From 08-10 who was better Kobe or LeBron

[Manny98]

I keep going back and forth of who was the best player in the NBA for those years, on one hand LeBron has the clear advantage in advanced stats whilst Kobe had the edge in intangibles and knowing how to win, LeBron didn't master how to truly win until 2012

Was there a year where Kobe was the best player in the world?

[1987_Lakers]

'08 - Kobe
'09 - LeBron
'10 - LeBron

[ShawkFactory]

Kobe in 08 and 09. Bron in 10

[FultzNationRISE]

Lebron.

Defensive beast and could elevate an entire offense by himself. He was a genuine monster by this point. This question is frankly an insult.

Kobe was a great player, but in many ways his game was more ‘impressive’ than ‘impactful.’ Evidence supports the fact his iso points werent even that necessary to the Lakers’ success. Many nights they were more of a hindrance than a help.

Not tryin to run down Kobe or anything but lets be honest here. Lebron was CLEARLY a tier above him in value.

[Shooter]

Lebron.

Defensive beast and could elevate an entire offense by himself. He was a genuine monster by this point. This question is frankly an insult.

Kobe was a great player, but in many ways his game was more ‘impressive’ than ‘impactful.’ Evidence supports the fact his iso points werent even that necessary to the Lakers’ success. Many nights they were more of a hindrance than a help.

Not tryin to run down Kobe or anything but lets be honest here. Lebron was CLEARLY a tier above him in value.

100% This

[RRR3]

Kobe in 08 and 09. Bron in 10
Kobe has literally zero case in 09.

[eliteballer]

Juicehead LeBron cannot be in any valid comparisons.

[ImKobe]

KB easily.

Bran dominated the ball more and played for his stats but KB wasn't choking in the semis/ECF when it mattered.

And I really don't want to hear the stats argument when the same guys who shit on Kobe's numbers are making top 5/superstar arguments for Tatum this year when his advanced metrics are barely All-Star level in the RS/POs.

I'll take 30/6/6 over 3 straight Finals vs inflated ball-dominator stats in 2nd round/ECF chokes. Bran shot below 30% from 10-16 ft and 38.7% on long 2s and 32% on 3s for those Playoff runs and was also a poor FT shooter, which is why he came up short.

[tpols]

Wade was also heavily in the mix back then. Just as much as Kobe or LeBron.

[eliteballer]

Wade was also heavily in the mix back then. Just as much as Kobe or LeBron.

HGH head Wade had one good year.

[plowking]

Juicehead LeBron cannot be in any valid comparisons.

You know Kobe and MJ both used PEDs as well, right?

At this point you're just upset that Bron's body reacts to PED's better lol...

[NBAGOAT]

KB easily.

Bran dominated the ball more and played for his stats but KB wasn't choking in the semis/ECF when it mattered.

And I really don't want to hear the stats argument when the same guys who shit on Kobe's numbers are making top 5/superstar arguments for Tatum this year when his advanced metrics are barely All-Star level in the RS/POs.

I'll take 30/6/6 over 3 straight Finals vs inflated ball-dominator stats in 2nd round/ECF chokes. Bran shot below 30% from 10-16 ft and 38.7% on long 2s and 32% on 3s for those Playoff runs and was also a poor FT shooter, which is why he came up short.

tatum is contending for top 5 in many impact metrics, you're only looking at tatum's box score stats which arent that impressive but his impact is high a lot of because of his defense. That's something that gets overlooked, lebron being much better on defense than kobe in 09-10 too.

Lebron had his flaws back then and bad series but a big reason he didnt make the finals was he ran into better teams. There's no universe where you can argue kobe didnt have a significantly better supporting cast. Comparing lebron/kobe from 09-10 is not far off from comparing giannis and tatum this year(yes that's how dominant lebron was in 09/10). Ik giannis lost and had a meh series vs bostpn while tatum made the finals but it doesnt matter, giannis is just better

[Shooter]

Imagine a 2010 where LeBron gets Pau, Artest, Odom, Bynum and Fisher and Kobe gets Mo Williams and Anderson Varejao :roll::roll:

[RRR3]

tatum is contending for top 5 in many impact metrics, you're only looking at tatum's box score stats which arent that impressive but his impact is high a lot of because of his defense. That's something that gets overlooked, lebron being much better on defense than kobe in 09-10 too.

Lebron had his flaws back then and bad series but a big reason he didnt make the finals was he ran into better teams. There's no universe where you can argue kobe didnt have a significantly better supporting cast. Comparing lebron/kobe from 09-10 is not far off from comparing giannis and tatum this year(yes that's how dominant lebron was in 09/10). Ik giannis lost and had a meh series vs bostpn while tatum made the finals but it doesnt matter, giannis is just better
Ether. ImSniveling destroyed again.

[ShawkFactory]

HGH head Wade had one good year.

Outside of that one good year he won a championship. And had a very real MVP shot in 2007 before the injury.

[SouBeachTalents]

Kobe was better in '08, LeBron was better in '09 & '10. I feel like that 2 season stretch has almost become underrated since fans discount seasons that players didn't win championships, but LeBron was phenomenal over those two years minus the last 3 games against Boston.

[ImKobe]

tatum is contending for top 5 in many impact metrics, you're only looking at tatum's box score stats which arent that impressive but his impact is high a lot of because of his defense. That's something that gets overlooked, lebron being much better on defense than kobe in 09-10 too.

Lebron had his flaws back then and bad series but a big reason he didnt make the finals was he ran into better teams. There's no universe where you can argue kobe didnt have a significantly better supporting cast. Comparing lebron/kobe from 09-10 is not far off from comparing giannis and tatum this year(yes that's how dominant lebron was in 09/10). Ik giannis lost and had a meh series vs bostpn while tatum made the finals but it doesnt matter, giannis is just better

Nah, like JT's numbers are actually mid if we're trying to put him at a top 5 level. He's a really good defender but not even the best defensive player on his own team, and his numbers are a little better than Jaylen's as he's more of a playmaker & a better ballhandler, but their consistency on offense is about the same. KB's raw and advanced numbers were superstar level, and while Bran did more & played more minutes as that's how his team played, it did not work to the benefit of his teams. We've had this argument with Luka in these POs (even though I'm a Luka defender) and it really depends on match-ups and how the opposing team is choosing to play defense. KB played off-ball a lot more and his usage numbers were lower so his numbers weren't as flashy, but they were still ATG in a historical context and led to more wins.

Lebron was a better help defender but Kobe was better 1 on 1, some of the advanced metrics can get out of whack when a team is heavily reliant on one player, like we saw with Jokic this season.

Lebron had monster averages in the '09 Playoffs, but KB had the better On/Off and RAPM numbers. Sometimes sharing the ball isn't a bad thing, and teams did play Bran in single coverage in order to tire him out and not get his teammates as many open looks while KB was more of a play finisher like a 2nd 3-Peat Jordan and played within a team concept.

[Phoenix]

This is one of the most obvious 'you can expect A,B,C poster to answer Kobe and X,Y, Z poster to answer Lebron' questions in existence.

[ShawkFactory]

This is one of the most obvious 'you can expect A,B,C poster to answer Kobe and X,Y, Z poster to answer Lebron' questions in existence.

Seriously.

Anyone who says it’s easily either is dumb.

[NBAGOAT]

Nah, like JT's numbers are actually mid if we're trying to put him at a top 5 level. He's a really good defender but not even the best defensive player on his own team, and his numbers are a little better than Jaylen's as he's more of a playmaker & a better ballhandler, but their consistency on offense is about the same. KB's raw and advanced numbers were superstar level, and while Bran did more & played more minutes as that's how his team played, it did not work to the benefit of his teams. We've had this argument with Luka in these POs (even though I'm a Luka defender) and it really depends on match-ups and how the opposing team is choosing to play defense. KB played off-ball a lot more and his usage numbers were lower so his numbers weren't as flashy, but they were still ATG in a historical context and led to more wins.

Lebron was a better help defender but Kobe was better 1 on 1, some of the advanced metrics can get out of whack when a team is heavily reliant on one player, like we saw with Jokic this season.

Lebron had monster averages in the '09 Playoffs, but KB had the better On/Off and RAPM numbers. Sometimes sharing the ball isn't a bad thing, and teams did play Bran in single coverage in order to tire him out and not get his teammates as many open looks while KB was more of a play finisher like a 2nd 3-Peat Jordan and played within a team concept.

You can’t really use rapm for the playoffs, it’s a great stat but best used for looking at multiple regular seasons, sample size is too small. It wasn’t just advanced metrics, that was the common opinion too for the defense. Personally I can’t disagree with what you said I just think brons edge as a help defender is a lot bigger.

I would argue how lebron and Luka played was to the benefit of the team as the offensive talent on their team wasn’t there. Equal opportunity offenses are usually superior but don’t think they work well on not talented teams. I’ll ask you or anyone else to name a roster with one superstar and pure role players besides 1 or 2 guys that had great success and shared the ball and used their top guy as a play finisher predominately instead of feeding their top guy and asking him to create. I can’t think of one. Like the 94 rockets didn’t play around a ball handler but same idea. They fed hakeem in the post and he kicked out to others when doubled, it wasn’t anything like the current warriors or 14 spurs or any of Jackson’s title teams

[3ba11]

Kobe in 08 and 09. Bron in 10


After wetting the bed against the 08' Celtics (26 on 35%), Lebron averaged 21 on 34% to lose a 2-1 lead to the 10' Celtics - that means Kobe was better - mentally stronger and knew how to win.

So the 2011 Finals wasn't a one-off - Lebron consistently wet the bed against top teams from 07-11'.. he was nowhere near Kobe

[Wally450]

'08 - Kobe
'09 - LeBron
'10 - LeBron

Here's your answer folks.

[kawhileonard2]

'08 - Kobe
'09 - Kobe
'10 - Kobe

Lebron was losing with HCA to inferior teams that Kobe beat.

[ShawkFactory]

After wetting the bed against the 08' Celtics (26 on 35%), Lebron averaged 21 on 34% to lose a 2-1 lead to the 10' Celtics - that means Kobe was better - mentally stronger and knew how to win.

So the 2011 Finals wasn't a one-off - Lebron consistently wet the bed against top teams from 07-11'.. he was nowhere near Kobe

Bro Lebron won MVP in 2009 and I still took Kobe.

He was better in 2010. An overall more impactful and stronger player. Jumper started to come around slightly more that year. The bed-wetting he absolutely did in the last 3 games were due to extraneous factors. When he was engaged he dominated the Celtics in a way that Kobe wasn’t capable of at that time.

[RRR3]

Seriously.

Anyone who says it’s easily either is dumb.
It’s easily Kobe in 2008 and easily LeBron in 09 and 10. Simple.

[ShawkFactory]

It’s easily Kobe in 2008 and easily LeBron in 09 and 10. Simple.

No it isn’t simple. With my life on the line in 2009 I’m taking Kobe.

He started to decline a little bit in 2010 and Lebron surpassed him. Kinda like Giannis and KD right now. This time last year I’m probably taking KD but now it’s Giannis.

[3ba11]

Bro Lebron won MVP in 2009 and I still took Kobe.

He was better in 2010. An overall more impactful and stronger player. Jumper started to come around slightly more that year. The bed-wetting he absolutely did in the last 3 games were due to extraneous factors. When he was engaged he dominated the Celtics in a way that Kobe wasn’t capable of at that time.



2007 Finals..... 22 on 35%
2008 ECSF....... 26 on 35%
2010 ECSF....... 21 on 34% (last 3 games)
2011 Finals..... 18 ppg


Lebron's horrific performance each year against the top teams confirms that he was nowhere near Kobe

Even in 2009, he confirmed that he isn't good enough to beat a top 5 SRS opponent with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick (like Mo's 18 on 37%).. Lebron can't beat good teams with bed-wetting teammates because his high scoring levels are too ball-dominant to beat good teams.. He can only beat Finals teams with near-equal-scoring partners because his own high scoring levels are too ball-dominant... He needs to "tone it down" and have an equal-scoring partner - he can't just score a ton and have it be a winning brand of ball like Kobe/MJ

[Axe]

2007 Finals..... 22 on 35%
2008 ECSF....... 26 on 35%
2010 ECSF....... 21 on 34% (last 3 games)
2011 Finals..... 18 ppg


Lebron's horrific performance each year against the top teams confirms that he was nowhere near Kobe

Even in 2009, he confirmed that he isn't good enough to beat a top 5 SRS opponent with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick (like Mo's 18 on 37%).. Lebron can't beat good teams with bed-wetting teammates because his high scoring levels are too ball-dominant to beat good teams.. He can only beat Finals teams with near-equal-scoring partners because his own high scoring levels are too ball-dominant... He needs to "tone it down" and have an equal-scoring partner - he can't just score a ton and have it be a winning brand of ball like Kobe/MJ
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQz1yz51OHNulXBo1eB9yyiuRxO-MlchPTx6g&usqp=CAU

[ShawkFactory]

2007 Finals..... 22 on 35%
2008 ECSF....... 26 on 35%
2010 ECSF....... 21 on 34% (last 3 games)
2011 Finals..... 18 ppg


Lebron's horrific performance each year against the top teams confirms that he was nowhere near Kobe

Even in 2009, he confirmed that he isn't good enough to beat a top 5 SRS opponent with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick (like Mo's 18 on 37%).. Lebron can't beat good teams with bed-wetting teammates because his high scoring levels are too ball-dominant to beat good teams.. He can only beat Finals teams with near-equal-scoring partners because his own high scoring levels are too ball-dominant... He needs to "tone it down" and have an equal-scoring partner - he can't just score a ton and have it be a winning brand of ball like Kobe/MJ

I already have stated that I thought Kobe was ultimately better in 2009. You having to formulate the argument based on what you need isn’t healthy for anyone.

[Cold soul]

Kobe was better than Lebron from 08-10 winning MVP in 08 and back to back FMVP in 09-10 takes this over Lebron just better playoff runs and success.

[3ba11]

I already have stated that I thought Kobe was ultimately better in 2009. You having to formulate the argument based on what you need isn’t healthy for anyone.


Kobe was better in 2010 and 2011

Do I need to post Lebron's stats from the last 3 games of those seasons?

The 2011 Finals wasn't a 1-off - Lebron simply sucked against top comp at that time - see the 07-11 playoff where he was literally AIDS against the top comp

Lebron was getting 24 on 35% against the 07' Spurs and 08' Celtics, while Kobe averaged 30 on 50% against the 07' Spurs and about the same against the 08' Celtics.. Then Lebron fell apart in the 10' and 11' Playoffs.. he sucked compared to Kobe from 07-11'

[ClipperRevival]

2008 - Kobe
2009 - Kobe
2010 - Toss up

Please tell me in what world does a guy who wins a ring, wins FMVP and is the dominant force in the WCF and finals the lesser player? I am talking about 2009 of course.

You can take your FG% and TS% and shove it up your arse. A volume shooter who shoots a ton of midrange shots being judged by those stats is like judging a C on his FT%. Also, Kobe was an elite defender. 2010 was when he had that knee issue and free lanced more. But pre 2010, Kobe was healthy and an engaged defender. Lakers went 65-17 and chipped.

[Cold soul]

2008 - Kobe
2009 - Kobe
2010 - Toss up

Please tell me in what world does a guy who wins a ring, wins FMVP and is the dominant force in the WCF and finals the lesser player? I am talking about 2009 of course.

You can take your FG% and TS% and shove it up your arse. A volume shooter who shoots a ton of midrange shots being judged by those stats is like judging a C on his FT%. Also, Kobe was an elite defender. 2010 was when he had that knee issue and free lanced more. But pre 2010, Kobe was healthy and an engaged defender. Lakers went 65-17 and chipped.

Well said. The playoffs and NBA finals matter here when you're talking about the entire season and not just the regular season.

[HoopsNY]

I'm taking 2009 Kobe over LeBron. You can't ignore Kobe leading that team to 65 wins in the Western Conference, winning FMVP, while LeBron and co. lost to the same team with HCA.

[3ba11]

2008 - Kobe
2009 - Kobe
2010 - Toss up

Please tell me in what world does a guy who wins a ring, wins FMVP and is the dominant force in the WCF and finals the lesser player? I am talking about 2009 of course.

You can take your FG% and TS% and shove it up your arse. A volume shooter who shoots a ton of midrange shots being judged by those stats is like judging a C on his FT%. Also, Kobe was an elite defender. 2010 was when he had that knee issue and free lanced more. But pre 2010, Kobe was healthy and an engaged defender. Lakers went 65-17 and chipped.


2010 lebron and 2011 lebron are the same - he melted down in BOTH playoffs, so he's nowhere near Kobe until Wade taught him how to perform under pressure.. That's the historical record

[ShawkFactory]

2008 - Kobe
2009 - Kobe
2010 - Toss up

Please tell me in what world does a guy who wins a ring, wins FMVP and is the dominant force in the WCF and finals the lesser player? I am talking about 2009 of course.

You can take your FG% and TS% and shove it up your arse. A volume shooter who shoots a ton of midrange shots being judged by those stats is like judging a C on his FT%. Also, Kobe was an elite defender. 2010 was when he had that knee issue and free lanced more. But pre 2010, Kobe was healthy and an engaged defender. Lakers went 65-17 and chipped.

I know you’re talking about 2009. But if the warriors win are you prepared to tell me that Steph is better than Giannis right now?

[ClipperRevival]

I know you’re talking about 2009. But if the warriors win are you prepared to tell me that Steph is better than Giannis right now?

Different scenario. Kobe was 31 in 2009 and closer to his prime while Steph is 33.

And Kobe was dominant in the WCF against Denver and the finals against Orlando. Check the stats.

I seriously doubt Steph has that type of level in him at 33. But if he does Kobe type stuff and wins a FMVP, there will be talks.

But in the grand scheme of things, Giannis is just better right now due to his height, athleticism, impact and age.

[Shooter]

I know you’re talking about 2009. But if the warriors win are you prepared to tell me that Steph is better than Giannis right now?

Better yet, if Boston wins is he prepared to say Tatum is better than Giannis

[ClipperRevival]

Bron was definitely an athletic force 2008-2010 but he didn't know how to win yet. He needed to be humbled in 2010 and 2011 to go back to the drawing board and reinvent his game and mental fortitude.

2008-2010 Kobe was already a winner and knew how to win. That's why he went to 3 finals, won 2 chips and 2 fmvp and Bron went to 0 finals, 0 rings and 0 fmvp.

[kawhileonard2]

I know you’re talking about 2009. But if the warriors win are you prepared to tell me that Steph is better than Giannis right now?

Well Dwight and Dirk are better than Lebron as they beat him without HCA with inferior teams.

[NBAGOAT]

I'm taking 2009 Kobe over LeBron. You can't ignore Kobe leading that team to 65 wins in the Western Conference, winning FMVP, while LeBron and co. lost to the same team with HCA.

Well yea lebrons team is much worse. It’s crazy how that’s just being glossed over in this thread. 09 lebron is one of the best years of his career and it’s not a debate peak lebron>peak kobe even on here. It’s not a strong argument but the west-east record was close that year so you could argue the conferences were close. The west had more quality playoff teams but the East had the 3 best teams after the lakers and the west had a few awful teams.

Winning FMVP can close a regular season gap but it’s not always enough. Unless curry does something really special, Giannis is still bitw right now.

[NBAGOAT]

Different scenario. Kobe was 31 in 2009 and closer to his prime while Steph is 33.

And Kobe was dominant in the WCF against Denver and the finals against Orlando. Check the stats.

I seriously doubt Steph has that type of level in him at 33. But if he does Kobe type stuff and wins a FMVP, there will be talks.

But in the grand scheme of things, Giannis is just better right now due to his height, athleticism, impact and age.

Well stephs prime is better than Kobe’s prime while lebrons prime is better than Giannis’ so even if curry is a bit past his prime, it’s a good counterexample. It will take more than a kobe lvl finals to pass Giannis, steph needs more of a historically great series. Kobe was great but it’s not like a top 10 all time finals series.

Your last sentence applies directly to lebron vs kobe too in 09. Lebron was taller more athletic younger and had a higher impact. The main difference is Giannis got the benefit of the doubt because he won a title last year. It’s understandable but not how we should view players for how they played over an individual season. You’re basically saying if Kyrie wasn’t injured last season, Giannis wouldn’t be bitw right now

[ShawkFactory]

Different scenario. Kobe was 31 in 2009 and closer to his prime while Steph is 33.

And Kobe was dominant in the WCF against Denver and the finals against Orlando. Check the stats.

I seriously doubt Steph has that type of level in him at 33. But if he does Kobe type stuff and wins a FMVP, there will be talks.

But in the grand scheme of things, Giannis is just better right now due to his height, athleticism, impact and age.

I don’t need to check the stats I was there and watched. I agree that I would probably trust Kobe more during that period mindset wise. He was not a better player in 2010 though.

Lebrons impact was crazy then. Very similar to Giannis now.

[coastalmarker99]

Lebron would have killed to have someone good as Gasol in those three years.


Those were his stats in the 2009 playoffs.


Over 4 games against the Pistons, LeBron averaged 32.0 / 11.3 / 7.5 / 1.5 / 0.8 on 62% TS.


Over 4 games against the Hawks, LeBron averaged 33.8 / 8.3 / 6.0 / 2.5 / 0.5 on 66.6% TS.


Over 6 games against the Magic, LeBron averaged 38.5 / 8.3 / 8.0 / 1.2 / 1.2 on 59% TS.


Overall, he averaged 35.1 / 9.3 / 7.3 / 1.6 / 0.9 with 2.7 TOs on 61.8% True Shooting



Lebron utterly dominated the Magic compared to Kobe.



The only reason why the Lakers beat the Magic was that Gasol averaged 18 and 9 while shutting down Dwight who averaged 15 and 15.

Which was way down from what he averaged against the Cavs as he averaged 26 a game and shot 65% from the field in that series.

[3ba11]

Lebron would have killed to have someone good as Gasol in those three years.


Those were his stats in the 2009 playoffs.


Over 4 games against the Pistons, LeBron averaged 32.0 / 11.3 / 7.5 / 1.5 / 0.8 on 62% TS.


Over 4 games against the Hawks, LeBron averaged 33.8 / 8.3 / 6.0 / 2.5 / 0.5 on 66.6% TS.


Over 6 games against the Magic, LeBron averaged 38.5 / 8.3 / 8.0 / 1.2 / 1.2 on 59% TS.


Overall, he averaged 35.1 / 9.3 / 7.3 / 1.6 / 0.9 with 2.7 TOs on 61.8% True Shooting



Lebron utterly dominated the Magic compared to Kobe.



The only reason why the Lakers beat the Magic was that Gasol averaged 18 and 9 while shutting down Dwight who averaged 15 and 15


Lebron isn't good enough to beat a top 5 SRS opponent with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick (like Mo's 18 on 37%).. Lebron can't beat good teams with bed-wetting teammates because his high scoring levels are too ball-dominant to beat good teams.. He can only beat Finals teams with near-equal-scoring partners because his own high scoring levels are too ball-dominant.

[coastalmarker99]

The sad thing about the Magic beating the Cavs in 2009 was that the Finals with Cleveland-LA would have been a way better matchup too.



The Lakers could handle the Magic easily because they had Pau and Bynum who could actually guard Dwight (held him to 15ppg on 47% shooting.

And they had a ton of mobile length in Odom/Ariza/Luke/Kobe.

So they didn't have those matchup problems guarding Hedo/Rashard/Pietrus/Alston, who only shot 30-87 (34%) from three in the Finals.


Compared to the Cavs series in which Alston/Hedo/Pietrus/Lewis shot 55-127 (43%) from three

The team defence was just way different in the two series.

Cavs/Lakers would have been a different story though cause the Lakers didn't pose the matchup problems that the Magic did.


Bynum wasn't doing much offensively in 2009 so he couldn't have overpowered the Cav bigs the way Dwight did, Z and Varejao could actually guard Pau a little because he was a finesse big rather than amazingly fast (though he still would have gotten his),


Fisher couldn't burn Mo the way Alston did, and the Lakers didn't have a bunch of 3pt shooters to shoot over the Cavs' defence.



Would have been a pretty even matchup and I think LeBron would have pulled it out in 6 or 7.


As he historically owned Kobe in head to head matchups.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoEUd3YfnWc

[eliteballer]

The sad thing about the Magic beating the Cavs in 2009 was that the Finals with Cleveland-LA would have been a way better matchup too.



Lakers could handle Magic easily because they had Pau and Bynum who could actually guard Dwight (held him to 15ppg on 47% shooting.

And they had a ton of mobile length in Odom/Ariza/Luke/Kobe so they didn't have those matchup problems guarding Hedo/Rashard/Pietrus/Alston, who only shot 30-87 (34%) from three in the Finals.


Compared to the Cavs series in which Alston/Hedo/Pietrus/Lewis shot 55-127 (43%) from three

The team defence was just way different in the two series.

Cavs/Lakers would have been a different story though cause the Lakers didn't pose the matchup problems that the Magic did.


Bynum wasn't doing much offensively in 2009 so he couldn't have overpowered the Cav bigs the way Dwight did, Z and Varejao could actually guard Pau a little because he was a finesse big rather than amazingly fast (though he still would have gotten his),


Fisher couldn't burn Mo the way Alston did, and the Lakers didn't have a bunch of 3pt shooters to shoot over the Cavs' defence.



Would have been a pretty even matchup and I think LeBron would have pulled it out in 6 or 7.


As he historically owned Kobe in head to head matchups.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoEUd3YfnWc

Lakers beat Cleveland in both matchups that year..despite LeBron's steroid usage.

[kawhileonard2]

The sad thing about the Magic beating the Cavs in 2009 was that the Finals with Cleveland-LA would have been a way better matchup too.



Lakers could handle Magic easily because they had Pau and Bynum who could actually guard Dwight (held him to 15ppg on 47% shooting.

And they had a ton of mobile length in Odom/Ariza/Luke/Kobe so they didn't have those matchup problems guarding Hedo/Rashard/Pietrus/Alston, who only shot 30-87 (34%) from three in the Finals.


Compared to the Cavs series in which Alston/Hedo/Pietrus/Lewis shot 55-127 (43%) from three

The team defence was just way different in the two series.

Cavs/Lakers would have been a different story though cause the Lakers didn't pose the matchup problems that the Magic did.


Bynum wasn't doing much offensively in 2009 so he couldn't have overpowered the Cav bigs the way Dwight did, Z and Varejao could actually guard Pau a little because he was a finesse big rather than amazingly fast (though he still would have gotten his),


Fisher couldn't burn Mo the way Alston did, and the Lakers didn't have a bunch of 3pt shooters to shoot over the Cavs' defence.



Would have been a pretty even matchup and I think LeBron would have pulled it out in 6 or 7.


As he historically owned Kobe in head to head matchups.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoEUd3YfnWc

Lebron couldn't even beat Dwight Howard a career loser with HCA. Let's stop like he could beat Kobe in the playoffs.

[plowking]

Different scenario. Kobe was 31 in 2009 and closer to his prime while Steph is 33.

And Kobe was dominant in the WCF against Denver and the finals against Orlando. Check the stats.

I seriously doubt Steph has that type of level in him at 33. But if he does Kobe type stuff and wins a FMVP, there will be talks.

But in the grand scheme of things, Giannis is just better right now due to his height, athleticism, impact and age.


You've literally blabbered on and said nothing apart from the fact they're at different ages... lol

Steph has been dominant all playoffs. His per 36 minute numbers are better than Kobe's were in 09.

In the grand scheme of things - LeBron was just better than Kobe in 09 - due to height, athleticism, impact and age.

[kawhileonard2]

You've literally blabbered on and said nothing apart from the fact they're at different ages... lol

Steph has been dominant all playoffs. His per 36 minute numbers are better than Kobe's were in 09.

In the grand scheme of things - LeBron was just better than Kobe in 09 - due to height, athleticism, impact and age.

Lebron lost with HCA to Dwight Howard. Kobe beat Dwight Howard with HCA.

[coastalmarker99]

Lebron couldn't even beat Dwight Howard a career loser with HCA. Let's stop like he could beat Kobe in the playoffs.


He historically owned Kobe in head to matchups as in the regular season, they met 22 times, with LeBron dominating the series 16-6



Also from 2008 to 2010 here is how Lebron's teams went against Kobe's in the regular season.


In 2008 they were 2 and 0 vs the Lakers.


In 2009 they were 0 and 2 vs the Lakers.


In 2010 they were 2 and 0 vs the Lakers.



That is a record of 4 wins and 2 losses vs La in those three years.



Also, people forget that the Cavs actually played the 2008 Celtics closer than any other team they faced in the 2008 playoffs and that includes Kobe's lakers.

[3ba11]

.



Also, people forget that the Cavs actually played the 2008 Celtics closer than any other team they faced in the 2008 playoffs and that includes Kobe's lakers.




Lebron wet the bed with 26 on 35% against the 08' Celtics, so the Cavs went 7 games in spite of Lebron choking per his usual

Mike Brown's elite defenses carried the Cavs from 07-10'

[coastalmarker99]

Lebron isn't good enough to beat a top 5 SRS opponent with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick (like Mo's 18 on 37%).. Lebron can't beat good teams with bed-wetting teammates because his high scoring levels are too ball-dominant to beat good teams.. He can only beat Finals teams with near-equal-scoring partners because his own high scoring levels are too ball-dominant.

Paul dominated Dwight.

The Cavs' bigs got dominated by Dwight.


That was the difference between Kobe and Lebron that year.


Even the Lakers' writers said as much.

Tribute to Pau Gasol, NBA Champion

In these playoffs, and especially in the Finals against the beast of Dwight Howard, Pau Gasol proved otherwise. Howard is bigger, bulkier, and stronger, but it was Gasol who man-handled Superman, rather than the other way around.


As for "banging with the bigs" in the low post, Gasol didn't have any problem.

Andrew Bynum was on the bench for the majority of the postseason, and Gasol willingly stepped up as the Lakers' tough, capable center.


As I mentioned recently, he defended Howard better than any other center in the playoffs:

Pau Gasol defending Dwight Howard was expected to be a huge advantage for the bigger, stronger Howard, but Gasol's defense of Howard was masterful.

The Lakers provided Gasol with significant help, and their defensive scheme was hugely successful in frustrating Howard, but Gasol deserves a lot of credit for his defence on Howard.

According to ESPN DB, Dwight Howard was held to 4-10 shooting when guarded one-on-one by Gasol.

Gasol, meanwhile, was 9-19 when guarded one-on-one by Howard).

In Game 5, Gasol was the primary defender on Howard in 38 possessions –

in those 38 possessions, Howard didn't make a single field goal and went to the line only once, where he went 1-2, for a grand total of one point on 38 possessions with Gasol as his primary defender.

On the other end of the floor, the Magic simply had no answer for Gasol. In possessions where Gasol was guarded one-on-one by Howard, Gasol shot 9-19 from the field.

In the paint, he scored 56 points on 28-44 shooting from the field (63.6%), compared to Howard's 42 points on 21-42 shooting (50%).

Outside the paint, Gasol was 7-14 for 16 points, while Howard did not score a single point outside of the painted area.

Overall, Gasol shot 36-60 (60%) from the field, averaging 18.6 point, 9.2 rebounds, 1.8 blocks, and only a single turnover per game in the Finals.


Dwight Howard, on the other hand, shot 21-43 (48.8%) from the field, averaging 15.3 points and 15.4 rebounds per game.

While he did record an incredible four blocks per game, he also committed four turnovers per game, and in the end, it was Gasol who turned in the better defensive performance at the center position.

Gasol's offensive efficiency was simply off the charts in the Finals.


Despite mostly being guarded by the Defensive Player of the Year, his True Shooting Percentage was an incredible 64.7%.


While Howard's was a mortal 56.2% – not bad, but low for a dominant center, and significantly below his previous playoff TS% of 65.0% (not to mention his TS% of 68.8% against Cleveland).

Meanwhile, Gasol showed himself to be a fantastic rebounder.

While Howard got his rebounding numbers, the Lakers consistently dominated the boards, and a large part of that was due to Gasol's effort.

In particular, the Magic were unable to get much in terms of offensive rebounds, which was yet another subtle way in which Gasol and the Lakers limited the productivity of Howard, the master of the offensive rebound and putback.

Simply put, Pau Gasol was the true beast in the low post.


What he did both defensively and offensively in the Finals was not the work of a power forward playing out of position at center. That is the work of an elite NBA center, one of the best in the game.

How are you gonna counter that 3ball? They saying themselves that Pau dominated Dwight on both ends and they had the receipts to prove it.

[ClipperRevival]

You've literally blabbered on and said nothing apart from the fact they're at different ages... lol

Steph has been dominant all playoffs. His per 36 minute numbers are better than Kobe's were in 09.

In the grand scheme of things - LeBron was just better than Kobe in 09 - due to height, athleticism, impact and age.

Aren't you that Bron fan that was melting down hard when your boy missed the play in?

But anyways, here's Kobe's stats in the 2009 WCF and finals combined:

33.3/5.7/6.5

Take care cutie.

[3ba11]

Paul dominated Dwight.

The Cavs' bigs got dominated by Dwight.


That was the difference between Kobe and Lebron that year.


Even the Lakers' writers said as much.

Tribute to Pau Gasol, NBA Champion

In these playoffs, and especially in the Finals against the beast of Dwight Howard, Pau Gasol proved otherwise. Howard is bigger, bulkier, and stronger, but it was Gasol who man-handled Superman, rather than the other way around.


As for "banging with the bigs" in the low post, Gasol didn't have any problem. Andrew Bynum was on the bench for the majority of the postseason, and Gasol willingly stepped up as the Lakers' tough, capable center.


As I mentioned recently, he defended Howard better than any other center in the playoffs:

Pau Gasol defending Dwight Howard was expected to be a huge advantage for the bigger, stronger Howard, but Gasol's defense of Howard was masterful. The Lakers provided Gasol with significant help, and their defensive scheme was hugely successful in frustrating Howard, but Gasol deserves a lot of credit for his defense on Howard.

According to ESPN DB, Dwight Howard was held to 4-10 shooting when guarded one-on-one by Gasol (Gasol, meanwhile, was 9-19 when guarded one-on-one by Howard).

In Game 5, Gasol was the primary defender on Howard in 38 possessions –

in those 38 possessions, Howard didn't make a single field goal and went to the line only once, where he went 1-2, for a grand total of one point on 38 possessions with Gasol as his primary defender.

On the other end of the floor, the Magic simply had no answer for Gasol. In possessions where Gasol was guarded one-on-one by Howard, Gasol shot 9-19 from the field.

In the paint, he scored 56 points on 28-44 shooting from the field (63.6%), compared to Howard's 42 points on 21-42 shooting (50%).

Outside the paint, Gasol was 7-14 for 16 points, while Howard did not score a single point outside of the painted area.

Overall, Gasol shot 36-60 (60%) from the field, averaging 18.6 point, 9.2 rebounds, 1.8 blocks, and only a single turnover per game in the Finals.


Dwight Howard, on the other hand, shot 21-43 (48.8%) from the field, averaging 15.3 points and 15.4 rebounds per game.

While he did record an incredible four blocks per game, he also committed four turnovers per game, and in the end, it was Gasol who turned in the better defensive performance at the center position.

Gasol's offensive efficiency was simply off the charts in the Finals.


Despite mostly being guarded by the Defensive Player of the Year, his True Shooting Percentage was an incredible 64.7%.


While Howard's was a mortal 56.2% – not bad, but low for a dominant center, and significantly below his previous playoff TS% of 65.0% (not to mention his TS% of 68.8% against Cleveland).

Meanwhile, Gasol showed himself to be a fantastic rebounder.

While Howard got his rebounding numbers, the Lakers consistently dominated the boards, and a large part of that was due to Gasol's effort.

In particular, the Magic were unable to get much in terms of offensive rebounds, which was yet another subtle way in which Gasol and the Lakers limited the productivity of Howard, the master of the offensive rebound and putback.

Simply put, Pau Gasol was the true beast in the low post.


What he did both defensively and offensively in the Finals was not the work of a power forward playing out of position at center. That is the work of an elite NBA center, one of the best in the game.

How are you gonna counter that 3ball? They saying themselves that Pau dominated Dwight on both ends and they had the receipts to prove it.


Lebron hid from opposing point forward (Hedo) and guarded Rafer Alston.. So Hedo had great vision over Delonte for perfect entry passes to Dwight, while also seeing clearly on threes without Lebron to close out on him or Lewis (taller/quicker defenders required, aka Lebron)

Lebron and Coach Brown planned to save Lebron's energy by guarding Alston, which is pretty pathetic.

In addition to this massive defensive blunder (arguably the goat defensive blunder), Lebron wet the bed in the critical Game 4 OT that swung the series, while Dwight dominated..

Tight playoff series are won on the clutch possessions and this series was a great example of how Lebron loses those possessions and can't close games down the stretch.

Finally, Lebron has no carry-jobs against good teams in 2 decades of playing - specifically, he isn't good enough to beat a top 5 SRS opponent with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick (like Mo's 18 on 37%).. Lebron can't beat good teams with bed-wetting teammates because his high scoring levels are too ball-dominant to beat good teams.. He can only beat Finals teams with near-equal-scoring partners because his own high scoring levels are too ball-dominant.

[coastalmarker99]

Lebron wet the bed with 26 on 35% against the 08' Celtics, so the Cavs went 7 games in spite of Lebron choking per his usual

Mike Brown's elite defenses carried the Cavs from 07-10'



If Mike Brown's defences did as you say carry the Cavs from 07 to 10.


How come then the Cavs went from 61 wins to just 17 wins the season after Lebron left for Miami.


The truth is that Lebron was so impactful to those Cavs teams on both sides of the ball that no revisionist History that you say will change the facts.

[plowking]

Lebron lost with HCA to Dwight Howard. Kobe beat Dwight Howard with HCA.

And?

Can you name the Cavs start 5 from 2009 without looking at ESPN or basketball reference?
How about the Lakers 2009? Lakers had Odom coming off the bench who was better than anyone on the Cavs.

[3ba11]

If Mike Brown's defences did as you say carry the Cavs from 07 to 10.


How come then the Cavs went from 61 wins to just 17 wins the season after Lebron left for Miami.


The Cavs lost their entire starting 5, not just Lebron

They lost Mo, Varejao, Shaq, Delonte and Zydrunas, which was 52 ppg and more than Lebron's 30

you should be aware that team-hopping, colluding betas GUT teams.. that's what team-hoppers do.. Btw, those Cavs were only a 2nd Round team with Lebron - they were 2nd Round losers 3 times from 06-10' with HIGH SEEDS every time

[coastalmarker99]

Lebron hid from opposing point forward (Hedo) and guarded Rafer Alston.. So Hedo had great vision over Delonte for perfect entry passes to Dwight, while also seeing clearly on threes without Lebron to close out on him or Lewis (taller/quicker defenders required, aka Lebron)

Lebron and Coach Brown planned to save Lebron's energy by guarding Alston, which is pretty pathetic.

In addition to this massive defensive blunder (arguably the goat defensive blunder), Lebron wet the bed in the critical Game 4 OT that swung the series, while Dwight dominated..

Tight playoff series are won on the clutch possessions and this series was a great example of how Lebron loses those possessions and can't close games down the stretch.

Finally, Lebron has no carry-jobs against good teams in 2 decades of playing - specifically, he isn't good enough to beat a top 5 SRS opponent with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick (like Mo's 18 on 37%).. Lebron can't beat good teams with bed-wetting teammates because his high scoring levels are too ball-dominant to beat good teams.. He can only beat Finals teams with near-equal-scoring partners because his own high scoring levels are too ball-dominant.


I love how you ignore that in 2 of Cleveland’s losses to the Magic in that series that LeBron’s on-court plus/minus was positive.


That means the Cavs outscored the Magic in those games, but the Cavs bench gave up the lead when LeBron was sitting.

[coastalmarker99]

The Cavs lost their entire starting 5, not just Lebron

They lost Mo, Varejao, Shaq, Delonte and Zydrunas, which was 52 ppg and more than Lebron's 30

you should be aware that team-hopping, colluding betas GUT teams.. that's what team-hoppers do.. Btw, those Cavs were only a 2nd Round team with Lebron - they were 2nd Round losers 3 times from 06-10' with HIGH SEEDS every time


Lol just look how the Cavs collapsed when he wasn’t there to bail him out.
 

Biggest SRS dropoff in history:

1. 99 Bulls -15.82 (MJ/Pippen/Rodman)

2. 11 Cavs -15.05 (LeBron)

3. 97 Spurs -13.91 (Drob injured)

4. 91 Nuggets -11.88 (English)

5. 83 Rockets -10.73 (Moses)


If you look at some of LeBron’s highest minutes played guys they all fell off without LeBron.

Big Z- Out of the league 1 year later

Mo Williams- Went from 2nd option to 6th man the next year

Delonte West- Out of the league

Varejao- Same player, but injury-prone

Ben Wallace- Out of the league

Wally- 2009 was his final year, out of the league

Pavlovic- 10th man after he left Cleveland

Boobie Gibson- Bench player

Joe Smith- Out of the league

Hickson- became one of the worst players in the league after Lebron left.


It's amazing to me that people still can't see just how brutal those supporting casts were, and how amazing it was that he made the Cavs as relevant as they were.

[3ba11]

I love how you ignore that in 2 of Cleveland’s losses to the Magic in that series that LeBron’s on-court plus/minus was positive.


That means the Cavs outscored the Magic in those games, but the Cavs bench gave up the lead when LeBron was sitting.


Lebron lost 3 fourth quarter leads in that series because he shot 30% on jumpers in the 4th and he wet the bed in the critical Game 4 OT, while Dwight dominated.. He was simply horrible at closing games down the stretch at that time and it cost him because all the games were super-tight

And you're forgetting that the Cavs were -700 favorites and expected to SWEEP the Magic but Lebron's dumb defensive blunder made it a close series - big slow guys like Varejao were closing out on Lewis instead of Lebron, while Hedo saw clearly over Delonte, instead of being hounded by Lebron...

Imagine if Jordan decided to guard Jerome Kersey in the 92' Finals instead of locking down Drexler and Porter - the Bulls would've lost easily!!! I guarantee it!!!

[coastalmarker99]

Lebron hid from opposing point forward (Hedo) and guarded Rafer Alston.. So Hedo had great vision over Delonte for perfect entry passes to Dwight, while also seeing clearly on threes without Lebron to close out on him or Lewis (taller/quicker defenders required, aka Lebron)

Lebron and Coach Brown planned to save Lebron's energy by guarding Alston, which is pretty pathetic.

In addition to this massive defensive blunder (arguably the goat defensive blunder), Lebron wet the bed in the critical Game 4 OT that swung the series, while Dwight dominated..

Tight playoff series are won on the clutch possessions and this series was a great example of how Lebron loses those possessions and can't close games down the stretch.

Finally, Lebron has no carry-jobs against good teams in 2 decades of playing - specifically, he isn't good enough to beat a top 5 SRS opponent with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick (like Mo's 18 on 37%).. Lebron can't beat good teams with bed-wetting teammates because his high scoring levels are too ball-dominant to beat good teams.. He can only beat Finals teams with near-equal-scoring partners because his own high scoring levels are too ball-dominant.

The Cavs had trouble against the Magic every time because they couldn't guard them.

Cleveland's guards were not big enough to compete against Nelson (there it was OK) and Pietrus.


Then you had Turkoglu at SF (that was ok for LBJ to defend but against the other guys he was just too big) and then Lewis as a PF.


Ben Wallace was old and couldn't keep up with Lewis in the perimeter, much less big Z.


Cavs never solved that, since LBJ defending the PF would cause big trouble with Turkoglu.

Then they had Dwight who would put Ben Wallace in foul trouble quickly or just smash Z, Ilgauskas or JJ Hickson.

There was just no way for the Cavs to defend against them.

In the next year, against Boston, only LBJ defended Paul Pierce greatly,


And even not having an all time series vs Boston in 2010 LBJ actually did a better job than Kobe did in the finals.


The problem is the Cavs lost every other matchup. Rondo exploded in a stupid way and was even hitting FTs (Mo Williams disappeared in the playoffs as usual),

Ray had a much better series than Parker, Jamison couldn't keep up with KG.


Even the bench of the Celtics outplayed the bench of the Cavs badly.

[RRR3]

No it isn’t simple. With my life on the line in 2009 I’m taking Kobe.

He started to decline a little bit in 2010 and Lebron surpassed him. Kinda like Giannis and KD right now. This time last year I’m probably taking KD but now it’s Giannis.
You're wrong, it can literally be proven and having to resort to "life on the line" Skip Bayless arguments isn't helping your case. The impact data shows LeBron was on a different tier in 09. Kobe is not better than peak LeBron, this is a retarded thread.

[1987_Lakers]

Hickson- became one of the worst players in the league after Lebron left.


I forgot about JJ Hickson, he brought some nice energy on those Cavs teams and it looked like he might develop into something nice because he was so young. He quickly fell off, out of the NBA by age 27.

[coastalmarker99]

Lebron lost 3 fourth quarter leads in that series because he shot 30% on jumpers in the 4th and he wet the bed in the critical Game 4 OT, while Dwight dominated.. He was simply horrible at closing games down the stretch at that time and it cost him because all the games were super-tight

And you're forgetting that the Cavs were -700 favorites and expected to SWEEP the Magic but Lebron's dumb defensive blunder made it a close series - big slow guys like Varejao were closing out on Lewis instead of Lebron, while Hedo saw clearly over Delonte, instead of being hounded by Lebron...

Imagine if Jordan decided to guard Jerome Kersey in the 92' Finals instead of locking down Drexler and Porter - the Bulls would've lost easily!!! I guarantee it!!!


The Bulls were incredibly stacked in 1992 and were huge favourites over Portland who were known as chokers.


Can you imagine Lebron having the luxury of his team in the finals wiping a 15 deficit with him sitting on the bench?


As the Bulls did with Jordan in the fourth quarter of game 6 of the 1992 finals?


Hell Lebron sat 2 minutes in game 3 of the 2017 finals and the Cavs were outscored by a title of 12 points in those two minutes which ended up costing them the game.


As with Lebron on the floor, the Cavs were plus 7 against the Warriors.

[RRR3]

Well yea lebrons team is much worse. It’s crazy how that’s just being glossed over in this thread. 09 lebron is one of the best years of his career and it’s not a debate peak lebron>peak kobe even on here. It’s not a strong argument but the west-east record was close that year so you could argue the conferences were close. The west had more quality playoff teams but the East had the 3 best teams after the lakers and the west had a few awful teams.

Winning FMVP can close a regular season gap but it’s not always enough. Unless curry does something really special, Giannis is still bitw right now.
Yes it is, this is the stupidest board on the internet, as this thread is proving :lol

[coastalmarker99]

I forgot about JJ Hickson, he brought some nice energy on those Cavs teams and it looked like he might develop into something nice because he was so young. He quickly fell off, out of the NBA by age 27.


The retarded Cavs front office turned down a trade involving Hickson for Amare Stoudemire as they believed in his potential.

https://www.espn.com.au/nba/news/story?id=4913305

It's no wonder why Lebron left in 2010 as they refused to surround him with nothing more than Bums.

[RRR3]

LeBron destroys Kobe in every stat, outplays the same team Kobe faced in the final, but because he lost Kobe was better, completely ignoring the massive discrepancy in supporting cast. You are retarded if you think Kobe was better in 2009, it isn't up for debate. 2009 is quite possibly peak LeBron, Kobe was never on that level. It is like saying Devin Booker was better than Giannis this year.

[1987_Lakers]

It's amazing to me that people still can't see just how brutal those supporting casts were, and how amazing it was that he made the Cavs as relevant as they were.

Oh they know how bad of a supporting cast LeBron had those years, they are just trolling. Everyone around that time knew the Cavs were a one man team. Lakers had a very nice supporting cast, you couldn't find a better frontline than Gasol, Odom, & Bynum at the time, even with Bynum being injury prone. Odom in particular gets underrated now, people forget how good he was with us.

Even had Ariza in the '09 run, it seemed like he was hitting all of his shots in the '09 postseason and provided nice defense. Artest was a downgrade from him in the '10 run, but still provided defense and was clutch in that game 7 vs Boston.

All this "He didn't know how to win yet in those years" is nonsense. Bunch of small thinking posters who can't look at the bigger picture.

[coastalmarker99]

Oh they know how bad of a supporting cast LeBron had those years, they are just trolling. Everyone around that time knew the Cavs were a one man team. Lakers had a very nice supporting cast, you couldn't find a better frontline than Gasol, Odom, & Bynum at the time, even with Bynum being injury prone. Odom in particular gets underrated now, people forget how good he was with us.

Even had Ariza in the '09 run, it seemed like he was hitting all of his shots in the '09 postseason and provided nice defense. Artest was a downgrade from him in the '10 run, but still provided defense and was clutch in that game 7 vs Boston.



What people forget is despite being a one-man team just how close Lebron was to making three finals in a row from 2007 to 2009.



As If P.J Brown doesn't have the game of his life in that game seven.


The Cavs win that series and most likely beat the Pistons in the 2008 ECF to move on to the Finals to face the Lakers who they beat twice that season.



And in 2009 if the Cavs bench didn't shit the bed when Lebron was sitting they most likely beat the Magic.



In hindsight, I am glad that Lebron didn't make the finals in those years as even if he averaged a 40 point triple-double against Kobe's Lakers.


Had he lost




People would make fun of him for being 8 and 4 in the finals.


Plus Kobe stans would be insufferable.

[kawhileonard2]

Oh they know how bad of a supporting cast LeBron had those years, they are just trolling. Everyone around that time knew the Cavs were a one man team. Lakers had a very nice supporting cast, you couldn't find a better frontline than Gasol, Odom, & Bynum at the time, even with Bynum being injury prone. Odom in particular gets underrated now, people forget how good he was with us.

Even had Ariza in the '09 run, it seemed like he was hitting all of his shots in the '09 postseason and provided nice defense. Artest was a downgrade from him in the '10 run, but still provided defense and was clutch in that game 7 vs Boston.

All this "He didn't know how to win yet in those years" is nonsense. Bunch of small thinking posters who can't look at the bigger picture.

Lebron had Shaq/Jamison/Mo and lost. Kobe with Shaq and lesser players won 3 titles.

[coastalmarker99]

Honestly, If Lebron was drafted by a team like the pistons.



Or Memphis who had Gasol and who's gm was Jerry west.


Instead of the shitty Cavs.


He would have at least won 2 to 3 titles from 2003 to 2010.


And this dumb argument of he didn't know how to win yet in those years" wouldn't exist.

[Shooter]

Lebron had Shaq/Jamison/Mo and lost. Kobe with Shaq and lesser players won 3 titles.

Stop being a worthless poster. Nothing you say makes sense. Nothing is clever. Nothing is funny. Just a waste of bandwith. Is it the language barrier or what?

[coastalmarker99]

Lebron had Shaq/Jamison/Mo and lost. Kobe with Shaq and lesser players won 3 titles.


Kobe had prime Shaq who was the best player in the world.



Shaq in the 2000 finals averaged 38.0 points, 16.7 rebounds and 2.7 blocks.


To Kobe's 15.6 points, 4.6 rebounds and 4.2 assists on 36% shooting.



Lebron would have loved the luxury of having someone carry him like that in the finals.

[eliteballer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmB6YCUzgMU

[kawhileonard2]

Kobe had prime Shaq who was the best player in the world.



Shaq in the 2000 finals averaged 38.0 points, 16.7 rebounds and 2.7 blocks.


To Kobe's 15.6 points, 4.6 rebounds and 4.2 assists on 36% shooting.



Lebron would have loved the luxury of having someone carry him like that in the finals.

Lebron had prime Duncan/Iverson and won bronze medal. Lebron had that luxury. He had proven Shaq who already had 3 finals mvp and a league mvp along with allstar game mvp the prior year.

[coastalmarker99]

I don't get the argument that people say about Lebron didn't know how to win yet in those years.


As if other all-time great players had to deal with the supporting cast that Lebron had in those years they wouldn't have won shit as well.



Seriously like imagine Russell and other great players in place of Lebron on those squads.



Russell would be lucky to make the playoffs with Lebron's Cavs teams considering how dogshit his offensive game was.

[kawhileonard2]

I don't get the argument that people say about Lebron didn't know how to win yet in those years.


As if other all-time great players had to deal with the supporting cast that Lebron had in those years they wouldn't have won shit as well.



Seriously like imagine Russell and other great players in place of Lebron on those squads.



Russell would be lucky to make the playoffs with Lebron's Cavs teams considering how dogshit his offensive game was.

He had Shaq. That's enough to win. Kobe was able to win with him 3x, Wade 1x, but Lebron no?

[coastalmarker99]

Lebron had prime Duncan/Iverson and won bronze medal. Lebron had that luxury. He had proven Shaq who already had 3 finals mvp and a league mvp along with allstar game mvp the prior year.


Shaq was fat and broken down by the time he played with Lebron.

Yet Lebron still made him look good at times.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiNzgiW4GGM

[Shooter]

2009 LeBron

Playoffs
35/9/7/2/1 on 51%

ORtg: 128
DRtg: 100
PER: 37.4 (not a typo, literally highest PER ever through three rounds in playoff history)


Is this a fu**ing joke? :lol

[kawhileonard2]

Shaq was fat and broken down by the time he played with Lebron.

Yet Lebron still made him look good at times.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiNzgiW4GGM

What happened in pivotal game 5 while Lebron had HCA and higher seed? https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201005110CLE.html

[kawhileonard2]

2009 LeBron

Playoffs
35/9/7/2/1 on 51%

ORtg: 128
DRtg: 100
PER: 37.4 (not a typo, literally highest PER ever through three rounds in playoff history)


Is this a fu**ing joke? :lol

No not really. Lost with HCA to a career loser http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?471453-How-did-Lebron-James-lose-to-a-Career-Loser-in-Dwight-Howard-with-HCA-while-having-a/page17

[coastalmarker99]

What happened in pivotal game 5 while Lebron had HCA and higher seed? https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201005110CLE.html


Lebron didn't show up and they got blown out by over 30 points.


Honestly rewatch that 2010 series.


Lebron locked down Pierce to 13 PPG on 34% shooting and was doing all he could offensively outside of game 5.



But all the other Celtic players just killed their Cavs counterparts.


Rondo owned Mo who disappeared entirely in that series

Kg owned Jamison.

Ray owned Anthony Parker

[kawhileonard2]

Lebron didn't show up and they got blown out by over 30 points.


Honestly rewatch that 2010 series.


Lebron locked down Pierce to 13 PPG on 34% shooting and was doing all he could offensively outside of game 5.



But all the other Celtic players just killed their Cavs counter parts.

I have the series. Pierce destroyed Lebron in that series. Shaq dominated.

[coastalmarker99]

I have the series. Pierce destroyed Lebron in that series. Shaq dominated.


LMAO, you are retarded if you believe that.

As Lebron averaged 26.8 PPG and 9.3 RG to go along with 7.2 APG and 2.2 STL plus 1.3 BLK in that series.

To Pierce's 13.5 PPG and 4.7 RPG to go along with 3.7 APG and 1.2 STL



Wow, Pierce must have been really dominating Lebron with his god awful 13.5 PPG on 34% shooting while providing nothing of note in the other areas of the game.

[1987_Lakers]

LMAO, you are retarded if you believe that.

As Lebron averaged 26.8 PPG and 9.3 RG to go along with 7.2 APG and 2.2 STL plus 1.3 BLK in that series.

To Pierce's 13.5 PPG and 4.7 RPG to go along with 3.7 APG and 1.2 STL



Wow, Pierce must have been really dominating Lebron with his god awful 13.5 PPG on 34% shooting while providing nothing of note in the other areas of the game.

Dude you are responding to a troll, he recently got banned for spamming anti-LeBron posts on here.

Just ignore him, how everyone ignores him on realgm.

[RRR3]

Dude you are responding to a troll, he recently got banned for spamming anti-LeBron posts on here.

Just ignore him, how everyone ignores him on realgm.
He doesn't post like this on his reaglgm "JordansBulls" account, he's on his best behavior over there :roll:

Sniveling little coward :yaohappy:

[kawhileonard2]

LMAO, you are retarded if you believe that.

As Lebron averaged 26.8 PPG and 9.3 RG to go along with 7.2 APG and 2.2 STL plus 1.3 BLK in that series.

To Pierce's 13.5 PPG and 4.7 RPG to go along with 3.7 APG and 1.2 STL



Wow, Pierce must have been really dominating Lebron with his god awful 13.5 PPG on 34% shooting while providing nothing of note in the other areas of the game.

Lebron lost with HCA with prime Shaq.

[kawhileonard2]

Dude you are responding to a troll, he recently got banned for spamming anti-LeBron posts on here.

Just ignore him, how everyone ignores him on realgm.

What is realgm? Are we promoting another site here?

[RRR3]

Poor lil guy, almost no one reads his posts, look at him raging not knowing I have him on ignore :roll:

[1987_Lakers]

He doesn't post like this on his reaglgm "JordansBulls" account, he's on his best behavior over there :roll:

Sniveling little coward :yaohappy:

:lol

[HoopsNY]

Well yea lebrons team is much worse. It’s crazy how that’s just being glossed over in this thread. 09 lebron is one of the best years of his career and it’s not a debate peak lebron>peak kobe even on here. It’s not a strong argument but the west-east record was close that year so you could argue the conferences were close. The west had more quality playoff teams but the East had the 3 best teams after the lakers and the west had a few awful teams.

Winning FMVP can close a regular season gap but it’s not always enough. Unless curry does something really special, Giannis is still bitw right now.

Worse yea, much worse? I'm not so sure. I think the presumption is that if you swap Pau and Ilgauskas that it automatically turns LeBron into a finals winner. And while there is good reason to think that, the opposite can also be true since Pau would have likely become a spot up shooter. I'm not so sure he would have had the same level of effectiveness playing alongside LeBron and without the triangle as he did with Kobe and the triangle.

[Rysio]

LeBron was better as a ball dominator which never leads to a championship vs non chokers kobe knew how to play the right way and if not for celtics forming a super team he would have had another 3peat.

[FKAri]

Kobe in 08. 09 is where it starts getting tricky and Wade is in the mix too. '10 Lebron.
Overall Kobe slightly and in most scenarios.

[LeGoat4Life]

Kobe universially recognized by the fan base as the better player

Lebron finally became a better player after Kobe retired

[Shooter]

If 2009 Kobe and 2009 LeBron switched rosters

Kobe
Mo Williams
Big Z
Delonte West
Anderson Varejao
Boobie Gibson

vs.

LeBron James
Pau Gasol
Lamar Odom
Trevor Ariza
Andrew Bynum
Derrick Fisher

Is this a fu**ing joke? :lol

Kobe wouldn't even make the playoffs.

[ImKobe]

If 2009 Kobe and 2009 LeBron switched rosters

Kobe
Mo Williams
Big Z
Delonte West
Anderson Varejao
Boobie Gibson

vs.

LeBron James
Pau Gasol
Lamar Odom
Trevor Ariza
Andrew Bynum
Derrick Fisher

Is this a fu**ing joke? :lol

Kobe wouldn't even make the playoffs.

Kobe had the '08 Lakers contending for the #1 seed pre-Gasol with Walton, Radmanovic Kwame Brown and Ronny Turiaf starting games lmao.

Kobe is a much better fit with the Cavs bigs. You didn't even list Ben Wallace or JJ Hickson. So Kobe would essentially be on another team with a deep front court and with a co-star, and you think he wouldn't have any success with it? Are you crazy?

[ShawkFactory]

Kobe had the '08 Lakers contending for the #1 seed pre-Gasol with Walton, Radmanovic Kwame Brown and Ronny Turiaf starting games lmao.

Kobe is a much better fit with the Cavs bigs. You didn't even list Ben Wallace or JJ Hickson. So Kobe would essentially be on another team with a deep front court and with a co-star, and you think he wouldn't have any success with it? Are you crazy?

You're responding to a troll...of course there'd be some success. More success than Lebron had? That part is debatable.

[WhiteKyrie]

HGH head Wade had one good year.

What? In 07 he was the best player in the league before he threw out his shoulder. 28/8/8 numbers. I got Kobe for 2006, 2007 (post Wade injury), 2008, and arguments for Wade in 2009 but between Kobe and LeBron in 2009 and 2010 ultimately.

[ImKobe]

You're responding to a troll...of course there'd be some success. More success than Lebron had? That part is debatable.

Kobe would still have a great front court, good role players/shooters and a co-star that could share the load on offense. Cavs would still be in the same spot. The more interesting debate is if Lebron takes the '08 Lakers to the Finals with that same cast, as he didn't have the shooting ability that KB did, and the Spurs exposed that flaw in '07. Would he fit into a system where the ball isn't always in his hands? Would he trust D Fish or Lamar Odom or Gasol to make Plays for others?

Andy V, Ben Wallace and Big Z were really good, their stats might not jump off the screen as Cavs rotated their bigs as they had a lot of depth in the front court, but it's comparable to the front court help that KB had in LA, especially since Bynum always got hurt. It gets even better in 2010 with Shaq and with JJ Hickson becoming a bigger part of the rotation. KB fits right into that roster.

[ShawkFactory]

Kobe would still have a great front court, good role players/shooters and a co-star that could share the load on offense. Cavs would still be in the same spot. The more interesting debate is if Lebron takes the '08 Lakers to the Finals with that same cast, as he didn't have the shooting ability that KB did, and the Spurs exposed that flaw in '07. Would he fit into a system where the ball isn't always in his hands? Would he trust D Fish or Lamar Odom or Gasol to make Plays for others?

Andy V, Ben Wallace and Big Z were really good, their stats might not jump off the screen as Cavs rotated their bigs as they had a lot of depth in the front court, but it's comparable to the front court help that KB had in LA, especially since Bynum always got hurt. It gets even better in 2010 with Shaq and with JJ Hickson becoming a bigger part of the rotation. KB fits right into that roster.

Meh, young Lebron had the ability to bring it on the both ends of the court nonstop all year and he could wear teams down athletically. I don't think there's any way the Cavs are a 66 win team in 2009 with Kobe. I'd give them as good or maybe even slightly higher odds of getting past Orlando in the playoffs though.

You're overrating the Cavs frontcourt. Wallace and Big Z were well past their primes, and Varejao was a nice hustle guy but ultimately a guy that most teams have. They weren't asked to do that much individually as you noted but with Kobe the team gets smaller and maybe they can't handle the increased responsibility. Gasol, Odom, and Bynum were all better players offensively and could be go-to guys in spurts if needed. None of the Cavs frontcourt had that ability.

[Shooter]

You're responding to a troll...of course there'd be some success. More success than Lebron had? That part is debatable.

Not at all, but you certainly are with ImKobe...

[ImKobe]

Meh, young Lebron had the ability to bring it on the both ends of the court nonstop all year and he could wear teams down athletically. I don't think there's any way the Cavs are a 66 win team in 2009 with Kobe. I'd give them as good or maybe even slightly higher odds of getting past Orlando in the playoffs though.

You're overrating the Cavs frontcourt. Wallace and Big Z were well past their primes, and Varejao was a nice hustle guy but ultimately a guy that most teams have. They weren't asked to do that much individually as you noted but with Kobe the team gets smaller and maybe they can't handle the increased responsibility. Gasol, Odom, and Bynum were all better players offensively and could be go-to guys in spurts if needed. None of the Cavs frontcourt had that ability.


Cavs had plenty of talent, the FO didn't make the right moves to give Bran the best chance to win, but the help was there and they had options to improve their roster with a trade. Andy V made an All-Defensive team in 2010 and went on to become a starter in the '09 season with 10/9 1 stl 1 blk averages in that role and was amazing in limited minutes off the bench, JJ Hickson was a massive trade asset for them at the time and they refused to move him and Big Z for prime Amare in 2010. The talent was there, but it might not have been the best fit for Bran, Kobe's a better fit with the bigs they have IMO.

Bynum always got hurt so he wasn't very reliable come Playoff time. I'd rather have Varejao & Hickson over him in '09 and '10, I'd take Shaq over him as well.

[WhiteKyrie]

If 2009 Kobe and 2009 LeBron switched rosters

Kobe
Mo Williams
Big Z
Delonte West
Anderson Varejao
Boobie Gibson

vs.

LeBron James
Pau Gasol
Lamar Odom
Trevor Ariza
Andrew Bynum
Derrick Fisher

Is this a fu**ing joke? :lol

Kobe wouldn't even make the playoffs.
In that joke of an east? Or Leastern Conference? Easily. Ben Gordon and Luol Deng beat the defending champ Heat in 2007.

[ShawkFactory]

Cavs had plenty of talent, the FO didn't make the right moves to give Bran the best chance to win, but the help was there and they had options to improve their roster with a trade. Andy V made an All-Defensive team in 2010 and went on to become a starter in the '09 season with 10/9 1 stl 1 blk averages in that role and was amazing in limited minutes off the bench, JJ Hickson was a massive trade asset for them at the time and they refused to move him and Big Z for prime Amare in 2010. The talent was there, but it might not have been the best fit for Bran, Kobe's a better fit with the bigs they have IMO.

Bynum always got hurt so he wasn't very reliable come Playoff time. I'd rather have Varejao & Hickson over him in '09 and '10, I'd take Shaq over him as well.

Are you just fvcking with me? :lol

Hickson played 7 minutes a game in the playoffs for the Cavs. I swear to god some people just hear a name and argue that they were good because they know about them. Never thought I'd see the day where JJ fvcking Hickson was used in one of these arguments. FFS..

[SouBeachTalents]

Meh, young Lebron had the ability to bring it on the both ends of the court nonstop all year and he could wear teams down athletically. I don't think there's any way the Cavs are a 66 win team in 2009 with Kobe. I'd give them as good or maybe even slightly higher odds of getting past Orlando in the playoffs though.

You're overrating the Cavs frontcourt. Wallace and Big Z were well past their primes, and Varejao was a nice hustle guy but ultimately a guy that most teams have. They weren't asked to do that much individually as you noted but with Kobe the team gets smaller and maybe they can't handle the increased responsibility. Gasol, Odom, and Bynum were all better players offensively and could be go-to guys in spurts if needed. None of the Cavs frontcourt had that ability.
What do you think Kobe does differently that would result in the Cavs having a better chance of beating Orlando?

[Shooter]

Anyone? Or is it done now :lol'

If 2009 Kobe and 2009 LeBron switched rosters it would look like this:

Kobe
Mo Williams
Big Z
Delonte West
Anderson Varejao
Boobie Gibson

vs.

LeBron James
Pau Gasol
Lamar Odom
Trevor Ariza
Andrew Bynum
Derrick Fisher

Is this a fu**ing joke? :lol

Kobe wouldn't even make the playoffs.

[ShawkFactory]

What do you think Kobe does differently that would result in the Cavs having a better chance of beating Orlando?

I think at that time he was slightly more trustworthy in huge possessions.

[Shooter]

I think at that time he was slightly more trustworthy in huge possessions.

Ok now I have to ask...are YOU the troll? :lol This is why you think swapping rosters between Kobe and LeBron would lead to Kobe having more success?

Kobe's 4th option is probably better than LeBron's second option in 2009

I'd take Ariza over Mo Williams for his defense.

[SouBeachTalents]

I think at that time he was slightly more trustworthy in huge possessions.
I know there’s that graphic where Kobe shot terribly in the 4th quarter in the ‘09 Finals, while LeBron hit the famous GW and actually made 2 FT’s in the final second to send Game 4 to OT. I’d be curious to see if anybody had the clutch stats from both players for those series, I’d like to see how the two of them compare.

[NBAGOAT]

Worse yea, much worse? I'm not so sure. I think the presumption is that if you swap Pau and Ilgauskas that it automatically turns LeBron into a finals winner. And while there is good reason to think that, the opposite can also be true since Pau would have likely become a spot up shooter. I'm not so sure he would have had the same level of effectiveness playing alongside LeBron and without the triangle as he did with Kobe and the triangle.

yes much worse. Not saying gasol automatically makes lebron a champion or he's as effective but he's much better than ilgauskas. Post guys have trouble with lebron when they're on teams with lebron and another elite ball handler and there's diminishing returns. Pau's not becoming just a spot up shooter on that cavs team, he's getting touches. even odom replacing varejo/jamision with his defense and versatility is likely the 2nd best player on the cavs.

I have access to epm from those years. Ik it's only one metric with flaws but kobe put up a 5.2 in 09 and 3.6 in 10 very good 98 percentile. Lebron averaged a +10 over those 2 years lol, basically unmatched the past decade besides maybe peak curry and harden in 19. He added 10 more wins than kobe and if you think about it that's not unreasonable. Kobe could lead the cavs to 50-55 wins and that would be seen as a pretty impressive carry job.

10 wins is a huge difference however and at least in 09, lebron did not play close to poorly enough in the playoffs for kobe to make up that gap. 10 is a different story but kobe's finals wasnt great and he had a down regular season. There's a reason the focus has been on 2009.

[ImKobe]

Are you just fvcking with me? :lol

Hickson played 7 minutes a game in the playoffs for the Cavs. I swear to god some people just hear a name and argue that they were good because they know about them. Never thought I'd see the day where JJ fvcking Hickson was used in one of these arguments. FFS..

I'd take Hickson over an injured/hurt Bynum.

[ShawkFactory]

I'd take Hickson over an injured/hurt Bynum.

I mean guess you could take anyone healthy over someone injured. Even one who was injured in 2009 himself and played literally 7 minutes a game in the playoffs the next year.

You just lack consistency.

[TAZORAC]

Lebron.

Defensive beast and could elevate an entire offense by himself. He was a genuine monster by this point. This question is frankly an insult.

Kobe was a great player, but in many ways his game was more ‘impressive’ than ‘impactful.’ Evidence supports the fact his iso points werent even that necessary to the Lakers’ success. Many nights they were more of a hindrance than a help.

Not tryin to run down Kobe or anything but lets be honest here. Lebron was CLEARLY a tier above him in value.

Kobe Bryant was never the head and shoulders best player in the NBA, During his career it was Jordan, O'neal, Duncan, James. Never him

[red1]

that's actually going down as a golden era for the nba



3 players in their prime who'd be the hands down best if they were playing now in kobe wade and lebron

[RRR3]

yes much worse. Not saying gasol automatically makes lebron a champion or he's as effective but he's much better than ilgauskas. Post guys have trouble with lebron when they're on teams with lebron and another elite ball handler and there's diminishing returns. Pau's not becoming just a spot up shooter on that cavs team, he's getting touches. even odom replacing varejo/jamision with his defense and versatility is likely the 2nd best player on the cavs.

I have access to epm from those years. Ik it's only one metric with flaws but kobe put up a 5.2 in 09 and 3.6 in 10 very good 98 percentile. Lebron averaged a +10 over those 2 years lol, basically unmatched the past decade besides maybe peak curry and harden in 19. He added 10 more wins than kobe and if you think about it that's not unreasonable. Kobe could lead the cavs to 50-55 wins and that would be seen as a pretty impressive carry job.

10 wins is a huge difference however and at least in 09, lebron did not play close to poorly enough in the playoffs for kobe to make up that gap. 10 is a different story but kobe's finals wasnt great and he had a down regular season. There's a reason the focus has been on 2009.
Ether.

[8Ball]

Everytime someone makes a thread to troll LeBron using Kobe as their dynamite, it fails spectacularly.

LeBron surpassed Kobe all time back in 2012. That's 10 years ago.

[WhiteKyrie]

Kobe Bryant was never the head and shoulders best player in the NBA, During his career it was Jordan, O'neal, Duncan, James. Never him
Disagree with Duncan if you’re using the same criterium for Kobe. And Bryant was the best in the league from 2006 - 2008 or 2009 ish.

[plowking]

that's actually going down as a golden era for the nba



3 players in their prime who'd be the hands down best if they were playing now in kobe wade and lebron

I'm gonna disagree... Not a popular opinion, but the current crop of Giannis, Curry, Jokic, Durant and Bron still being around to me is better than that period.

[WhiteKyrie]

I'm gonna disagree... Not a popular opinion, but the current crop of Giannis, Curry, Jokic, Durant and Bron still being around to me is better than that period.
Bigger fan than of LeBron, Kobe, Wade, CP3, Duncan, Melo, Durant, Dirk, KG, Pierce during that 2006 - 2014 era?

[red1]

I'm gonna disagree... Not a popular opinion, but the current crop of Giannis, Curry, Jokic, Durant and Bron still being around to me is better than that period.

that top 3 makes up the difference because they would absolutely shit on the league right now


devin booker is the best shooting guard in the league right now and he's 5 tiers under wade and kobe

[dankok8]

This was a big debate back then. In 2008 Kobe was better. In 2009 and 2010 I'd probably give it to Lebron but Lebron quitting against Boston in 2010 gives me some pause and the 2011 debacle can't be forgotten either because it speaks about his mental fortitude. I think in terms of intangibles, it's hard to argue Kobe wasn't clearly ahead of Lebron in these years so that narrows the statistical gap.

[kawhileonard2]

Kobe as he won league mvp and a few mvp's and Lebron lost with HCA twice.

[WhiteKyrie]

HGH head Wade had one good year.

One good year? He was injured in 2008. Played only 50 games. He dealt with terrible knee and shoulder injuries. Surgeries, etc

2009 - 30 ppg 5 rpg 8 apg 2 spg 1 bpg

very easily couldn’t been MVP

2010 - 27 ppg 5 rpg 7 apg 2 spg 1 bpg

This is the guy LeBron needed to run to and join his franchise in order to attempt to win not 5, not 6, not 7 … as easily as possible.

Before he injured himself in 2007, he was the best player in the league, easily. Putting up 28/8/8. Carrying a Shaq less Heat squad.

2006 dragged the carcass of Shaq, GP, J-Will and Zo to a title as Finals MVP and the best player on the team. 27/6/7 and won a ring as definitively his team’s best player before LeBron or Kobe for that matter.

Him and Kobe were the best players on the 2008 USA redeem team as well.

As for the topic at hand

2004 - Kobe
2005 - Kobe
2006 - Kobe
2007 - Kobe

2008 - Kobe
2009 - Tie
2010 - LeBron

That’s mental fortitude issues aside, that caused LeBron to quit on his team in the 2010 ECSF and basically do the same the very next year in the 2011 Finals.

2011 - LeBron
2012 - LeBron
2013 - LeBron

And I think all of the above is an honest, non bias breakdown.

2014 - 2016 isn’t even worth comparing by that point. For obvious reasons. Kobe was never the same after blowing his Achilles out at 34 in the 2013 season.

[SATAN]

That’s mental fortitude issues aside, that caused LeBron to quit on his team in the 2010 ECSF and basically do the same the very next year in the 2011 Finals.

2011 - LeBron
2012 - LeBron
2013 - LeBron

And I think all of the above is an honest, non bias breakdown.



We should all apply the same kind of criticism to MJ quitting on his team multiple times.

[MadDogg]

One good year? He was injured in 2008. Played only 50 games. He dealt with terrible knee and shoulder injuries. Surgeries, etc

2009 - 30 ppg 5 rpg 8 apg 2 spg 1 bpg

very easily couldn’t been MVP

2010 - 27 ppg 5 rpg 7 apg 2 spg 1 bpg

This is the guy LeBron needed to run to and join his franchise in order to attempt to win not 5, not 6, not 7 … as easily as possible.

Before he injured himself in 2007, he was the best player in the league, easily. Putting up 28/8/8. Carrying a Shaq less Heat squad.

2006 dragged the carcass of Shaq, GP, J-Will and Zo to a title as Finals MVP and the best player on the team. 27/6/7 and won a ring as definitively his team’s best player before LeBron or Kobe for that matter.

Him and Kobe were the best players on the 2008 USA redeem team as well.

As for the topic at hand

2004 - Kobe
2005 - Kobe
2006 - Kobe
2007 - Kobe

2008 - Kobe
2009 - Tie
2010 - LeBron

That’s mental fortitude issues aside, that caused LeBron to quit on his team in the 2010 ECSF and basically do the same the very next year in the 2011 Finals.

2011 - LeBron
2012 - LeBron
2013 - LeBron

And I think all of the above is an honest, non bias breakdown.

2014 - 2016 isn’t even worth comparing by that point. For obvious reasons. Kobe was never the same after blowing his Achilles out at 34 in the 2013 season.

2009 & 2010 are closer than LeBron fanboys think. Kobe didn't need to turn up in the regular-season. Los Angeles had already made the finals a season prior (08), so he conserved energy for the postseason. His team also ran a better offense and went through Pau quite a bit. In the 09 & 10 playoffs, Kobe averaged 30/6/6 on 57% TS and led the league in RAPM.

The man was a model of consistency those years, and its no wonder many still viewed him as the best.

[WhiteKyrie]

2009 & 2010 are closer than LeBron fanboys think. Kobe didn't need to turn up in the regular-season. Los Angeles had already made the finals a season prior (08), so he conserved energy for the postseason. His team also ran a better offense and went through Pau quite a bit. In the 09 & 10 playoffs, Kobe averaged 30/6/6 on 57% TS and led the league in RAPM.

The man was a model of consistency those years, and its no wonder many still viewed him as the best.

I’m in full agreement, I gave Kobe 2008, even though technically LeBron had better numbers, he was not the better player.

Same way I didn’t think Giannis was better than LeBron in 2020.

2009 I feel could go either way. LeBron would’ve been in the finals if his team played any defense on the Magic, yes LeBron was complicit in that, but his next best player totally no showed that series, where we would’ve got the epic Kobe just coming out of his peak/prime versus coming into his prime/peak LeBron in the Finals. As Nike was banking on as well.

2010, LeBron was definitely the better player in the regular season and post season open till the second round. Kobe got his knee drained to end the first round against Oklahoma, and magically started looking like the player he was the previous year. And then he had that monster Western Conference finals against a really, really good Phoenix Suns team. Which, was the best playoff series between either one of the players that year. And he had a decent series versus the Celtics. LeBron was having an amazing series against that Celtics team until he oddly quit mid series in a winnable series.

So my honest opinion is 2009 you could go either way, shame they couldn’t settle it in the Finals and in 2010, given how the season ended up and where it went, it was Kobe. But in the regular season, it was LeBron. Kobe had that long stretch run in the season of hitting game winners and willing his team to victory even with broken shooting fingers, etc. He started having knee issues from all the wear and tear in deep playoff runs he had plus Olympics over the past three years prior … and he was five years older than LeBron.

It definitely was a conversation, it wasn’t so clear cut and dry, no matter what a Kobe Stan says, or a Lebron Stan says. Kobe in 2008. Tie in 2009. LeBron in 2010. Fair.

[HoopsNY]

I don't remember anyone having a clear seat on the throne at that time. I remember Wade, Kobe, and LeBron's names being brought up a lot. I think it's more of an evolution of sorts. 2008 it was Kobe, 2009 it was neck and neck, and 2010 it was LeBron.

Wade had the unfortunate injuries which put him in the backseat, but I could see why someone would choose him back then. Wade's playoff numbers from then?

Wade PS '09-'10: 31/5/6/1/2 on 57% TS% (49% FG%)

I always felt that Wade didn't get the credit he deserved defensively where at the time, he was arguably as good, if not a better defender, than Kobe.

Wade was lights out. In those playoffs, he shot 38% from the 3 on more than 7 attempts a game.

[WhiteKyrie]

Wade performed better against the 2010 playoff Celtics defense than LeBron or Kobe did.

Because he wasn’t jump shot happy like Kobe.

And was much quicker off the bounce and less reliant on picks than LeBron.

Also goes to show you why the GOAT, Jordan, basically a combo of the best of Wade and Kobe would torch that team. Or anyone really.