How is Dr. J a 15-20 player ever while Artis Gilmore didn't even make top 75 list?

[1987_Lakers]

Hear me out, we constantly rank Julius Erving pretty high on lists, realgm has him #18 (2020), ISH has him at #16 (2021). ESPN had him at #15 in their 2020 list. If we were going to take his ABA accomplishments into consideration, then I would agree, that's a fair place to list him.

But how is it that Artis Gilmore who dominated the ABA didn't even make the top 50 list in 1996 & didn't make top 75 in 2022?

Gilmore
1x ABA MVP
5x All-ABA First Team
4x All-ABA Defensive First Team
1x ABA Champion (As the #1 guy)

And even if you disregard his ABA years, then is Julius Erving really a top 15-20 player ever if we only take into consideration what he did in the NBA?

1x NBA MVP
5x All-NBA First Team
1x NBA Champion (As the #2 guy)



Erving's stretch of dominance in the NBA was very short lived, he for sure didn't dominate like he did in the ABA when he first came into the NBA, he was missing out on All-NBA First Teams over guys like David Thompson & Marques Johnson in his first 3 years in the NBA. He really started to play at a superstar level in 1980 which lasted for 3 seasons, by '83 he was slowing down. You can't tell me with a straight face that Dr. J is a top 15-20 player ever if we are just going by what he did in the NBA, his longevity is way too short.

Now, if we include was Dr. J did in the ABA then yes, he for sure deserves to be in the top 15-20 mix and it seems like most consider what he did in the ABA, but for some reason it seems like fans and media completely ignore what Gilmore did in the ABA, a league in which he dominated in, didn't even make the top 75 this year. I think Realgm is the only place that has him ranked in the top 50. That "Thinking basketball" guy has Gilmore ranked #36 or something like that.

It just seems odd to me.

[FultzNationRISE]

Pretty simple, Lebron once listed Dr J in his top 5. That carries a LOT of weight.

Hence the familiar axiom: “Lebron’s opinions are like his jockstrap. They carry a LOT of weight.”

[warriorfan]

Hear me out, we constantly rank Julius Erving pretty high on lists, realgm has him #18 (2020), ISH has him at #16 (2021). ESPN had him at #15 in their 2020 list. If we were going to take his ABA accomplishments into consideration, then I would agree, that's a fair place to list him.

But how is it that Artis Gilmore who dominated the ABA didn't even make the top 50 list in 1996 & didn't make top 75 in 2022?

Gilmore
1x ABA MVP
5x All-ABA First Team
4x All-ABA Defensive First Team
1x ABA Champion (As the #1 guy)

And even if you disregard his ABA years, then is Julius Erving really a top 15-20 player ever if we only take into consideration what he did in the NBA?

1x NBA MVP
5x All-NBA First Team
1x NBA Champion (As the #2 guy)



Erving's stretch of dominance in the NBA was very short lived, he for sure didn't dominate like he did in the ABA when he first came into the NBA, he was missing out on All-NBA First Teams over guys like David Thompson & Marques Johnson in his first 3 years in the NBA. He really started to play at a superstar level in 1980 which lasted for 3 seasons, by '83 he was slowing down. You can't tell me with a straight face that Dr. J is a top 15-20 player ever if we are just going by what he did in the NBA, his longevity is way too short.

Now, if we include was Dr. J did in the ABA then yes, he for sure deserves to be in the top 15-20 mix and it seems like most consider what he did in the ABA, but for some reason it seems like fans and media completely ignore what Gilmore did in the ABA, a league in which he dominated in, didn't even make the top 75 this year. I think Realgm is the only place that has him ranked in the top 50. That "Thinking basketball" guy has Gilmore ranked #36 or something like that.

It just seems odd to me.

People aren’t consistent with accounting for ABA years and a bunch of low iq’s like to completely disregard them.

[red1]

most of the legends are fans of Dr. J


they're fans of his acrobatic finishing around the rim


as much as they are fans of the explosive dunks



goes to show that abnormally large hands (an advantage that I dont have) is one of the biggest advantages that many legends and elite NBA players have in common (lebron, kawhi, pippen, mj, dr. J)

[red1]

I can barely finish with my left hand and had to train it - if you have large hands you have a HUGE advantage in basketball, period.


you dont even need skill to finish in traffic if you can finger-roll the ball- which I can only do with my right hand

[2much_knowledge]

Missing a couple of things here.

For a guy that got to the Nba late

1mvp
1 ring
4 finals
2 allstar mvps
5 all nba first team

Thats a nice resume and im not even taking stats into consideration

Remember when he got to the Nba, the gm or coach asked him to tone down his offensive game in 1976

He just didnt have a team as loaded to compete with Magic and Bird.

As soon as he did, swept the lakers

[iamgine]

Well, we have to look to context. Dr J dominated the ABA, then he sort of dominated the NBA.

Artis Gilmore not only didn't dominate the ABA even close to Dr J level of domination, he completely dropped off in the NBA.

[John8204]

How is Dr. J a 15-20 player ever while Artis Gilmore didn't even make top 75 list?

Rick Barry
Billy Cunningham
Julius Erving
George Gervin
Moses Malone

So that's the top 50 list...Artis Gilmore and Dan Issel could have made the list...but the NBA decided to put 4 champions and Gervin who was a 9 time All-star and 4 time scoring champ on the list.

If you were ranking those five today I think you would go....1. Moses Malone (top 15), Dr. J (top 20), Gervin (top 30), Rick Barry (top 50), Billy Cunnigham (out of the top 75)

The NBA voters made a choice at the 50 that they didn't do for the top 75 and that was cutting players off the list. 5-10 players likely should have been culled from the 50 list and because they weren't a bunch of the fringe players got left out. What we saw with both the 75 and 50 list is the biggest cuts came with guys that retired in that 10 year span before the lists were made.

Top 50 (Dominiqe, McAdoo, English, Gilmore, Moncrief)
Top 75 (Dikembe, Mcgrady, Carter, Webber, Parker)

Now why Dr. J is ranked highly and Gilmore isn't is also based on position.

Lebron, Bird, Erving, Baylor, Durant - Dr J is clearly a top five player in his position

Artis Gilmore is not in the top five

Wilt, KAJ, Bill, Mikan, Moses

and he's not in the top ten

Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Thurmond, Reed

and theirs an argument that he's not top fifteen

Walton, Ewing, Davis, Cowens, Unseld

[L.Kizzle]

Aritst rarely made the playoffs in his NBA career, Doc made the Finals his first NBA season and ans 3 more to boot (NBA Champ his last Finals appereance.)

Also, Artist played with 2 Hall of Famers In the ABA (Dan Issel being one of them.) I dare yall to name a teammate of Doc's in those New York Nets title teams?

Doc was the ABA and also one of the main faces of the NBA.

[warriorfan]

Aritst rarely made the playoffs in his NBA career, Doc made the Finals his first NBA season and ans 3 more to boot (NBA Champ his last Finals appereance.)

Also, Artist played with 2 Hall of Famers In the ABA (Dan Issel being one of them.) I dare yall to name a teammate of Doc's in those New York Nets title teams?

Doc was the ABA and also one of the main faces of the NBA.

Dr J’s 1976 ABA Finals is one of the greatest and most dominant Finals performances of all time. He did it vs possibly the best defender in the world at the time in Bobby Jones. The very next year during the merger the Nuggets had the number 1 ranked defense in the entire league. So it wasn’t a lack of competition thing. Dr J faced the best defensive team in both leagues and the best wing defender and completely dominated them single handedly. Dr J pre injuries at his peak was one of the most dominant players ever.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1976-aba-finals-nets-vs-nuggets.html (1976 ABA Finals Stats)
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DEN/1977.html (1977 nuggets stats in post merger ABA/NBA with the number one ranked defense

[Duderonomy]

Julius was "thee" superstar of the 70's. Even over Kareem and Rick Barry. He was Vince Carter with more playoff success.

[1987_Lakers]

Aritst rarely made the playoffs in his NBA career, Doc made the Finals his first NBA season and ans 3 more to boot (NBA Champ his last Finals appereance.)

Also, Artist played with 2 Hall of Famers In the ABA (Dan Issel being one of them.) I dare yall to name a teammate of Doc's in those New York Nets title teams?

Doc was the ABA and also one of the main faces of the NBA.

If we were just looking at his NBA career, then I would agree, Gilmore is not top 75, but are you going to take him out top 75 if we include his ABA years? You say he had a stacked ABA roster, but that same roster went from 44-40 without Gilmore to 68-16 with him in 1972, defense was ranked 2nd worse in 1971 to #1 in 1972 with rookie Gilmore.

Dr. J obviously had a better NBA career, but that is not the point of this thread, people in general usually take into account what Dr. J accomplished in the ABA when they rank him, but at the same time completely ignore what Gilmore did in the ABA.

[L.Kizzle]

If we were just looking at his NBA career, then I would agree, Gilmore is not top 75, but are you going to take him out top 75 if we include his ABA years? You say he had a stacked ABA roster, but that same roster went from 44-40 without Gilmore to 68-16 with him in 1972, defense was ranked 2nd worse in 1971 to #1 in 1972 with rookie Gilmore.

Dr. J obviously had a better NBA career, but that is not the point of this thread, people in general usually take into account what Dr. J accomplished in the ABA when they rank him, but at the same time completely ignore what Gilmore did in the ABA.
Is Gilmores peak evan a top 5 ABA peak tho?
You have Dr J, Spencer Haywood, George McGinnis. Even Charlie Scott was putting up some freaky numbers in the ABA. Career wise, sure as some of those guys played only a season or two in the ABA. But does he have a better peak than ABA Rick Barry or Connie Hawkins?

[1987_Lakers]

Is Gilmores peak evan a top 5 ABA peak tho?
You have Dr J, Spencer Haywood, George McGinnis. Even Charlie Scott was putting up some freaky numbers in the ABA. Career wise, sure as some of those guys played only a season or two in the ABA. But does he have a better peak than ABA Rick Barry or Connie Hawkins?

Don't know about peak, but many consider Gilmore the 2nd best ABA player ever behind Dr. J.

He was such a defensive monster in that league that I'm sure his peak was above Haywood & McGinnis.

[L.Kizzle]

Don't know about peak, but many consider Gilmore the 2nd best ABA player ever behind Dr. J.

He was such a defensive monster in that league that I'm sure his peak was above Haywood & McGinnis.
Well, he gets mentioned more than Mel Daniel's I can say that.

Spencer H one ABA season, 30/20
Charlie Scott did 35/5/5 one season.
Rick Barry entire ABA career is 30/8/4 over four seasons.

[WhiteKyrie]

Dr J is influential but 100% one of the more overrated all time greats from an actual basketball perspective. He did his dominance in the free flowing and no defense playing ABA. I don’t think he’s a better player than Baylor, West, Oscar, Drexler, Harden, Carter, McGrady, Iverson, Richmond, S. Smith, Reggie, B. Roy, Westbrick and probably some more.

[warriorfan]

Dr J is influential but 100% one of the more overrated all time greats from an actual basketball perspective. He did his dominance in the free flowing and no defense playing ABA. I don’t think he’s a better player than Baylor, West, Oscar, Drexler, Harden, Carter, McGrady, Iverson, Richmond, S. Smith, Reggie, B. Roy, Westbrick and probably some more.


Dr J’s 1976 ABA Finals is one of the greatest and most dominant Finals performances of all time. He did it vs possibly the best defender in the world at the time in Bobby Jones. The very next year during the merger the Nuggets had the number 1 ranked defense in the entire league. So it wasn’t a lack of competition thing. Dr J faced the best defensive team in both leagues and the best wing defender and completely dominated them single handedly. Dr J pre injuries at his peak was one of the most dominant players ever.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/1976-aba-finals-nets-vs-nuggets.html (1976 ABA Finals Stats)
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DEN/1977.html (1977 nuggets stats in post merger ABA/NBA with the number one ranked defense


Check out that post.

[ShawkFactory]

Dr J is influential but 100% one of the more overrated all time greats from an actual basketball perspective. He did his dominance in the free flowing and no defense playing ABA. I don’t think he’s a better player than Baylor, West, Oscar, Drexler, Harden, Carter, McGrady, Iverson, Richmond, S. Smith, Reggie, B. Roy, Westbrick and probably some more.

Lol wut.

You just fvcking listed Brandon Roy :lol

[HoopsNY]

Dr J is influential but 100% one of the more overrated all time greats from an actual basketball perspective. He did his dominance in the free flowing and no defense playing ABA. I don’t think he’s a better player than Baylor, West, Oscar, Drexler, Harden, Carter, McGrady, Iverson, Richmond, S. Smith, Reggie, B. Roy, Westbrick and probably some more.

That's a bit of a stretch don't you think? Dr. J took the Sixers to the ECF in his first year, then again in 1981. Then went to the finals in 1980, 1982, and 1983. Then he took them back to the ECF in 1985. So that's 3x ECF and 3 NBA finals, with 1 title.

His playoff numbers during that stretch was 23/7/4/2/2 on 49%. That's including his years from ages 32-34 when guys generally declined.

Otherwise, in the NBA (in addition to 3x ECF appearances and 3 NBA finals appearances with 1 title):

11x All-Star
1980 MVP
7x All-NBA
2x ASG MVP

6 times Dr. J was top 5 in MVP voting in the NBA, not to mention, he was top 5 in scoring 1981, 1982, and 1983. From 1980-84, he was top 5 in PER every year. He was top 5 six times in WS/48 during the same stretch. And from '77-'85 he was top 10 in BPM 8x.

I mean, I dunno what else you can really expect from someone who was clearly elite with one heck of a resume during his tenure in the NBA. Sure, his game declined significantly from 1985-87, but he was ages 34-36 by then. Look at Dr. J from '77-'84 and he has one heck of a resume.

[HoopsNY]

Lol wut.

You just fvcking listed Brandon Roy :lol

Yea, that's pretty odd. If Dr. J can't get recognition in an era that had Moses, Kareem, Bird, Magic, Gervin, etc, then I'm not sure who is really worthy of recognition.