MJ shot 37% on threes from 85-93' whenever he took 3+ attempts in a RS game

[3ba11]

172/470 = 36.6%

MJ also shot well in any season that he took more than bailout volume (more than 1.5 attempts).

This includes the 92' Finals (5 attempts on 43%)... the 93' Playoffs (4 attempts on 39%)... the 90' and 93' regular seasons (3 attempts on 36%)

Notice how the efficiency increased with attempts because good form shoots threes better at higher volume.. And Jordan had goat shooting form... Curry would shoot poorly too if he purposefully limited himself to 1 highly-contested, end-of-shot clock three per game (bailout volume).

Btw, I haven't run the numbers, but I'm sure that Jordan shoots 40% or higher at 4+ attempts

[1987_Lakers]

Ordan wishes he could shoot like Curry

[8Ball]

MJ shot worst than Giannis at 3point shooting with the modern 3 point line.

[3ba11]

MJ shot worst than Giannis at 3point shooting with the modern 3 point line.


On zero volume... so who cares

Jordan destroys Giannis at anything above bailout volume (1.5 attempts)

At 5+ attempts, Jordan shoots like Curry (43%)

[Phoenix]

Btw, I haven't run the numbers, but I'm sure that Jordan shoots 40% or higher at 4+ attempts

Run the numbers and report back your findings.

[SouBeachTalents]

On zero volume... so who cares

Jordan destroys Giannis at anything above bailout volume (1.5 attempts)

At 5+ attempts, Jordan shoots like Curry (43%)
I refuse to believe you actually think a literal 6 game sample size equates Jordan with the greatest shooter of all time :lol Nobody is actually that stupid, not even you.

Btw, after the complete fluke of Game 1. Jordan made a grand total of 6 3’s over the final 5 games on a blistering 33%.

[RRR3]

I refuse to believe you actually think a literal 6 game sample size equates Jordan with the greatest shooter of all time :lol Nobody is actually that stupid, not even you.

Btw, after the complete fluke of Game 1. Jordan made a grand total of 6 3’s over the final 5 games on a blistering 33%.
You sure?

[Phoenix]

I refuse to believe you actually think a literal 6 game sample size equates Jordan with the greatest shooter of all time :lol Nobody is actually that stupid, not even you.

Btw, after the complete fluke of Game 1. Jordan made a grand total of 6 3’s over the final 5 games on a blistering 33%.

You're putting too much effort in. Here's his quote in response to me pointing out that 95 finals Robert Horry has a higher GmSc than finals 92 Drexler/96 Kemp/97 & 98 Malone. He of course downplayed this because of 'sample size,' but wait........


Stats are best used to indicate correlations, which is why sample size is required.. 1 or 2 instances isn't enough to declare anything



So what's the 'sample size' differential between Steph shooting 4+ attempts at 40+% and MJ doing it? Quite literally HUNDREDS of games. There's no comparison to be made here.

Now let's sit back and see him try to tapdance around that.

[Full Court]

Doesn't matter. Jordan didn't need three pointers to three-peat twice and become GOAT.

[8Ball]

On zero volume... so who cares

Jordan destroys Giannis at anything above bailout volume (1.5 attempts)

At 5+ attempts, Jordan shoots like Curry (43%)

For his entire career aggregated, he shot worst than Giannis at the modern 3 point line.

[8Ball]

172/470 = 36.6%

MJ also shot well in any season that he took more than bailout volume (more than 1.5 attempts).

This includes the 92' Finals (5 attempts on 43%)... the 93' Playoffs (4 attempts on 39%)... the 90' and 93' regular seasons (3 attempts on 36%)

Notice how the efficiency increased with attempts because good form shoots threes better at higher volume.. And Jordan had goat shooting form... Curry would shoot poorly too if he purposefully limited himself to 1 highly-contested, end-of-shot clock three per game (bailout volume).

Btw, I haven't run the numbers, but I'm sure that Jordan shoots 40% or higher at 4+ attempts

On zero volume, so who cares.


On zero volume... so who cares

Correct. Thread backfire.


8ball has never been wrong in this forum, ever.

[8Ball]

Doesn't matter. Jordan didn't need three pointers to three-peat twice and become GOAT.

It matters because its yet again another area where Jordan is inferior to LeBron.

[Full Court]

It matters because its yet again another area where Jordan is inferior to LeBron.

Says you and a handful of nutthugging Bronies. Jordan is the consensus GOAT. You should just deal with hit. Being in denial for 25 years can't be psychologically healthy.

[AirBonner]

MJ needed the wnba 3pt line to achieve this

[8Ball]

Says you and a handful of nutthugging Bronies. Jordan is the consensus GOAT. You should just deal with hit. Being in denial for 25 years can't be psychologically healthy.

Says me?

Look at Jordan's 3 point shooting with modern NBA line and its worst than Giannis and vastly worst than Bron.

[ShawkFactory]

Of course he was a way more capable shooter from deep than his averages early on would suggest.

And of course you're only bringing Steph's name into the equation to get attention on what you're trying to say. Obviously I know that you don't think that Jordan was a 3pt shooter on that level.

[Shooter]

MJ shot worst than Giannis at 3point shooting with the modern 3 point line.

Shut it down :lol

[8Ball]

Shut it down :lol

Sup Shooter. How's the weather in LA?

[Baller789]

Shut it down :lol


Sup Shooter. How's the weather in LA?
https://i.ibb.co/gDZgybb/images-5.jpg (https://imgbb.com/)

[Bronbron23]

Ordan wishes he could shoot like Curry

Everyone wishes they could shoot like curry dude.

[ImKobe]

MJ needed the wnba 3pt line to achieve this

OP is literally talking about the regular 3PT line seasons you dumb ****.

[plowking]

OP is literally talking about the regular 3PT line seasons you dumb ****.


on the most arbitrary set of requirements lol...

in this period
when he shot this much
in the regular season

Yeah, cool, but what did he shoot in general? Not that great from 3.

[ImKobe]

on the most arbitrary set of requirements lol...

in this period
when he shot this much
in the regular season

Yeah, cool, but what did he shoot in general? Not that great from 3.

You mean when he wasn't attempting real threes and only took bailout shots/half court buzzer beaters? MJ was a good 3PT shooter when he shot them at volume, which is evident by the stats. He shot 39%3PT in the Playoffs for a 3-year stretch in the first 3-Peat. He had good 3PT shooting seasons when he did attempt those shots, but he didn't need it too often as he was the GOAT inside the arc.

[3ba11]

You're putting too much effort in. Here's his quote in response to me pointing out that 95 finals Robert Horry has a higher GmSc than finals 92 Drexler/96 Kemp/97 & 98 Malone. He of course downplayed this because of 'sample size,' but wait........





Malone, Kemp or Drexler had lower gamescore than Horry once or twice, which isn't enough to say they're worse than Horry..

Getting a lower gamescore than Horry only matters if it's done over a meaningful sample size.. Only Pippen did that (6 of 6 times), so he's the only guy that we know is below peak-Horry performance.

Hope that helps..






So what's the 'sample size' differential between Steph shooting 4+ attempts at 40+% and MJ doing it? Quite literally HUNDREDS of games. There's no comparison to be made here.





Curry has the same sample differential with Bird, yet people consider Bird a goat jumpshooter

The point of this thread is to show that Jordan's career three-point percentage doesn't matter because it was mostly at bailout volume.. aka meaningless volume... bailout volume.. He always shot well above bailout volume, so that's the only part we should look at.. And it's still a meaningful sample - his games of 3+ attempts totaled 470 attempts in the 85-93' Playoffs at 37%..

This was back when no one practiced the shot outside of obvious snipers like Miller or Hornacek.. Certainly an athletic rim-attacker like Jordan never practiced them, and relied on his goat form and natural scoring talent to shoot a modern percentage whenever needed.






Now let's sit back and see him try to tapdance around that.





Quite easily

All we need to prove that Jordan was a great 3-point shooter is that Jordan shot 35.1% on 2.1 attempts in the 85-93' Playoffs, versus 35.2 on 1.9 attempts for 80-88' Bird

[Phoenix]

Malone, Kemp or Drexler had lower gamescore than Horry once or twice, which isn't enough to say they're worse than Horry..

Getting a lower gamescore than Horry only matters if it's done over a meaningful sample size.. Only Pippen did that (6 of 6 times), so he's the only guy that we know is below peak-Horry performance.

Hope that helps..







Since you repeated talking points, I'll merely drop this again.....



The 3ball GmSc conundrum

1990
vs Bucks Pippen 22.4 Ricky Pierce 15.7
vs Sixers Pippen 17.8 Hersey Hawkins 13.2
vs Pistons Pippen 12.2 Isiah Thomas 16.2

1991
vs Knicks Pippen 17.7 Kiki Vandeweghe 8.0
vs Sixers Pippen 20.8 Hersey Hawkins 16.9
vs Pistons Pippen 20.2 Aquirre 9.4 Vinnie 17.0 Dumars 7.1 Isiah 11.4 ( take your pick)
vs Lakers Pippen 17.5 Divac 16.1 Worthy 11.0 (take your pick)

1992
vs Heat Pippen 24.5 Steve Smith 15.1 ( First option Rony Seikaly 15.9)
vs Knicks Pippen 14.9 Xavier Mcdaniel 12.2
vs Cavs Pippen 17.4 Nance 16.1 Price 12.8 Daugherty 15.7 ( take your pick)
vs Blazers Pippen 18.1 Porter 12.5 ( fun fact: Drexler 18.4)

1993
vs Hawks Pippen 10.3 Kevin Willis 9.8
vs Cavs Pippen 15.2 Daughtery 13.6 (Nance 15.3, Price 9.9)
vs Knicks Pippen 15.7 Starks 8.4
vs Suns Pippen 15.6 Majerle 17.0

1995
vs Hornets Pippen 14.8 Johnson 15.8
vs Magic Pippen 15.8 Hardaway 15.4 ( Horace Grant 17.3)

1996
vs Heat Pippen 22.7( MJ 22.3) Hardaway 9.3 Mourning 8.5
vs Knicks Pippen 13.0 Starks 8.1
vs Magic Pippen 16.6 Hardaway 15.6
vs Sonics Pippen 13.4 Payton 14.4

1997
vs Bullets Pippen 12.0 Howard 14.0
vs Hawks Pippen 16.4 Steve Smith 8.1 Blaylock 15.7 Laettner 9.4 ( take your pick)
vs Heat Pippen 10.8 Mourning 8.9
vs Jazz Pippen 15.1 Stockton 14.9

1998
vs Nets Pippen 16.2 Kittles 10.4 Van Horn 7.0 Douglas 14.5 ( take your pick)
vs Hornets Pippen 16.9 Divac 11.0 Mason 10.7 ( first option Rice 13.6)
vs Pacers Pippen 13.0 Smits 10.9 ( first option Reggie Miller 11.6)
vs Jazz Pippen 13.0 Stockton 10.0

Now with that out of the way, we now turn our attention to 95 finals Robert Horry Gmsc vs Bulls finals opponents first options

95 Horry 19.0
96 Kemp 18.9
98 Malone 18.5
92 Drexler 18.4
97 Malone 16.8

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRr9wshLHZGTLX6Yg84JMdMXL2ESbR9r hspQA&usqp=CAU
"3ball Agenda": 95 finals Robert Horry played at a higher level than Pippen ever did because of GmSc, Pippen is the worst 2nd option

"Unintended consequence": That would also mean that 95 finals Horry played better than most of the Bulls finals first option opponents

"3ball moonwalking": 95 finals Horry having better GmSc than most of Bulls first option opponents doesn't count because of small sample size

"5 year old's retort": Pippen's GmSc over the majority of opposing 2nd options during the 90's Bulls run should count because of large sample size doe

"Conclusion"
https://image.shutterstock.com/image-photo/between-rock-hard-place-260nw-24293326.jpg


:roll:

You can wiggle around it till your little hearts content. The fact that Horry exceeded Drexler's GmSC at all IS THE POINT dumbass ( actually the point is using GmSc in the way you are is dumb period) but since you now wish to bring up that GmSc benefits 'hustlers and defenders' like Pippen...... Horry in that mythical 95 finals series scored 18ppg on 43% shooting. That's the kind of scoring you give Pippen shit for, meaning that Horry's high GmSc number for the series was mostly attributed to 'hustle' stats( he averaged 10 rebounds, 3 steals, 2 blocks in the 95 finals) and not elite scoring volume or efficiency. So just as you handwave Scottie's higher GmSc because of 'hustle and defense' stats, we can also do the same for Horry's 95 finals GmSc. Thanks for playing.

Also, why would Karl Malone's production be impacted by Jordan's defense? Is there some alternate reality you exist where he was the primary defender on Mailman? Was Kemp being defended by Jordan in your reality, instead of Rodman( and Kemp's GmSc edged higher than MJs that finals and not on account of 'hustle and defense' stats either)..

Whoops, hung yourself by your own arguments again. :oldlol:

Hope that helps......

The MJ-Curry 3point thing is too stupid to bother reading, so thanks for addressing that further down in your reply so I can gloss over it, know that its bullshit from the very first word and go back to watching basketball in 2022.

[Full Court]

on the most arbitrary set of requirements lol...

in this period
when he shot this much
in the regular season

Yeah, cool, but what did he shoot in general? Not that great from 3.

Fun fact: Jordan's 3pt % in the finals is better than Lebron's.

A fact that the Bronie's try to ignore like it's radioactive. Truth is, when it really counted, Jordan made his shots. Including threes.

[3ba11]

I'll merely drop this again.....






Hope that helps......

The MJ-Curry 3point thing is too stupid to bother reading, so thanks for addressing that further down in your reply so I can gloss over it, know that its bullshit from the very first word and go back to watching basketball in 2022.


You're pretending that elementary statistical fact and historical record is a subjective "talking point" - it's statistical fact and historical record that ONLY pippen failed to reach Horry-level over a meaningful sample size, so he's the only guy that we know is below Horry.. (95' Horry Finals).. One-off's by other players obviously don't prove anything like a meaningful sample size does (6/6).

And your stats show that Pippen had competitive gamescores due to good hustle stats compared to other sidekicks - hustle stats don't begin to offset Pippen's massive deficit in scoring/efficiency/clutch.

Every other sidekick was a 1b that could achieve elite scoring and lead the team, so they commanded defensive attention.. Pippen was the only sidekick that was a transition/hustle player and wasn't on the scouting report, so MJ faced maximum defensive attention - Pippen was infact nothing without a dynasty system.

Ultimately, getting a lower gamescore than Horry only matters if it's done over a meaningful sample size.. Only Pippen did that (6 of 6 times), so he's the only guy that we know is below peak-Horry performance.

[Shooter]

Sup Shooter. How's the weather in LA?

75 and beautiful like always. Just another day in paradise. How are you and the lady?

[Phoenix]

You're pretending that elementary statistical fact and historical record is a subjective "talking point" - it's statistical fact and historical record that ONLY pippen failed to reach Horry-level over a meaningful sample size, so he's the only guy that we know is below Horry.. (95' Horry Finals).. One-off's by other players obviously don't prove anything like a meaningful sample size does (6/6).

And your stats show that Pippen had competitive gamescores due to good hustle stats compared to other sidekicks - hustle stats don't begin to offset Pippen's massive deficit in scoring/efficiency/clutch.

Every other sidekick was a 1b that could achieve elite scoring and lead the team, so they commanded defensive attention.. Pippen was the only sidekick that was a transition/hustle player and wasn't on the scouting report, so MJ faced maximum defensive attention - Pippen was infact nothing without a dynasty system.

Ultimately, getting a lower gamescore than Horry only matters if it's done over a meaningful sample size.. Only Pippen did that (6 of 6 times), so he's the only guy that we know is below peak-Horry performance.

Repeat talking points? M'kay....

The 3ball GmSc conundrum

1990
vs Bucks Pippen 22.4 Ricky Pierce 15.7
vs Sixers Pippen 17.8 Hersey Hawkins 13.2
vs Pistons Pippen 12.2 Isiah Thomas 16.2

1991
vs Knicks Pippen 17.7 Kiki Vandeweghe 8.0
vs Sixers Pippen 20.8 Hersey Hawkins 16.9
vs Pistons Pippen 20.2 Aquirre 9.4 Vinnie 17.0 Dumars 7.1 Isiah 11.4 ( take your pick)
vs Lakers Pippen 17.5 Divac 16.1 Worthy 11.0 (take your pick)

1992
vs Heat Pippen 24.5 Steve Smith 15.1 ( First option Rony Seikaly 15.9)
vs Knicks Pippen 14.9 Xavier Mcdaniel 12.2
vs Cavs Pippen 17.4 Nance 16.1 Price 12.8 Daugherty 15.7 ( take your pick)
vs Blazers Pippen 18.1 Porter 12.5 ( fun fact: Drexler 18.4)

1993
vs Hawks Pippen 10.3 Kevin Willis 9.8
vs Cavs Pippen 15.2 Daughtery 13.6 (Nance 15.3, Price 9.9)
vs Knicks Pippen 15.7 Starks 8.4
vs Suns Pippen 15.6 Majerle 17.0

1995
vs Hornets Pippen 14.8 Johnson 15.8
vs Magic Pippen 15.8 Hardaway 15.4 ( Horace Grant 17.3)

1996
vs Heat Pippen 22.7( MJ 22.3) Hardaway 9.3 Mourning 8.5
vs Knicks Pippen 13.0 Starks 8.1
vs Magic Pippen 16.6 Hardaway 15.6
vs Sonics Pippen 13.4 Payton 14.4

1997
vs Bullets Pippen 12.0 Howard 14.0
vs Hawks Pippen 16.4 Steve Smith 8.1 Blaylock 15.7 Laettner 9.4 ( take your pick)
vs Heat Pippen 10.8 Mourning 8.9
vs Jazz Pippen 15.1 Stockton 14.9

1998
vs Nets Pippen 16.2 Kittles 10.4 Van Horn 7.0 Douglas 14.5 ( take your pick)
vs Hornets Pippen 16.9 Divac 11.0 Mason 10.7 ( first option Rice 13.6)
vs Pacers Pippen 13.0 Smits 10.9 ( first option Reggie Miller 11.6)
vs Jazz Pippen 13.0 Stockton 10.0

Now with that out of the way, we now turn our attention to 95 finals Robert Horry Gmsc vs Bulls finals opponents first options

95 Horry 19.0
96 Kemp 18.9
98 Malone 18.5
92 Drexler 18.4
97 Malone 16.8

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRr9wshLHZGTLX6Yg84JMdMXL2ESbR9r hspQA&usqp=CAU
"3ball Agenda": 95 finals Robert Horry played at a higher level than Pippen ever did because of GmSc, Pippen is the worst 2nd option

"Unintended consequence": That would also mean that 95 finals Horry played better than most of the Bulls finals first option opponents

"3ball moonwalking": 95 finals Horry having better GmSc than most of Bulls first option opponents doesn't count because of small sample size

"5 year old's retort": Pippen's GmSc over the majority of opposing 2nd options during the 90's Bulls run should count because of large sample size doe

"Conclusion"
https://image.shutterstock.com/image-photo/between-rock-hard-place-260nw-24293326.jpg

:roll:

You can wiggle around it till your little hearts content. The fact that Horry exceeded Drexler's GmSC at all IS THE POINT dumbass ( actually the point is using GmSc in the way you are is dumb period) but since you now wish to bring up that GmSc benefits 'hustlers and defenders' like Pippen...... Horry in that mythical 95 finals series scored 18ppg on 43% shooting. That's the kind of scoring you give Pippen shit for, meaning that Horry's high GmSc number for the series was mostly attributed to 'hustle' stats( he averaged 10 rebounds, 3 steals, 2 blocks in the 95 finals) and not elite scoring volume or efficiency. So just as you handwave Scottie's higher GmSc because of 'hustle and defense' stats, we can also do the same for Horry's 95 finals GmSc. Thanks for playing.

Also, why would Karl Malone's production be impacted by Jordan's defense? Is there some alternate reality you exist where he was the primary defender on Mailman? Was Kemp being defended by Jordan in your reality, instead of Rodman( and Kemp's GmSc edged higher than MJs that finals and not on account of 'hustle and defense' stats either)..

Whoops, hung yourself by your own arguments again. :oldlol:

[3ba11]

Repeat talking points? M'kay....

The 3ball GmSc conundrum

1990
vs Bucks Pippen 22.4 Ricky Pierce 15.7
vs Sixers Pippen 17.8 Hersey Hawkins 13.2
vs Pistons Pippen 12.2 Isiah Thomas 16.2

1991
vs Knicks Pippen 17.7 Kiki Vandeweghe 8.0
vs Sixers Pippen 20.8 Hersey Hawkins 16.9
vs Pistons Pippen 20.2 Aquirre 9.4 Vinnie 17.0 Dumars 7.1 Isiah 11.4 ( take your pick)
vs Lakers Pippen 17.5 Divac 16.1 Worthy 11.0 (take your pick)

1992
vs Heat Pippen 24.5 Steve Smith 15.1 ( First option Rony Seikaly 15.9)
vs Knicks Pippen 14.9 Xavier Mcdaniel 12.2
vs Cavs Pippen 17.4 Nance 16.1 Price 12.8 Daugherty 15.7 ( take your pick)
vs Blazers Pippen 18.1 Porter 12.5 ( fun fact: Drexler 18.4)

1993
vs Hawks Pippen 10.3 Kevin Willis 9.8
vs Cavs Pippen 15.2 Daughtery 13.6 (Nance 15.3, Price 9.9)
vs Knicks Pippen 15.7 Starks 8.4
vs Suns Pippen 15.6 Majerle 17.0

1995
vs Hornets Pippen 14.8 Johnson 15.8
vs Magic Pippen 15.8 Hardaway 15.4 ( Horace Grant 17.3)

1996
vs Heat Pippen 22.7( MJ 22.3) Hardaway 9.3 Mourning 8.5
vs Knicks Pippen 13.0 Starks 8.1
vs Magic Pippen 16.6 Hardaway 15.6
vs Sonics Pippen 13.4 Payton 14.4

1997
vs Bullets Pippen 12.0 Howard 14.0
vs Hawks Pippen 16.4 Steve Smith 8.1 Blaylock 15.7 Laettner 9.4 ( take your pick)
vs Heat Pippen 10.8 Mourning 8.9
vs Jazz Pippen 15.1 Stockton 14.9

1998
vs Nets Pippen 16.2 Kittles 10.4 Van Horn 7.0 Douglas 14.5 ( take your pick)
vs Hornets Pippen 16.9 Divac 11.0 Mason 10.7 ( first option Rice 13.6)
vs Pacers Pippen 13.0 Smits 10.9 ( first option Reggie Miller 11.6)
vs Jazz Pippen 13.0 Stockton 10.0

Now with that out of the way, we now turn our attention to 95 finals Robert Horry Gmsc vs Bulls finals opponents first options

95 Horry 19.0
96 Kemp 18.9
98 Malone 18.5
92 Drexler 18.4
97 Malone 16.8

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRr9wshLHZGTLX6Yg84JMdMXL2ESbR9r hspQA&usqp=CAU
"3ball Agenda": 95 finals Robert Horry played at a higher level than Pippen ever did because of GmSc, Pippen is the worst 2nd option

"Unintended consequence": That would also mean that 95 finals Horry played better than most of the Bulls finals first option opponents

"3ball moonwalking": 95 finals Horry having better GmSc than most of Bulls first option opponents doesn't count because of small sample size

"5 year old's retort": Pippen's GmSc over the majority of opposing 2nd options during the 90's Bulls run should count because of large sample size doe

"Conclusion"
https://image.shutterstock.com/image-photo/between-rock-hard-place-260nw-24293326.jpg

:roll:

You can wiggle around it till your little hearts content. The fact that Horry exceeded Drexler's GmSC at all IS THE POINT dumbass ( actually the point is using GmSc in the way you are is dumb period) but since you now wish to bring up that GmSc benefits 'hustlers and defenders' like Pippen...... Horry in that mythical 95 finals series scored 18ppg on 43% shooting. That's the kind of scoring you give Pippen shit for, meaning that Horry's high GmSc number for the series was mostly attributed to 'hustle' stats( he averaged 10 rebounds, 3 steals, 2 blocks in the 95 finals) and not elite scoring volume or efficiency. So just as you handwave Scottie's higher GmSc because of 'hustle and defense' stats, we can also do the same for Horry's 95 finals GmSc. Thanks for playing.

Also, why would Karl Malone's production be impacted by Jordan's defense? Is there some alternate reality you exist where he was the primary defender on Mailman? Was Kemp being defended by Jordan in your reality, instead of Rodman( and Kemp's GmSc edged higher than MJs that finals and not on account of 'hustle and defense' stats either)..

Whoops, hung yourself by your own arguments again. :oldlol:


^^^ Indeed your stats show that Pippen had competitive gamescores due to good hustle stats compared to other sidekicks - but hustle stats don't begin to offset Pippen's massive deficit in scoring/efficiency/clutch.

Pippen never played at the typical elite 1st option level that everyone likes to see, while every other 1st option did.. Every other 1st option was infact a 1b with numerous dominant series that led their team, while Pippen was always a transition/hustle player - he was NEVER a go-to player and simply lucked out by joining dynasty system chemistry (literally NOTHING without the triangle).. He's the only sidekick that never achieved elite ppg, rpg or apg in any series.

And again, who cares if Drexler, Kemp or Malone played worse than Horry once - Pippen did it 6/6 times!!! So he's the only guy that we can say is below peak-Horry performance... Btw, Horry hit 100 big shots to win 7 rings, while Pippen hit 0 to win 6 (carried)

[Phoenix]

^^^ Indeed your stats show that Pippen had competitive gamescores due to good hustle stats compared to other sidekicks - but hustle stats don't begin to offset Pippen's massive deficit in scoring/efficiency/clutch.

Pippen never played at the typical elite 1st option level that everyone likes to see, while every other 1st option did.. Every other 1st option was infact a 1b with numerous dominant series that led their team, while Pippen was always a transition/hustle player - he was NEVER a go-to player and simply lucked out by joining dynasty system chemistry (literally NOTHING without the triangle).. He's the only sidekick that never achieved elite ppg, rpg or apg in any series.

And again, who cares if Drexler, Kemp or Malone played worse than Horry once - Pippen did it 6/6 times!!! So he's the only guy that we can say is below peak-Horry performance... Btw, Horry hit 100 big shots to win 7 rings, while Pippen hit 0 to win 6 (carried)

Repeat talking points? M'kay....

The 3ball GmSc conundrum

1990
vs Bucks Pippen 22.4 Ricky Pierce 15.7
vs Sixers Pippen 17.8 Hersey Hawkins 13.2
vs Pistons Pippen 12.2 Isiah Thomas 16.2

1991
vs Knicks Pippen 17.7 Kiki Vandeweghe 8.0
vs Sixers Pippen 20.8 Hersey Hawkins 16.9
vs Pistons Pippen 20.2 Aquirre 9.4 Vinnie 17.0 Dumars 7.1 Isiah 11.4 ( take your pick)
vs Lakers Pippen 17.5 Divac 16.1 Worthy 11.0 (take your pick)

1992
vs Heat Pippen 24.5 Steve Smith 15.1 ( First option Rony Seikaly 15.9)
vs Knicks Pippen 14.9 Xavier Mcdaniel 12.2
vs Cavs Pippen 17.4 Nance 16.1 Price 12.8 Daugherty 15.7 ( take your pick)
vs Blazers Pippen 18.1 Porter 12.5 ( fun fact: Drexler 18.4)

1993
vs Hawks Pippen 10.3 Kevin Willis 9.8
vs Cavs Pippen 15.2 Daughtery 13.6 (Nance 15.3, Price 9.9)
vs Knicks Pippen 15.7 Starks 8.4
vs Suns Pippen 15.6 Majerle 17.0

1995
vs Hornets Pippen 14.8 Johnson 15.8
vs Magic Pippen 15.8 Hardaway 15.4 ( Horace Grant 17.3)

1996
vs Heat Pippen 22.7( MJ 22.3) Hardaway 9.3 Mourning 8.5
vs Knicks Pippen 13.0 Starks 8.1
vs Magic Pippen 16.6 Hardaway 15.6
vs Sonics Pippen 13.4 Payton 14.4

1997
vs Bullets Pippen 12.0 Howard 14.0
vs Hawks Pippen 16.4 Steve Smith 8.1 Blaylock 15.7 Laettner 9.4 ( take your pick)
vs Heat Pippen 10.8 Mourning 8.9
vs Jazz Pippen 15.1 Stockton 14.9

1998
vs Nets Pippen 16.2 Kittles 10.4 Van Horn 7.0 Douglas 14.5 ( take your pick)
vs Hornets Pippen 16.9 Divac 11.0 Mason 10.7 ( first option Rice 13.6)
vs Pacers Pippen 13.0 Smits 10.9 ( first option Reggie Miller 11.6)
vs Jazz Pippen 13.0 Stockton 10.0

Now with that out of the way, we now turn our attention to 95 finals Robert Horry Gmsc vs Bulls finals opponents first options

95 Horry 19.0
96 Kemp 18.9
98 Malone 18.5
92 Drexler 18.4
97 Malone 16.8

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRr9wshLHZGTLX6Yg84JMdMXL2ESbR9r hspQA&usqp=CAU
"3ball Agenda": 95 finals Robert Horry played at a higher level than Pippen ever did because of GmSc, Pippen is the worst 2nd option

"Unintended consequence": That would also mean that 95 finals Horry played better than most of the Bulls finals first option opponents

"3ball moonwalking": 95 finals Horry having better GmSc than most of Bulls first option opponents doesn't count because of small sample size

"5 year old's retort": Pippen's GmSc over the majority of opposing 2nd options during the 90's Bulls run should count because of large sample size doe

"Conclusion"
https://image.shutterstock.com/image-photo/between-rock-hard-place-260nw-24293326.jpg

:roll:

You can wiggle around it till your little hearts content. The fact that Horry exceeded Drexler's GmSC at all IS THE POINT dumbass ( actually the point is using GmSc in the way you are is dumb period) but since you now wish to bring up that GmSc benefits 'hustlers and defenders' like Pippen...... Horry in that mythical 95 finals series scored 18ppg on 43% shooting. That's the kind of scoring you give Pippen shit for, meaning that Horry's high GmSc number for the series was mostly attributed to 'hustle' stats( he averaged 10 rebounds, 3 steals, 2 blocks in the 95 finals) and not elite scoring volume or efficiency. So just as you handwave Scottie's higher GmSc because of 'hustle and defense' stats, we can also do the same for Horry's 95 finals GmSc. Thanks for playing.

Also, why would Karl Malone's production be impacted by Jordan's defense? Is there some alternate reality you exist where he was the primary defender on Mailman? Was Kemp being defended by Jordan in your reality, instead of Rodman( and Kemp's GmSc edged higher than MJs that finals and not on account of 'hustle and defense' stats either)..

Whoops, hung yourself by your own arguments again.

[Phoenix]

Role playera get hustle stats and gamescore, while 2nd options are supposed to score and attract defensive attention - Pippen was the worst at this,vso Jordan faced maximum defensive attention (carried scoring load) in e every series.

Ultimately, your stats show that Pippen had competitive gamescores due to good hustle stats compared to other sidekicks - but hustle stats don't begin to offset Pippen's massive deficit in scoring/efficiency/clutch.

Pippen never played at the typical elite 1st option level that everyone likes to see, while every other 1st option did.. Other sidekicks were infact 1b's with numerous dominant series that led their team, while Pippen was always a transition/hustle player - he was NEVER a go-to player and simply lucked out by joining dynasty system chemistry (literally NOTHING without the triangle).. He's the only sidekick that never achieved elite ppg, rpg or apg in any series.

And again, who cares if Drexler, Kemp or Malone played worse than Horry once - Pippen did it 6/6 times!!! So he's the only guy that we can say is below peak-Horry performance... Btw, Horry hit 100 big shots to win 7 rings, while Pippen hit 0 to win 6 (carried)

Got this boy F5ing with one minute turnarounds :oldlol:



The 3ball GmSc conundrum

1990
vs Bucks Pippen 22.4 Ricky Pierce 15.7
vs Sixers Pippen 17.8 Hersey Hawkins 13.2
vs Pistons Pippen 12.2 Isiah Thomas 16.2

1991
vs Knicks Pippen 17.7 Kiki Vandeweghe 8.0
vs Sixers Pippen 20.8 Hersey Hawkins 16.9
vs Pistons Pippen 20.2 Aquirre 9.4 Vinnie 17.0 Dumars 7.1 Isiah 11.4 ( take your pick)
vs Lakers Pippen 17.5 Divac 16.1 Worthy 11.0 (take your pick)

1992
vs Heat Pippen 24.5 Steve Smith 15.1 ( First option Rony Seikaly 15.9)
vs Knicks Pippen 14.9 Xavier Mcdaniel 12.2
vs Cavs Pippen 17.4 Nance 16.1 Price 12.8 Daugherty 15.7 ( take your pick)
vs Blazers Pippen 18.1 Porter 12.5 ( fun fact: Drexler 18.4)

1993
vs Hawks Pippen 10.3 Kevin Willis 9.8
vs Cavs Pippen 15.2 Daughtery 13.6 (Nance 15.3, Price 9.9)
vs Knicks Pippen 15.7 Starks 8.4
vs Suns Pippen 15.6 Majerle 17.0

1995
vs Hornets Pippen 14.8 Johnson 15.8
vs Magic Pippen 15.8 Hardaway 15.4 ( Horace Grant 17.3)

1996
vs Heat Pippen 22.7( MJ 22.3) Hardaway 9.3 Mourning 8.5
vs Knicks Pippen 13.0 Starks 8.1
vs Magic Pippen 16.6 Hardaway 15.6
vs Sonics Pippen 13.4 Payton 14.4

1997
vs Bullets Pippen 12.0 Howard 14.0
vs Hawks Pippen 16.4 Steve Smith 8.1 Blaylock 15.7 Laettner 9.4 ( take your pick)
vs Heat Pippen 10.8 Mourning 8.9
vs Jazz Pippen 15.1 Stockton 14.9

1998
vs Nets Pippen 16.2 Kittles 10.4 Van Horn 7.0 Douglas 14.5 ( take your pick)
vs Hornets Pippen 16.9 Divac 11.0 Mason 10.7 ( first option Rice 13.6)
vs Pacers Pippen 13.0 Smits 10.9 ( first option Reggie Miller 11.6)
vs Jazz Pippen 13.0 Stockton 10.0

Now with that out of the way, we now turn our attention to 95 finals Robert Horry Gmsc vs Bulls finals opponents first options

95 Horry 19.0
96 Kemp 18.9
98 Malone 18.5
92 Drexler 18.4
97 Malone 16.8

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRr9wshLHZGTLX6Yg84JMdMXL2ESbR9r hspQA&usqp=CAU
"3ball Agenda": 95 finals Robert Horry played at a higher level than Pippen ever did because of GmSc, Pippen is the worst 2nd option

"Unintended consequence": That would also mean that 95 finals Horry played better than most of the Bulls finals first option opponents

"3ball moonwalking": 95 finals Horry having better GmSc than most of Bulls first option opponents doesn't count because of small sample size

"5 year old's retort": Pippen's GmSc over the majority of opposing 2nd options during the 90's Bulls run should count because of large sample size doe

"Conclusion"
https://image.shutterstock.com/image-photo/between-rock-hard-place-260nw-24293326.jpg

:roll:

[I]You can wiggle around it till your little hearts content. The fact that Horry exceeded Drexler's GmSC at all IS THE POINT dumbass ( actually the point is using GmSc in the way you are is dumb period) but since you now wish to bring up that GmSc benefits 'hustlers and defenders' like Pippen...... Horry in that mythical 95 finals series scored 18ppg on 43% shooting. That's the kind of scoring you give Pippen shit for, meaning that Horry's high GmSc number for the series was mostly attributed to 'hustle' stats( he averaged 10 rebounds, 3 steals, 2 blocks in the 95 finals) and not elite scoring volume or efficiency. So just as you handwave Scottie's higher GmSc because of 'hustle and defense' stats, we can also do the same for Horry's 95 finals GmSc. Thanks for playing.

Also, why would Karl Malone's production be impacted by Jordan's defense? Is there some alternate reality you exist where he was the primary defender on Mailman? Was Kemp being defended by Jordan in your reality, instead of Rodman( and Kemp's GmSc edged higher than MJs that finals and not on account of 'hustle and defense' stats either)..

Whoops, hung yourself by your own arguments again.

[8Ball]

75 and beautiful like always. Just another day in paradise. How are you and the lady?

We doing excellent. Gave her $50K to buy furniture to match the nice condo and she hasn't pulled the trigger on anything yet :lol.

So far there has been only 3 sunny days here. Haven't even used the rooftop pool yet. Weather here sucks.

[3ba11]

]

:roll:

You can wiggle around it till your little hearts content. The fact that Horry exceeded Drexler's GmSC at all IS THE POINT dumbass ( actually the point is using GmSc in the way you are is dumb period) but since you now wish to bring up that GmSc benefits 'hustlers and defenders' like Pippen...... Horry in that mythical 95 finals series scored 18ppg on 43% shooting. That's the kind of scoring you give Pippen shit for, meaning that Horry's high GmSc number for the series was mostly attributed to 'hustle' stats( he averaged 10 rebounds, 3 steals, 2 blocks in the 95 finals) and not elite scoring volume or efficiency. So just as you handwave Scottie's higher GmSc because of 'hustle and defense' stats, we can also do the same for Horry's 95 finals GmSc. Thanks for playing.

Also, why would Karl Malone's production be impacted by Jordan's defense? Is there some alternate reality you exist where he was the primary defender on Mailman? Was Kemp being defended by Jordan in your reality, instead of Rodman( and Kemp's GmSc edged higher than MJs that finals and not on account of 'hustle and defense' stats either)..

Whoops, hung yourself by your own arguments again.


^^^ Yes I get it - point taken on Horry's hustle stats - that's my point about your stats that show competitive gamescores for Pippen.

This shows that role players can get hustle stats and gamescore, while 2nd scoring options are supposed to SCORE efficiently and attract defensive attention.. Unfortunately, Pippen was a system player and transition/hustle guy that wasn't on the scouting report (https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2022/qrDm8n.gif), so Jordan faced maximum defensive attention (carried scoring load) in every series (unique to Jordan)..

[Phoenix]

^^^ Yes I get it - point taken on Horry's hustle stats - that's my point about your stats that show competitive gamescores for Pippen.

This shows that role players can get hustle stats and gamescore, while 2nd scoring options are supposed to SCORE efficiently and attract defensive attention.. Unfortunately, Pippen was a system player and transition/hustle guy that wasn't on the scouting report (https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2022/qrDm8n.gif), so Jordan faced maximum defensive attention (carried scoring load) in every series (unique to Jordan)..

The long and short; you used GmSc for 95 finals Horry to demonstrate superiority over Pippen. I did the legwork to show that Scottie actually had higher GmSc than the majority of 2nd options he faced in the playoffs from 90-98. This subsequently forced you to downplay GmSc with the 'hustle and defense' argument, which easily ( and I do mean EASILY) kills your argument when you look under the hood at 95 finals Horry stats and realize that his scoring wasn't the reason he had a high GmSc, it was the 'hustle and defense' stats that you said aided Pippen. You got caught in your own bullshit....the GmSc metric is a dumb argument, and its been fully exposed as such. Do better.

[3ba11]

The long and short; you used GmSc for 95 finals Horry to demonstrate superiority over Pippen. I did the legwork to show that Scottie actually had higher GmSc than the majority of 2nd options he faced in the playoffs from 90-98. This subsequently forced you to downplay GmSc with the 'hustle and defense' argument, which easily ( and I do mean EASILY) kills your argument when you look under the hood at 95 finals Horry stats and realize that his scoring wasn't the reason he had a high GmSc, it was the 'hustle and defense' stats that you said aided Pippen. You got caught in your own bullshit....the GmSc metric is a dumb argument, and its been fully exposed as such. Do better.


All that may be true and yet ONLY PIPPEN failed to reach Horry-level over a meaningful sample size (6 for 6).. That proves to both of us that Pippen was never as productive as 95' Horry in any Finals - Jordan won 6 chips with a sidekick that was worse than 95' Horry (6/6), aka GOAT by far

[kawhileonard2]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?489748-When-KD-and-Lebron-go-head-to-head
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=459570

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495113-Vassilis-Spanoulis-Giannis-Antetokounmpo-s-And-Luka-Doncic-s-Idol-Retired
https://www.espn.com/olympics/wbc2006/news/story?id=2568543

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495940-Lebron-with-Shaq-2nd-round-exit-Giannis-with-Middleton-a-Title

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495955-Giannis-just-blasted-those-who-join-super-teams-in-post-conference-interview

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?493982-Devin-Booker-Vs-Lebron-James-who-is-better-currently

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496095-Devin-Booker-put-up-47-his-playoff-career-high-on-Lebron

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496253-Lebron-won-2-bronze-medals-for-the-United-States-of-America-How

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496256-Lebron-with-Tim-Duncan-Bronze-Medal-in-Olympics-Vince-with-KG-Gold-Medal

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496255-Lebron-with-Carlos-Boozer-No-Playoffs-Deron-Williams-with-Carlos-Boozer-WCF

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496549-Lebron-stacking-the-deck-in-2022-because-he-is-afraid-of-Devin-Booker

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?492941-1-Title-in-11-Years-for-the-Franchise-that-you-originally-played-for


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496831-times-when-each-top-10-player-all-time-Lost-when-they-were-expected-to-win

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?486706-Rob-Parker-LeBron-is-the-FFOAT

Record against teams with an SRS of 5.0 or higher.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?497187-Record-against-teams-with-an-SRS-of-5-0-or-higher

Not 3, not 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 or Playoff Mode Activated or A Storm is Coming
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?494319-Not-3-not-4-5-6-7-8-or-Playoff-Mode-Activated-or-A-Storm-is-Coming/page2


Playoff Mode: ACTIVATED
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?473762-Playoff-Mode-ACTIVATED

Lowest Scoring Supporting Cast Overall Playoffs
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?463869-Lowest-Scoring-Supporting-Cast-Overall-Playoffs/page3


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?499837-Greatest-floor-raise-of-all-time/page2
Lebron played with Shaq who won league mvp and 3 finals mvp's and lost in round 2. Lebron played with Peak Duncan who had won 2 league mvp's and 3 finals mvp's and won bronze medal. Lebron played with Peak Wade who won finals mvp and got outplayed by Jason Terry. Lebron played with Derrick Rose who won mvp under age 30 which was the same as Kevin Durant who won mvp under 30 while both were on Golden State and Cleveland. Lebron played with mulitple PER leaders as well and now Russell Westbrook a league mvp winner and more triple doubles than Oscar Robertson. Yet despite all of that Lebron lost with all of them.


Jarrett Allen vs Gobert and Jarrett Allen vs Lebron
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?499786-Jarrett-Allen-vs-Gobert-and-Jarrett-Allen-vs-Lebron

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500431-Lakers-were-1-in-Preseason-Odds-in-2021-and-Suns-were-14
Was #1 in Preseason odds and lost to a 14th seed in odds

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2021_preseason_odds.html

And Devin Booker walked them down in the playoffs with Devin outplaying Lebron. :confusedshrug:


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500416-Why-did-Pelinka-surround-Lebron-with-a-bullshit-roster
He has peak Anthony Davis, the best player on the 2020 squad and the reason the Lakers did anything as the 2019 Lakers missed the playoffs and 2021 Lakers lost in round 1 when AD wasn't around. He has Prime Melo who won a scoring title and all time leader in scoring for the Olympics. He has Dwight Howard a 3x DPOY and a guy who beat Lebron without HCA. He has Westbrook who is the modern day Oscar Robertson and also won league mvp along with average a Triple Double 4 years in a row. He also has Rondo who is a hall of famer.

Why didn't he play it against Dwight Howard in 2009 when Dwight was dominating http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?459570-How-is-it-even-possible-to-lose-to-Dwight-Howard-in-a-series-with-HCA/page10? Or against Duncan or KG or Dirk? Why did he run away from KD a guy at his position?
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?489748-When-KD-and-Lebron-go-head-to-head

Why didn't he do **** against Booker in the playoffs as well?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496095-Devin-Booker-put-up-47-his-playoff-career-high-on-Lebron


Devin Booker broke Lebron
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500264-Devin-Booker-broke-Lebron&p=14500724


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?503966-3ball-why-can-LeBron-win-with-Irving-but-KD-can-t&p=14584482#post14584482

Lebron won bronze medal twice and lost with HCA 3x. Jordan only won gold medal and never lost with HCA. Prove me wrong!

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500440-Russell-Westbrook-leading-the-league-in-Triple-Doubles-Thus-far-in-2022-Season
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/triple-double-leaders-2021-2022-stats

Expected Championships Won and Titles Over Expected
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500379-Expected-Championships-Won-and-Titles-Over-Expected/page3&p=14503600


How did LeBron go 10-16 vs Kawhi? 7-12 vs Shaq? 17-23 vs Curry?
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500334-How-did-LeBron-go-10-16-vs-Kawhi-7-12-vs-Shaq-17-23-vs-Curry

Top 50 All-Time List - Shot Clock Era = #1
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?497028-Top-50-All-Time-List-Shot-Clock-Era-1&p=14426360&viewfull=1#post14426360


Difference between Lebron and Tmac?
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?494830-Difference-between-Lebron-and-Tmac
Both 0-2 with HCA against 50+ win teams until they joined forces with someone who won as the man. Also won bronze medals.

Tmac lost to Utah in 2007 while Lebron was losing to a career loser in Dwight Howard and also Carlos Arroyo in the Olympics with peak Tim Duncan on his squad despite playing more minutes than Hakeem even played on the 1996 Olympic team.



LeBron's message that makes the NBA shake: A storm is coming
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500734-LeBron-s-message-that-makes-the-NBA-shake-A-storm-is-coming

https://www.marca.com/en/more-sports/2021/04/09/6070b833ca47418e588b45e9.html


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?480740-Vasileios-Spanoulis-gt-gt-gt-Lebron-James
Outplayed Lebron in FIBA and caused America to get another bronze medal and then Greece got spanked in Gold medal final.:oldlol:

http://archive.fiba.com/pages/eng/fa/game/p/gid/A/grid/75/rid/5152/sid/3507/_/2006_FIBA_World_Championship/statistic.html


First Time Ever a team with 2 guys who won MVP missed the playoffs
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?503543-First-Time-Ever-a-team-with-2-guys-who-won-MVP-missed-the-playoffs


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?503981-Why-does-Lebron-have-2-bronze-medals-while-KD-only-has-gold-medals&p=14584371#post14584371

https://media0.giphy.com/media/l0ErLeqamV3UOARsA/giphy.gif

[Phoenix]

All that may be true and yet ONLY PIPPEN failed to reach Horry-level over a meaningful sample size (6 for 6).. That proves to both of us that Pippen was never as productive as 95' Horry in any Finals - Jordan won 6 chips like that (6/6), aka GOAT by far

Kobe Bryant has a lower GmSc in 5 out of 7 finals, a meaningful sample size, so that proves to both of us that most of Kobe's finals were less productive than 95 finals Horry.

I think you need to try and dig up a better argument that doesn't lead to so many unintended conclusions.

[3ba11]

Kobe Bryant has a lower GmSc in 5 out of 7 finals, so that proves to both of us that most of Kobe's finals were less productive than 95 finals Horry.

I think you need to try and dig up a better argument that doesn't lead to so many unintended conclusions.


Yes Kobe was less productive 5 of 7 times based on gamescore, but his 2 superior performances prove that he's capable of playing better than peak Horry - ONLY PIPPEN IS NOT

Imagine winning 6 chips with a sidekick that wasn't capable of reaching peak-Horry caliber

[Phoenix]

Yes Kobe was less productive 5 of 7 times based on gamescore, but his 2 superior performances prove that he's capable of playing better than peak Horry - ONLY PIPPEN IS NOT

Imagine winning 6 chips with a sidekick that would never reach peak-Horry caliber

You're bragging that Kobe has 2 finals performances with higher GmSc than Horry, as a means to say he's capable of playing better than peak Horry. First, Kobe Bryant is multiple tiers better than Scottie so arguing that he's capable of doing something that Scottie can't is a dumb non-argument. He's also exponentially better than Robert Horry and bragging that 'at least Kobe had 2 out of 7 higher finals GmSc than Robert Horry' is not a hill you want to die on.

You also sound like a complete retard saying 'peak' Horry like he's some MVP level, multiple all-nba teamer. Dude was a role player, a great one, but nobody that you need to apply the term 'peak' to like this is supposed to mean something.

[3ba11]

You're bragging that Kobe has 2 finals performances with higher GmSc than Horry, as a means to say he's capable of playing better than peak Horry. First, Kobe Bryant is multiple tiers better than Scottie so arguing that he's capable of doing something that Scottie can't is a dumb non-argument. He's also exponentially better than Robert Horry and bragging that 'at least Kobe had 2 out of 7 higher finals GmSc than Robert Horry' is not a hill you want to die on.

You also sound like a complete retard saying 'peak' Horry like he's some MVP level, multiple all-nba teamer. Dude was a role player, a great one, but nobody that you need to apply the term 'peak' to like this is supposed to mean something.


Even based on a hustle stat like gamescore, we know Kobe > Horry because he had higher gamescore than Horry ever achieved.

Otoh, we know that Pippen wasn't capable of Horry-level because he simply never reached that level (over a long period)

[Phoenix]

Even based on a hustle stat like gamescore, we know Kobe > Horry because he had higher gamescore than Horry ever achieved.

Otoh, we know that Pippen wasn't capable of Horry-level because he simply never reached that level (over a long period)

2 out of 7 times, low sample size. Remember that?

Kobe is better than Robert Horry dumbass, and it has nothing to do with GmSc. Scottie Pippen is also better than Robert Horry, and that also has nothing to do with GmSc.

Here's the point that you're either too stupid to understand, you're trolling, or you're playing dumb: GmSC is NOT a metric to use to determine one player is better or worse. There's TONS of context involved. So you want to use it when it comes to Pippen, but handwave it for Kobe. No, don't use it period. Forget it exists, it's dumb, and you're an idiot for using it.

BTW, Scottie has had GmScs higher than 19.0, just not in the finals. He had a 20.2 against Detroit in the 91 ECFs, for one. Now go ahead and downplay the Pistons.

[3ba11]

2 out of 7 times, low sample size. Remember that?

Kobe is better than Robert Horry dumbass, and it has nothing to do with GmSc. Scottie Pippen is also better than Robert Horry, and that also has nothing to do with GmSc.

Here's the point that you're either too stupid to understand, you're trolling, or you're playing dumb: GmSC is NOT a metric to use to determine one player is better or worse. There's TONS of context involved. So you want to use it when it comes to Pippen, but handwave it for Kobe. No, don't use it period. Forget it exists, it's dumb, and you're an idiot for using it.

BTW, Scottie has had GmScs higher than 19.0, just not in the finals. He had a 20.2 against Detroit in the 91 ECFs, for one. Now go ahead and downplay the Pistons.


Let's say that you're playing a Finals where you have the option of 95' Horry's bigger, faster, stronger, with 3 steals and 2 blocks plus he shoots like 55% on clutch threes with high volume.. athletic stretch 4

Or Pippen's lower steals, blocks, and zero clutch - literally a BUM and 6th clutch option behind Kerr, Paxson, Kukoc, Longley and BJ... Guaranteed lower gamescore than Horry and night-and-day difference in clutch and "dog"

[RRR3]

D-DUHHHHHHH-uhhhhh-uhhh
:roll:

[Phoenix]

Let's say that you're playing a Finals where you have the option of 95' Horry's bigger, faster, stronger, with 3 steals and 2 blocks plus he shoots like 55% on clutch threes with high volume.. athletic stretch 4

Or Pippen's lower steals, blocks, and zero clutch - literally a BUM and 6th clutch option behind Kerr, Paxson, Kukoc, Longley and BJ... Guaranteed lower gamescore than Horry and night-and-day difference in clutch and "dog"

You're beating a dead horse that you killed yourself. Your GmSc argument was always silly, and you're like a fish on the hook flailing about trying to justify it.

[ShawkFactory]

All that may be true and yet ONLY PIPPEN failed to reach Horry-level over a meaningful sample size (6 for 6).. That proves to both of us that Pippen was never as productive as 95' Horry in any Finals - Jordan won 6 chips with a sidekick that was worse than 95' Horry (6/6), aka GOAT by far

This is a 4 game sample that you're discussing.

[Phoenix]

This is a 4 game sample that you're discussing.

Lol exactly. Everything about how he's using GmSc here is retarded, including the arbitrary usage of sample sizes.

[ShawkFactory]

Lol exactly. Everything about how he's using GmSc here is retarded, including the arbitrary usage of sample sizes.

You want to laugh this morning: Pippen has never played in a 4 game finals series. The Bulls DID however sweep the defending champs in 4 in the ECF in 91. Pippen's GmSc? 20.2. Higher than "Horry's peak".

[Phoenix]

You want to laugh this morning: Pippen has never played in a 4 game finals series. The Bulls DID however sweep the defending champs in 4 in the ECF in 91. Pippen's GmSc? 20.2. Higher than "Horry's peak".

Yup, I mentioned that in post# 42. He didn't respond to that point, and won't, because then he'd have to downplay the Pistons. He's creating perpetual 'rock and hard place' scenarios for himself.

Here's Horry's 95 finals points/rebounds/assists numbers vs Orlando:

Game 1: 19/8/3 7/18 39%
Game 2: 11/10/3 4/10 40%
Game 3: 20/9/4 6/11 55%
Game 4:21/13/5 6/14 43%

These are the numbers 3ball is claiming Pippen is incapable of producing.

Pippen game 3 vs Detroit 91: 26/10/4 10/16 63%
Pippen game 5 vs Lakers 91: 32/13/ 7 10/22 46%
Pippen game 5 vs Portland 92: 24/11/9 8/15 53%
Pippen game 6 vs Phoenix 93: 23/12/5 10/22 46%

Bear in mind that Horry's overall numbers for that playoff run: 13/7/4 45%. 'Peak' Robert Horry. But yes, let's use the 4 game sample size in which one great game can make the averages more that what they really are. Hell, if you have over a 4 game sweep a 30 point game, a 15 point game, a 12 point game, and a 14 point game. that's an 18ppg average with one game holding up 3 otherwise average scoring outputs.

Dude's an outright clown :oldlol:

[3ba11]

This is a 4 game sample that you're discussing.


It's actually true...

In the Finals, Pippen's boxscore was never as productive as Horry's 18/10/3/3/2 with solid true shooting in 95'

Gamescore confirms that based on a great sample size (6 for 6)

Pippen could've just averaged 25+ like AD, Wade, or Kyrie and that's normally enough to get a 19.0 gamescore.. But Pippen couldn't do that because he's the only sidekick that wasn't a go-to player and elite-scorer.. So he usually failed his 2nd option scoring role with a weak combination of scoring/efficiency.. Consequently, he's the only guy that failed to reach Horry-level over a meaningful sample size (6 of 6)

[SouBeachTalents]

More gamescores

1995 Horry: 19
2012 Wade: 16.4
2013 Wade: 14.9
2016 Kyrie: 19.1

2 titles with a guy significantly worse than '95 Horry, beating a 73 win team with a '95 Horry level player.

[3ba11]

More gamescores

1995 Horry: 19
2012 Wade: 16.4
2013 Wade: 14.9
2016 Kyrie: 19.1

2 titles with a guy significantly worse than '95 Horry, beating a 73 win team with a '95 Horry level player.


Wade, Kyrie and AD all had Finals that exceeded Horry's 19.0 gamescore from the 95' Finals

So we know they can play better than Horry

Pippen is the only guy that can't play better than Horry.. Imagine winning 6 Finals with a sidekick that can't match 95' Horry

[ShawkFactory]

Wade, Kyrie and AD all had Finals that exceeded Horry

So we know they can play better than Horry

Pippen is the only guy that can't play better than Horry.. Imagine winning 6 Finals with a sidekick that can't match 95' Horry

If going by finals gamescore...do we want to list all of the people who can't play better than Lebron?

[Phoenix]

It's actually true...

In the Finals, Pippen's boxscore was never as productive as Horry's 18/10/3/3/2 with solid true shooting in 95'

Gamescore confirms that based on a great sample size (6 for 6)

Pippen could've just averaged 25+ like AD, Wade, or Kyrie and that's normally enough to get a 19.0 gamescore.. But Pippen couldn't do that because he's the only sidekick that wasn't a go-to player and elite-scorer.. So he usually failed his 2nd option scoring role with a weak combination of scoring/efficiency.. Consequently, he's the only guy that failed to reach Horry-level over a meaningful sample size (6 of 6)

The problem with your sample size argument is that you're pretty much talking about a 4 game sample. I've provided the numbers above, ignore them as your agenda dictates they do, but nothing Horry dropped in that series in terms of game to game statlines is anything beyond what Pippen was capable of, which I again posted and you again ignore. Just as you ignore that Pippen dropped a 20 GmSc on the Pistons enroute to the 1991 title, something you won't touch with a 10 foot pole because you'd have to downplay the Pistons to do so.

The TS% argument is also sleight of hand because you can hide a mediocre field goal percentage in it. Horry scored 18ppg on 43%, numbers that Pippen exceeded multiple times over his playoff career. Horry himself was not a 'go to' scorer averaging 13ppg in the 95 playoffs. The two lead scorers were Hakeem and Drexler. Everyone else that run INCLUDING Horry were supplementary. You're full of shit.

[3ba11]

If going by finals gamescore...do we want to list all of the people who can't play better than Lebron?


Nah.. we're talking about how Lebron has 4 rings with sidekicks that could reach Horry-level, while MJ won 6 with sidekicks that couldn't

[SouBeachTalents]

Wade, Kyrie and AD all had Finals that exceeded Horry's 19.0 gamescore from the 95' Finals

So we know they can play better than Horry

Pippen is the only guy that can't play better than Horry.. Imagine winning 6 Finals with a sidekick that can't match 95' Horry
Kyrie's 2016 gamescore, as shown above, was equal to Horry's, and his 2017 gamescore was worse. So seems like Kyrie was unable to prove he can play better than Robert Horry.


If going by finals gamescore...do we want to list all of the people who can't play better than Lebron?
Uh oh. Most notably, virtually his entire top 10 :lol Same with Shaq, Kareem & Magic who are also left off his top 10. Hell, Durant would probably top all but 3 players.

[Phoenix]

Wade, Kyrie and AD all had Finals that exceeded Horry's 19.0 gamescore from the 95' Finals

So we know they can play better than Horry

Pippen is the only guy that can't play better than Horry.. Imagine winning 6 Finals with a sidekick that can't match 95' Horry

Except he did, against the Pistons in the 91 conference finals amongst other series.

[ShawkFactory]

Nah.. we're talking about how Lebron has 4 rings with sidekicks that could reach Horry-level, while MJ won 6 with sidekicks that couldn't

Nah...we're actually talking about finals gamescore.

[3ba11]

Kyrie's 2016 gamescore, as shown above, was equal to Horry's, and his 2017 gamescore was worse. So seems like Kyrie was unable to prove he can play better than Robert Horry.


Uh oh. Most notably, virtually his entire top 10 :lol Same with Shaq, Kareem & Magic who are also left off his top 10. Hell, Durant would probably top all but 3 players.


Kyrie's 19.1 exceeded Horry's 19.0

So we know that Kyrie can reach Horry-level - only Pippen can't

SUMMARY - Lebron has 4 rings with sidekicks that could reach Horry-level, while MJ won 6 with sidekicks that couldn't

[Phoenix]

If going by finals gamescore...do we want to list all of the people who can't play better than Lebron?

I'm glad you made that point, because I haven't even bothered to look up that Lebron has some GmScs higher than MJs in the finals. We know that happened, and we know 3ball will excuse that away.

[Phoenix]

Kyrie's 19.1 exceeded Horry's 19.0

So we know that Kyrie can reach Horry-level - only Pippen can't

SUMMARY - Lebron has 4 rings with sidekicks that could reach Horry-level, while MJ won 6 with sidekicks that couldn't

Pippen 20.2 against Detroit. Now shit on Detroit...you won't, and we know why.

[SouBeachTalents]

How about we compare Shaq's gamescores, a player he has outside the top 10, to Kobe's, a guy he has 2nd.

[ShawkFactory]

How about we compare Shaq's gamescores, a player he has outside the top 10, to Kobe's, a guy he has 2nd.

Kobe never played better than Shaq or Lebron.

[3ba11]

I'm glad you made that point, because I haven't even bothered to look up that Lebron has some GmScs higher than MJs in the finals. We know that happened, and we know 3ball will excuse that away.


Jordan rules gamescore:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/game_score.html


In the Finals, Lebron and Jordan are tied because both peaked at 29.6 in the 93' and 16' Finals.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sportingnews.com/ca/amp/nba/news/nba-finals-2021-game-score-ranks-giannis-antetokounmpos-series-as-best-in-nba-history/s7ajeyk8t7kv17oo466cejg84

[ShawkFactory]

Jordan rules gamescore:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/game_score.html


In the Finals, Lebron and Jordan are tied because both peaked at 29.6 in the 93' and 16' Finals.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sportingnews.com/ca/amp/nba/news/nba-finals-2021-game-score-ranks-giannis-antetokounmpos-series-as-best-in-nba-history/s7ajeyk8t7kv17oo466cejg84

Which means Lebron is capable of playing as well as Jordan.

[3ba11]

Which means Lebron is capable of playing as well as Jordan.


Only by "pippen'ing" his way to high gamescore (hustle stats)

Lebron can't get high gamescore the alpha way (dominant scoring against maximum defensive attention, aka carrying scoring load)

[Phoenix]

How about we compare Shaq's gamescores, a player he has outside the top 10, to Kobe's, a guy he has 2nd.

How about we compare Kawhi's, a player inside his top 10, against Lebrons? Lebron out of 10 finals has 5 of them higher than Kawhi's 2019, and out of his four titles two of them are higher than Kawhis( 2016 and 2020). And that's taking into account that in both series, Lebron had what 3ball would call 'equal scoring partners' in Kyrie and AD, yet still managed to out-GmSc Kawhit in each situation.

[Phoenix]

Jordan rules gamescore:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/game_score.html


In the Finals, Lebron and Jordan are tied because both peaked at 29.6 in the 93' and 16' Finals.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sportingnews.com/ca/amp/nba/news/nba-finals-2021-game-score-ranks-giannis-antetokounmpos-series-as-best-in-nba-history/s7ajeyk8t7kv17oo466cejg84

Scottie 91 ECFs vs Detroit: 20.2. You're very selective in what you respond to.

[ShawkFactory]

Only by "pippen'ing" his way to high gamescore (hustle stats)

Lebron can't get high gamescore the alpha way (dominant scoring against maximum defensive attention, aka carrying scoring load)

:facepalm

[Phoenix]

Only by "pippen'ing" his way to high gamescore (hustle stats)

Lebron can't get high gamescore the alpha way (dominant scoring against maximum defensive attention, aka carrying scoring load)

Oh ok. So Lebron dropping 30/11/9 on the 2016 Cavs is too 'beta' because Kyrie was there to contribute 27ppg and little else? 30ppg on 49% shooting is better because he had another scorer on his team? You very clearly create an agenda 'this player needs to dominate with this much ppg while doing X with teammates who can't do Y'. There are multiple paths to being GOAT that existed before MJ came on the scene,and multiple paths after. None of them, fortunately, are determined by you.

[SouBeachTalents]

Only by "pippen'ing" his way to high gamescore (hustle stats)

Lebron can't get high gamescore the alpha way (dominant scoring against maximum defensive attention, aka carrying scoring load)
Yeah bro, fck leading the Finals in every statistical category, that's beta. Only ppgz is alpha.

And again, Shaq did what you described in 3 Finals, over the guy you rank 2nd all time, and he isn't in your top 10.

[3ba11]

How about we compare Kawhi's, a player inside his top 10, against Lebrons? Lebron out of 10 finals has 5 of them higher than Kawhi's than, and out of his four titles two of them are higher than Kawhis( 2016 and 2020). And that's taking into account that in both series, Lebron had what 3ball would call 'equal scoring partners' in Kyrie and AD, yet still managed to out-GmSc Kawhit in each situation.


Gamescore works best for secondary and tertiary players that are tasked with role player duties, like sidekicks or Pippen and Horry - gamescore captures the role player stuff

Accordingly, gamescore doesn't work well for evaluating 1st options whose primary responsibility is scoring and possibly defeating maximum defensive attention (if they lack equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention)

[Phoenix]

Yeah bro, fck leading the Finals in every statistical category, that's beta. Only ppgz is alpha.

And again, Shaq did what you described in 3 Finals, over the guy you rank 2nd all time, and he isn't in your top 10.

It's a simple way for him to downplay other stat contributions. Basically for 3ball, someone dropping 30/10/10 with a partner scoring 27( Lebron and Kyrie in 2016)? Beta. Someone dropping 35/6/6 with a partner dropping 21( first 3peat Pippen)? Alpha as fukk. There's only one kind of alpha, and 3ball exists to determine these things for the rest of us.

[Phoenix]

Gamescore works best for secondary and tertiary players that are tasked with role player duties, like sidekicks or Pippen and Horry - gamescore captures the role player stuff

Accordingly, gamescore doesn't work well for evaluating 1st options whose primary responsibility is scoring and possibly defeating maximum defensive attention (if they lack equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention)

No it doesn't. Another way to sleight of hand away someone who scores high and contributes less in other areas over someone who can also score high( if not quite as high) and contribute more in other areas. The problem is Lebron can drop 30 while doing double digit rebounds and assists. So he checks the boxes for scoring and for the bullshit 'hustle and defense' stats....and this fukks with you.

[ShawkFactory]

Gamescore works best for secondary and tertiary players that are tasked with role player duties, like sidekicks or Pippen and Horry - gamescore captures the role player stuff

Accordingly, gamescore doesn't work well for evaluating 1st options whose primary responsibility is scoring and possibly defeating maximum defensive attention (if they lack equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention)

Well isn't THAT convenient for you :lol

[Phoenix]

Anyways, 3ball would love to have us all spending our Friday afternoons entertaining his crap. He's had enough attention from me for the time being....over tomorrow morning's cup of coffee I'll be along to bitch-slap whatever other bullshit he has to say.

https://images.dailykos.com/images/610672/large/chester_and_spike.gif?1541956017

Threadcliffs

Scottie Pippen vs defending champion Detroit 91: 20.2 GmSc. Higher than 'peak:oldlol:' Horry, and 3ball won't touch that one.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1991-nba-eastern-conference-finals-pistons-vs-bulls.html

That's the historical record.

[3ba11]

It's a simple way for him to downplay other stat contributions. Basically for 3ball, someone dropping 30/10/10 with a partner scoring 27( Lebron and Kyrie in 2016)? Beta. Someone dropping 35/6/6 with a partner dropping 21( first 3peat Pippen)? Alpha as fukk. There's only one kind of alpha, and 3ball exists to determine these things for the rest of us.


^^^ and it's defeating maximum defensive attention

Who cares what a player produces when he has equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention and therefore isn't facing maximum defensive attention!.. amirite?

I needed to see Lebron average 30 against the 07' Spurs or the 08/10 Celtics or shoot well against the 15' Warriors - he faced maximum defensive attention in those series (carried scoring load) AND IT SHOWED - his ppg, efficiency and clutch-time stats suffered against maximum defensive attention..

He never actually defeated maximum defensive attention in the Finals (never carried scoring load) and never carried bed-wetting teammates over a top 5 SRS opponent.

Lebron can't beat good teams with bed-wetting teammates because his high scoring levels are too ball-dominant to beat good teams.. He can only beat Finals teams with near-equal-scoring partners because his own high scoring levels are too ball-dominant.. He lacks elite jumpshooting skill to promotes ball movement and a winning brand at high scoring levels.

[NBAGOAT]

^^^ and it's defeating maximum defensive attention

Who cares what a player produces when he has equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention and therefore isn't facing maximum defensive attention!.. amirite?

I needed to see Lebron average 30 against the 07' Spurs or the 08/10 Celtics or shoot well against the 15' Warriors - he faced maximum defensive attention in those series (carried scoring load) AND IT SHOWED - his ppg, efficiency and clutch-time stats suffered against maximum defensive attention..

He never actually defeated maximum defensive attention in the Finals (never carried scoring load) and never carried bed-wetting teammates over a top 5 SRS opponent.

Lebron can't beat good teams with bed-wetting teammates because his high scoring levels are too ball-dominant to beat good teams.. He can only beat Finals teams with near-equal-scoring partners because his own high scoring levels are too ball-dominant.. He lacks elite jumpshooting skill to promotes ball movement and a winning brand at high scoring levels.

Yea I was waiting for you to say this lol. You didn’t watch so you have no idea how bad wade was by the 13 playoffs because of his knees.

2013 Heat ORtg with LeBron on court (960 minutes): 109.9
2013 Heat ORtg with LeBron and Wade on court (678 minutes): 105.0
2013 Heat ORtg with LeBron on, Wade off (282 minutes): 121.8

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bucks with LeBron on court 115.1
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bucks with LeBron On, Wade off: 116.8

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bulls with LeBron on court: 110.1
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bulls with LeBron on court, Wade off: 118.2

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Pacers with LeBron ON court: 110.6
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Pacers with LeBron on court, Wade off: 121.2

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Spurs with LeBron on court: 106.7
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Spurs with LeBron on court, Wade off: 131.3.

Wades raw numbers are also not good. He put up 15/4 on 50ts% vs Indiana while lebron put up 29/5 on 60ts%. 20/5 in the finals is better but also on 50ts% and by the above numbers, not helping the team. Btw spurs are 3rd in srs. Pacers were 1st in defense with a 99.8 drtg, basically 90s knicks esque, spurs not far behind a 101.6 drtg.

When bron was on the court with no wade heat put up a +22 and +30 relative to defensive strength respectively on 2/3 best defenses in the league. Even going by box score numbers 3/4
of the heats top guys put up 50ts% in each series yet the heat were a +12 vs Indiana and +7 vs sa solely off the back of lebron. This is the definition of beating maximum attention and not only carrying bet wetting teammates but having them somehow play at an elite lvl.

[RRR3]

Yea I was waiting for you to say this lol. You didn’t watch so you have no idea how bad wade was by the 13 playoffs because of his knees.

2013 Heat ORtg with LeBron on court (960 minutes): 109.9
2013 Heat ORtg with LeBron and Wade on court (678 minutes): 105.0
2013 Heat ORtg with LeBron on, Wade off (282 minutes): 121.8

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bucks with LeBron on court 115.1
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bucks with LeBron On, Wade off: 116.8

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bulls with LeBron on court: 110.1
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bulls with LeBron on court, Wade off: 118.2

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Pacers with LeBron ON court: 110.6
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Pacers with LeBron on court, Wade off: 121.2

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Spurs with LeBron on court: 106.7
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Spurs with LeBron on court, Wade off: 131.3.

Wades raw numbers are also not good. He put up 15/4 on 50ts% vs Indiana while lebron put up 29/5 on 60ts%. 20/5 in the finals is better but also on 50ts% and by the above numbers, not helping the team. Btw spurs are 3rd in srs. Pacers were 1st in defense with a 99.8 drtg, basically 90s knicks esque, spurs not far behind a 101.6 drtg.

When bron was on the court with no wade heat put up a +22 and +30 relative to defensive strength respectively on 2/3 best defenses in the league. Even going by box score numbers 3/4
of the heats top guys put up 50ts% in each series yet the heat were a +12 vs Indiana and +7 vs sa solely off the back of lebron. This is the definition of beating maximum attention and not only carrying bet wetting teammates but having them somehow play at an elite lvl.
He is incapable of conceding a point even if you literally prove him wrong. He will move the goalposts and spew bullshit again because he thinks conceding anything to your opponent in a debate, even if it’s a literal fact that’s been proven to you, is weakness. Downright pathological.

[NBAGOAT]

He is incapable of conceding a point even if you literally prove him wrong. He will move the goalposts and spew bullshit again because he thinks conceding anything to your opponent in a debate, even if it’s a literal fact that’s been proven to you, is weakness. Downright pathological.

Doesn’t matter I kind of just wanted to share this without making a thread. Forgot and didn’t quite realize how broken down wade was by the end of the 13 playoffs. A 121 and 131 on pacers and spurs is comical especially with how mediocre to bad wade/bosh/Allen/chalmers were

[NBAGOAT]

Yea I was waiting for you to say this lol. You didn’t watch so you have no idea how bad wade was by the 13 playoffs because of his knees.

2013 Heat ORtg with LeBron on court (960 minutes): 109.9
2013 Heat ORtg with LeBron and Wade on court (678 minutes): 105.0
2013 Heat ORtg with LeBron on, Wade off (282 minutes): 121.8

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bucks with LeBron on court 115.1
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bucks with LeBron On, Wade off: 116.8

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bulls with LeBron on court: 110.1
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bulls with LeBron on court, Wade off: 118.2

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Pacers with LeBron ON court: 110.6
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Pacers with LeBron on court, Wade off: 121.2

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Spurs with LeBron on court: 106.7
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Spurs with LeBron on court, Wade off: 131.3.

Wades raw numbers are also not good. He put up 15/4 on 50ts% vs Indiana while lebron put up 29/5 on 60ts%. 20/5 in the finals is better but also on 50ts% and by the above numbers, not helping the team. Btw spurs are 3rd in srs. Pacers were 1st in defense with a 99.8 drtg, basically 90s knicks esque, spurs not far behind a 101.6 drtg.

When bron was on the court with no wade heat put up a +22 and +30 relative to defensive strength respectively on 2/3 best defenses in the league. Even going by box score numbers 3/4
of the heats top guys put up 50ts% in each series yet the heat were a +12 vs Indiana and +7 vs sa solely off the back of lebron. This is the definition of beating maximum attention and not only carrying bet wetting teammates but having them somehow play at an elite lvl.

Looking for a retort 3ball

[Phoenix]

Well done NBAGoat. As promised I'm back on cup #1, I see 3ball retorted with some bullshit that I stopped reading after the first sentence,and you slapped him down with your usual neutral takes. Well done :cheers:

3ball is everyone's bitch.

[Phoenix]

He is incapable of conceding a point even if you literally prove him wrong. He will move the goalposts and spew bullshit again because he thinks conceding anything to your opponent in a debate, even if it’s a literal fact that’s been proven to you, is weakness. Downright pathological.

Indeed. The moment I showed that Pippen has the 'GmSc' advantage over the majority of 2nd options he faced in the 90s, he switched to a 'GmSc is assited by hustle and defense' argument. So when I look at Horrys 95 finals stats and see he averaged 10 rebounds, 3 steals and 2 blocks, 'hustle and defense' stats, he then proceeds to continue arguing that 'Pippen couldn't play at peak Horry level' in spite of the fact that I proved that Horry's GmSc was mostly attibutted to the same 'hustle and defense' argument. His scoring for that series was 18ppg on 43%, note that he crucifies Scottie for the series when he dropped those kinds of offensive numbers. Horry's high scoring game in the 95 finals was 21 points......Pippen has AVERAGED that for a few seasons and 3ball rails him. His 'sample size' argument is laughable because the '95 finals Horry' body of work is 4 games. You can have a great game, and 3 average ones and end up with great stats over that small a sample.

He's too committed to his anti-Pippen narrative to ever concede literall factual information being presented. He'll twist, he'll spin, he'll deflect, he'll avoid. Note I bring up that Scottie has a 20 GmSc against Detroit in 91, higher than 'peak Horry' 95 finals....mentioned it several times.....he's never responded and won't because then he'd have to slap down the 91 Pistons. Child's play, really....

[Phoenix]

^^^ and it's defeating maximum defensive attention

Who cares what a player produces when he has equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention and therefore isn't facing maximum defensive attention!.. amirite?

I needed to see Lebron average 30 against the 07' Spurs or the 08/10 Celtics or shoot well against the 15' Warriors - he faced maximum defensive attention in those series (carried scoring load) AND IT SHOWED - his ppg, efficiency and clutch-time stats suffered against maximum defensive attention..

He never actually defeated maximum defensive attention in the Finals (never carried scoring load) and never carried bed-wetting teammates over a top 5 SRS opponent.

Lebron can't beat good teams with bed-wetting teammates because his high scoring levels are too ball-dominant to beat good teams.. He can only beat Finals teams with near-equal-scoring partners because his own high scoring levels are too ball-dominant.. He lacks elite jumpshooting skill to promotes ball movement and a winning brand at high scoring levels.

No you aren't right. That's YOUR arbitrary definition of what the term alpha means in this context and as I already said, YOU don't get to define that.

[NBAGOAT]

Well done NBAGoat. As promised I'm back on cup #1, I see 3ball retorted with some bullshit that I stopped reading after the first sentence,and you slapped him down with your usual neutral takes. Well done :cheers:

3ball is everyone's bitch.

Naw this is closer to lebron propaganda lol. no shame in saying I stole it from someone smarter with more time on realgm. Unlike 3balls propaganda however, it’s quite well researched and presented. Why he’s gone radio silent for the whole day

[RRR3]

Naw this is closer to lebron propaganda lol. no shame in saying I stole it from someone smarter with more time on realgm. Unlike 3balls propaganda however, it’s quite well researched and presented. Why he’s gone radio silent for the whole day
He’s just gonna copy and paste from his files about the 2013 finals, regardless of whether it addresses anything you said.

[8Ball]

Yea I was waiting for you to say this lol. You didn’t watch so you have no idea how bad wade was by the 13 playoffs because of his knees.

2013 Heat ORtg with LeBron on court (960 minutes): 109.9
2013 Heat ORtg with LeBron and Wade on court (678 minutes): 105.0
2013 Heat ORtg with LeBron on, Wade off (282 minutes): 121.8

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bucks with LeBron on court 115.1
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bucks with LeBron On, Wade off: 116.8

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bulls with LeBron on court: 110.1
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bulls with LeBron on court, Wade off: 118.2

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Pacers with LeBron ON court: 110.6
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Pacers with LeBron on court, Wade off: 121.2

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Spurs with LeBron on court: 106.7
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Spurs with LeBron on court, Wade off: 131.3.

Wades raw numbers are also not good. He put up 15/4 on 50ts% vs Indiana while lebron put up 29/5 on 60ts%. 20/5 in the finals is better but also on 50ts% and by the above numbers, not helping the team. Btw spurs are 3rd in srs. Pacers were 1st in defense with a 99.8 drtg, basically 90s knicks esque, spurs not far behind a 101.6 drtg.

When bron was on the court with no wade heat put up a +22 and +30 relative to defensive strength respectively on 2/3 best defenses in the league. Even going by box score numbers 3/4
of the heats top guys put up 50ts% in each series yet the heat were a +12 vs Indiana and +7 vs sa solely off the back of lebron. This is the definition of beating maximum attention and not only carrying bet wetting teammates but having them somehow play at an elite lvl.

Its over.

Nbagoat from the top rope slam.

[3ba11]

Looking for a retort 3ball


You just proved statistically that Lebron lacks the skill or IQ to fit with Wade...

The Spurs exploited this, as the article showed

And 1-star teams were enough to win the East... So Lebron's super-team wasn't necessary against the East, but Wade was needed against the West - Wade was near-equal scoring partner to Lebron in the 13' Finals so Lebron didn't have to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load in Finals).. Lebron never had to defeat maximum defensive attention, which means that he had far more help

[Johnny32]

3+ attempts, eh.

nice 10 game over 8 years sample size.

[Full Court]

Oh ok. So Lebron dropping 30/11/9 on the 2016 Cavs is too 'beta' because Kyrie was there to contribute 27ppg and little else? 30ppg on 49% shooting is better because he had another scorer on his team? You very clearly create an agenda 'this player needs to dominate with this much ppg while doing X with teammates who can't do Y'. There are multiple paths to being GOAT that existed before MJ came on the scene,and multiple paths after. None of them, fortunately, are determined by you.

When the game is on the line, alphas take over and get it done.

Jordan = Alpha
Lebron = Beta

It's pretty simple.

[Phoenix]

When the game is on the line, alphas take over and get it done.

Jordan = Alpha
Lebron = Beta

It's pretty simple.

So Lebron was beta in game 6 2012 vs Celtics, 2013 game 7 vs Spurs, and 2016 game 7 vs Warriors. I don't give a shit about Lebron and I don't need to resort to that level of hyperbole.

[SouBeachTalents]

So Lebron was beta in game 6 2012 vs Celtics, 2013 game 7 vs Spurs, and 2016 game 7 vs Warriors. I don't give a shit about Lebron and I don't need to resort to that level of hyperbole.
He also has the most playoff GW's in history :lol Talk about a narrative not matching reality.

[sdot_thadon]

Repeat talking points? M'kay....

The 3ball GmSc conundrum

1990
vs Bucks Pippen 22.4 Ricky Pierce 15.7
vs Sixers Pippen 17.8 Hersey Hawkins 13.2
vs Pistons Pippen 12.2 Isiah Thomas 16.2

1991
vs Knicks Pippen 17.7 Kiki Vandeweghe 8.0
vs Sixers Pippen 20.8 Hersey Hawkins 16.9
vs Pistons Pippen 20.2 Aquirre 9.4 Vinnie 17.0 Dumars 7.1 Isiah 11.4 ( take your pick)
vs Lakers Pippen 17.5 Divac 16.1 Worthy 11.0 (take your pick)

1992
vs Heat Pippen 24.5 Steve Smith 15.1 ( First option Rony Seikaly 15.9)
vs Knicks Pippen 14.9 Xavier Mcdaniel 12.2
vs Cavs Pippen 17.4 Nance 16.1 Price 12.8 Daugherty 15.7 ( take your pick)
vs Blazers Pippen 18.1 Porter 12.5 ( fun fact: Drexler 18.4)

1993
vs Hawks Pippen 10.3 Kevin Willis 9.8
vs Cavs Pippen 15.2 Daughtery 13.6 (Nance 15.3, Price 9.9)
vs Knicks Pippen 15.7 Starks 8.4
vs Suns Pippen 15.6 Majerle 17.0

1995
vs Hornets Pippen 14.8 Johnson 15.8
vs Magic Pippen 15.8 Hardaway 15.4 ( Horace Grant 17.3)

1996
vs Heat Pippen 22.7( MJ 22.3) Hardaway 9.3 Mourning 8.5
vs Knicks Pippen 13.0 Starks 8.1
vs Magic Pippen 16.6 Hardaway 15.6
vs Sonics Pippen 13.4 Payton 14.4

1997
vs Bullets Pippen 12.0 Howard 14.0
vs Hawks Pippen 16.4 Steve Smith 8.1 Blaylock 15.7 Laettner 9.4 ( take your pick)
vs Heat Pippen 10.8 Mourning 8.9
vs Jazz Pippen 15.1 Stockton 14.9

1998
vs Nets Pippen 16.2 Kittles 10.4 Van Horn 7.0 Douglas 14.5 ( take your pick)
vs Hornets Pippen 16.9 Divac 11.0 Mason 10.7 ( first option Rice 13.6)
vs Pacers Pippen 13.0 Smits 10.9 ( first option Reggie Miller 11.6)
vs Jazz Pippen 13.0 Stockton 10.0

Now with that out of the way, we now turn our attention to 95 finals Robert Horry Gmsc vs Bulls finals opponents first options

95 Horry 19.0
96 Kemp 18.9
98 Malone 18.5
92 Drexler 18.4
97 Malone 16.8

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRr9wshLHZGTLX6Yg84JMdMXL2ESbR9r hspQA&usqp=CAU
"3ball Agenda": 95 finals Robert Horry played at a higher level than Pippen ever did because of GmSc, Pippen is the worst 2nd option

"Unintended consequence": That would also mean that 95 finals Horry played better than most of the Bulls finals first option opponents

"3ball moonwalking": 95 finals Horry having better GmSc than most of Bulls first option opponents doesn't count because of small sample size

"5 year old's retort": Pippen's GmSc over the majority of opposing 2nd options during the 90's Bulls run should count because of large sample size doe

"Conclusion"
https://image.shutterstock.com/image-photo/between-rock-hard-place-260nw-24293326.jpg

:roll:

You can wiggle around it till your little hearts content. The fact that Horry exceeded Drexler's GmSC at all IS THE POINT dumbass ( actually the point is using GmSc in the way you are is dumb period) but since you now wish to bring up that GmSc benefits 'hustlers and defenders' like Pippen...... Horry in that mythical 95 finals series scored 18ppg on 43% shooting. That's the kind of scoring you give Pippen shit for, meaning that Horry's high GmSc number for the series was mostly attributed to 'hustle' stats( he averaged 10 rebounds, 3 steals, 2 blocks in the 95 finals) and not elite scoring volume or efficiency. So just as you handwave Scottie's higher GmSc because of 'hustle and defense' stats, we can also do the same for Horry's 95 finals GmSc. Thanks for playing.

Also, why would Karl Malone's production be impacted by Jordan's defense? Is there some alternate reality you exist where he was the primary defender on Mailman? Was Kemp being defended by Jordan in your reality, instead of Rodman( and Kemp's GmSc edged higher than MJs that finals and not on account of 'hustle and defense' stats either)..

Whoops, hung yourself by your own arguments again. :oldlol:

Missed this one but Dayum, ashes.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

The amount of attention 3ball gets...is staggering.

You'd think people would know by now its a troll account. Guy isn't looking for serious discourse...hence the lack of consistency.

[3ba11]

Horry had higher gamescore than Pippen ever did because of hustle stats like defensive rebounds, steals and blocks.

Similarly, Pippen had competitive gamescores due to hustle stats like Horry, while other guys like Kyrie have high gamescore due to scoring and efficiency

Regardless, it's remarkable that ONLY PIPPEN failed to reach Horry-level in the Finals over a meaningful sample size (0/6)..It shows how Pippen was a secondary producer that never achieved elite stats or domination- he never reached peak-Horry level!!