to get a shot at the Lakers and their first NBA title, but first, there’s a little matter of Game 6 Friday night at Chicago Stadium.

They led, 31-21, early in the second quarter before running out of gas. Jordan advised his teammates on the bus ride to the arena that they would have to step up and be heard from, since Detroit obviously intended to throw the kitchen sink at him on defense.

Bill Cartwright answered the call, supplying 10 points and 10 rebounds by halftime.

The Pistons whittled away, with their top four reserves getting as much playing time or more than the starters--excluding Joe Dumars, whose principal job is guarding Jordan. Although they trailed, 45-41, at halftime, the Pistons opened the third quarter with a 12-2 run and never trailed again.

The minute one guy cooled off, someone else got hot. Aguirre and Thomas, for example, scored Detroit’s last 18 points of the first half--but sat out the final 10 minutes 50 seconds of the game, even though neither player was hurt or in foul trouble.

Vinnie Johnson refused to re-take his seat, firing in jumper after jumper. Someone asked him later how it felt to be on fire, and he said: “On fire? I wasn’t on fire. At least I don’t think I was on fire.”

John Salley begged to differ.

“Vinnie was so hot, I’m thinking of doing a video with just Vinnie and a bunch of fire in the background,” Salley said.

Said Jordan, “That’s why they call him the Microwave.”

Chicago was as cold as the city.

Only Hodges, the starting guard opposite Jordan who becomes a free agent when the season ends, shot Bulls-eyes, nailing five three-pointers on his way to 19 points. Just once all season had Hodges even co-led Chicago in scoring, Jordan outscoring his teammates in all but six regular-season games.

For long passages of time, it was easy to forget Jordan was even in Wednesday’s game. He seemed “almost in a sleepwalk,” Detroit TV commentator Dick Motta said, taking only four shots per half.

Was anything wrong?

No, Jordan said. “I just never felt I had the situation where I could take over the game and do what you all thought I was going to do.

“I feel good. I don’t feel tired. There’s nothing like that wrong with me. I’m going to say it again: I am not going to force anything. I can’t shoot with their whole team on me. If the other guys hit their shots, we win, plain and simple.”.... (publically throwing his teammates under the bus)

Hodges understood.

“Everybody sees us as a one-man team, we know that, but whether he scores 100 points or 10 points, Michael needs some help. We’ve got to give it to him or we’re finished.”

Hodges gave it his best three-point shot, hitting two in a row to cut Detroit’s lead to 85-80 with four minutes left. Hodges hurt the Bulls with a turnover that led to a Detroit score, but bagged another three-pointer at 1:38, making it 89-83.

Too late. A lay-up by Dumars--the first points by a Piston starter in the fourth period--put the game beyond the Bulls’ means, particularly with Jordan scoring only one point over the final 12 minutes.

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1989-06-01-sp-1414-story.html

[3ba11]

.

89' Pippen ECF............ 9.7 on 45 TS... low seed
22' Brunson WCF...... 21.7 on 61 TS... high seed


Jordan took the Pistons to 6 games

Luka was swept

CONCLUSION: Luka is nowhere near Jordan's talent or brand of ball, chemistry and teammate fits/development. aka Luka is nowhere near the GOAT standard of performance.

Btw, Powell or Kleiber can't get 14/10 on 78% like Looney due to brand of ball, chemistry

That's just one example of the Warriors' brand of ball elevating role players.. And we all know that Wiggins wouldn't be shit next to Luka..

[bdonovan]

Impressed by Brunson. Full intensity on both ends. If all the Mavs had Brunson's effort on defense, this would be a different series. I have the sense he's under-utilized in Doncic's offensive approach.

[Spuddywebby]

If you truly believe that Powell would get 14/10 on the Bulls then you need to be medicated or you are just wasting everyone’s time. BTW Powell played 34 games his first year with two ball movement teams (Toronto and Boston). He averaged 3 points and got traded twice. Kleber, playing in Germany where they play ball/player movement, averaged 7 points.

[3ba11]

If you truly believe that Powell would get 14/10 on the Bulls then you need to be medicated or you are just wasting everyone’s time. BTW Powell played 34 games his first year with two ball movement teams (Toronto and Boston). He averaged 3 points and got traded twice. Kleber, playing in Germany where they play ball/player movement, averaged 7 points.


Kleiber, Powell and Looney are all the same caliber but the Warriors' brand of ball gives Looney the capacity for 14/10 on 78% - he's wide open A LOT, while Kleiber and Powell aren't because of Luka's hot-doggin' style

[Spuddywebby]

Impressed by Brunson. Full intensity on both ends. If all the Mavs had Brunson's effort on defense, this would be a different series. I have the sense he's under-utilized in Doncic's offensive approach.

Dallas’s issue is that their three best players play the same position and all three suck at defense. Dinwidde/Brunson/Luka all all scoring point guards. They can play off ball but if you have the three of them on the court at the same time and Dwight Powell protecting the rim, you need to score 120 to win. And when your “shooters” (Bullock/Kleber/Bertans/Finey) go 4-25, it’s honestly shocking that they only lost by 9

[Spuddywebby]

Kleiber, Powell and Looney are all the same caliber but the Warriors' brand of ball gives Looney the capacity for 14/10 on 78% - he's wide open A LOT, while Kleiber and Powell aren't because of Luka's hot-doggin' style

Ok, you obviously don’t watch the games and for some reason that is beyond my comprehension, you have an unnerving need to minimize the abilities of players that are considered to be good in this era.

[Hey Yo]

3fag?

Concession?

I'll take your silence as one.

[3ba11]

Dallas’s issue is that their three best players play the same position and all three suck at defense. Dinwidde/Brunson/Luka all all scoring point guards. They can play off ball but if you have the three of them on the court at the same time and Dwight Powell protecting the rim, you need to score 120 to win. And when your “shooters” (Bullock/Kleber/Bertans/Finey) go 4-25, it’s honestly shocking that they only lost by 9


4-25 isn't random chance

The Mavs don't have the flow of the Warriors because they don't move the ball around - teammates are stuck with a rushed kick out compared to the Warriors moving the ball and getting in-rhythm flow shots

And it's due to Luka's skill deficit - the Mavs can't move the ball because Luka is dominating it - he lacks the skills to be an off-ball assist target that facilities ball movement.. His assisted rate is worst-ever (less than 5% - absolute trash)

[Gohan]

Lmao at the kkk lining up in lukas defense, that white sheet is clouding their judgement

[Spuddywebby]

Well, I’m not white. And I stan a team, not a player like you guys do. I watch basketball and appreciate the basketball player and the team, not what color they are. It must kill guys like you that some of the best black players in the league are all light skin (curry, Klay,Tatum, Giannis, Booker). I hope Ja doesn’t let you down. :roll:

[Spuddywebby]

4-25 isn't random chance

The Mavs don't have the flow of the Warriors because they don't move the ball around - teammates are stuck with a rushed kick out compared to the Warriors moving the ball and getting in-rhythm flow shots

And it's due to Luka's skill deficit - the Mavs can't move the ball because Luka is dominating it - he lacks the skills to be an off-ball assist target that facilities ball movement.. His assisted rate is worst-ever (less than 5% - absolute trash)

As I said, you obviously don’t watch the games. By the way, are you telling me that the Bulls brand of ball had Scottie scoring 5 points less than his season average on the ECF? That makes no sense. Poor Powell would be averaging negative points in that situation.

And while you know this, Warriors brand of ball succeeds by having two of the best shooters the game has ever seen on the court at the same time. They need to be guarded in places on the court where few other players have been guarded. That opens up the floor more than Jordan ever did, the defense reacted to Jordan when he got into the paint and his incredible shot making and solid passing made the system work. I can assure you I saw Jordan play way more than you ever did.

[ImKobe]

4-25 isn't random chance

The Mavs don't have the flow of the Warriors because they don't move the ball around - teammates are stuck with a rushed kick out compared to the Warriors moving the ball and getting in-rhythm flow shots

And it's due to Luka's skill deficit - the Mavs can't move the ball because Luka is dominating it - he lacks the skills to be an off-ball assist target that facilities ball movement.. His assisted rate is worst-ever (less than 5% - absolute trash)

Yes it is. They're getting quality looks that they've been knocking down all Playoffs. This is why mid-range & paint scoring is so important and why teams that mostly rely on the 3PT shot usually don't win in the POs on a consistent basis. Warriors weren't a dynasty before KD joined them and gave them that option from the mid-range & post and made them unbeatable, but this version of GS is very beatable due to the volatility of the 3PT shot.

[k0kakw0rld]

So in his 4th healthy season, Luka isn't measuring up to the goat standard

Jordan always won the title with a high seed seed and 22/5/4 from his sidekick - the reason that Luka isn't competitive with that kind of help is due to brand of ball
Are you serious? Are you this stupid? :facepalm

[3ba11]

Yes it is. They're getting quality looks that they've been knocking down all Playoffs. This is why mid-range & paint scoring is so important and why teams that mostly rely on the 3PT shot usually don't win in the POs on a consistent basis. Warriors weren't a dynasty before KD joined them and gave them that option from the mid-range & post and made them unbeatable, but this version of GS is very beatable due to the volatility of the 3PT shot.


They were knocking those shots down because they were fresher and the aggressor.

Otoh, this series shows that the Mavs are worn down from defending a superior brand of ball - this contrasts with previous series where the Mavs were the team that was putting opponents on their heels

It's tougher to make shots as the team on their heels (applying less pressure than they face)

[ShawkFactory]

They were knocking those shots down because they were fresher and the aggressor.

Otoh, this series shows that the Mavs are worn down from defending a superior brand of ball - this contrasts with previous series where the Mavs were the team that was putting opponents on their heels

It's tougher to make shots as the team on their heels (applying less pressure than they face)

So is Luka a poor-brand ball-dominant player or not? Only against some teams?

Only when you feel like it?

[Phoenix]

So is Luka a poor-brand ball-dominant player or not? Only against some teams?

Only when you feel like it?

Exactly. Mind you, the Warriors DO have a superior 'brand of ball', but that's true regardless of the opponent. The Warriors have the best system in the league, starting from the front office. Similar to the 2000s/2010s Spurs. But to your point, or rather to 3nutballs, what brand of ball was being employed when they knocked out the Jazz and Suns?

[3ba11]

So is Luka a poor-brand ball-dominant player or not? Only against some teams?

Only when you feel like it?


His ball-dominance and talent is enough to beat most teams but not the best teams that have great brand of ball like the Warriors

This was similar to Jordan - he beat the #1 SRS team in 89' and then upset Ewing's Knicks, but he wasn't enough to overcome the best brand of ball in the league, aka the Bad Boys - the Bad Boys had developed a physical brand to offset the Celtics/Lakers talent edge.. And it worked... Jordan wasn't enough to overcome this by himself, but he did go 6 games instead of getting swept.

Eventually, Jordan developed a finesse ball movement brand that could beat the Bad Boys... that's how organic winning works - it's a constant evolution of increasingly superior brands of ball.. unless someone starts colluding.. then it's a slippery slope into inferior brands of ball (talent-based winning)

[Phoenix]

His ball-dominance and talent is enough to beat most teams but not the best teams that have great brand of ball like the Warriors



It's enough to get to the WCFs. So by that metric they're one of the best teams in the league regardless of 'brand'. And that's taking into account that they're the only team in the playoffs left with one past or present all-star on the roster.

[3ba11]

It's enough to get to the WCFs. So by that metric they're one of the best teams in the league regardless of 'brand'. And that's taking into account that they're the only team in the playoffs left with one past or present all-star on the roster.


And the 2009 Cavs were the best regular season team

But again - it was paper tiger time in the playoffs (after an adjustment or 2)

Bad brand will always cause favored talent to underachieve.. Lebron lost as the favorite in 09' and 10', while also having his preseason favorites fall to Finals underdog or loser for 6 straight years (11-16').

So we've seen it all before - we've seen bad brands cause favored talent to underachieve for 19 years.. Using history as a guide, we know that Luka and his zero assisted rate is f*cked

[Phoenix]

And the 2009 Cavs were the best regular season team

But again - it was paper tiger time in the playoffs (after an adjustment or 2)

Bad brand will always cause favored talent to underachieve.. Lebron lost as the favorite in 09' and 10', while also having his preseason favorites fall to Finals underdog or loser for 6 straight years (11-16').

So we've seen it all before - we've seen bad brands cause favored talent to underachieve for 19 years.. Using history as a guide, we know that Luka and his zero assisted rate is f*cked

What odds were on the Mavs winning the title this year? Because I'm confident in saying making the WCFs is likely further than most people had them this year. So unless 'odds' had them winning it all, where they are now is an overachievement.

[3ba11]

What odds were on the Mavs winning the title this year? Because I'm confident in saying making the WCFs is likely further than most people had them this year. So unless 'odds' had them winning it all, where they are now is an overachievement.


Since Luka is monopolizing the action, no cast can develop into great players and brand alongside him, so he can't win organically

It's great that he can win a couple rounds and get swept by the champs but that's nothing - tons of guys have done that - see Jordan's 89' run, except he didn't get swept, while his stats were better and his cast weaker.

[Phoenix]

Since Luka is monopolizing the action, no cast can develop into great players and brand alongside him, so he can't win organically

It's great that he can win a couple rounds and get swept by the champs but that's nothing - tons of guys have done that - see Jordan's 89' run, except he didn't get swept, while his stats were better and his cast weaker.

Answer my question. What were the odds on the Mavs this year? Are they favored against the Warriors? No? Then shut the fukk up about 'favored' talent when the Mavs are clearly the underdog in this series.

[3ba11]

Answer my question. What were the odds on the Mavs this year? Are they favored against the Warriors? No? Then shut the fukk up about 'favored' talent when the Mavs are clearly the underdog in this series.


Luka should've won the title with Pau, I mean Porzingas but his brand of ball yielded a garbage underdog.

And the overriding point is that Luka-ball yields low team ceilings that will have lottery records against Finals-caliber teams, just like Lebron

[ImKobe]

They were knocking those shots down because they were fresher and the aggressor.

Otoh, this series shows that the Mavs are worn down from defending a superior brand of ball - this contrasts with previous series where the Mavs were the team that was putting opponents on their heels

It's tougher to make shots as the team on their heels (applying less pressure than they face)

It's just tougher to guard Steph + Klay than it is CP0 and Book, and the Warriors also have the size advantage in the paint. They can't take either of the two away no matter what rotation they go to, and if their role players are not making their wide open 3s there's nothing they can do to win the series. You can't expect the Mavs to play a superior brand of ball with their current roster when they don't have the talent to pull that off. They rely on the volatility of the 3PT shot, and it has not been in their favor in this series while they beat the Suns by a significant margin.

It would be a fair criticism if Luka had a 2016 Cavs type roster but the Warriors have 3-5 top 30 guys (Steph, Klay, Dray, Poole, Wiggins) in the league while the Mavs only have 2 at best, and even then I wouldn't take Brunson over Poole or Wiggins in this series. The only reason me and others were looking at the Mavs in the WCF is because they were red hot while GS struggled to shoot the 3 in the previous round, and obviously this has completely flipped in this instance. We don't need to make it deeper than it really is.

[Phoenix]

Luka should've won the title with Pau, I mean Porzingas but his brand of ball yielded a garbage underdog.

And the overriding point is that Luka-ball yields low team ceilings that will have lottery records against Finals-caliber teams, just like Lebron

Porzingis isn't remotely close to Pau. For one, he'd have gotten completely punked in the 2010 finals by the Celtics fronline if they even made it that far with Kristaps.

The overriding point is the Mavs overachieved getting past the Suns.

https://images6.fanpop.com/image/photos/42900000/Steven-I-can-do-this-all-day-Rogers-captain-america-42930159-356-192.gif

[3ba11]

.

the Mavs overachieved getting past the Suns.




Hundreds of guys have upset wins..

He'll never get over the hump without super-teams (extra talent) to offset his garbage brand

Luka is like Iverson or actually Maravich. He'll latch on to a dynasty at the end of his ball-monopolizing career

[Phoenix]

Hundreds of guys have upset wins..

He'll never get over the hump without super-teams (extra talent) to offset his garbage brand



And so what if he doesn't? Luka isn't Jordan, and the only one trying to measure him to that level is you. Which says alot more than you than it does anyone else.

[3ba11]

And so what if he doesn't? Luka isn't Jordan, and the only one trying to measure him to that level is you. Which says alot more than you than it does anyone else.


Lebron's garbage brand wouldn't have gotten over the hump either without resorting to talent-based winning (super-teams)

So Luka better hurry up and "decide" to team-up with the #2 PER like Lebron did .. so that's Giannis

[Phoenix]

Lebron's garbage brand wouldn't have gotten over the hump either without resorting to talent-based winning (super-teams)

So Luka better hurry up and "decide" to team-up with the #2 PER like Lebron did .. so that's Giannis

Why do you care one way or the other what Luka does or doesn't do with his career?

[DMAVS41]

His ball-dominance and talent is enough to beat most teams but not the best teams that have great brand of ball like the Warriors

This was similar to Jordan - he beat the #1 SRS team in 89' and then upset Ewing's Knicks, but he wasn't enough to overcome the best brand of ball in the league, aka the Bad Boys - the Bad Boys had developed a physical brand to offset the Celtics/Lakers talent edge.. And it worked... Jordan wasn't enough to overcome this by himself, but he did go 6 games instead of getting swept.

Eventually, Jordan developed a finesse ball movement brand that could beat the Bad Boys... that's how organic winning works - it's a constant evolution of increasingly superior brands of ball.. unless someone starts colluding.. then it's a slippery slope into inferior brands of ball (talent-based winning)

Not only is there a clear talent disparity between the two teams, but does experience literally not matter to you and the clowns that fall for this crap?

I don't even know the answer, but had any of the Maverick players even won a series in the playoffs before this year? Pretty much everyone on this roster has played less than 20 playoff games for their entire careers entering this playoffs.

There should be absolutely no expectation of this team winning the title. It's beyond absurd to start hating on Luka and this team for not beating the Warriors. Are you all this ignorant to NBA history? Even recent history?

How did the 2011 Thunder do in the WCF????? They had more talent...how did Durant playing the "right way" with his 55 win team and multiple future MVP's do? Oh...they got their shit kicked....and Durant had a real team.

Teams lacking experience and talent don't just roll up and beat a proven all-time great Warriors core the first try...shit simply is beyond rare and laughable to hold a player you don't think is that good to that standard.

[3ba11]

As I said, you obviously don’t watch the games. By the way, are you telling me that the Bulls brand of ball had Scottie scoring 5 points less than his season average on the ECF? That makes no sense. Poor Powell would be averaging negative points in that situation.

And while you know this, Warriors brand of ball succeeds by having two of the best shooters the game has ever seen on the court at the same time. They need to be guarded in places on the court where few other players have been guarded. That opens up the floor more than Jordan ever did, the defense reacted to Jordan when he got into the paint and his incredible shot making and solid passing made the system work. I can assure you I saw Jordan play way more than you ever did.


Pippen was a sophomore 14 ppg bum in 89'

9 points wasn't uncommon for him - he basically quit once the series was tied 2-2 (7 points combined in last 2 games), just like the following year in 1990 (2 points in Game 7).

So Jordan was carrying those Bulls but they weren't playing a good brand like you claim (Doug Collins).. But the difference between Jordan and Luka is that Jordan had the fundamentals and off-ball skillset to be coached into a superior brand, while Luka ties a coach's hands into playing 1 way (a simpleton, low-team-assist brand).

[Phoenix]

Not only is there a clear talent disparity between the two teams, but does experience literally not matter to you and the clowns that fall for this crap?

I don't even know the answer, but had any of the Maverick players even won a series in the playoffs before this year? Pretty much everyone on this roster has played less than 20 playoff games for their entire careers entering this playoffs.

There should be absolutely no expectation of this team winning the title. It's beyond absurd to start hating on Luka and this team for not beating the Warriors. Are you all this ignorant to NBA history? Even recent history?

How did the 2011 Thunder do in the WCF????? They had more talent...how did Durant playing the "right way" with his 55 win team and multiple future MVP's do? Oh...they got their shit kicked....and Durant had a real team.

Teams lacking experience and talent don't just roll up and beat a proven all-time great Warriors core the first try...shit simply is beyond rare and laughable to hold a player you don't think is that good to that standard.

It dawned on me just now that 3nutball equated Porzingis with Pau, saying that Luka should be able to win the title with him because Kobe did 12 years ago. First, the comparison is off but even if they were roughly equal, those Laker squads would have gotten their shit pushed in by any version of the Warriors since 2015 minus the last couple of years with Klay out.

[NBAGOAT]

It dawned on me just now that 3nutball equated Porzingis with Pau, saying that Luka should be able to win the title with him because Kobe did 12 years ago. First, the comparison is off but even if they were roughly equal, those Laker squads would have gotten their shit pushed in by any version of the Warriors since 2015 minus the last couple of years with Klay out.

porzingis was good this year. The dude cant stay healthy however or play good defense and is better suited as a first option or 1b on a .500 team. I do think lakers can beat warriors this year, not as good as their 15-16 version but they also have really good pieces around kobe/pau in odom, bynum etc.

[Phoenix]

porzingis was good this year. The dude cant stay healthy however or play good defense and is better suited as a first option or 1b on a .500 team. I do think lakers can beat warriors this year, not as good as their 15-16 version but they also have really good pieces around kobe/pau in odom, bynum etc.

Yeah he was, but he's not on Pau's 2009/2010 level. It's a bad comparison. As for the Lakers and Warriors, this years team doesn't look quite as dominant as some of their earlier teams because I think the league has caught up to their style as far as the reliance on the 3ball. They blitzed the league with it back in 2016 on account of having literally the best shooting backcourt in history. Of course, neither Curry or Klay are playing at THAT level now but I do think guys like Wiggins and Poole have compensated for some of that dropoff.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Luka should've won the title with Pau, I mean Porzingas but his brand of ball yielded a garbage underdog.

And the overriding point is that Luka-ball yields low team ceilings that will have lottery records against Finals-caliber teams, just like Lebron

But Wiggins has better career production than Portrash, why couldn't curry make the playoffs with him and dray?

[NBAGOAT]

Yeah he was, but he's not on Pau's 2009/2010 level. It's a bad comparison. As for the Lakers and Warriors, this years team doesn't look quite as dominant as some of their earlier teams because I think the league has caught up to their style as far as the reliance on the 3ball. They blitzed the league with it back in 2016 on account of having literally the best shooting backcourt in history. Of course, neither Curry or Klay are playing at THAT level now but I do think guys like Wiggins and Poole have compensated for some of that dropoff.

ofc i agree about pau just defending porzingis a little. Also true about supporting cast, wiggins is better than barnes and they didnt have a scorer off the bench like poole. I would add draymond was better back then too, he could actually shoot for one was younger.

[Phoenix]

ofc i agree about pau just defending porzingis a little. Also true about supporting cast, wiggins is better than barnes and they didnt have a scorer off the bench like poole. I would add draymond was better back then too, he could actually shoot for one was younger.

Yeah Dray was better back then, but his offense has always been of less importance than his ability to quarterback the defense and basically be the teams emotional core. He's maintained that over the years.

[DMAVS41]

ofc i agree about pau just defending porzingis a little. Also true about supporting cast, wiggins is better than barnes and they didnt have a scorer off the bench like poole. I would add draymond was better back then too, he could actually shoot for one was younger.

Dray and Klay were better in the past. A healthy Porter would make the comparisons interesting, but without him healthy...the 15 / 16 Warriors are clearly better teams imo.

[Phoenix]

The biggest drop-off with Klay has been defensively. He was basically the perfect 3 and D guy but with the ability to just go NBA Jam on fire mode. Those injuries have removed some quickness( and being on the wrong side of 30 never helps combined with said injuries).

[3ba11]

Not only is there a clear talent disparity between the two teams, but does experience literally not matter to you and the clowns that fall for this crap?

I don't even know the answer, but had any of the Maverick players even won a series in the playoffs before this year? Pretty much everyone on this roster has played less than 20 playoff games for their entire careers entering this playoffs.

There should be absolutely no expectation of this team winning the title. It's beyond absurd to start hating on Luka and this team for not beating the Warriors. Are you all this ignorant to NBA history? Even recent history?

How did the 2011 Thunder do in the WCF????? They had more talent...how did Durant playing the "right way" with his 55 win team and multiple future MVP's do? Oh...they got their shit kicked....and Durant had a real team.

Teams lacking experience and talent don't just roll up and beat a proven all-time great Warriors core the first try...shit simply is beyond rare and laughable to hold a player you don't think is that good to that standard.


How can you compare a cast that plays in the the worst brand ever, to a cast that plays in the best?

Of course the cast that enjoys the better chemistry and brand will play much better... :hammerhead:

Do you think Luka can win with a zero or near-zero assisted rate?.. aka "high-school hot-doggin' style" according to Keyshawn

How much supporting talent do you think it would take for him to win that way?... Now remember that Lebron's assisted rate is 4-6 times higher than Luka's and he still needed Wade/Bosh or Kyrie/Love plus a bunch of teammate bailouts.

[NBAGOAT]

How can you compare a cast that plays in the the worst brand ever, to a cast that plays in the best?

Of course the cast that enjoys the better chemistry and brand will play much better... :hammerhead:

Do you think Luka can win with a zero or near-zero assisted rate?.. aka "high-school hot-doggin' style" according to Keyshawn

How much supporting talent do you think it would take for him to win that way?... Now remember that Lebron's assisted rate is 4-6 times higher than Luka's and he still needed Wade/Bosh or Kyrie/Love plus a bunch of teammate bailouts.

you add one star and luka can win a title honestly in the current league. No it doesnt have to be giannis or kd or lebron either

[DMAVS41]

How can you compare a cast that plays in the the worst brand ever, to a cast that plays in the best?

Of course the cast that enjoys the better chemistry and brand will play much better... :hammerhead:

Do you think Luka can win with a zero or near-zero assisted rate?.. aka "high-school hot-doggin' style" according to Keyshawn

How much supporting talent do you think it would take for him to win that way?... Now remember that Lebron's assisted rate is 4-6 times higher than Luka's and he still needed Wade/Bosh or Kyrie/Love plus a bunch of teammate bailouts.

How about experience? Does that matter?

[Phoenix]

you add one star and luka can win a title honestly in the current league. No it doesnt have to be giannis or kd or lebron either

Or in the case of the Warriors, lose one star in Klay and miss the playoffs entirely, like last year.... with Steph having his best season since 2016. 3ball is trying to sell the narrative that the Warriors are merely a collection of good players bolstered by a good 'brand', and not a team spearheaded by the best shooter ever, one of the top 5 shooters ever, and one of the best defensive players ever. Luka could only dream of being able to pass to Klay Thompson for open 3s.

[3ba11]

How about experience? Does that matter?


The overriding point is that Luka is getting swept in his 4th healthy season, while 89' Jordan took the Pistons to 6 games with less help (9 on 40% from Pippen)

Luka's ball-dominance is getting completely ragdolled despite a high-seeded cast and 22 ppg from Brunson

[ShawkFactory]

How about experience? Does that matter?

It doesn't appear to here.

[Phoenix]

How about experience? Does that matter?

He'll use the 'experience/brand of ball' talking point to argue for why the 94 Bulls were able to remain competitive when MJ was out. But apparently the Warriors( when healthy) being champions or title contenders for like 7 years now, that same 'experience/brand of ball' no longer matters and a vastly ( by comparison) inexperienced Mavs squad with lesser talent shouldn't have any problems.

[DMAVS41]

The overriding point is that Luka is getting swept in his 4th healthy season, while 89' Jordan took the Pistons to 6 games with less help (9 on 40% from Pippen)

Luka's ball-dominance is getting completely ragdolled despite a high-seeded cast and 22 ppg from Brunson

Great points...totally refutes my claim that Luka is Michael Jordan.

[Phoenix]

The overriding point is that Luka is getting swept in his 4th healthy season, while 89' Jordan took the Pistons to 6 games with less help (9 on 40% from Pippen)

Luka's ball-dominance is getting completely ragdolled despite a high-seeded cast and 22 ppg from Brunson

This is like the 10th time you've been asked, and the 10th time you haven't actually addressed why you're trying to equate the two. WHO, asides from you, is saying Luka has reached a level that this comparison needs to be made?

[3ba11]

It doesn't appear to here.


What experience?

Poole and Wiggins have no experience being respected NBA hoopers until they played in the goat brand of ball

And the 89' Bulls had no experience, but they still didn't get swept

When Jordan beat the 91' Pistons, the Pistons were still superior on paper, while Pippen achieved Brunson's current stats

So Luka getting swept is a big underachevement

[DMAVS41]

What experience?




I don't know...maybe the 100 plus playoff games, titles, and situations the Warriors core has faced.

But, yea, what experience is right...is isn't as if one of these teams is making their first deep run and the other is making their 6th. Good point...

[3ba11]

I don't know...maybe the 100 plus playoff games, titles, and situations the Warriors core has faced.

But, yea, what experience is right...is isn't as if one of these teams is making their first deep run and the other is making their 6th. Good point...


the 89' Bulls had no experience, but they still didn't get swept

When Jordan beat the 91' Pistons, the Pistons were still superior on paper, while Pippen achieved Brunson's current stats

So Luka getting swept is a big underachevement - he went from overachieving against the Suns to underachieving against a real brand of ball

[Phoenix]

What experience?

Poole and Wiggins have no experience being respected NBA hoopers until they played in the goat brand of ball

And the 89' Bulls had no experience, but they still didn't get swept

When Jordan beat the 91' Pistons, the Pistons were still superior on paper, while Pippen achieved Brunson's current stats

So Luka getting swept is a big underachevement

Steph? Klay? Dray? Kerr?

Jordan? Pippen? Phil?

Duncan? Parket? Ginobli? Pop?

When you have the core in place, you can swap in and out role players that buy into the system.

[3ba11]

Steph? Klay? Dray? Kerr?

Jordan? Pippen? Phil?

Duncan? Parket? Ginobli? Pop?

When you have the core in place, you can swap in and out role players that buy into the system.


the 89' Bulls had no experience, but they still didn't get swept

When Jordan beat the 91' Pistons, the Pistons were still superior on paper, while Pippen achieved Brunson's current stats

So Luka getting swept is a big underachevement - he went from overachieving against the Suns to underachieving against a real brand of ball

[Phoenix]

the 89' Bulls had no experience, but they still didn't get swept

When Jordan beat the 91' Pistons, the Pistons were still superior on paper, while Pippen achieved Brunson's current stats

So Luka getting swept is a big underachevement - he went from overachieving against the Suns to underachieving against a real brand of ball

But Michael Jordan is better than Luka Doncic.

So what's your point?

[3ba11]

.

So what's your point?


Luka getting swept is a big underachevement - he went from overachieving against the Suns to underachieving against a real brand of ball

[DMAVS41]

the 89' Bulls had no experience, but they still didn't get swept

When Jordan beat the 91' Pistons, the Pistons were still superior on paper, while Pippen achieved Brunson's current stats

So Luka getting swept is a big underachevement - he went from overachieving against the Suns to underachieving against a real brand of ball

You truly are a wild look into a mind. What the **** do the 89 Bulls have to do with anything I said?

[NBAGOAT]

the 89' Bulls had no experience, but they still didn't get swept

When Jordan beat the 91' Pistons, the Pistons were still superior on paper, while Pippen achieved Brunson's current stats

So Luka getting swept is a big underachevement - he went from overachieving against the Suns to underachieving against a real brand of ball

what was the pistons ortg in 91 compared to the warriors right now?

[Phoenix]

Luka getting swept is a big underachevement - he went from overachieving against the Suns to underachieving against a real brand of ball

So like MJ was doing every year before the triangle then. You're getting caught up on shit like winning a few games on the way to the same net result. MJ lost in 89, and actually lost a 2-1 lead in doing so. One could argue he overachieved the first 3 games and underachieved the last 3. :confusedshrug:

[coastalmarker99]

Luka Doncic is averaging 14.3 potential assists per game, the second-highest of any player in the Conference Finals.


However, he’s only averaging 5.0 assists per game, for an assist to potential assist ratio of only 0.34, the second-lowest of any player in the Conference Finals


It's not Luka's fault that his teammates are not hitting the wide-open shots he gives them.


Three of his role players last night combined for 0/13 from 3 that's disgusting

[Phoenix]

Luka Doncic is averaging 14.3 potential assists per game, the second-highest of any player in the Conference Finals.


However, he’s only averaging 5.0 assists per game, for an assist to potential assist ratio of only 0.34, the second-lowest of any player in the Conference Finals


It's not Luka's fault that his teammates are not hitting the wide-open shots he gives them.


Three of his role players last night combined for 0/13 from 3 that's disgusting

As they say, it's a make or miss league. The Mavs team percentages are considerably down this series from last, and as you observe they've missed shots they hit to knock off the Suns.

[coastalmarker99]

As they say, it's a make or miss league. The Mavs team percentages are considerably down this series from last, and as you observe they've missed shots they hit to knock off the Suns.


If Luka's teammates were hitting their shots as they did to knock off the suns.


The Mavs would be 2 1 up and everybody would be praising Luka and not doing this dumb thing about his style of play can't win

[Shooter]

Against?

Oh...Mark Price? :lol

NEXT

[Shooter]

jordon never led a team to a championship with his #2 scorer averaging 15.9 ppg though.

AND THIS IS WHERE THE SHUTDOWN BEGINS :lol

Are you telling me that 15.9 ppg 2013 Wade had a lower Playoff PPG than Pippen's WORST Championship year PPG?

[AirBonner]

I have Luka just ahead of MJ on the all time list

[SpaceJam]

I thought it was much harder to score in the 90's, so why are we equating Pippen's 22/8/5 to Brunson's 22/5/4.

MJ had more help

[Axe]

Brunson in his first four seasons playing in the league also had better fg% averages than kobe. :biggums:

[Baller789]

Brunson in his first four seasons playing in the league also had better fg% averages than kobe. :biggums:

So Brunson>>>>>>> Kobe right?

[2much_knowledge]

How great is our goat. Geez

[tontoz]

Last game was a pretty epic fail by Bullock and Kleber. Those two combined for 65 minutes with no points :oldlol:

[DMAVS41]

Last game was a pretty epic fail by Bullock and Kleber. Those two combined for 65 minutes with no points :oldlol:

No player is perfect and Luka deserves criticism for his poor defense, turnovers, shot selection, and complaining...at times...but imagine dropping 40/11 and getting the kind of hate he has...against a better team...with no rim protection at all...while his role players brick great looks all game at home in the biggest game of the year.

And the conclusion, from people not joking and actually being serious, is that this is clearly a championship level supporting cast and Luka is holding them back.

[tontoz]

No player is perfect and Luka deserves criticism for his poor defense, turnovers, shot selection, and complaining...at times...but imagine dropping 40/11 and getting the kind of hate he has...against a better team...with no rim protection at all...while his role players brick great looks all game at home in the biggest game of the year.

And the conclusion, from people not joking and actually being serious, is that this is clearly a championship level supporting cast and Luka is holding them back.

Luka has been a beast in the playoffs the last 3 years. I wish he would stop with the step back 3s early in the clock and get in better shape, but he is a true prodigy.

[DMAVS41]

Luka has been a beast in the playoffs the last 3 years. I wish he would stop with the step back 3s early in the clock and get in better shape, but he is a true prodigy.

That would certainly be a big step forward.

If he was in 10% better shape and cut down on settling for long shots...he'd go up another level in dominance imo.

But, it's hard to say anything about a player giving you 33/9/8 on solid efficiency and proving to be an extremely tough out in the playoffs (prior to this series at least) with limited supporting casts.

[ImKobe]

No player is perfect and Luka deserves criticism for his poor defense, turnovers, shot selection, and complaining...at times...but imagine dropping 40/11 and getting the kind of hate he has...against a better team...with no rim protection at all...while his role players brick great looks all game at home in the biggest game of the year.

And the conclusion, from people not joking and actually being serious, is that this is clearly a championship level supporting cast and Luka is holding them back.

Mavs would win the title if they just benched Luka. This is the sentiment I'm getting from ISH.

[tontoz]

That would certainly be a big step forward.

If he was in 10% better shape and cut down on settling for long shots...he'd go up another level in dominance imo.

But, it's hard to say anything about a player giving you 33/9/8 on solid efficiency and proving to be an extremely tough out in the playoffs (prior to this series at least) with limited supporting casts.


Yeah he is just a freak talent with no nerves. The level of hate he gets shows that stans of other players fear him.

He merked the clippers in the playoffs the last two years when they had a healthy Kawhi and PG13.