Jason Kidd vs. Dwight Howard: Who had the better career and peak?

[Im Still Ballin]

Jason Kidd:


- 1x NBA Champion (2011)
- 10x NBA All-Star
- 5x All-NBA 1st Team
- 1x All-NBA 2nd Team
- 4x All-NBA Defensive 1st Team
- 5x All-NBA Defensive 2nd Team

MVP Voting:


1994-95 NBA 0.007 (13)
1997-98 NBA 0.004 (13)
1998-99 NBA 0.135 (5)
1999-00 NBA 0.021 (11)
2000-01 NBA 0.015 (8)
2001-02 NBA 0.712 (2)
2002-03 NBA 0.026 (9)
2003-04 NBA 0.014 (8)

Dwight Howard:


- 1x NBA Champion (2020)
- 3x NBA DPOY
- 8x NBA All-Star
- 5x All-NBA 1st Team
- 1x All-NBA 2nd Team
- 2x All-NBA 3rd Team
- 4x All-NBA Defensive 1st Team
- 1x All-NBA Defensive 2nd Team

MVP Voting:


2007-08 NBA 0.048 (5)
2008-09 NBA 0.271 (4)
2009-10 NBA 0.389 (4)
2010-11 NBA 0.531 (2)
2011-12 NBA 0.011 (7)

[Kblaze8855]

From 09-2011 if you said Dwight was the best in the league the Kobe and Lebron contingents would be upset but they heard it often enough to have arguments ready against it.

He became a joke to a lot of people for a lot of reasons but he was absolutely in the best player argument. Kidd was more in the mvp argument which is similar but not quite a same.

Id rather have Kidd I think but I can’t pretend Dwight being a bit of a clown doesn’t factor in. They were similar levels of effective Id say.

[Akeem34TheDream]

I'd rather have Dwite. I think he had a better peak but Kidd had a longer prime.

[HylianNightmare]

Dwight ez

[Full Court]

Peak for peak, I think Howard edges him out.

[Round Mound]

I agree with the peak part. But i must mention that Jason Kidd was my favorite 90's drafted player. So some love to Jason.

[post]

kidd

[John8204]

Jason Kidd, Howard was great for 5 seasons but Kidd was solid top PG for 15 season. Kidd is top ten in his position, Dwight isn't even top 20 at C.

[ImKobe]

I'd rather have peak Kidd than Dwight. It's easier to build around Jason in most eras tbh. Dwight had all those big wings, playmakers & great shooters and still wasn't good enough to win a title. I think Kidd is a better fit on most teams and could get more out of his guys, especially in the modern NBA. You don't have to worry about him being a liability at the FT line at the end of games, and he could space the floor and he was a better locker room leader and a great defender in his own right.

[HylianNightmare]

I'd rather have peak Kidd than Dwight. It's easier to build around Jason in most eras tbh. Dwight had all those big wings, playmakers & great shooters and still wasn't good enough to win a title. I think Kidd is a better fit on most teams and could get more out of his guys, especially in the modern NBA. You don't have to worry about him being a liability at the FT line at the end of games, and he could space the floor and he was a better locker room leader and a great defender in his own right.

The best help prime Dwight ever had was one of the following

Prime Jameer Nelson
End of prime Rashard Lewis
Prime hedo
End of prime Jason Richardson
Post prime Vince carter

Not exactly a winning 2nd option anywhere there

[Full Court]

Jason Kidd, Howard was great for 5 seasons but Kidd was solid top PG for 15 season. Kidd is top ten in his position, Dwight isn't even top 20 at C.

There's a lot more competition at center though.

[ImKobe]

The best help prime Dwight ever had was one of the following

Prime Jameer Nelson
End of prime Rashard Lewis
Prime hedo
End of prime Jason Richardson
Post prime Vince carter

Not exactly a winning 2nd option anywhere there

Those guys were great in the Playoffs though. Lewis was still a monster in Orlando, especially in that '09 run. Jameer was injured so I guess you could make that excuse as he was an All-Star, but Dwight had more help offensively while the Nets basically relied on their elite defense as they were below-average on offense in their 2 Finals runs with Kidd carrying the #1 scoring load as they didn't have a more consistent option at the time. Kidd didn't have a consistent 3PT shot back then though so that's what held his numbers back, and the Nets were a mediocre 3PT shooting team at the time while Dwight's teams were among the best during his prime as Lewis, Hedo & Jameer were all elite-tier as shooters for that era and you can put JJ Redick and Pietrus on that list in 2010 as well

[Phoenix]

Jason Kidd, Howard was great for 5 seasons but Kidd was solid top PG for 15 season. Kidd is top ten in his position, Dwight isn't even top 20 at C.

What's your top 20 list at center?

[Phoenix]

I'd rather have peak Kidd than Dwight. It's easier to build around Jason in most eras tbh. Dwight had all those big wings, playmakers & great shooters and still wasn't good enough to win a title. I think Kidd is a better fit on most teams and could get more out of his guys, especially in the modern NBA. You don't have to worry about him being a liability at the FT line at the end of games, and he could space the floor and he was a better locker room leader and a great defender in his own right.

Yeah but when he did have that, he got to the finals and lost to the Lakers/Kobe. Are you saying he should have won that title? His career started in a league where a center with his skillset could anchor a contender, and halfway through his brand of center became a dinosaur. The back surgery at 27 didn't help either, though Dwight didn't exactly evolve his game to compensate for the loss of athleticism. I think it's a hard pick between the two, personally. But Kidd had the better front to back career, no question about that.

[ImKobe]

Yeah but when he did have that, he got to the finals and lost to the Lakers/Kobe. Are you saying he should have won that title? His career started in a league where a center with his skillset could anchor a contender, and halfway through his brand of center became a dinosaur. The back surgery at 27 didn't help either, though Dwight didn't exactly evolve his game to compensate for the loss of athleticism. I think it's a hard pick between the two, personally. But Kidd had the better front to back career, no question about that.

I think other players could have won a title in '09/'10 with the help he had around him, though it's not completely fair to put it all on him as that Vince trade probably ruined their chances to get back in 2010 as Carter fell off a cliff, but he wasn't a true superstar who could carry his team in big games in crunch time, he had the same limitations as Shaq but wasn't nearly as dominant offensively. Kidd wasn't an elite scorer either, but you'd want him with the ball in his hands at the end of a game as he'd make the right play and wasn't a liability in any real way, which is why I like Kidd more overall, but peak Dwight has the better numbers so it's tough to argue against that.

[Kblaze8855]

. Those guys were great in the Playoffs though. Lewis was still a monster in Orlando, especially in that '09 run.


Rashard Lewis wasn’t even a monster in Seattle. He was a monster like young Keith Vanhorn or something. 18-19 points in 42 minutes is a low bar for “monster” I’d say. He did what he was supposed to. Play the whole game shooting off Dwight sucking people into the paint but he wasn’t special when we talk about guys you’re supposed to win a title with.

[John8204]

What's your top 20 list at center?

1. Wilt, 2. Kareem, 3. Russell, 4. Mikan, 5. Moses, 6. Hakeem, 7. Shaq, 8. Robinson, 9. Thurmond, 10. Reed
11. Ewing, 12. Jokic, 13. McAdoo 14. Hayes, 15. Walton, 16.Gilmore, 17. Unseld, 18. Parish, 19. Embiid, 20. Mutombo

[ImKobe]

Rashard Lewis wasn’t even a monster in Seattle. He was a monster like young Keith Vanhorn or something. 18-19 points in 42 minutes is a low bar for “monster” I’d say. He did what he was supposed to. Play the whole game shooting off Dwight sucking people into the paint but he wasn’t special when we talk about guys you’re supposed to win a title with.

He was arguably the best volume 3PT shooter in the game at 6-9/6-10 as he took ~7 threes a game and shot ~41%. Mind you that he was doing this also in Seattle so it wasn't just that he played with Dwight. He averaged ~18 ppg in 36 mpg as a 3rd option in the RS but ended up being their 2nd option in the POs. If he could be the #2 option on a Finals team with Dwight, it's not a stretch to say that he could have won a title as the #2 on a better team or with a better lead dog, especially in an era where you didn't need two top 10-15 players in order to win the chip.

That Magic team was really good. Even with Jameer's injury, you could argue that Dwight had more help on offense than Kidd did during his prime.

[1987_Lakers]

I'd rather have peak Kidd than Dwight. It's easier to build around Jason in most eras tbh. Dwight had all those big wings, playmakers & great shooters and still wasn't good enough to win a title. I think Kidd is a better fit on most teams and could get more out of his guys, especially in the modern NBA. You don't have to worry about him being a liability at the FT line at the end of games, and he could space the floor and he was a better locker room leader and a great defender in his own right.
Why is this guy acting like Orlando was some sort of stacked team?

[Jasper]

Stan made Dwight ...
Dwight failed after he left.

Kidd - all day every day longevity and a true champion, not a coat tail rider.

[tpols]

Peak Orlando Dwight was like something in between Shaq and Giannis from a physical standpoint. Not as bulky as Shaq, but definitely stronger than Giannis. He used to require double and triple teams out of the post, dunked everything, and even developed a little 10 foot bank shot at one point. I think his peak was higher but Kidd obviously had a better prime as Dwight fell off quick from his Magic version.

[Kblaze8855]

He was arguably the best volume 3PT shooter in the game at 6-9/6-10 as he took ~7 threes a game and shot ~41%. Mind you that he was doing this also in Seattle so it wasn't just that he played with Dwight. He averaged ~18 ppg in 36 mpg as a 3rd option in the RS but ended up being their 2nd option in the POs. If he could be the #2 option on a Finals team with Dwight, it's not a stretch to say that he could have won a title as the #2 on a better team or with a better lead dog, especially in an era where you didn't need two top 10-15 players in order to win the chip.

That Magic team was really good. Even with Jameer's injury, you could argue that Dwight had more help on offense than Kidd did during his prime.


Rashard was “good enough” because Dwight hung 40 on the Cavs to get them to the finals:





https://youtu.be/p5P0OWcJNog




Rashard was a good player capable of good games and hot shooting.

What he wasn’t….is a monster.

He was the notch above Al Harrington and Michael Dickerson and below true stardom where Keith Vanhorn, Michael Finley, and Michael Porter Jr live. And Finley might really be too good for that group.

He was a generally average to poor defensive jump shooting tweener who fought off being a role player by the explosion of the 3 point era.

Effective and capable of 30 like a lot of people are. But he’s nobody you’re just supposed to win with because he’s there.

This is like when you were propping up the Memphis team Pau had listing names like having been heard of makes someone special.

Id probably take Hedo over Lewis from that team.

[GimmeThat]

Dwight didn't take enough paycut to stat pad playoff WS is all

[Phoenix]

I think other players could have won a title in '09/'10 with the help he had around him, though it's not completely fair to put it all on him as that Vince trade probably ruined their chances to get back in 2010 as Carter fell off a cliff, but he wasn't a true superstar who could carry his team in big games in crunch time, he had the same limitations as Shaq but wasn't nearly as dominant offensively. Kidd wasn't an elite scorer either, but you'd want him with the ball in his hands at the end of a game as he'd make the right play and wasn't a liability in any real way, which is why I like Kidd more overall, but peak Dwight has the better numbers so it's tough to argue against that.

If by other players you mean at the center position, who? If you mean other players, then who? The team was built around his skillset so which top level player are you swapping him with? He lost to the Celtics who had won the title 2 years prior, and took your team to 7. Remove those Celtics, who simply were a better team, and he's probably in the finals again.

I agree he had limits but I'm just not sure who you replace him with and do much better. I mean your top players in 2010 were ( in no particular order) Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Dirk, Durant, Dwight, Duncan.

[Phoenix]

1. Wilt, 2. Kareem, 3. Russell, 4. Mikan, 5. Moses, 6. Hakeem, 7. Shaq, 8. Robinson, 9. Thurmond, 10. Reed
11. Ewing, 12. Jokic, 13. McAdoo 14. Hayes, 15. Walton, 16.Gilmore, 17. Unseld, 18. Parish, 19. Embiid, 20. Mutombo

What's the case for Mutumbo over him? Or Parish? Walton's a tough one to argue, but a couple of MVP level years before becoming an injury prone role player is tough to rank.

[dankok8]

Tough to compare players at different positions but prime Dwight was a bit more impactful. Better career is Kidd no doubt though because Dwight had about 4-5 prime years in Orlando then declined significantly.

[bizil]

Career goes to J Kidd. Peak I think ACTUALLY could come down to what you need. It's hard to compare a 6'4 PG like Kidd to a physically dominant center like Howard. BOTH proved they could lead a team to the NBA Finals WITHOUT perennial All Star type of help on them. NEITHER were alpha dog level scorers. But they were so great in other areas they were always in that top 5-10 player mix in their best days.

[ShawkFactory]

Rashard was “good enough” because Dwight hung 40 on the Cavs to get them to the finals:





https://youtu.be/p5P0OWcJNog




Rashard was a good player capable of good games and hot shooting.

What he wasn’t….is a monster.

He was the notch above Al Harrington and Michael Dickerson and below true stardom where Keith Vanhorn, Michael Finley, and Michael Porter Jr live. And Finley might really be too good for that group.

He was a generally average to poor defensive jump shooting tweener who fought off being a role player by the explosion of the 3 point era.

Effective and capable of 30 like a lot of people are. But he’s nobody you’re just supposed to win with because he’s there.

This is like when you were propping up the Memphis team Pau had listing names like having been heard of makes someone special.

Id probably take Hedo over Lewis from that team.

I remember that. I think Bonzi Wells and Chucky Atkins made appearances :lol

[GimmeThat]

Career goes to J Kidd. Peak I think ACTUALLY could come down to what you need. It's hard to compare a 6'4 PG like Kidd to a physically dominant center like Howard. BOTH proved they could lead a team to the NBA Finals WITHOUT perennial All Star type of help on them. NEITHER were alpha dog level scorers. But they were so great in other areas they were always in that top 5-10 player mix in their best days.

Howard career regular season ORTG 111 DRTG 100 playoff ORTG 111 DRTG 101
Kidd career regular season ORTG 107 DRTG 102 playoff ORTG 105 DRTG 103

Howard's PER is 21.3/21.6
Kidd's PER 17.9/17.1

If that doesn't make it obvious of what one needs, more than happy to take these perspectives off of ya

[Im Still Ballin]

From 09-2011 if you said Dwight was the best in the league the Kobe and Lebron contingents would be upset but they heard it often enough to have arguments ready against it.

He became a joke to a lot of people for a lot of reasons but he was absolutely in the best player argument. Kidd was more in the mvp argument which is similar but not quite a same.

Id rather have Kidd I think but I can’t pretend Dwight being a bit of a clown doesn’t factor in. They were similar levels of effective Id say.

Example thread of the bolded from 2011:

How is LeBron James better than Dwight Howard (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?235492-How-is-LeBron-James-better-than-Dwight-Howard)

[GimmeThat]

From 09-2011 if you said Dwight was the best in the league the Kobe and Lebron contingents would be upset but they heard it often enough to have arguments ready against it.

He became a joke to a lot of people for a lot of reasons but he was absolutely in the best player argument. Kidd was more in the mvp argument which is similar but not quite a same.

Id rather have Kidd I think but I can’t pretend Dwight being a bit of a clown doesn’t factor in. They were similar levels of effective Id say.

when you factor in conferences, Howard still comes out on top for me.

[ShawkFactory]

when you factor in conferences, Howard still comes out on top for me.

Yea Kidd played most of his career in a far tougher conference..

[GimmeThat]

Yea Kidd played most of his career in a far tougher conference..

probably explains why he was traded during the season twice.

[ShawkFactory]

probably explains why he was traded during the season twice.

Yea that 98-08 east gauntlet killed him.

[GimmeThat]

Yea that 98-08 east gauntlet killed him.

guess he just couldn't be someone or somebody

[ShawkFactory]

guess he just couldn't be someone or somebody

You mean "whom"?

[GimmeThat]

You mean "whom"?

or surprises, being sandbagged

[John8204]

What's the case for Mutumbo over him? Or Parish? Walton's a tough one to argue, but a couple of MVP level years before becoming an injury prone role player is tough to rank.

It's very hard to rank Bill Walton because he is just such an outlier and a what if. Two MVP seasons and two championship where he was a major contributor in my eyes is enough to put him top 15 and rank him above other champions...Gilmore, Unseld, and Parish.

Seven centers won mutli-DPOY's...
Robinson, Mutombo, Eaton, Wallace, Mourning, Howard, Gobert

Looking at that list David Robinson is clearly #1 he's a champion with an MVP after that it gets tricky. Dikembe got 4 of them with 3 different teams and he went to the finals with a fourth(though injured that year). To me the player closest to Dwight Howard is Alonzo Mourning. As for Parish 4 rings, 3 of which as a starter and managing to play 20+ and be healthy/productive for all those years. Also he's the only man to shut MJ up at practice and check his ego.

[Iverson3]

Dwight Howard

2009 Orlando magic would also beat the 2002 and 2003 New Jersey Nets