NEW Kevin McHale Footage: 24pts 8rebs 5blks 61.5% TS vs Nets (1986) [Two-way Impact]

[Im Still Ballin]

Got to love a guy that can dominate on both ends of the court. Locks down the paint on defense; dominates the paint on offense.

Boxscore: https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198603300BOS.html


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3iiqYnBNPM

[L.Kizzle]

Got to love a guy that can dominate on both ends of the court. Locks down the paint on defense; dominates the paint on offense.

Boxscore: https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198603300BOS.html


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3iiqYnBNPM
Parish had 21/11/3 on 78% FG in 8 less minutes than lil Kev.

[1987_Lakers]

Better than Karl. :applause:

[L.Kizzle]

Better than Karl. :applause:
Definitely better than Coby Karl.

[1987_Lakers]

Definitely better than Coby Karl.

I meant Karl Malone. :applause:

[L.Kizzle]

I meant Karl Malone. :applause:
He's not even better than his teammate Robert Parish.
And Bird says Dennis Johnson is the best player he's played with, never even mentions McHale.

[1987_Lakers]

He's not even better than his teammate Robert Parish.
And Bird says Dennis Johnson is the best player he's played with, never even mentions McHale.

Sorry bro, ISH already determined McHale > Hayes. Better luck next time.

[L.Kizzle]

Sorry bro, ISH already determined McHale > Hayes. Better luck next time.
Oh not not ISH final word lol.
Look, Lil Kev was a nice player. I already mentioned that. He's not in the same stratosphere as Malone.
Dudes nickname was the Black Hole for crying out loud lol.

[1987_Lakers]

Oh not not ISH final word lol.
Look, Lil Kev was a nice player. I already mentioned that. He's not in the same stratosphere as Malone.
Dudes nickname was the Black Hole for crying out loud lol.

Malone's nickname was the mailman, except when it was a big playoff game.

[L.Kizzle]

Malone's nickname was the mailman, except when it was a big playoff game.
Lil Kev was only successful when surrounded by 8 Hall of Famer (he's the worse of that 8 by the way.)

[1987_Lakers]

Lil Kev was only successful when surrounded by 8 Hall of Famer (he's the worse of that 8 by the way.)

He also outscored a peak Larry Bird in back to back Finals.

[L.Kizzle]

He also outscored a peak Larry Bird in back to back Finals.
So now numbers matter?
You say Malone's high scoring don't matter ... Or Malone having better numbers accros the board vs McHale. But, but, but hey he outscored Bird tho.

[Im Still Ballin]

Parish had 21/11/3 on 78% FG in 8 less minutes than lil Kev.

It just shows you how 'portable' McHale's game is. He can coexist with other great players. Larry Bird also had 40 points.

You need guys who can find ways to impact the game without dominating possession and play-calling. Offensive rebounding, running the break, cutting, spot-up shooting, defense -- these are things Kevin does well.

[FultzNationRISE]

He's not even better than his teammate Robert Parish.
And Bird says Dennis Johnson is the best player he's played with, never even mentions McHale.

Pretty sure I've heard in the past Bird and McHale aren't on great terms. So that could have somethin to do with it.

I personally don't subscribe to the idea you can objectively separate guys like McHale and Malone who are on the same tier (Malone's typically ranked higher for longevity reasons) but for what it's worth Barkley always says McHale's the best PF he ever played against. And he obviously played against both of em.

So it's all basically subjective.

[L.Kizzle]

Pretty sure I've heard in the past Bird and McHale aren't on great terms. So that could have somethin to do with it.

I personally don't subscribe to the idea you can objectively separate guys like McHale and Malone who are on the same tier (Malone's typically ranked higher for longevity reasons) but for what it's worth Barkley always says McHale's the best PF he ever played against. And he obviously played against both of em.
Never heard Barkley say his biggest rival was McHale. He always says Malone.
He also played against Tim Duncan, KG as well, so ...

[1987_Lakers]

So now numbers matter?
You say Malone's high scoring don't matter ... Or Malone having better numbers accros the board vs McHale. But, but, but hey he outscored Bird tho.

Who said anything about Karl Malone's numbers? Lol, it's a proven fact he was a choker.

[1987_Lakers]

Never heard Barkley say his biggest rival was McHale. He always says Malone.
He also played against Tim Duncan, KG as well, so ...

Barkley has said many times that the best player he ever matched up against was McHale.

[FultzNationRISE]

Never heard Barkley say his biggest rival was McHale. He always says Malone.
He also played against Tim Duncan, KG as well, so ...

:biggums:

He says this on Inside ALL the time.

Whenever McHale comes up (which happened more often when he was coaching) Barkley would always say "Best power forward I ever played against."

Obviously Chuck played Timmy and KG when they were very young and he was old and out of shape, so I don't think he considers those matchups a measuring stick of what they were like to play against.

He's not saying McHale's the best power forward ever, but he always says McHale was the toughest power forward for HIM. Which again, is just one guy's opinion/experience and doesnt define anything. But he does say that on a regular basis.

[L.Kizzle]

Barkley has said many times that the best player he ever matched up against was McHale.
He has no defense (Chuck) of course that's gonna be the best player he's played against. McHale has low post moves, we all know that. Chuck is small, he's not gonna stop him.
Chuck always said the 2 best power forwards (in his time) were him and Malone.

[Im Still Ballin]

Bro, do I need to bring up this thread you made: Kevin McHale: Most overrated NBA player ever? (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?481456-Kevin-McHale-Most-overrated-NBA-player-ever)


Coming off the bench as an obvious HOF talent to make the team better makes you better not worse. We need more like him. Of what relevance is who is listed in the starting lineup when there were times the whole game plan was for him to destroy someone one on one over and over and over and he came through? Being in this lineup or that is not a basketball skill.


Who cares who starts when the most important thing is who finishes the game. Bench players getting 30+ mins per game are not placed there because of lack of ability but as a strategy of the coach.


Like Red Auerbach once said, it doesn't matter who starts, but who finishes. He was the first coach to really implemented the 6th man role with John Havlicek. Havlicek spent most of the 60's on the bench, he still has the record for most points as a Celtic. Ginobili is going to make the HOF starting in only 349 games. As a starter, McHale peaked to be the most unarguable PF the league had seen and he was an All-Defensive player 6 times, outscored Larry Bird in a couple of Finals, and was a great postseason performer, don't know what more you could ask for.

McHale is one of those players who lacked longevity, but '86 & '87 McHale is easily a top 6 pf ever in my book. I can't talk for Pettit since I don't know much about him, but I can see why he is ranked ahead of Hayes, at first glance you might peep at Hayes' stats and be overly impressed, but Hayes was averaging close to 44 mpg in his first 7 years in the league, inflating his stats, he wasn't the scorer McHale was, not even close in terms of efficiency. Hayes was also a known cancer, not a leader, and not well liked by his teammates.

As for Webber, sadly him playing on weak teams most of his career made him somewhat of an afterthought, I believe he gets overlooked, but I still think McHale peaked as a better player.


You have to really look for unconventional factors to make the case.

People usually go by two things: resume, and talent.

His on-paper resume is up to par. And when someone like Charles Barkley says youre “the best power forward I ever played against” it probably means your resume translates pretty well to impact on the court.

So he has the talent and the achievements.

Seems like really kind of a reach to use the Celtics’ rotational decisions against the weight of those two main factors.


A jackass could come back with anything.

One year nobody on the Celtics started every game game and 4 of them were hall of famers. Larry Bird came off the bench 20ish games. He had a mild injury and returned as a sixth man and they had what I think was the second longest win streak in nba history with Bird going crazy off the bench playing behind...you guessed it...Kevin Mchale.

Exactly nobody thinks that means anything. You’re talking about shit that means absolutely nothing. Larry Bird rode coach as a top 5 player because the young guys weren’t allowed to fly first class. He came off the bench for a good run because the team was winning that way. He did what he was asked to make the team win and he had the coach who made him do it induct him into the hall of fame.....along with Bill Walton. Another zero ego winner who just did what the team required.


You don’t make the team worse for an empty gesture.....

Chemistry matters. A lot. Plenty of greats rather contribute to winning than rock the boat like an idiot.


I mean if he had came off the bench his whole career then he might be overrated. But he had 4 full seasons of starting and we saw how good he was when starting.

As we saw from other players, a brief stint can go a long way. For example, Pippen as franchise player for 1.5 seasons alleviate the "he can't be compared to 1st options". Hakeem winning 2 titles alleviate all the times he lost in the first round. Etc.


Probably rated by experts but underappreciated by fans. When 80's greats are discussed his name rarely comes up. The OP posted his resume. That speaks for itself but not only that he had arguably the GOAT arsenal of post moves (either him or Hakeem).

One problem guys like McHale run into is their stats suffer relative to other comparable players because they took smaller roles to play winning basketball. He could have pulled a Kyrie and demanded out and put up bigger numbers elsewhere but he wanted to win.

McHale ultimately is hurt by the "sidekick" thing. As if playing with prime Bird (who anyone in that era would have been a sidekick to) somehow makes him a worse player than being "the man" playing on almost any other team. Many fans overvalue this. Drexler is a prime example. Whenever he comes up people advocating for him note he made 2 finals and lost in Portland--no mention is made about the finals he actually won (putting up 22/10/7 in the finals--not exactly a non-contributor). In a ring obsessed era, his rings "don't count" to many fans.


Nah McHale ISN'T overrated at all! He was one of those 2nd options who was REALLY an alpha dog caliber scorer. He just happened to be playing with Larry Legend. Who was the GOAT SF for a long ass time! And for those that knock McHale coming off the bench so much early in his career, Bird was ACTUALLY drafted to play PF for the Celtics BEFORE Kev got there. Once it was time, they moved Bird more exclusive to SF. And McHale started.

Some guys like Harden, Hondo, and McHale go from coming off the bench TO starting and being the best player at their position at some point. Before Barkley and Malone got rolling, McHale was the best PF on the planet. Plus it was McHale who OFTEN guarded the high scoring SF's of that era like Nique, King, English, Dantley, etc. While Bird guarded the PF's. Two way wise, ONLY guys like Duncan, Giannis, KG, and AD are superior to McHale at the PF spot.

26 PPG-10RPG-60% FG-2.2 blocks with great defense is UNHEARD OF at the PF spot!! McHale put that clip up in his 1st team All NBA season! So HOW IN THE HELL is he overrated??? On other teams, he would have been putting up numbers similar to dominant centers BUT from the PF position! Sort of a precursor to Duncan in my opinion. Timmy was a couple inches taller though and more athletic. IF ANYTHING, McHale could be slightly underrated. AT his best he was FLAT OUT superstar material. Not just an All Star. He just played with Larry Legend who was the best player on the planet at one point. 99.9% of players in NBA history are gonna be the 2nd best player AT BEST if they play with Bird!


In 1987 he was 4th in MVP--right behind Bird. Bird got 271 votes, McHale 254. Legit superstar, not a Gasol or Irving or Klay type "sidekick."


McHale was a bench player in the same way modern guys like Manu Ginobili and Jason Terry were bench players. It wasn't for a lack of talent. It was for the betterment of the team. When the games got down to crunch time they were all on the floor. BTW, I am in no way saying Terry and Manu are at the same level as McHale.

Pairing Duncan or Dirk with McHale would have produced better results 10/10 times.

If I were to rank them it would be McHale....... Manu.................. Terry.


Everything that results in success is “ok”. Nobody needs to explain why they put ego aside and did what was best for their team. Just stop. A player that talented being willing to do whatever makes him more desirable not less. Every coach in history would agree.

[Im Still Ballin]

Continued.


Somebody's taking the Arsenio Hall approach to rating players.


Lol. :biggums:


He outscored "legendary" Bird in 2 of 3 Final so you tell me


As others have said, you place too much emphasis on his coming off the bench. His stats and level of play attest to his greatness. Top 5 PF of all time and among the very best post players ever.


Why is losing the finals as "the man" (not a real category) this great achievement? Isn't that the big charge against LeBron, that he won "only" 3 times in 9 trips? Then why should a player who went "0-1" in a decade as "the man" be hailed over a winner like McHale? Winning either matters or it doesn't. (Drexler is a fascinating case. He actually won a finals and no fan ever mentions it on ISH or elsewhere--it is viewed as that relevant.)

If you put McHale on 20+ other teams in the 80's he would be "the man" while all those other players that got mentioned would be a "sidekick" to Bird. It doesn't change a thing about them as players. We can't penalize McHale for winning and credit other players for losing solely based on who they played with. McHale showed up for the finals, unlike some of the names we hear about it.

[L.Kizzle]

Bro, do I need to bring up this thread you made: Kevin McHale: Most overrated NBA player ever? (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?481456-Kevin-McHale-Most-overrated-NBA-player-ever)
Classic. No one could even explain anything other than he came off the bench for the better of his team. Not really saying much.

Malone and Ewing and Barkley should have came off the bench. Maybe they get past the Bulls if they do instead of being selfish and starting all the games.