Lebron joins a franchise and goes 1/4.. then he leaves the team in shambles

[3ba11]

1/4 in LA and Cleveland... and only a miracle prevented 1/4 in Miami (Ray Allen miracle)

Otoh, the best organic winners win MANY chips because they developed great chemistry and brand of ball - they didn't just form an all-star team like Lebron (talent-based winning).

Lebron's talent-based winning gets favorite status in Year 1 (11', 15'), but it's based on talent instead of actually being a good team (chemistry and brand of ball) - the talent-based approach goes 1/4 and leaves the team in shambles..

So Lebron is a talent-based winner that never learned how to WIN (organic).

You think this is bullshit?.. Okay, well surely there are many rookie bums that developed into viable producers on his watch (teammate development).. Surely his teams are viewed as smart teams that play the "right way" like the Warriors and Spurs, aka high team assists (brand of ball).. Surely his team's aren't low assist teams that get massively out-assisted in the Finals.. Surely he has a great record of teammates like Ingram, Hughes or Bosh playing to capacity alongside him (teammate fits, chemistry)...

So again, his frontcourt ball-dominant skillset has the worst teammate development, teammate fits, chemistry and brand of ball, so he can't win organically and must be a talent-based winner (team-hopper... all-star team strategy)... GM's must be willing to accept 1 chip and then the team is in shambles - this talent-based approach contrasts with the best organic winners, who win MANY chips by developing the best brand of ball and chemistry, which ultimately yields the highest team ceilings (Finals records).

The worst part about Lebron's talent-based approach is that the lack of brand and chemistry requires more TALENT - he can't win with secondary producers at sidekick like Wiggins or Pippen that average far less in the Finals - he needs all-time scorers and elite 1st options at sidekick like Wade, AD or Kyrie to nearly match his scoring in the Finals.

[Axe]

No pip?

[Johnny32]

1-4 > 1-9

[Lebron23]

Jordan failed to led the Wizards in the playoffs.

[1987_Lakers]

OP has destroyed MJ's legacy without even knowing it.

[3ba11]

Jordan failed to led the Wizards in the playoffs.


The 2002 Wizards were expected to win 18 more games than the prior year with MJ in the fold - they met this expectation of 37 wins (19 the prior year)

So 38-year MJ met expectation, while 37-year Lebron turned the preseason favorite into one of the worst teams in the league - goat underachievement - the most empty 30 ppg ever - pure stat-padding over winning.. the worst teammate fits ever.. low IQ

[3ba11]

OP has destroyed MJ's legacy without even knowing it.


All the polls show MJ still #1 despite not playing in his prime for 25 years - he's still the best 25 years later - that's how great he was - you simply lack the basketball understanding to appreciate how great he was

He will be the goat for another 50 years, and maybe even 100 or more.. 6/6 was a result of his goat skillset that allowed the best brand of ball and teammate fits..... At the highest individual scoring rates ever!!.. Led Wiggins to 6 chips while defeating maximum defensive attention (carrying the scoring load in Finals)

[And1AllDay]

1-9

[3ba11]

1-9


No one cares what happens in the first couple years of a player's career, just like no one cares that Curry, Lebron, Giannis and Durant were lottery in their first few years.

The only thing that matters is what happened in your prime and with good teams... No one has a better record in their prime (6 titles) and no one lost less with good teams - only Jordan never lost with a 1 or 2 seed, or with an all-star teammate (except the migraine and baseball years).

And Jordan has goat carry-jobs from 88-90', while ultimately carrying Wiggins to 6 rings

[Johnny32]

No one cares what happens in the first couple years of a player's career, just like no one cares that Curry, Lebron, Giannis and Durant were lottery in their first few years.

The only thing that matters is what happened in your prime and with good teams... No one has a better record in their prime (6 titles) and no one lost less with good teams - only Jordan never lost with a 1 or 2 seed, or with an all-star teammate (except the migraine and baseball years).

good point. mj can't elevate a sub-par cast to a top 2 seed. he needs everything perfectly in place to contend.

[3ba11]

good point. mj can't elevate a sub-par cast to a top 2 seed. he needs everything perfectly in place to contend.


The 09' Cavs had the 3rd-ranked defense compared to 19th for the 90' Bulls, while Mo was superior to Pippen offensively across the board (scoring, efficiency, PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48).

So Lebron had a better team on both sides of the ball, yet Jordan still beat him to titles - Jordan won the next year in 91', while Lebron lost again in 10' after adding Jamison/Shaq to a 66-win league favorite.. Then he lost again in 2011 with a super-team this time.. So he's just a loser that was coddled into winning a chip here and there... 4 in 20 years isn't a top 10 winning frequency and it's actually embarrassing.

Btw, Jordan's best teammate peaked at about 20 ppg (Wiggins-caliber), so all his rings were carry-jobs

Everyone in history needed teammates to match or lead in scoring for entire playoff runs, while MJ averaged 10-30 more than Pippen in every SERIES (except 2 when he averaged 8 and 4 more).. In addition to carrying the scoring load, Jordan averaged more assists than Pippen for their Finals career, playoff career, and regular season career, while getting more DPOY votes every year (except 96/97)

[Johnny32]

good point. mj can't elevate a sub-par cast to a top 2 seed. he needs everything perfectly in place to contend.

fax

[3ba11]

.
09' Mo Will... 17.2 PER... 2.3 BPM... 3.1 VORP... 0.165 WS/48
90' Pippen.... 16.3 PER... 1.8 BPM... 3.0 VORP... 0.087 WS/48

09' Mo Will... 17.8.. 3.4.. 4.1.. 59% ts... 115 ortg... 23.4 usage
90' Pippen.... 16.5.. 6.7.. 5.4.. 53% ts... 103 ortg... 21.0 usage


09' Cavs....... #3 defense
90' Bulls..... #19 defense




fax


The 09' Cavs had a far better defense than the 90' Bulls and far better offensive help

So Lebron had a much better team on both sides of the ball, yet Jordan still beat him to titles - Jordan carried a shittier team (worse defense and offense) to titles

[1987_Lakers]

The 09' Cavs had a far better defense than the 90' Bulls and far better offensive help

So Lebron had a much better team on both sides of the ball, yet Jordan still beat him to titles - Jordan carried a shittier team (worse defense and offense) to titles

Bulls playoff team without MJ

Cavs lottery without LeBron

[Johnny32]

good point. mj can't elevate a sub-par cast to a top 2 seed. he needs everything perfectly in place to contend.

example

lebron at 23 yrs old carried the cavs to a top 2 seed and the finals with hughes as his second option.
jordone carried duh wizards to the lottery with hughes as his second option.

[3ba11]

Bulls playoff team without MJ

Cavs lottery without LeBron


The 2010 Cavs were a 2nd Round loser (not 3-peat champion) and they lost their entire starting 5, not just Lebron - they lost Mo, Varejao, Shaq, Zydrunas and Delonte, which was 52 ppg combined

That's what team-hoppers do (talent-based winners) - they GUT teams - see the thread title

lol... too easy

[1987_Lakers]

The 2010 Cavs were a 2nd Round loser (not 3-peat champion) and they lost their entire starting 5, not just Lebron - they lost Mo, Varejao, Shaq, Zydrunas and Delonte, which was 52 ppg combined

That's what team-hoppers do (talent-based winners) - they GUT teams - see the thread title

lol... too easy

Wrong, Mo, Varajao almost played half the season in 2011 for the Cavs

Anthony Parker who was a starter in 2010 played 72 games in 2011

Jamison played 56 games.

Every role player besides Shaq & West were still there. Why do you continue to lie?

2011 Cavs record with Mo Williams: 8-28
2011 Cavs record with Varejao: 8-23

Still a losing record when the cast was healthy.

They lost 25 straight games at one point with a healthy Jamison as well. :lol

lol... too easy

[3ba11]

Wrong, Mo, Varajao almost played half the season in 2011

Anthony Parker who was a starter in 2010 played 72 games in 2011

Jamison played 56 games.

Every role player besides Shaq & West were still there. Why do you continue to lie?

2011 Cavs record with Mo Williams: 8-28
2011 Cavs record with Varejao: 8-23

They lost 25 straight games at one point with a healthy Jamison as well. :lol

lol... too easy


^^^ you just posted how the team was completely gutted and most guys missed tons of games (like the Lakers this year but much worse) - Lebron left the team in shambles because that's the DEFINITION of a team-hopper - that's what they do by definition (leave a team in shambles

The 2010 Cavs were a 2nd Round loser (not 3-peat champion) and they lost their entire starting 5, not just Lebron - they lost Mo, Varejao, Shaq, Zydrunas and Delonte, which was 52 ppg combined

That's what team-hoppers do (talent-based winners) - they GUT teams - see the thread title

[1987_Lakers]

^^^ you just posted how the team was completely gutted and most guys missed tons of games - Lebron left the team in shambles because that's the DEFINITION of a team-hopper - that's what they do by definition (leave a team in shambles

The 2010 Cavs were a 2nd Round loser (not 3-peat champion) and they lost their entire starting 5, not just Lebron - they lost Mo, Varejao, Shaq, Zydrunas and Delonte, which was 52 ppg combined

That's what team-hoppers do (talent-based winners) - they GUT teams - see the thread title


MJ left the Bulls in shambles after 1993 and they still won 55 games with Pippen getting MVP votes.

:lol

[3ba11]

MJ left the Bulls in shambles after 1993 and they still won 55 games with Pippen getting MVP votes.

:lol


The 93' Bulls were 3-peat champion, not 2nd Round loser (2010) or historic loser (2014)

So Jordan left his team as champions, while Lebron left his team as record losers and rebuild mode (shambles)

[Johnny32]

MJ left the Bulls in shambles after 1993 and they still won 55 games with Pippen getting MVP votes.

:lol

it's crazy how easily mj was replaced by a role player and a euro. bulls lose grant the following summer and nose dive in the standings.

[Johnny32]

lol he deleted that dumbass brand of ball post. i wasn't going to respond to it anyway.

[3ba11]

it's crazy how easily mj was replaced by a role player and a euro. bulls lose grant the following summer and nose dive in the standings.


The 94' Bulls only had a 22 ppg first option and a rebounder at 2nd option.

So they lacked on-paper talent, but Jordan built the team to that level via brand of ball

55-win brand of ball + Jordan = goat team.... But Jordan took many years to build the brand and triangle mastery to that caliber

Ultimately, 1st options are required to build a team every year, but Pippen destroyed a 3-peat dynasty to lottery-caliber in less than 18 months - the culture was gone after the 94' Playoff embarrassment and and the Bulls just sucked in 95' before MJ returned.

[sdot_thadon]

Op has such tunnel vision that he glosses over the fact that all 30 teams would take that 1 title in 4 years deal. Especially teams like Cleveland that had no titles in the previous 50. So much shit has to go right to win a chip that you can't take any of them for granted.

[3ba11]

all 30 teams would take that 1 title in 4 years





Yes but 1/4 and destroying the franchise is pathetic on every level compared to the best organic winners

And that's what our hypothetical GM is choosing between:

Option A is a "heliocentric" player (ball-dominator) that lacks the teammate fits, teammate development and brand to win organically, so they must be a talent-based winner/team-hopper that goes 1/4 and destroys teams

Option B is an on-ball/off-ball combo player like Curry or MJ that fits any teammate or system (coachable) - their skillset has the great teammate fits, teammate development and brand of ball needed to win organically (sustainability, aka many rings)

[NBAGOAT]

Bottoming out for a few years doesn’t mean your franchise is destroyed. You just lost your superstar it’s a great time to start tanking. Cleveland is doing so well right now with their young core there’s rumors lebron will go back again

[Spurs m8]

3ball facts

[red1]

better than jordan.


jordan has zero rings over a 70-win team.


has zero rings without pippen.


never won 50 without pippen.


pippen won 55 without jordan.

[red1]

you can blame kyrie for the cavs not having more rings. kyrie got injured the first year and bailed after his second healthy year.


kyrie said it himself.



you can blame AD for the lakers not winning more. lebron balled every year. AD only played 1 year out of 3, and surprise suprise, lebron led them to the ring the one chance that he got.

[8Ball]

Jordan failed to led the Wizards in the playoffs.

This is correct.

Jordan ruined the wizards franchise.

[RRR3]

Sniveldedrivelball

[ShawkFactory]

:oldlol:

Jesus Christ.

[Hey Yo]

The 93' Bulls were 3-peat champion, not 2nd Round loser (2010) or historic loser (2014)

So Jordan left his team as champions, while Lebron left his team as record losers and rebuild mode (shambles)

Those 55 win Bulls proved that there was no carry job by Jordan seasons prior. Just more false assumptions by Baldan fans.

[Johnny32]

Those 55 win Bulls proved that there was no carry job by Jordan seasons prior. Just more false assumptions by Baldan fans.

that and the 95 playoffs without grant. bulls were dominated by their former all def pf and lil 6'4 198 lb jeffrey jordan couldn't do shit about it.

[SATAN]

Dickhead makes another thread and goes 0/tens of thousands.. then he leaves his own life in shambles

[sdot_thadon]

Yes but 1/4 and destroying the franchise is pathetic on every level compared to the best organic winners

Oh I get it, you prefer to see 20 year treadmill teams that top out in the 2nd round. Due to the cba structure and the market more teams do hard resets on their rosters, more often than the past, get with the times. I don't care about your Lebron fetish in the rest of the post. I do want to Take a closer look at "organic" tho.

Organic means that a team made their team through the draft and is pretty much homegrown. Well hard reality check for you, most champions have traded for a key component to their wins, even your beloved Bulls. Tell me what team hasn't traded for or signed a key piece of their winning rosters in let's say....the last 20 years. Is any team really, actually....organic? Ha.

Your view of "organic" teams is super antiquated. You might as well be telling me the phonograph is the best way to listen to music. It's super outdated and time and advancement has given us much better ways to achieve the same results = music in our ears. You're stuck in a time where you had no choice but to build teams via draft, those days are long gone.

What are the organic teams of the last 20 or so years?

[ImKobe]

Those 55 win Bulls proved that there was no carry job by Jordan seasons prior. Just more false assumptions by Baldan fans.

Oh really? How did they do in the POs? Didn't they lose to a Knicks squad that Jordan beat every single time?

Also it's convenient how y'all always do the 55 win season argument and ignore the additions to that roster, or that they were barely treading water once Grant left and Pip was begging for MJ to return on national TV as his team was struggling to stay in the POs, and they went from a .500 team to 13 - 4 with Jordan that same year.

[1987_Lakers]

Oh really? How did they do in the POs? Didn't they lose to a Knicks squad that Jordan beat every single time?


The same Knicks team that held MJ to 40% shooting in '93. :lol

Kobe esque shooting

[ImKobe]

The same Knicks team that held MJ to 40% shooting in '93. :lol

Kobe esque shooting

How did Pippen put up more points on way better efficiency vs those same Knicks the year before as a #2 to MJ? Guess Pip couldn't get buckets when MJ wasn't there to take away all the defensive attention, huh? Knicks took the paint away from MJ and doubled him as much as they could and he still put up 32/6/7/3 with just 14 total TOs (Pippen had 24) in 6 games. Pippen went from shooting 51%FG/57%TS to 40.5%FG/51%TS as the man :kobe: . Guess being Jordan isn't as easy as you clowns claim it is, huh?

[Hey Yo]

Oh really? How did they do in the POs? Didn't they lose to a Knicks squad that Jordan beat every single time?

Also it's convenient how y'all always do the 55 win season argument and ignore the additions to that roster, or that they were barely treading water once Grant left and Pip was begging for MJ to return on national TV as his team was struggling to stay in the POs, and they went from a .500 team to 13 - 4 with Jordan that same year.

Bulls only needed to win 3 of those last 17gms to make the playoffs. Safe to say they would have done that without the quitter MJ.

[Hey Yo]

The same Knicks team that held MJ to 40% shooting in '93. :lol

Kobe esque shooting

:oldlol: ..... :applause:

[1987_Lakers]

How did Pippen put up more points on way better efficiency vs those same Knicks the year before as a #2 to MJ? Guess Pip couldn't get buckets when MJ wasn't there to take away all the defensive attention, huh? Knicks took the paint away from MJ and doubled him as much as they could and he still put up 32/6/7/3 with just 14 total TOs (Pippen had 24) in 6 games. Pippen went from shooting 51%FG/57%TS to 40.5%FG/51%TS as the man :kobe: . Guess being Jordan isn't as easy as you clowns claim it is, huh?

The funny thing is, Pippen did better as the man than Kyrie did.

Hell, Kyrie got swept in the playoffs with KD, now he is running back to daddy LeBron. :lol

[ImKobe]

Bulls only needed to win 3 of those last 17gms to make the playoffs. Safe to say they would have done that without the quitter MJ.

So you ignore the Kukoc & Kerr additions after '93 and how they won like a dozen games in the last minute in crunch time with Kukoc and others bailing out Pip :kobe: . And Bulls were on pace to win 56 games without Pip in '98 so it's not like they were trash without him either and they closed out the Jazz with him being injured & not much of a factor on offense. Bulls won many titles with Pippen playing like shit on offense in the biggest games.

[ImKobe]

The funny thing is, Pippen did better as the man than Kyrie did.

Hell, Kyrie got swept in the playoffs with KD, now he is running back to daddy LeBron. :lol

How? Pippen never won anything as the man. His crowning achievement was an all-time Game 7 meltdown vs Kobe, who beat him 4 times in 5 years in the POs.

[1987_Lakers]

So you ignore the Kukoc & Kerr additions after '93 and how they won like a dozen games in the last minute in crunch time with Kukoc and others bailing out Pip :kobe: . And Bulls were on pace to win 56 games without Pip in '98 so it's not like they were trash without him either and they closed out the Jazz with him being injured & not much of a factor on offense. Bulls won many titles with Pippen playing like shit on offense in the biggest games.

Damn, adding Kukoc & Kerr for MJ only equals to 2 less wins.

Reminds me of Kobe's impact on those Shaq teams.

Lakers record without Kobe from 2000-2004: 33-16


https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ce/8c/f1/ce8cf122be3f27838839c0a5ead0a1a8.gif

[1987_Lakers]

How? Pippen never won anything as the man. His crowning achievement was an all-time Game 7 meltdown vs Kobe, who beat him 4 times in 5 years in the POs.

Kyrie's team made the ECF without him in 2018

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ce/8c/f1/ce8cf122be3f27838839c0a5ead0a1a8.gif

[3ba11]

The funny thing is, Pippen did better as the man than Kyrie did.

Hell, Kyrie got swept in the playoffs with KD, now he is running back to daddy LeBron. :lol


Pippen lost in the 2nd Round just like Kyrie, except Pippen had a 3-peat team, while Kyrie was building a team from scratch

Pippen actually destroyed a 3-peat dynasty to 2nd Round and then borderline lottery in less than 18 months.

So Kyrie was far superior

Kyrie also had a high peak capability (27 ppg in Finals while destroying the league MVP), while Pippen had low peak (Wiggins-caliber).. Kyrie also matched Lebron's scoring for entire playoff run (16'), while Pippen averaged 10-30 less than Jordan in every series, except 2 where he averaged 8 and 4 less.

[Johnny32]

it's crazy how easily mj was replaced by a role player and a euro. bulls lose grant the following summer and nose dive in the standings.

no one ignored it, clown. just laughing at how easily your supposed goat was replaced.

[sdot_thadon]

Oh really? How did they do in the POs? Didn't they lose to a Knicks squad that Jordan beat every single time?

Also it's convenient how y'all always do the 55 win season argument and ignore the additions to that roster, or that they were barely treading water once Grant left and Pip was begging for MJ to return on national TV as his team was struggling to stay in the POs, and they went from a .500 team to 13 - 4 with Jordan that same year.

Why such a rush to downplay it though? It's significant because the goat was basically replaced with 3 role players and they only won 2 less games. They lost to the Knicks likely due to that horrible call by the refs, go watch it if you didn't see it live. There's never been a more perfectly clear example of a teams quality without their best player and the fact that it's NEVER been replicated before or since should tell you something about MJ's Bulls.....

[ImKobe]

Kyrie's team made the ECF without him in 2018

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ce/8c/f1/ce8cf122be3f27838839c0a5ead0a1a8.gif

Kyrie was better vs GS in 2016 and 2017 than Pippen ever was in any Playoff series of his career if we're keeping it a buck.

[1987_Lakers]

Pippen lost in the 2nd Round just like Kyrie, except Pippen had a 3-peat team, while Kyrie was building a team from scratch

So Kyrie was far superior

Kyrie also had a high peak capability (27 ppg in Finals while destroying the league MVP), while Pippen had low peak (Wiggins-caliber).. Kyrie also matched Lebron's scoring for entire playoff run (16'), while Pippen averaged 10-30 less than Jordan in every series, except 2 where he averaged 8 and 4 less.

1994 NBA MVP voting: Pippen finished 3rd, with 7 first place votes, 390 points overall
2019 NBA MVP voting: Kyire: 0 votes

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ce/8c/f1/ce8cf122be3f27838839c0a5ead0a1a8.gif

[ImKobe]

Why such a rush to downplay it though? It's significant because the goat was basically replaced with 3 role players and they only won 2 less games. They lost to the Knicks likely due to that horrible call by the refs, go watch it if you didn't see it live. There's never been a more perfectly clear example of a teams quality without their best player and the fact that it's NEVER been replicated before or since should tell you something about MJ's Bulls.....

They had a high win total because of their late-game heroics that year, and it was mostly with Kukoc making the big plays IIRC with some Grant and Pip and Armstrong sprinkled in there. If you look at the numbers, the Bulls cratered on offense without MJ and their Net Rating went from 2nd best to mediocre (11th) as well, which obviously meant that they were not close to as good as they were with Jordan (duh!).

[1987_Lakers]

Kyrie was better vs GS in 2016 and 2017 than Pippen ever was in any Playoff series of his career if we're keeping it a buck.

This clown always brings up defense when talking about AD, but completely disregards it and just looks at raw numbers when discussing Pippen.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ce/8c/f1/ce8cf122be3f27838839c0a5ead0a1a8.gif

[ImKobe]

This clown always brings up defense when talking about AD, but completely disregards it and just looks at raw numbers when discussing Pippen.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/ce/8c/f1/ce8cf122be3f27838839c0a5ead0a1a8.gif

Pippen is nowhere near Kyrie when it comes to basketball skills. The defense gets more overrated by the year. You saw how even a pre-prime Kobe torched Pippen off the dribble like it was nothing.

[1987_Lakers]

Pippen is nowhere near Kyrie when it comes to basketball skills. The defense gets more overrated by the year. You saw how even a pre-prime Kobe torched Pippen off the dribble like it was nothing.
Pippen locked up Magic Johnson like it was nothing.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6Y3IE2Pnhk

[sdot_thadon]

They had a high win total because of their late-game heroics that year, and it was mostly with Kukoc making the big plays IIRC with some Grant and Pip and Armstrong sprinkled in there. If you look at the numbers, the Bulls cratered on offense without MJ and their Net Rating went from 2nd best to mediocre (11th) as well, which obviously meant that they were not close to as good as they were with Jordan (duh!).

Late game heroics still count as wins right? I'm sure they do. So you mean to tell me a team losses the guy that takes all the shots and they become.....a different team? Holy shit batman. They still ended up with 2 less wins at the end of the day. And were pretty much a terrible call from the conference finals against a team they matched up favorably with. I don't think they beat Hakeems Rockets but just the idea of how close they were to getting back to the finals without Mj says alot.

[Hey Yo]

So you ignore the Kukoc & Kerr additions after '93 and how they won like a dozen games in the last minute in crunch time with Kukoc and others bailing out Pip :kobe: . And Bulls were on pace to win 56 games without Pip in '98 so it's not like they were trash without him either and they closed out the Jazz with him being injured & not much of a factor on offense. Bulls won many titles with Pippen playing like shit on offense in the biggest games.

Kerr was a nobody journeyman before Phil and Scottie got a hold of him. He didn't start a single game and avg the same amount of MPG as MJ's replacement, an even bigger journeyman, who was drafted in the 6th round.

Pippen only needed Pete Myers to get passed the first round. MJ needed Pippen to do so.

[Johnny32]

Pippen locked up Magic Johnson like it was nothing.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6Y3IE2Pnhk

someone had to guard magic. mj looked like a lil midget out there getting in foul trouble in gm 1.

[3ba11]

Why such a rush to downplay it though? It's significant because the goat was basically replaced with 3 role players and they only won 2 less games. They lost to the Knicks likely due to that horrible call by the refs, go watch it if you didn't see it live. There's never been a more perfectly clear example of a teams quality without their best player and the fact that it's NEVER been replicated before or since should tell you something about MJ's Bulls.....


The Hawks won 60 games with Horford as the best player.. That's the kind of team the 94' Bulls were - a paper tiger that had a fluke season because they had just 3-peated with everyone still in their prime and healthy - an unprecedented situation.

But again, it was a paper tiger - they had fallen from 3-peat caliber to 2nd Round caliber in 1 season.. And after the no pressure/honeymoon period ended in the 94' Playoffs, the real Bulls without MJ were borderline lottery in 95' and cratering fast (downward trajectory).

If they weren't champs from 91-93', they wouldn't be good in 94'... Only a 3-peat champ with everyone in their prime and more additions will still compete without their best player, and the Bulls are the only example of that.

[sdot_thadon]

The Hawks won 60 games with Horford as the best player.. That's the kind of team the 94' Bulls were - a paper tiger that had a fluke season because they had just 3-peated with everyone still in their prime and healthy - an unprecedented situation.

But again, it was a paper tiger - they had fallen from 3-peat caliber to 2nd Round caliber in 1 season.. And after the no pressure/honeymoon period ended in the 94' Playoffs, the real Bulls without MJ were borderline lottery in 95' and cratering fast (downward trajectory).

If they weren't champs from 91-93', they wouldn't be good in 94'... Only a 3-peat champ with everyone in their prime and more additions will still compete without their best player, and the Bulls are the only example of that.

Correction the real bulls without Mj lost Grant that year, who, let me refresh your memory....spanked Mj in the ECF and made them go out and get Rodman. Wonder if he called him from the parking lot?

Edit: and go back and address the post about "organic"

[ImKobe]

Kerr was a nobody journeyman before Phil and Scottie got a hold of him. He didn't start a single game and avg the same amount of MPG as MJ's replacement, an even bigger journeyman, who was drafted in the 6th round.

Pippen only needed Pete Myers to get passed the first round. MJ needed Pippen to do so.

Sure, like Jordan wasn't putting up 40-45 ppg when Pippen was still a role player to get past the Cavs.. If you have to result to those arguments you're clearly not going into your argument with any kind of objectivity.

[3ba11]

go watch it if you didn't see it live.





I just watched it and HOF announcer Hubie Brown stopped the video and circled Hubert's arm on the telestrater where Pippen obviously hacked him:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3FbvWSZQkY&t=01m28s


Here's a slow motion gif with the proper angle to see the hack:

https://i.makeagif.com/media/12-12-2021/LCBZJA.gif






go watch it if you didn't see it live.





The Pippen foul on Hubert only put the Bulls down 3-2 - they had every chance in Game 7 but Pippen choked again (8-24)..

So it was a clear-cut, solid win by the Knicks especially since the Kukoc miracle stopped a 3-0 lead

Pippen choked with the "sit out" game, the dumb foul, and Game 7, plus a bunch of other little chokes (https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-27-2021/_p33FZ.gif) in between (21.7 on 40% overall with woat 4th quarter stats (https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-21-2021/6q8E2n.gif))

If Pippen has woat 4th quarter stats in the 2nd Round, how will he compete with Reggie Miller in the ECF, especially when Miller owns Pippen (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?493657-Reggie-Miller-and-Pippen-faced-the-same-opponent-in-the-playoffs-6-times)?.. It's impossible

[1987_Lakers]

someone had to guard magic. mj looked like a lil midget out there getting in foul trouble in gm 1.

Facts!

[ImKobe]

Late game heroics still count as wins right? I'm sure they do. So you mean to tell me a team losses the guy that takes all the shots and they become.....a different team? Holy shit batman. They still ended up with 2 less wins at the end of the day. And were pretty much a terrible call from the conference finals against a team they matched up favorably with. I don't think they beat Hakeems Rockets but just the idea of how close they were to getting back to the finals without Mj says alot.

Sure, but the stats show that the Bulls were not as good and we obviously saw it in that Knicks series in '94. They did not have enough offense without Jordan and MJ constantly bailed them out on offense when Pippen was mediocre even by 2nd option standards. Of course they were still decent without Jordan with some additions in '94 but far away from a 3-Peat caliber team.

[sdot_thadon]

I just watched it and HOF announcer Hubie Brown stopped the video and circled Hubert's arm on the telestrater where Pippen obviously hacked him:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3FbvWSZQkY&t=01m28s


Here's a slow motion gif with the proper angle to see the hack:

https://i.makeagif.com/media/12-12-2021/LCBZJA.gif






The Pippen foul on Hubert only put the Bulls down 3-2 - they had every chance in Game 7 but Pippen choked again (8-24)..

So it was a clear-cut, solid win by the Knicks especially since the Kukoc miracle stopped a 3-0 lead

Pippen choked with the "sit out" game, the dumb foul, and Game 7, plus a bunch of other little chokes (https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-27-2021/_p33FZ.gif) in between (21.7 on 40% overall with woat 4th quarter stats (https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-21-2021/6q8E2n.gif))

If Pippen has woat 4th quarter stats in the 2nd Round, how will he compete with Reggie Miller in the ECF, especially when Miller owns Pippen (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?493657-Reggie-Miller-and-Pippen-faced-the-same-opponent-in-the-playoffs-6-times)?.. It's impossible

Bro, that's not a foul in 1994, in 2022? Sure it is. In 94? Yeah right.

[sdot_thadon]

Sure, but the stats show that the Bulls were not as good and we obviously saw it in that Knicks series in '94. They did not have enough offense without Jordan and MJ constantly bailed them out on offense when Pippen was mediocre even by 2nd option standards. Of course they were still decent without Jordan with some additions in '94 but far away from a 3-Peat caliber team.

Pippen the guy who made almost every all nba team and allstar team during that era? That Pippen was a mediocre 2nd option? Pippen was better than that, he was an MVP candidate that season. Let's keep it real.

[3ba11]

.

What are the organic teams of the last 20 or so years?





Spurs, Mavs, Warriors

Those are the main ones - Lebron's talent-based approach has a lottery record against these organic chemistry juggernauts

The Spurs, Warriors and Mavs developed the best chemistry in the league - that's what it takes to win organically

So Lebron/Luka can't win organically because their skillset lacks the required chemistry

They lack the teammate fits, chemistry, teammate development and brand of ball needed to win organically.

Lebron's frontcourt ball-dominance imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (team-hopping... all-star team strategy.. talent-based winning).. Guys like Ingram, Westbrook and Hughes cratered, so we know that Pippen would never develop alongside Lebron

[ImKobe]

Pippen the guy who made almost every all nba team and allstar team during that era? That Pippen was a mediocre 2nd option? Pippen was better than that, he was an MVP candidate that season. Let's keep it real.

I said "even when he was mediocre", as in Jordan carried them when Pippen wasn't good in certain match-ups or had health issues, and Jordan was always the best player in the series. Some of y'all try to act like it was like a Kobe/Shaq or Steph/KD or even a Magic/Kareem type situation when in reality Jordan was the clear-cut #1 and 3-peated 2x without another superstar offensive player. We don't have to shit on past legends to prop up the current ones.

[3ba11]

. Some of y'all try to act like it was like a Kobe/Shaq or Steph/KD or even a Magic/Kareem type situation when in reality Jordan was the clear-cut #1 and 3-peated 2x without another superstar offensive player. We don't have to shit on past legends to prop up the current ones.


Exactly

There's never been a bigger statistical gap between 1st and 2nd option than MJ/Pippen.

Everyone in history needed teammates to match or lead in scoring for entire playoff runs, while Jordan led Pippen by 10-30 ppg in every SERIES (except 2 where he led by 8 and 4 ppg)

Pippen has the lower PER, BPM, WS/48, PPG and efficiency than...... Everyone..... aka Kyrie, Wade, AD, Love

Pippen averages less assists than.. everyone... aka Wade, Kyrie, Westbrook, MJ... So Lebron needed more passing help in addition to needing arguably the most scoring help ever

[sdot_thadon]

I said "even when he was mediocre", as in Jordan carried them when Pippen wasn't good in certain match-ups or had health issues, and Jordan was always the best player in the series. Some of y'all try to act like it was like a Kobe/Shaq or Steph/KD or even a Magic/Kareem type situation when in reality Jordan was the clear-cut #1 and 3-peated 2x without another superstar offensive player. We don't have to shit on past legends to prop up the current ones.

Yall nothing, he was the clear-cut 1st option and Scottie was clearly 2nd just as Kobe was for most of his time with Shaq(I'll admit it was a closer debate tho) Pippen was very much a superstar (star by my standards, because i don't hand out the title of superstar as easily as you guys do here) though and I don't understand why it hurts so much to admit that. Mj had great help. Period.

[Johnny32]

I said "even when he was mediocre", as in Jordan carried them when Pippen wasn't good in certain match-ups or had health issues, and Jordan was always the best player in the series. Some of y'all try to act like it was like a Kobe/Shaq or Steph/KD or even a Magic/Kareem type situation when in reality Jordan was the clear-cut #1 and 3-peated 2x without another superstar offensive player. We don't have to shit on past legends to prop up the current ones.

mj scored more. he also attempted double the fga. pippen was arguably better at everything else.

[3ba11]

I don't understand why it hurts so much to admit that. Mj had great help.


It's because everyone in history had equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention for numerous playoff runs, so they didn't always face maximum defensive attention

Any period without facing maximum defensive attention is inflated stats compared to Jordan, who faced maximum defensive attention in every SERIES - he carried the scoring load in every SERIES, let alone playoff run.

Here's Kenny Smith explaining that MJ was the only 1-man show in history:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4UF6Xx3F2Lo&t=01m54s


Here's Shaq telling the truth about Pippen (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4UF6Xx3F2Lo&t=01m54s).

[ImKobe]

Yall nothing, he was the clear-cut 1st option and Scottie was clearly 2nd just as Kobe was for most of his time with Shaq(I'll admit it was a closer debate tho) Pippen was very much a superstar (star by my standards, because i don't hand out the title of superstar as easily as you guys do here) though and I don't understand why it hurts so much to admit that. Mj had great help. Period.

Most if you include the first 4 years where KB wasn't a superstar yet, but Pippen was never as close to MJ as Kobe was to Shaq. There was literally never a series where Pippen was as good or better than MJ. Jordan of course had help and that's never something I'd dispute in regards to those 3-Peat rosters, but I don't get why we must try to re-write history on the 90s Bulls in order to move Lebron or anyone else closer in the GOAT argument. There is no GOAT argument. That's the only issue I have when people discuss MJ.

[Hey Yo]

Sure, like Jordan wasn't putting up 40-45 ppg when Pippen was still a role player to get past the Cavs.. If you have to result to those arguments you're clearly not going into your argument with any kind of objectivity.

That's the difference, MJ needed to ball hog thinking that's the only way to win.

Pippen didnt do that in 94, his first year ever as 1st option. A total swiss army knife running the offense with an 8ppg starting SG whike also leading the defense.


Wanting objectively is pretty funny coming from you.

[ImKobe]

mj scored more. he also attempted double the fga. pippen was arguably better at everything else.

Scoring is the most important part of the game, period. Pippen was never a superstar on the offensive end. He came close in that one RS without MJ but showed his true colors in the POs. Pippen was not a better passer and their gap on defense is as small as it gets, you could argue that MJ was just as good on D at his peak and there are metrics that back it up, though obviously it's next to impossible to really quantify an individual's impact on the defensive end without team defense playing a role in those metrics. You can try and shift the goal posts as much as you want but Jordan is still the GOAT and nothing you post will change that fact.

[sdot_thadon]

Spurs, Mavs, Warriors

Those are the main ones - Lebron's talent-based approach has a lottery record against these organic chemistry juggernauts

The Spurs, Warriors and Mavs developed the best chemistry in the league - that's what it takes to win organically

So Lebron/Luka can't win organically because their skillset lacks the required chemistry

They lack the teammate fits, chemistry, teammate development and brand of ball needed to win organically.

Lebron's frontcourt ball-dominance imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (team-hopping... all-star team strategy.. talent-based winning).. Guys like Ingram, Westbrook and Hughes cratered, so we know that Pippen would never develop alongside Lebron
I'll give you the Spurs (but you must ask yourself where did they get key champion role players Kerr and Horry from?)

I'll give you the Warriors with a side eye. (How did they acquire Iguodala who basically led teams in Philly and was the key piece to get them over the hump in 2015? And do I even need to mention Kd here?)

And Dallas we all say they were organic, but were they really? (Marion, Butler, Chandler, and Stevenson were all acquired just the previous season. Kinda defeats the whole organic theme doesn't it?)

[ImKobe]

That's the difference, MJ needed to ball hog thinking that's the only way to win.

Pippen didnt do that in 94, his first year ever as 1st option. A total swiss army knife running the offense with an 8ppg starting SG whike also leading the defense.


Wanting objectively is pretty funny coming from you.

He led them to a mediocre offense without Jordan and his crowning achievement was sweeping an injured Cavs team on it's last legs. Great job.

[Johnny32]

let's take a deeper look at pip's dreaded offense and compare it to the bulls opponents.

91 finals - outscored everyone on the lakers
92 finals - outscored clyde's 2nd option by 5 ppg
93 finals - outscored chuck's 2nd option by 4 ppg
96 finals - gp outscored him by 2 ppg
97 finals - outscored malone's 2nd option by 5 ppg
98 finals - outscored malone's 2nd option by 5 ppg

no mj and pip wasn't a kd/steph scoring duo. they also weren't facing lebron/kyrie.

[sdot_thadon]

Most if you include the first 4 years where KB wasn't a superstar yet, but Pippen was never as close to MJ as Kobe was to Shaq. There was literally never a series where Pippen was as good or better than MJ. Jordan of course had help and that's never something I'd dispute in regards to those 3-Peat rosters, but I don't get why we must try to re-write history on the 90s Bulls in order to move Lebron or anyone else closer in the GOAT argument. There is no GOAT argument. That's the only issue I have when people discuss MJ.

Same reason we gotta stretch all the facts the other way to make it seem like Lebron isn't great himself I suppose. There apparently is absolutely a goat debate going on despite your refusal to acknowledge yet still participate in it, how strange.

[3ba11]

I'll give you the Spurs (but you must ask yourself where did they get key champion role players Kerr and Horry from?)

I'll give you the Warriors with a side eye. (How did they acquire Iguodala who basically led teams in Philly and was the key piece to get them over the hump in 2015? And do I even need to mention Kd here?)

And Dallas we all say they were organic, but we're they really? (Marion, Butler, Chandler, and Stevenson were all acquired just the previous season. Kinda defeats the whole organic theme doesn't it?)


Lebron is bad at teammate fits, chemistry and teammate development

Name a rookie that developed into a viable producer on Lebron's watch.

Waiting

He never developed a single young player because his frontcourt ball-dominant skillset imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (can't win organically)

[ImKobe]

let's take a deeper look at pip's dreaded offense and compare it to the bulls opponents.



Bulls went from 1st/2nd on offense to 14th without MJ in '94.

Pippen averaged 17.6 ppg on 40.8%FG/50%TS in the 2nd 3-Peat

I'm sorry but at that volume the 2nd option should be a little more efficient. You guys clown Kobe for shooting 45%FG at much higher volume but defend Pippen like he was Kyrie on offense.

[sdot_thadon]

Lebron is bad at teammate fits, chemistry and teammate development

Name a rookie that developed into a viable producer on Lebron's watch.

Waiting

He never developed a single young player because his frontcourt ball-dominant skillset imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win (can't win organically)

Oh nah, don't run from the subject at hand.

[Johnny32]

let's take a deeper look at pip's dreaded offense and compare it to the bulls opponents.

91 finals - outscored everyone on the lakers
92 finals - outscored clyde's 2nd option by 5 ppg
93 finals - outscored chuck's 2nd option by 4 ppg
96 finals - gp outscored him by 2 ppg
97 finals - outscored malone's 2nd option by 5 ppg
98 finals - outscored malone's 2nd option by 5 ppg

no mj and pip wasn't a kd/steph scoring duo. they also weren't facing lebron/kyrie.

jordan's help > his opponents help. deal with it.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I mean you're not wrong...

Lebron switches more teams than 'Johnny32' does his underwear.

But if LA trades Russ for Kyrie, really, what kinda shambles are they really in? :lol

[Johnny32]

should do this for all 10 of legoat finals appearances. since he's playing on...hurrr, super teams, durrr.

[3ba11]

let's take a deeper look at pip's dreaded offense and compare it to the bulls opponents.

91 finals - outscored everyone on the lakers
92 finals - outscored clyde's 2nd option by 5 ppg
93 finals - outscored chuck's 2nd option by 4 ppg
96 finals - gp outscored him by 2 ppg
97 finals - outscored malone's 2nd option by 5 ppg
98 finals - outscored malone's 2nd option by 5 ppg

no mj and pip wasn't a kd/steph scoring duo. they also weren't facing lebron/kyrie.


https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg



Pippen had the worst efficiency of any sidekick, which confirms that he couldn't handle the 2nd option load - his true shooting in the playoffs was below league-average for every year except 89-91'.

And Terry Porter carried the Blazers in the 92' WCF with 26/8 and 53% on threes (6 attempts) - his Finals runs in 90' and 92' were far greater than any run that Pippen ever had, but he was locked up in the Finals (partly by Jordan).. This is standard - Stockton carried the Jazz in the 97' WCF by playing far better than Pippen ever has, but he was locked up in the Finals (partly by MJ).

Pippen is the only 90's sidekick that never dominated a series or achieved elite stats in any category (ppg, rpg, apg).. He's the only 90's sidekick that couldn't achieve elite scoring and therefore forced his #1 option to face maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load) - only MJ had to face maximum defensive attention

[Johnny32]

https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg



Pippen had the worst efficiency of any sidekick, which confirms that he couldn't handle the 2nd option load - his true shooting in the playoffs was below league-average for every year except 89-91'.

And Terry Porter carried the Blazers in the 92' WCF with 26/8 and 53% on threes (6 attempts) - his Finals runs in 90' and 92' were far greater than any run that Pippen ever had, but he was locked up in the Finals (partly by Jordan).. This is standard - Stockton carried the Jazz in the 97' WCF by playing far better than Pippen ever has, but he was locked up in the Finals (partly by MJ).

Pippen is the only 90's sidekick that never dominated a series or achieved elite stats in any category (ppg, rpg, apg).. He's the only 90's sidekick that couldn't achieve elite scoring and therefore forced his #1 option to face maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load) - only MJ had to face maximum defensive attention

your desperately trying to compare stats across eras again. i understand my post has to hurt.

[Phoenix]

Pippen is the only 90's sidekick that never dominated a series or achieved elite stats in any category (ppg, rpg, apg).. He's the only 90's sidekick that couldn't achieve elite scoring and therefore forced his #1 option to face maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load) - only MJ had to face maximum defensive attention

I'm bored so I'll give you some attention for a few minutes. Define elite stats.

[3ba11]

Oh nah, don't run from the subject at hand.


The topic is how Lebron lacks the skillset or IQ to have good teammate fits and teammate development, so he can't win organically

You want to split hairs about whether Curry, Duncan or Dirk won organically or not... But they worked for years to develop favorite status by building chemistry and brand of ball - they didn't get favorite status in Year 1 by forming a super-team - Lebron hand-picked the preseason favorite from 11-16'... Getting favorite status in Year 1 is the easiest path possible and much easier than building favorite status over numerous years

[3ba11]

I'm bored so I'll give you some attention for a few minutes. Define elite stats.


25.0 ppg

10.0 rpg

8.0 apg


Kemp, Payton, Terry Porter, and Stockton routinely achieved these marks in one or more categories

They were true 1b's with elite production capability, while Pippen was ...... Wiggins-caliber... Iggy-caliber production

[sdot_thadon]

The topic is how Lebron lacks the skillset or IQ to have good teammate fits and teammate development, so he can't win organically

You want to split hairs about whether Curry, Duncan or Dirk won organically or not... But they worked for years to develop favorite status by building chemistry and brand of ball - they didn't get favorite status in Year 1 by forming a super-team - Lebron hand-picked the preseason favorite from 11-16'... Getting favorite status in Year 1 is the easiest path possible and much easier than building favorite status over numerous years

Side step away buddy, I asked about organic teams. I'm not really interested in your failure of a crusade against Lebron. The wars been over for years and you're still sniping out of a tree, oblivious.

[3ba11]

Side step away buddy, I asked about organic teams. I'm not really interested in your failure of a crusade against Lebron. The wars been over for years and you're still sniping out of a tree, oblivious.


You were originally responding to me and changed the topic to whether Curry/Dirk/Duncan won organically

They obviously did and took a path of higher integrity than Lebron, WHO HAND-PICKED THE PRESEASON FAVORITE FROM 11-16'.

Lebron formed super-teams to win (and still mostly lost), while they developed teammates and chemistry to win.

So you derailed the thread as usual because you can't respond to the thread title - Lebron lacks the skillset or IQ to win organically, so he goes 1/4 with a talent-based approach and leaves the team in shambles

[Johnny32]

bulls traded oakley (who jordan couldn't win with organically) for their starting championship center bill cartwright.

hurrr, not organic, durrr.

bulls signed rodman as a fa after failing to win without ho grant.

hurrr, not organic, durrr.

[sdot_thadon]

You were originally responding to me and changed the topic to whether Curry/Dirk/Duncan won organically

They obviously did and took a path of higher integrity than Lebron, WHO HAND-PICKED THE PRESEASON FAVORITE FROM 11-16'.

But talking about Curry or Duncan is a derail - this thread is about Lebron being unable to win organically, so he goes 1/4 with a talent-based approach and leaves the team in shambles

I suppose it was a derail, but really an attempt to get something different than this same tired discussion that doesn't have any more merit the 1000th time than it did the 1st time you posted it. And yeah you even stumble over your own definitions used in said debate as shown here with the simple word organic. Your version of organic doesn't even match up with the teams you assign it to. Wow.

[3ba11]

bulls traded oakley (who jordan couldn't win with organically) for their starting championship center bill cartwright.

hurrr, not organic, durrr.

bulls signed rodman as a fa after failing to win without ho grant.

hurrr, not organic, durrr.



All that is organic

What isn't organic is forming super-teams and team-hopping around so you always have a stacked, preseason favorite (league favorite)

[Phoenix]

25.0 ppg

10.0 rpg

8.0 apg


Kemp, Payton, Terry Porter, and Stockton routinely achieved these marks in one or more categories

They were true 1b's with elite production capability, while Pippen was ...... Wiggins-caliber... Iggy-caliber production

So you want Scottie to score like a first option, rebound like a center, and assist like a PG. Which of those players achieved all of those numbers in one series? The series you're blowing Terry Porter over in 92, he averaged 4 rebounds. John Stockton has ONE playoff run scoring over 20ppg, in 1989,and 3 games isn't even long enough to be a run. While averaging 3 rebounds.There's nothing 'routine' about one 3 game series in a 20 season career and he never got CLOSE to averaging 20ppg in the playoffs outside of that year and 88( 19.5) I don't even have to bother looking up info for Kemp to know he never averaged 8 assists in a playoff series, nor has Payton averaged 10 rebounds in a series.

Why isn't doing something like 21/8/8....like Scottie did in the 92 finals, overall elite production?

You say Pippen was Wiggins level. Show me the series he dropped the above statline.....I'll wait.

[Johnny32]

So you want Scottie to score like a first option, rebound like a center, and assist like a PG.

he basically wants scottie to be playoff lebron james.

[sdot_thadon]

All that is organic

What isn't organic is forming super-teams and team-hopping around so you always have a stacked, preseason favorite (league favorite)

We get it bro, if it happened for Lebron's team? Inorganic. Anyone else? Organic.

[Johnny32]

All that is organic

What isn't organic is forming super-teams and team-hopping around so you always have a stacked, preseason favorite (league favorite)

the bulls were forced to make both moves because jordan couldn't win the previous seasons. not organic.

[3ba11]

So you want Scottie to score like a first option, rebound like a center, and assist like a PG. Which of those players achieved all of those numbers in one series? The series you're blowing Terry Porter over in 92, he averaged 4 rebounds. John Stockton has ONE playoff run scoring over 20oog, in 1989,and 3 games isn't even long enough to be a run. While averaging 3 rebounds. I don't even have to bother looking up info for Kemp to know he never averaged 8 assists in a playoff series, nor has Payton averaged 10 rebounds in a series.

Why isn't doing something like 21/8/8....like Scottie did in the 92 finals, overall elite production?

You say Pippen was Wiggins level. Show me the series he dropped the above statline.....I'll wait.


Pippen wasn't capable of averaging 20/10 but Kemp, Payton and Stockton were because they were elite scorers, rebounders or passers...

Otoh, Pippen was elite at nothing... His low peak capability meant that he was never gameplanned for - he wasn't a threat to go off or get elite production like Stockton or Kemp or Porter..

Heck, Stockton is arguably the goat playmaker and was literally MJ in the clutch (MJ and Stockton stand alone in clutch stats for 97' and 98' Playoffs).. Otoh, Pippen is nowhere near being an elite producer and "1b" leader of the team - he was Wiggins or Iggy caliber with low peak stats that averaged far less than the #1 option.

[Phoenix]

he basically wants scottie to be playoff lebron james.

Literally, he wants him to produce some Lebron statlines......as a 2nd option.

[3ba11]

the bulls were forced to make both moves because jordan couldn't win the previous seasons. not organic.


Picking up role players to fortify minor roles doesn't allow the team to win via talent.

Significant development of chemistry, teammates and brand of ball is still required

Otoh, forming super-teams allows winning via sheer talent, so learning how to fit with teammates and have great brand of ball isn't necessary

Lebron is a talent-based winner that never learned how to WIN (organic.. chemistry.. brand of ball)

[Phoenix]

Pippen wasn't capable of averaging 20/10 but Kemp, Payton and Stockton were because they were elite scorers, rebounders or passers...

Otoh, Pippen was elite at nothing... His low peak capability meant that he was never gameplanned for - he wasn't a threat to go off or get elite production like Stockton or Kemp or Porter..

Heck, Stockton is arguably the goat playmaker and was literally MJ in the clutch (MJ and Stockton stand alone in clutch stats for 97' and 98' Playoffs).. Otoh, Pippen is nowhere near being an elite producer and "1b" leader of the team - he was Wiggins or Iggy caliber

Why would you expect Scottie to grab 10 boards as a small forward, especially when you got Horace Grant there averaging 10 boards himself? How many small forwards other than Grant Hill was averaging more rebounds than Scottie in general? You throw out arbitrary numbers without any sort of sense or context.

Nobody gameplanned for John Stockton averaging 15ppg. FOH. Stockton was an opportunistic scorer.

Still waiting for the Wiggins playoff series where he dropped 21/8/8. Back up yourt bullshit please.

[3ba11]

Why would you expect Scottie to grab 10 boards as a small forward, especually when you got Horace Grant there averaging 10 boards himself? How many small forwards other than Grant Hill was averaging more rebounds than Scottie in general? You throw out arbitrary numbers without any sort or sense or context.

Nobosy gameplanned for John Stockton averaging 15ppg. FOH. Stockton was an opportunistic scorer.

Still waiting for the Wiggins playoff series where he dropped 21/8/8. Back up yourt bullshit please.


2nd scoring options on championship teams typically score close to the #1 option in many series or playoff runs, and sometimes even more.

So Pippen is one of the rarer sidekicks like Lowry, or Wiggins or Terry - these guys won by having secondary stats that were nowhere near the #1 option - this makes it harder for the #1 option because they must defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load)

[Phoenix]

2nd scoring options on championship teams typically score close to the #1 option in many series or playoff runs, and sometimes even more.

So Pippen is one of the rarer sidekicks like Lowry, or Wiggins - these guys won by having secondary stats that were nowhere near the #1 option - this makes it harder for the #1 option because they must defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load)

Where's the series where Wiggins dropped 21/8/8? You're on the clock....

[3ba11]

Where's the series where Wiggins dropped 21/8/8?


Wiggins Finals was equal to Pippen's 4th-best Finals (97') and better than 2 of Pippen's Finals (96' and 98')

So maybe 21/8/8 is coming next year

That's the thing about Wiggins - he spent most of his career developing a bad reputation Minnesota - he would be HOF already if he started his career alongside Curry and had a few rings already...

That's what happened to Pippen - he gets inflated because his reputation started out great alongside MJ - he wasn't exposed until he went to Houston and Portland.. Surely if he started his career in Houston or Portland, he would've had a bad rep like Wiggins did

[Johnny32]

Picking up role players to fortify minor roles doesn't allow the team to win via talent.

Significant development of chemistry, teammates and brand of ball is still required

Otoh, forming super-teams allows winning via sheer talent, so learning how to fit with teammates and have great brand of ball isn't necessary

Lebron is a talent-based winner that never learned how to WIN (organic.. chemistry.. brand of ball)

oak was arguably the bulls second best player in 88. the bulls were forced to trade him because mj couldn't win with him. not organic by definition. you lose, again.

[StrongLurk]

OP crying again? What's new.

[3ba11]

oak was arguably the bulls second best player in 88. the bulls were forced to trade him because mj couldn't win with him. not organic by definition. you lose, again.


Cartwright was a downgrade from Oakley - he didn't allow the Bulls to be favorites based on his talent - significant development of chemistry, teammates and brand of ball was still required

Otoh, forming super-teams allows favorite status via sheer talent, so learning how to fit with teammates and have great brand of ball isn't necessary

Lebron is a talent-based winner that never learned how to WIN (organic.. chemistry.. brand of ball)

[Phoenix]

Wiggins Finals was equal to Pippen's 4th-best Finals (97') and better than 2 of Pippen's Finals (96' and 98')

So maybe 21/8/8 is coming next year

That's the thing about Wiggins - he spent most of his career developing a bad reputation Minnesota - he would be HOF already if he started his career alongside Curry and had a few rings already...

That's what happened to Pippen - he gets inflated because his reputation started out great alongside MJ - he wasn't exposed until he went to Houston and Portland.. Surely if he started his career in Houston or Portland, he would've had a bad rep like Wiggins did

Maybe has no relevance here. You said Pippen offered Wiggins production so I want to see where and when Wiggins produced that statline or better. Not what you think he 'may' do. FOH.

Threadcliffs, you wanted Scottie to score like a first option, rebound like a center, and assist like a PG. If he did that, he'd literally have been the best player in the league.

[3ba11]

Maybe has no relevance here. You said Pippen offers Wiggins production so I want to see where Wiggins produced that statline or better. Not what you think he 'may' do.

Threadcliffs, you wanted Scottie to score like a first option, rebound like a center, and assist like a PG. If he did that, he'd literally have been the best player in the league.


Wiggins averaged 24 ppg in Minnesota (outside the dynasty system)

Pippen never did that even WITH the system... So Pippen doesn't match up to Wiggins.. Pippen was infact a 14 ppg dunker that couldn't score outside the triangle

For their Finals career, Pippen averages 19 on 42% compared to 18 on 45% for Wiggins... The only difference is that Pippen got to play with MJ from his rookie year, while Wiggins didn't play with Curry until later in his career... So Wiggins has a loser reputation from his Minnesota days, while Pippen was saved by landing next to Mike, instead of Houston, for example.

[Johnny32]

Otoh, forming super-teams allows winning via sheer talent, so learning how to fit with teammates and have great brand of ball isn't necessary

does it though?

dream, pippen, barkley
shaq, kobe, malone, gp
westbrook, pg13, melo
kobe, dwight, gasol, nash
kd, kyrie, blake, aldridge

[3ba11]

does it though?

dream, pippen, barkley
shaq, kobe, malone, gp
westbrook, pg13, melo
kobe, dwight, gasol, nash
kd, kyrie, blake, aldridge


Forming super-teams allows preseason favorite status in Year 1 (11', 15')

So the talent allows instant-favorite status, whereas chemistry and brand of ball (organic winning) takes time to develop favorite status

Favorite status in Year 1 is simply the easiest path possible and obviously much harder than building favorite status over many years (organic)

[Johnny32]

Forming super-teams allows preseason favorite status in Year 1 (11', 15')

So the talent allows instant-favorite status, whereas chemistry and brand of ball (organic winning) takes time to develop favorite status

Favorite status in Year 1 is simply the easiest path possible and obviously much harder than building favorite status over many years (organic)

it clearly isn't the easiest path possible as i've proven with multiple examples. the easiest path would be watching as a fat man in a suit builds a contender around you. not everyone has that luxury.

[Phoenix]

Wiggins averaged 24 ppg in Minnesota (outside the dynasty system)

Pippen never did that even WITH the system... So Pippen doesn't match up to Wiggins.. Pippen was infact a 14 ppg dunker that couldn't score outside the triangle

For their Finals career, Pippen averages 19 on 42% compared to 18 on 45% for Wiggins... The only difference is that Pippen got to play with MJ from his rookie year, while Wiggins didn't play with Curry until later in his career... So Wiggins has a loser reputation from his Minnesota days, while Pippen was saved by landing next to Mike, instead of Houston, for example.

Oh so now we're talking about the regular season? I thought the conversation was about playoff production. Wiggins did that for one season BTW, so let's not act like he was routinely hitting that mark. Nor act like those numbers were on a team that was doing anything. Alot of players could average 24ppg on a 30 win team. Kevin Martin did that on 20 win teams. Means sweet fukk all.

So lets play your game a little longer. Show me the season, or series, where Wiggins dropped 21/8/8. Or we can go regular season, where's the season he dropped 22/9/6. You're on the clock.

Wiggins has one finals run. Pippen has 6. What one averaged in 6 games and the other in 30 plus games is irrelevant. Another dumb 3ball-ism, time for that list to be updated again.

[3ba11]

Oh so now we're talking about the regular season? I thought the conversation was about playoff production. Wiggins did that for one season BTW, so let's not act like he was routinely hitting tha markt. Nor act like those numbers were on a team that was doing anything. Alot of players could average 24ppg on a 30 win team. Kevin Martin did that on 20 win teams. Means sweet fukk all.

So lets play your game a little longer. Show me the season, or series, where Wiggins dropped 21/8/8. Or we can go regular season, where's the season he dropped 22/9/6. You're on the clock.


Wiggins averaged 24 outside a dynasty system and Pippen can't can't even average 15

There's no comparison - Wiggins was a prodigy #1 pick that would've been decent regardless of system, while Pippen was literally a towel-boy that needed to land alongside Jordan and a system

[Phoenix]

Wiggins averaged 24 outside a dynasty system and Pippen can't can't even average 15

There's no comparison - Wiggins was a prodigy #1 pick that would've been decent regardless of system, while Pippen was literally a towel-boy that needed to land alongside Jordan and a system

Wiggins averaged 24 on a team that won 30 games. Alot of people can score that on a shitty team. The 14ppg you referred to Scottie doing was when he was 33/34 post back surgery. And you know that. It's harder to produce stats on a team with expectations vs a team you can roll out of bed and play, which pretty much describes the Wolves squad you're referring to Wiggins dropping those numbers on.

You planning on showing me when 21/8/8 came from Wiggins, or you just gonna stick with your '404 not found' loop? Once again, you want Pippen to average elite first option scoring, rebound like a center, and assist like a PG. When Lebron did that against the Warriors, you called him a bum. The bulls already had a rebounder( Grant and Rodman) so 7 rebounds would be elite from a SF contexually. Same for averaging 7 assists in the triangle where individual assist numbers drop. You drop 'Pippen should have averaged this' without context, typical for you. You have literally no clue what you're talking about and rambling off a bunch of simpleton bullshit.

[ShawkFactory]

Wiggins averaged 24 outside a dynasty system and Pippen can't can't even average 15

There's no comparison - Wiggins was a prodigy #1 pick that would've been decent regardless of system, while Pippen was literally a towel-boy that needed to land alongside Jordan and a system

Damn what a shit show the Bulls front office was. Wasting a top 5 pick on a towel boy? Yikes.

[3ba11]

Damn what a shit show the Bulls front office was. Wasting a top 5 pick on a towel boy? Yikes.


They drafted a system player

Outside the dynasty system (triangle), Piippen was a 14 ppg dunker that couldn't score, while Wiggins was still a 20-24 ppg scorer

But the main difference between Wiggins and Pippen is that Wiggins developed a bad reputation in Minnesota - he would already be HOF like Pippen if he joined Curry from his rookie year and won chips like Pippen did with MJ

[red1]

https://i.postimg.cc/k5pXdN5h/Rivalry-Decade.jpg
https://c.tenor.com/S2G-QZk-Vz0AAAAM/michael-jordan-laughing.gif
https://c.tenor.com/S2G-QZk-Vz0AAAAM/michael-jordan-laughing.gif
https://c.tenor.com/S2G-QZk-Vz0AAAAM/michael-jordan-laughing.gif

[3ba11]

https://i.postimg.cc/k5pXdN5h/Rivalry-Decade.jpg
https://c.tenor.com/S2G-QZk-Vz0AAAAM/michael-jordan-laughing.gif
https://c.tenor.com/S2G-QZk-Vz0AAAAM/michael-jordan-laughing.gif
https://c.tenor.com/S2G-QZk-Vz0AAAAM/michael-jordan-laughing.gif


Magic and Shaq are superior to anyone that Lebron ever faced

And Jordan ragdolled both

Jordan also toppled a dynasty organically with worse defense and offensive help than the Bad Boys

Malone, Barkley, Ewing, Drexler - all were superior to 99.9% of the guys Lebron faced.. Only Curry, Kawhi and Duncan are ahead of them

[red1]

Magic and Shaq are superior to anyone that Lebron ever faced

And Jordan ragdolled both

Jordan also toppled a dynasty organically with worse defense and offensive help than the Bad Boys

Malone, Barkley, Ewing, Drexler - all were superior to 99.9% of the guys Lebron faced.. Only Curry, Kawhi and Duncan are ahead of them
lebron beat the team with the most wins in NBA history


https://c.tenor.com/S2G-QZk-Vz0AAAAM/michael-jordan-laughing.gif

pippen won 55 without baldan


https://c.tenor.com/S2G-QZk-Vz0AAAAM/michael-jordan-laughing.gif

[SouBeachTalents]

Magic and Shaq are superior to anyone that Lebron ever faced

And Jordan ragdolled both

Jordan also toppled a dynasty organically with worse defense and offensive help than the Bad Boys

Malone, Barkley, Ewing, Drexler - all were superior to 99.9% of the guys Lebron faced.. Only Curry, Kawhi and Duncan are ahead of them
:roll: Nobody in the world thinks Ewing & Drexler are better than Durant & Dirk.

[red1]

:roll: Nobody in the world thinks Ewing & Drexler are better than Durant & Dirk.

lebron beat the only 73 win team in NBA history - OP cant stand it :roll:

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/b3/75/c7/b375c7a409b2c1eaafcf56ef23a110b3--lebron-james-stats-nba-finals-.jpg

[RRR3]

Wait how are Magic and Shaq better than anyone LeBron ever faced when 3ball said Curry is top 5 and magic and Shaq aren’t top 10?

[1987_Lakers]

Wait how are Magic and Shaq better than anyone LeBron ever faced when 3ball said Curry is top 5 and magic and Shaq aren’t top 10?

:oldlol:

[red1]

Wait how are Magic and Shaq better than anyone LeBron ever faced when 3ball said Curry is top 5 and magic and Shaq aren’t top 10?

body-bagged him with his own recent words :roll:

[SouBeachTalents]

Wait how are Magic and Shaq better than anyone LeBron ever faced when 3ball said Curry is top 5 and magic and Shaq aren’t top 10?
https://mir-s3-cdn-cf.behance.net/project_modules/max_1200/b3f54e62430007.5a965f20d8cdb.gif

Let the scrambling commence :lol

[ShawkFactory]

They drafted a system player

Outside the dynasty system (triangle), Piippen was a 14 ppg dunker that couldn't score, while Wiggins was still a 20-24 ppg scorer

But the main difference between Wiggins and Pippen is that Wiggins developed a bad reputation in Minnesota - he would already be HOF like Pippen if he joined Curry from his rookie year and won chips like Pippen did with MJ

Lol no they drafted a raw Uber talent

[red1]

https://mir-s3-cdn-cf.behance.net/project_modules/max_1200/b3f54e62430007.5a965f20d8cdb.gif

Let the scrambling commence :lol

lebron beat curry when he was a back-to-back MVP coming off a ring, meanwhile baldan beat a declined magic in '91 and not with his peak lakers during their championship years, and beat kid shaq a good 5 years before his prime MDE diesel days



game over indeed. :oldlol:

[bullettooth]

OP has destroyed MJ's legacy without even knowing it.

TIL Jordan's legacy was dependant on an internet forum full of Bron nut huggers.

[Phoenix]

Wait how are Magic and Shaq better than anyone LeBron ever faced when 3ball said Curry is top 5 and magic and Shaq aren’t top 10?

https://c.tenor.com/U0m0P9u2TXgAAAAd/mortal-kombat-fatality.gif

[3ba11]

Lol no they drafted a raw Uber talent


the main difference between Wiggins and Pippen is that Wiggins developed a bad reputation in Minnesota - he would already be HOF like Pippen if he joined Curry from his rookie year and won chips like Pippen did with MJ

[3ba11]

Wait how are Magic and Shaq better than anyone LeBron ever faced when 3ball said Curry is top 5 and magic and Shaq aren’t top 10?


I'm using your rankings

YOU GUYS have.magic/shaq as top 10, so you're knocking me for beating you with your own logic...:hammerhead:... 3ball wins again

[RRR3]

I'm using your rankings

YOU GUYS have.magic/shaq as top 10, so you're knocking me for beating you with your own logic...:hammerhead:... 3ball wins again
We also have Curry top 10, and LeBron beat Duncan as well. Also that’s not what you were doing at all you’re just a horrid liar who forgot your own agenda. So by your own logic LeBron beat better players than MJ :eek:

[Axe]

I'm using your rankings

YOU GUYS have.magic/shaq as top 10, so you're knocking me for beating you with your own logic...:hammerhead:... 3ball wins again
Kobe also had pale competition bt

[3ba11]

We also have Curry top 10, and LeBron beat Duncan as well. Also that’s not what you were doing at all you’re just a horrid liar who forgot your own agenda. So by your own logic LeBron beat better players than MJ :eek:


Lol no you don't - you don't have Curry top 10

You laughed when I made Curry top 10 in November of 2021 (prophetic)

And Lebron has a lottery record against Duncan... And Dirk... And Curry... with super-teams!!!!

[ShawkFactory]

the main difference between Wiggins and Pippen is that Wiggins developed a bad reputation in Minnesota - he would already be HOF like Pippen if he joined Curry from his rookie year and won chips like Pippen did with MJ

That and their games are completely different

[Spurs m8]

Lol no you don't - you don't have Curry top 10

You laughed when I made Curry top 10 in November of 2021 (prophetic)

And Lebron has a lottery record against Duncan... And Dirk... And Curry... with super-teams!!!!

Yikes

[RRR3]

Lol no you don't - you don't have Curry top 10

You laughed when I made Curry top 10 in November of 2021 (prophetic)

And Lebron has a lottery record against Duncan... And Dirk... And Curry... with super-teams!!!!
Had him top 10 before he won a ring: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?504902-Assuming-a-4th-ring-which-one-of-these-players-will-Curry-knock-out-of-the-top-10


Whoops you lose again. Another brutal snivelly beat down.

[3ba11]

Had him top 10 before he won a ring: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?504902-Assuming-a-4th-ring-which-one-of-these-players-will-Curry-knock-out-of-the-top-10


Whoops you lose again. Another brutal snivelly beat down.


^^^ that was last month in June.... :yaohappy:

Bandwagoning at the last second right before a title

you're a real treat that keeps on giving... :oldlol:

Otoh, I had him top 5 in November of last year (2021) - I sensed that he would ascend to that Jordan level of consistent clutch dominance that Draymond talked about

[RRR3]

d-DUHHHHHH-uhhhhh-uhhhhh
:biggums:

[outofstomach]

I said "even when he was mediocre", as in Jordan carried them when Pippen wasn't good in certain match-ups or had health issues, and Jordan was always the best player in the series. Some of y'all try to act like it was like a Kobe/Shaq or Steph/KD or even a Magic/Kareem type situation when in reality Jordan was the clear-cut #1 and 3-peated 2x without another superstar offensive player. We don't have to shit on past legends to prop up the current ones.
pretty much this. i never understood why people attempted to prop up pippen as if he was a superstar level player being held back by jordan

pippen was just a very great complement to the bulls’ team and Jordan’s skillset in general, great player, but not a superstar

[Johnny32]

pretty much this. i never understood why people attempted to prop up pippen as if he was a superstar level player being held back by jordan

pippen was just a very great complement to the bulls’ team and Jordan’s skillset in general, great player, but not a superstar

window licker

[Shooter]

1/4??? :lol Um

Did no one tell OP about 1/10? :lol

[outofstomach]

window licker

you’ve been exposed on here for being unemployed, please don’t reply to me ever again :lol

[3ba11]

pretty much this. i never understood why people attempted to prop up pippen as if he was a superstar level player being held back by jordan

pippen was just a very great complement to the bulls’ team and Jordan’s skillset in general, great player, but not a superstar


It's always funny when people say that Pippen was a great compliment to Jordan

Pippen made Jordan carry the scoring load and averaged less assists than Wade, Kyrie, Westbrook or Rondo - so he provided less scoring and passing help than Lebron's sidekicks.

Pippen didn't reduce Jordan's defensive load because Jordan was top 7 DPOY from 88-98' - he finished higher in DPOY voting than Pippen nearly every year, so Pippen didn't reduce his defensive load.. In addition to Jordan playing better defense, Jordan averaged more assists for their Finals career, playoff career and regular season career..

Pippen is actually the only sidekick in history that made his #1 option defeat maximum defensive attention in every series (carry scoring load).

For example, Lebron gets a pass for the 07' Finals because all eyes were on him - he faced maximum defensive attention (had to carry scoring load) - that was Jordan's load in every series of his career

Like, Shaq would've been a more ideal sidekick - Jordan wouldn't face maximum defensive attention.. Similarly, AD would provide more help on both sides of the ball than Pippen.

How is it "ideal" for the #1 option to score far more per game than anyone ever did, while also leading the team in assists most runs and being top 7 DPOY every year? That's the goat load - Pippen's production was low, so Jordan had to carry the goat load

[1987_Lakers]

1-9

[Johnny32]

you’ve been exposed on here for being unemployed, please don’t reply to me ever again :lol

cool story, fatass.