Unusual pick for the fifth guy but I guess I understand feeling that way.

[Kblaze8855]

Someone under 30 or so at least.


https://www.hostpic.org/images/2205240227520360.jpeg

[SouBeachTalents]

He got the other 4 right. 5th spot could go to a number of players, I'd probably swap Dame with Nash.

[Phoenix]

Even if it was done by someone under 30, that individual surely would pick KD over Dame? I mean they're literally in the same era a couple years apart in age. And Reggie retired when a 30 year old would have been 13, so that can't be it.

[fsvr54]

I would put neither Reggie nor Lillard on that list. Max Strus is a better shooter than Reggie Miller.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Swap nash for curry and Durant for dame. Then it looks pretty good

[ImKobe]

I'd have put Harden over Dame for the 5th guy because he's 3rd in 3s made All-time with a significant lead over Dame and he will pass Ray Allen at some point. While Harden's 3PT% was never that elite, he did have a 3-year stretch of shooting 36.3% from 3 on 11.9 attempts per game and he's the one who really started those step-back 3s that everyone else is copying now.

[FultzNationRISE]

I would put neither Reggie nor Lillard on that list. Max Strus is a better shooter than Reggie Miller.


You may show yourself out.

[post]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukyFk4iTeBY

[Axe]

Lillard is the most unsuccessful fella rt. Poor dude has never gotten to the finals at all and still chooses to rot in portland.

[Shogon]

By what metric or even context does Lillard make that list?

Irrational Portland fan or irrational Lillard fan. That about sums it up.

We have numerous fans on this site that while they have discussions like rational human beings would, have completely irrational takes about their favorite team's star player. I mean this is pretty natural. Tribalism is something that is deeply embedded in us all, unfortunately.

[Shogon]

Anyways, Curry makes the list because of obvious reasons.

Ray Allen deserves to be there based on context, era and numbers.

Reggie Miller deserves to be there based on context, era and numbers.

After that it's a discussion because I think those are the only three.

What has Klay Thompson done to be considered a better shooter than Kyle Korver? Less 3P%, less 3PM, less FT%.

Why is he automatically a better shooter than Kevin Durant?

Than Dirk?

Nash?

Harden? Klay is way ahead on percentage but the types of three points attempted are vastly different and it might surprise some of you to know that Harden is ahead of Reggie on 3PM and will quite possibly only finish second to Steph in 3PM.

Context (your status on the team) has to be weighed in addition to the numbers. Klay has been in a supporting role his entire career, and compared to Korver as a supporting role he comes up short. Klay as the man would definitely not put up better shooting percentages than Dirk, Durant, etc.

Klay is certainly up there and I would say he's probably top 10 but I don't think it's indisputable that he's top 5.

[Kblaze8855]

It shouldn’t surprise anyone Harden is so high on the all time 3 list for makes. He took 13 threes a game at one point. In Reggie’s highest scoring season only two TEAMS took 10 and neither took even 11.

Hes effectively playing a whole different game.

[tpols]

Anyways, Curry makes the list because of obvious reasons.

Ray Allen deserves to be there based on context, era and numbers.

Reggie Miller deserves to be there based on context, era and numbers.

After that it's a discussion because I think those are the only three.

What has Klay Thompson done to be considered a better shooter than Kyle Korver? Less 3P%, less 3PM, less FT%.

Why is he automatically a better shooter than Kevin Durant?

Than Dirk?

Nash?

Harden? Klay is way ahead on percentage but the types of three points attempted are vastly different and it might surprise some of you to know that Harden is ahead of Reggie on 3PM and will quite possibly only finish second to Steph in 3PM.

Context (your status on the team) has to be weighed in addition to the numbers. Klay has been in a supporting role his entire career, and compared to Korver as a supporting role he comes up short. Klay as the man would definitely not put up better shooting percentages than Dirk, Durant, etc.

Klay is certainly up there and I would say he's probably top 10 but I don't think it's indisputable that he's top 5.

Yea Dirk and Nash for sure should be ahead of dame and klay.

[Shogon]

It shouldn’t surprise anyone Harden is so high on the all time 3 list for makes. He took 13 threes a game at one point. In Reggie’s highest scoring season only two TEAMS took 10 and neither took even 11.

Hes effectively playing a whole different game.

I think it should surprise some people... he's never been known as a knock down shooter and yet he's already 3rd all time in 3 point makes. I don't want to get too much into the weeds here because I'm not arguing that Harden is a better shooter than Klay, but the volume is so insanely different that it becomes difficult to judge when you consider the types of shots that they are taking. So would Klay even be a better shooter than Harden if Harden took mostly nothing but open spot up 3 point shots with Curry getting him those looks? Probably. I would guess so, yes, but I don't think we know for sure. Maybe someone has the stats on Harden's percentages on wide open looks vs Klay's and that would be a decent starting point.

And as far as previous eras go...

Larry Bird averaged 1.9 3PA per game for his career. And he got drafted in a year when every team in the league was averaging 2.8 3PA per game overall.

Does anyone think Larry Bird wouldn't be a more dominant 3 point shooter with volume AND percentage increases in an era in which teams finally put a ton of emphasis on practicing and taking them?


Anyways it's tough to know anything for sure because context varies so wildly from situation to situation, team to team, era to era, role to role... but my gut says Klay is not a top 5 shooter of all time. And Lillard definitely isn't.

[Kblaze8855]

Klay shot better from 3 as a rookie when Steph played 23 games than Harden did in any season of his career….including when he was 3rd option in OKC. This is a guy who made an nba record 14 threes without playing the 4th quarter. And it wasn’t even his best 3 quarter performance. This injury comeback season is Klays worst shooting ever and he’s at 39% on 9 attempts a game. Harden out here shooting 32% these days healthier than Klay. He’s just a better shooter than Harden.

Not like one is in a different league or has to play in a system that doesn’t encourage outside shooting. Harden just isn’t a top shooter. He’s a scorer who took so many threes he climbed the rankings. Lebrons up there too off sheer attempts.

I wonder where Lebron finishes. He was on pace to be top 5ish at one point but more shooters have come in since then.

[Bronbron23]

Someone under 30 or so at least.


https://www.hostpic.org/images/2205240227520360.jpeg

How is bird not in top 5 shooters ever?

[Shogon]

Klay shot better from 3 as a rookie when Steph played 23 games than Harden did in any season of his career….including when he was 3rd option in OKC. This is a guy who made an nba record 14 threes without playing the 4th quarter. And it wasn’t even his best 3 quarter performance. This injury comeback season is Klays worst shooting ever and he’s at 39% on 9 attempts a game. Harden out here shooting 32% these days healthier than Klay. He’s just a better shooter than Harden.

Klay gets insanely streaky both directions. Hitting 14 threes in 3 quarters only proves just that Klay is one of the streakiest players in NBA history. We all know this. When he gets hot, he's hot.

You said a bunch of stuff that didn't really take context of anything into account except for the OKC comment and I don't think that's entirely fair because clearly Harden got better at shooting as he got older.

So let me ask you this directly, do you think if you make Klay shoot the types of 3s that Harden was taking that Klay's percentages don't dip?

I agree, Klay is a better shooter. I just don't think it's as ridiculously obvious as you're making it.

Harden has taken insanely more difficult shots throughout his career as a whole than Klay has. It's not an opinion, it's a fact.

[Kblaze8855]

Its also not an opinion Kobe took more difficult threes than Peja or Korver. Taking stupid shots doesn’t make you a better shooter than…better shooters who aren’t playing a gimmicky style that loses.

Harden isn’t some Chris Jackson type in the wrong era who shoots 95% from the line and is on tape making like 140 threes working out who had bad numbers due to offenses not featuring him and limiting his ability to play naturally. He’s not a “Well you consider all the facts” great shooter.

Hes a great scorer who shot a lot of threes along the way and made the tough stepback his specialty…not to mention had a lot of his valid misses taken off the stat sheet because he fell on half of them to draw bs fouls but…that’s a whole other conversation. Who knows what he shot minus jumping forward for a whistle. I feel like you could probably add a miss every game in his prime which would absolutely tank the numbers but like I said…it would be a different topic. And hard to figure out.

To put it simple?

Shooting contest? I gotta pick a lot of guys over Harden if it’s a bet and Klay is one of them. Shot making contest? Different story. But shot making and shooting aren’t the same thing. I feel like we talked about that once with you somehow on the opposite side and me asking what you call a wild fadeaway jumper from Kobe If not shooting skill but I don’t remember the context. Maybe I can find that and we both look like hypocrites.

[Shogon]

Its also not an opinion Kobe took more difficult threes than Peja or Korver. Taking stupid shots doesn’t make you a better shooter than…better shooters who aren’t playing a gimmicky style that loses.

That's not an argument from my end.


Harden isn’t some Chris Jackson type in the wrong era who shoots 95% from the line and is on tape making like 140 threes working out who had bad numbers due to offenses not featuring him and limiting his ability to play naturally. He’s not a “Well you consider all the facts” great shooter.

I'm glad you brought up free throws... Harden actually has a higher career shooting percentage from the stripe than Klay does. I'm not even arguing that Harden is some misunderstood all time great shooter. What am I simply saying here is that you can't compare their career shooting ability based off of the numbers alone, free throw shooting maybe as the exception.


Hes a great scorer who shot a lot of threes along the way and made the tough stepback his specialty…not to mention had a lot of his valid misses taken off the stat sheet because he fell on half of them to draw bs fouls but…that’s a whole other conversation. Who knows what he shot minus jumping forward for a whistle. I feel like you could probably add a miss every game in his prime which would absolutely tank the numbers but like I said…it would be a different topic. And hard to figure out.

I don't want to defend James Harden. I think the guy is a POS in terms of on court integrity.


To put it simple?

Shooting contest? I gotta pick a lot of guys over Harden if it’s a bet and Klay is one of them. Shot making contest? Different story. But shot making and shooting aren’t the same thing. I feel like we talked about that once with you somehow on the opposite side and me asking what you call a wild fadeaway jumper from Kobe If not shooting skill but I don’t remember the context. Maybe I can find that and we both look like hypocrites.

Shot making and shooting aren't the same thing. You're right, but my overall point was and remains it's difficult to know for sure because their career roles and the context in which those shots were attempted is so wildly different... and Harden has the volume to back up the idea that he should at the very least be in the conversation.

Again, it's not an opinion, it's a fact, if you switch the two guys roles for their careers and they put up the same attempts, Klay's percentages would dip, and Harden's percentages would rise. So it's impossible to know. I suspect Klay is a better shooter, I've never argued he wasn't/isn't. If you were having a shooting contest, I'd also rather have Klay. I'm saying it's not as ridiculous as you make it out to be.

[Kblaze8855]

I’ll get to all that but….I’m one track minded and now I really wanna work out what Harden would have shot minus the times he faked being fouled on a 3. This is gonna mess with me for a while. It might literally be 30-32 percent some of those years.

You being as anti flop as you are I feel like you’d want to consider that.

[Shogon]

Of course his percentages would dip if the refs stopped calling those bullshit fouls that never happened in which he wasn't actually attempting a shot but threw it up anyways while being more focused on drawing a fake foul than actually attempting the shot. But you do know if he stopped getting those calls he would have stopped doing that shit which makes it impossible to hone in on, right?

That doesn't mean anything because it doesn't get to the root of the matter which is his actual shooting ability.

[Shogon]

James Harden is probably the most frustrating player in NBA history for me personally because he was so insanely good but played and plays like a complete and utter bitch.

I mean this guy was probably the best player in the NBA there for a very brief period of time, and yet he will never get my respect because of his garbage.

[Kblaze8855]

In 2021 someone worked out that he had drawn 521 fouls on 3s during his career and the closest entire TEAM in that time period was the Lakers with 421. I guess that minus his 4 point plays would give a place to start. But I don’t know how many are flops… I hate that I won’t be able to get the true number. I bet he shoots like 33% max minus flops having misses erased.

[Shogon]

In 2021 someone worked out that he had drawn 521 fouls on 3s during his career and the closest entire TEAM in that time period was the Lakers with 421.

:roll:

:facepalm


I guess that minus his 4 point plays would give a place to start. But I don’t know how many are flops… I hate that I won’t be able to get the true number. I bet he shoots like 33% max minus flops having misses erased.

And if the refs stop calling those fouls that didn't happen, he stops taking those attempts which makes your 33% irrelevant.

[Kblaze8855]

It’s all irrelevant. Id just be amused to get the real number. Not least of all because you’re arguing that somebody who might will miss 70% of the time minus ref erased misses is top five because taking 12000 gives him tremendous totals.

[999Guy]

Don’t really see Klay being better than Korver.

Bird belongs somewhere in here. Somewhere below Curry. Probably below Nash.

Korver I just feel spent an entire career being hounded on a level a lot of role players wouldn’t and he made half of all his rushed shots while keyed in on in his entire career. No question a better pure shooter than almost anybody ever.

Quick release, crazy off catch leaning, fading shot arsenal. He was GOATed. Curry is a the high volume Korver. Everyone else is mostly human. Maybe Nash is that in between human and freak.

[Shogon]

It’s all irrelevant. Id just be amused to get the real number. Not least of all because you’re arguing that somebody who might will miss 70% of the time minus ref erased misses is top five because taking 12000 gives him tremendous totals.

What you're saying is just erroneous.

The ONLY reason he kept shooting those stupid shots was because he was banking on the refs calling it. You can't just pretend that's not the case and hold it against him and pretend he missed all those shots and then also pretend like that's what his actual shooting percentage would be if refs didn't exist. It's just not correct and not true.

I don't think I ever said or suggested that he is a top 5 shooter of all time. What I questioned and continue to question is whether or not Klay is actually a better shooter. I believe Klay is. But my belief and actual reality do not necessarily line up, hence trying to examine all possible angles to determine "truth" which is indeterminable.

However, volume matters. Context of how the shots were taken matter.

It's not completely off the wall batshit absurd to say that Harden might be a better shooter than Klay, which was really what I was arguing. I was not arguing that Harden might be a top 5 shooter of all time. edit: I did say he should be in the conversation, so I'll give you that point I guess. He should be in the conversation though I personally do not have him top 5. My gut says he probably is top 10 and if not, very close to it.

As I said, Harden is a better career free throw shooter. That's not irrelevant. Given the wildly different situations, we do not know.

[Kblaze8855]

I’m Really wondering why you keep talking about volume as if Klay played 30 years ago. Coming off two major injuries with associated rust he took more than 9 3 a game this year in only 29 minutes. Three players did take more than that but the least minutes any of them played was 34. And taking that volume he shot His career low which would be a point in Harden favor except his career low is better than hardens career high which is on half those attempts.

Hes just a ridiculous shooter. He could realistically make like 17 threes at some point and probably will. You call it streaky…I just call it insane. It’s streaky when you are super hot and super cold. Klays cold is everyone else’s cold. Just normal bad nights. Certainly no more off than Harden who has some rarely seen in history terrible nights of shooting at times. He has up and downs like all humans but his up is hitting 8 heat checks in a row while having like 35 in a matter of moments or hitting 12-14 threes strolling into bad looks and shooting like he’s alone in the gym.

This really is like comparing Kobe to a Peja type. Taking harder shots doesn’t make you a better pure shooter. It helps explain total efficiency gaps of course but “He takes dumb shots” shouldn’t close the kinda gap between ok to good and great to goat and that’s the gap between Harden and a lot of these guys.

Harden can shoot. He’s a good shooter. He’s just not on the Steph/Reggie/Klay/Ray/Korver/whoever level of “Jesus Christ….” shooting.

[fsvr54]

I would put neither Reggie nor Lillard on that list. Max Strus is a better shooter than Reggie Miller.

There's many, many better 3 point shooters than Reggie Miller ever was.

[sbw19]

Like blaze said, there're levels to this. A dead-eye shooter would never pass up a wide-open shot. That's not who James Harden is. Is he even the best lefty shooter, over say the likes of Mullin?

One thing I'd like to know though, whether or not Harden has the record for most 4pt plays...wouldn't surprise me if he's actually the record holder.

[tpols]

The Golden Rule for GOAT shooting is the 50/40/90 club. That's sniper level from all distances.

According to Wikipedia these are the results:

'08 Steve Nash
'09 Steve Nash
'10 Steve Nash
'87 Larry Bird
'88 Larry Bird
'16 Steph Curry
'07 Dirk Nowitzki
'94 Reggie Miller
'13 Kevin Durant
'21 Kyrie Irving
'89 Mark Price
'19 Malcolm Brogdon (wow... didn't know this. Only non HOF talent)


So to omit Steve Nash and Larry Bird when they're the only two players ever to have multiple 50/40/90 club seasons? Is a disgrace. Shooting isn't just 3pt shooting. Its all shooting.

Curry and Miller are the only guys on OPs top 5 list that were even in the 50/40/90 club.

[Kblaze8855]

I believe Jose Calderon should be in there unless he’s omitted due to volume. I’m not sure what the minimum shots for it would be. Reggie was taking like 13 a game when I did it I’m sure. I remember people saying Korver might do 50/50/90 at one point but I guess he cooled off.

[post]

curry
nash
korver
reddick

all in the top 27 in career 3p% ft% ts%

[post]

15 korver was bananas

6th highest ts% of all time only behind 7 footers

he once made 99/100 3s in practice shooting 10 each in 5 different spots then repeating

curry made 105 3s in a row in practice standing in the same spot

both are

https://i.ibb.co/YQ0JfDc/000377497-1.jpg

[iamgine]

Not a bad list. I guess they won't include guys like JJ or Korver because they're usually like a 4th-5th option.

Lillard is in there because his range is unreal, perhaps even better than Curry on those shots.

[post]

nash had 13 seasons shooting in the 40s from 3 (not counting 97 with shortened line)

korver had 12

banana bros

https://i.ibb.co/TgYhfVH/202ebeef-6657-44ec-8fff-28352e.jpg

[plowking]

I’m Really wondering why you keep talking about volume as if Klay played 30 years ago. Coming off two major injuries with associated rust he took more than 9 3 a game this year in only 29 minutes. Three players did take more than that but the least minutes any of them played was 34. And taking that volume he shot His career low which would be a point in Harden favor except his career low is better than hardens career high which is on half those attempts.

Hes just a ridiculous shooter. He could realistically make like 17 threes at some point and probably will. You call it streaky…I just call it insane. It’s streaky when you are super hot and super cold. Klays cold is everyone else’s cold. Just normal bad nights. Certainly no more off than Harden who has some rarely seen in history terrible nights of shooting at times. He has up and downs like all humans but his up is hitting 8 heat checks in a row while having like 35 in a matter of moments or hitting 12-14 threes strolling into bad looks and shooting like he’s alone in the gym.

This really is like comparing Kobe to a Peja type. Taking harder shots doesn’t make you a better pure shooter. It helps explain total efficiency gaps of course but “He takes dumb shots” shouldn’t close the kinda gap between ok to good and great to goat and that’s the gap between Harden and a lot of these guys.

Harden can shoot. He’s a good shooter. He’s just not on the Steph/Reggie/Klay/Ray/Korver/whoever level of “Jesus Christ….” shooting.

You can't justify Klay in the top 5 when he doesn't even have a single season shooting above 90% from the FT line...

Klay isn't a better shooter than Irving. He just isn't. Reddick? Again, nope. Durant? Noooo.

[post]

1 of those 12 years korver was in the 50s setting the single season record at 53.6%

https://i.ibb.co/FHDqLWX/600bb9c108a4c.jpg

[Jasper]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glen_Rice

[plowking]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glen_Rice


Glen Rice was nice, but even he doesn't belong top 5.

There are too many guys that belong on the list over Klay though. I don't think he is all that close - especially considering everything that goes into shooting - including FTs.

Peja at his peak was a similar level of player - and he is a better shooter.

[post]

you could just look at the top 5 in ft% and call it a day

curry
nash
price
barry
stojakovic

[post]

if you take out rick barry since he shot underhanded from ft for his last 6 years and add the wnba you get

elena delle donne
stephen curry
steve nash
mark price
becky hammon

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/OrnateThankfulIndiancow-size_restricted.gif

[La Frescobaldi]

you could just look at the top 5 in ft% and call it a day

curry
nash
price
barry
stojakovic

1. Stephen Curry .9082
2. Steve Nash* .9043
3. Mark Price .9039
4. Peja Stojaković .8948
5. Chauncey Billups .8940
6. Ray Allen* .8939
7. Rick Barry* .8931
8. Damian Lillard .8927
9. J.J. Redick .8918
10. Calvin Murphy* .8916
11. Scott Skiles .8891
12. Reggie Miller* .8877
13. Larry Bird* .8857
14. Kevin Durant .8841
15. Bill Sharman* .8831
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ft_pct_career.html

[La Frescobaldi]

1. Stephen Curry .9082
2. Steve Nash* .9043
3. Mark Price .9039
4. Peja Stojaković .8948
5. Chauncey Billups .8940
6. Ray Allen* .8939
7. Rick Barry* .8931
8. Damian Lillard .8927
9. J.J. Redick .8918
10. Calvin Murphy* .8916
11. Scott Skiles .8891
12. Reggie Miller* .8877
13. Larry Bird* .8857
14. Kevin Durant .8841
15. Bill Sharman* .8831
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ft_pct_career.html

Then if looking at 3pt%

1. Steve Kerr .4540
2. Hubert Davis .4409
3. Seth Curry .4395
4. Joe Harris .4390
5. Dražen Petrović* .4374
6. Desmond Bane .4345
7. Jason Kapono .4336
8. Tim Legler .4312
9. Steve Novak .4301
10. Kyle Korver .4287
11. Steve Nash* .4278
12. Stephen Curry .4276
13. Luke Kennard .4250
14. B.J. Armstrong .4249
15. Wesley Person .4176
16. Klay Thompson .4168
17. Anthony Morrow .4166
18. J.J. Redick .4145
19. Matt Bonner .4145
20. Bryn Forbes .4126

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/fg3_pct_career.html

[post]

1. Stephen Curry .9082
2. Steve Nash* .9043
3. Mark Price .9039
4. Peja Stojaković .8948
5. Chauncey Billups .8940
6. Ray Allen* .8939
7. Rick Barry* .8931
8. Damian Lillard .8927
9. J.J. Redick .8918
10. Calvin Murphy* .8916
11. Scott Skiles .8891
12. Reggie Miller* .8877
13. Larry Bird* .8857
14. Kevin Durant .8841
15. Bill Sharman* .8831
https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/ft_pct_career.html

yeah barry drops a few spots if you count nba and aba stats

his nba % is higher because his last 6 years were his best when he shot underhand

[post]

Then if looking at 3pt%

1. Steve Kerr .4540
2. Hubert Davis .4409
3. Seth Curry .4395
4. Joe Harris .4390
5. Dražen Petrović* .4374
6. Desmond Bane .4345
7. Jason Kapono .4336
8. Tim Legler .4312
9. Steve Novak .4301
10. Kyle Korver .4287
11. Steve Nash* .4278
12. Stephen Curry .4276
13. Luke Kennard .4250
14. B.J. Armstrong .4249
15. Wesley Person .4176
16. Klay Thompson .4168
17. Anthony Morrow .4166
18. J.J. Redick .4145
19. Matt Bonner .4145
20. Bryn Forbes .4126

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/fg3_pct_career.html

kerr might hold that record a long time

[GimmeThat]

Ben Simmons should join the Warriors for a ring

[post]

Ben Simmons should join the Warriors for a ring

perhaps korver can teach him something


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5iC3H7gYrY

[post]

hubert davis is higher than kerr if you take out 3 years 95-97 with the shorter line