Toughness Posturing - why NBA Fans, Commentators do it

[bdonovan]

Maybe you've heard the term "Virtue Signaling" - it means when someone advocates a position, ie: on a political issue (like helping the poor), that makes them seem virtuous. The great thing about it is the person never has to DO anything that is actually virtuous, just say they support X policy or Y kind of people. It's a cheap way to gain status w/out actually being virtuous.

There is a similar dynamic but not to elevate one's perceived virtuosity (or goodness to others), but one's perceived Toughness. I call this "toughness posturing".

Men in particular want to seem tough with other men. So when we watch something like basketball, it's fashionable for even the most pudgy, out of shape clown to say things like "That wasn't a foul" (to an obvious foul), "Basketball is soft today" (even though said clown would be KO'd by the 1st quarter if he endured that much contact), "He's acting!" (when a player takes a legitimate shot to the head).

Doing this makes the observer seem tough in comparison to a 6'8" 230 lb chiseled athlete who is knocked to the ground. For a brief moment anyway.

Meanwhile, if someone is objective and gauges that there was sufficient contact, people nearby might think "Gee this guy is a sissy if he keeps claiming there are fouls. HE'S SOFT!".

Men trying to one-up each other in status isn't new- but when applied to sports, it manifests in things like "toughness posturing" usually by claiming actual fouls aren't fouls, men twice their size on the court are "wimps", etc.

[SATAN]

James Harden would literally beat the shit out of most of this forum. Good thread, OP.

[post]

i'm not out of shape and i'd say some of these guys act like sissies at least some of the time

not a good thread op

[Akeem34TheDream]

But they are soft relative to their sizes. No one calls Isaiah Thomas or Nate Robinson soft. The bigger they are, more acting it is. Foul topic is different and they should be seperated. That's often what people will complain about because they weren't fouls in the past. Game changes and not everyone is going to be happy about that. Similar to conservatives and changing politics.

[SATAN]

Game changes and not everyone is going to be happy about that. Similar to conservatives and changing politics.

Do you mind explaining what you mean here?

[Akeem34TheDream]

Softer fouls are called today compared to the past, no?

[post]

how about a middle ground between today's softness and kblaze's utopia when kermit washington almost killed rudy tomjanovich

[post]

kblaze is either one of the biggest internet tough guys ever or an actual sociopath

[post]

on second thought what's the difference

[Full Court]

So like 8Ball pretending he's not a janitor?

[Shooter]

So like 8Ball pretending he's not a janitor?

I've already posted some beautiful pictures of my condo. Care to post your living situation?

[RRR3]

I've already posted some beautiful pictures of my condo. Care to post your living situation?
Yikes forgot to switch alts?

[FultzNationRISE]

The rules and the proliferation of flopping ARE OBJECTIVELY SOFT compared to previous eras.

It’s not a debate. The evidence is empirical. There’s nothing “postural” in pointing out the obvious.

Also I remember during last year’s playoff OP was calling every commercial, every foul call, every question by the interviewer “racist.” The dude was obsessed. Everything that happened, he saw some subliminal racist motivation in it.

And I have a strong suspicion he’s a white guy :lol

So for him to make a thread about posturing and virtue signaling is pretty bizarre.

[Full Court]

I've already posted some beautiful pictures of my condo. Care to post your living situation?

I don't need to. I'm not an insecure poser. :lol

[Jasper]

Maybe you've heard the term "Virtue Signaling" - it means when someone advocates a position, ie: on a political issue (like helping the poor), that makes them seem virtuous. The great thing about it is the person never has to DO anything that is actually virtuous, just say they support X policy or Y kind of people. It's a cheap way to gain status w/out actually being virtuous.

There is a similar dynamic but not to elevate one's perceived virtuosity (or goodness to others), but one's perceived Toughness. I call this "toughness posturing".

Men in particular want to seem tough with other men. So when we watch something like basketball, it's fashionable for even the most pudgy, out of shape clown to say things like "That wasn't a foul" (to an obvious foul), "Basketball is soft today" (even though said clown would be KO'd by the 1st quarter if he endured that much contact), "He's acting!" (when a player takes a legitimate shot to the head).

Doing this makes the observer seem tough in comparison to a 6'8" 230 lb chiseled athlete who is knocked to the ground. For a brief moment anyway.

Meanwhile, if someone is objective and gauges that there was sufficient contact, people nearby might think "Gee this guy is a sissy if he keeps claiming there are fouls. HE'S SOFT!".

Men trying to one-up each other in status isn't new- but when applied to sports, it manifests in things like "toughness posturing" usually by claiming actual fouls aren't fouls, men twice their size on the court are "wimps", etc.

surprised Patrick or Jstern wasn't in here already talking politics.

In the NBA some of the contact is accidental and it looks like the guys head was taken off.
Other fouls are contact on whim fouls that are quite frankly bullshit.
Example a jumper at the three point line , ball is gone defender comes in and hits the shooting hand when the ball is long gone.
That's a puzzy foul. How bout the kick out foul when the jump shooter creates contact ?? The NBA ststaed that will be called on the offender , not defender.

But here is the facto about fouls: Athlete's are evolving where things are less common then now , and it's because of the evolution of athlete's are
getting bigger , stronger and SMARTER.
So rules in any sport are evolving as well.

Just think if the same basic rules were in place from 100 years ago , each sport we watch would appear corrupt.

[baudkarma]

I've always associated those kinds of comments more with homerism than anything else. If my guy gets bumped slightly I scream that the refs are letting the other team get away with murder. But if my guy clotheslines someone on the opposition I say the officials should just "let them play".

[bdonovan]

TL;dr - even as the game has changed, the temptation of fans to posture as tough in comparison to other men has never changed.

Just a few quick comments based on what some are saying. I remember watching NBA games in the 80s and 90s, and the way people would respond to the game is the same as today; which tells me that "toughness posturing" has nothing to do with the degree of flopping in the game, or refs blowing the whistle more often today than before. When the game was "hard", fans would posture; now if it's more "soft", people posture.

Which tells me this has nothing to do with some kind of objective evaluation of the kind of calls in the game, but a durable aspect of human nature- a need to say something about who you are based on your commentary on the game.

Then there are indisputable cases - where regardless of how calls have changed over years- I'll see an NBA commentator, typically a soft dough boy like Van Gundy, loudly proclaim something was not a foul even though replay after replay shows the NBA player got clocked. Since the contact is so obvious esp. on replay, it's clear he's not saying anything about the state of the NBA but rather how he'd like to be perceived.

This shouldn't be alien behavior to any guy who gets drinks with his buddies at the bar. We regularly posture to seem more savvy than other men, to seem less naive, to seem less weak. This is just one more example.

[red1]

I wont lie to you brother - NBA players aren't exactly the model of being tough or hard


I certainly dont admire these qualities in any nba players....

[bdonovan]

I've always associated those kinds of comments more with homerism than anything else. If my guy gets bumped slightly I scream that the refs are letting the other team get away with murder. But if my guy clotheslines someone on the opposition I say the officials should just "let them play".

That is definitely part of it. Race is a factor as well- if I'm white, and a white player gets hit, our mirror neurons fire (https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/04/100426113108.htm) and we scream for a foul. If a big dark-skinned black guy gets clocked, we overlook it and assume it's no big deal. If my theory on posturing is right, we may even be more likely to say the black guy should "deal with it, and quit being such a diva" if we are threatened by such a guy and think of him as someone we wouldn't want to meet in a dark alley.

One measure I use is of NBA commentators who try to be impartial and are less affected by rooting for the 'home team'. But they too engage in posturing, apart from homerism.

[bdonovan]

I wont lie to you brother - NBA players aren't exactly the model of being tough or hard


I certainly dont admire these qualities in any nba players....

I contend this is less about the NBA and more about the fan/commentator. The players could be hard, soft, whatever - the fan will still look to elevate themselves by downplaying the physicality and claiming they are 'soft'. You could stick the fan in the game and take a charge from LeBron and he would be squirming on the ground afterwards-- to offer him a different perspective. But even without that, objectivity as observers is not our strong suit- by nature, we always subconsciously seek to elevate ourselves at the expense of others.

[Round Mound]

Toughness Posturing i don't really enjoy. Especially when a very tall player dunks over a smaller or less athletic dude.