did mike always have maximum defense attention becos he cant pass?

[And1AllDay]

other stars like bran and magic use a ball dominator style becos they know how to pass and will punish a double team quickly. they have a better style that is more successful for team results and team play.

but if you are like mike and cant pass...why not double team him? he cant pass anyway so its maximum defense attentoin

was this was caused other chicago bull players to fall in the corners of the court waiting for a shot since mike didnt know how to pass? woudl ball dominator give him more then six finals in 20 years?

[Spurs m8]

And1allday/shooter about to spend another Saturday night at home on ish, starting threads about MJ

You will always be pathetic :roll:

[And1AllDay]

And1allday/shooter about to spend another Saturday night at home on ish, starting threads about MJ

You will always be pathetic :roll:

are you okay m8?

[Spurs m8]

Also, who has the most turnovers in history?

And the most turnovers in playoff history?

Spoiler alert, it's someone who isn't great at passing

[colts19]

other stars like bran and magic use a ball dominator style becos they know how to pass and will punish a double team quickly. they have a better style that is more successful for team results and team play.

but if you are like mike and cant pass...why not double team him? he cant pass anyway so its maximum defense attentoin

was this was caused other chicago bull players to fall in the corners of the court waiting for a shot since mike didnt know how to pass? woudl ball dominator give him more then six finals in 20 years?

You really should do some research before you post.

[Spurs m8]

You really should do some research before you post.

Even with research, the dude blatantly lies...hes never cared about truth

[FKAri]

Also, who has the most turnovers in history?

And the most turnovers in playoff history?

Spoiler alert, it's someone who isn't great at passing

Michael Jordan.

[Real Men Wear Green]

He gets max troll attention we know that much. But you're still an idiot.

[Axe]

Condom m8 fuming again as usual.

[MrFonzworth]

And1allday/shooter about to spend another Saturday night at home on ish, starting threads about MJ

You will always be pathetic :roll:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?497012-theres-nothing-left-to-prove-i-will-stay-retired-until-le7631-gets-passed-bran-goat

Glucose Shooter is addicted to ISH and celebacy. What a miserable existence.

[And1AllDay]

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?497012-theres-nothing-left-to-prove-i-will-stay-retired-until-le7631-gets-passed-bran-goat

Glucose Shooter is addicted to ISH and celebacy. What a miserable existence.

this guy loves me :oldlol:


play in traffic retart

[MrFonzworth]

this guy loves me :oldlol:


play in traffic retart

Howany threads have you made exclusively about me? :oldlol:

[kawhileonard2]

Need an answer on each thread below.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?489748-When-KD-and-Lebron-go-head-to-head
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=459570

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495113-Vassilis-Spanoulis-Giannis-Antetokounmpo-s-And-Luka-Doncic-s-Idol-Retired
https://www.espn.com/olympics/wbc2006/news/story?id=2568543

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495940-Lebron-with-Shaq-2nd-round-exit-Giannis-with-Middleton-a-Title

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495955-Giannis-just-blasted-those-who-join-super-teams-in-post-conference-interview

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?493982-Devin-Booker-Vs-Lebron-James-who-is-better-currently

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496095-Devin-Booker-put-up-47-his-playoff-career-high-on-Lebron

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496253-Lebron-won-2-bronze-medals-for-the-United-States-of-America-How

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496256-Lebron-with-Tim-Duncan-Bronze-Medal-in-Olympics-Vince-with-KG-Gold-Medal

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496255-Lebron-with-Carlos-Boozer-No-Playoffs-Deron-Williams-with-Carlos-Boozer-WCF

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496549-Lebron-stacking-the-deck-in-2022-because-he-is-afraid-of-Devin-Booker

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?492941-1-Title-in-11-Years-for-the-Franchise-that-you-originally-played-for


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496831-times-when-each-top-10-player-all-time-Lost-when-they-were-expected-to-win

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?486706-Rob-Parker-LeBron-is-the-FFOAT

Record against teams with an SRS of 5.0 or higher.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?497187-Record-against-teams-with-an-SRS-of-5-0-or-higher

Not 3, not 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 or Playoff Mode Activated or A Storm is Coming
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?494319-Not-3-not-4-5-6-7-8-or-Playoff-Mode-Activated-or-A-Storm-is-Coming/page2


Playoff Mode: ACTIVATED
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?473762-Playoff-Mode-ACTIVATED

Lowest Scoring Supporting Cast Overall Playoffs
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?463869-Lowest-Scoring-Supporting-Cast-Overall-Playoffs/page3


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?499837-Greatest-floor-raise-of-all-time/page2
Lebron played with Shaq who won league mvp and 3 finals mvp's and lost in round 2. Lebron played with Peak Duncan who had won 2 league mvp's and 3 finals mvp's and won bronze medal. Lebron played with Peak Wade who won finals mvp and got outplayed by Jason Terry. Lebron played with Derrick Rose who won mvp under age 30 which was the same as Kevin Durant who won mvp under 30 while both were on Golden State and Cleveland. Lebron played with mulitple PER leaders as well and now Russell Westbrook a league mvp winner and more triple doubles than Oscar Robertson. Yet despite all of that Lebron lost with all of them.


Jarrett Allen vs Gobert and Jarrett Allen vs Lebron
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?499786-Jarrett-Allen-vs-Gobert-and-Jarrett-Allen-vs-Lebron

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500431-Lakers-were-1-in-Preseason-Odds-in-2021-and-Suns-were-14
Was #1 in Preseason odds and lost to a 14th seed in odds

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2021_preseason_odds.html

And Devin Booker walked them down in the playoffs with Devin outplaying Lebron. :confusedshrug:


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500416-Why-did-Pelinka-surround-Lebron-with-a-bullshit-roster
He has peak Anthony Davis, the best player on the 2020 squad and the reason the Lakers did anything as the 2019 Lakers missed the playoffs and 2021 Lakers lost in round 1 when AD wasn't around. He has Prime Melo who won a scoring title and all time leader in scoring for the Olympics. He has Dwight Howard a 3x DPOY and a guy who beat Lebron without HCA. He has Westbrook who is the modern day Oscar Robertson and also won league mvp along with average a Triple Double 4 years in a row. He also has Rondo who is a hall of famer.

Why didn't he play it against Dwight Howard in 2009 when Dwight was dominating http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?459570-How-is-it-even-possible-to-lose-to-Dwight-Howard-in-a-series-with-HCA/page10? Or against Duncan or KG or Dirk? Why did he run away from KD a guy at his position?
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?489748-When-KD-and-Lebron-go-head-to-head

Why didn't he do **** against Booker in the playoffs as well?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496095-Devin-Booker-put-up-47-his-playoff-career-high-on-Lebron


Devin Booker broke Lebron
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500264-Devin-Booker-broke-Lebron&p=14500724


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?503966-3ball-why-can-LeBron-win-with-Irving-but-KD-can-t&p=14584482#post14584482

Lebron won bronze medal twice and lost with HCA 3x. Jordan only won gold medal and never lost with HCA. Prove me wrong!

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500440-Russell-Westbrook-leading-the-league-in-Triple-Doubles-Thus-far-in-2022-Season
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/triple-double-leaders-2021-2022-stats

Expected Championships Won and Titles Over Expected
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500379-Expected-Championships-Won-and-Titles-Over-Expected/page3&p=14503600


How did LeBron go 10-16 vs Kawhi? 7-12 vs Shaq? 17-23 vs Curry?
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500334-How-did-LeBron-go-10-16-vs-Kawhi-7-12-vs-Shaq-17-23-vs-Curry

Top 50 All-Time List - Shot Clock Era = #1
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?497028-Top-50-All-Time-List-Shot-Clock-Era-1&p=14426360&viewfull=1#post14426360


Difference between Lebron and Tmac?
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?494830-Difference-between-Lebron-and-Tmac
Both 0-2 with HCA against 50+ win teams until they joined forces with someone who won as the man. Also won bronze medals.

Tmac lost to Utah in 2007 while Lebron was losing to a career loser in Dwight Howard and also Carlos Arroyo in the Olympics with peak Tim Duncan on his squad despite playing more minutes than Hakeem even played on the 1996 Olympic team.



LeBron's message that makes the NBA shake: A storm is coming
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500734-LeBron-s-message-that-makes-the-NBA-shake-A-storm-is-coming

https://www.marca.com/en/more-sports/2021/04/09/6070b833ca47418e588b45e9.html


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?480740-Vasileios-Spanoulis-gt-gt-gt-Lebron-James
Outplayed Lebron in FIBA and caused America to get another bronze medal and then Greece got spanked in Gold medal final.:oldlol:

http://archive.fiba.com/pages/eng/fa/game/p/gid/A/grid/75/rid/5152/sid/3507/_/2006_FIBA_World_Championship/statistic.html


First Time Ever a team with 2 guys who won MVP missed the playoffs
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?503543-First-Time-Ever-a-team-with-2-guys-who-won-MVP-missed-the-playoffs


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?503981-Why-does-Lebron-have-2-bronze-medals-while-KD-only-has-gold-medals&p=14584371#post14584371

https://media0.giphy.com/media/l0ErLeqamV3UOARsA/giphy.gif

[warriorfan]

I wish op’s dad gave him more attention so he didn’t turn out to be such a f.agget

[Johnny32]

this is a good point. when teams know you're a selfish chucker who only passes as a last resort...they have no fear sending an extra defender.

[Round Mound]

Not really its because he had the QUICKEST 1 STEP EVER. MJ developed into a very good passer in his peak years he just wasn't on Magic's, Bird's or Lebron's level as a passer.

[8Ball]

other stars like bran and magic use a ball dominator style becos they know how to pass and will punish a double team quickly. they have a better style that is more successful for team results and team play.

but if you are like mike and cant pass...why not double team him? he cant pass anyway so its maximum defense attentoin

was this was caused other chicago bull players to fall in the corners of the court waiting for a shot since mike didnt know how to pass? woudl ball dominator give him more then six finals in 20 years?

You can't double team LeBron because coaches have come to the conclusion that Bron is too gifted / strong of a passer and double teams barely work.

[And1AllDay]

Howany threads have you made exclusively about me? :oldlol:

he loves me :oldlol:

play in traffic retart

[Bacchus]

Michael Jordan Averaged A Triple Double When He Played As A Point Guard: 33.6 PPG, 11.4 APG, 10.8 rebounds per game

[Cyrus334]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbaqbclM08c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REHWe0C-gjc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFsukgQNUeQ

[And1AllDay]

Michael Jordan Averaged A Triple Double When He Played As A Point Guard: 33.6 PPG, 11.4 APG, 10.8 rebounds per game

no one cares about 10 games sample in the 90s :oldlol:

[HoopsNY]

Michael Jordan Averaged A Triple Double When He Played As A Point Guard: 33.6 PPG, 11.4 APG, 10.8 rebounds per game

Yea but Jordan's playmaking that year was a bit overrated. He averaged a good amount of assists as a PG where he drew comparisons to Magic Johnson, mainly because his passing was elite. But his playmaking didn't contribute to the offense like some would believe.

Chicago's ORTG ranking in the first 57 games with MJ as SG was 12th in the league.

Chicago's ORTG ranking in the last 25 games with MJ as PG was 18th in the league.

Chicago averaged 106 PPG the first 57 games, 100 PPG the final 25 games. They shot the ball at a 50% clip in the first 89 games, but just 47% in the final 25 games.

I was too young to watch MJ then but I think most people would tell you that MJ circa 1991-93 was a much better playmaker than he was in even 1989 when he went on that streak of triple-doubles, largely due to stat-padding.

[Full Court]

You can't double team LeBron because coaches have come to the conclusion that Bron is too gifted / strong of a passer and double teams barely work.

Another low-IQ post from a dumb poster.

Bronie doesn't get double teamed because he sucks in the post and lacks a mid-range game. All he can do is stiff arm his way to the hoop (and in recent years, shoot threes). Granted, he's very good at driving to the basket, but that's not something worth double-teaming.

Jordan always got doubled because he was as close to unstoppable in the man-on-man game as you could get. He'd kill you finishing at the hoop, in the post, or anywhere else.

[8Ball]

Another low-IQ post from a dumb poster.

Bronie doesn't get double teamed because he sucks in the post and lacks a mid-range game. All he can do is stiff arm his way to the hoop (and in recent years, shoot threes). Granted, he's very good at driving to the basket, but that's not something worth double-teaming.

Jordan always got doubled because he was as close to unstoppable in the man-on-man game as you could get. He'd kill you finishing at the hoop, in the post, or anywhere else.

I've never met a smart Jordan stan and this post is the reason why. Low IQ post. Not surprised.

[Full Court]

I've never met a smart Jordan stan and this post is the reason why. Low IQ post. Not surprised.

Yep, as I suspected. You have no actual rebuttal.

Full Court wins again.

:hammertime:

Not that it's hard winning an argument against a borderline imbecile...

[8Ball]

You can't double team LeBron because coaches have come to the conclusion that Bron is too gifted / strong of a passer and double teams barely work.

Thread cliffs:

LeBron doesn't get double teamed because coaches know he is the most devastating passer of all time.

Budenhozer, popovich, casey, steve kerr.

All COY winners never double team Bron after like 1 game of trying to do so.

All of said publicly that double teaming Bron was suicide.

I respect opinions of coaches over casual retards.

[Full Court]

Thread cliffs:

LeBron doesn't get double teamed because coaches know he is the most devastating passer of all time.

Budenhozer, popovich, casey, steve kerr.

All COY winners never double team Bron after like 1 game of trying to do so.

All of said publicly that double teaming Bron was suicide.

I respect opinions of coaches over casual retards.

The "most devastating passer of all time" wouldn't have the most turnovers of all time, genius. :lol

Nice try. Maybe if you were less concerned with cuddling Bronie's nuttsack you'd make an intelligent post for the first time.

[Spurs m8]

The "most devastating passer of all time" wouldn't have the most turnovers of all time, genius. :lol

Nice try. Maybe if you were less concerned with cuddling Bronie's nuttsack you'd make an intelligent post for the first time.

8ball is just straight up dishonest or stupid

[And1AllDay]

Thread cliffs:

LeBron doesn't get double teamed because coaches know he is the most devastating passer of all time.

Budenhozer, popovich, casey, steve kerr.

All COY winners never double team Bron after like 1 game of trying to do so.

All of said publicly that double teaming Bron was suicide.

I respect opinions of coaches over casual retards.

:oldlol: raped his azz :oldlol:

[Baller789]

8ball is just straight up dishonest or stupid

What do you expect from a guy who lies about being rich and successful? :(

[Johnny32]

Michael Jordan Averaged A Triple Double When He Played As A Point Guard: 33.6 PPG, 11.4 APG, 10.8 rebounds per game

lol tard has no clue how shamelessly jordone was stat padding to chase trip dubs and prove he wasn't a one dimensional chucker.

[Baller789]

:oldlol: raped his azz :oldlol:

Nope. Youre the same person.

This is the equivalent of you jack!ng 0ff then bragging about it to strangers :lol

[3ba11]

MJ averaged more assists than Lebron for the first 9 years of their playoff careers (85-93' vs 06-14') before the Warriors' pace and space era made offense easy and increased everyone's stats.

Furthermore, Jordan averaged more assists with low turnovers and without dominating the ball, so he had the teammate fits, development and chemistry needed to win organically

Btw OP.... the reason that Jordan could defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load in Finals) is because he had the necessary elite jumpshooting skill - this defeats maximum defensive attention...

But more importantly, ball-dominators like Luka/Lebron can't carry the scoring load with sufficient brand to beat Finals teams, so they need all-time scorers and elite 1st options at sidekick to nearly match their scoring in the Finals.. Otoh, off-ball experts like Curry/MJ can carry the scoring load with sufficient brand to beat Finals teams, so they can win with secondary scorers at sidekick like Wiggins or Pippen that require carrying the scoring load, aka defeat maximum defensive attention.

[HoopsNY]

MJ averaged more assists than Lebron for the first 9 years of their playoff careers (85-93' vs 06-14') before the Warriors' pace and space era made offense easy and increased everyone's stats.

Furthermore, Jordan averaged more assists with low turnovers and without dominating the ball, so he had the teammate fits, development and chemistry needed to win organically

Btw OP.... the reason that Jordan could defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load in Finals) is because he had the necessary elite jumpshooting skill - this defeats maximum defensive attention...

But more importantly, ball-dominators like Luka/Lebron can't carry the scoring load with sufficient brand to beat Finals teams, so they need all-time scorers and elite 1st options at sidekick to nearly match their scoring in the Finals.. Otoh, off-ball experts like Curry/MJ can carry the scoring load with sufficient brand to beat Finals teams, so they can win with secondary scorers at sidekick like Wiggins or Pippen that require carrying the scoring load, aka defeat maximum defensive attention.

Averaging more assists doesn't necessarily make you better. While MJ's passing is underrated (as showcased with the OP), he was more of a shot creator than an actual playmaker. His ability to pass was there, yes, but he wasn't on the level of a Magic, Bird, or even LeBron.

I think part of that comes from his mentality. LeBron is a pass first kind of player, so he draws up plays with that specific intent. MJ is score first, and likewise, his mentality followed suit.

You're consistently conflating shot creation, passing, and playmaking. LeBron excels more in playmaking and passing, where as MJ was more of a shot creator who was an excellent passer but not an excellent playmaker.

[3ba11]

Averaging more assists doesn't necessarily make you better. While MJ's passing is underrated (as showcased with the OP), he was more of a shot creator than an actual playmaker. His ability to pass was there, yes, but he wasn't on the level of a Magic, Bird, or even LeBron.

I think part of that comes from his mentality. LeBron is a pass first kind of player, so he draws up plays with that specific intent. MJ is score first, and likewise, his mentality followed suit.

You're consistently conflating shot creation, passing, and playmaking. LeBron excels more in playmaking and passing, where as MJ was more of a shot creator who was an excellent passer but not an excellent playmaker.


You just haven't watched Jordan much or don't observe well.. A beginner eye for the game would explain why Lebron's beginner skills (high screen roll ball-dominance) is all you can notice.

You think Jordan only passed when doubled and wasn't good at setting guys up or breaking down a defense - so you just haven't noticed or purposefully ignored.. Simple as that.

Double-teams aren't nearly enough to get Jordan ahead of Lebron in assists for 9 years.. That's weak and desperate reasoning on your part... The reality is that Jordan averaged more assists than Lebron for 9 years while winning more because he could do whatever he wanted with the ball - he was Michael Jordan.. No one in history broke down defenses easier, more efficiently/quicker, or more OFTEN than Jordan.. His goat maneuverability among defenders and shot-making elevated a goat passing ability that you apparently missed.. .. He made every type of pass or passing play that Lebron made and more.. He could dominate the ball with the best of em', but he's also the only guy in history that averaged 10+ assists in a series without starting at point guard or bringing the ball up (91' Finals).

And the proof is shown in the historical record - the Associated Press called Jordan the best PG in the league after 10 games at point guard in 1989 - his averages during the 24-game stint at point guard were 30/9/11, which included a stretch of 9 triple-doubles in 10 games.. This was 30 years before the "30/10/10" era where Luka and Westbrook make these numbers standard practice..

[sdot_thadon]

Averaging more assists doesn't necessarily make you better. While MJ's passing is underrated (as showcased with the OP), he was more of a shot creator than an actual playmaker. His ability to pass was there, yes, but he wasn't on the level of a Magic, Bird, or even LeBron.

I think part of that comes from his mentality. LeBron is a pass first kind of player, so he draws up plays with that specific intent. MJ is score first, and likewise, his mentality followed suit.

You're consistently conflating shot creation, passing, and playmaking. LeBron excels more in playmaking and passing, where as MJ was more of a shot creator who was an excellent passer but not an excellent playmaker.

Exactly this.

[HoopsNY]

You just haven't watched Jordan much or don't observe well.. A beginner eye for the game would explain why Lebron's beginner skills (high screen roll ball-dominance) is all you can notice.

I watched MJ for almost all of his career, so yes, I've watched MJ a lot.


You think Jordan only passed when doubled and wasn't good at setting guys up or breaking down a defense - so you just haven't noticed or purposefully ignored.. Simple as that.

I never said he only passed when doubled.


Double-teams aren't nearly enough to get Jordan ahead of Lebron in assists for 9 years.. That's weak and desperate reasoning on your part... The reality is that Jordan averaged more assists than Lebron for 9 years while winning more because he could do whatever he wanted with the ball - he was Michael Jordan.. No one in history broke down defenses easier, more efficiently/quicker, or more OFTEN than Jordan.. His goat maneuverability among defenders and shot-making elevated a goat passing ability that you apparently missed.. .. He made every type of pass or passing play that Lebron made and more.. He could dominate the ball with the best of em', but he's also the only guy in history that averaged 10+ assists in a series without starting at point guard or bringing the ball up (91' Finals).

You basically said what I said...."and shot making elevated a goat passing ability"....i.e., shot creation and passing. You're just being a stubborn Jordan stan who thinks I'm criticizing your idol. I'm not.


And the proof is shown in the historical record - the Associated Press called Jordan the best PG in the league after 10 games at point guard in 1989 - his averages during the 24-game stint at point guard were 30/9/11, which included a stretch of 9 triple-doubles in 10 games.. This was 30 years before the "30/10/10" era where Luka and Westbrook make these numbers standard practice..

Good, and what was Chicago's production as a result?

CHI in '89 w/MJ as SG: 109.4 ORTG (12th in the league), 106.1 PPG, 50.2% FG%

CHI in '89 w/MJ as PG: 107.9 ORTG (18th in the league), 100.1 PPG, 46.5% FG%

This is the key. It doesn't matter if MJ was a great passer because playmaking is what matters in this discussion. The fact remains is that in those games, Chicago performed worse with MJ at PG.

[3ba11]

I watched MJ for almost all of his career, so yes, I've watched MJ a lot.



I never said he only passed when doubled.



You basically said what I said...."and shot making elevated a goat passing ability"....i.e., shot creation and passing. You're just being a stubborn Jordan stan who thinks I'm criticizing your idol. I'm not.






MJ made every kind of pass and play, including many passes and plays that Lebron can't make due to superior maneuverability amongst defenders... Literally goatt maneuverability and completely unmatched by anyone.

And the 89' Bulls won more than the 08' Cavs and was arguably the greatest carry-job in history and the most upsets in the playoffs.. The difference between the 85-90' Bulls casts and Lebron's 04-10' casts is enormous..

Heck, do you want to know why the 09' Cavs won more games then the 90' Bulls?.. It's because they had the #3 defense compared to #19 for the 90' Bulls, while Mo was superior to Pippen offensively across the board (PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48, scoring, efficiency).

So how do you explain Lebron having a better team on both sides of the ball, yet Jordan still beat him to titles?... Jordan won the next year in 91', while Lebron lost as the massive favorite for 2 more years

[2much_knowledge]

other stars like bran and magic use a ball dominator style becos they know how to pass and will punish a double team quickly. they have a better style that is more successful for team results and team play.

but if you are like mike and cant pass...why not double team him? he cant pass anyway so its maximum defense attentoin

was this was caused other chicago bull players to fall in the corners of the court waiting for a shot since mike didnt know how to pass? woudl ball dominator give him more then six finals in 20 years?

Damn 20 years? I agree , he should have passed the ball more in 94, 99, 00 and specially in 01

And heres a fun fact, jordan ball made him more acomplished than both magic and bran

Next!

[TheMan]

And1allday/shooter about to spend another Saturday night at home on ish, starting threads about MJ

You will always be pathetic :roll:

Right? This jackass just furiously thinking "what thread can I make today to throw shade at the GOAT because need to tear him down so my boi LeBron can be on his level..." :roll: He's the very definition of the word loser..:lol

[Baller789]

Right? This jackass just furiously thinking "what thread can I make today to throw shade at the GOAT because need to tear him down so my boi LeBron can be on his level..." :roll: He's the very definition of the word loser..:lol

:lebronamazed:

[ImKobe]

lol tard has no clue how shamelessly jordone was stat padding to chase trip dubs and prove he wasn't a one dimensional chucker.

Was he also chasing stats when he averaged 8.4 assists with just 2.5 TOs for a title run?

MJ could pass, he was excellent passing out of double teams when the Knicks gave him maximum defensive attention in the POs. People say they shut him down in '93 ECF yet he had 42 assists to just 14 TOs in 6 games in that series on top of his volume scoring. Jordan's one of the better players in NBA history (might be the GOAT) when it comes to high usage and low TO rate and he was often asked to be a playmaker as the smart teams did not give him any space to operate, so they forced him into long 2s and some 3s but he still put up decent numbers. People say his Knicks series is the worst yet he put up 32/6/7/3/1 on 52%TS.

[Johnny32]

Was he also chasing stats when he averaged 8.4 assists with just 2.5 TOs for a title run?

MJ could pass, he was excellent passing out of double teams when the Knicks gave him maximum defensive attention in the POs. People say they shut him down in '93 ECF yet he had 42 assists to just 14 TOs in 6 games in that series on top of his volume scoring. Jordan's one of the better players in NBA history (might be the GOAT) when it comes to high usage and low TO rate and he was often asked to be a playmaker as the smart teams did not give him any space to operate, so they forced him into long 2s and some 3s but he still put up decent numbers. People say his Knicks series is the worst yet he put up 32/6/7/3/1 on 52%TS.

Read what i responded to, comprehend what i responded to, or stop wasting my time and go cry yourself to sleep thinking about your dead hero again.

[8Ball]

:oldlol: raped his azz :oldlol:

I am always right on this forum.

Coaches that have won coach of the year: budenhozer popovich, dwyane casey, Thibodeau, Mike D'antoni, Scott brooks.

None of them double LeBron and ALL of them saying doubling LeBron is suicide after trying it for a few games.

Meanwhile dum retards on this forum will try to argue otherwise and fall flat on their faces.

[8Ball]

The "most devastating passer of all time" wouldn't have the most turnovers of all time, genius. :lol

Nice try. Maybe if you were less concerned with cuddling Bronie's nuttsack you'd make an intelligent post for the first time.


8ball is just straight up dishonest or stupid

Thread Cliffs:

Coaches that have won coach of the year: budenhozer popovich, dwyane casey, Thibodeau, Mike D'antoni, Scott brooks.

None of them double LeBron and ALL of them saying doubling LeBron is suicide after trying it for a few games.


8ball: 8
Team Dingus: 0

[8Ball]

What do you expect from a guy who lies about being rich and successful? :(

Still thinking about my wealthy and successful life meanwhile disappointed in your own.

That's life. Deal with it.

[Baller789]

I am always right on this forum.

Coaches that have won coach of the year: budenhozer popovich, dwyane casey, Thibodeau, Mike D'antoni, Scott brooks.

None of them double LeBron and ALL of them saying doubling LeBron is suicide after trying it for a few games.

Meanwhile dum retards on this forum will try to argue otherwise and fall flat on their faces.

Hows the picture if your flat I'm asking for And1Allday?

[HoopsNY]

MJ made every kind of pass and play, including many passes and plays that Lebron can't make due to superior maneuverability amongst defenders... Literally goatt maneuverability and completely unmatched by anyone.

Making every kind of pass and play doesn't make you the better playmaker. What you're describing is shot creation, not playmaking. John Stockton couldn't do half of the things MJ could do in terms of maneuverability, including those maneuvers that enabled MJ to make certain passes. Yet Stockton was 10x the playmaker MJ was. His court vision was far better and he was able to execute plays at a better rate.


And the 89' Bulls won more than the 08' Cavs and was arguably the greatest carry-job in history and the most upsets in the playoffs.. The difference between the 85-90' Bulls casts and Lebron's 04-10' casts is enormous..

But we're not discussing the 2008 Cavs, nor are we talking about the playoffs. We are discussing MJ's playmaking and what he was able to do in the final 25 games of the 1989 season as a PG.


Heck, do you want to know why the 09' Cavs won more games then the 90' Bulls?.. It's because they had the #3 defense compared to #19 for the 90' Bulls, while Mo was superior to Pippen offensively across the board (PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48, scoring, efficiency).

So how do you explain Lebron having a better team on both sides of the ball, yet Jordan still beat him to titles?... Jordan won the next year in 91', while Lebron lost as the massive favorite for 2 more years

You're moving the goal posts now. Address MJ as a PG in the 1989 season. What actually happened? I'll tell you for the third time, Chicago fell significantly. They dropped were 12th in ORTG with him as a SG and 18th with him as a PG. They averaged 106 PPG with him as a SG and 100 PPG with him as a PG. Their FG% dropped from 50% with him as a SG to 46.5% as a PG. These are facts. If you want to talk about anything, it should be impact. And offensively, MJ's playmaking as a PG was not as impactful.

[ImKobe]

Read what i responded to, comprehend what i responded to, or stop wasting my time and go cry yourself to sleep thinking about your dead hero again.

You hate everyone outside of Lebron. MJ was never a one-dimensional chucker.

[3ba11]

https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-04-2022/_U1_et.gif



Making every kind of pass and play doesn't make you the better playmaker. What you're describing is shot creation, not playmaking. John Stockton couldn't do half of the things MJ could do in terms of maneuverability, including those maneuvers that enabled MJ to make certain passes. Yet Stockton was 10x the playmaker MJ was. His court vision was far better and he was able to execute plays at a better rate.



But we're not discussing the 2008 Cavs, nor are we talking about the playoffs. We are discussing MJ's playmaking and what he was able to do in the final 25 games of the 1989 season as a PG.



You're moving the goal posts now. Address MJ as a PG in the 1989 season. What actually happened? I'll tell you for the third time, Chicago fell significantly. They dropped were 12th in ORTG with him as a SG and 18th with him as a PG. They averaged 106 PPG with him as a SG and 100 PPG with him as a PG. Their FG% dropped from 50% with him as a SG to 46.5% as a PG. These are facts. If you want to talk about anything, it should be impact. And offensively, MJ's playmaking as a PG was not as impactful.


You're saying that playmaking = ball domination

Because that's what Stockton did... That's what Lebron does... They dominate the ball.

Similarly, Jordan played the playmaker role, but he just didn't do it ALL GAME like Stockton or Lebron... That's the only difference... Jordan's skills were more diverse so he could incorporate significant off-ball play that fit with teammates and allowed the best brand of ball (for the highest team ceilings/Finals records).

So that's what your simple thinking is confused about - Jordan didn't dominate the ball ALL GAME, so you conclude that he wasn't as good a playmaker.

But the facts tell the story - everyone said he was the best PG in the league when he played that position (see pic above).. The Bulls were 13-11 against teams that averaged 45 wins (playoff teams - the toughest part of their schedule).. That's excellent for a 1st time point guard and one of the worst casts in the league.. Jordan was a first-time PG at 26 years old and was already a goat-level PG and the best PG in the league - that's GOAT TALENT..
For example, Lebron would be a horrible SG if he played the position.

Btw, Lebron entered the league with the East all-star center on his team - the all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas added a 22/5/5 all-defender and future COY to make the 06' Playoffs as a veteran HIGH SEED - so Lebron never had a cast as bad as the 80's Bulls casts.

And everyone will have a better offense without ball-dominance, so it's no surprise that the Bulls were better with him at SG.. Jordan's offenses at SG were better than literally anyone ever and better than any PG offense - 115 ortg with goat margins above league average in 91', 92', 96' and 97'..

[sdot_thadon]

Bro Mj wasn't a pg, he was at the scorers table checking his numbers mid game ffs.

[HoopsNY]

https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-04-2022/_U1_et.gif





You're saying that playmaking = ball domination

Because that's what Stockton did... That's what Lebron does... They dominate the ball.

Similarly, Jordan played the playmaker role, but he just didn't do it ALL GAME like Stockton or Lebron... That's the only difference... Jordan's skills were more diverse so he could incorporate significant off-ball play that fit with teammates and allowed the best brand of ball (for the highest team ceilings/Finals records).

So that's what your simple thinking is confused about - Jordan didn't dominate the ball ALL GAME, so you conclude that he wasn't as good a playmaker.

But the facts tell the story - everyone said he was the best PG in the league when he played that position (see pic above).. The Bulls were 13-11 against teams that averaged 45 wins (playoff teams - the toughest part of their schedule).. That's excellent for a 1st time point guard and one of the worst casts in the league.. Jordan was a first-time PG at 26 years old and was already a goat-level PG and the best PG in the league - that's GOAT TALENT..
For example, Lebron would be a horrible SG if he played the position.

Btw, Lebron entered the league with the East all-star center on his team - the all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas added a 22/5/5 all-defender and future COY to make the 06' Playoffs as a veteran HIGH SEED - so Lebron never had a cast as bad as the 80's Bulls casts.

And everyone will have a better offense without ball-dominance, so it's no surprise that the Bulls were better with him at SG.. Jordan's offenses at SG were better than literally anyone ever and better than any PG offense - 115 ortg with goat margins above league average in 91', 92', 96' and 97'..

This is filled with distortions, moving the goal posts, and cherry picking.

You're correct that being a ball dominator to the extent that guys like Iverson, McGrady, or even LeBron and Luka, can be detrimental to the overall flow of an offense. It is obviously better to move the ball and create shots for teammates to keep defenses on their toes. No one disagrees with this.

But what you're doing in the same breath is operating as if this is the case all the time with great players like LeBron, Stockton, or Magic. This certainly cannot be said about Stockton or Magic. There's a reason why their teams remained as elite offenses throughout their tenures.

But you also cherry pick MJ's peak years, ignoring the triangle and the emergence of Scottie Pippen, who in many ways was as good if not a better playmaker than MJ.

You ignored the '89 numbers for Chicago when MJ played PG (which was a drastic drop off), then lets look at 1998? Yes, it was MJ's final year, but he was still very much in his prime.

Alonzo Mourning missed the first 22 games of that season for Miami. Similarly, Pippen was out during that same stretch. So how did MJ and Tim Hardaway perform and how did the Bulls and Heat perform as a result?

Chicago first 22 games '98: 101.2 ORTG (23rd ranking)
Miami first 22 games '98: 110.5 ORTG (3rd ranking)

CHI first 38 games w/o Pippen '98: 105.0 ORTG (13th)
CHI last 44 games w/o Pippen '98: 111.4 ORTG (4th)

What happened 3ball? Is Tim Hardaway THAT much better than MJ to run an offense?

Seems Pippen's impact is overlooked here. You're being stubborn in overrating MJ's playmaking abilities. He was good given what he had to work with, and his cast was not great, but even in 1998, he had Kukoc as a sidekick who didn't perform as well as he probably could have IF Jordan was as good of a playmaker as you say he was.

Kukoc became a full-time starter a week into the '98 season and in 27 games before Pippen's return, Kukoc averaged 15 PPG on 46% (40% from 3). What happened? MJ couldn't get Kukoc the ball? :lol

[3ba11]

This is filled with distortions, moving the goal posts, and cherry picking.

You're correct that being a ball dominator to the extent that guys like Iverson, McGrady, or even LeBron and Luka, can be detrimental to the overall flow of an offense. It is obviously better to move the ball and create shots for teammates to keep defenses on their toes. No one disagrees with this.

But what you're doing in the same breath is operating as if this is the case all the time with great players like LeBron, Stockton, or Magic. This certainly cannot be said about Stockton or Magic. There's a reason why their teams remained as elite offenses throughout their tenures.

But you also cherry pick MJ's peak years, ignoring the triangle and the emergence of Scottie Pippen, who in many ways was as good if not a better playmaker than MJ.

You ignored the '89 numbers for Chicago when MJ played PG (which was a drastic drop off), then lets look at 1998? Yes, it was MJ's final year, but he was still very much in his prime.

Alonzo Mourning missed the first 22 games of that season for Miami. Similarly, Pippen was out during that same stretch. So how did MJ and Tim Hardaway perform and how did the Bulls and Heat perform as a result?

Chicago first 22 games '98: 101.2 ORTG (23rd ranking)
Miami first 22 games '98: 110.5 ORTG (3rd ranking)

CHI first 38 games w/o Pippen '98: 105.0 ORTG (13th)
CHI last 44 games w/o Pippen '98: 111.4 ORTG (4th)

What happened 3ball? Is Tim Hardaway THAT much better than MJ to run an offense?

Seems Pippen's impact is overlooked here. You're being stubborn in overrating MJ's playmaking abilities. He was good given what he had to work with, and his cast was not great, but even in 1998, he had Kukoc as a sidekick who didn't perform as well as he probably could have IF Jordan was as good of a playmaker as you say he was.

Kukoc became a full-time starter a week into the '98 season and in 27 games before Pippen's return, Kukoc averaged 15 PPG on 46% (40% from 3). What happened? MJ couldn't get Kukoc the ball? :lol


The Heat's entire cast was vastly superior offensively to the bums that the Bulls had, including playing 4 on 5 with Rodman.

Without any scoring help, Jordan made the Bulls a slow defensive team that kept it close until the end (where Jordan would close with his GOAT clutch-time stats - we have these stats for 97' and 98' - MJ's clutch was far superior to anyone in history, even at 35 years old).

And 15 ppg for Kukoc at 2nd option?.. That's playing to capacity for him

Furthermore, the 98' Bulls were the 1 seed without Pippen and won IN SPITE of pippen that year - Pippen was horrible all year

The only reason the 98' ECF was close was because Pippen was wetting the bed with 16 on 39% at high usage... Ditto for the Finals.. Anytime a series was close or lost, it was Pippen's poor play that caused it like the 90' ECF or 92' ECF and many more

[Full Court]

Thread Cliffs:

Coaches that have won coach of the year: budenhozer popovich, dwyane casey, Thibodeau, Mike D'antoni, Scott brooks.

None of them double LeBron and ALL of them saying doubling LeBron is suicide after trying it for a few games.


8ball: 8
Team Dingus: 0

8Pauper's cliffs:

"I like to pretend I'm rich."

"I crave Bronie's nuttsack."

"I'm really dumb."

"I'm a butthurt dingus who can't win a single argument on an internet forum."

:roll:

[HoopsNY]

The Heat's entire cast was vastly superior offensively to the bums that the Bulls had, including playing 4 on 5 with Rodman.

Without any scoring help, Jordan made the Bulls a slow defensive team that kept it close until the end (where Jordan would close with his GOAT clutch-time stats - we have these stats for 97' and 98' - MJ's clutch was far superior to anyone in history, even at 35 years old).

And 15 ppg for Kukoc at 2nd option?.. That's playing to capacity for him

Furthermore, the 98' Bulls were the 1 seed without Pippen and won IN SPITE of pippen that year - Pippen was horrible all year

The only reason the 98' ECF was close was because Pippen was wetting the bed with 16 on 39% at high usage... Ditto for the Finals.. Anytime a series was close or lost, it was Pippen's poor play that caused it like the 90' ECF or 92' ECF and many more

I'll give you the Heat cast being better than Chicago's offensively. But the difference is too drastic, which you're not admitting. Miami was 3rd in ORTG without Zo in the first 22 games whereas Chicago went from being 1st in ORTG in 1997 to 23rd in 1998 in the first 22 games. So who is the clear difference maker here? It ain't MJ. It's Scottie.

So we have two samples, one with MJ at PG in 1989, where Chicago's offense dropped with MJ being the primary playmaker. Could MJ have stacked up assists in his career? Sure, but it wouldn't have been the most optimal way of winning. This is what separates MJ from the pack; he used his elite scoring ability to break down defenses which yielded better results. MJ was a solid playmaker between 1988-93, but he wasn't on the level you're thinking.

[3ba11]

Lebron was lottery with:



05' Zydrunas.... 18/9 and 2.1 blk.. 19.5 PER.. 0.149 WS/48.. #12 team defense
90' Pippen........ 16/7 and 1.2 blk.. 16.3 PER.. 0.087 WS/48... #19 team defense


^^^ Whereas MJ nearly beat the champs in 1990 with less help on both sides of the ball


09' Mo Will...'.... 17.2 PER.. 2.3 BPM.. 0.165 WS/48.. 3.1 VORP.... #3 team defense
89' Pippen........ 14.9 PER.. 0.4 BPM.. 0.080 WS/48.. 1.5 VORP.. #11 team defense

09' Cavs'..... #3 defense... 18 on 38% from Mo... lost to #4 SRS Magic (2 all-stars)
89' Bulls.... #11 defense... 15 on 40% from Pip... defeat #1 SRS Cavs' (3 all-stars)*


* plus Ron Harper (20/5/5)




I'll give you the Heat cast being better than Chicago's offensively. But the difference is too drastic, which you're not admitting. Miami was 3rd in ORTG without Zo in the first 22 games whereas Chicago went from being 1st in ORTG in 1997 to 23rd in 1998 in the first 22 games. So who is the clear difference maker here? It ain't MJ. It's Scottie.





There's tons of examples of Lebron having a garbage team offense, yet you don't use that against him to say he wasn't a good playmaker.

Heck, you're talking about the Bulls' offense in 1997, which Lebron never matched in 20 years - so your logic says that Lebron's playmaking skills are garbage compared to Paxson, MJ or Pippen, who shared the playmaking duties (MJ led in assists for nearly every playoff run, including 3 title runs).

Ultimately, it's hard to claim that Lebron's playmaking is better when his offenses are much worse despite more offensive help.

So again, Lebron wasn't a better playmaker, hence Jordan's higher assists for the first 9 years of their playoff careers, along with higher team offenses, lower turnovers, and more winning..







So we have two samples, one with MJ at PG in 1989, where Chicago's offense dropped with MJ being the primary playmaker. Could MJ have stacked up assists in his career? Sure, but it wouldn't have been the most optimal way of winning. This is what separates MJ from the pack; he used his elite scoring ability to break down defenses which yielded better results. MJ was a solid playmaker between 1988-93, but he wasn't on the level you're thinking.


Jordan's point guard stint in 89' was against the toughest part of their schedule where the teams during that stretch averaged 45 wins.. This explains the offensive drop-off along with the Bulls simply transitioning to a ball-dominant offense, which is inherently inferior to a more ball movement approach..

You don't seem to understand that the 90' Bulls had the #19 defense and much less offensive help than Lebron ever had - so it was a worse cast than Lebron's worst lottery teams in 05', 19' or 22'... Again, the 90' Bulls had a much worse defense (19th), while Pippen had lower stats than Mo Williams or Zydrunas across the board (less offensive help).. 05' Hughes actually demolishes Pippen the most (before he arrived on the Cavs).. So Lebron's worst teams had better help on both sides of the ball than the 89' or 90' Bulls - aka don't tell me Lebron would've had a better team or offense because he had worse teams despite more help.






it wouldn't have been the most optimal way of winning. .


Ball-domination NEVER is

Btw, Jordan was actually thrown into the Playoffs as an 8 seed in Year 1, while Lebron got 3 years to develop his team into a veteran high seed before entering the 06' Playoffs.. The all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas added a 22/5/5 all-defender and the future COY to make the 06' Playoffs, which is a comparable cast to anything Jordan ever had

With minimal offensive help, MJ had the #1 offense of all-time in 91', 92', 96', and 97' based on the 115 ortg and the margin above league average.. Lebron couldn't do that with Pippen because he had better offensive help but yielded worse offenses.. So your thinking on this is distorted - MJ carried Pippen to those great offenses - Pippen's production wasn't elite or dominant

[red1]

Lebron was lottery with:



05' Zydrunas.... 19.5 PER.. 0.149 WS/48.. -0.2 BPM.. 1.2 VORP.. #12 team defense
90' Pippen........ 16.3 PER.. 0.087 WS/48... 1.8 BPM.. 3.0 VORP.. #19 team defense


^^^ Whereas MJ nearly beat the champs in 1990 with less help on both sides of the ball


09' Mo Will...'.... 17.2 PER.. 2.3 BPM.. 0.165 WS/48.. 3.1 VORP.... #3 team defense
89' Pippen........ 14.9 PER.. 0.4 BPM.. 0.080 WS/48.. 1.5 VORP.. #11 team defense

09' Cavs'..... #3 defense... 18 on 38% from Mo... lost to #4 SRS Magic (2 all-stars)
89' Bulls.... #11 defense... 15 on 40% from Pip... defeat #1 SRS Cavs' (3 all-stars)*


* plus Ron Harper (20/5/5)






There's tons of examples of Lebron having a garbage team offense, yet you don't use that against him to say he wasn't a good playmaker.

Heck, you're talking about the Bulls' offense in 1997, which Lebron never matched in 20 years - so your logic says that Lebron's playmaking skills are garbage compared to Paxson, MJ or Pippen, who shared the playmaking duties (MJ led in assists for nearly every playoff run, including 3 title runs).

Ultimately, it's hard to claim that Lebron's playmaking is better when his offenses are much worse despite more offensive help.

So again, Lebron wasn't a better playmaker, hence Jordan's higher assists for the first 9 years of their playoff careers, along with higher team offenses, lower turnovers, and more winning..







Jordan's point guard stint in 89' was against the toughest part of their schedule where the teams during that stretch averaged 45 wins.. This explains the offensive drop-off along with the Bulls simply transitioning to a ball-dominant offense, which is inherently inferior to a more ball movement approach..

You don't seem to understand that the 90' Bulls had the #19 defense and much less offensive help than Lebron ever had - so it was a worse cast than Lebron's worst lottery teams in 05', 19' or 22'... Again, the 90' Bulls had a much worse defense (19th), while Pippen had lower stats than Mo Williams or Zydrunas across the board (less offensive help).. 05' Hughes actually demolishes Pippen the most (before he arrived on the Cavs).. So Lebron's worst teams had better help on both sides of the ball than the 89' or 90' Bulls - aka don't tell me Lebron would've had a better team or offense because he had worse teams despite more help.






Ball-domination NEVER is

Btw, Jordan was actually thrown into the Playoffs as an 8 seed in Year 1, while Lebron got 3 years to develop his team into a veteran high seed before entering the 06' Playoffs.. The all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas added a 22/5/5 all-defender and the future COY to make the 06' Playoffs, which is a comparable cast to anything Jordan ever had

With minimal offensive help, MJ had the #1 offense of all-time in 91', 92', 96', and 97' based on the 115 ortg and the margin above league average.. Lebron couldn't do that with Pippen because he had better offensive help but yielded worse offenses.. So your thinking on this is distorted - MJ carried Pippen to those great offenses - Pippen's production wasn't elite or dominant

you already lost the moment that you started your post with mo williams vs scottie pippen


remember how you used to argue that mo williams is more talented than pippen?




pippen led the bulls to 55-wins without baldan :roll:


how many games did mo williams win without the GOAT? surely at least 50, right? :roll:

[red1]

baldan would have zero rings if he played with mo williams as his second option for his career :roll:



you used to argue that mj would win the same number of rings (6 rings) by molding mo williams into a champion the way mj molded pippen into a champion - you're smoking crack cocaine if you think mo williams is ever winning a ring on ANY team as a second option. :roll:

[red1]

that's how I know for a fact that you lost 3ball and how I know for a fact that lebron is the GOAT - he exceeded every expectation and every fake argument that you ever threw at him :roll:


meanwhile baldan himself doesnt even COME CLOSE to meeting the irrational criteria that you, skip, and all of the other old-head MJ-loving lebron-hating stans threw at the GOAT (leGOAT).


baldan's career isnt NEARLY as impressive as you and skip seem to think it is

[3ba11]

baldan would have zero rings if he played with mo williams as his second option for his career :roll:



you used to argue that mj would win the same number of rings (6 rings) by molding mo williams into a champion the way mj molded pippen into a champion - you're smoking crack cocaine if you think mo williams is ever winning a ring on ANY team as a second option. :roll:


Lebron had the #3 team defense and got 18 on 38% from Mo, yet he lost as a massive favorite to a 1-star opponent in 2009 ECF

Otoh, Jordan never lost with a top 10 defense and 18 on 38% from Pippen

Jordan could beat Finals teams while defeating maximum defensive attention (carrying scoring load), while Lebron can't due to insufficient jumpshooting skill and brand of ball

[red1]

Lebron had the #3 team defense and got 18 on 38% from Mo, yet he lost as a massive favorite to a 1-star opponent in 2009 ECF

Otoh, Jordan never lost with a top 10 defense and 18 on 38% from Pippen

lebron is the GOAT bro.

jordan would NEVER carry that 2009 cavs team the way lebron did. that was the season that I started realizing how incredible this kid was - and I was already a lebron fan.


he had a 60-minutes interview that year and threw up an effortless halfcourt underhanded splash - with the cameras rolling :roll:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMJ7Q0aiV4I&ab_channel=CBS


24-year old King James.

[red1]

Lebron had the #3 team defense and got 18 on 38% from Mo, yet he lost as a massive favorite to a 1-star opponent in 2009 ECF

Otoh, Jordan never lost with a top 10 defense and 18 on 38% from Pippen

Jordan could beat Finals teams while defeating maximum defensive attention (carrying scoring load), while Lebron can't due to insufficient jumpshooting skill and brand of ball

that team wouldnt win 35 games without lebron. with lebron they won 66-games and had the best record in the conference.


best players were delonte west, mo williams, anderson varejao, and old z.


won 66 games.





how did those players careers go outside of lebron? did they ever win 55-games the way that pippen did?

[Johnny32]

comparing stats from different eras twenty years apart. why? because when we compare mj's championship help to his opponents help her argument falls apart. so desperate, so pathetic.

[ImKobe]

comparing stats from different eras twenty years apart. why? because when we compare mj's championship help to his opponents help her argument falls apart. so desperate, so pathetic.

Lol. MJ's discrepancy in his offensive/scoring output compared to his 2nd option is greater than anyone's when we're talking about the 2 best player on a dynasty. The same guys on this board that say that Shaq carried Kobe to rings are the same morons arguing that Pip had equal or similar impact to MJ when their gap in production is far wider in comparison. You're only exposing your own ignorance on the matter.

[red1]

Lol. MJ's discrepancy in his offensive/scoring output compared to his 2nd option is greater than anyone's when we're talking about the 2 best player on a dynasty. The same guys on this board that say that Shaq carried Kobe to rings are the same morons arguing that Pip had equal or similar impact to MJ when their gap in production is far wider in comparison. You're only exposing your own ignorance on the matter.

pippen was the best perimeter defender of the era alongside mike. scoring production wont measure that - every GM and coach in the league knew. plus some coaches overseas before the NBA even expanded. :oldlol:


thats like lebron playing with 2013-2014 kawhi - who never got injured :oldlol:

[ImKobe]

pippen was the best perimeter defender of the era alongside mike. scoring production wont measure that - every GM and coach in the league knew. plus some coaches overseas before the NBA even expanded. :oldlol:


thats like lebron playing with 2013-2014 kawhi - who never got injured :oldlol:

MJ was an elite defender as well but also did about 2x as much as Pip on offense and always produced better than Pip in every series.. When have we ever had a dynasty where a superstar carried his team to an extent like Mike did? The only dynasty comparable to MJ's Bulls is the Bill Russell Celtics and Russell never really carried his offense like that and obv he played against less competition. Pip was never on the level of Kawhi or Bran, he never carried a team to a chip or even close to it and never had the package on O.

[red1]

MJ was an elite defender as well but also did about 2x as much as Pip on offense and always produced better than Pip in every series.. When have we ever had a dynasty where a superstar carried his team to an extent like Mike did? The only dynasty comparable to MJ's Bulls is the Bill Russell Celtics and Russell never really carried his offense like that and obv he played against less competition. Pip was never on the level of Kawhi or Bran, he never carried a team to a chip or even close to it and never had the package on O.

yeah that's all true - mj is definitely the best scorer of all-time. I put him above kd.


how does that take away from the fact that he played on the most stacked team of his era? it's kind've an undeniable fact if they can win 55-games without him.


you're a kobe fan - how many kobe teams can win 50-games without kobe? let alone win 55-games and go to game 7 of the second round of the conference finals, without kobe playing a single game?

[red1]

thats how talented and well coached those bulls teams were.


they were capable of dominating the conference - without mike playing a single game.

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meanwhile lebron carries scrubs to the NBA finals - did it several times. jordan never did it once.


2007 and 2018 are some of the all-time GOAT carry-jobs - that will NEVER be surpassed :roll:

[ImKobe]

yeah that's all true - mj is definitely the best scorer of all-time. I put him above kd.


how does that take away from the fact that he played on the most stacked team of his era? it's kind've an undeniable fact if they can win 55-games without him.


you're a kobe fan - how many kobe teams can win 50-games without kobe? let alone win 55-games and go to game 7 of the second round of the conference finals, without kobe playing a single game?

I'm sure I could put Jordan in place of some of the other great players in his era (Barkley, Drexler) and you could make similar arguments for those teams. MJ had good-great help on some of those teams but they are not really comparable to most of the dynasties that had as much success. Some of the KB teams could have maybe won as much games with some luck but neither of them would have been as good either. The '94 Bulls had a mediocre Net Rating and went from 1st/2nd on offense in those 3Peat years to 14th.

[ImKobe]

meanwhile lebron carries scrubs to the NBA finals - did it several times. jordan never did it once.


2007 and 2018 are some of the all-time GOAT carry-jobs - that will NEVER be surpassed :roll:

Did Jordan ever play in as bad of a Conference as Bran did in '07 or '18? A team with a rookie Tatum and 2nd year Jaylen Brown got to the ECF, that should tell you it was not a good year for the EC. '15 Cavs made the Finals and they had 2 of the 3 total All-NBA players in the Conference :kobe: .

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I'm sure I could put Jordan in place of some of the other great players in his era (Barkley, Drexler) and you could make similar arguments for those teams. MJ had good-great help on some of those teams but they are not really comparable to most of the dynasties that had as much success. Some of the KB teams could have maybe won as much games with some luck but neither of them would have been as good either. The '94 Bulls had a mediocre Net Rating and went from 1st/2nd on offense in those 3Peat years to 14th.

bruh there is no way on earth that even PRIME shaq or PRIME mj could carry those cavs to 66-wins.



it is the most underrated feat in NBA history.


the best perimeter defender on that team outside of leGOAT was 6'3!!!!!! that's only an inch taller than me with shoes which is how they measured and I would be a MIDGET compared to all of the 6'5 and 6'6 with shoes wings that are REGULAR in the NBA!!!!!!!!



there's absolutely no arguing the fact that jordan's bulls were stacked relative to the rest of the supporting casts of the 90's


and not only that - they only played dogshit teams in the finals!!! :roll: :roll:





these jordan fans are IN A ****ING HEADLOCK RIGHT NOW!!!!! :roll:

[red1]

best wing defenders were 6'1 and 6'3 and best frontcourt players were talentless varejao and old man Z



carried that shit to 66 wins :roll:




thats GOAT status by itself :roll:

[ImKobe]

bruh there is no way on earth that even PRIME shaq or PRIME mj could carry those cavs to 66-wins.



it is the most underrated feat in NBA history.


the best perimeter defender on that team outside of leGOAT was 6'3!!!!!! that's only an inch taller than me with shoes which is how they measured and I would be a MIDGET compared to all of the 6'5 and 6'6 with shoes wings that are REGULAR in the NBA!!!!!!!!



there's absolutely no arguing the fact that jordan's bulls were stacked relative to the rest of the supporting casts of the 90's


and not only that - they only played dogshit teams in the finals!!! :roll: :roll:





these jordan fans are IN A ****ING HEADLOCK RIGHT NOW!!!!! :roll:

Those Cavs had great front court depth and solid production from the guard spots. RS success isn't everything either when Bran lost as an overwhelming favorite against Orlando with their star guard injured for the series. MJ's Bulls weren't stacked compared to the '92 Blazers, '93 Suns or the '96 Sonics or the Shaq-Penny Magic or even the Jazz. You can dig through that decade and find that Reggie and Stockton both outperformed Pippen in a lot of your favorite advanced metrics as well but you'd only use those metrics to downplay Kobe's success while disregarding them in any other debate.

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Those Cavs had great front court depth and solid production from the guard spots. RS success isn't everything either when Bran lost as an overwhelming favorite against Orlando with their star guard injured for the series. MJ's Bulls weren't stacked compared to the '92 Blazers, '93 Suns or the '96 Sonics or the Shaq-Penny Magic or even the Jazz. You can dig through that decade and find that Reggie and Stockton both outperformed Pippen in a lot of your favorite advanced metrics as well but you'd only use those metrics to downplay Kobe's success while disregarding them in any other debate.

you're ****ing retarded. I watched all of the big cavs games and lakers games that year.



you are absolutely retarded and couldnt be more wrong.



how come varejao and mo williams and delonte west are forgotten scrubs outside of leGOAT?

[HoopsNY]

Lebron was lottery with:



05' Zydrunas.... 18/9 and 2.1 blk.. 19.5 PER.. 0.149 WS/48.. #12 team defense
90' Pippen........ 16/7 and 1.2 blk.. 16.3 PER.. 0.087 WS/48... #19 team defense


^^^ Whereas MJ nearly beat the champs in 1990 with less help on both sides of the ball


09' Mo Will...'.... 17.2 PER.. 2.3 BPM.. 0.165 WS/48.. 3.1 VORP.... #3 team defense
89' Pippen........ 14.9 PER.. 0.4 BPM.. 0.080 WS/48.. 1.5 VORP.. #11 team defense

09' Cavs'..... #3 defense... 18 on 38% from Mo... lost to #4 SRS Magic (2 all-stars)
89' Bulls.... #11 defense... 15 on 40% from Pip... defeat #1 SRS Cavs' (3 all-stars)*


* plus Ron Harper (20/5/5)






There's tons of examples of Lebron having a garbage team offense, yet you don't use that against him to say he wasn't a good playmaker.

Heck, you're talking about the Bulls' offense in 1997, which Lebron never matched in 20 years - so your logic says that Lebron's playmaking skills are garbage compared to Paxson, MJ or Pippen, who shared the playmaking duties (MJ led in assists for nearly every playoff run, including 3 title runs).

Ultimately, it's hard to claim that Lebron's playmaking is better when his offenses are much worse despite more offensive help.

So again, Lebron wasn't a better playmaker, hence Jordan's higher assists for the first 9 years of their playoff careers, along with higher team offenses, lower turnovers, and more winning..







Jordan's point guard stint in 89' was against the toughest part of their schedule where the teams during that stretch averaged 45 wins.. This explains the offensive drop-off along with the Bulls simply transitioning to a ball-dominant offense, which is inherently inferior to a more ball movement approach..

You don't seem to understand that the 90' Bulls had the #19 defense and much less offensive help than Lebron ever had - so it was a worse cast than Lebron's worst lottery teams in 05', 19' or 22'... Again, the 90' Bulls had a much worse defense (19th), while Pippen had lower stats than Mo Williams or Zydrunas across the board (less offensive help).. 05' Hughes actually demolishes Pippen the most (before he arrived on the Cavs).. So Lebron's worst teams had better help on both sides of the ball than the 89' or 90' Bulls - aka don't tell me Lebron would've had a better team or offense because he had worse teams despite more help.






Ball-domination NEVER is

Btw, Jordan was actually thrown into the Playoffs as an 8 seed in Year 1, while Lebron got 3 years to develop his team into a veteran high seed before entering the 06' Playoffs.. The all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas added a 22/5/5 all-defender and the future COY to make the 06' Playoffs, which is a comparable cast to anything Jordan ever had

With minimal offensive help, MJ had the #1 offense of all-time in 91', 92', 96', and 97' based on the 115 ortg and the margin above league average.. Lebron couldn't do that with Pippen because he had better offensive help but yielded worse offenses.. So your thinking on this is distorted - MJ carried Pippen to those great offenses - Pippen's production wasn't elite or dominant

You're right about the last 25 games being against the toughest competition, so I concede to your point. Only about 5-6 of those games were against non-playoff contending teams.