Lowest peak capability in playoffs of any sidekick + biggest gap below 1st option =

[3ba11]

most carried sidekick ever, aka Pippen...:confusedshrug:

Pippen's peak as sidekick was 21.6 for a playoff run and 23 for a series outside the 1st Round, while he averaged 10-30 less than MJ in every series except 2 (4 and 8 ppg less).. Pippen is the only sidekick that never achieved elite ppg, rpg or apg in any series and had by far the worst efficiency of any sidekick (https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg).

^^^ that's the lowest peak capability in the playoffs and the biggest gap between a sidekick and 1st option, aka most carried sidekick ever.

Everyone in history needed teammates to match or lead in scoring for entire playoff runs, while Jordan led Pippen by 10-30 in every SERIES.. So there's no comparison to Jordan's dominance.. Only Jordan defeated maximum defensive attention in every series (carried scoring load in every series)..

People knock Curry for having an equal-scoring partner in KD to attract equal defensive attention, but every star had this except Jordan.. Only Jordan lacked a go-to teammate.

[AlternativeAcc.]

He was the best defender of all time, the best playmaker on the Bulls, and he outscored the opponents 2nd option in 5 of 6 finals.


Best 'sidekick' ever and arguably top 10 all time.

[RRR3]

OP posts from a retirement home.

[Phoenix]

The 3ball GmSc conundrum

1990
vs Bucks Pippen 22.4 Ricky Pierce 15.7
vs Sixers Pippen 17.8 Hersey Hawkins 13.2
vs Pistons Pippen 12.2 Isiah Thomas 16.2

1991
vs Knicks Pippen 17.7 Kiki Vandeweghe 8.0
vs Sixers Pippen 20.8 Hersey Hawkins 16.9
vs Pistons Pippen 20.2 Aquirre 9.4 Vinnie 17.0 Dumars 7.1 Isiah 11.4 ( take your pick)
vs Lakers Pippen 17.5 Divac 16.1 Worthy 11.0 (take your pick)

1992
vs Heat Pippen 24.5 Steve Smith 15.1 ( First option Rony Seikaly 15.9)
vs Knicks Pippen 14.9 Xavier Mcdaniel 12.2
vs Cavs Pippen 17.4 Nance 16.1 Price 12.8 Daugherty 15.7 ( take your pick)
vs Blazers Pippen 18.1 Porter 12.5 ( fun fact: Drexler 18.4)

1993
vs Hawks Pippen 10.3 Kevin Willis 9.8
vs Cavs Pippen 15.2 Daughtery 13.6 (Nance 15.3, Price 9.9)
vs Knicks Pippen 15.7 Starks 8.4
vs Suns Pippen 15.6 Majerle 17.0

1995
vs Hornets Pippen 14.8 Johnson 15.8
vs Magic Pippen 15.8 Hardaway 15.4 ( Horace Grant 17.3)

1996
vs Heat Pippen 22.7( MJ 22.3) Hardaway 9.3 Mourning 8.5
vs Knicks Pippen 13.0 Starks 8.1
vs Magic Pippen 16.6 Hardaway 15.6
vs Sonics Pippen 13.4 Payton 14.4

1997
vs Bullets Pippen 12.0 Howard 14.0
vs Hawks Pippen 16.4 Steve Smith 8.1 Blaylock 15.7 Laettner 9.4 ( take your pick)
vs Heat Pippen 10.8 Mourning 8.9
vs Jazz Pippen 15.1 Stockton 14.9

1998
vs Nets Pippen 16.2 Kittles 10.4 Van Horn 7.0 Douglas 14.5 ( take your pick)
vs Hornets Pippen 16.9 Divac 11.0 Mason 10.7 ( first option Rice 13.6)
vs Pacers Pippen 13.0 Smits 10.9 ( first option Reggie Miller 11.6)
vs Jazz Pippen 13.0 Stockton 10.0

Now with that out of the way, we now turn our attention to 95 finals Robert Horry Gmsc vs Bulls finals opponents first options

95 Horry 19.0
96 Kemp 18.9
98 Malone 18.5
92 Drexler 18.4
97 Malone 16.8

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRr9wshLHZGTLX6Yg84JMdMXL2ESbR9r hspQA&usqp=CAU
"3ball Agenda": 95 finals Robert Horry played at a higher level than Pippen ever did because of GmSc, Pippen is the worst 2nd option

"Unintended consequence": That would also mean that 95 finals Horry played better than most of the Bulls finals first option opponents

"3ball moonwalking": 95 finals Horry having better GmSc than most of Bulls first option opponents doesn't count because of small sample size

"5 year old's retort": Pippen's GmSc over the majority of opposing 2nd options during the 90's Bulls run should count because of large sample size doe

"Conclusion"
https://image.shutterstock.com/image-photo/between-rock-hard-place-260nw-24293326.jpg

[SouBeachTalents]

^ You can also add that his real favorite player Kobe has FIVE Finals with a gamescore worse than Horry :lol

[AlternativeAcc.]

The 3ball GmSc conundrum

1990
vs Bucks Pippen 22.4 Ricky Pierce 15.7
vs Sixers Pippen 17.8 Hersey Hawkins 13.2
vs Pistons Pippen 12.2 Isiah Thomas 16.2

1991
vs Knicks Pippen 17.7 Kiki Vandeweghe 8.0
vs Sixers Pippen 20.8 Hersey Hawkins 16.9
vs Pistons Pippen 20.2 Aquirre 9.4 Vinnie 17.0 Dumars 7.1 Isiah 11.4 ( take your pick)
vs Lakers Pippen 17.5 Divac 16.1 Worthy 11.0 (take your pick)

1992
vs Heat Pippen 24.5 Steve Smith 15.1 ( First option Rony Seikaly 15.9)
vs Knicks Pippen 14.9 Xavier Mcdaniel 12.2
vs Cavs Pippen 17.4 Nance 16.1 Price 12.8 Daugherty 15.7 ( take your pick)
vs Blazers Pippen 18.1 Porter 12.5 ( fun fact: Drexler 18.4)

1993
vs Hawks Pippen 10.3 Kevin Willis 9.8
vs Cavs Pippen 15.2 Daughtery 13.6 (Nance 15.3, Price 9.9)
vs Knicks Pippen 15.7 Starks 8.4
vs Suns Pippen 15.6 Majerle 17.0

1995
vs Hornets Pippen 14.8 Johnson 15.8
vs Magic Pippen 15.8 Hardaway 15.4 ( Horace Grant 17.3)

1996
vs Heat Pippen 22.7( MJ 22.3) Hardaway 9.3 Mourning 8.5
vs Knicks Pippen 13.0 Starks 8.1
vs Magic Pippen 16.6 Hardaway 15.6
vs Sonics Pippen 13.4 Payton 14.4

1997
vs Bullets Pippen 12.0 Howard 14.0
vs Hawks Pippen 16.4 Steve Smith 8.1 Blaylock 15.7 Laettner 9.4 ( take your pick)
vs Heat Pippen 10.8 Mourning 8.9
vs Jazz Pippen 15.1 Stockton 14.9

1998
vs Nets Pippen 16.2 Kittles 10.4 Van Horn 7.0 Douglas 14.5 ( take your pick)
vs Hornets Pippen 16.9 Divac 11.0 Mason 10.7 ( first option Rice 13.6)
vs Pacers Pippen 13.0 Smits 10.9 ( first option Reggie Miller 11.6)
vs Jazz Pippen 13.0 Stockton 10.0

Now with that out of the way, we now turn our attention to 95 finals Robert Horry Gmsc vs Bulls finals opponents first options

95 Horry 19.0
96 Kemp 18.9
98 Malone 18.5
92 Drexler 18.4
97 Malone 16.8

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRr9wshLHZGTLX6Yg84JMdMXL2ESbR9r hspQA&usqp=CAU
"3ball Agenda": 95 finals Robert Horry played at a higher level than Pippen ever did because of GmSc, Pippen is the worst 2nd option

"Unintended consequence": That would also mean that 95 finals Horry played better than most of the Bulls finals first option opponents

"3ball moonwalking": 95 finals Horry having better GmSc than most of Bulls first option opponents doesn't count because of small sample size

"5 year old's retort": Pippen's GmSc over the majority of opposing 2nd options during the 90's Bulls run should count because of large sample size doe

"Conclusion"
https://image.shutterstock.com/image-photo/between-rock-hard-place-260nw-24293326.jpg

3ball disappeared again


his hoodrat gf must've got arrested again for terrorizing the local dollar tree, surely he'll be back after bailing her out. surely...

[RRR3]

^ You can also add that his real favorite player Kobe has FIVE Finals with a gamescore worse than Horry :lol
:yaohappy:


Eeyikes

[AirBonner]

2016-2017 Celtics Isaiah Thomas averaged 29ppg while the next best player Avery Bradley averaged 16ppg. Isaiah Thomas scored 13ppg more than his 2nd option.

[8Ball]

The 3ball GmSc conundrum

1990
vs Bucks Pippen 22.4 Ricky Pierce 15.7
vs Sixers Pippen 17.8 Hersey Hawkins 13.2
vs Pistons Pippen 12.2 Isiah Thomas 16.2

1991
vs Knicks Pippen 17.7 Kiki Vandeweghe 8.0
vs Sixers Pippen 20.8 Hersey Hawkins 16.9
vs Pistons Pippen 20.2 Aquirre 9.4 Vinnie 17.0 Dumars 7.1 Isiah 11.4 ( take your pick)
vs Lakers Pippen 17.5 Divac 16.1 Worthy 11.0 (take your pick)

1992
vs Heat Pippen 24.5 Steve Smith 15.1 ( First option Rony Seikaly 15.9)
vs Knicks Pippen 14.9 Xavier Mcdaniel 12.2
vs Cavs Pippen 17.4 Nance 16.1 Price 12.8 Daugherty 15.7 ( take your pick)
vs Blazers Pippen 18.1 Porter 12.5 ( fun fact: Drexler 18.4)

1993
vs Hawks Pippen 10.3 Kevin Willis 9.8
vs Cavs Pippen 15.2 Daughtery 13.6 (Nance 15.3, Price 9.9)
vs Knicks Pippen 15.7 Starks 8.4
vs Suns Pippen 15.6 Majerle 17.0

1995
vs Hornets Pippen 14.8 Johnson 15.8
vs Magic Pippen 15.8 Hardaway 15.4 ( Horace Grant 17.3)

1996
vs Heat Pippen 22.7( MJ 22.3) Hardaway 9.3 Mourning 8.5
vs Knicks Pippen 13.0 Starks 8.1
vs Magic Pippen 16.6 Hardaway 15.6
vs Sonics Pippen 13.4 Payton 14.4

1997
vs Bullets Pippen 12.0 Howard 14.0
vs Hawks Pippen 16.4 Steve Smith 8.1 Blaylock 15.7 Laettner 9.4 ( take your pick)
vs Heat Pippen 10.8 Mourning 8.9
vs Jazz Pippen 15.1 Stockton 14.9

1998
vs Nets Pippen 16.2 Kittles 10.4 Van Horn 7.0 Douglas 14.5 ( take your pick)
vs Hornets Pippen 16.9 Divac 11.0 Mason 10.7 ( first option Rice 13.6)
vs Pacers Pippen 13.0 Smits 10.9 ( first option Reggie Miller 11.6)
vs Jazz Pippen 13.0 Stockton 10.0

Now with that out of the way, we now turn our attention to 95 finals Robert Horry Gmsc vs Bulls finals opponents first options

95 Horry 19.0
96 Kemp 18.9
98 Malone 18.5
92 Drexler 18.4
97 Malone 16.8

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRr9wshLHZGTLX6Yg84JMdMXL2ESbR9r hspQA&usqp=CAU
"3ball Agenda": 95 finals Robert Horry played at a higher level than Pippen ever did because of GmSc, Pippen is the worst 2nd option

"Unintended consequence": That would also mean that 95 finals Horry played better than most of the Bulls finals first option opponents

"3ball moonwalking": 95 finals Horry having better GmSc than most of Bulls first option opponents doesn't count because of small sample size

"5 year old's retort": Pippen's GmSc over the majority of opposing 2nd options during the 90's Bulls run should count because of large sample size doe

"Conclusion"
https://image.shutterstock.com/image-photo/between-rock-hard-place-260nw-24293326.jpg

Jordan stans are the biggest whipping boys of this forum.

[3ba11]

I responded to the gamescore garbage already. He's wrong.. He's looking at one-off's, not a sample size

Drexler and Kemp getting lower gamescore in the Finals than Horry is a one-off - Pippen is the only guy that did it over a meaningful sample size (6/6), so he's the only guy that's definitively below peak-Horry capability

And it isn't a surprise that 4 of 6 Finals showed the opposing 1st option getting shut down (lower gamescore than Horry) because MJ led the goat defensive team - he's a goat defender that elevated teams like Russell or Hakeem, including the most top 7 DPOY finishes for a perimeter player (88-98').

Finally, Pippen was the only sidekick that wasn't a go-to player and was more of an transition player/system player - he was lucky to latch onto dynasty chemistry, which carried him - he was nothing outside the triangle or dynasty chemistry. And his gamescore is based on hustle stats and not the critical scoring/efficiency/clutch combination, where Pippen is the worst-ever of any sidekick.

[AlternativeAcc.]

I responded to the gamescore garbage already. He's wrong.. He's looking at one-off's, not a sample size

Drexler and Kemp getting lower gamescore in the Finals than Horry is a one-off - Pippen is the only guy that did it over a meaningful sample size (6/6), so only he is definitively below peak-Horry capability

And it isn't a surprise that 4 of 6 Finals showed the opposing 1st option getting shut down (lower gamescore than Horry) because MJ led the goat defensive team - he's a goat defender that elevated teams like Russell or Hakeem, including the most top 7 DPOY finishes for a perimeter player.

Finally, Pippen was the only sidekick that wasn't a go-to player and was more of an transition player/system player - he was lucky to llatch onto dynasty chemistry, which carried him - he was nothing outside the triangle.. And his gamescore is based on hustle stats and not the critical scoring/efficiency/clutch combination, where Pippen is the worst-ever of any sidekick.

Why did he outscore other teams 2nd option in finals almost every time? He's the best defender ever and bulls best playmaker, so him outscoring other teams 2nd options seems like overkill

Sounds like Jordan has absurd help and luck

[SouBeachTalents]

Why did he outscore other teams 2nd option in finals almost every time? He's the best defender ever and bulls best playmaker, so him outscoring other teams 2nd options seems like overkill

Sounds like Jordan has absurd help and luck
Nah, look at how the team fell apart after MJ abruptly retired a month before the ‘94 season.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Nah, look at how the team fell apart after MJ abruptly retired a month before the ‘94 season.

They only won 55 games instead of 57 the year prior

That's a point I can't argue with

[Phoenix]

I responded to the gamescore garbage already. He's wrong.. He's looking at one-off's, not a sample size

Drexler and Kemp getting lower gamescore in the Finals than Horry is a one-off - Pippen is the only guy that did it over a meaningful sample size (6/6), so he's the only guy that's definitively below peak-Horry capability

And it isn't a surprise that 4 of 6 Finals showed the opposing 1st option getting shut down (lower gamescore than Horry) because MJ led the goat defensive team - he's a goat defender that elevated teams like Russell or Hakeem, including the most top 7 DPOY finishes for a perimeter player (88-98').

Finally, Pippen was the only sidekick that wasn't a go-to player and was more of an transition player/system player - he was lucky to latch onto dynasty chemistry, which carried him - he was nothing outside the triangle or dynasty chemistry. And his gamescore is based on hustle stats and not the critical scoring/efficiency/clutch combination, where Pippen is the worst-ever of any sidekick.

And I already responded to that bullshit:

You can wiggle around it till your little hearts content. The fact that Horry exceeded Drexler's GmSC at all IS THE POINT dumbass ( actually the point is using GmSc in the way you are is dumb period) but since you now wish to bring up that GmSc benefits 'hustlers and defenders' like Pippen...... Horry in that mythical 95 finals series scored 18ppg on 43% shooting. That's the kind of scoring you give Pippen shit for, meaning that Horry's high GmSc number for the series was mostly attributed to 'hustle' stats( he averaged 10 rebounds, 3 steals, 2 blocks in the 95 finals) and not elite scoring volume or efficiency. So just as you handwave Scottie's higher GmSc because of 'hustle and defense' stats, we can also do the same for Horry's 95 finals GmSc. Thanks for playing.

Also, why would Karl Malone's production be impacted by Jordan's defense? Is there some alternate reality you exist where he was the primary defender on Mailman? Was Kemp being defended by Jordan in your reality, instead of Rodman( and Kemp's GmSc edged higher than MJs that finals and not on account of 'hustle and defense' stats either)..

Whoops, hung yourself by your own arguments again. :oldlol:

The 'Pippen GmSc was helped by hustle and defense' also applied to 95 Horry, because he scored 18ppg on 43% which you give Pippen shit for. His high GmSc that series was because of defensive stats ( 10rpg, 3spg,2bpg). And as an extra slice of fukk you and your bullshit, no extra charge, SBT says Kobe had 5 GmSc lower than 95 Horry. So if Horry has 5 GmSc higher than Kobe, the same logic applies that you're using for Pippen. Sample size not working out so well now?

Your GmSc argument is full of holes, and you lose......again.

[3ba11]

:facepalm:

[3ba11]

Why did he outscore other teams 2nd option in finals almost every time? He's the best defender ever and bulls best playmaker, so him outscoring other teams 2nd options seems like overkill

Sounds like Jordan has absurd help and luck


The Jazz needed their sidekick to be a goat playmaker and jordan-level scoring in the clutch:



97' PLAYOFFS CLUTCH SCORING (last 5 within 5)

https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-20-2022/ZNXS7G.gif


97' FINALS CLUTCH SCORING (last 5 within 5)

https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-20-2022/j3_9OV.gif


Pippen can't do that.. :confusedshrug:
Pippen was a scrub and outscored by guys like Longley, Ostertag or Hornacek in the clutch


Drivers of winning for sidekicks include efficiency, clutch and defensive attention (not being a system or transition player - actually being in the scouting report (https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2022/qrDm8n.gif))

So while Pippen outscored Majerle and Dumas by a couple points in the 93' Finals, he shot 45% true shooting compared to their 60 .. Pippen had a poor man's "Pandemic P" performance, which forced MJ to average 41/9/6 (and Majerle had higher gamescore)..

And it wasn't just the 93' Finals - those playoffs showed Pippen getting the lowest-ever advanced stats of any winning sidekick (PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48, TS).

In addition to his garbage 93' season and playoffs, he wet the bed in the 96-98' Playoffs with additional "Pandemic P" performance - the poor man's variety (17 on 41% for entire 96-98' Playoffs.or Finals).. Stockton, Kemp, and Payton matched or exceeded his Finals gamescore and were actual offensive threats (aka they had higher peak capability, while Pippen had low peak that didn't require game-planning)..

[Phoenix]

:facepalm:

Yes, we all do that at your posts.

[Shooter]

He was the best defender of all time, the best playmaker on the Bulls, and he outscored the opponents 2nd option in 5 of 6 finals.


Best 'sidekick' ever and arguably top 10 all time.

STOP.

DROP.

SHUTTEM DOWN

:hammertime:

OPEN UP SHOP

:lebronamazed:

[AirBonner]

2016-2017 Celtics Isaiah Thomas averaged 29ppg while the next best player Avery Bradley averaged 16ppg. Isaiah Thomas scored 13ppg more than his 2nd option.

Yikes even MJ couldn’t field a 50 win team without his Pippen. Thomas did the equivalent

[AussieSteve]

Not sure about the lowest, but this guy on the Bulls in the 90s had three straight years of 1st team All NBA and 1st team All D, with 2x top 5 MVP finishes.

Thats gotta rank among the highest peaks for a sidekick.

[3ba11]

Not sure about the lowest, but this guy on the Bulls in the 90s had three straight years of 1st team All NBA and 1st team All D, with 2x top 5 MVP finishes.

Thats gotta rank among the highest peaks for a sidekick.


Draymond was DPOY but no one said that was a goat sidekick peak

Defensive awards mean nothing when we're talking peaks and they only enter the conversation to support someone's weak offense, which is the issue with Pippen - he was a taller Westbrick with half the production across the board (Westbrook was 32/10/10 and Pippen is closer to 17/5/5)

And media awards aren't a "peak"... PLAYOFF PERFORMANCE is what measures peak, and Pippen never played at the typical elite 1st option level that everyone likes to see, while every other 1st option did.. Every other 1st option was infact a 1b with numerous dominant series that led their team, while Pippen was always a secondary producer and transition/hustle player - he was NEVER a go-to player and simply lived off dynasty system chemistry (literally NOTHING without the triangle).. He's the only sidekick that never achieved elite ppg, rpg or apg in any series.

[NBAGOAT]

Draymond was DPOY but no one said that was a goat sidekick peak

Defensive awards mean nothing when we're talking peaks and they only enter the conversation to support someone's weak offense, which is the issue with Pippen - he was a taller Westbrick with half the production across the board (Westbrook was 32/10/10 and Pippen is closer to 17/5/5)

And media awards aren't a "peak"... PLAYOFF PERFORMANCE is what measures peak, and Pippen never played at the typical elite 1st option level that everyone likes to see, while every other 1st option did.. Every other 1st option was infact a 1b with numerous dominant series that led their team, while Pippen was always a secondary producer and transition/hustle player - he was NEVER a go-to player and simply lived off dynasty system chemistry (literally NOTHING without the triangle).. He's the only sidekick that never achieved elite ppg, rpg or apg in any series.

if people dont think dray was elite in 2016 or had an all time year for a sidekick, then they're underrating him. He's a clear top 10 player that year, maybe top 10 a few others too(17,15). He also coasts during the regular season so his impact shines in the playoffs. Ben Taylor said from 15-19, gs' playoff offense wasnt that remarkable, it was their playoff defense that was historically great. so much of that credit goes to draymond.

[3ba11]

if people dont think dray was elite in 2016 or had an all time year for a sidekick, then they're underrating him. He's a clear top 10 player that year, maybe top 10 a few others too(17,15). He also coasts during the regular season so his impact shines in the playoffs. Ben Taylor said from 15-19, gs' playoff offense wasnt that remarkable, it was their playoff defense that was historically great. so much of that credit goes to draymond.


2nd scoring options are supposed to SCORE efficiently and attract defensive attention..

Unfortunately, Pippen was a system player and transition/hustle guy that wasn't on the scouting report (https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2022/qrDm8n.gif), so Jordan faced maximum defensive attention (carried scoring load) in every series (unique to Jordan)..

[NBAGOAT]

2nd scoring options are supposed to SCORE efficiently and attract defensive attention..

Unfortunately, Pippen was a system player and transition/hustle guy that wasn't on the scouting report (https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2022/qrDm8n.gif), so Jordan faced maximum defensive attention (carried scoring load) in every series (unique to Jordan)..

so i'm guessing if someone's 2nd option was actively hurting their offense and they won a title it would be GOAT lvl because even pippen never hurt the Bulls offfense