How do you rank Dirk, Barkley, KG and Malone all time?

[Yung D-Will]

All right, so in an attempt to get a broad view of how people rank these guys, I'm going to post this on several basketball discussion boards. After that I'll tally up the results, so I can get a real sense of the consensus.

So listed below are all 24 possible rankings for these 4 players. Pick a letter that corresponds with your ranking and leave an explanation.

The more parctipation the better.

A) Dirk>Malone>KG>Barkley
B) Dirk>Malone>Barkley>KG
C) Dirk>KG>Barkley>Malone
D)Dirk>KG>Malone>Barkley
E) Dirk>Barkley>KG>Malone
F) Dirk>Barkley>Malone>KG

G)Malone>Dirk>KG>Barkley
H)Malone>Dirk>Barkley>KG
I) Malone>Barkley>Dirk>KG
J) Malone>Barkley>KG>Dirk
K) Malone>KG>Dirk>Barkley
L) Malone>KG>Barkley>Dirk

M)KG>Malone>Dirk>Barkley
N) KG>Malone>Barkley>Dirk
O) KG>Barkley>Dirk>Malone
P) KG>Barkley>Malone>Dirk
Q) KG>Dirk>Malone>Barkley
R) KG>Dirk>Barkley>Malone

S) Barkley>Malone>Dirk>KG
T) Barkley>Malone>KG>Dirk
U) Barkley>Dirk>Malone>KG
V) Barkley>Dirk>KG>Malone
W)Barkley>KG>Dirk>Malone
X) Barkley>KG>Malone>Dirk

[Im Still Ballin]

I'll have to think about it. I do know this though: Kevin Durant is a part of that tier of players. His two rings don't elevate him above that group.

[Shooter]

Probably C

Dirk, KG, Barkley, Malone

Dirk is 6th all time in points and has a huge FMVP in 2011

That sets him apart from the rest.

KG is a 2-way player

Barkley peaks harder than anyone here

Malone had Stockton for 18 years and made 2 Finals

[FultzNationRISE]

Tbh I think theyre all close enough for any order to be argued. All have their strengths and weaknesses. Obviously for a team right now today youd likely want Dirk bc of the three point emphasis, but they were all studs relative in the era they played. Dirk and KG of course overlapped eras with Lebron, meaning they faced much tougher competition. So I’ll take them first, and then Barkley and Malone.

[post]

kg barkley malone dirk

a little bird told me

he could be wrong

[plowking]

Kevin Garnett seems to get the most passes for not achieving anything for the majority of his career pre Boston out of any player. Missing playoffs, underperforming in the playoffs, etc.

Yet we rank him over Barkley, Dirk and Malone who were all far more successful and consistent. Garnett was a stat filler who could do it all and a versatile defender. Bigger Scottie.

Barkley>Dirk>Malone>KG as players/impact on the court.

[DMAVS41]

Kevin Garnett seems to get the most passes for not achieving anything for the majority of his career pre Boston out of any player. Missing playoffs, underperforming in the playoffs, etc.

Yet we rank him over Barkley, Dirk and Malone who were all far more successful and consistent. Garnett was a stat filler who could do it all and a versatile defender. Bigger Scottie.

Barkley>Dirk>Malone>KG as players/impact on the court.

I understand your point, but what player in history is making noise in the playoffs with the help KG had in Minnesota?

And we can't pretend like 2004 didn't happen...when KG did 24/15/5 while playing historically good defense and got his team to the conference finals and honestly had a chance to win that series if Sam Cassell didn't get hurt.

KG is tough to rank because, imo, his stats might lean on to over-rate him a bit...I've seen him as high as 8th all-time...and I think that is wrong, but it also isn't fair to hold him to a winning standard with some of this teams.

I personally think Dirk and KG are the two best players in that group...and it is hard for me to ever give the nod to Barkley or Malone over Dirk given what Dirk proved in his career. Not just the title, but 11 straight seasons of 50 wins plus...consistent success with tons of roster turnover and different coaches...beating the Spurs at the height of their reign in 06...etc.

[Shooter]

I understand your point, but what player in history is making noise in the playoffs with the help KG had in Minnesota?

And we can't pretend like 2004 didn't happen...when KG did 24/15/5 while playing historically good defense and got his team to the conference finals and honestly had a chance to win that series if Sam Cassell didn't get hurt.

KG is tough to rank because, imo, his stats might lean on to over-rate him a bit...I've seen him as high as 8th all-time...and I think that is wrong, but it also isn't fair to hold him to a winning standard with some of this teams.

I personally think Dirk and KG are the two best players in that group...and it is hard for me to ever give the nod to Barkley or Malone over Dirk given what Dirk proved in his career. Not just the title, but 11 straight seasons of 50 wins plus...consistent success with tons of roster turnover and different coaches...beating the Spurs at the height of their reign in 06...etc.


Bingo.

Dirk > KG then comes Chuck and Karl.

I chose Chuck because of his amazing peaks at times. He has the highest game 7 Game Score among all top 30 players (LeBron has the #2 highest). Chuck also has a 56 point playoff game, which has only been done by three other players ever.

[BarberSchool]

U) Barkley>Dirk>Malone>KG
V) Barkley>Dirk>KG>Malone

Can’t decide between these two

[SouBeachTalents]

I know it says all-time, but in terms of what order I’d take them in

KG
Dirk
Barkley
Malone

[90sgoat]

U) Barkley>Dirk>Malone>KG
V) Barkley>Dirk>KG>Malone

Can’t decide between these two

Same.

I'm going with Barkley > Dirk > Malone > KG.

Barkley was a once in a lifetime, do it all, kind of player, that had absurd efficiency at the rim, maybe the best ever at finishing at the basket.

Dirk underperformed for much of his career, which wasn't just because of his teammates as many like to claim, but when he learned to play the post and be decent at defense, then he became an all time great offensive player.

Malone could have been above Dirk with just one ring, but he didn't, and he did drop off noticeably in the playoffs, though very far from a choker. He was good at almost everything, but just didn't have that unstoppable clutch postseason as Dirk had in 2011.

KG is the last for me, namely because he was passive on offense for much of his career, reminds me AD. He just wasn't clearly that guy on offense.

[Shooter]

kg barkley malone dirk

a little bird told me

he could be wrong

The only guy with a FMVP and 6th all time in points is last of the bunch? I think that's the only "wrong" putting Dirk last.

[post]

The only guy with a FMVP and 6th all time in points is last of the bunch? I think that's the only "wrong" putting Dirk last.

it is what it is

or it isn't

[DMAVS41]

Same.

I'm going with Barkley > Dirk > Malone > KG.

Barkley was a once in a lifetime, do it all, kind of player, that had absurd efficiency at the rim, maybe the best ever at finishing at the basket.

Dirk underperformed for much of his career, which wasn't just because of his teammates as many like to claim, but when he learned to play the post and be decent at defense, then he became an all time great offensive player.

Malone could have been above Dirk with just one ring, but he didn't, and he did drop off noticeably in the playoffs, though very far from a choker. He was good at almost everything, but just didn't have that unstoppable clutch postseason as Dirk had in 2011.

KG is the last for me, namely because he was passive on offense for much of his career, reminds me AD. He just wasn't clearly that guy on offense.

Based on what standard?

In his first ever playoff series his team upset the Jazz as the best player on the team...I guess you could say he underperformed by not being as good as Duncan in 01, but those standards seem absurdly high.

The next year he was the best player on the floor in a playoff series against near peak KG.

The next year he made the conference finals with two huge game 7's...and then got hurt in the WCF.

Upset the Spurs in 06 with yet another legendary game 7.

Won the title in 11...with one of the worst supporting casts and some of the toughest competition in history.

All with only one teammate to ever make an all-nba team in his entire career....11 straight 50 plus win seasons...part of some of the best offenses of all-time when Nash was there. I actually don't know the answer, but I'd like to know what player has had more success for such a prolonged period only playing with one teammate to make an all-nba team for 2 years in their entire career.

Stockton probably made it 10 plus times...and he was all-defense as well. On your standard...Malone underperformed much more given his circumstances. If Dirk had an all-nba 2nd guy from 05 through 11...he'd almost for sure had won 2 titles...probably 3...and potentially 4 depending on how good said player would be.

Had great longevity...prime of 26/10/3 on great efficiency in the playoffs.

Yea, it is underperforming if the standard is Lebron or Duncan or something...but not if the comp is the range of player he's in.

[tpols]

For their primes id say its Barkley > Dirk > KG > Malone.

But it's all super close.

[tpols]

People forget how mean Barkley was. He was basically 1b to Jordan's 1a in the early 90s.

[Shooter]

For their primes id say its Barkley > Dirk > KG > Malone.

But it's all super close.

I can agree with that if we're going peak prime. But for career it's Dirk

[Im Still Ballin]

Had the most first-place MVP votes in '89-'90 I believe. Being a top-five guy in that period of time was worth more than just about any period of time. The top-end talent was that good.

[tpols]

I can agree with that if we're going peak prime. But for career it's Dirk

Yea its crazy that out of these 4 supreme talents there's only 2 rings... with arguably the best guy having 0.

There's been so many lesser players who have won more when they were far worse players. Tony Parker and Chauncey Billups have rings and FMVPs. And they're like 5 notches below the current players being discussed level.

[BarberSchool]

People forget how mean Barkley was. He was basically 1b to Jordan's 1a in the early 90s.

Word. Niccas act like the other 3 ever beat Godzilla:


https://youtu.be/zYkR6iqgoDw


https://youtu.be/1oCF-QFuoYs

[FKAri]

V


For their primes id say its Barkley > Dirk > KG > Malone.

But it's all super close.

I actually... agree with tpols.

[BarberSchool]

Yea its crazy that out of these 4 supreme talents there's only 2 rings... with arguably the best guy having 0.

There's been so many lesser players who have won more when they were far worse players. Tony Parker and Chauncey Billups have rings and FMVPs. And they're like 5 notches below the current players being discussed level.
If 93 Jordan didn’t AVERAGE 41.7ppg on 58%FG in the finals, and Paxson didn’t hit that 3 in Phoenix ,Barkley would have a ring, and not just any ordinary ring, a ring from the most physical era in NBA history

[fsvr54]

Barkley/KG/Dirk/Malone

[And1AllDay]

kg
malone
charles
drik

[Phoenix]

Dirk and Barkley were the most talented offensive players and capable of doing the most with the least. The Mavs were always some level of threat/contender for the entire 2000's even with several roster/ coaching changes. I'm inclined to say he edges Barkley as a floor-raiser, but it's close. Dirk overall had the better career and the differences between them are pretty small regardless of who you prefer. KG is the most well-rounded, but needed the most offensive talent around him in order for his teams to be successful ( Minny 2004 and Boston 08-12). I think you could easier build around Dirk's skillset, as he always led top offensive teams, and surround him with good role players/defenders. That was basically the 2011 team in a nutshell. Barkley was a great floor raiser as well but was a malcontent at the end of his Philly run, and injuries neutered him slghtly after 1995, but he remained a top 10 player through 96 or 97.

I feel like the argument for Malone is rooted moreso in longevity and consistency than being actually better than the others. Barkley was considered better over the peak/prime of their careers, Dirk was indivdually a more capable offensive player even if the PPG numbers don't show it, and it's splitting hairs with KG. He also had, more than the others, a symbiotic relationship with Stockton for his entire career, and we have no way of knowing how effective he would have been ( in terms of team results) outside of that system. For that reason I'm inclined to place him last.

I don't feel like any order is especially insulting because all of them present unique cases. If pressed, I'd go Dirk/ Barkley/ KG/ Malone, but they're really all on the same tier in that 15-20 range regardless of how you choose to rank them.

[Round Mound]

Barkley
Malone
Dirk
Garnett

[BarberSchool]

U) Barkley>Dirk>Malone>KG
V) Barkley>Dirk>KG>Malone

Can’t decide between these two

After reading Plowking and others in this thread, I recalled how KG was never a go-to 4th quarter scorer, despite having many seasons above 20ppg.

And Malone, while dependent on a pick and roll PG, was still a much more DOMINANT scorer than KG ever was, and a more physically dominant post defender and rebounder than KG. Kg was so skinny, I bet my chest and waist are bigger than his (46” chest, 34” waist), and I’m just under 6’5” and 225. KG was so skinny, that his greatness on the defensive end was in help defense, and having quick enough feet to help on the perimeter. Most post players outweighed KG significantly, and could bully him in the paint. I could see some big guards today like LeBron or Luka bullying KG at the rim and giving him a dose of body so he couldn’t even plant yo elevate and attempt blocking their shots

So the correct rank for me is:

U) Barkley>Dirk>Malone>KG

[90sgoat]

As an aside, RealGM don't agree, they really dislike Barkley there.

[dankok8]

I won't really explain myself much because these debates have been beaten to death in other threads. I've argued for both Malone and KG over Dirk. Barkley is last IMO because his accomplishments are smallest and his dedication to winning can be questioned at times.

Anyways one thing in general makes little sense to me so I'll point that out.

It took an epic Lebron collapse for Dirk to win a ring. I don't get how on one end people rip Lebron apart for that series but on the other hand they give full credit and then some to Dirk. It was a lucky break equivalent to the best player on the other team breaking their leg and not playing the finals at all. Would Karl Malone win a ring in 97 or 98 if Jordan averaged 18 ppg and had zero impact? I mean yea... they might have swept the Bulls in all honesty.

I would say:

1) Malone
2) Garnett
3) Dirk
4) Barkley

[L.Kizzle]

KG is overrated. Jeesh. Makes the playoffs in only 8 of his 12 seasons in Minny. And only gets out of the 1st round once. That's good enough for 1st or 2nd on some of you guys list. Missed the playoffs in 3 straight seasons in the prime of his career.

Karl Malone is the only player on this list to NEVER miss the playoffs in 19 seasons. And that gets him 4th on most list here as well. The other 3 guys have MULTIPLE playoffs misses.

[fsvr54]

KG is overrated. Jeesh. Makes the playoffs in only 8 of his 12 seasons in Minny. And only gets out of the 1st round once. That's good enough for 1st or 2nd on some of you guys list. Missed the playoffs in 3 straight seasons in the prime of his career.

Karl Malone is the only player on this list to NEVER miss the playoffs in 19 seasons. And that gets him 4th on most list here as well. The other 3 guys have MULTIPLE playoffs misses.

Team sport. Individual talents

[ArbitraryWater]

For their primes id say its Barkley > Dirk > KG > Malone.

But it's all super close.


I actually, probably agree with this.


Or Dirk > Barkley > KG > Malone.

Can flip Dirk/Barkley and can flip KG/Malone.

Primes that is.

Career I'd take Dirk more obviously.

[John8204]

Very good question....for me

1. (or 19) is Dirk Nowitzki he has a ring/MVP and he was pretty much a solo act for his career
(20) (John Havlicek)
2. (or 21) is Kevin Garnett great two-way player changed his game to win a ring long productivity
(22) (Elgin Baylor)
(23) (Chris Paul)
3. (or 24) is Charles Barkley interesting case he might be the most well-rounded player since Wilt but he never won a ring...though I don't think it's his fault
(25) (Shaq)
(26) (Allen Iverson)
(27) (Walt Frazier)
4. (or 28) is Karl Malone as the years go by my respect for Stockton's game goes up and my respect for Malone's game goes down
(29) (Kevin Durant)
(30) (David Robinson)

[HoopsNY]

Team sport. Individual talents

He's right though. Anyone that followed KG for his entire career knew he was a meltdown waiting to happen in big games. That was the story of his "success" in his first 8 years in Minnesota. Everyone likes to focus on his 2004 playoffs, but conveniently forgets how much of a choker he was from 1997-2003. Literally 7 seasons of meltdown after meltdown. And then to add to that, he missed the playoffs 3 years in a row and has to form a super-team to remain relevant. KG is one of the most overrated players in league history.

[Shooter]

KG is overrated. Jeesh. Makes the playoffs in only 8 of his 12 seasons in Minny. And only gets out of the 1st round once. That's good enough for 1st or 2nd on some of you guys list. Missed the playoffs in 3 straight seasons in the prime of his career.

Karl Malone is the only player on this list to NEVER miss the playoffs in 19 seasons. And that gets him 4th on most list here as well. The other 3 guys have MULTIPLE playoffs misses.

Karl Malone won ZERO rings and made only TWO finals, playing in a weak era with John Stockton for 18 years...Imagine if KG had Stockton for 18 years and Malone had Troy Hudson :lol

[John8204]

He's right though. Anyone that followed KG for his entire career knew he was a meltdown waiting to happen in big games. That was the story of his "success" in his first 8 years in Minnesota. Everyone likes to focus on his 2004 playoffs, but conveniently forgets how much of a choker he was from 1997-2003. Literally 7 seasons of meltdown after meltdown. And then to add to that, he missed the playoffs 3 years in a row and has to form a super-team to remain relevant. KG is one of the most overrated players in league history.

1. He was really young (19-26)
2. He was playing for a small market team
3. They lost Marbury and the Joe Smith under the table deal crippled them

[Nowitness]

Duncan - 5th
Dirk - 17th
KG - 19th
Malone - 20th
Barkley - 24th

[DMAVS41]

He's right though. Anyone that followed KG for his entire career knew he was a meltdown waiting to happen in big games. That was the story of his "success" in his first 8 years in Minnesota. Everyone likes to focus on his 2004 playoffs, but conveniently forgets how much of a choker he was from 1997-2003. Literally 7 seasons of meltdown after meltdown. And then to add to that, he missed the playoffs 3 years in a row and has to form a super-team to remain relevant. KG is one of the most overrated players in league history.

During that time...in which some of the years he had almost no help...and was also really young...

He did 21/13/5 while playing elite defense most of the years in the playoffs.

Now, I do agree that KG gets over-rated by stat nerds and purists that don't look at success in context, but holding him to the standards of winning during Minny...is really unfair as nobody in NBA history was having great success with his help.

If anyone is over-rated on this list...it is Malone imo...he played with Stockton...a player that rightfully made all-nba basically his entire prime of 10 plus years...and he didn't even have the team success that Dirk did, for example, and Dirk played on only two teams his entire career, forget just prime, with a player to make an all-nba team...and in one of those years Dirk got hurt in the WCF with a good chance to win the title...and the other Nash was hurt in 02 and the team wasn't ready yet anyway.

If we are going to talk about success...Malone deserves the most criticism given his help.

[tpols]

He's right though. Anyone that followed KG for his entire career knew he was a meltdown waiting to happen in big games. That was the story of his "success" in his first 8 years in Minnesota. Everyone likes to focus on his 2004 playoffs, but conveniently forgets how much of a choker he was from 1997-2003. Literally 7 seasons of meltdown after meltdown. And then to add to that, he missed the playoffs 3 years in a row and has to form a super-team to remain relevant. KG is one of the most overrated players in league history.

Nobody wins on the timberwolves. So that's not fair. They're one of the worst cultures and organizations in NBA history and were actively nerfed in KGs prime for that scandal.

2004 KG was a different type of beast. That version might've been better than anybody in this group.

[DMAVS41]

Nobody wins on the timberwolves. So that's not fair. They're one of the worst cultures and organizations in NBA history and were actively nerfed in KGs prime for that scandal.

2004 KG was a different type of beast. That version might've been better than anybody in this group.


I heard Voulgaris (the legendary gambler that worked for the Mavericks) say that 04 KG had the highest peak of any player he ever rated with his valuation system.

[Nowitness]

Nobody wins on the timberwolves. So that's not fair. They're one of the worst cultures and organizations in NBA history and were actively nerfed in KGs prime for that scandal.

2004 KG was a different type of beast. That version might've been better than anybody in this group.

Come playoff time KG wasn't capable of going above his average consistently enough to be considered an all time great. Volume scoring matters in the postseason, something KG couldn't do. Man has less 30+ point playoff games than Dwight Howard and Blake Griffin.

[L.Kizzle]

Karl Malone won ZERO rings and made only TWO finals, playing in a weak era with John Stockton for 18 years...Imagine if KG had Stockton for 18 years and Malone had Troy Hudson :lol
KG is not as good scorer as Stockton. Don't forget he had Marbury and Chauncey Bulillups and they found success elsewhere.
KG not winning an MVP and making the Finals in the 90s. Stop it.

[L.Kizzle]

During that time...in which some of the years he had almost no help...and was also really young...

He did 21/13/5 while playing elite defense most of the years in the playoffs.

Now, I do agree that KG gets over-rated by stat nerds and purists that don't look at success in context, but holding him to the standards of winning during Minny...is really unfair as nobody in NBA history was having great success with his help.

If anyone is over-rated on this list...it is Malone imo...he played with Stockton...a player that rightfully made all-nba basically his entire prime of 10 plus years...and he didn't even have the team success that Dirk did, for example, and Dirk played on only two teams his entire career, forget just prime, with a player to make an all-nba team...and in one of those years Dirk got hurt in the WCF with a good chance to win the title...and the other Nash was hurt in 02 and the team wasn't ready yet anyway.

If we are going to talk about success...Malone deserves the most criticism given his help.
Dirk is the only player that can go over Malone here.
No one (besides Chuck) has a case and definitely not KG.

[HoopsNY]

During that time...in which some of the years he had almost no help...and was also really young...

He did 21/13/5 while playing elite defense most of the years in the playoffs.

Help doesn't excuse his level of play and being outplayed by teammates like Troy Hudson, Dean Garrett, and Anthony Peeler. These are KG's numbers in elimination games and his 4th quarter performances.

1997 Game 3 vs. Houston: 17 points, 7-16 FGs (44%) | 3 points, 1-3 FGs (33%), 1 TO

1998 Game 5 vs. Seattle: 7 points, 3-11 FGs (27%) 10 TOs | 0 points, 0-3 FGs (0%), 1 TO

1999 Game 4 vs. San Antonio: 20 points, 6-20 FGs (30%) | 9 points, 3-8 FGs (37%)

2000 Game 4 vs. Portland: 17 points, 5-20 FGs (20%) | 4 points, 1-7 FGs (14%)

2001 Game 4 vs. San Antonio: 19 points, 6-13 FGs (46%) | 2 points, 1-2 FGs (50%)

2002 Game 3 vs. Dallas: 22 points, 9-19 FGs (47%) 6 TOs | 3 points, 1-5 FGs (20%)

2003 Game 6 vs Los Angeles: 18 points, 9-21 FGs (42%) 3 TOs | 4 points, 2-5 FGs (40%) 2 TOs

Then there's 2004, much respect to him for that year, and then there's......a superteam. Yea, sorry....no.

[HoopsNY]

Nobody wins on the timberwolves. So that's not fair. They're one of the worst cultures and organizations in NBA history and were actively nerfed in KGs prime for that scandal.

2004 KG was a different type of beast. That version might've been better than anybody in this group.

It's not about winning; it's what KG actually did in the biggest moments; and he didn't do much.

[DMAVS41]

Dirk is the only player that can go over Malone here.
No one (besides Chuck) has a case and definitely not KG.

Sure he can. Malone had his own struggles in the playoffs as a scorer and was nowhere near the defensive force KG was during his career.

I'm fine with someone taking Malone on longevity and more consistent scoring, but it is kind of absurd to say no case. Also, hard to separate the impact of Stock...he made life a lot easier on Malone than any player KG had during his prime.

[DMAVS41]

Help doesn't excuse his level of play and being outplayed by teammates like Troy Hudson, Dean Garrett, and Anthony Peeler. These are KG's numbers in elimination games and his 4th quarter performances.

1997 Game 3 vs. Houston: 17 points, 7-16 FGs (44%) | 3 points, 1-3 FGs (33%), 1 TO

1998 Game 5 vs. Seattle: 7 points, 3-11 FGs (27%) 10 TOs | 0 points, 0-3 FGs (0%), 1 TO

1999 Game 4 vs. San Antonio: 20 points, 6-20 FGs (30%) | 9 points, 3-8 FGs (37%)

2000 Game 4 vs. Portland: 17 points, 5-20 FGs (20%) | 4 points, 1-7 FGs (14%)

2001 Game 4 vs. San Antonio: 19 points, 6-13 FGs (46%) | 2 points, 1-2 FGs (50%)

2002 Game 3 vs. Dallas: 22 points, 9-19 FGs (47%) 6 TOs | 3 points, 1-5 FGs (20%)

2003 Game 6 vs Los Angeles: 18 points, 9-21 FGs (42%) 3 TOs | 4 points, 2-5 FGs (40%) 2 TOs

Then there's 2004, much respect to him for that year, and then there's......a superteam. Yea, sorry....no.

You can't judge KG so heavily on scoring when his best attribute was his defense. He didn't get enough credit for how great a defender he was...he was basically a slightly worse Ben Wallace on defense and a slightly worse Tim Duncan on offense.

And, sorry, not understanding how much harder it is to produce when you don't have much help is just ignorant. Hell, just look at Curry last night...the Celtics finally gave in and gave him more defensive attention...and yes Curry just missed some shots, but help is not just about winning...real help allows stars to produce much better because if their teammates are better...teams can't just worry about one guy.

Having said that, I do agree that KG's offensive impact gets over-rated based on just his stats...he was nowhere near the offensive players Dirk and Barkley were...and he was worse than Malone.

However, his defense isn't getting enough credit in most of these conversations. And I agree that offense is clearly more important at the individual level...but lets tap the brakes on pretending KG was anything other than also a really good offensive player. He just wasn't an all-time great offensive force like Dirk / Barkley...but that is a bit unfair as they are two of the best pure offensive players ever.

[BigShotBob]

Barkley
Dirk
Malone
KG

Barkely is head and shoulders better and anyone who says otherwise needs to watch his games. Putting up 44/24 games to get into the Finals for instance. Let's stop the revisionist history over him.

Dirk abused KG so KG has no argument against him. He averaged over 30 ppg in a playoff series against KG.

Malone was more consistent than KG, who had egregious meltdowns. Malone didn't peak as high but he didn't fall as low.

KG is dead last. Not because he isn't great but his lows were really low and his defensive impact was negligible against real competition. Also his efficiency as a big was dreadful at times.

[tpols]

It's not about winning; it's what KG actually did in the biggest moments; and he didn't do much.

Nobody wins with the timberwolves especially with how hard they were hamstringed by that scandal. Yes... If a guy plays on shit teams and has the kitchen sink thrown at him its going to be harder to produce.

Are people forgetting Dirk started off with guys like Steve Nash and Michael Finley and one of the winningest coaches of all time? One of the best cultures and owners as well? That impacts things.

The second KG got some help he won a ring. And probably would have won a ring with Sam Cassell if not for the injury. Which would've been a '94 Hakeem or '11 Dirk level title.

Sam Cassell was a gangster player though. Not the most talented but totally hard nosed and ruthless.

[HoopsNY]

You can't judge KG so heavily on scoring when his best attribute was his defense. He didn't get enough credit for how great a defender he was...he was basically a slightly worse Ben Wallace on defense and a slightly worse Tim Duncan on offense.

And, sorry, not understanding how much harder it is to produce when you don't have much help is just ignorant. Hell, just look at Curry last night...the Celtics finally gave in and gave him more defensive attention...and yes Curry just missed some shots, but help is not just about winning...real help allows stars to produce much better because if their teammates are better...teams can't just worry about one guy.

I'm not sure if you're old enough to remember those days, but this was not what was being said at the time. The consistent criticism against KG was that he wasn't taking over games and that he would fall apart in big games, specifically in the 4th quarter. As for help, then that's another misnomer. Let's look at the playoffs and see what guys were giving (keep in mind this is the lowest scoring and height of the defensive era).

1997: Marbury (21.0 PPG), Gugliotta (18.3 PPG), KG (17.3 PPG) | Elimination Game: Garrett (26 pts), Gugliotta (27 pts), KG (17 pts) ***Googs scored as much as HOU leading scorer (Hakeem) in the series***

1998: Peeler (16.8 PPG), Porter (15.8 PPG), KG (15.8 PPG) | Elimination Game: Peeler (28 pts), Mitchell (16 pts), Porter (14 pts), KG (7 pts) ***Peeler outscored SEA #2 in the series***

1999: KG (21.8 PPG), Brandon (19.3 PPG) | Elimination Game: Brandon (27 pts), KG (20 pts) ***This series, Brandon outscored Tim Duncan (18.8 PPG)***

2000: Brandon (19.5 PPG), KG (18.3 PPG), Sealy (12.5 PPG) | Elimination Game: KG (17 pts), Brandon (13 pts), Sealy (10 pts) ***KG shot 25%, Brandon shot 43% in the elimination game***

2001: KG (21.0 PPG), Brandon (15.3 PPG), Wally Z (14.0 PPG) | Elimination Game: Wally Z (20 pts), KG (19 pts), Brandon (17 pts) ***This series, KG's #2 and #3 combined to outscore SAS' #2 and #3***

2002: KG (24.0 PPG), Wally Z (22.0 PPG), Billups (20.0 PPG) | Elimination Game: KG (22 pts), Wally Z (20 pts), Billups (16 pts)

2003: KG (27.0 PPG), Hudson (23.5 PPG), Wally Z (14.5 PPG) | Elimination Game: Hudson (18 pts), KG (18 pts), Wally (14 pts)

The "no help" claim is a myth. KG was just never good enough to get them over the hump.


Having said that, I do agree that KG's offensive impact gets over-rated based on just his stats...he was nowhere near the offensive players Dirk and Barkley were...and he was worse than Malone.

KG got torched too, albeit he was up against elite competition a lot of the time.


However, his defense isn't getting enough credit in most of these conversations. And I agree that offense is clearly more important at the individual level...but lets tap the brakes on pretending KG was anything other than also a really good offensive player. He just wasn't an all-time great offensive force like Dirk / Barkley...but that is a bit unfair as they are two of the best pure offensive players ever.

The problem is KG's defensive contributions gets bloated when looking at what he did on Boston, a team that was just great defensively overall. As a result, there is recency bias in forgetting what actually happened in his earlier years in the playoffs with Minnesota. He was not a defensive juggernaut most of those years in the postseason.

[HoopsNY]

Nobody wins with the timberwolves especially with how hard they were hamstringed by that scandal. Yes... If a guy plays on shit teams and has the kitchen sink thrown at him its going to be harder to produce.

Are people forgetting Dirk started off with guys like Steve Nash and Michael Finley and one of the winningest coaches of all time? One of the best cultures and owners as well? That impacts things.

The second KG got some help he won a ring. And probably would have won a ring with Sam Cassell if not for the injury. Which would've been a '94 Hakeem or '11 Dirk level title.

Sam Cassell was a gangster player though. Not the most talented but totally hard nosed and ruthless.

Meh, I think you're overlooking a big criticism of KG. We're not talking about a player who shined in the absence of great help. After all, he had help many of the years and still underperformed. Again, he was being outperformed by guys like Troy Hudson, Dean Garrett, Tom Gugliotta, and Terrell Brandon.

What difference does it make if it's a bigger name averaging 24 PPG for a series like Hudson did, or dropping 28 in an elimination game like Garrett did? Help is help and he had it. And when he had it, he did nothing with it, especially when a lot of these guys were outperforming the opposing team's #2 and #3.

Furthermore, there's no indication that Minnesota would have in fact beaten LAL with a healthy Cassell. That Lakers team was stacked as is. And in game 1, Cassell played and they still lost. So it's a broad assumption really.

[houston]

KG do get passes for Minny failure plus he was hogging all the money. KG is just loud mouth version of David Robinson impact wise. HoopsNY does make great point.

[Im Still Ballin]

I'd take this guy at his peak over Malone.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3iiqYnBNPM

[L.Kizzle]

I'd take this guy at his peak over Malone.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3iiqYnBNPM
Dude played with 8 HOF'ers and couldn't even start over Cedric Maxwell.

[Im Still Ballin]

Dude played with 8 HOF'ers and couldn't even start over Cedric Maxwell.

Look at those post moves. Look at the paint protection. Incredible wingspan. Incredible!

[L.Kizzle]

Look at those post moves. Look at the paint protection. Incredible wingspan. Incredible!
He was pretty good for a 6th man. I'll give you that. ��

[Im Still Ballin]

He was pretty good for a 6th man. I'll give you that. ��

Is winning the paint battle important in basketball? Is it a significant contributing factor toward winning?

[DMAVS41]

I'm not sure if you're old enough to remember those days, but this was not what was being said at the time. The consistent criticism against KG was that he wasn't taking over games and that he would fall apart in big games, specifically in the 4th quarter. As for help, then that's another misnomer. Let's look at the playoffs and see what guys were giving (keep in mind this is the lowest scoring and height of the defensive era).

1997: Marbury (21.0 PPG), Gugliotta (18.3 PPG), KG (17.3 PPG) | Elimination Game: Garrett (26 pts), Gugliotta (27 pts), KG (17 pts) ***Googs scored as much as HOU leading scorer (Hakeem) in the series***

1998: Peeler (16.8 PPG), Porter (15.8 PPG), KG (15.8 PPG) | Elimination Game: Peeler (28 pts), Mitchell (16 pts), Porter (14 pts), KG (7 pts) ***Peeler outscored SEA #2 in the series***

1999: KG (21.8 PPG), Brandon (19.3 PPG) | Elimination Game: Brandon (27 pts), KG (20 pts) ***This series, Brandon outscored Tim Duncan (18.8 PPG)***

2000: Brandon (19.5 PPG), KG (18.3 PPG), Sealy (12.5 PPG) | Elimination Game: KG (17 pts), Brandon (13 pts), Sealy (10 pts) ***KG shot 25%, Brandon shot 43% in the elimination game***

2001: KG (21.0 PPG), Brandon (15.3 PPG), Wally Z (14.0 PPG) | Elimination Game: Wally Z (20 pts), KG (19 pts), Brandon (17 pts) ***This series, KG's #2 and #3 combined to outscore SAS' #2 and #3***

2002: KG (24.0 PPG), Wally Z (22.0 PPG), Billups (20.0 PPG) | Elimination Game: KG (22 pts), Wally Z (20 pts), Billups (16 pts)

2003: KG (27.0 PPG), Hudson (23.5 PPG), Wally Z (14.5 PPG) | Elimination Game: Hudson (18 pts), KG (18 pts), Wally (14 pts)

The "no help" claim is a myth. KG was just never good enough to get them over the hump.



KG got torched too, albeit he was up against elite competition a lot of the time.



The problem is KG's defensive contributions gets bloated when looking at what he did on Boston, a team that was just great defensively overall. As a result, there is recency bias in forgetting what actually happened in his earlier years in the playoffs with Minnesota. He was not a defensive juggernaut most of those years in the postseason.

Old enough? Sadly I'm too old...

Again, holding him responsible for what happened on some of those teams in the playoffs. You are legit using him losing to the 98 Sonics with a vastly inferior team in only his second year in the playoff against him. I find that to be an absurdly high standard.

Now, again, it is fair to say his lack of scoring and really, more importantly, his lack of capability of being the offense generator for a great offense....is a weakness when it comes to comparing him to some of the best players ever as that is likely the most valuable asset to have as a player...especially in the playoffs.

I don't think his defensive impact gets bloated...he had that reputation (rightfully so), if you are old enough to remember, dating back way before the Celtics. He was an elite defender probably by 00 or 01 iirc.

And when you say "outperformed"...that is like saying Ben Wallace was outperformed by Tayshaun Prince in a series in which Prince scored a few more points a game. If you can't acknowledge that KG is on the short list of greatest and most versatile defenders ever...you'll never assess his true value.

Again though...I actually agree that his offensive limitations are often overlooked...but the argument that he should have been winning in Minny with those teams....nah...nobody was.

[Sharmer]

No one on the Bulls could guard Barkley in the finals, he dominated Pippen & Rodman. The Bulls made the strategic decision to double him on every play and Barkley gave up the ball and simply he's team mates missed shots. He had the ball stolen but was holding the ball looking for team mates.

Barkley should have off taken on the double teams , he was a force of nature close to the RIM. Lacking in height but jumping and sheer power made him impossible to guard at the RIM. He's easily 1 on the list.

[Phoenix]

It's Dirk and Barkley for me, roll a dice. They're the two most capable offensive anchor and IMO it trumps KG's defensive prowess and very good but not great scoring. We get in this habit of counting up attributes as if they're all equal. Being a flat-out alpha scorer is the most important skill in basketball, fill in the gaps from there. Dirk was 25/10 in the playoffs on 58% TS in what is possibly the GOAT era for PFs in a brutal western conference.

[plowking]

Peak Anthony Davis is the level of calibre that KG was at, and he ain't a better player than Barkley, Malone or Dirk.

[HoopsNY]

Old enough? Sadly I'm too old...

I hear ya.


Again, holding him responsible for what happened on some of those teams in the playoffs. You are legit using him losing to the 98 Sonics with a vastly inferior team in only his second year in the playoff against him. I find that to be an absurdly high standard.

I'm not holding him responsible. It's understandable that Minnesota lost in those series. What is not understandable is being outplayed by your teammates consistently, and choking or underperforming to the degree that he did. Forget about the losses.


Now, again, it is fair to say his lack of scoring and really, more importantly, his lack of capability of being the offense generator for a great offense....is a weakness when it comes to comparing him to some of the best players ever as that is likely the most valuable asset to have as a player...especially in the playoffs.

It's huge. But KG didn't show up on either side of the ball when it mattered the most in those first 7 years, at least not to the degree of some of his peers.


I don't think his defensive impact gets bloated...he had that reputation (rightfully so), if you are old enough to remember, dating back way before the Celtics. He was an elite defender probably by 00 or 01 iirc.

I do. 2008 the Celtics had an insane defense with other guys who could either hold their own or play great defensively like Posey, T. Allen, and Rondo. The team as a whole was in sync defensively and having KG as an anchor made them a defensive juggernaut. KG was an absolute elite defender prior to Boston, but not to the degree that people give him credit for when he was on Boston.

Guys like B. Wallace, Duncan, Artest, Mourning, GP, Mutombo, etc were just as good, if not better on the ball and help defenders. But obviously KG stands out more on a team like Boston.


And when you say "outperformed"...that is like saying Ben Wallace was outperformed by Tayshaun Prince in a series in which Prince scored a few more points a game. If you can't acknowledge that KG is on the short list of greatest and most versatile defenders ever...you'll never assess his true value.

He has the longevity and certainly has some great individual years defensively, but that is not my point. My point is that in his first 7 years, he was pedestrian when it mattered the most. Does any other ATG get this kind of excuse making? I mean, imagine Fisher, Horry, Odom, or Smush Parker outplaying Kobe while you choke away 7 consecutive years?

Or how about Bowen, Avery Johnson, Malik Rose, or Nazr Mohamed? How about Barnes, Livingston, Draymond, Iguodala, etc? Or how about Hornacek, Russell, Eaton, or Eisley? Why with KG, we overlook it?


Again though...I actually agree that his offensive limitations are often overlooked...but the argument that he should have been winning in Minny with those teams....nah...nobody was.

I never made that argument. However, it just looks really bad when you're supposedly so great and you have 7 consecutive years of choke performances in the playoffs, 1 great year (which everyone has, lets be honest), 3 years of not even making the playoffs at all, and then forming a super-team?

If that isn't the definition of overrated, then I don't know what is.

[DMAVS41]

I hear ya.



I'm not holding him responsible. It's understandable that Minnesota lost in those series. What is not understandable is being outplayed by your teammates consistently, and choking or underperforming to the degree that he did. Forget about the losses.



It's huge. But KG didn't show up on either side of the ball when it mattered the most in those first 7 years, at least not to the degree of some of his peers.



I do. 2008 the Celtics had an insane defense with other guys who could either hold their own or play great defensively like Posey, T. Allen, and Rondo. The team as a whole was in sync defensively and having KG as an anchor made them a defensive juggernaut. KG was an absolute elite defender prior to Boston, but not to the degree that people give him credit for when he was on Boston.

Guys like B. Wallace, Duncan, Artest, Mourning, GP, Mutombo, etc were just as good, if not better on the ball and help defenders. But obviously KG stands out more on a team like Boston.



He has the longevity and certainly has some great individual years defensively, but that is not my point. My point is that in his first 7 years, he was pedestrian when it mattered the most. Does any other ATG get this kind of excuse making? I mean, imagine Fisher, Horry, Odom, or Smush Parker outplaying Kobe while you choke away 7 consecutive years?

Or how about Bowen, Avery Johnson, Malik Rose, or Nazr Mohamed? How about Barnes, Livingston, Draymond, Iguodala, etc? Or how about Hornacek, Russell, Eaton, or Eisley? Why with KG, we overlook it?



I never made that argument. However, it just looks really bad when you're supposedly so great and you have 7 consecutive years of choke performances in the playoffs, 1 great year (which everyone has, lets be honest), 3 years of not even making the playoffs at all, and then forming a super-team?

If that isn't the definition of overrated, then I don't know what is.

I agree with a lot of this as I think KG gets rated too highly at times, but I think you are severely under-rating how good defensively KG was on Minnesota. I think you are looking at it backwards....with the 08 Celtics...he finally had the kind of team that could allow for him to anchor an elite defense and dominate that way.

You also are putting too much weight on his early years...he came out of high school to a shit franchise that gave him very little help. You are talking about a teenager coming into the league to a terrible franchise...it doesn't get harder in terms of circumstances.

Choking or underperforming...whatever you want to call it...KG was still a 21/11/5 defensive monster and that was before his peak.

Every player is going to do better or worse based on circumstances. KG had objectively terrible circumstances early on in his career. Kobe, conversely, had objectively fantastic circumstances early on in his career. If a player like Kobe or Duncan or Dirk or Barkley...etc....had to play on the Timberwolves all those years...they'd never win anything and they'd have much worse performances because trying perform in the playoffs is a lot harder without help.

Yes, they'd be better offensively, but significantly worse defensively outside of Duncan...and as great as I think Duncan was...he wasn't great enough to change anything noteworthy with help like that.

[WhiteKyrie]

1) Barkley
2) KG
3) Dirk
4) Malone

[HoopsNY]

1) Barkley
2) KG
3) Dirk
4) Malone

Why is KG ahead of Malone when Malone took his team to the finals back to back years against teams like HOU, LAL, and SAS, facing players like Hakeem, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, Robinson, Jones, Clyde, and great vets and role players as well like Van Exel, Elie, Horry, Campbell, A. Johnson, Willis, E. Johnson, and B. Scott

A lot of people forget that the Jazz's best bench players were Carr, Eisley, and Anderson. Eisley was a second year player in 1997 and Anderson a rookie in 1997. Carr was 36 by the time '97 and '98 rolled around, but I do admit he was a good vet.

Point is, Malone was out there as All-Defensive 1st Team, MVP, and leading his team to the finals with inferior talent in comparison to his opponents. KG was out there routinely choking until he had a superteam against similar competition. When did KG really ever prove himself in a similar fashion to Malone?

[HoopsNY]

I agree with a lot of this as I think KG gets rated too highly at times, but I think you are severely under-rating how good defensively KG was on Minnesota. I think you are looking at it backwards....with the 08 Celtics...he finally had the kind of team that could allow for him to anchor an elite defense and dominate that way.

I'm speaking more about the playoffs. I don't recall him dominating the defensive side of the ball in the playoffs in those years I mentioned. Maybe you can refresh my memory, but I genuinely don't recall it. I get what you're saying though and it is an interesting way of looking at it.


You also are putting too much weight on his early years...he came out of high school to a shit franchise that gave him very little help. You are talking about a teenager coming into the league to a terrible franchise...it doesn't get harder in terms of circumstances.

We're not talking about his rookie year. They didn't even make the playoffs. Okay let's put aside his second and third years. But by 1999, KG was solidly one of the best players in the game. He was an MVP candidate and All-NBA 3rd Team. We're just gonna look past the 5 years following his first 2 playoff runs?

And my point is, I'm not expecting huge results from those years in question. But when you're being outplayed by far inferior talent, then it doesn't matter that you were young.


Every player is going to do better or worse based on circumstances. KG had objectively terrible circumstances early on in his career. Kobe, conversely, had objectively fantastic circumstances early on in his career. If a player like Kobe or Duncan or Dirk or Barkley...etc....had to play on the Timberwolves all those years...they'd never win anything and they'd have much worse performances because trying perform in the playoffs is a lot harder without help.

Yea I get that. I just don't think Duncan, Dirk, Barkley, or Malone would choke as badly as KG did, while not being particularly impactful defensively as his legacy indicates.

[WhiteKyrie]

Why is KG ahead of Malone when Malone took his team to the finals back to back years against teams like HOU, LAL, and SAS, facing players like Hakeem, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan, Robinson, Jones, Clyde, and great vets and role players as well like Van Exel, Elie, Horry, Campbell, A. Johnson, Willis, E. Johnson, and B. Scott

A lot of people forget that the Jazz's best bench players were Carr, Eisley, and Anderson. Eisley was a second year player in 1997 and Anderson a rookie in 1997. Carr was 36 by the time '97 and '98 rolled around, but I do admit he was a good vet.

Point is, Malone was out there as All-Defensive 1st Team, MVP, and leading his team to the finals with inferior talent in comparison to his opponents. KG was out there routinely choking until he had a superteam against similar competition. When did KG really ever prove himself in a similar fashion to Malone?
KG was 18/10/4 for his career
Duncan was 19/11/3 for his career

Karl was 25/10/4 for his career

Based off pure numbers, Malone is better than both.

That’s not factoring in defense, and quality of teammates surrounding them.

KG played for a putrid Minnesota franchise. He went to the conference finals in 2004 taking the super Lakers six games with his next best player being 33 year old Spreewell just a season away from retirement.

I think after Barkley there is a quality argument for all of them, TBH. I’m not pissing on Karl, nor did my post insinuate that, so why the super offended lengthy response?

So Karl is better than those two guys definitively?

For comparative sake

Barkley - 22/12/4 for his career
Dirk - 21/8/2 for his career

[L.Kizzle]

If KG was getting super crazy numbers on those bad teams, maybe he could warrant getting up high in these ranking. He was getting 21/13 some years. Antonio McDysee was probably getting that before he was hurt.
KG was top 5 in scoring once, Malone 13 times.
Malone top ten in rebounding 8 times, KG 10.

[DMAVS41]

I'm speaking more about the playoffs. I don't recall him dominating the defensive side of the ball in the playoffs in those years I mentioned. Maybe you can refresh my memory, but I genuinely don't recall it. I get what you're saying though and it is an interesting way of looking at it.



We're not talking about his rookie year. They didn't even make the playoffs. Okay let's put aside his second and third years. But by 1999, KG was solidly one of the best players in the game. He was an MVP candidate and All-NBA 3rd Team. We're just gonna look past the 5 years following his first 2 playoff runs?

And my point is, I'm not expecting huge results from those years in question. But when you're being outplayed by far inferior talent, then it doesn't matter that you were young.



Yea I get that. I just don't think Duncan, Dirk, Barkley, or Malone would choke as badly as KG did, while not being particularly impactful defensively as his legacy indicates.

It is hard to make a huge defensive impact as a singular player...even a great one.

Take Gobert in the playoffs this year...he is without a doubt an all-time great defender...yet his team gave up a 116 ortg to the Mavs in that series which would essentially been the best offensive rating for the year. I don't look at that and conclude that Gobert isn't a great defender...team defense takes a team.

I don't think it is looking past them...I think it is just understanding how difficult the circumstances were.

Like I said...I agree with a lot of what you say about the importance of individual offense...but we don't know what the other guys would do in those situations...and it isn't like Malone has a lot to hang his hat on in terms of playoff performances even with a GOAT level point feeding him nearly his entire career.

[HoopsNY]

KG was 18/10/4 for his career
Duncan was 19/11/3 for his career

Karl was 25/10/4 for his career

Based off pure numbers, Malone is better than both.

That’s not factoring in defense, and quality of teammates surrounding them.

KG played for a putrid Minnesota franchise. He went to the conference finals in 2004 taking the super Lakers six games with his next best player being 33 year old Spreewell just a season away from retirement.

I think after Barkley there is a quality argument for all of them, TBH. I’m not pissing on Karl, nor did my post insinuate that, so why the super offended lengthy response?

So Karl is better than those two guys definitively?

For comparative sake

Barkley - 22/12/4 for his career
Dirk - 21/8/2 for his career

If you think I'm super offended then I'm not sure how to even respond lol.

[HoopsNY]

It is hard to make a huge defensive impact as a singular player...even a great one.

Take Gobert in the playoffs this year...he is without a doubt an all-time great defender...yet his team gave up a 116 ortg to the Mavs in that series which would essentially been the best offensive rating for the year. I don't look at that and conclude that Gobert isn't a great defender...team defense takes a team.

I don't think it is looking past them...I think it is just understanding how difficult the circumstances were.

Like I said...I agree with a lot of what you say about the importance of individual offense...but we don't know what the other guys would do in those situations...and it isn't like Malone has a lot to hang his hat on in terms of playoff performances even with a GOAT level point feeding him nearly his entire career.

I think we can all look at individual players who were great defenders and highlight their impact in at least 1 series where they really stood out. For me, there is a mental gap for KG between 1997-2004. 2008 stood out yea, so maybe there is credence to what it is that you're saying because most guys do so on great defensive teams.

Having said all of that, I don't think it really eliminates what it is that I'm saying because there is an absence of evidence whereas for the other players there are clear examples of them rising to the occasion and coming up big in big moments.

[HoopsNY]

Malone from 1992-98 in elimination games was 28/12/4/1/1 on 50% (56% TS%).

KG from 1997-04 in elimination games was 21/13/5/1/1 on 42% (48% TS%). KG averaged slightly more assists, but also averaged more turnovers.

One might say why focus on the earlier years for KG. The reason I'm doing that is because KG missed the playoffs for 3 years after 2004 and then formed a super-team. My argument is that his Boston years is the recency bias in all of this, particularly because his defense stood out in 2008.

Reality is that KG was not Malone or anywhere near him.

[HoopsNY]

If KG was getting super crazy numbers on those bad teams, maybe he could warrant getting up high in these ranking. He was getting 21/13 some years. Antonio McDysee was probably getting that before he was hurt.
KG was top 5 in scoring once, Malone 13 times.
Malone top ten in rebounding 8 times, KG 10.

That's partially my point. In KG's case, it's not enough to shift the blame on his team because his performances were so poor relative to his peers. In addition, he had teammates playing as good (or better) in the elimination games. That's just inexcusable if you're drawing comparisons to people like Dean Garrett and Wally Szczerbiak.

[DMAVS41]

Malone from 1992-98 in elimination games was 28/12/4/1/1 on 50% (56% TS%).

KG from 1997-04 in elimination games was 21/13/5/1/1 on 42% (48% TS%). KG averaged slightly more assists, but also averaged more turnovers.

One might say why focus on the earlier years for KG. The reason I'm doing that is because KG missed the playoffs for 3 years after 2004 and then formed a super-team. My argument is that his Boston years is the recency bias in all of this, particularly because his defense stood out in 2008.

Reality is that KG was not Malone or anywhere near him.

You keep focusing on "elimination games" like that is all that matters.

Now...I'm going to post this even though I disagree with KG's ranking...but if you are talking just about impact / stats...and not taking into account other stuff...there are strong objective arguments that KG is actually under-rated. Again, I disagree with this methodology as I think it misses parts of what goes into making a great basketball player and does weigh things differently than I would...but, you seem to be under-rating KG pretty severely.

https://backpicks.com/2018/03/19/backpicks-goat-8-kevin-garnett/

He has him 8th all-time...and he goes way deeper into the stats / impact than you do.

[HoopsNY]

You keep focusing on "elimination games" like that is all that matters.

Now...I'm going to post this even though I disagree with KG's ranking...but if you are talking just about impact / stats...and not taking into account other stuff...there are strong objective arguments that KG is actually under-rated. Again, I disagree with this methodology as I think it misses parts of what goes into making a great basketball player and does weigh things differently than I would...but, you seem to be under-rating KG pretty severely.

https://backpicks.com/2018/03/19/backpicks-goat-8-kevin-garnett/

He has him 8th all-time...and he goes way deeper into the stats / impact than you do.

I'm focusing on elimination games and the 4th quarters of those games to make the point that KG couldn't carry a load, whereas other guys could. That separates them from him because they have much of what he brought to the table in the regular season.

If other guys were able to put up 25/10/5/2 on high efficiency, then we need to look at where it mattered most - the playoffs.

I'm familiar with backpicks' overrating KG and I believe the overemphasis on stats and analytics is a detriment to the discussion. Anyway, I understand all of your points and agree with them, I just don't think it puts KG above any of the other players given what I actually saw from him his first 11 seasons in the league.

[DMAVS41]

I'm focusing on elimination games and the 4th quarters of those games to make the point that KG couldn't carry a load, whereas other guys could. That separates them from him because they have much of what he brought to the table in the regular season.

If other guys were able to put up 25/10/5/2 on high efficiency, then we need to look at where it mattered most - the playoffs.

I'm familiar with backpicks' overrating KG and I believe the overemphasis on stats and analytics is a detriment to the discussion. Anyway, I understand all of your points and agree with them, I just don't think it puts KG above any of the other players given what I actually saw from him his first 11 seasons in the league.

Right, but at least with Barkley and Dirk and Malone...they couldn't anchor an elite defense even close to the level KG could.

Look, I'm not a KG guy and I'm definitely more on your side of the equation...but I also think KG really gets a raw deal for being drafted by a shit franchise with shit help for most of his prime...

Also, Malone did not do it when it mattered most in the playoffs. Dirk, overall, definitely was an elite playoff performer that came through enough...even though he had has rough times like everyone. But Malone? In the playoffs?

Just no...

In the regular season for his career Malone was a 58% TS player...in the playoffs for his career Malone was a 53% TS player...that is absolutely not high efficiency in the playoffs. That is honestly quite poor given the type of player he was (finisher / scorer more than offense generator)...

[L.Kizzle]

Right, but at least with Barkley and Dirk and Malone...they couldn't anchor an elite defense even close to the level KG could.

Look, I'm not a KG guy and I'm definitely more on your side of the equation...but I also think KG really gets a raw deal for being drafted by a shit franchise with shit help for most of his prime...

Also, Malone did not do it when it mattered most in the playoffs. Dirk, overall, definitely was an elite playoff performer that came through enough...even though he had has rough times like everyone. But Malone? In the playoffs?

Just no...

In the regular season for his career Malone was a 58% TS player...in the playoffs for his career Malone was a 53% TS player...that is absolutely not high efficiency in the playoffs. That is honestly quite poor given the type of player he was (finisher / scorer more than offense generator)...
Malone lost to Jordan in the Finals. If he was losing to Kendall Gill and the Nets we can hold that against him.

[DMAVS41]

Malone lost to Jordan in the Finals. If he was losing to Kendall Gill and the Nets we can hold that against him.

It isn't about losing...although you would expect Stockton / Malone to win at least one when they played their entire careers together.

Jordan wasn't the cause of Malone's efficiency dropping off a cliff in the playoffs. Now, I actually think Malone gets under-rated here at times...but to call him a highly efficient playoff performer is just objectively false.

[L.Kizzle]

It isn't about losing...although you would expect Stockton / Malone to win at least one when they played their entire careers together.

Jordan wasn't the cause of Malone's efficiency dropping off a cliff in the playoffs. Now, I actually think Malone gets under-rated here at times...but to call him a highly efficient playoff performer is just objectively false.
So Malone couldn't get a ring because of Magic, Zeke, Jordan, Hakeem and Duncan/Robinson?

Early in his career the Jazz lost to Golden State and Phoenix. Those were probably upsets I guess.
Portland (Drexler) and Houston (Hakeem) beat Utah back to back in playoffs in 91-92 and 94-95. Lost to Seattle in 93 and 96 .

[DMAVS41]

So Malone couldn't get a ring because of Magic, Zeke, Jordan, Hakeem and Duncan/Robinson?

Early in his career the Jazz lost to Golden State and Phoenix. Those were probably upsets I guess.
Portland (Drexler) and Houston (Hakeem) beat Utah back to back in playoffs in 91-92 and 94-95. Lost to Seattle in 93 and 96 .

Again, my point was about him not being a highly efficient playoff performer...which, again...is simply a fact.

Now, if you want to talk about winning / losing...yes, I think it is fair to hold Stockton / Malone accountable for only making 2 finals and not winning a ring together. Can't believe that is controversial to anyone.

[dankok8]

Malone has poor playoff efficiency because of the late 90's. This was a really tough era to score and most players had low playoff efficiencies. Malone low key may have had a better NBA Finals in 1998 then Dirk in 2011. But he didn't have the opposing "GOAT candidate" average 18 ppg and have zero impact so he lost the series. In his athletic prime 1988-1992 Malone gave you 29 ppg on very good efficiency too. Over their entire primes was only worse than Dirk in scoring (3% lower relative efficiency) and much better in all other areas of the game like rebounding, passing (Malone was an underrated passer...) and defense which is almost 50% of the game for a big man.

[DMAVS41]

Malone has poor playoff efficiency because of the late 90's. This was a really tough era to score and most players had low playoff efficiencies. Malone low key may have had a better NBA Finals in 1998 then Dirk in 2011. But he didn't have the opposing "GOAT candidate" average 18 ppg and have zero impact so he lost the series. In his athletic prime 1988-1992 Malone gave you 29 ppg on very good efficiency too. Over their entire primes was only worse than Dirk in scoring (3% lower relative efficiency) and much better in all other areas of the game like rebounding, passing (Malone was an underrated passer...) and defense which is almost 50% of the game for a big man.

I disagree...not that Malone was bad in the playoffs or something...but that his raw numbers over-state his impact.

He wasn't an "offense generator" that made others better at the level of someone like Dirk either...which often gets ignored.

I also disagree that defense is close to 50% of the game for a big man as well...it certainly can be, but...not when evaluating a player like Dirk. If true...you just wouldn't see Dirk go toe to toe with guys like Duncan and KG in the playoffs and come away looking like the best player on the court at times.

Also, the Mavs in 2011 faced some of the toughest competition in NBA history to win the title and Dirk had a below average supporting cast. Onc can try and rationalize it...but maybe the big German had something to do with the other teams not playing their best...

Lakers - 2 current all-nba players
Thunder - 2 current all-nba players
Heat - 2 current all-nba players

:cheers:

[999Guy]

Peak Anthony Davis is the level of calibre that KG was at, and he ain't a better player than Barkley, Malone or Dirk.

Well peak Anthony Davis flat out topped LeBron there. So…shut up. You didn’t make the point you think you did.

[dankok8]

I disagree...not that Malone was bad in the playoffs or something...but that his raw numbers over-state his impact.

He wasn't an "offense generator" that made others better at the level of someone like Dirk either...which often gets ignored.

I also disagree that defense is close to 50% of the game for a big man as well...it certainly can be, but...not when evaluating a player like Dirk. If true...you just wouldn't see Dirk go toe to toe with guys like Duncan and KG in the playoffs and come away looking like the best player on the court at times.

Also, the Mavs in 2011 faced some of the toughest competition in NBA history to win the title and Dirk had a below average supporting cast. Onc can try and rationalize it...but maybe the big German had something to do with the other teams not playing their best...

Lakers - 2 current all-nba players
Thunder - 2 current all-nba players
Heat - 2 current all-nba players

:cheers:

Excluding non-prime versions:

2002-2012 Dirk: 26.2 ppg, 10.4 rpg (1.6 o), 2.7 apg on 58.4 %TS (+5.1 rTS) with 2.4 topg (118 games)
1988-2000 Malone: 27.0 ppg, 11.3 rpg (2.9 o), 3.2 apg on 53.4 %TS (+0.2 rTS) with 2.9 topg (149 games)

Dirk has a large edge in efficiency but Malone is a much better defender. All-Defensive level or close to it vs. a guy who is average and for a big man that's a big deal. And Malone also has an edge in both rebounding and passing the ball.

Also worth noting that Malone had more deep playoff runs. When you face better teams it's generally a bit harder to put up big numbers. And he also played more playoff games in the late 90's when it was tougher to score and league wide efficiency was lower.

[WhiteKyrie]

If you think I'm super offended then I'm not sure how to even respond lol.

You went off on some super stupid and long diatribe. I think it’s pretty arguable after Barkley.

Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan play great defense. Only ones on the list to truly do so.

Barkley, Malone, and especially Dirk play no damn defense.

And I’m not one to sweep beside him being the worst MVP of all time, and as a number one seed that won over 60 games, losing to Baron Davis led eighth seed with Steven Jackson as his second best player. Unforgivable. Worst MVP of all time. Got curb stomped in the first round and positionally out played.

At least Malone could rebound. Barkley grabbed them things at a record pace. Which contributes to defense and offense.

Dirk couldn’t even do that.

I’m ranking them based on their quality in their entirety as players. Also, don’t care if it’s considered a hot take, healthy AD (which admittedly is rare) is better than all of them. Easily.


Peak Anthony Davis is the level of calibre that KG was at, and he ain't a better player than Barkley, Malone or Dirk.

Peak AD is better than all those guys.

Better defensively by country miles compared to Barkley, Dirk, and Malone. And much more dynamic offensively than TD or KG.

Get out of here.

:oldlol:

Up until last year all time PER

1) Jordan
2) LeBron
3) AD

Now?

1) Jordan
2) LeBron
3) Jokic
4) AD

[DMAVS41]

You went off on some super stupid and long diatribe. I think it’s pretty arguable after Barkley.

Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan play great defense. Only ones on the list to truly do so.

Barkley, Malone, and especially Dirk play no ****ing defense.

At least Malone could rebound. Barkley grabbed them things at a record pace. Which contributes to defense and offense.

Dirk couldn’t even do that.

I’m ranking them based on their quality in their entirety as players. Also, don’t care if it’s considered a hot take, healthy AD (which admittedly is rare) is better than all of them. Easily.



Peak AD is better than all those guys.

Better defensively by country miles compared to Barkley, Dirk, and Malone. And much more dynamic offensively than TD or KG.

Get out of here.

:oldlol:

Up until last year all time PER

1) Jordan
2) LeBron
3) AD

Now?

1) Jordan
2) LeBron
3) Jokic
4) AD

I'd have to check the actual numbers, but I'm pretty sure Dirk averaged close to 11 rebounds per game in the playoffs over a 10 year stretch.

Pretty absurd to accuse him of not rebounding.

[WhiteKyrie]

I'd have to check the actual numbers, but I'm pretty sure Dirk averaged close to 11 rebounds per game in the playoffs over a 10 year stretch.

Pretty absurd to accuse him of not rebounding.

Dirk Career - 8 rpg
KG Career - 10 rpg
AD Career - 10 rpg
Duncan Career - 11 rpg
Barkley Career - 12 rpg

He rebounded. But not as well as these other guys.

Luka the Mavs all time best player already, is averaging 9 rebounds per game and he’s 5 inches shorter than Dirk.

[Duderonomy]

Career: Malone, Dirk,
KG, Barkley

Peak: Barkley, KG, Malone, Dirk

[HoopsNY]

Right, but at least with Barkley and Dirk and Malone...they couldn't anchor an elite defense even close to the level KG could.

Agreed, although I do think you're underrating Malone who was a very good defender. My point was that KG's elite defense didn't tip the scales in the playoffs, which was extremely important given his woes offensively in big games. This is why he's massively overrated.


Look, I'm not a KG guy and I'm definitely more on your side of the equation...but I also think KG really gets a raw deal for being drafted by a shit franchise with shit help for most of his prime...

Yea, that's partially true and no debate from me here.


Also, Malone did not do it when it mattered most in the playoffs. Dirk, overall, definitely was an elite playoff performer that came through enough...even though he had has rough times like everyone. But Malone? In the playoffs?

Malone took a team of older players to victories against Houston, San Antonio, and the Lakers in back to back years. Those teams they faced were stacked with talent and veteran experience. That's above and beyond more than anything KG can speak for in his own career, let alone his first 8 seasons in the league, which include his peak years.

How about 2000? KG was in his prime/peak then. How did both him and Malone do vs Portland?

KG vs. POR: 19/11/9/1/1 on 38% FG%
Malone vs POR: 24/8/4/1/1 on 44% FG%

The elimination game?

KG Game 4: 17/10/9/3/0 with 3 TOs on 25% FG%
Malone Game 5: 27/11/6/3/0 with 2 TOs on 44% FG%

How about in the 4th quarter?

Malone 4th Quarter: 8/2/1/2/0 on 4-9 (44%)
KG 4th Quarter: 4/3/2/0/0 on 1-7 (14%)

Malone was 37 years old keep in mind. It still amazes me how people think KG is anywhere near Malone. He's not. Malone was a leader, reliable, in addition to being a very good defensive player, great transition player, and athletic.


In the regular season for his career Malone was a 58% TS player...in the playoffs for his career Malone was a 53% TS player...that is absolutely not high efficiency in the playoffs. That is honestly quite poor given the type of player he was (finisher / scorer more than offense generator)...

Yea, still doesn't take away the fact that he was able to lead his team to success while KG wasn't. Malone's TS% was 53%....what was KG's in the playoffs from 1997-2004? I'll save you trouble - 51% :lol

[HoopsNY]

You went off on some super stupid and long diatribe. I think it’s pretty arguable after Barkley.

There's nothing "stupid" about what I posted. And it's hilarious that you would label it a "long diatribe" when it was a short response...and then you post this post which is even longer. You're pretty much projecting here.


Kevin Garnett and Tim Duncan play great defense. Only ones on the list to truly do so.


Barkley, Malone, and especially Dirk play no damn defense.

Yet Malone was All-Defensive 1st Team in a league with Rodman, Duncan, KG, McDyess, Oakley, Mason, Brown, Kemp, McKey, etc. Pretty sad how much Malone's defensive abilities are forgotten.


Dirk couldn’t even do that.

Dude, did you watch Dirk at all? Between 2002-10 (Dirk's peak), Dirk averaged 11.2 rebounds a game in the playoffs. He couldn't rebound? lol