So at what point do modern fans acknowledge the nba wasn’t filled with tradesmen?

[Kblaze8855]

In response to Kareem saying he’s still the leading scorer and only made one three:

https://www.hostpic.org/images/2206231802300339.jpeg










And Jordan, Bird, Hakeem and so on would also all get cooked today. This is the opinion of an awful lot of young fans.


So I’ll ask….

At what point would everyone in the league not be cooked in a modern game?


Obviously Kareem who was giving hell to guys who played into Lebrons career isn’t modern enough.

What’s the cutoff? Kobe and after?

What will the current 8 year olds be saying in 2035? Tmac was a carpenter? Allen Iverson was a carnival ride operator? You’d think the video age would handle that but there’s 30 hours of Hakeem highlights and young enough people still think he’d get cooked when I’ve seen him switch and get stops on guys like Kobe and Ray Allen who you would think are modern enough.

Mike is gonna be like 6th all time to the kids of today. At best.

I promise you in 10 years your nephew will tell you Luka is better than Jordan or Kobe ever were. My friends son is a pretty high end middle school player who gets invited to national camps and he doesn’t even remember Kobe. Kyrie is his favorite. He knows who Kobe was but he doesn’t care. And I’m not like…mad at the kid. It’s just weird to me.

At his age I knew all about the players before my time and I had no way to see them play. They have access and don’t give a shit.

All these goat arguments are nothing in the face of time.

Youre always 20 years from being a chimney sweep

[AlternativeAcc.]

It's a clear exaggeration but the point isn't that there weren't great players, but that there were was a much more shallow talent pool and there were absolutely many tradesmen playing in the NBA in the 60s and 70s, and some in the 80s and 90s.

The money simply wasn't there yet for the non super stars.

[Kblaze8855]

The 11th highest paid player on the lakers in 1985 made 200k when the national median sales price of a home was 80k. The Bulls 10th man Rod Higgins made 160k. Nba players were rich long before modern fans acknowledge they could play.

[red1]

In response to Kareem saying he’s still the leading scorer and only made one three:


And Jordan, Bird, Hakeem and so on would also all get cooked today. This is the opinion of an awful lot of young fans.


So I’ll ask….

At what point would everyone in the league not be cooked in a modern game?


Obviously Kareem who was giving hell to guys who played into Lebrons career isn’t modern enough.

What’s the cutoff? Kobe and after?

What will the current 8 year olds be saying in 2035? Tmac was a carpenter? Allen Iverson was a carnival ride operator? You’d think the video age would handle that but there’s 30 hours of Hakeem highlights and young enough people still think he’d get cooked when I’ve seen him switch and get stops on guys like Kobe and Ray Allen who you would think are modern enough.

Mike is gonna be like 6th all time to the kids of today. At best.

I promise you in 10 years your nephew will tell you Luka is better than Jordan or Kobe ever were. My friends son is a pretty high end middle school player who gets invited to national camps and he doesn’t even remember Kobe. Kyrie is his favorite. He knows who Kobe was but he doesn’t care. And I’m not like…mad at the kid. It’s just weird to me.

At his age I knew all about the players before my time and I had no way to see them play. They have access and don’t give a shit.

All these goat arguments are nothing in the face of time.

Youre always 20 years from being a chimney sweep

https://c.tenor.com/S2G-QZk-Vz0AAAAM/michael-jordan-laughing.gif

[red1]

its a generational warfare of every 90's fan hating on lebron saying he's non-competitive that started this trend of young fans hating on older players with their job titles


it all started with the starks grocery-bagging jokes - I think there are articles from a decade ago that literally said "from grocery-bagger to jordan's rival - the john starks story" or some shit like that


whoever wrote those titles made them stick. on social media at least. :roll:

[red1]

from '96:

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1996-05-12-9605120317-story.html


Starks is talking, of course, about Michael Jordan, and Starks is no Michael

Starks' story is familiar: He was a grocery bagger


its literally john starks story that made that angle a popular way to hate on legends. and Im not going to lie its one of my favorite ways to troll 3ball. :roll:

[Shooter]

It's a clear exaggeration but the point isn't that there weren't great players, but that there were was a much more shallow talent pool and there were absolutely many tradesmen playing in the NBA in the 60s and 70s, and some in the 80s and 90s.

The money simply wasn't there yet for the non super stars.

This

[Kblaze8855]

Its a line of thinking that never made sense to me. Kurt Warner worked at a grocery store before being in the nfl. That mean that while he was the mvp his spirals weren’t that tight or the nfl players weren’t good? Guys used to go to college and come in in their 20s. Who doesn’t have a job before they’re 22? Starks was in college at 22 in the nba at 23 then got cut, played in the cba, and made it back at 25.

At what point would having a job mean he wasn’t good? In college or after he’d already made the nba and had to work his way back?

We calling out people in the G league?

Even the ones who became nba all stars? Do middleton, Siakam, Gobert, and so on all get the Starks treatment if they had a side job as they worked their way back out of the secondary leagues?

[Shooter]

Its a line of thinking that never made sense to me. Kurt Warner worked at a grocery store before being in the nfl. That mean that while he was the mvp his spirals weren’t that tight or the nfl players weren’t good? Guys used to go to college and come in in their 20s. Who doesn’t have a job before they’re 22? Starks was in college at 22 in the nba at 23 then got cut, played in the cba, and made it back at 25.

At what point would having a job mean he wasn’t good? In college or after he’d already made the nba and had to work his way back?

We calling out people in the G league?

Even the ones who became nba all stars? Do middleton, Siakam, Gobert, and so on all get the Starks treatment if they had a side job as they worked their way back out of the secondary leagues?

You have to admit on some level, no matter how much you like Jordan, that John Starks being a literal grocery bagger and Jordan's #1 rival at SG is a bit comical, no?

[iamgine]

I thought a lot of NBA players in the 50s and 60s are actual tradesmen. Just cause when looking at the salary and job security of the NBA at that time, it made perfect sense to have offseason jobs.

Of course player salaries are always a strong indication of the quality of the league.

[HoopsNY]

We had this in the 90s and 2000s as well. I remember growing up claiming Wilt only played a bunch of midgets and so he couldn't last in the 90s or 2000s. It just wasn't popularized because we didn't have the internet frenzy in the early 90s or social media in the early 2000s.

What recency bias does is that it eliminates historical context and clear examples from the equation. Like you said, Kareem was dominating guys like Hakeem who dominated guys like Shaq.

LeBron came into the league in 2003, as did guys like Wade and then Paul the following year. LeBron and Paul still play in this era at a highly effective level. So history disproves the bogus theories that modern fans always bring.

I'm sure most people use the NBA/ABA merger as a reason to discount players pre-1976. Yet someone like Pistol Pete won the scoring title after its merger. Sh!t just doesn't add up to people who can't properly contextualize the evolution of the game.

[Kblaze8855]

You have to admit on some level, no matter how much you like Jordan, that John Starks being a literal grocery bagger and Jordan's #1 rival at SG is a bit comical, no?

No more than Magics chief rival being a literal garbage man which Bird was. Not that Starks was anyones chief rival anyway. Someone pushing you a bit and getting famous losing series vs you doesn’t make them a your nemesis. He wasn’t even their so called “Jordan stopper”. He was just another 2 guard in the nba who happened to play for a big market.

[SouBeachTalents]

It's actually crazy Starks ended up having the career that he did. Looking at his wiki page


Starks was born in Tulsa, Oklahoma where he attended Tulsa Central High School.[2] At Tulsa Central, Starks played only one year on the basketball team.[3]

After high school, he enrolled at Rogers State College in 1984. While at Rogers State, Starks was on the "taxi squad" of the basketball team for backups to replace injured or suspended players; taxi squad players did not suit up and instead watched games from the stands. However, Starks was expelled from Rogers State for stealing another student's stereo equipment in retaliation for the student breaking into Starks' dorm room and the college holding him and his roommates financially responsible for the damage.[4] Starks transferred to Northern Oklahoma College in spring 1985, made the basketball team there, and was sentenced to five days in jail for the robbery. He served the sentence during spring break.[5] In the fall of 1985, Starks averaged 11 points per game with Northern Oklahoma but left the college after being caught smoking cannabis in his dorm.[6] Having worked at a Safeway supermarket, Starks enrolled at Tulsa Junior College in the summer of 1986 to pursue a business degree.[7] While playing intramural basketball, he came to the attention of Ken Trickey, the former coach of Oral Roberts University who was then starting a basketball program for Oklahoma Junior College. Starks played there for a season, then earned a scholarship at Oklahoma State University in 1988, where he finished his collegiate career.

In 1990, Starks tried out for the New York Knicks. In one practice, he tried to dunk on Knicks center Patrick Ewing. Ewing threw him down and Starks twisted his knee. The team was not allowed to release him unless it healed by the end of December. When it did not heal by that time, the Knicks could not release him.[9] As a result, Starks has referred to Ewing as his saving grace.

[tpols]

You have to admit on some level, no matter how much you like Jordan, that John Starks being a literal grocery bagger and Jordan's #1 rival at SG is a bit comical, no?

:roll:

This is quality trolling.

But it is highlighted in john Starks and Knicks documentaries the grocery bagging thing. And they don't do that for anybody else.



HE was making $3.35 an hour, the minimum wage, at a supermarket back home in Tulsa. He was "a checker and a stock boy," Starks recalled yesterday. "I mean, a stock person. It showed me what hard work was."

John Starks did something about it. He enrolled in a junior college, not to play basketball, but to continue his education, to become a man "with a jacket and a tie and an attache case."

[tpols]

No more than Magics chief rival being a literal garbage man which Bird was. Not that Starks was anyones chief rival anyway. Someone pushing you a bit and getting famous losing series vs you doesn’t make them a your nemesis. He wasn’t even their so called “Jordan stopper”. He was just another 2 guard in the nba who happened to play for a big market.

Bird was a top prospect though. Starks was a nobody that basically sprung out of nowhere.

[Kblaze8855]

So the whole grocery thing was before he even went to college?

We talking about people for having jobs before even starting their path to the nba? Talking about a guy between high school and junior college…getting a job?

[Wally450]

In 20 years, people will say the best players played against Twitch streamers and podcasters.

[AlternativeAcc.]

The 11th highest paid player on the lakers in 1985 made 200k when the national median sales price of a home was 80k. The Bulls 10th man Rod Higgins made 160k. Nba players were rich long before modern fans acknowledge they could play.

But thats nowhere near the money players make today, adjusting for inflation

So the risk was still very high and many guys had part time jobs in pursuit of making the NBA. (And many continued working other jobs in the off-season including havlicek)

Nowadays almost all the players who make it have never even had a real.job. basketball has been their entire life from the time they were born. Totally different world and totally different talent pool.

[Kblaze8855]

People in every era have jobs while trying to make the nba. Have you ever lived near a college town? Hell have you known high school players? People have jobs before being in the nba. But for 40 years nba players made 100+k a year. Having a job before getting there isn’t anything to criticize.

[AlternativeAcc.]

People in every era have jobs while trying to make the nba. Have you ever lived near a college town? Hell have you known high school players? People have jobs before being in the nba. But for 40 years nba players made 100+k a year. Having a job before getting there isn’t anything to criticize.

Having a part time job at Jimmy John's at 16 isn't the same as being a diesel mechanic and trying to put food on the table for your family while you pursue a basketball career.

You're missing the point

[Kblaze8855]

So a part time job is ok until when? You leave college?

You think a lot of 27 year olds were on the Bucks and leaving games to sweep up at Dennys in the last 40 years?

Craig Hodges made 100k as the 10 highest paid player on his team 38 years ago.

[HoopsNY]

It's pretty disingenuous hearing modern fans act as if guys before couldn't hang today. I mean, it's like saying guys like LeBron can't hang with....LeBron. or CP3 can't hang with....CP3. Or KD can't hang with......KD.

In 2012, 4 players averaged 25 or more PPG, and one of them was Kevin Love, the same guy Bran stans like to sh!t on. Compare that with last season where 15 players averaged 25 or more PPG.

In 2012, there were only 18 triple doubles that year. Compare that to last year where there were 142.

So are we gonna start saying that 2009 LeBron couldn't hang in 2021? Or 2010 KD couldn't hang in 2022? Players evolve and so would any star in the past.

[red1]

Its a line of thinking that never made sense to me. Kurt Warner worked at a grocery store before being in the nfl. That mean that while he was the mvp his spirals weren’t that tight or the nfl players weren’t good? Guys used to go to college and come in in their 20s. Who doesn’t have a job before they’re 22? Starks was in college at 22 in the nba at 23 then got cut, played in the cba, and made it back at 25.

At what point would having a job mean he wasn’t good? In college or after he’d already made the nba and had to work his way back?

We calling out people in the G league?

Even the ones who became nba all stars? Do middleton, Siakam, Gobert, and so on all get the Starks treatment if they had a side job as they worked their way back out of the secondary leagues?

its ridiculous to hold a job against someone if they are doing it to make ends meet while they do their main thing

but the average fan isnt very intelligent - and they definitely arent well informed :oldlol:

[red1]

In 20 years, people will say the best players played against Twitch streamers and podcasters.

:roll:

[AlternativeAcc.]

So a part time job is ok until when? You leave college?

You think a lot of 27 year olds were on the Bucks and leaving games to sweep up at Dennys in the last 40 years?

Craig Hodges made 100k as the 10 highest paid player on his team 38 years ago.

I thought we were talking about Kareem whose prime came in the 70s... drug riddled, talent diluted, dudes working part time and not dedicating themselves fully to the NBA 70s

[Johnny32]

superstars would be superstars in pretty much any era. it's the overall talent in the lg that's the biggest difference now. the international talent pool is a huge factor why.

[Kblaze8855]

I thought we were talking about Kareem whose prime came in the 70s... drug riddled, talent diluted, dudes working part time and not dedicating themselves fully to the NBA 70s


We are talking Kareem who was the finals MVP when he was like 38 and lit up people who were in the NBA with Lebron.

[AlternativeAcc.]

We are talking Kareem who was the finals MVP when he was like 38 and lit up people who were in the NBA with Lebron.

Nobody questions Kareems greatness, we question the talent pool when he was in his prime...

There were drugs and dudes working as insurance salesmen while Kareem was 100% dedicated to basketball... it matters

Nowadays ALL of the players are completely dedicated and have near equal access to training and nutrition. In the 70s the best players had much more of an advantage than the average guy

Yes Kareem is a legend, but would he be as legendary today we don't know for sure

[tontoz]

superstars would be superstars in pretty much any era. it's the overall talent in the lg that's the biggest difference now. the international talent pool is a huge factor why.

Correct. Guys like Kareem, Hakeem, DRob, Shaq, Barkley, Malone etc would still be elite today.

This era has more depth because there are more international players and a greater population as a whole. But anyone who thinks Kareem wouldn't be dominant today is just clueless or trolling. Prime Kareem had excellent mobility and skills in addition to being 7'+.

[Kblaze8855]

Nobody questions Kareems greatness, we question the talent pool when he was in his prime...

There were drugs and dudes working as insurance salesmen while Kareem was 100% dedicated to basketball... it matters

Nowadays ALL of the players are completely dedicated and have near equal access to training and nutrition. In the 70s the best players had much more of an advantage than the average guy

Yes Kareem is a legend, but would he be as legendary today we don't know for sure



Make sure you remember that all players are completely dedicated to basketball next time Kyrie, Ben Simmons, or all these podcasters spending time on espn, guys developing movies, getting their jersey retired in strip clubs, and showing up out of shape come up.

Anthony Davis didn’t shoot a basketball for 5 months. What does it matter if he ran a drug store or just sat on his ass?

[3ba11]

In 1998, Kemp carried Zydrunas to the 1st Round, while Lebron was lottery with the all-star version of Zydrunas in 05'

The reality is that Jordan played against most of the best players that Lebron ever faced (Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Garnett) and dominated them more than Lebron did... MJ was MVP and won every award over them in 98' at 35 years old

[AlternativeAcc.]

Make sure you remember that all players are completely dedicated to basketball next time Kyrie, Ben Simmons, or all these podcasters spending time on espn, guys developing movies, getting their jersey retired in strip clubs, and showing up out of shape come up.

Anthony Davis didn’t shoot a basketball for 5 months. What does it matter if he ran a drug store or just sat on his ass?

Kyrie is a one-off situation and the others are injuries... even if certain guys are lazier than others, they're still 100x better off than guys in the 70s and don't have any worries about money and the stress that comes with not having the safety net today's players have. Not a remotely close comparison.

[tontoz]

Luka and Harden both came into the season overweight. It wasn't because of injuries it was laziness. Luka even fessed up to being too lazy in the offseason and having bad eating habits which he says he has corrected.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Luka and Harden both came into the season overweight. It wasn't because of injuries it was laziness. Luka even fessed up to being too lazy in the offseason and having bad eating habits which he says he has corrected.

So? And players weren't coked up and lazy in the 70s?

Harden and Luka have more money than they'll ever know what to do with. They have no stress... they're mentally free and fresh... they don't ever have to worry about providing for their families... its a night and day comparison

[Kblaze8855]

Ben Simmons has a 180 million dollar contract and insiders keep saying he won’t even try to get better at shooting but Kyrie is a one off. Laziness or being a jackass are not a matter of era.

Players are better conditioned because of a number of factors but their dedication is hard to judge at large especially by using their income. Some of the laziest people in sports didn’t show it till they got paid. Players have not needed a side job for like 60 years. They were among the richest Americans even in the 70s.

The average nba player made 100k 47 years ago. The last guy on a roster might make 40K back when a house would cost 60.

Guys needing to sell shoes on the side is from the 50s and early 60s and even then a lot of those stories…the players OWNED the stores.

[Shogon]

Well to be fair arguably the best player of the 80s was a garbage man at one point and ... edit... I don't want to conflate reality with trolling... Mark Eaton was an auto mechanic for like 3 years or something.

[fsvr54]

Listen to Mitch Richmond on the Knuckleheads podcast. The amount these dudes had to work and how insanely elite they had to be at basketball to even make the league in the 80s was insane. These were elite, elite dudes, always.

Just cause you sell insurance doesn't mean you can't also be one of the best ballers on the planet. There's dudes who never played pro ball in their life who have the skills to make the NBA if they were bigger.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Ben Simmons has a 180 million dollar contract and insiders keep saying he won’t even try to get better at shooting but Kyrie is a one off. Laziness or being a jackass are not a matter of era.

Players are better conditioned because of a number of factors but their dedication is hard to judge at large especially by using their income. Some of the laziest people in sports didn’t show it till they got paid. Players have not needed a side job for like 60 years. They were among the richest Americans even in the 70s.

The average nba player made 100k 47 years ago. The last guy on a roster might make 40K back when a house would cost 60.

Guys needing to sell shoes on the side is from the 50s and early 60s and even then a lot of those stories…the players OWNED the stores.

You name examples like that and I can say half the league was doing coke in the 70s... ok?

Exactly, Ben has 180 million. He has no stress to provide for his family... the biggest stress in life... guys in the 70s still had that stress and didn't have any safety net... again, it's not remotely similar

[Kblaze8855]

You think an average salary of 100k 50 years ago was stressful?

Where do you think players got all that cocaine if you also think they were poor? You think a coke habit was cheap before crack came along in the 80s?

People were complaining that athletes were too rich even before that. Saying they had lost all touch with the average man. Not having 100 million doesn’t mean you aren’t comfortable as ****. 300k is a lot of money even now. And we are talking about even the nobodies making 90-150k 50 years ago when factory workers made 80 bucks a week.

[Im Still Ballin]

Hard to make the NBA when there were fewer teams. Yes, the talent pool has grown international, but the barrier to entry is also lower. You have to balance out those two factors.

The '80s had like 22 teams. By the end of the '90s, there were 30, or close to it. At 15 players per team, that's an extra 100-120+ players.

[Kblaze8855]

https://www.hostpic.org/images/2206290329450356.jpeg

[FKAri]

https://www.hostpic.org/images/2206290329450356.jpeg

It's because they are standing on the shoulder of giants. Not sure how this concept is hard to understand for some people. It's why I don't like doing all-time comparisons. The wider the time gap the more meaningless it becomes.

[tontoz]

One big advantage players today have is YouTube. I was listening to the JJ Redick podcast with Trae and Trae was talking about stuff he picked up from Steve Nash. Guys today grow up watching YouTube clips of their favorite players copying their moves.

[eliteballer]

A lot of guys look good and skilled today because of the soft rules.

Imagine Payton handchecking Curry fullcourt.

[Kblaze8855]

That would be more of an issue with the pre Kerr Curry who was trying to win one on one matchups at the behest of Jackson. Jackson actually told him he’d take a team L if Curry wins his matchup vs opposing stars. No doubt it was a confidence boost and helped Steph realize his potential to go at anyone but it’s not exactly the winning through team ball mentality Kerr lives by.

Kerr coaches Curry would be fine with handcheck I’d say. The freedom of movement change would be the biggest difference he’d have to adjust to.

[tontoz]

Draymond was recently talking about Curry's strength gains. He said that Curry really started hitting the weights hard in 2019. He actually called Curry the strongest guy on the team now.

Dray said guys used to be able to bump Curry and throw him off but they can't now.

[eliteballer]

Curry might be on something. He’s 34 and hasn’t lost a step physically.

[Shogon]

Curry might be on something. He’s 34 and hasn’t lost a step physically.

Yes, he probably is. As Jordan likely was, and Kobe definitely was, and LeBron definitely is.

Shut the **** up *****.

Your hero took steroids. Deal with it.

[LeGoat4Life]

Moderns fans are dumb and ignorant

Cause they are too stupid to factor in difference in technology, training, fitness, diet, etc between the eras

[Johnny32]

Draymond was recently talking about Curry's strength gains. He said that Curry really started hitting the weights hard in 2019. He actually called Curry the strongest guy on the team now.

Dray said guys used to be able to bump Curry and throw him off but they can't now.

dray is kind of full of shit though.

Stephen Curry is stronger than you think. Way, way stronger. Golden State Warriors director of athletic performance Keke Lyles revealed that the MVP's exploits in the weight room are legendary.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/stephen-curry-can-deadlift-400-pounds/

that's from 2015.

[Wally450]

Curry might be on something. He’s 34 and hasn’t lost a step physically.

What about LeBron at 37?

[StrongLurk]

Basketball discourse is the worst out of all professional sports because more viewers are very casual, young, and ignorant. It's why someone like Kareem will get utterly disrespected by the twitter teenage masses. Social media like facebook, twitter is just so toxic.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Average NBA salary in 1975 was 90k, equivalent to about 490k today.


Average salary in 2022: 8.5 million

[tpols]

Curry might be on something. He’s 34 and hasn’t lost a step physically.

Curry is an obvious late bloomer. He looked like a 12 year old in college. This is just a natural physical progression. Same type of thing Steve Nash went through. White people generally don't mature as quickly.