The flaw of ball-dominators is that they need all-time scoring help

[3ba11]

They're too ball-dominant to beat good teams at high scoring burdens, so they need all-time scorers at sidekick that could match or exceed them in scoring for entire playoff runs (Kareem, Wade, AD, Kyrie, Worthy).

Otoh, the scoring of off-ball players like MJ, Kawhi or Curry is partially-assisted - this elevates teammate and brand so they can beat good teams with high scoring burden and weak scorers at sidekick (Lowry, Klay, Pippen)

Since the off-ball players can win with high individual scoring levels and poor scoring help, they can defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load in Finals)

[1987_Lakers]

'88 postseason: Magic's help...
Worthy: 21.1 ppg
Scott: 19.6 ppg

'13 postseason: LeBron's help
Wade: 15.9 ppg
Bosh: 12.1 ppg

Some all-time great scoring help right there.

[AlternativeAcc.]

The problem with curry, kawhi, and jordan is that they need ridiculous talent to win

Curry missed the playoffs last year

Kawhit lost to Nuggets with PG as a sidekick and excellent role players

Jordan had by far the most stacked team every time he won


Lebron just needs a ball.

[3ba11]

Lebron just needs a ball.






AD led Lebron in scoring for the 2020 Playoffs and Wade led in 2011, while Kyrie matched him in 2016

That's a joke compared to MJ

You guys just lie about Lebron - his garbage brand literally needs the most scoring help ever, except maybe Magic needed more

[3ba11]

'88 postseason: Magic's help...
Worthy: 21.1 ppg
Scott: 19.6 ppg

'13 postseason: LeBron's help
Wade: 15.9 ppg
Bosh: 12.1 ppg

Some all-time great scoring help right there.


Worthy led the Lakers in scoring for those Playoffs

So you don't know what you're talking about - Magic didn't lead his own team in scoring... Ditto Lebron in 2020, 2011 or 2016 Playoffs

And Wade nearly matched Lebron in the 13' Finals - Lebron can't carry the scoring load on the Finals level

[RRR3]

Worthy led the Lakers in scoring for those Playoffs

So you don't know what you're talking about - Magic didn't lead his own team in scoring... Ditto Lebron in 2020, 2011 or 2016 Playoffs

And Wade nearly matched Lebron in the 13' Finals - Lebron can't carry the scoring load on the Finals level
These are literally blatant lies.

[3ba11]

These are literally blatant lies.


MJ averaged 10-20 more than his sidekick in every Finals, while Lebron averaged 2-5 more than sidekicks.

So Lebron never defeated maximum defensive attention (never carried the scoring load in Finals)

Infact, Lebron had sidekicks matxh or lead him in scoring for entire playoff runs (11', 20', 16') because he lacks the brand of ball to win at high scoring burdens




These are literally blatant lies.


Ball-dominators like Lebron or Luka lack sufficient brand at high scoring levels to beat good teams (too ball-dominant), so they need all-time scorers at sidekick that can relieve the scoring burden and match them for entire playoff runs (11', 16', 20')..

Otoh, the high scoring of off-ball players like Curry or MJ is partially-assisted - this elevates teammate role and brand, so they can win with high scoring burden and secondary scorers at sidekick.

It's more rare to win with a secondary scorer like Lowry, Klay or Pippen than an all-time scorer like Kareem, Wade, AD, Kyrie or Worthy..

[ImKobe]

These are literally blatant lies.

Irving attempted more shots while playing less minutes so essentially that was not a true #1 option ring for Bran.

[red1]

this guy is mentally ill.


he thinks mo williams has more raw talent than 6'7 long-armed wing scottie pippen.



he used to argue that jordan would have won 6 rings with delonte west and anderson varejao as his best players



and then he tried to tell me that horace grant and rodman have less talent that varejao and Z.




he's mentally ill.




did I mention that he thinks he dunked on zach randolph?

[warriorfan]

this guy is mentally ill.


he thinks mo williams has more raw talent than 6'7 long-armed wing scottie pippen.



he used to argue that jordan would have won 6 rings with delonte west and anderson varejao as his best players



and then he tried to tell me that horace grant and rodman have less talent that varejao and Z.




he's mentally ill.




did I mention that he thinks he dunked on zach randolph?

Mo williams was a great player. In terms of guards in the east there weren’t a lot of guys who could handle, shoot, create their own shot like Mo.

[3ba11]

he thinks mo williams has more raw talent than 6'7 long-armed wing scottie pippen.






The 2009 Cavs had the 3rd-ranked defense compared to 19th for the 90' Bulls, while Mo was far superior to Pippen offensively across the board (scoring, efficiency, PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48).

So Lebron had a better team than Jordan on both sides of the ball, yet Jordan still beat him to titles - Jordan won the next year in 91', while Lebron lost again in 10' after adding Jamison/Shaq to a 66-win league favorite.






he used to argue that jordan would have won 6 rings with delonte west and anderson varejao as his best players





I never argued that

But I did argue that Jordan would've won as a historic favorite (-700) against an injured, 1-star opponent in the 09' ECF - Dwight was missing his all-star PG Jameer Nelson in that series






and then he tried to tell me that horace grant and rodman have less talent that varejao and Z.





Big Z is vastly superior to Horace Grant and Bulls Rodman..

It's funny because Shawn Kemp carried Zydrunas further than Lebron carried all-star Zydrunas - Kemp led Zydrunas to 47 wins and the playoffs in 98', while Lebron was lottery with the all-star version of Zydrunas in 05.






did I mention that he thinks he dunked on zach randolph?





I dunked on Zach a bunch

Good memories with Zach and his family. He used to come over to my house to shoot craps because it was illegal. But then my Dad came home early one day and made everyone leave.. I'm putting it nicely

[red1]

The 2009 Cavs had the 3rd-ranked defense compared to 19th for the 90' Bulls, while Mo was far superior to Pippen across the board offensively (scoring, efficiency, PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48).

So Lebron had a better team than Jordan on both sides of the ball, yet Jordan still beat him to titles - Jordan won the next year in 91', while Lebron lost again in 10' after adding Jamison/Shaq to a 66-win league favorite.






I never argued that

But I did argue that Jordan would've won as a historic favorite (-700) against an injured, 1-star opponent in the 09' ECF - Dwight was missing his all-star PG Jameer Nelson in that series






Big Z is vastly superior to Horace Grant and Bulls Rodman..

It's funny because Shawn Kemp carried Zydrunas further than Lebron carried all-star Zydrunas - Kemp led Zydrunas to 47 wins and the playoffs in 98', while Lebron was lottery with the all-star version of Zydrunas in 05.






I dunked on Zach a bunch

Good memories with Zach and his family. He used to come over to my house to shoot craps because it was illegal. But then my Dad came home early one day and made everyone leave.. I'm putting it nicely

my guy we've been over these debates. I dont respect you because you never give ground or admit when you are wrong - CLEARLY wrong.


thats why you just get trolled with 1-9 by these kids.


I appreciate you taking time to answer the points one by one but you are hands down wrong AGAIN.


in NO world is mo williams more talented that scottie pippen.

in NO universe is a frontcourt of old z and skill-less varejao better than horace grant or rodman

you argued that jordan would have replicated his exact success with those 2009 cavaliers - I dont know how you can even still cling to this argument. those cavs teams were absolutely devoid of any talent and the celtics big three joining was the final nail in the coffin and the reason the miami heat big three even existed in the first place.


and no you did not EVER dunk on zach randolph.



I've seen all of your arguments over the years and we already know your formula - to a tee.

you'll prop up any argument that diminishes any player not named michael jordan.


that's literally all you ever do, and its literally what all of your posts revolve around.


and your obsession with lebron is actually more evidence of your mental illness ... at one point you had 10 threads on the front page with the same argument....

[3ba11]

.
Thread Cliffs (vetted by DMAVS)


Wiggins tweaked his game to eliminate the mid-range but every young player does that in today's game - so how many secondary-level producers like Wiggins, Ingram, or Kuzma can become good 3-and-D players in the Warriors' system?.. How many guys could get 16-18 ppg by making shots in a proven system when it's their turn??

Tons of secondary producers could do that, not just Wiggins or Pippen, and you certainly don't need superstars or all-time scorers that routinely get 25-30 like Wade, AD, or Kyrie.

And that's the point - only ball-dominators need those kind of all-time scorers at sidekick.. When ball-dominators carry the scoring burden, they lack the brand of ball to beat good teams - since they can't beat good teams while carrying the scoring burden, they need all-time scorers at sidekick like Kareem, Wade, AD or Kyrie..

Otoh, the high scoring for off-ball players like Curry or MJ is partially-assisted - this elevates teammate role and brand, so they can win with high scoring burden and secondary scorers at sidekick.. This is why off-ball guys like Curry/MJ/Kobe/Bird have defeated maximum defensive attention (carried scoring load in Finals)

[red1]

you used to argue with me that lebron isnt top 10 and I used to say he will retire top-2 all-time 8 ****ing years ago


you stupid bitch, steve kerr himself confirmed my argument and denied yours - he said lebron was already top-5 if he retired after his stint with the heat with 2 finals MVPs and 4 rings.


and that he is undoubtedly top-2 all-time

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MG8wjJNdf4&ab_channel=ESPN


Not to mention we got your ass in 2016 and 2020.


Its over. bend the knee you dumb ho.

[red1]

Mo williams was a great player. In terms of guards in the east there weren’t a lot of guys who could handle, shoot, create their own shot like Mo.

mo williams was a good nba player but he isnt a top-75 player


I'm not even talking about careers - 3ball argued that mo williams has more raw talent


who do you think a reasonable GM would draft?

[3ba11]

you used to argue with me that lebron isnt top 10 and I used to say top-2 years ago


you stupid bitch, steve kerr himself confirmed my argument and denied yours - he said lebron was already top-5 if he retired after his stint with the heat with 2 finals MVPs and 4 rings.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MG8wjJNdf4&ab_channel=ESPN


Not to mention we got your ass in 2016 and 2020.


Its over. bend the knee you dumb ho.



* 2007 - 22 on 36% in Finals sweep loss

* 2008 - 26 on 35% in 2nd Round loss

* 2009 - lost as historic favorite to 1-star team

* 2010 - 21 on 34% in last 3 games to lose 2-1 lead

* 2011 - GOAT choke


TLDR - Lebron was just another career-losing ball-dominator like CP3, Luka and Westbrook until the "decision" to form super-teams.

Ball-dominators make everyone stand in the corner, so they lack the teammate fits, teammate development, chemistry and brand of ball to win organically. Since they never learned to win (teammate fits... organic) they're forced into talent-based winning (team-hopping.. all-star team strategy)

[red1]

* 2007 - 22 on 36% in Finals sweep loss

* 2008 - 26 on 35% in 2nd Round loss

* 2009 - lost as historic favorite to 1-star team

* 2010 - 21 on 34% in last 3 games to lose 2-1 lead

* 2011 - GOAT choke


TLDR - Lebron was just another career-losing ball-dominator like CP3, Luka and Westbrook until the "decision" to form super-teams.

Ball-dominators make everyone stand in the corner, so they lack the teammate fits, teammate development, chemistry and brand of ball to win organically. Since they never learned to win (teammate fits... organic) they're forced into talent-based winning (team-hopping.. all-star team strategy)

you see my guy.


that's just lame.



same ol' same ol'

[red1]

how can you knock lebron for not winning those years playing with absolute dogshit when your idol jordan himself used to get his shit pushed in and slapped around before he got some help


did you even watch the last dance?

[3ba11]

you see my guy.


that's just lame.



same ol' same ol'


The historical record shown above confirms that Lebron was just another career-losing ball-dominator like CP3 or Luka until the "decision" to form super-teams... :confusedshrug:

[red1]

The historical record shown above confirms that Lebron was just another career-losing ball-dominator like CP3, Luka and Westbrook until the "decision" to form super-teams... :confusedshrug:

go pull up those rosters in your historical record.


give us a good laugh shall you? :oldlol:

[Phoenix]

3autobot™


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODy_VrL_EXo

[red1]

you singledhandedly built lebron's GOAT case. :roll:



damn even I'm convinced now. we shot down all of the arguments from the worst haters - these kids really aint got shit. :biggums:

[3ba11]

go pull up those rosters in your historical record.


give us a good laugh shall you? :oldlol:


Dwight's roster was worse and a historic underdog to the Cavs - one of the 7 biggest underdogs to ever win a playoff series

And the 09' Cavs had a better team on both sides of the ball than the 90' Bulls, yet Jordan still beat Lebron to titles..

(the 09' Cavs had the 3rd-ranked defense (19th for the 90' Bulls), while Mo destroyed Pippen offensively across the board)

[1987_Lakers]

Let's not forget when OP called AD "bird fed"

[red1]

Dwight's roster was a historic underdog and missing it's all-star PG Jameer Nelson

And the 09' Cavs had a better team on both sides of the ball than the 90' Bulls, yet Jordan still beat him to titles

nah dude. I saw every game of that series.


you're actually retarded.



skip bayless bent the knee too, I love it. all he has left is "hurr durr no heart" yeah like we aren't talking about the best elimination game performer in NBA history. it just looks stupid now. :oldlol:

[red1]

Let's not forget when OP called AD "bird fed"

he's flip flopped on every single argument. and he never admits when he's wrong. but still keeps spewing the same stale arguments from 8 years ago, starting endless threads.


he's mentally retarded.

[3ba11]

Let's not forget when OP called AD "bird fed"


He is bird-fed, but he still dominated Joker and carried the Lakers to the 2020 Finals (Magic Johnson MVP Award)

[red1]

the funniest part is that he is using the same exact arguments that jordan haters used to use, saying he was too balldominant and scored too many points himself to ever win a ring :oldlol:



its ridiculous. :roll:

[Ne 1]

Bro you make no ****in sense kid... you named a bunch of dudes that weren't leading scorers on their teams for the playoffs. Wade didn't lead Miami in scoring during any Championship run neither did Kyrie and Magic outscored Kareem as well

[Ne 1]

Off-ball players aren't better or more effective, they just have easier jobs dude wtf so **** common sense huh... I really hope you aren't responsible for any kids or subordinates man you have a ****in ass backwards idea of effective leadership

[2ball]

Ball dominators need equal scoring partners.