Here's why teammates shoot better off of looks from ball movement than ball-dominance

[3ba11]

.
Ball-dominator drive-and-kick strategy expends the shot clock to set up 1 high-pressure look, while ball movement CHOOSES the best look:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/5-23-2022/WoD1kU.gif


Teammates have better efficiency when shooting off this kind of ball movement than a drive-and-kick... :confusedshrug:

Luka and Lebron can't play this kind of ball movement brand that elevates teammates, so they need ridiculous supporting talent that underachieves it's preseason favorite expectation..

We saw Lebron-ball turn favored talent (preseason favorites) to Finals underdog or loser for 6 straight years (11-16').. Expect the same thing once Luka gets his super-team or stud sidekick - a weak brand will cause favored talent to underachieve just like Lebron

[AlternativeAcc.]

Warriors have 5 all stars vs 1 for the Mavs

Poole averages 26/5/5 on 64% TS without curry on the floor

Warriors missed the playoffs last year. Their ball movement didn't work without preposterous talent difference although they still had Curry, Wiggins, Dray, and Poole

[AlternativeAcc.]

Warriors have 19 allstar game apparences amongst them

So far in 3 series they've faces teams with a total of 6 all star game appearances amongst them.

:lol

[3ba11]

Warriors have 5 all stars vs 1 for the Mavs

Poole averages 26/5/5 on 64% TS without curry on the floor

Warriors missed the playoffs last year. Their ball movement didn't work without preposterous talent difference although they still had Curry, Wiggins, Dray, and Poole


Luka's skillset destroys other talented players like Porzingas.

Poole would be stuck in the corner and wouldn't develop alongside Luka's skillset.

Ditto Wiggins - heck, you would've been laughed off this forum if you said that the Warriors were getting an all-star addition in Wiggins...... Yet alongside Curry's skillset, Wiggins is infact an all-star.

Winning organically requires developing the best chemistry and brand in the league like the Spurs, Warriors, 11' Mavs, 04' Pistons or 90's Bulls.. So Luka's current skillset will stop him from learning how to win (brand of ball), which will force him to be a talent-based winner (all-star team strategy.. super-teams)

[Phoenix]

Luka's skillset destroys other talented players like Porzingas.



How so?

[tontoz]

Warriors have 19 allstar game apparences amongst them

So far in 3 series they've faces teams with a total of 6 all star game appearances amongst them.

:lol


8 of those 19 appearances are from Curry.

Lebron's teammates have over 35 All Star appearances and they couldn't even make the play in.

:roll:

[AlternativeAcc.]

Luka's skillset destroys other talented players like Porzingas.

Poole would be stuck in the corner and wouldn't develop alongside Luka's skillset.

Ditto Wiggins - heck, you would've been laughed off this forum if you said that the Warriors were getting an all-star addition in Wiggins...... Yet alongside Curry's skillset, Wiggins is infact an all-star.

Winning organically requires developing the best chemistry and brand in the league like the Spurs, Warriors, 11' Mavs, 04' Pistons or 90's Bulls.. So Luka's current skillset will stop him from learning how to win (brand of ball), which will force him to be a talent-based winner (all-star team strategy.. super-teams)

Wiggins was a 24ppg player at age 21, number 1 pick in the draft

Pooles numbers are significantly better with curry out of the lineup

Curry missed the playoffs last year with Wiggins, Dray, and Poole

Luka is in WCF with no-name 16ppg Brunson

Yikes

[3ba11]

.
All-star appearances while playing with Kareem:

Magic 10
Worthy 6
Bob Dandridge 2
Jamaal Wilkes 2
Oscar 2
Flynn Robinson 1
Norm Nixon 1
AC Green 1
_____________
8 players, 25 appearances = 6/9 in Finals


All-star appearances while playing with Magic:

Kareem 10
Worthy 6
Jamaal Wilkes 2
Norm Nixon 1
AC Green 1
________________
5 players, 20 appearances = 5/9 in Finals


All-star appearances while playing with Bird:

Parish 9
McHale 6
Tiny Archibald 3
D Johnson 1
_____________
4 players, 19 appearances = 3/5 in Finals


All-star appearances while playing with Shaq:

Kobe 7
Wade 3
Penny 2
Eddie Jones 2
Van Exel 1
Horace Grant 1
_________________
6 players, 16 appearances = 4/6 in Finals


All-star appearances while playing with Lebron:

Wade 4
Bosh 4
Kyrie 2
Love 2
AD 2
Mo Williams 1
Zydrunas 1
______________
7 players, 16 appearances = 4/10 in Finals


All-star appearances while playing with Duncan:

Parker 6
Robinson 3
Ginobili 2
________________
3 players, 11 appearances = 5/6 in Finals


All-star appearances while playing with MJ:

Pippen 6
_______________
1 player, 6 appearances = 6/6 in Finals




Warriors have 19 allstar game apparences amongst them

So far in 3 series they've faces teams with a total of 6 all star game appearances amongst them.

:lol


The Bulls were always destroyed by every Finals opponent in all-star appearances

[AlternativeAcc.]

8 of those 19 appearances are from Curry.

Lebron's teammates have over 35 All Star appearances and they couldn't even make the play in.

:roll:

All star appearances only pertain to players in their prime... that leaves Davis who only played 20 games with lebron.

[tpols]

I was watching the game and the Mavs had a few plays last night where Luka was out and the ball suddenly started to move. The announcers were pointing out how crucial it was the Mavs swinging the ball made it so they could still score with Luka out. Which they do. Luka had the worst +/- in last nights game. They were -19 with him on the court.

:biggums:

[AlternativeAcc.]

.
All-star appearances while playing with Kareem:

Magic 10
Worthy 6
Bob Dandridge 2
Jamaal Wilkes 2
Oscar 2
Flynn Robinson 1
Norm Nixon 1
AC Green 1
_____________
8 players, 25 appearances = 6/9 in Finals


All-star appearances while playing with Magic:

Kareem 10
Worthy 6
Jamaal Wilkes 2
Norm Nixon 1
AC Green 1
________________
5 players, 20 appearances = 5/9 in Finals


All-star appearances while playing with Bird:

Parish 9
McHale 6
Tiny Archibald 3
D Johnson 1
_____________
4 players, 19 appearances = 3/5 in Finals


All-star appearances while playing with Shaq:

Kobe 7
Wade 3
Penny 2
Eddie Jones 2
Van Exel 1
Horace Grant 1
_________________
6 players, 16 appearances = 4/6 in Finals


All-star appearances while playing with Lebron:

Wade 4
Bosh 4
Kyrie 2
Love 2
AD 2
Mo Williams 1
Zydrunas 1
______________
7 players, 16 appearances = 4/10 in Finals


All-star appearances while playing with Duncan:

Parker 6
Robinson 3
Ginobili 2
________________
3 players, 11 appearances = 5/6 in Finals


All-star appearances while playing with MJ:

Pippen 6
_______________
1 player, 6 appearances = 6/6 in Finals






The Bulls were always destroyed by every Finals opponent in all-star appearances

Revise your list for players in their primes

[tontoz]

All star appearances only pertain to players in their prime... that leaves Davis who only played 20 games with lebron.



So a guy who is 31 coming off a ruptured achilles AND a torn ACL is in his prime?

Cool story bro.

[Phoenix]

How so?

3ball?

[AlternativeAcc.]

So a guy who is 31 coming off a ruptured achilles AND a torn ACL is in his prime?

Cool story bro.

They didn't make the playoffs without him. Now they look like juggernauts

His game was never reliant on athleticism either

Cool excuse bro

[3ba11]

3ball?


It's called a paper tiger that gets exposed in the playoffs, like when Luka-ball reduced Porzingas to 13 ppg against the Clippers (lost in 7 games)

Teammates play better with a good brand of ball than a bad one, or good chemistry rather than bad .. bball 101

Here's Kobe talking about how Luka or Harden-ball doesn't work in the playoffs:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DR4Y6y4CSsg&t=01m03s

[AlternativeAcc.]

It's called a paper tiger that gets exposed in the playoffs, like when Luka-ball reduced Porzingas to 13 ppg against the Clippers (lost in 7 games)

Here's Kobe talking about how Luka or Harden-ball doesn't work in the playoffs:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DR4Y6y4CSsg&t=01m03s

LeBron ball made the finals in 10 straight years

It's the greatest achievement in basketball history. I'd say it works quite well in the playoffs

Curry on the Mavs is lottery... worst team in the league probably

[3ba11]

LeBron ball made the finals in 10 straight years

It's the greatest achievement in basketball history. I'd say it works quite well in the playoffs

Curry on the Mavs is lottery... worst team in the league probably


1-star teams were enough to win that East, yet Lebron had a super-team most years

his runs in 07' or 15' offset the easy runs that he ceded in 09' and 10' with homecourt

His previous runs with super-teams gave him the best 2nd option in the 18' East and a shoal of Finals veterans versus a bunch of 0-star, newbie teams.. His collusions we're simply unfair and stacked the deck

[Phoenix]

It's called a paper tiger that gets exposed in the playoffs, like when Luka-ball reduced Porzingas to 13 ppg against the Clippers (lost in 7 games)

Here's Kobe talking about how Luka or Harden-ball doesn't work in the playoffs:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DR4Y6y4CSsg&t=01m03s


Teammates play better with a good brand of ball than a bad one, or good chemistry rather than bad .. bball 101

Porzingis as a Knick 15-18: 18/7/1 44%
Porzingis as a Mav 2019-2021- 20/9/2 45%
Porzingis as a Mav 2022( 34 games)- 19/8/2 46%
Porzingis as a Wizard- 22/9/3 48%

If you're trying to make the argument his numbers cratered with the Mavs, you completely failed. You reference the 13ppg he dropped against the Clippers in the 2021 series, while omitting that he dropped 24ppg in the 2020 series. But cherrypicking random series is low-hanging fruit. The reality is that he's not a championship level 2nd option.

[AlternativeAcc.]

1-star teams were enough to win that East, yet Lebron had a super-team most years

his runs in 07' or 15' offset the easy runs that he ceded in 09' and 10' with homecourt

His previous runs with super-teams gave him the best 2nd option in the 18' East and a shoal of Finals veterans versus a bunch of 0-star, newbie teams.. His collusions we're simply unfair and stacked the deck

You just described the Warriors vs. the west

[3ba11]

Porzingis as a Knick 15-18: 18/7/1 44%
Porzingis as a Mav 2019-2021- 20/9/2 45%
Porzingis as a Mav 2022( 34 games)- 19/8/2 46%
Porzingis as a Wizard- 22/9/3 48%

If you're trying to make the argument his numbers cratered with the Mavs,





It isn't an argument

The historical record shows that Luka-ball didn't have a contender with Porzingas and Porzingas is a unicorn - more talented than say, Pippen

Ultimately, bad brands of ball cause favored talent to underachieve - Luka's debacle with Porzingas is similar to Lebron's favored talent underachieving, aka falling from preseason favorite to Finals underdog or loser for 6 straight years (11-16').

So we've seen it all before

[Phoenix]

It isn't an argument

The historical record shows that Luka-ball didn't have a contender with Porzingas and Porzingas is a unicorn - more talented than say, Pippen

Ultimately, bad brands of ball cause favored talent to underachieve - Luka's debacle with Porzingas is similar to Lebron's favored talent underachieving, aka falling from preseason favorite to Finals underdog or loser for 6 straight years (11-16').

So we've seen it all before

The historical record shows that Porzingis produces pretty much identical with or without Luka, and your argument was that Luka destroys his game. And considering the fact that you take every opportunity to say Pippen is a bum, saying someone is 'more talented' isn't saying much based on your own bullshit.

Actually if anything, the historical record says that the Mavs went further without Porizingis that with him the last 3 years. So what point were you attempting to make again?

[3ba11]

. So what point were you attempting to make again?


Luka/Porzingas had a weak team and couldn't contend - so Luka's bad brand caused favored talent to underachieve just like Lebron's bad brand.

Luka also can't develop an organic winner with a near-zero assisted rate, so he'll never learn how to win (brand of ball.. organic) and will need to be a talent-based winner (super-teams)

[Bronbron23]

Warriors have 5 all stars vs 1 for the Mavs

Poole averages 26/5/5 on 64% TS without curry on the floor

Warriors missed the playoffs last year. Their ball movement didn't work without preposterous talent difference although they still had Curry, Wiggins, Dray, and Poole
5 all stars :oldlol: Ya'll muthafukas just make shit up to suit whatever argument u wanna make. Poole is an all star but Kyrie wasn't in in 2015-16? Ya'll hilarious as f*ck :oldlol:

[Phoenix]

Luka/Porzingas had a weak team and couldn't contend - so Luka's bad brand caused favored talent to underachieve just like Lebron's bad brand.

Luka also can't develop an organic winner with a near-zero assisted rate, so he'll never learn how to win (brand of ball.. organic)
You keep saying favored, compared to who? They weren't favored against the Clippers in 2020 or 2021. They aren't favored over the Warriors. So they lose to teams favored to beat them, and they beat a team they were favored to lose to( Phoenix). And they got further without Porzingis than with him. Looks like Kristaps was a link in the chain they could afford to lose. So, what was your point again?

On the subject of 'brand'..... The Jazz had the 1st ORTG this year, the Suns were 4th. And both teams were more talented than the Mavs( especially Phoenix). Interesting that the 'bad brand' managed to overcome those scenarios.

[3ba11]

You keep saying favored, compared to who? They weren't favored against the Clippers in 2020 or 2021. They aren't favored over the Warriors. So they lose to teams favored to beat them, and they beat a team they were favored to lose to( Phoenix). And they got further without Porzingis than with him. Looks like Kristaps was a link in the chain they could afford to lose. So, what was your point again?

On the subject of 'brand'..... The Jazz had the 1st ORTG this year, the Suns were 4th. And both teams were more talented than the Mavs( especially Phoenix). Interesting that the 'bad brand' managed to overcome those scenarios.


Anyone can win a couple carry-job series but Luka-ball yields a low team ceiling that will have a lottery record against Finals-caliber teams regardless of cast, just like Lebron

[Phoenix]

Anyone can win a couple carry-job series but Luka-ball yields a low team ceiling that will have a lottery record against Finals-caliber teams, just like Lebron

The Mavs aren't a finals caliber team though. The fact that they got past the Suns means they already overachieved. Wasn't the Cavs in 89 favored over the Bulls and lost? So the Bulls overachieved, right? Then lost to the better team( Detroit), correct? So the Mavs overachieved against the Suns by winning, and are losing to the team they should be losing to. Anything the Mavs do past beating the Jazz in the first round is beating the odds.

So............................





































































































































































































what's your point?

[3ba11]

what's your point?


Without good brand of ball, he can't get over the hump without super-teams (extra talent).

Luka-ball yields a low team ceiling that will have a lottery record against Finals-caliber teams, just like Lebron.. Again, he needs super-teams and will still mostly lose and have underwhelming, underdog teams.. if history is any guide, I'll be right

[ImKobe]

Without good brand of ball, he can't get over the hump without super-teams (extra talent).

Luka-ball yields a low team ceiling that will have a lottery record against Finals-caliber teams, just like Lebron.. Again, he needs super-teams and will still mostly lose and have underwhelming, underdog teams

So just like Jordan's teams through his first 3 years in the league?

Luka beat the title favorites in the Playoffs (Suns were favored to win the chip as late as May 5th while the Mavs had worse odds than the Grizzlies & same odds as the Sixers with Embiid injured) while Jordan was getting swept at the same age. Just saying.

[3ba11]

So just like Jordan's teams through his first 3 years in the league?

Luka beat the title favorites in the Playoffs (Suns were favored to win the chip as late as May 5th while the Mavs had worse odds than the Grizzlies & same odds as the Sixers with Embiid injured) while Jordan was getting swept at the same age. Just saying.


Without a good brand of ball or having the skills to be coachable into something else, Luka will never get over the hump like Jordan did

Luka ties a coach's hands into playing 1 way (a vastly inferior way to the top brands) - so he'll never get over the hump to routinely dominate Finals-caliber teams the way Jordan did... Instead, he'll have a lottery record against Finals-caliber teams just like his idol Lebron..

Luka will need to add an entire branch of basketball to his skillset to win (learn to be an assist target).. Otherwise, he'll need super-teams (extra talent) to offset the garbage brand

[Phoenix]

Without good brand of ball, he can't get over the hump without super-teams (extra talent).

Luka-ball yields a low team ceiling that will have a lottery record against Finals-caliber teams, just like Lebron.. Again, he needs super-teams and will still mostly lose and have underwhelming, underdog teams.. if history is any guide, I'll be right

The only evidence we have right now is he's losing to teams that have a talent edge( Clippers, Warriors). There's literally not a single instance of him losing to a team that he should have beaten. So basically, you're harping on about brand when the biggest issue is the Warriors HAVE MORE TALENT ( which is heightened by the brand). Or are you trying to make the argument that Brunson and Dimwiddie are equal to Klay, Dray, and Poole?

[Phoenix]

So just like Jordan's teams through his first 3 years in the league?

Luka beat the title favorites in the Playoffs (Suns were favored to win the chip as late as May 5th while the Mavs had worse odds than the Grizzlies & same odds as the Sixers with Embiid injured) while Jordan was getting swept at the same age. Just saying.

Thank you. Jordan was losing in the EXACT same conditions.

[3ba11]

Thank you. Jordan was losing in the EXACT same conditions.


He never lost in the 1st Round with an all-star - stop lying

Nor did he get swept with a high seed

Nor was he uncompetitive in a series after his 2nd healthy season (87').

Jordan also took the 89' Pistons to 6 games despite 9 ppg from Pippen, while Luka is getting swept with 22 on 61 TS from Brunson

So no .. Luka is a joke compared to the goat standard

[Phoenix]

He never lost in the 1st Round with an all-star - stop lying

Nor did he get swept with a high seed

Nor was he uncompetitive in a series after his 2nd healthy season (87').

Jordan also took the 89' Pistons to 6 games despite 9 ppg from Pippen, while Luka is getting swept with 22 on 61 TS from Brunson

So no .. Luka is a joke compared to the goat standard

Neither has Luka, Porzingis wasn't an all-star while playing for the Mavs and only made a single team in a weaker eastern conference. Remember, the same weaker conference that you say Lebron took advantage of? Yeah, that one.

In fact MJ lost in the first round with Orlando Woolridge who was producing 23ppg, better than Kristaps since all you care about is PPG. You lose.

He lost 4-1 to the Pistons in 1988. I'd call that not competitive, and I'm fairly certain that year comes after 87.

Nobody is calling Luka the GOAT, so you're the only one making that argument about standards.

[3ba11]

Neither has Luka, Porzingis wasn't an all-star while playing for the Mavs and only made a single team in a weaker eastern conference. Remember, the same weaker conference that you say Lebron took advantage of? Yeah, that one.

In fact MJ lost in the first round with Orlando Woolridge who was producing 23ppg, better than Kristaps since all you care about is PPG. You lose.

He lost 4-1 to the Pistons in 1988. I'd call that not competitive, and I'm fairly certain that year comes after 87.

Nobody is calling Luka the GOAT, so you're the only one making that argument about standards.


Luka's skillset isn't coachable into a better brand of ball like Jordan's was - Jordan was already the best off-ball producer in the league, while Luka has literally zero off-ball production or ability (zero assisted rate).

So after Jordan's carry-jobs under Doug Collins ended, he was coached into a better brand of ball because his skillset allowed it - Luka is different because his zero assisted rate forces coaches to play 1 way (a simpleton, low-team-assist brand)

And again, Woolridge played with rookie Jordan.. He would've won with Jordan if he had a tenure with prime Jordan and in a 2-star parity era like Pippen did

[Phoenix]

Luka's skillset isn't coachable into a better brand of ball like Jordan's was - Jordan was already the best off-ball producer in the league, while Luka has literally zero off-ball production or ability (zero assisted rate).



And how would you know that after 4 seasons? 4 years into MJ's career they didn't know if his style would be coachable into a champion. Once again......you are arguing with the benefit of hindsight regarding MJ without a clue as to what Luka will or won't do in the future. I actually agree that Luka needs to evolve as an off-ball talent, and I'm on record as saying that multiple times. I'm just not stupid enough like you to act like I know what he will or won't develop in the future.

[3ba11]

And how would you know that after 4 seasons? 4 years into MJ's career they didn't know if his style would be coachable into a champion. Once again......you are arguing with the benefit of hindsight regarding MJ without a clue as to what Luka will or won't do in the future. I actually agree that Luka needs to evolve as an off-ball talent, and I'm on record as saying that multiple times. I'm just not stupid enough like you to act like I know what he will or won't develop in the future.


Phil Jackson can't run the triangle with Luka - he knows that long before he's ever coaching him.

He would know that after scouting him for a quarter

[Phoenix]

Phil Jackson can't run the triangle with Luka - he knows that long before he's ever coaching him.

He would know that after scouting him for a quarter

Sure, but the triangle has netted 11 championships in 75 years of NBA basketball. Which means that whatever system Luka ends up winning in, if he wins at all, has a high probability of being something OTHER than the triangle, which incidentally has a higher chance of success when you literally have GOAT level players at the center of it.

[Baller789]

Sure, but the triangle has netted 11 championships in 75 years of NBA basketball. Which means that whatever system Luka ends up winning in, if he wins at all, has a high probability of being something OTHER than the triangle, which incidentally has a higher chance of success when you literally have GOAT level players at the center of it.

Has there been any specific offensive system that has won more championships than the triangle? Or some variation of it in the NBA? Just curious.

[Phoenix]

Has there been any specific offensive system that has won more championships than the triangle? Or some variation of it in the NBA? Just curious.

I don't know, but most championship teams didn't have Michael Jordan, Shaq, or Kobe. Like the talent running the system has to be of some importance here.

[coastalmarker99]

Has there been any specific offensive system that has won more championships than the triangle? Or some variation of it in the NBA? Just curious.

The Triangle actually has won 13 titles in 75 of years of NBA basketball as the 1967 76ers and 1972 lakers used a lot of it.

[1987_Lakers]

Phoenix teabagging everyone in this thread.

[Shooter]

Warriors have 5 all stars vs 1 for the Mavs

Poole averages 26/5/5 on 64% TS without curry on the floor

Warriors missed the playoffs last year. Their ball movement didn't work without preposterous talent difference although they still had Curry, Wiggins, Dray, and Poole

First
Post
Slays
Hit
Different

FPSHD

[Full Court]

.
Ball-dominator drive-and-kick strategy expends the shot clock to set up 1 high-pressure look, while ball movement CHOOSES the best look:



I don't know how anyone who understands basketball can disagree with the above statement. Not only is it common sense, but it's illustrated on the court over and over.

[Baller789]

I don't know how anyone who understands basketball can disagree with the above statement. Not only is it common sense, but it's illustrated on the court over and over.

Well the Bronies seem to use mental gymnastics to sideskirt this.

[1987_Lakers]

Just a year ago, OP was shitting on Curry and the way the Warriors play ball.


No one expected Curry to destroy Oubre's game:


20' Oubre.... 18.7 on 45%... 35% threes.. 14.9 PER... 0.093 ws/48.... 0.7 vorp... -0.5 bpm
21' Oubre.... 11.7 on 35%... 22% threes.... 9.9 PER... 0.000 ws/48... -0.3 vorp... -4.4 bpm


Has there ever been an bigger example of someone's game getting destroyed like Curry did Oubre?..

This is an indictment on Curry and exposes him - Curry's less flexible 3-pointer game is only good for another 3-point bot like Klay.. So similar to lebron, curry's lack of scoring diversity hurts certain player types

Otoh, Jordan/Kobe's goat scoring diversity fit with everyone - so everyone grew alongside them - 19 ppg players like Oubre, Pippen or Gasol turn into all-nba

Pathetic.

[NBAGOAT]

I don't know how anyone who understands basketball can disagree with the above statement. Not only is it common sense, but it's illustrated on the court over and over.

this is only 50% true. yes luka's style expends the shot clock but he's also creating great looks. If he's holding it's because he's often waiting for a better look. ball movement can often just be pointless passes around the perimeter. player movement is even more important than ball movement for the warriors and they need their whole lineup to be able to pass well for their offense to be great(even looney). It's just not easy to run on most teams because most role players dont pass well and the downside of their system is all the turnovers. even if they themselves have high turnovers, an elite pnr guy usually leads an offense with low turnovers.

If you dont believe me about Luka, JJ redick cited a stat that had luka as the best in the league at improving shot quality for his teammates and it's this one https://twitter.com/SynergySST/status/1524924926838419456. you notice a trend with the top 5, they're all guys who take on the scoring+playmaking load which 3ball is hugely against.