MJ is a better scorer than Curry and it isn’t particularly close

[2ball]

It’s funny I was giving Curry the benefit of the doubt for hitting 3’s while facing maximum defensive attention but when you look at the space it’s not that difficult. MJ won the scoring title just about every year. MJ averaged 40ppg in 5 different playoff series and has the highest finals ppg of all time.

[Stephonit]

It’s funny I was giving Curry the benefit of the doubt for hitting 3’s while facing maximum defensive attention but when you look at the space it’s not that difficult. MJ won the scoring title just about every year. MJ averaged 40ppg in 5 different playoff series and has the highest finals ppg of all time.

Comparing Curry to MJ as a scorer. Hmm. At least we're getting into reasonable comparisons.

[3ba11]

Curry reached the MJ level this season

That's the level required to win with secondary producers at sidekick that require the 1st option to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load in Finals).

The Celtics were a freight train that everyone was scared of and Curry dominated them like MJ would have - he hit big momentum shots THROUGHOUT the game - that's what it takes to win with a secondary producer sidekick like Wiggins or Pippen that won't get anywhere near the 1st option scoring-wise

Otoh , it's obviously easier to win with all-time scorers and elite 1st options at sidekick like Wade, Kyrie or AD that will nearly match the 1st option in Finals PPG (less defensive attention)

[Full Court]

Curry's the greatest shooter of all time.

Jordan was a better scorer. Not only what OP wrote, but MJ had 10 scoring titles. Curry has what, 2? (which is still double what Lebron has).

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

Curry reached the MJ level this season

That's the level required to win with secondary producers at sidekick that require the 1st option to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load in Finals).

The Celtics were a freight train that everyone was scared of and Curry dominated them like MJ would have - he hit big momentum shots THROUGHOUT the game - that's what it takes to win with a secondary producer sidekick like Wiggins or Pippen that won't get anywhere near the 1st option scoring-wise

Otoh , it's obviously easier to win with all-time scorers and elite 1st options at sidekick like Wade, Kyrie or AD that will nearly match the 1st option in Finals PPG (less defensive attention)

Curry has yet to win a championship while leading in scoring and making the defensive 1st team which will never happen.

[Stephonit]

Curry has yet to win a championship while leading in scoring and making the defensive 1st team which will never happen.

Curry has been on more championship teams with a league-leading defensive rating than Michael Jordan.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

Curry has been on more championship teams with a league-leading defensive rating than Michael Jordan.

0 defensive selections 0 DPOYs

[Axe]

Curry has been on more championship teams with a league-leading defensive rating than Michael Jordan.
He's a gerbil but can't deny that he's had a much better competition than 90s cavemen in the past.

[Stephonit]

0 defensive selections 0 DPOYs

Performance based data vs. popular opinion.

[RRR3]

Performance based data vs. popular opinion.
Are you seriously suggesting Curry is a better defender than Michael Jordan? Shut the **** up troll

[Stephonit]

Are you seriously suggesting Curry is a better defender than Michael Jordan? Shut the **** up troll

I'm suggesting Curry has a dramatic impact on the kind of defensive team a franchise can field.

[RRR3]

D-DUHHHHHH-UHHHHH-UHHHH
:biggums:

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

I'm suggesting Curry has a dramatic impact on the kind of defensive team a franchise can field.

Nah man. I'm a fan of Steph's, but that is crazy talk.

Defense and 'dramatic impact' are not synonymous with Curry. :lol

If you narrowed it down to total impact then I would agree. He's gotten much better defensively compared to 2016 or so. But...Steph's offensive impact still outweighs his defensive one. By a large fukkin margin.

[StrongLurk]

Oh wow, well this thread proves I wasted my time trying to talk to Stephonit in my thread earlier today. His posts in this thread are ThreeBall level retarded and stanned.

What the **** is wrong with posters on ISH?

[Stephonit]

Oh wow, well this thread proves I wasted my time trying to talk to Stephonit in my thread earlier today. His posts in this thread are ThreeBall level retarded and stanned.

What the **** is wrong with posters on ISH?

Did you see Steph winning this year? I saw it a mile away. 3Ball to his credit saw it too a little belatedly but enough to look somewhat prescient. If the rest of you want to remain in the dark that's your choice.

[RRR3]

Oh wow, well this thread proves I wasted my time trying to talk to Stephonit in my thread earlier today. His posts in this thread are ThreeBall level retarded and stanned.

What the **** is wrong with posters on ISH?
He’s been gargling Curry’s semen for years, it’s all he does. No one takes him seriously.

[RRR3]

Did you see Steph winning this year? I saw it a mile away. 3Ball to his credit saw it too a little belatedly but enough to look somewhat prescient. If the rest of you want to remain in the dark that's your choice.
You predicted Steph to win last year too and that didn’t go very well :lol

You’re bound to be right eventually if you predict a great player with a good supporting cast will win every single year.

[Stephonit]

You predicted Steph to win last year too and that didn’t go very well :lol

You’re bound to be right eventually if you predict a great player with a good supporting cast will win every single year.

Did I predict him to win the year before? I don't think so. All I knew is that he would show greatness—and he did. He had that ridiculous run of games towards the end of the season where only Jordan and Kobe could match him as scorers at that age. I cannot off the top of my head think of a player bringing a last placed team to a better record the following year without another star having joined him.

[John8204]

MJ and Curry are two different types of shooters...MJ couldn't shoot the way Curry shoots which is why Paxson and Kerr helped win titles for the Bulls. Curry on the other hand couldn't take over a game and get those great jump shots and contested baskets in the paint. MJ is to Curry what Wilt is to MJ

[Phoenix]

I'm suggesting Curry has a dramatic impact on the kind of defensive team a franchise can field.


To be fair, Steph has become a better defender than he's given credit for. He's not a stopper, but he does put effort in that end and isn't a liability. That said, it's crazy to think that the Warriors defense over the years wasn't and hasn't largely been anchored by Draymond, with a healthy Klay, Iguodola, KD in 17 and 18, and now Wiggins. Steph himself does not dictate the kind of defense a team plays, but I'm interested to see exactly how you would qualify that statement beyond a single sentence.

[hold this L]

To be fair, Steph has become a better defender than he's given credit for. He's not a stopper, but he does put effort in that end and isn't a liability. That said, it's crazy to think that the Warriors defense over the years wasn't and hasn't largely been anchored by Draymond, with a healthy Klay, Iguodola, KD in 17 and 18, and now Wiggins. Steph himself does not dictate the kind of defense a team plays, but I'm interested to see exactly how you would qualify that statement beyond a single sentence.
KD is an elite on ball but mediocre off ball defender. He's a grossly overrated defender. Warriors defRTG throughout the seasons:

3rd - 2014
1st - 2015
6th - 2016
2nd - 2017
11th - 2018
11th - 2019
26th - 2020
5th - 2021
2nd - 2022

[Phoenix]

KD is an elite on ball but mediocre off ball defender. He's a grossly overrated defender. Warriors defRTG throughout the seasons:

3rd - 2014
1st - 2015
6th - 2016
2nd - 2017
11th - 2018
11th - 2019
26th - 2020
5th - 2021
2nd - 2022

Was also pretty good as a shotblocker. I probably shouildn't use the word 'anchor' with respects to KD, but main point I'm saying is those guys through the years were more responsible for the Warriors defense than Steph was. Which isn't a knock, but I don't understand the comment I replied to that Steph has a dramatic impact on the kind of D a team can play( he didn't explain what he meant beyond that singular statement).

[RRR3]

KD is an elite on ball but mediocre off ball defender. He's a grossly overrated defender. Warriors defRTG throughout the seasons:

3rd - 2014
1st - 2015
6th - 2016
2nd - 2017
11th - 2018
11th - 2019
26th - 2020
5th - 2021
2nd - 2022
Call out steppedonshit’s nonsense if you want us to think you’re objective.

[Shooter]

MJ and Curry are two different types of shooters...MJ couldn't shoot the way Curry shoots which is why Paxson and Kerr helped win titles for the Bulls. Curry on the other hand couldn't take over a game and get those great jump shots and contested baskets in the paint. MJ is to Curry what Wilt is to MJ

+1

Do I need to bump the Giannis vs MJ shooting thread and remind people :lol

[hold this L]

Call out steppedonshit’s nonsense if you want us to think you’re objective.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e5/4d/d7/e54dd7d784acd034d078ab61feeb0a36.gif

[RRR3]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e5/4d/d7/e54dd7d784acd034d078ab61feeb0a36.gif
Yep thought so.

[Stephonit]

To be fair, Steph has become a better defender than he's given credit for. He's not a stopper, but he does put effort in that end and isn't a liability. That said, it's crazy to think that the Warriors defense over the years wasn't and hasn't largely been anchored by Draymond, with a healthy Klay, Iguodola, KD in 17 and 18, and now Wiggins. Steph himself does not dictate the kind of defense a team plays, but I'm interested to see exactly how you would qualify that statement beyond a single sentence.

Just refer to that defensive rating list and notice the jump between 2020 and 2021. From 26th to 5th. What's the most notable player addition between the two? Curry.

[Stephonit]

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e5/4d/d7/e54dd7d784acd034d078ab61feeb0a36.gif

Did you pick the Warriors to win this year?

I'm guessing not.

Steph has to put up with these Doubting Thomases as his fans. If they only knew what they were really in the presence of.

[Phoenix]

Just refer to that defensive rating list and notice the jump between 2020 and 2021. From 26th to 5th. What's the most notable player addition between the two? Curry.

The most notable player 'additions' are 71 games from Wiggins and Draymond playing 3/4 of the year as opposed to half in 2020. Both had higher DWS, Draymond had a clear team lead in DBPM and was first team All-D. Steph carried the team offensively( obviously), but was not the biggest reason for their jump in defense last year FFS. Like, I said earlier that I think Steph is better on defense than given credit for( especially compared to 5 years ago), but your sentiment is rooted in sheer fanboyism nonsense.

[SouBeachTalents]

The most notable player 'additions' are 71 games from Wiggins and Draymond playing 3/4 of the year as opposed to half in 2020. Both had higher DWS, Draymond had a clear team lead in DBPM and was first team All-D. Steph carried the team offensively( obviously), but was not the biggest reason for their jump in defense last year FFS. Like, I said earlier that I think Steph is better on defense than given credit for( especially compared to 5 years ago), but your sentiment is rooted in sheer fanboyism nonsense.
Bro, why are you trying to argue with someone who's claiming that Curry's the reason for the Warriors elite defense :lol He's clearly in the 3ball/HBK class of nonsensical stans.

[Stephonit]

The most notable player 'additions' are 71 games from Wiggins and Draymond playing 3/4 of the year as opposed to half in 2020. Both had higher DWS, Draymond had a clear team lead in DBPM and was first team All-D. Steph carried the team offensively( obviously), but was not the biggest reason for their jump in defense last year FFS. Like, I said earlier that I think Steph is better on defense than given credit for( especially compared to 5 years ago), but your sentiment is rooted in sheer fanboyism nonsense.

Draymond's defense was pointless the previous year without Steph. Wiggins' defense was largely pointless on the Timberwolves without Steph. Steph has incredible influence on the playability of the defensive stalwarts on his teams. My conclusions are based on the actual record of defense leading to wins not arbitrary notions of what good defense is.

[Phoenix]

Draymond's defense was pointless the previous year without Steph. Wiggins' defense was largely pointless on the Timberwolves without Steph. Steph has incredible influence on the playability of the defensive stalwarts on his teams. My conclusions are based on the actual record of defense leading to wins not arbitrary notions of what good defense is.

Anyone's defense is pointless within the context of wins and losses depending on team personnel. Draymond Green isn't going to be of much use in terms of his defensive impact if Steph isn't out there, but that's because Stephs offense is paramount to the success of the team in combination with what Draymond does defensively. But if you removed Draymond off the team and just left Steph on an island surrounded by mediocre players, they wouldn't make the playoffs. We have last year as evidence of that and that was with Draymond on the floor. So it's a reasonable extrapolation that taking Draymond off last year's team would have resulted in even less wins.

There's nothing objective about your perspective. Just an overly simpliistic 'Steph wasn't there one year, and was there the next, so there's your answer'. No, the reality is the Warriors system in general is symbiotic., especially the long-standing big 3. Steph feeds off Draymond who feeds off Klay who feeds off Steph. Has nothing to do with Steph in particularly having the biggest influence on how the team plays defensively. Outright bullshit.

[TheGoatest]

As long as jordon has his precious, shortened 3 point line from 1994-97. Behind the ordinary 3pt line, jordon is as "deadly" as Westbrick. :oldlol:

[Stephonit]

Anyone's defense is pointless within the context of wins and losses depending on team personnel. Draymond Green isn't going to be of much use in terms of his defensive impact if Steph isn't out there, but that's because Stephs offense is paramount to the success of the team in combination with what Draymond does defensively. But if you removed Draymond off the team and just left Steph on an island surrounded by mediocre players, they wouldn't make the playoffs. We have last year as evidence of that and that was with Draymond on the floor. So it's a reasonable extrapolation that taking Draymond off last year's team would have resulted in even less wins.

There's nothing objective about your perspective. Just an overly simpliistic 'Steph wasn't there one year, and was there the next, so there's your answer'. No, the reality is the Warriors system in general is symbiotic., especially the long-standing big 3. Steph feeds off Draymond who feeds off Klay who feeds off Steph. Has nothing to do with Steph in particularly having the biggest influence on how the team plays defensively. Outright bullshit.

Ignoring the interplay between offense and defense is what is simplistic. Yet that's how the topic is almost universally discussed. Fact is without Steph, Draymond was leading a team with the 26th ranked defensive rating. Fact is when Wiggins was on the Timberwolves that team never had a defensive rating ranked higher than 21st despite hiring a coach in Thibodeau known for defense. Pair them with Steph and they miraculously have a top 5 defense. Just because you cannot explain it does not change the fact that is what happened. The outright BS comes in when you dismiss it out of hand thinking you know what is going on when you really don't.

[Full Court]

As long as jordon has his precious, shortened 3 point line from 1994-97. Behind the ordinary 3pt line, jordon is as "deadly" as Westbrick. :oldlol:

^This guy is seriously dumb. Trying to convince people that Jordan, who barely ever even attempted 3-pointers, had his success dependent on a shortened 3-point-line.

Talk about some desperate damage control. But I guess that's what you have to resort to when your hero leads a super team to the lottery. :lol

[Big164]

Stephs Offense is his Defense.

When the opposing team is doubling and chasing Steph all over the court for 35 minutes and trying to fight through screens its a very exhausting experience. Its so fatiguing and demoralizing, the opposing team is completely drained when its time to put up shots of their own. And the shots they do put up will be desperation 3s to compete with Currys 3s.

[Charlie Sheen]

Jordan had that infamous shrug game against the Blazers where they just felt helpless. Steph makes defenders feel like that on the regular. They're both scorching any team I root for, but it feels like I at least had a slim chance against Jordan.

[Phoenix]

Ignoring the interplay between offense and defense is what is simplistic. Yet that's how the topic is almost universally discussed. Fact is without Steph, Draymond was leading a team with the 26th ranked defensive rating. Fact is when Wiggins was on the Timberwolves that team never had a defensive rating ranked higher than 21st despite hiring a coach in Thibodeau known for defense. Pair them with Steph and they miraculously have a top 5 defense. Just because you cannot explain it does not change the fact that is what happened. The outright BS comes in when you dismiss it out of hand thinking you know what is going on when you really don't.

How the hell am I ignoring the interplay between offense and defense? The first paragraph speaks precisely to this:

Anyone's defense is pointless within the context of wins and losses depending on team personnel. Draymond Green isn't going to be of much use in terms of his defensive impact if Steph isn't out there, but that's because Stephs offense is paramount to the success of the team in combination with what Draymond does defensively. But if you removed Draymond off the team and just left Steph on an island surrounded by mediocre players, they wouldn't make the playoffs. We have last year as evidence of that and that was with Draymond on the floor. So it's a reasonable extrapolation that taking Draymond off last year's team would have resulted in even less wins.

What the hell does that mean, if not speaking to offense/defense interplay?! The poster above, Big164, actually had some kind of 'this is what is happening' explanation for how Stephs offense impacts the defense in a way that they're too worn out on the other end, which in turn makes the opponent easier to defend. That's an explanation, not your 'well Steph wasn't there one year but was the next'. That says absolutely nothing. Hell you're literally speaking in terms of miracles. You haven't said anything that suggest you have any more of a clue what or how Steph does the thing you say he does.

[Phoenix]

Bro, why are you trying to argue with someone who's claiming that Curry's the reason for the Warriors elite defense :lol He's clearly in the 3ball/HBK class of nonsensical stans.

Yeah I've never spoken to that poster often but I literally said 'oh, this is the 3ball of Curry stans' yesterday.

[sdot_thadon]

Curry's the greatest shooter of all time.

Jordan was a better scorer. Not only what OP wrote, but MJ had 10 scoring titles. Curry has what, 2? (which is still double what Lebron has).

And this may be the most comical thing about discussing Mj in 2022. Scoring titles doe! Mj had no help scoring! Well no shit if he shot enough times to win the scoring title each year there weren't many shots to go around for the rest of the team. Meanwhile a guy like Lebron was more able to accommodate high scoring teammates because, newsflash: he let them shoot. Honestly this is an even worse take than RANGZ DOE!! which actually impacted the game in a negative way.

[Stephonit]

Yeah I've never spoken to that poster often but I literally said 'oh, this is the 3ball of Curry stans' yesterday.

You ask for explanation and when one is given you suggest I'm simply making things up due to my admiration of said player. You don't get it you don't get it but you'd learn more from the following comment than you would from the conventional wisdom surrounding defense:

"Look at Curry, so inspirational!"

[Phoenix]

You ask for explanation and when one is given you suggest I'm simply making things up due to my admiration of said player. You don't get it you don't get it but you'd learn more from the following comment than you would from the conventional wisdom surrounding defense:

"Look at Curry, so inspirational!"

Yes, I asked for an explanation because your original comment was 'Steph has dramatic impact on a franchises ability to play defense'. Which means sweek fukk all.

Big164 said a plausible theory for Steph wearing out the D in a way that compromises their offense( thus making them easier to defend). There probably is something to that, but that speaks to Stephs trandescent offensive gravity and skillset less than any specific thing he brings defensively, which earlier posts inferred in the absence of more specifics.

Your intital retort when asked for clarity was 'Steph wasn't there one year, the next he was'. A causality without actually going to any depth as to WHAT Steph does specifically to justify your original claim.

[Stephonit]

Yes, I asked for an explanation because your original comment was 'Steph has dramatic impact on a franchises ability to play defense'. Which means sweek fukk all.

Big164 said a plausible theory for Steph wearing out the D in a way that compromises their offense( thus making them easier to defend). There probably is something to that, but that speaks to Stephs trandescent offensive gravity and skillset less than any specific thing he brings defensively, which earlier posts inferred in the absence of more specifics.

Your intital retort when asked for clarity was 'Steph wasn't there one year, the next he was'. A causality without actually going to any depth as to WHAT Steph does specifically to justify your original claim.

It's better to show that he actually has an effect to begin with so that's where we started. How he does it one can speculate on. Is it roster construction? Is it morale boost? Is it endurance and opponent exhaustion? Is it superior court coverage and control of tempo? A mix of the preceding and then some? But the effect is discernible even if everybody wants to ignore it.

[Phoenix]

It's better to show that he actually has an effect to begin with so that's where we started. How he does it one can speculate on. Is it roster construction? Is it morale boost? Is it endurance and opponent exhaustion? Is it superior court coverage and control of tempo? A mix of the preceding and then some? But the effect is discernible even if everybody wants to ignore it.

Well first nobody was ignoring it. I asked you to explain it. At no point did I actually say I disagreed with the notion of it, and I was hoping for a more detailed reply beyond 'he wasn't there one year, and was there the next'. So basically, you have the basic idea that 'Steph greatly impacts a teams ability to play defense', and when asked to qualify that, simply could have said 'I don't know specifically, he just does', which all of your 'is it this, is it that' seems to suggest. And then I wouldn't have bothered with the last 3-4 posts trying to actually get a more concise answer. I was looking more for a dialogue, not an argument.

[Stephonit]

Well first nobody was ignoring it. I asked you to explain it. At no point did I actually say I disagreed with the notion of it, and I was hoping for a more detailed reply beyond 'he wasn't there one year, and was there the next'. So basically, you have the basic idea that 'Steph greatly impacts a teams ability to play defense', and when asked to qualify that, simply could have said 'I don't know specifically, he just does', which all of your 'is it this, is it that' seems to suggest. And then I wouldn't have bothered with the last 3-4 posts trying to actually get a more concise answer. I was looking more for a dialogue, not an argument.

Is this an argument? I don't know why you perceive the need for retorts. I don't know what more concise answer you are looking for. One based on a defensive metric? There are no good defensive metrics publicly available. That's why when talking about defense it's generally feelings towards players that dominate the discussion. The entire way the game is split into a dichotomy of offense and defense is in itself simplistic. In an analogy to warfare where does logistics fit in? But it is in all the in-between things that do not fit the common paradigms that Curry excels.

[RRR3]

Talking like you swallowed a thesaurus does not make you intelligent.

[Phoenix]

Is this an argument? I don't know why you perceive the need for retorts. I don't know what more concise answer you are looking for. One based on a defensive metric? There are no good defensive metrics publicly available. That's why when talking about defense it's generally feelings towards players that dominate the discussion. The entire way the game is split into a dichotomy of offense and defense is in itself simplistic. In an analogy to warfare where does logistics fit in? But it is in all the in-between things that do not fit the common paradigms that Curry excels.

You made a statement that didn't have any kind of context surrounding it. I asked you to clarifty what you meant. If you don't want people to challenge comments you make, especially when they're not initially backed up by anything or even if they are, an internet message board is probably the wrong hangout spot for you.

[ImKobe]

Jordan had that infamous shrug game against the Blazers where they just felt helpless. Steph makes defenders feel like that on the regular. They're both scorching any team I root for, but it feels like I at least had a slim chance against Jordan.

Idk, I think Jordan was more consistent at putting up an efficient 30-40 than Steph and it sure as hell feels helpless watching prime MJ footage when they would pack the paint and he'd still find ways to beat the double and finish over multiple defenders damn near every time. Jordan's consistency in the POs is unmatched.

[Stephonit]

You made a statement that didn't have any kind of context surrounding it. I asked you to clarifty what you meant. If you don't want people to challenge comments you make, especially when they're not initially backed up by anything or even if they are, an internet message board is probably the wrong hangout spot for you.

If you are challenging people then it seems you are looking more for an argument not a dialogue.

[Phoenix]

If you are challenging people then it seems you are looking more for an argument not a dialogue.

That's your call however you choose to interpret a challenge. End of the day, you made a statement that wasn't initially backed by anything, and asked to clarify it. Not really anything more complicated than that.