NEVER FORGET - without a dynasty system, Wiggins was a bum just like Pippen

[3ba11]

Wiggins went from a perennial bum in Minnesota (and Lebron rejected him) to champion and possible HOF alongside Curry

He was a 20 ppg scorer before Curry, but being a 20 ppg champion makes him HOF

This is what happened with Pippen - he would've been considered a nobody like Minnesota Wiggins if he never latched onto a dynasty system in Chicago - outside the triangle, Pippen was a 14 ppg dunker that couldn't score

So winning a title with Wiggins as sidekick is 1000% unexpected and GOAT - Curry turned him into a champion after Lebron rejected him.

Curry and MJ's off-ball skillsets allow the kind of ball movement and dynasty system that elevates players like Wiggins or Pippen.

Otoh, Lebron's frontcourt ball-dominance lacks the teammate fits and development to elevate Wiggins to champion, so he sought superstar dominators like Wade, Kyrie, AD, Love and Bosh - all are regarded much higher than Wiggins

[Vino24]

Wiggins is guarding the opponents best player. Curry doesn’t have to guard anyone

[pandiani17]

Well, Curry has got multiple sidekicks this year. Klay, Draymond, Wiggins, Otto Porter, etc. They don't even need to use a high draft pick like Wiseman. It has to be one of the most loaded teams ever. lol @ young kids thinking Steph is doing something out of the ordinary.

[3ba11]

Wiggins is guarding the opponents best player. Curry doesn’t have to guard anyone


Tatum isn't a superstar and he's easy to guard because he sucks at 2's

He's just a regular 20-point scorer - no one gets worn out guarding him

And if we compare Wiggins to Pippen, we see that Pippen wasn't the primary defender on Drexler or Magic - MJ was

The point of this thread is to show that without Jordan, Pippen was worse than Minnesota Wiggins - Pippen was a 14 ppg dunker that couldn't score outside the triangle and dynasty chemistry

[SouBeachTalents]

Pippen didn’t average 14 ppg in literally any series during the Bulls title runs

OP not only flip flops constantly, but flat out and blatantly makes shit up :lol

https://y.yarn.co/d850ac54-805c-4a9f-a73c-5a3b8cab2a27_text.gif

[AlternativeAcc.]

Well, Curry has got multiple sidekicks this year. Klay, Draymond, Wiggins, Otto Porter, etc. They don't even need to use a high draft pick like Wiseman. It has to be one of the most loaded teams ever. lol @ young kids thinking Steph is doing something out of the ordinary.

They also have a guy named Poole who averages 26/5/5 on 64% TS when curry doesn't play... not even Tatum is capable of that

So the warriors 4th option is > Celtics best player


What were seeing in the finals is a MASSIVE talent and EXPERIENCE advantage for the warriors... the series being close is a disappointment

Curry ball is always underachieving and disappoints, like last year when they were lottery

If Tatum was even decent this series, Celtics would've won in 6

So Wiggins is FMVP for making him look like a G leaguer

[3ba11]

Pippen didn’t average 14 ppg in literally any series during the Bulls title runs

OP not only flip flops constantly, but flat out and blatantly makes shit up :lol

https://y.yarn.co/d850ac54-805c-4a9f-a73c-5a3b8cab2a27_text.gif


No you have poor reading comp

The historical record shows that outside the triangle, Pippen was a 14 ppg dunker that couldn't score - see 89' and 99'

Similarly, Wiggins was a bum in Minnesota outside of Curry's dynasty system and skillset

[Vino24]

Historical record shows if there is no Pip then there is no chip

[3ba11]

Historical record shows if there is no Pip then there is no chip


The historical record shows that Pippen was a bum and carried in every series of his career, while Lebron needed multiple Pippen's that could lead him in scoring for entire playoff runs

[Vino24]

Your boi Kobe was “Pippen” for Shaq.

[red1]

this nikka wastes no time :roll:


wiggins barely wins a few playoff games and the insecure hate already begins

[3ba11]

Your boi Kobe was “Pippen” for Shaq.


Yes and then he won 2 titles with Bosh, I mean Pau as his sidekick, while defeating maximum defensive attention (carrying scoring load in Finals)

That's more impressive than any of Lebron's titles

[SouBeachTalents]

No you have poor reading comp

The historical record shows that outside the triangle, Pippen was a 14 ppg dunker that couldn't score - see 89' and 99'

Similarly, Wiggins was a bum in Minnesota outside of Curry's dynasty system and skillset
Oh ok, so only include years he wasn’t in his prime. Fakkit :lol

[LeGoat4Life]

That's what Chef Dingo does

He helps his teammates get better

The Curry System :cheers:

[3ba11]

.
Thread Cliffs


Wiggins went from a perennial bum in Minnesota (and Lebron rejected him) to champion and possible HOF alongside Curry

He was a 20 ppg scorer before Curry, but being a 20 ppg champion makes him HOF

This is what happened with Pippen - he would've been considered a nobody like Minnesota Wiggins if he never latched onto a dynasty system in Chicago - outside the triangle, Pippen was a 14 ppg dunker that couldn't score

[AlternativeAcc.]

That's what Chef Dingo does

He helps his teammates get better

The Curry System :cheers:

He's ruined Poole who is a superstar when curry doesn't play

Warriors 4th option is more dynamic than Celtics best player.

Curry system was lottery last year, so it sucks

[Shooter]

Wiggins is guarding the opponents best player. Curry doesn’t have to guard anyone

Sounds like MJ and Pip :lol

MJ let Pippen do all the defensive work while he chucked 35 shots per game wondering why he scored more points than Pippen :lol

[3ba11]

Sounds like MJ and Pip :lol

MJ let Pippen do all the defensive work while he chucked 35 shots per game wondering why he scored more points than Pippen :lol


Everyone knows that MJ was the primary defender on Magic, Drexler, Payton and Isiah, while Pippen usually didn't guard the opponent's best player

The only exception is Penny, who torched Pippen twice... And also Glen Rice, who would be a star in today's game but wasn't that great back then.

Ultimately, Pippen would be a nobody just like Minnesota Wiggins if he hadn't got lucky by winning titles alongside MJ... Now Curry is doing the same thing with Wiggins - he's turning a perennial nobody into a HOF champion

Wiggins and Pippen are among the luckiest players ever

[Shooter]

Everyone knows that MJ was the primary defender on Magic, Drexler, Payton and Isiah, while Pippen usually didn't guard the opponent's best player

The only exception is Penny, who torched Pippen twice... And also Glen Rice, who would be a star in today's game but wasn't that great back then.

Ultimately, Pippen would be a nobody just like Minnesota Wiggins if he hadn't got lucky by winning titles alongside MJ... Now Curry is doing the same thing with Wiggins - he's turning a perennial nobody into a HOF champion

Wiggins and Pippen are among the luckiest players ever

Didnt Pippen have a better career without MJ than MJ did without Pippen?

Isn't 1-9 real? :lol

NEXT

[StrongLurk]

NEVER FORGET - OP is an extremely insecure loser.

[3ba11]

NEVER FORGET - OP is an extremely insecure loser.


Don't you get tired of being wrong and having to post some lame deflection like you just did?

Why not learn from your mistakes..

In this case, it's clear that some guys are just lucky by landing alongside a goat player and dynasty system development - the ensuing rings give them HOF status as a 20 ppg champion, rather than just a 20 ppg player (dime a dozen)

[John8204]

Didnt Pippen have a better career without MJ than MJ did without Pippen?

Isn't 1-9 real? :lol

NEXT

Yeah he made the conference finals without MJ...MJ like Durant built his special team in Washington and still failed.

[StrongLurk]

Don't you get tired of being wrong and having to post some lame deflection like you just did?

Why not learn from your mistakes..

In this case, it's clear that some guys are just lucky by landing alongside a goat player and dynasty system development - the ensuing rings give them HOF status as a 20 ppg champion, rather than just a 20 ppg player (dime a dozen)

I'm addressing your unhealthy behavior. Get some help.

[ShawkFactory]

It's not that he was bum, it's that he wasn't good enough to be the best or second best guy on a championship team. What he's doing in this series is certainly impressive and not something that I expected from him honestly, particularly on defense and the glass. But I still don't think the Celtics are paying him quite as much attention as they are Klay.

[Shooter]

Yeah he made the conference finals without MJ...MJ like Durant built his special team in Washington and still failed.

SHUT it DOWN!!

[Phoenix]

New additions in bold...

Wiggins>Pippen ( who didn't see this one coming?)
Poor reading comprehension
05 Hughes
89 Pippen
09 Mo
95 finals Horry
Criteria :confusedshrug:
Curry is most overrated ever....I mean top 5 GOAT
Giannis is Pippen-level bum.... I mean top 10 GOAT
Oubre
I have I N T E G R I T Y
Brand of Ball
Organic chips
Talent-based winning
Weak jumpshooting
Beginner format
Defeating maximum defensive attention
https://m.media-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BZGQwMDQyZGQtMWI5ZC00ZjgyLWE3Y2MtMjZjZjQ4MDk4ZD NkXkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyNzU1NzE3NTg@._V1_QL75_UX500_CR0, 47,500,281_.jpg

[Ne 1]

Another lie from 3ball.

Wiggins was mediocre in Minnesota for 8 seasons. Known as the worst contract in the NBA just a few years ago.

He was not ready at (19) to immediately start playing a role for a championship team.

Cleveland won anyway. So Wiggins presence wasn’t really needed.

[3ba11]

Another lie from 3ball.

Wiggins was mediocre in Minnesota for 8 seasons. Known as the worst contract in the NBA just a few years ago.

He was not ready at (19) to immediately start playing a role for a championship team.

Cleveland won anyway. So Wiggins presence wasn’t really needed.


Wiggins was needed to get Love, who was superior to Wiggins and gave the Cavs a big 3 super-team with preseason favorite status in 15' and 16' (the on paper, talent favorite)..

Unfortunately, a weak brand of ball caused this favored talent to underacheive - Lebron's hand-picked, preseason favorites fell to Finals underdog or loser for 6 straight years (11-16') except the Ray Allen miracle.

Finally, Wiggins averaged 21 on 46% in 2016 when the Cavs won, but that's only enough to win with Curry - Lebron's weaker brand of ball needs more talent, such as all-time scoring sidekicks that can match or lead him in scoring for entire playoff runs (11' Wade, 16' Kyrie, 20' AD)

[Axe]

Wiggins was needed to get Love, who was superior to Wiggins and gave the Cavs a big 3 super-team with preseason favorite status in 15' and 16' (the on paper, talent favorite)..

Unfortunately, a weak brand of ball caused this favored talent to underacheive - Lebron's hand-picked, preseason favorites fell to Finals underdog or loser for 6 straight years (11-16') except the Ray Allen miracle.

Finally, Wiggins averaged 21 on 46% in 2016 when the Cavs won, but that's only enough to win with Curry - Lebron's weaker brand of ball needs more talent, such as all-time scoring sidekicks that can match or lead him in scoring for entire playoff runs (11' Wade, 16' Kyrie, 20' AD)
No pip?

[3ba11]

:facepalm:

[1987_Lakers]

No pip?

No Chip

[3ba11]

No Chip


Forget a chip - Pip couldn't even average 15 ppg without the triangle

8 ppg in 88'

14 in 89'

16 in 90'

No one thought MJ would ever win with that or anything because it was a big man's league.. But MJ took over the big man's league just like he'd take over today's 3-point league

[Axe]

1991 pippen > 2000 kobe

[3ba11]

Why didn't Pippen win in Houston or Portland?

He had a 17 point lead in the 4th of Game 7, so there's no better opportunity than that, yet he found a way via historic choke job.

Not only couldn't he win in Houston or Portland, but he wasn't even GOOD outside the triangle and dynasty system.. He simply luckboxed the timing to land alongside the scoring champ/DPOY and dynasty chemistry development.. A garbage system/transition player that couldn't match 95' Horry in 6 Finals (0/6).

[Axe]

Before you said doug collins is better than phil jackson because he didn't implement the triangle when he coached his players and won zero rings while the latter led multiple players to multiple chips with the system. Then now you're scapegoating pippen for being ringless after the 90s dynasty because he wasn't able to play for another team that also utilized it? Hilarious af. :kobe:

[3ba11]

Before you said doug collins is better than phil jackson because he didn't implement the triangle when he coached his players and won zero rings while the latter led multiple players to multiple chips with the system. Then now you're scapegoating pippen for being ringless after the 90s dynasty because he wasn't able to play for another team that also utilized it? Hilarious af. :kobe:


You're just lying and making shit up because you can't respond to anything I posted

I did say any of that

Pippen was nothing outside the triangle - that's a fact that you can't respond to and I understand because it's the historical record..

Btw, Pippen wasn't much in the triangle either but clearly better than outside the triangle, where he was nowhere near Minnesota Wiggins tbh... :confusedshrug:

[Axe]

You're just lying and making shit up because you can't respond to anything I posted

I did say any of that

Pippen was nothing outside the triangle - that's a fact that you can't respond to and I understand because it's the historical record..

Btw, Pippen wasn't much in the triangle either but clearly better than outside the triangle
Don't lie to us now. You said that in one of the past threads before during the 2020 lockdown and while Roundball Rock was still around here posting anti-mj stuff. :biggums:

[3ba11]

.
Stats outside of dynasty chemistry/system:


Minnesota Wiggins............ 21 ppg on 46%
Pippen outside triangle..... 14 ppg dunker that couldn't score


CONCLUSION: Curry is great for turning a perennial 20 ppg scorer like Wiggins into a champion, while MJ is GOAT for turning a hustler/transition player and low-producer like Pippen into 6-time champion

[1987_Lakers]

.
Stats outside of dynasty chemistry/system:


Minnesota Wiggins............ 21 ppg on 46%
Pippen outside triangle..... 14 ppg dunker that couldn't score


CONCLUSION: Curry is great for turning a perennial 20 ppg scorer like Wiggins into a champion, while MJ is GOAT for turning a hustler/transition player and low-producer like Pippen into 6-time champion

oubre

[3ba11]

oubre


would've been an animal alongside Kobe or MJ - somewhere in between prime Ron Harper and the old Harper that won 4 titles with Kobe/MJ

[Axe]

oubre
> klay

[3ba11]

.
Thread Cliffs


How many rings for Curry/Wiggins if Wiggins joins Curry in 2015?

6?

6/6?

Maybe 5 rings because it took Curry a couple years win with Wiggins

Ultimately, Wiggins would've been a nobody in Minnesota for his whole career and is very lucky to land alongside Curry, just like Pippen was lucky to land alongside MJ - Pippen would've been a nobody like Minnesota Wiggins without landing alongside MJ

[Phoenix]

Finally, Wiggins averaged 21 on 46% in 2016 when the Cavs won, but that's only enough to win with Curry - Lebron's weaker brand of ball needs more talent, such as all-time scoring sidekicks that can match or lead him in scoring for entire playoff runs (11' Wade, 16' Kyrie, 20' AD)

This is classic 3tard logic. Picking out stats in one context and thinking they applied in another. Just because he averaged 21ppg on a 29 win team doesn't mean you just drop him onto an exponentially better one and he does the same shit. Hell in 2020 he averaged 22ppg on the Wolves before getting traded to the Warriors and dropping 19ppg post-trade, then 19ppg again for the 2021 season. His average dropped in Golden state by 3ppg, and that was with Klay out....did Curry-ball 'crater his stats'? This is what happens when you just throw ppg shit at the wall.

When Pippen dropped numbers like that, you called him a shit scorer. He had 4 out of 6 finals averaging more than Wiggins in this one, but you couldn't wait for whatever angle you could apply to say 'player X is better than Pippen' in service to your maniacal Jordan ramblings. MJs legacy deserves better than having a piece of shit like you gatekeeping it.

Your canned copy and paste auto-replies have earned you the moniker of 3auto-bot.

https://c.tenor.com/2aUmLEh9z7QAAAAC/transformers-bumpers.gif

[tpols]

It is pretty ironic LeBron shipped Wiggins away for Love when Wiggins could have brought more value with his defense. The thing is he was a rookie and LeBron wanted to win immediately and not take the time to help him develop so he threw him aside for a ready made 26/14 All NBA talent.

[ShawkFactory]

would've been an animal alongside Kobe or MJ - somewhere in between prime Ron Harper and the old Harper that won 4 titles with Kobe/MJ

So you're saying that the like 6th best player on the second 3peat Bulls was an "animal". But then say Jordan had no help.

Interesting.

[SouBeachTalents]

So you're saying that the like 6th best player on the second 3peat Bulls was an "animal". But then say Jordan had no help.

Interesting.
3 HOF teammates, a HOF coach, and a Wiggins esque player to boot.

Stacked AF

[LeGoat4Life]

He's ruined Poole who is a superstar when curry doesn't play

Warriors 4th option is more dynamic than Celtics best player.

Curry system was lottery last year, so it sucks

Still better than the Lebron system that lead an all star stacked team to the lottery

[FKAri]

Still better than the Lebron system that lead an all star stacked team to the lottery

Same system that won a ring with 0 all-stars? A very dynamic system indeed. :oldlol:

[3ba11]

It is pretty ironic LeBron shipped Wiggins away for Love when Wiggins could have brought more value with his defense. The thing is he was a rookie and LeBron wanted to win immediately and not take the time to help him develop so he threw him aside for a ready made 26/14 All NBA talent.


Wiggins wasn't an 8 ppg project like rookie Pippen - Wiggins was a stud right away - he's been getting the same 17-24 ppg with good efficiency since his rookie and early years.

The initial point was that he's always been a 20 ppg player (dime a dozen), but now he's a 20 ppg champion (HOF).. It's the same thing with Pippen - he would've been a nobody just like Wiggins in Minnesota if he hadn't latched onto a goat player and dynasty system like Wiggins did.. This made him a champion and HOF instead of the 14 ppg bum that he was outside the triangle (which is much worse than Minnesota Wiggins infact).

But even though Wiggins was instantly a 20 ppg player and not an 8-point rookie project like Pippen, it's a moot point because when did Lebron develop a young player?.... Hughes? Ingram?.. Ball?... Bosh?

Lebron certainly had chances, but Bosh didn't turn into a stud alongside Lebron like Pau did alongside Kobe, and Hughes cratered from a career season in 05', while Ingram/Kuzma saw a 1-year drop across the board alongside Lebron (PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48).. Other players that are similar to Wiggins (Jamison) also cratered... :confusedshrug:

His frontcourt ball-dominance imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, and therefore lacks the teammate development, teammates fits, and brand of ball to win organically.. Otoh, Curry and MJ are off-ball experts with the teammate development/chemistry to develop young players and win organically.

[ShawkFactory]

Wiggins wasn't an 8 ppg project like rookie Pippen - Wiggins was a stud right away - he's been getting the same 17-24 ppg with good efficiency since his rookie and early years.

The initial point was that he's always been a 20 ppg player (dime a dozen), but now he's a 20 ppg champion (HOF).. It's the same thing with Pippen - he would've been a nobody just like Wiggins in Minnesota if he hadn't latched onto a goat player and dynasty system like Wiggins did.. This made him a champion and HOF instead of the 14 ppg bum that he was outside the triangle (which is much worse than Minnesota Wiggins infact).

But even though Wiggins was instantly a 20 ppg player and not an 8-point rookie project like Pippen, it's a moot point because when did Lebron develop a young player?.... Hughes? Ingram?.. Ball?... Bosh?

Lebron certainly had chances, but Bosh didn't turn into a stud alongside Lebron like Pau did alongside Kobe, and Hughes cratered from a career season in 05', while Ingram/Kuzma saw a 1-year drop across the board alongside Lebron (PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48).. Other players that are similar to Wiggins (Jamison) also cratered... :confusedshrug:

His frontcourt ball-dominance imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, and therefore lacks the teammate development, teammates fits, and brand of ball to win organically.. Otoh, Curry and MJ are off-ball experts with the teammate development/chemistry to develop young players and win organically.

You're talking about Curry developing people (presumably Wiggins) 4 paragraphs after saying that Wiggins was a stud right away.

[3ba11]

You're talking about Curry developing people (presumably Wiggins) 4 paragraphs after saying that Wiggins was a stud right away.


Curry developed Klay, Poole, Draymond, and more just like MJ developed Pippen, Grant, BJ and others

Everyone grew on their watch, while no one grows alongside Lebron's "stand in the corner" skillset..

The only player-type that doesn't crater alongside Lebron are elite shooters, which speaks to his rudimentary skillset and weak fundamentals

[SouBeachTalents]

Curry developed Klay, Poole, Draymond, and more just like MJ developed Pippen, Grant, BJ and others

Everyone grew on their watch, while no one grows alongside Lebron's "stand in the corner" skillset
AD & Kyrie undoubtedly played their best ball with LeBron.

[ShawkFactory]

Curry developed Klay, Poole, Draymond, and more just like MJ developed Pippen, Grant, BJ and others

:lol

[3ba11]

AD & Kyrie undoubtedly played their best ball with LeBron.


They were already stars

AD was #3 all-time in PER, while his low seed had already outperformed Lebron's high seed against the Warriors in 2018

Meanwhile, Kyrie was all-star MVP in 2014

No young player grew into a star in his watch, and the only player type that doesn't crater alongside Lebron are elite shooters, which speaks to his rudimentary skillset and weak fundamentals

Again, Lebron's frontcourt ball-dominance imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, and therefore lacks the teammate development, teammates fits, and brand of ball to win organically.. Otoh, Curry and MJ are off-ball experts with the teammate development/chemistry to develop young players and win organically.

[1987_Lakers]

Curry developed Klay, Poole, Draymond, and more just like MJ developed Pippen, Grant, BJ and others

Everyone grew on their watch, while no one grows alongside Lebron's "stand in the corner" skillset..

The only player-type that doesn't crater alongside Lebron are elite shooters, which speaks to his rudimentary skillset and weak fundamentals

"Curry destroyed Oubre's game" 3ball

:lol

[DMAVS41]

This not true...at least the point you're trying to make isn't...Pippen wasn't a bum...he was one of the best players ever.

As someone that debated whether Wiggins should be considered bad or not good at basketball during the 18 and 19 seasons....which I think he was...he started to completely transform his game during the 2020 season. It was like he was reading the criticisms against him and instead of being hard headed like most players...he just changed. He stopped taking bad long 2's, he attacked the basket more, he created for teammates more often, he shot more 3's, he tried harder to rebound...and he started to show signs staying engaged throughout the game at a much higher level....his overall effort also noticeably increased.

Now, on the Warriors...in part because of the situation he's in for sure...and in part because he's continued to grow...he's maintained improvement in most of the areas above and has finally put in the work to become a quality defender.

Yes, the Warriors have helped him, but Wiggins deserves most of the credit. Very rarely do you see someone transform their game like he has...he's turned himself into one of the best 3/D role players in the league...and the added bonus of a guy like Wiggins is he has a level of talent / potential...that almost none of those role players have...so he has an extra gear in him.

[Shooter]

Curry developed Klay, Poole, Draymond, and more just like MJ developed Pippen, Grant, BJ and others

Everyone grew on their watch, while no one grows alongside Lebron's "stand in the corner" skillset..

The only player-type that doesn't crater alongside Lebron are elite shooters, which speaks to his rudimentary skillset and weak fundamentals

MJ was 1-9 before Pippen came around.

MJ NEVER made it out of the 1st round before Pippen came along.

So really, who developed who now? :lol Rookie

[SouBeachTalents]

This not true...at least the point you're trying to make isn't...Pippen wasn't a bum...he was one of the best players ever.

As someone that debated whether Wiggins should be considered bad or not good at basketball during the 18 and 19 seasons....which I think he was...he started to completely transform his game during the 2020 season. It was like he was reading the criticisms against him and instead of being hard headed like most players...he just changed. He stopped taking bad long 2's, he attacked the basket more, he created for teammates more often, he shot more 3's, he tried harder to rebound...and he started to show signs staying engaged throughout the game at a much higher level....his overall effort also noticeably increased.

Now, on the Warriors...in part because of the situation he's in for sure...and in part because he's continued to grow...he's maintained improvement in most of the areas above and has finally put in the work to become a quality defender.

Yes, the Warriors have helped him, but Wiggins deserves most of the credit. Very rarely do you see someone transform their game like he has...he's turned himself into one of the best 3/D role players in the league...and the added bonus of a guy like Wiggins is he has a level of talent / potential...that almost none of those role players have...so he has an extra gear in him.
You read a post like this and compare it to 3ball's, the disparity in comprehension and knowledge is staggering. This is someone you can tell actually watches basketball and understands the game, and doesn't just conjure up their "analysis" from talking points and & a statsheet.

[3ba11]

This not true...at least the point you're trying to make isn't...Pippen wasn't a bum...he was one of the best players ever.

As someone that debated whether Wiggins should be considered bad or not good at basketball during the 18 and 19 seasons....which I think he was...he started to completely transform his game during the 2020 season. It was like he was reading the criticisms against him and instead of being hard headed like most players...he just changed. He stopped taking bad long 2's, he attacked the basket more, he created for teammates more often, he shot more 3's, he tried harder to rebound...and he started to show signs staying engaged throughout the game at a much higher level....his overall effort also noticeably increased.

Now, on the Warriors...in part because of the situation he's in for sure...and in part because he's continued to grow...he's maintained improvement in most of the areas above and has finally put in the work to become a quality defender.

Yes, the Warriors have helped him, but Wiggins deserves most of the credit. Very rarely do you see someone transform their game like he has...he's turned himself into one of the best 3/D role players in the league...and the added bonus of a guy like Wiggins is he has a level of talent / potential...that almost none of those role players have...so he has an extra gear in him.


You haven't countered the point that Wiggins was nothing before joining Curry - he wasn't even an all-star and now he'll make HOF

If Wiggins had stayed in Minnesota, he would've been like Mitch Richmond - a nobody - and Richmond was a perennial all-star, so Wiggins wouldn't even be on Richmond's level because Wiggins had never made an all-star game pre-Curry

But this is what you guys do - you'll write a long essay to claim that Wiggins was infact going to make HOF all along in Minnesota.. It reveals your low character and lack of spine . Wiggins has demonstrated that Pippen was nothing without the system, so you feel the need to rewrite history and pretend that Wiggins was a perennial all-star before joining Curry.

[Hey Yo]

They were already stars

AD was #3 all-time in PER, while his low seed had already outperformed Lebron's high seed against the Warriors in 2018

Meanwhile, Kyrie was all-star MVP in 2014

No young player grew into a star in his watch, and the only player type that doesn't crater alongside Lebron are elite shooters, which speaks to his rudimentary skillset and weak fundamentals

Again, Lebron's frontcourt ball-dominance imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, and therefore lacks the teammate development, teammates fits, and brand of ball to win organically.. Otoh, Curry and MJ are off-ball experts with the teammate development/chemistry to develop young players and win organically.

LOL @ thinking if you win an All-star MVP, you're a star. Kyrie lead the Cavs to the least amount of wins in the league from 2011-14.

[ShawkFactory]

You haven't countered the point that Wiggins was nothing before joining Curry - he wasn't even an all-star and now he'll make HOF

If Wiggins had stayed in Minnesota, he would've been like Mitch Richmond - a nobody - and Richmond was a perennial all-star, so Wiggins wouldn't even be on Richmond's level because Wiggins had never made an all-star game pre-Curry

But this is what you guys do - you'll write a long essay to claim that Wiggins was infact going to make HOF all along in Minnesota.. It reveals your low character and lack of spine . Wiggins has demonstrated that Pippen was nothing without the system, so you feel the need to rewrite history and pretend that Wiggins was a perennial all-star before joining Curry.

So you’re not saying that the system actually made Wiggins better. Just more noticed.

Got it.

[3ba11]

So you’re not saying that the system actually made Wiggins better. Just more noticed.

Got it.


Yes for the most part - Wiggins was already producing at this level before joining Curry - Curry's winning system turns him from a nobody into HOF

but it doesn't always work this way because the system carried a guy like Pippen (he was nothing outside the system).

Ultimately, the winning spotlight inflates sidekicks... People forget that Hornacek had higher PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48, efficiency and nearly 3 times the assists of Klay - aka sidekick champions like Wiggins, Klay or Pippen play at a Hornacek or Iggy or level, but the winning spotlight inflates them to HOF.




.

Got it


.


It's more rare to win with a secondary scorer like Lowry, Klay or Pippen than an all-time scorer like Kareem, Wade, AD, Kyrie or Worthy.. Ball-dominators like Lebron or Luka lack sufficient brand at high scoring levels to beat good teams (too ball-dominant), so they need all-time scorers at sidekick that can relieve the scoring burden and match them for entire playoff runs (11', 16', 20')..

Otoh, the high scoring of off-ball players like Curry or MJ is partially-assisted - this elevates teammate role and brand, so they can win with high scoring burden and secondary scorers at sidekick.

[DMAVS41]

You haven't countered the point that Wiggins was nothing before joining Curry - he wasn't even an all-star and now he'll make HOF

If Wiggins had stayed in Minnesota, he would've been like Mitch Richmond - a nobody - and Richmond was a perennial all-star, so Wiggins wouldn't even be on Richmond's level because Wiggins had never made an all-star game pre-Curry

But this is what you guys do - you'll write a long essay to claim that Wiggins was infact going to make HOF all along in Minnesota.. It reveals your low character and lack of spine . Wiggins has demonstrated that Pippen was nothing without the system, so you feel the need to rewrite history and pretend that Wiggins was a perennial all-star before joining Curry.

Wiggins is probably not going to make the HOF and of course he never would have if he stayed in Minnesota...even with his improvement.

What you need to realize is that if Wiggins could have joined the Mavs / Lakers / Nets / Bucks / Nuggets...etc...and continued to transform his game like he did in his last year in Minny...and defended / rebounded like he currently is...nothing would be different.

His offensive transformation already happened in Minnesota. Someone finally got through to him to stop taking shitty long 2's, shoot more 3's, attack more, and create for teammates more...that happened in 2020 before he was traded. He also started to rebound harder and defend harder...although he has gotten a lot better in those areas since joining the Warriors.

All you are actually arguing is that a player benefitted from going to better circumstances. Wow...amazing insight...a player benefitted from leaving a shit franchise where wasn't in his optimal role to go play on a team that was better and a better fit for him...shocking!

[3ba11]

Wiggins is probably not going to make the HOF and of course he never would have if he stayed in Minnesota...even with his improvement.

What you need to realize is that if Wiggins could have joined the Mavs / Lakers / Nets / Bucks / Nuggets...etc...and continued to transform his game like he did in his last year in Minny...and defended / rebounded like he currently is...nothing would be different.

His offensive transformation already happened in Minnesota. Someone finally got through to him to stop taking shitty long 2's, shoot more 3's, attack more, and create for teammates more...that happened in 2020 before he was traded. He also started to rebound harder and defend harder...although he has gotten a lot better in those areas since joining the Warriors.

All you are actually arguing is that a player benefitted from going to better circumstances. Wow...amazing insight...a player benefitted from leaving a shit franchise where wasn't in his optimal role to go play on a team that was better and a better fit for him...shocking!


Wiggins tweaked his game to eliminate the mid-range but every young player does that in today's game - so how many secondary-level producers like Wiggins, Ingram, or Kuzma can become good 3-and-D players in the Warriors' system?.. How many guys could get 16-18 ppg by making shots in a proven system when it's their turn??

Tons of secondary producers could do that - not just Wiggins or Pippen - and you certainly don't need superstars or all-time scorers that routinely get 25-30 like Wade, AD, or Kyrie.

And that's the point - only ball-dominators need those kind of all-time scorers at sidekick.. When ball-dominators carry the scoring burden, they lack the brand of ball to beat good teams - since they can't beat good teams while carrying the scoring burden, they need all-time scorers at sidekick like Kareem, Wade, AD or Kyrie..

Otoh, the high scoring for off-ball players like Curry or MJ is partially-assisted - this elevates teammate role and brand, so they can win with high scoring burden and secondary scorers at sidekick.. This is why off-ball guys like Curry/MJ/Kobe/Bird have defeated maximum defensive attention (carried scoring load in Finals)

[ShawkFactory]

Yes for the most part - Wiggins was already producing at this level before joining Curry - Curry's winning system turns him from a nobody into HOF

but it doesn't always work this way because the system carried a guy like Pippen (he was nothing outside the system).

Ultimately, the winning spotlight inflates sidekicks... People forget that Hornacek had higher PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48, efficiency and nearly 3 times the assists of Klay - aka sidekick champions like Wiggins, Klay or Pippen play at a Hornacek or Iggy or level, but the winning spotlight inflates them to HOF.






It's more rare to win with a secondary scorer like Lowry, Klay or Pippen than an all-time scorer like Kareem, Wade, AD, Kyrie or Worthy.. Ball-dominators like Lebron or Luka lack sufficient brand at high scoring levels to beat good teams (too ball-dominant), so they need all-time scorers at sidekick that can relieve the scoring burden and match them for entire playoff runs (11', 16', 20')..

Otoh, the high scoring of off-ball players like Curry or MJ is partially-assisted - this elevates teammate role and brand, so they can win with high scoring burden and secondary scorers at sidekick.

But you've already said that it isn't the role or brand making Wiggins better. Only the spotlight.

Which is it?

[3ba11]

But you've already said that it isn't the role or brand making Wiggins better. Only the spotlight.

Which is it?


Unlike the all-time scorers like Wade, AD or Kyrie that can match their 1st option for entire playoff runs, secondary producers like Wiggins and Pippen need their 1st option to carry the scoring load..

But only off-ball players like Curry/MJ can carry the scoring load with sufficient brand to beat good teams, so only they can win chips with secondary producers like Wiggins or Pippen..

Otoh, ball-dominators like Luka/Lebron lack sufficient brand at high scoring levels to beat good teams and therefore need all-time scorers at sidekick to lessen the burden.

[tpols]

Anybody saying Wiggins didn't dramatically improve with the warriors is lying. He made his first and only All Star game in 2022. He made 0 on the Wolves.

And its not even about an improvement in skill or selection. Its about the increase in motor and aggressiveness.

Wiggins had plenty of help in Minnesota... He had Jimmy ****ing Butler and KAT at one point. So it wasn't an issue of help. It was an issue of culture and play style. The Warriors have drawn way too much out of cast away players over the years ~ Iggy, Livingston, Poole, Looney, Dray, GP2, mcgee and now Wiggins to not realize that they draw the most juice out of any given player. All these guys were either way late draft picks or throwaway underachievers when the dubs got them.

[DMAVS41]

Wiggins tweaked his game to eliminate the mid-range but every young player does that in today's game - so how many secondary-level producers like Wiggins, Ingram, or Kuzma can become good 3-and-D players in the Warriors' system?.. How many guys could get 16-18 ppg by making shots in a proven system when it's their turn??

Tons of secondary producers could do that - not just Wiggins or Pippen - and you certainly don't need superstars or all-time scorers that routinely get 25-30 like Wade, AD, or Kyrie.

And that's the point - only ball-dominators need those kind of all-time scorers at sidekick.. When ball-dominators carry the scoring burden, they lack the brand of ball to beat good teams - since they can't beat good teams while carrying the scoring burden, they need all-time scorers at sidekick like Kareem, Wade, AD or Kyrie..

Otoh, the high scoring for off-ball players like Curry or MJ is partially-assisted - this elevates teammate role and brand, so they can win with high scoring burden and secondary scorers at sidekick.. This is why off-ball guys like Curry/MJ/Kobe/Bird have defeated maximum defensive attention (carried scoring load in Finals)

This literally does not address anything I said and I have no idea what point you think you're making.

[DMAVS41]

Anybody saying Wiggins didn't dramatically improve with the warriors is lying. He made his first and only All Star game in 2022. He made 0 on the Wolves.

And its not even about an improvement in skill or selection. Its about the increase in motor and aggressiveness.

Wiggins had plenty of help in Minnesota... He had Jimmy ****ing Butler and KAT at one point. So it wasn't an issue of help. It was an issue of culture and play style. The Warriors have drawn way too much out of cast away players over the years ~ Iggy, Livingston, Poole, Looney, Dray, GP2, mcgee and now Wiggins to not realize that they draw the most juice out of any given player. All these guys were either way late draft picks or throwaway underachievers when the dubs got them.

Wiggins made dramatic improvements to his game before he ever got traded. This is true to anyone that paid attention to the difference in 2020 from the previous 2 years.

Now, you are absolutely correct that he improved his aggressiveness, defense, and rebounding motor on the Warriors.

Nobody, at least not me, is arguing that Wiggins used to be good on the Wolves...I argued the exact opposite during 18 and 19 where I legit think it was fair to call him a bad player. He took horrible shots, didn't score efficiently, didn't attack the basket, didn't create for others, was extremely passive for long stretches, did not hustle, did not defend well, and did not rebound...and all his teams did was lose. It is why so many that didn't pay attention are shocked at the player we currently see and why the Wolves had to give up a top pick and Wiggins to get DLO...the Wiggins contract had negative value then.

My only point...which is just a fact...is that Wiggins started to completely transform his game, especially offensively, in the 2020 season before he was traded.

[ShawkFactory]

Anybody saying Wiggins didn't dramatically improve with the warriors is lying. He made his first and only All Star game in 2022. He made 0 on the Wolves.

And its not even about an improvement in skill or selection. Its about the increase in motor and aggressiveness.

Wiggins had plenty of help in Minnesota... He had Jimmy ****ing Butler and KAT at one point. So it wasn't an issue of help. It was an issue of culture and play style. The Warriors have drawn way too much out of cast away players over the years ~ Iggy, Livingston, Poole, Looney, Dray, GP2, mcgee and now Wiggins to not realize that they draw the most juice out of any given player. All these guys were either way late draft picks or throwaway underachievers when the dubs got them.

I don’t think anyone said that but the all star game invitation argument is A1 material.

[Phoenix]

This literally does not address anything I said and I have no idea what point you think you're making.

That's par for the course. You wrote something that he doesn't have an on the fly response to, so he'll just go into his bag of pre-canned replies.

[tpols]

Wiggins made dramatic improvements to his game before he ever got traded. This is true to anyone that paid attention to the difference in 2020 from the previous 2 years.

Now, you are absolutely correct that he improved his aggressiveness, defense, and rebounding motor on the Warriors.

Nobody, at least not me, is arguing that Wiggins used to be good on the Wolves...I argued the exact opposite during 18 and 19 where I legit think it was fair to call him a bad player. He took horrible shots, didn't score efficiently, didn't attack the basket, didn't create for others, was extremely passive for long stretches, did not hustle, did not defend well, and did not rebound...and all his teams did was lose. It is why so many that didn't pay attention are shocked at the player we currently see and why the Wolves had to give up a top pick and Wiggins to get DLO...the Wiggins contract had negative value then.

My only point...which is just a fact...is that Wiggins started to completely transform his game, especially offensively, in the 2020 season before he was traded.

The aggressiveness, defense and rebounding motor have been the key though. Not switching from long 2s to 3s. Wiggins hasn't even shot well from 3 in these finals.

[DMAVS41]

The aggressiveness, defense and rebounding motor have been the key though. Not switching from long 2s to 3s. Wiggins hasn't even shot well from 3 in these finals.

I'm talking about overall as a player...not just what is going on in a singular series.

Yes...his defense / rebounding / effort have all continued to get better and better since joining the Warriors. Part of that is playing on a great team, of course, but we shouldn't fail to give Wiggins most of the credit here. He did start doing a little of that in 2020 before he was traded. Either someone finally got to him that off-season or he made the decision himself to change his game.

Either way...he's turned himself into an extremely valuable wing offensive / defensive player and has the added bonus of a talent level that very few guys like that have.

Yes, Curry / Warriors have helped, but if he was playing how he played in 18 and 19...he'd either have been traded or he'd be on the bench...and that is why I think he deserves most of the credit.

[ShawkFactory]

I'm talking about overall as a player...not just what is going on in a singular series.

Yes...his defense / rebounding / effort have all continued to get better and better since joining the Warriors. Part of that is playing on a great team, of course, but we shouldn't fail to give Wiggins most of the credit here. He did start doing a little of that in 2020 before he was traded. Either someone finally got to him that off-season or he made the decision himself to change his game.

Either way...he's turned himself into an extremely valuable wing offensive / defensive player and has the added bonus of a talent level that very few guys like that have.

Yes, Curry / Warriors have helped, but if he was playing how he played in 18 and 19...he'd either have been traded or he'd be on the bench...and that is why I think he deserves most of the credit.

This is too much given that apparently the best player on a team makes or breaks every other guy who plays with them.

[John8204]

Wiggins made dramatic improvements to his game before he ever got traded. This is true to anyone that paid attention to the difference in 2020 from the previous 2 years.

Now, you are absolutely correct that he improved his aggressiveness, defense, and rebounding motor on the Warriors.

Nobody, at least not me, is arguing that Wiggins used to be good on the Wolves...I argued the exact opposite during 18 and 19 where I legit think it was fair to call him a bad player. He took horrible shots, didn't score efficiently, didn't attack the basket, didn't create for others, was extremely passive for long stretches, did not hustle, did not defend well, and did not rebound...and all his teams did was lose. It is why so many that didn't pay attention are shocked at the player we currently see and why the Wolves had to give up a top pick and Wiggins to get DLO...the Wiggins contract had negative value then.

My only point...which is just a fact...is that Wiggins started to completely transform his game, especially offensively, in the 2020 season before he was traded.

Wait wait wait...you mean to tell me Wiggins got better with age...dude is 27 years old he was on a bad team it happens. He's clearly a HOF #2 guy

[3ba11]

This literally does not address anything I said and I have no idea what point you think you're making.


The point is that any secondary producer like Wiggins or Pippen can average secondary stats in a proven system..... and the ensuing titles overrate them to HOF when tons of secondary producers like Kuzma or Ingram could do the same thing

Only the proven system (based on Curry's skillset) elevates them to champion and HOF, rather than a NOBODY

[DMAVS41]

The point is that any secondary producer like Wiggins or Pippen can average secondary stats in a proven system..... and the ensuing titles overrate them to HOF when tons of secondary producers like Kuzma or Ingram could do the same thing

Only the proven system (based on Curry's skillset) elevates them to champion and HOF, rather than a NOBODY

I disagree...all the best players ever make life easier on role players.

To different degrees and Curry is definitely one of the best, but to act like Duncan / Dirk / Shaq / Kobe / Lebron / Bird / Hakeem...etc...don't elevate the value of role players is just silly.

Also, as has been explained to you...Wiggins always had a ton of talent and clearly committed to completely changing his game for the better before he was traded. This is just a fact.

[3ba11]

I disagree...all the best players ever make life easier on role players.

To different degrees and Curry is definitely one of the best, but to act like Duncan / Dirk / Shaq / Kobe / Lebron / Bird / Hakeem...etc...don't elevate the value of role players is just silly.

Also, as has been explained to you...Wiggins always had a ton of talent and clearly committed to completely changing his game for the better before he was traded. This is just a fact.


Again, you don't need a perennial loser and non-all-star like Wiggins to win a title with Curry or MJ

Any bum will do... Wiggins and Pippen are lucky they latched onto the goat off-ball players and goat dynasty systems

Otoh, ball-dominators like Lebron need all-time scorers as sidekicks because their own high scoring lacks sufficient brand to beat good teams.. Whereas off-ball experts like Curry/MJ have a good brand at high scoring levels, so they can beat good teams with high scoring burden and weak-scoring sidekicks

[DMAVS41]

Again, you don't need a perennial loser and non-all-star like Wiggins to win a title with Curry or MJ

Any bum will do... Wiggins and Pippen are lucky they latched onto the goat off-ball players and goat dynasty systems

"need"...yea, I agree...a lot of guys could fill in that role and likely win...but they have to be a good player...you aren't winning a title with this team if you replace Wiggins with Kyle Anderson, for example...and I'm not even saying Kyle is bad...he's not, but this team would not be as good with him...they'd be missing a lot of what Wiggins has given them.

Do you really think it is a unique take to just be arguing that stars make role players better?

Also, Pippen was a completely different class of player than Wiggins...silly to compare the two...and Pippen was more important to the Bulls than Wiggins is to the Warriors.

[3ba11]

"need"...yea, I agree...a lot of guys could fill in that role and likely win...but they have to be a good player...you aren't winning a title with this team if you replace Wiggins with Kyle Anderson, for example...and I'm not even saying Kyle is bad...he's not, but this team would not be as good with him...they'd be missing a lot of what Wiggins has given them.

Do you really think it is a unique take to just be arguing that stars make role players better?

Also, Pippen was a completely different class of player than Wiggins...silly to compare the two...and Pippen was more important to the Bulls than Wiggins is to the Warriors.


In Year 3 of dynasty development, Pippen was a 1st time all-star and had the migraine choke

Similarly, Wiggins is a 1st time all-star and champion that is playing similar to Pippen and better than several of Pippen's Finals.

So Wiggins would have just as many accolades as Pippen if he played with Curry for 10 years like Pippen played with Jordan.. Then you would think he's equal to Pippen, since you obviously go by media accolades (there's no other case for Pippen)

Wiggins was actually a perennial 20 ppg player outside the dynasty system, while Pippen was a 14 ppg dunker that couldn't score

[DMAVS41]

In Year 3 of dynasty development, Pippen was a 1st time all-star and had the migraine choke

Similarly, Wiggins is a 1st time all-star and champion that is playing similar to Pippen and better than several of Pippen's Finals.

So Wiggins would have just as many accolades as Pippen if he played with Curry for 10 years like Pippen played with Jordan.. Then you would think he's equal to Pippen, since you obviously go by media accolades (there's no other case for Pippen)

Wiggins was actually a perennial 20 ppg player outside the dynasty system, while Pippen was a 14 ppg dunker that couldn't score

https://backpicks.com/2018/01/29/backpicks-goat-23-scottie-pippen/

Tell me more about how there is no case for Pippen being great without accolades.

[FromDowntown]

https://backpicks.com/2018/01/29/backpicks-goat-23-scottie-pippen/

Tell me more about how there is no case for Pippen being great without accolades.

ouchie wawa

[3ba11]

https://backpicks.com/2018/01/29/backpicks-goat-23-scottie-pippen/

Tell me more about how there is no case for Pippen being great without accolades.


What is that

Looks like a grift that claims to have advanced data from the 80's lol... Y'all gullible as shit

Make the case for Pippen without using media accolades - it can't be done because he never had dominant performance.. He never had top tier performance.. Ever

He's the only 90's sidekick that never achieved elite ppg, rpg or apg in any series.. All the evidence shows that he was an Iggy-caliber performer that was inflated to HOF by winning spotlight

[Shooter]

https://backpicks.com/2018/01/29/backpicks-goat-23-scottie-pippen/

Tell me more about how there is no case for Pippen being great without accolades.

SHUT it DOWN

[3ba11]

https://backpicks.com/2018/01/29/backpicks-goat-23-scottie-pippen/

Tell me more about how there is no case for Pippen being great without accolades.


That analysis literally says that Pippen was a great defender and sucked on offense

Don't make me start posting excerpts and graphs from that analysis that says he sucked offensively

Regardless, Lebron can't win with secondary scorers at sidekick like Wiggins or Pippen - he needs all-time scorers at sidekick because his own scoring lacks sufficient brand at high scoring levels to beat good teams