Why isn't Magic greater than Kareem?

[iamgine]

You look at the 80s Lakers and everyone would admit it was Magic's Lakers. Magic was still making the finals when Kareem fell off the wheel. Meanwhile Kareem was sometimes struggling to even make the playoff in the weak 70s.

I mean, I see the individual production but I don't see how anyone can say Kareem had a bigger impact. Seems to me Magic had way bigger impact on winning.

[Sulico]

Who said he isn't?

He is on my list, and I regularily see lists with Magic ahead of KAJ from mainstream media personalities.

[ArbitraryWater]

Kareem played twice as long lol

[Axe]

Yet the user Roundball Rock claims to have him on top of the goat list. Over the likes of mj, lbj, russell and such. :(

[TheGoatest]

Because Kareem just winning 1 chip without Magic, who has 0 chips without Kareem is enough to make Kareem the consensus higher of the two.
Now imagine if you could say that you won MULTIPLE chips without any particular player, as opposed to having all of your chips ball-and-chained to a single teammate/coach. :eek:

[FKAri]

Who said he isn't?

He is on my list, and I regularily see lists with Magic ahead of KAJ from mainstream media personalities.

Because Magic ahead of Kareem is a pro PR take. Magic was "better for the game" than Kareem. But few who actually played in the 70s think Magic is better than Kareem. The ones that do are sucking up to the media in some way or another.

[John8204]

His career was to short...it's hard to rank guys with less than 20K points unless they did something insane like establish the league (George Mikan). Kareem was 1/2/3 in PPG for an entire decade before Magic came along.

[bizil]

GOAT status is your overall career resume. Peak-prime shit is who is the best at their apex. Two different categories. GOAT wise, I gotta take Kareem. Peak-prime wise, I would take Magic by a bit over Kareem. Thing with Magic is he's the GODFATHER of positionless basketball. The media ALWAYS gives Magic props for being the GOAT PG. And Mt. Rushmore. Which are BOTH TRUE!

But the positionless basketball we see today,Magic ABSOLUTELY put on the map. Aren't many guys I would take over Kareem on a peak-prime level. But Magic is one of the RARE perimeter players I would take over Kareem peak-prime wise. Magic can do LESS WITH MORE than Kareem can. Can dominate games scoring from a pass first mindset. Is the best passer ever in my opinion. Can play all five positions if needed. But of course Kareem was so skilled and dominant I see the case over Magic peak wise. And the longevity of his great years was the gold standard until Bron.

[mr4speed]

You look at the 80s Lakers and everyone would admit it was Magic's Lakers. Magic was still making the finals when Kareem fell off the wheel. Meanwhile Kareem was sometimes struggling to even make the playoff in the weak 70s.

I mean, I see the individual production but I don't see how anyone can say Kareem had a bigger impact. Seems to me Magic had way bigger impact on winning.

I have to put Kareem ahead of Magic. Just looking at the 80's = Kareem was actually voted the FMVP after Magic's great game 6 in 1980 before the voters were asked to change their votes because Kareem was not present in Philly. In 83 Moses was a beast and outplayed Kareem but Magic shot 40.3% in that Finals series. In 84 Finals, Magic made several mistakes late in games and if LA had managed to win game 7, Kareem would have been FMVP. In 85 Kareem, had a terrible game 1, but in the next 5 games put up a per game of 28.4 points, 10.2 rebounds and 6.0 assists on 61% shooting and was the FMVP. Magic was not the go to player to take the last shot in games until the 86-87 season. I felt Kareem was the leader of the Lakers for Magic's first 7 seasons.

[ImKobe]

Idk, maybe because Kareem was the GOAT NCAA athlete and also had an entire HOF career & a ring before they even drafted Magic?

[Thenameless]

I felt Kareem was the leader of the Lakers for Magic's first 7 seasons.

Magic became the leader and best player almost right away. The Lakers were floundering with Kareem as their leader prior to Magic. Couldn't get out the west going up against the likes of Sikma (whom I like by the way).

[Kblaze8855]

You look at the 80s Lakers and everyone would admit it was Magic's Lakers..


Not at the time.

Fan perception looking back doesn’t reflect opinions at the time. It was Kareems team for quite a long time and it was understood. Magic wasn’t seen as elite the way Bird was right away.

You’d think so with the(CBS mandated) finals mvp he’d be the man but he really wasn’t.

[8Ball]

Too short a career.

Only 10 season really of Magic.

No longevity.

[Shooter]

Too short a career.

Only 10 season really of Magic.

No longevity.

+1

[Lakers Legend#32]

Magic is greater than Kareem.

[GimmeThat]

Magic's rhythm runs on 3/4, while most other players run on 4/4. So while those 2 can match together with spacing, it takes a much larger toll to run on 3/4, because you're running more measures.

[iamgine]

Not at the time.

Fan perception looking back doesn’t reflect opinions at the time. It was Kareems team for quite a long time and it was understood. Magic wasn’t seen as elite the way Bird was right away.

You’d think so with the(CBS mandated) finals mvp he’d be the man but he really wasn’t.

Well ok but the reality is nowadays almost everyone sees it as Magic's Lakers. Magic started placing higher than Kareem in MVP voting as soon as 81-82 season.

Given that, I'm not sure why almost everyone puts Kareem higher than Magic. Kareem had an NBA career full of losing until Magic arrived.

[WhiteKyrie]

Magic is … he’s a better basketball player, leader and winner.

Kareem is obviously top ten but kind of much like Oscar was a stat stuffing kind of overrated dude at the NBA level. Maybe even a loser with great stats and didn’t cultivate franchise winners.

Oscar is widely considered a top 15 guy. For awhile a top 10 guy before multiple generations after had transcendent talent that eventually would push him further down.

And then there was a time where people were making the argument that Magic Johnson was the best player of all time or at worst tied with Kareem, Wilt, Russell and Bird. Before Michael eclipse all of them.

So Kareem needed a top 15 guy and a Mount Rushemore guy in order to drag his bad attitude to rings. And he won an MVP when not making the playoffs. Kareem and Julius are the hardest to rank pre-merger, because much of their resume success and primes came before the modern NBA after the ABA merger.

The merger is what ultimately made the NBA the best basketball product it would see on planet earth.

For me I only like to really rank post merger.

Before that the game was still way too young in it’s primordial soup and formative stages.

Because at the same time people disrespect George Mikan but then prop up Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell and Kareem and Oscar Robertson and then shit on or underrate Jerry West, Elgin Baylor. So I kinda like to leave them out of the rankings. They were critical to developing the game, but too difficult to rank.

And I’ve thought a lot about this, especially post Curry’s recent FMVP and Title.

NBA Mount Rushmore:
1) Jordan - 5x MVPs
2) LeBron - 4x MVPs
3) Magic - 3x MVPs
4) Bird - 3x MVPs

Rest of the Best:
5) Shaq - MVP
6) Kobe - MVP
7) Duncan - 2x MVPs
8) Curry - 2x MVPs
9) Hakeem - MVP
10) Durant - MVP

Knocking On The Door:
11) Giannis - 2x MVPs

Steph and Giannis can go higher still and outside chance for KD to still move up.

[getting_old]

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is my choice for GOAT having watched the game since 1973.

The Winning Time tv show makes Kareem to be a total boss and everyone else a clown or fool, which I like a lot..

[WhiteKyrie]

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar is my choice for GOAT having watched the game since 1973.

The Winning Time tv show makes Kareem to be a total boss and everyone else a clown or fool, which I like a lot..
Actually it accurately portrayed him as a narcissistic total self-centered douche, that needed a rookie Magic Johnson to bring a winning attitude, to keep him from just playing to get meaningless baskets in the regular season, and to become a quality teammate for a change and eventually a winner. Magic inspired that out of him.

[Kblaze8855]

. Well ok but the reality is nowadays almost everyone sees it as Magic's Lakers.

People having a different opinion 30-40 years later isnt really an argument is it? What do people get more accurate about when their information is second or third hand? Or even first hand but 3 decades removed from it happening?

[getting_old]

Actually it accurately portrayed him as a narcissistic total self-centered douche, that needed a rookie Magic Johnson to bring a winning attitude, to keep him from just playing to get meaningless baskets in the regular season, and to become a quality teammate for a change and eventually a winner. Magic inspired that out of him.


the scene with Magic's father at the Johnson kitchen table and the scene with him telling Spencer Haywood he was the deciding vote are incredible

why are you so bitter and scornful against truth?

[FKAri]

People having a different opinion 30-40 years later isnt really an argument is it? What do people get more accurate about when their information is second or third hand? Or even first hand but 3 decades removed from it happening?

Unfortunately, more recent opinions can often rewrite history.

[iamgine]

People having a different opinion 30-40 years later isnt really an argument is it? What do people get more accurate about when their information is second or third hand? Or even first hand but 3 decades removed from it happening?

It's not an argument. It's the reality.

[Johnny32]

hiv

[HighFlyer23]

Kareem over Magic

[1987_Lakers]

Magic has no case over Kareem. Kareem played at a high level for 17 years, compared to Magic's 10-11 years.

Both peaked as the best player in the NBA at one point, but Magic was only there for one year ('87) while Kareem was pretty much the best player in the NBA for an entire decade ('71-'80).

[tpols]

Magic was still leading contenders and Finals teams without Kareem on the Lakers. And the Lakers were bummy before magic arrived. It's pretty clear that Magic ran "Showtime". He was the catalyst, the engine affecting all parts. Kareem doesn't have the leadership or teammate enhancement abilities of magic... that's pretty clear to see.

[iamgine]

Magic has no case over Kareem. Kareem played at a high level for 17 years, compared to Magic's 10-11 years.

Both peaked as the best player in the NBA at one point, but Magic was only there for one year ('87) while Kareem was pretty much the best player in the NBA for an entire decade ('71-'80).

Do we not consider Kareem's competition for best player, who was the likes of Mcadoo/Cowens most of the time. 70s was a pretty weak era. Yet Kareem managed plenty of first round losses and missing playoffs.

[coastalmarker99]

Anyone who watched those show-time teams would tell you Magic was the alpha dog on those teams from the moment he was a rookie.

Before Magic...the Lakers went five miserable years with Kareem and were basically either early-round cannon-fodder or were even swept by a team with a worse record, in the weakest era for title teams in NBA history.

Now with Magic...LA immediately won a title.

They averaged 59 wins per season in his 12 years...going to nine Finals (a Finals appearance in 75% of the seasons)...and five titles.

After Kareem retired ...the Lakers actually improved the very next season, going from a 57-25 record in Kareem's last year, to a league-leading 63-19 record the next year.

Then, Magic took a washed-up and injury-riddled cast to a 58-24 record and yet another final.

Then after Magic...the Lakers immediately plummetted to records of 43-39 and 39-43.

BTW, in their ten years playing together, Magic held a 3-1 edge in MVPS, a 3-1 edge in Finals MVPs, and outvoted Kareem in the MVP voting in eight of those ten seasons (the last eight BTW.)

So it is very clear as to who had the most impact on the Lakers in those ten years between Magic and Kareem.


Also if we examine Kareem's only title without Magic in the 1971 season.

The Bucks were wiped out by the Knicks in the previous season, 4-1. They subsequently acquired Oscar and ran roughshod over the NBA in '71.

Kareem was magnificent that season (IMHO it was his greatest all-around season if you include the post-season.)

However, has any title team ever had an easier road to a title than Kareem's Bucks that year?

They beat a 41-41 Warrior team in the first round of the playoffs.

Then, in the next round, they beat a 48-34 Laker team that was without their second and third best players in the entire post-season (West and Baylor), and while an aged Wilt, only a year removed from major knee surgery battled Kareem to a statistical draw, the Bucks overwhelming edge in talent was just too much for LA to overcome.

Then, Kareem's Bucks swept a 42-40 Bullets team in the Finals.

[coastalmarker99]

10 out of the top 20 NBA players statistically in 1976-1977 and 21 of the top 100 players had been in the ABA the year prior.

http://www.apbr.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=833

You couple that with an increase of 14-22 teams during Kareem's Prime (a drastic % increase- biggest ever), and, you have to consider that perhaps the 70's were not- at all on par with the depth and quality of other eras.

I wanted to find out which ATG Players faced the best teams in the Playoffs, so I looked at the Net Rating of opposing teams (for every series) for each player and ran the numbers using this criteria but for overall opponent production.

Lower -2.0 Net Rating: Bad Team

From -2.0 to +1.9 Net Rating: Average Team

From +2.0 to +3.9 Net Rating: Good Team

From +4.0 to +6.0 Net Rating: Elite Team

Above +7.0 Net Rating: All-Time Great Team

Performance Against The Very Best: Versus Elite + All Time Great Teams

Magic: (39.2% of total games): 39.9 MPG, 19.3 PPG, 7.8 RBS, 12.3 AST, (+3.9 tTS%)

Kareem: (27.1% of total games): 39.4 MPG, 27.1 PPG, 12.4 RBS, 3.3 AST, (+4.6% rTS%)

[1987_Lakers]

Do we not consider Kareem's competition for best player, who was the likes of Mcadoo/Cowens most of the time. 70s was a pretty weak era. Yet Kareem managed plenty of first round losses and missing playoffs.

That's a valid point, but Magic himself didn't dominate the league from the jump like Kareem did, regardless of who was in the NBA.

The longevity edge Kareem has over Magic is pretty overwhelming.

[WhiteKyrie]

Magic was still leading contenders and Finals teams without Kareem on the Lakers. And the Lakers were bummy before magic arrived. It's pretty clear that Magic ran "Showtime". He was the catalyst, the engine affecting all parts. Kareem doesn't have the leadership or teammate enhancement abilities of magic... that's pretty clear to see.
Agreed. And my entire point. Look, someone with a brain.

[iamgine]

That's a valid point, but Magic himself didn't dominate the league from the jump like Kareem did, regardless of who was in the NBA.

The longevity edge Kareem has over Magic is pretty overwhelming.

If you 'dominate' in an era of Mcadoos/Cowens then surely it's not 'regardless'. That is if we can call plenty of first round losses and missing playoffs as 'dominate'.

Magic's longevity is around Jordan and Bird. Pretty normal longevity.

[kawhileonard2]

Because Kareem just winning 1 chip without Magic, who has 0 chips without Kareem is enough to make Kareem the consensus higher of the two.
Now imagine if you could say that you won MULTIPLE chips without any particular player, as opposed to having all of your chips ball-and-chained to a single teammate/coach. :eek:

Or imagine you never played with a teammate who ever won league or finals mvp and you turned a franchise that never won into a dynasty?

[1987_Lakers]

If you 'dominate' in an era of Mcadoos/Cowens then surely it's not 'regardless'. That is if we can call plenty of first round losses and missing playoffs as 'dominate'.

Magic's longevity is around Jordan and Bird. Pretty normal longevity.

He dominated right away at age 22 with defenders like Wilt & Thurmond in the league at their defensive prime.

What you fail to realize is that the 70's although garbage had numerous hall of fame centers. Kareem probably competed with more HOF centers than any other center in history.

- Kareem
- Wilt
- McAdoo
- Cowens
- Walton
- Gilmore
- Lanier
- Unseld
- Thurmond
- Moses

These are all hall of fame centers who were all-stars at one point in the 70's. You can't find a decade that had this many great centers, 90's had better top tier centers, the 70's has them beat in terms of depth in that position.

What's next? MJ wasn't a dominant player in '87 because he lost in the 1st round? lol.

[1987_Lakers]

I also forgot Willis Reed for 1970. Make that 11 hall of fame centers.

[iamgine]

He dominated right away at age 22 with defenders like Wilt & Thurmond in the league at their defensive prime.

What you fail to realize is that the 70's although garbage had numerous hall of fame centers.

- Kareem
- Wilt
- McAdoo
- Cowens
- Walton
- Gilmore
- Lanier
- Unseld
- Thurmond
- Moses

These are all hall of fame centers who were all-stars at one point in the 70's. You can't find a decade that had this many great centers, 90's had better top tier centers, the 70's has them beat in terms of depth in that position.

What's next? MJ wasn't a dominant player in '87 because he lost in the 1st round? lol.
See, those are actually pathetic. Against a garbage era with competition like the Unselds, plenty of first round losses and missing playoffs. Also, got swept by Walton. C'mon man. :lol

[WhiteKyrie]

Anyone who watched those show-time teams would tell you Magic was the alpha dog on those teams from the moment he was a rookie.

Before Magic...the Lakers went five miserable years with Kareem and were basically either early-round cannon-fodder or were even swept by a team with a worse record, in the weakest era for title teams in NBA history.

Now with Magic...LA immediately won a title.

They averaged 59 wins per season in his 12 years...going to nine Finals (a Finals appearance in 75% of the seasons)...and five titles.

After Kareem retired ...the Lakers actually improved the very next season, going from a 57-25 record in Kareem's last year, to a league-leading 63-19 record the next year.

Then, Magic took a washed-up and injury-riddled cast to a 58-24 record and yet another final.

Then after Magic...the Lakers immediately plummetted to records of 43-39 and 39-43.

BTW, in their ten years playing together, Magic held a 3-1 edge in MVPS, a 3-1 edge in Finals MVPs, and outvoted Kareem in the MVP voting in eight of those ten seasons (the last eight BTW.)

So it is very clear as to who had the most impact on the Lakers in those ten years between Magic and Kareem.


Also if we examine Kareem's only title without Magic in the 1971 season.

The Bucks were wiped out by the Knicks in the previous season, 4-1. They subsequently acquired Oscar and ran roughshod over the NBA in '71.

Kareem was magnificent that season (IMHO it was his greatest all-around season if you include the post-season.)

However, has any title team ever had an easier road to a title than Kareem's Bucks that year?

They beat a 41-41 Warrior team in the first round of the playoffs.

Then, in the next round, they beat a 48-34 Laker team that was without their second and third best players in the entire post-season (West and Baylor), and while an aged Wilt, only a year removed from major knee surgery battled Kareem to a statistical draw, the Bucks overwhelming edge in talent was just too much for LA to overcome.

Then, Kareem's Bucks swept a 42-40 Bullets team in the Finals.
Facts

[Kblaze8855]

See, those are actually pathetic. Against a garbage era with competition like the Unselds, plenty of first round losses and missing playoffs. Also, got swept by Walton. C'mon man. :lol


Kareem has 40/17 on 74% to Walton’s 14/17 but his guards have 15 turnovers because they can’t deal with the press:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AngelicDismalAllosaurus-size_restricted.gif



^3 straight plays.

And it’s “Walton swept Kareem”.


Walton couldn’t guard Kareem. Nobody but Nate and Wilt could come close. That’s why he was getting triple teamed that series:



https://thumbs.gfycat.com/PastFarKillerwhale-size_restricted.gif



The double and triple teams finally held him to his worst game which was 21/20/8/7 with him passing out to open teammates to do nothing with as they lost and the post game interview mentioned how much better the laker guards handled the press that game….allowing only 12 steals.

You watch those games it’s an absolute backcourt massacre.

But of course…if people remember it the opposite 40 years later that’s the “reality”.

[mr4speed]

Anyone who watched those show-time teams would tell you Magic was the alpha dog on those teams from the moment he was a rookie.

Before Magic...the Lakers went five miserable years with Kareem and were basically either early-round cannon-fodder or were even swept by a team with a worse record, in the weakest era for title teams in NBA history.

Now with Magic...LA immediately won a title.

They averaged 59 wins per season in his 12 years...going to nine Finals (a Finals appearance in 75% of the seasons)...and five titles.

After Kareem retired ...the Lakers actually improved the very next season, going from a 57-25 record in Kareem's last year, to a league-leading 63-19 record the next year.

Then, Magic took a washed-up and injury-riddled cast to a 58-24 record and yet another final.

Then after Magic...the Lakers immediately plummetted to records of 43-39 and 39-43.

BTW, in their ten years playing together, Magic held a 3-1 edge in MVPS, a 3-1 edge in Finals MVPs, and outvoted Kareem in the MVP voting in eight of those ten seasons (the last eight BTW.)

So it is very clear as to who had the most impact on the Lakers in those ten years between Magic and Kareem.


Also if we examine Kareem's only title without Magic in the 1971 season.

The Bucks were wiped out by the Knicks in the previous season, 4-1. They subsequently acquired Oscar and ran roughshod over the NBA in '71.

Kareem was magnificent that season (IMHO it was his greatest all-around season if you include the post-season.)

However, has any title team ever had an easier road to a title than Kareem's Bucks that year?

They beat a 41-41 Warrior team in the first round of the playoffs.

Then, in the next round, they beat a 48-34 Laker team that was without their second and third best players in the entire post-season (West and Baylor), and while an aged Wilt, only a year removed from major knee surgery battled Kareem to a statistical draw, the Bucks overwhelming edge in talent was just too much for LA to overcome.

Then, Kareem's Bucks swept a 42-40 Bullets team in the Finals.


Magic was not the alpha dog as a rookie. He was the media spotlight. In his second year when Magic missed 45 games, LA won 28 while losing 17. Magic did not make the all NBA first team his first 3 years in the league. Kareem was the alpha dog on the court. Here is Magic from his book titled "Touch" page 74 on taking the last shot in a game - "Kareem, Jaamal and Norm all wanted the big shot. But when my turn came, I wasn't ready. I was scared to go for it because for so many years I wasn't the guy....Kareem was the first option, Jaamal 2nd and Norm 3rd. I just got crumbs, but that was cool; that's all I wanted. But that attitude finally caught up with me in 1984 when I experienced the low points in my career during the championship series against Boston". In 1984 Magic had played 5 seasons. He used that as motivation to improve and did. Another point about after Magic retired is Vlade Divac missed 45 more games that season and James Worthy was lost for the season in game 54 with his knee injury. These 2 things were also key contributing factors to LA's poor season besides missing Magic - context needs to be included.

[Lakers Legend#32]

Kareem could not win sh!t with the Lakers till Magic showed up.

[Round Mound]

I feel Kareem was better till the 1984-85 season. After that it was Magic.

[Pointguard]

Not at the time.

Fan perception looking back doesn’t reflect opinions at the time. It was Kareems team for quite a long time and it was understood. Magic wasn’t seen as elite the way Bird was right away.

You’d think so with the(CBS mandated) finals mvp he’d be the man but he really wasn’t.

Magic and Bird changed the league, immediately. Magic changed the Laker's immediately. Magic got the franchise contract, immediately. The Lakers looked totally different, immediately. They had a different attack, immediately. They were a cerebral, smart passing team, immediately. Their indomitable spirit was noticeable immediately. Kareem's Lakers were slow, deliberate, and could be confused rather easily. It was Magic's team.

[Pointguard]

Anyone who watched those show-time teams would tell you Magic was the alpha dog on those teams from the moment he was a rookie.

Before Magic...the Lakers went five miserable years with Kareem and were basically either early-round cannon-fodder or were even swept by a team with a worse record, in the weakest era for title teams in NBA history.

Now with Magic...LA immediately won a title.

They averaged 59 wins per season in his 12 years...going to nine Finals (a Finals appearance in 75% of the seasons)...and five titles.

After Kareem retired ...the Lakers actually improved the very next season, going from a 57-25 record in Kareem's last year, to a league-leading 63-19 record the next year.

Then, Magic took a washed-up and injury-riddled cast to a 58-24 record and yet another final.

Then after Magic...the Lakers immediately plummetted to records of 43-39 and 39-43.

BTW, in their ten years playing together, Magic held a 3-1 edge in MVPS, a 3-1 edge in Finals MVPs, and outvoted Kareem in the MVP voting in eight of those ten seasons (the last eight BTW.)

So it is very clear as to who had the most impact on the Lakers in those ten years between Magic and Kareem.


Also if we examine Kareem's only title without Magic in the 1971 season.

The Bucks were wiped out by the Knicks in the previous season, 4-1. They subsequently acquired Oscar and ran roughshod over the NBA in '71.

Kareem was magnificent that season (IMHO it was his greatest all-around season if you include the post-season.)

However, has any title team ever had an easier road to a title than Kareem's Bucks that year?

They beat a 41-41 Warrior team in the first round of the playoffs.

Then, in the next round, they beat a 48-34 Laker team that was without their second and third best players in the entire post-season (West and Baylor), and while an aged Wilt, only a year removed from major knee surgery battled Kareem to a statistical draw, the Bucks overwhelming edge in talent was just too much for LA to overcome.

Then, Kareem's Bucks swept a 42-40 Bullets team in the Finals.

Solid points.

[WhiteKyrie]

Magic and Bird changed the league, immediately. Magic changed the Laker's immediately. Magic got the franchise contract, immediately. The Lakers looked totally different, immediately. They had a different attack, immediately. They were a cerebral, smart passing team, immediately. Their indomitable spirit was noticeable immediately. Kareem's Lakers were slow, deliberate, and could be confused rather easily. It was Magic's team.

Great guards and wings with guard skills > big men. Magic, Bird, Isiah, Jordan, Kobe, Wade, LeBron, Durant, Steph, are undeniable proof of this

[Pointguard]

Great guards and wings with guard skills > big men. Magic, Bird, Isiah, Jordan, Kobe, Wade, LeBron, Durant, Steph, are undeniable proof of this
True.

Before Kareem it was about the centers. In Kareems prime he was the best player but his style of play wasn't super conducive in getting wins. One definitely could argue Rick Barry, Walt Frazier, Gus Williams were a bit more impressive in winning. And the 70's didn't have dynastic great teams like the 80's did. The 70's didn't have back to back champions. Its plausible that Kareem would only have 1 ring without the great point guards.

[coastalmarker99]

True.

Before Kareem it was about the centers. In Kareems prime he was the best player but his style of play wasn't super conducive in getting wins. One definitely could argue Rick Barry, Walt Frazier, Gus Williams were a bit more impressive in winning. And the 70's didn't have dynastic great teams like the 80's did. The 70's didn't have back to back champions. Its plausible that Kareem would only have 1 ring without the great point guards.

If the NBA hadn’t basically scammed New Orleans out of the pick that ended up being Magic.


Kareem probably retires with only one ring.

https://www.deseret.com/1992/7/16/18994586/goodrich-tells-his-side-in-jazz-magic-deal?_amp=true


It's also interesting that Wilt at (ages 33-36) vs. Kareem (ages 22-25):

1970-73:

RS: 9-8 Wilt > KAJ
PO: 5-6 Wilt < KAJ (1-1 in PO series)
Total: 14-14 Wilt = KAJ


Wilt made more finals in the 1970s than Kareem did despite only playing for four years lol.


And he also won more rebounding titles as well.