I’m genuinely curious what your stance is on the softness of the league since……

[Kblaze8855]

…..many of you respond to such claims with claims that old games were thug ball or not even making basketball plays.

Im not sure I don’t live in a bit of an echo chamber since all my friends remember when plays like this didn’t get you ejected and may just be a common foul:


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AptLegitimateFirecrest-size_restricted.gif






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I could show you dozens more….some not even being called fouls at all. But we don’t need to do that. You know what I’m talking about. They review the lightest head brush or arm rake for a flagrant these days and bitch as we do…as I said….

These kinda talks always have lots of younger fans saying that old style of rim protection wasn’t basketball. No skill. Just thugs. Whatever.


But at the same time we all complain about the soft flagrants and quick ejections now. So which is it?

Did Dale deserve ejection for the above play? The attempted murder of MJ….same question.

Is that thug ball you want eliminated or do you hate how soft they call it now?

You kinda have to pick a side.

[FultzNationRISE]

Somewhere between the two extremes.

I think a good general rule of thumb is, just dont review flagrants. If you cant TELL in real time it was a flagrant, then it wasnt a flagrant.

If the crowd ooohs and ahhhs after a big hit, and players start scuffling... call a flagrant, and review it to confirm.

Dont stop play so that you can scour through the video for a possibile opportunity to precisely follow the letter of the law.

If you see a flagrant, blow the whistle. If you dont see one, dont.

The reviews are beyond embarassing.

[Kblaze8855]

One bit of compromise I feel they could make is keeping the shots and the ball rule but remove the automatic tech associated so you aren’t ejected for say…a soft head tap and a power tripping ref. You see when they first made the flagrant foul in the 80s you didn’t get ejected for them. They added that in the 90s and even then all flagrants weren’t technicals so you could theoretically get like 4 flagrants in a game so long as none of them had extra shit. Shoving….taunting…just being a dick.


For example Danny Manning gets two flagrants here but remains in the game so he can later join in the massive brawl his actions helped fan the flames for:





https://youtu.be/_5_EUndeH7E






I so love that era of ball because of the hatred teams played with. Even actual friends…on the floor…the physical nature made games intense. Guy knocks the shit outta you and instead of being gone you have to keep playing him. A guy like Rodman might have 4 plays in a game that gets you possibly ejected now:




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The resulting hatred made for compelling games and series.

We lost a lot of the emotional side of playoff matchups with the quick triggers and making guys think twice before a hard playoff foul.

Forget the actual hard fouls….keep ‘em. I want the passion the resulting animosity resulted in.

I miss that more than the actual physical play. But that’s a hard distinction to make to fans who don’t remember it. It wasn’t all dirty just….passion. Passion and a thin coat of dirty.

[tontoz]

It was two things that caused the league to get too soft. First was Stern's response to the Malice in the Palace. Second was the league's reaction to the Billups Pistons physical, suffocating defense which to many wasn't fun to watch.

I think the league overreacted. I would prefer a middle ground between what the league is now compared to what it used to be.

[Kblaze8855]

The Nets had 39 points at the start of the 4th vs those Pistons in a playoff game. I want audio from sterns first meeting after that game.

[Hey Yo]

There's already enough injuries in today's game.

[Jasper]

Kblaze- You are wrong.

MJ era is was very very physical , where punches , elbows , etc ... all happened and the typical scores were never sniffing 100 points.
They softened the league with hand checking and then and now players can run freely to spots as well as to the rim.
Boston , Heat and even the Bucks have pushed the refereeing to higher levels of acceptance of physicality , but it is the playoffs and typically the league
allows the players to control the games. (which it is)
1/2 the fouls not called are called in the regular season , due to refereeing the rules as well as the players looking for an edge.

This playoff year , seldom players are complaining , and part of the reason is enforcement of technical fouls if a player confronts a ref.

Games are over a 100 points for a reason and players are adapting to the rules(.)

[Kblaze8855]

Scores were always often 100 even with ignored hand checking. The 80s had some of the highest scoring teams ever even without shooting threes. You’re talking about the late 90s into the mid 2000s when it slowed down so much. That was as much expansion as anything as teams had to rely on one or two competent scorers when they had a good number of options previously.

Imagine 2001 without Toronto, the Grizzlies, Raptors, Magic, Twolves, and Heat. It took a while for talent to catch up and that combined with the success of slow it down defensive coaches getting teams to play above their heads(and the much better preparation with better scouting) made for a great defensive era.

The fouls alone didn’t keep anything down. The fouls were during 110-126 games of back and forth action. Jordan didn’t enter during an insane defensive era. He just ended during one.

[ImKobe]

Players/teams have always gamed the refs & the rules in general, but the rules now favor the offensive player to a ridiculous extent, where defenders are forced to flop/fall down in order to get the call in their favor. I thought the league had the right kind of balance in the 07-15 range, but now I feel like they have to make certain rule changes in order to go back into the right direction, though I doubt they'll ever do that as the product is more appealing to the casual fans.

[Manny98]

My biggest issue is how they hand technicals for the smallest trash talk/staring down your opponent nowadays

Guys like KG and Rodman would break the record for most technicals in a season if they played today


https://youtu.be/XSonbpfAaSc

[Kblaze8855]

I’m really not sure it is more appealing to them they just don’t know any better. If a series unfolded like the old 76ers/Celtics, Celtic/Pistons, Bulls/Knicks or Celtic/Lakers social media would explode. Fans don’t even have a reference point for that kind of intensity.

They think they understand from clips and shit but they don’t. Teams don’t hate each other like that anymore and their play reflects it. The intensity isn’t half what it was and the product suffers.

[tontoz]

My biggest issue is how they hand technicals for the smallest trash talk/staring down your opponent nowadays

Guys like KG and Rodman would break the record for most technicals in a season if they played today


https://youtu.be/XSonbpfAaSc


That was pathetic :facepalm

[Kblaze8855]

Seriously imagine two of the biggest stars on the best teams today had a rivalry like the Celtics and 76ers in the 80s. Say Lebron and KD or Giannis.

Playoff series. 7 games of fights and hard fouls. Amazing basketball too but the teams hate each other.

Lebron gets dunked on

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/PowerlessAngryAntarcticfurseal-size_restricted.gif


Minutes later a hard foul that leads to one of his teammates fighting a KD fan:



https://thumbs.gfycat.com/BountifulAccomplishedAlaskankleekai-size_restricted.gif




No ejection. Play an epic back and forth series:



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Every future meeting is personal.


There are crazy endings and hard fouls galore:





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[Kblaze8855]

At least 3 more fights break out one of which sees Bron destroy KD and talk shit leading to Bron being held down by Harden and Kyrie as KD goes to work:



https://thumbs.gfycat.com/EnormousAdvancedKakapo-size_restricted.gif







And it goes on like that.


The rivalry would be bigger than anything in basketball now and fans would eat it up.

Those old teams fueled by hatred had so many personal incidents.


Casual fans aren’t nearly as interested in the nba as they were in the 80s and 90s to me. People don’t talk about it in public the same. The games and series are just less must see.

Modern fans think they like the product now because they have nothing to compare it to. Those “thugs” or whatever simply created more interesting games to watch.

Reffing the 80s and 90s like today just makes for less great memories.

[tpols]

Id much rather the fighting era where guys genuinely duked it out than today's flopping pussified era.

[Kblaze8855]

Id much rather the fighting era where guys genuinely duked it out than today's flopping pussified era.


This here is all from the years BEFORE the famous Bird/Doc fight:








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This is a preseason game:



https://thumbs.gfycat.com/GroundedAssuredAsianpiedstarling-size_restricted.gif



It was literally “On sight” for some of those guys.


Red went and challenged Moses Malone to a fight(foolishly but still).


These teams genuinely did not like each other and it showed in the will to win.

Teams just don’t play that hard when it isn’t personal. Modern fans think they wouldn’t like it but I promise….you’d cancel all other plans if rivalries like that still existed.

It was must see tv.

[tontoz]

Bird would fight just because. I remember reading about his college days. He redshirted his first year at ISU so when the team scrimmaged he played with the second team.

One day one of the starters got in a fight with one of the second teamers so Bird just pummels the starter. The bench guys were his guys.

It didn't take much for him to fight.

[tontoz]

As a side note Stern's dress code was really ridiculous.

[tpols]

This here is all from the years BEFORE the famous Bird/Doc fight:








https://thumbs.gfycat.com/CautiousMediocreAmericanwigeon-size_restricted.gif






https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FelineAlertDromaeosaur-size_restricted.gif



This is a preseason game:



https://thumbs.gfycat.com/GroundedAssuredAsianpiedstarling-size_restricted.gif



It was literally “On sight” for some of those guys.


Red went and challenged Moses Malone to a fight(foolishly but still).


These teams genuinely did not like each other and it showed in the will to win.

Teams just don’t play that hard when it isn’t personal. Modern fans think they wouldn’t like it but I promise….you’d cancel all other plans if rivalries like that still existed.

It was must see tv.

Nice. I'd much rather lived in that era. Today is a ****ing joke.

[FKAri]

In some ways it is too soft. In some ways it isn't soft enough. The issue is that a regular foul shouldn't be a flagrant just because it looks bad. Intention and regard for avoiding injuring the other player should be taken into account.

If I go for a block but smack you across the face because you turned in an awkward angle at the last second... That's not a flagrant but I've seen it being called as such.
If I block your shot and you end up contorting your body and falling like a sack of potatoes and hurt your leg... That's not a flagrant but I've seen it being called as such.
If I blow by you and you pull my shirt to stop me(like they do in Europe a lot), that's not a flagrant but it's not a regular foul either. That shit is something worse because it's not basketball..maybe a 2 shot + the ball kinda foul. I don't want to see stupid shit like this in basketball.

I find fouls of any kind ruin the flow of the game much moreso than the average fan. The problem is the rules for regular fouls, flagrants and technicals is subjective and entirely up to the official. I hate that players are walking an imaginary tight rope all game. Maybe one day we'll have rules that are more objective which is admittedly hard to do for a sport like this.


It was two things that caused the league to get too soft. First was Stern's response to the Malice in the Palace. Second was the league's reaction to the Billups Pistons physical, suffocating defense which to many wasn't fun to watch.

I think the league overreacted. I would prefer a middle ground between what the league is now compared to what it used to be.

It was inevitable though. A dramatic incident will always result in tighter regulations. The reverse does not happen. Not just in basketball but society at large.


As a side note Stern's dress code was really ridiculous.

True. But it's an image thing so it makes sense why he did it. It makes the money happy. It's like the Yankees dress code.

[Bronbron23]

…..many of you respond to such claims with claims that old games were thug ball or not even making basketball plays.

Im not sure I don’t live in a bit of an echo chamber since all my friends remember when plays like this didn’t get you ejected and may just be a common foul:


https://thumbs.gfycat.com/AptLegitimateFirecrest-size_restricted.gif






https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DangerousLoathsomeAntarcticgiantpetrel-size_restricted.gif





I could show you dozens more….some not even being called fouls at all. But we don’t need to do that. You know what I’m talking about. They review the lightest head brush or arm rake for a flagrant these days and bitch as we do…as I said….

These kinda talks always have lots of younger fans saying that old style of rim protection wasn’t basketball. No skill. Just thugs. Whatever.


But at the same time we all complain about the soft flagrants and quick ejections now. So which is it?

Did Dale deserve ejection for the above play? The attempted murder of MJ….same question.

Is that thug ball you want eliminated or do you hate how soft they call it now?

You kinda have to pick a side.

It's the softest era ever but that's just society as a whole. It is what it is. I obviously wish they'd bring real ball back but I Still love the game regardless.

[Kblaze8855]

Bird would fight just because. I remember reading about his college days. He redshirted his first year at ISU so when the team scrimmaged he played with the second team.

One day one of the starters got in a fight with one of the second teamers so Bird just pummels the starter. The bench guys were his guys.

It didn't take much for him to fight.



Yea Bird wasn’t one to talk. He’d just put hands on you. And he wasn’t alone. For all the shit the bad boys get the Celtics we’re just as ready. Bird would go to war at the drop of a dime. Dennis Johnson would fight. Parish would fight. Danny Ainge was a menace scoop slamming centers and sending them to the hospital with bites down to the bone. I’m sure you remember little Jerry fighting Ralph Sampson too but nobody else does so…..



https://thumbs.gfycat.com/EachVastFieldspaniel-size_restricted.gif





Walton, DJ, and Hakeem all got involved. Hakeem throwing wild haymakers. Neither he nor DJ got ejected. Walton either.

That team was wild. I saw a meme once about how Draymond would like….eat Larry Bird. All I could do was shake my head. Fans really have no idea how tough some of those non threatening looking guys were.

These teams today would have no idea what was happening facing the level of scrappy those teams were. They didn’t have one random scrub enforcer. 4-5 guys would stop the proceedings if they needed to let you know who you were ****ing with.

[BigShotBob]

Vaguely remember a fight where a player got his jaw shattered and stuff like that nobody wants to see. Ended his career. Stuff like that needs to go but it's not just the NBA that has been affected but the NFL too. When I played football we could head hunt and knock people out. Now they have to wrap around the legs and can't even go around the shoulders. Just a soft era in general