A Case for Kobe over LeBron...

[HoopsNY]

I think LeBron > Kobe both for a career and as an individual player, but one thing that is interesting is if you isolate the teams they both faced from 2008-12 in the playoffs.

2008

Kobe vs. BOS: 26/5/5/3 on 41/32/80
LeBron vs. BOS: 27/6/8/2 on 35/23/76

2009

Kobe vs. ORL: 32/6/7/1 on 43/36/81
LeBron vs. ORL: 39/8/8/1 on 48/30/75

2010

Kobe vs. BOS: 29/8/4/2 41/32/88
LeBron vs. BOS: 29/9/7/2 on 45/27/74

2011

Kobe vs. DAL: 23/3/3/2 on 46/23/80
LeBron vs. DAL: 18/7/7/2 on 48/32/60

2012

Kobe vs. OKC: 31/5/4/2 on 43/11/86
LeBron vs. OKC: 29/10/7/2 47/19/83

Both players were in their peaks with Kobe experiencing a slight decline after 2010. LeBron's series against Orlando is the best, though Stan Van Gundy admitted to leaving LeBron and worrying more about his cast's shooting. I still think LeBron has the longevity and career argument, but as individual players, they seem to be a lot closer than even I was willing to admit.

I still give LeBron the edge when looking at it, but it's not as drastic as I originally believed, especially when you consider the formation of the super-team in 2011 and 2012. Given Kobe's success during that time though, it does beg to ask the question.

[SouBeachTalents]

Kobe was better in '08, LeBron was better every season after that, and after 2010 it's seriously not even close. As absolutely atrocious as LeBron was in 2011, Kobe was horrible against Dallas too.

[HoopsNY]

Kobe was better in '08, LeBron was better every season after that, and after 2010 it's seriously not even close. As absolutely atrocious as LeBron was in 2011, Kobe was horrible against Dallas too.

Yea I understand what you mean. I'm not really looking at the entire sample inclusive of regular season and the entire playoffs. I think what's interesting is how close they were against these teams. Kobe won 2 titles and 3 trips to the finals without super-teams, though, which I think makes up for any gaps that I may have once held against him.

For me, it's a lot closer than I originally imagined given how they both performed against each team. And while LeBron was in his peak, Kobe was coming out of his, which should be accounted for as well.

[LeGoat4Life]

A case?

There was never a case

The general consensus has always been Kobe > Lebron

[Johnny32]

so the case for kobe is...lebron was better in every series vs a common opponent besides one...even without a consistent jumper. lol brilliant.

[1987_Lakers]

Does anyone else think LeBron hit his offensive peak from 2016-2018? He had the total package in those years while still having crazy athleticism. I mean, you can make an argument for it.

LeBron improved his jumper in Miami, but alot of those series you listed happened when LeBron wasn't at his offensive peak IMO, he relied alot on his athleticism from '08-'10, he later added more skill.

[SouBeachTalents]

Yea I understand what you mean. I'm not really looking at the entire sample inclusive of regular season and the entire playoffs. I think what's interesting is how close they were against these teams. Kobe won 2 titles and 3 trips to the finals without super-teams, though, which I think makes up for any gaps that I may have once held against him.

For me, it's a lot closer than I originally imagined given how they both performed against each team. And while LeBron was in his peak, Kobe was coming out of his, which should be accounted for as well.
Sure, historically Kobe didn't have a super team, but outside of maybe Boston he had the best supporting cast in the league during his title runs, and undoubtedly a better one than LeBron did over that same period. The individual gap between the two of them is so decisive you'd have to focus almost solely on team accomplishments to give Kobe the nod for '09 & '10.

And 2011 & esp 2012 are frankly an insult to even try to compare the two of them :lol

[HoopsNY]

Does anyone else think LeBron hit his offensive peak from 2016-2018? He had the total package in those years while still having crazy athleticism. I mean, you can make an argument for it.

LeBron improved his jumper in Miami, but alot of those series you listed happened when LeBron wasn't at his offensive peak IMO, he relied alot on his athleticism from '08-'10, he later added more skill.

I think LeBron's offensive game seems to be better, but how much of that coincides with the era of the three point revolution and relaxed defenses? I don't think LeBron was better offensively after 2015, despite the numbers showing otherwise.

It's like the argument I make for Steph. Steph won MVP in 2015 averaging 23.8 PPG. I don't think Steph from say, last season, was better than he was then. It's just the game as opened up a lot more as the years have gone on.

I mean, look at guys like Rondo. From 2007-15, Rondo shot 26% from three. From 2016-22, he's shooting 36%, a full 10% higher.

Look at KD from 2017-22, is he really better than KD from say, 2011-16? Or has the game evolved? And this is with a torn achilles.

[HoopsNY]

Sure, historically Kobe didn't have a super team, but outside of maybe Boston he had the best supporting cast in the league during his title runs, and undoubtedly a better one than LeBron did over that same period. The individual gap between the two of them is so decisive you'd have to focus almost solely on team accomplishments to give Kobe the nod for '09 & '10.

And 2011 & esp 2012 are frankly an insult to even try to compare the two of them :lol

Well we're looking at individual performances too keep in mind. If Kobe gets the "his team was better" for the earlier years, then LeBron gets that nod for 2011 and 2012, too.

Again, I'm still convinced that LeBron has the edge. But before, I had it by a very wide margin. Now, I'm not so sure that gap is so big.

[HoopsNY]

A case?

There was never a case

The general consensus has always been Kobe > Lebron

There is no such consensus. In fact, it's the opposite. You won't find a list with Kobe over LeBron. Stop being stubborn and at least admit that much.

[HoopsNY]

so the case for kobe is...lebron was better in every series vs a common opponent besides one...even without a consistent jumper. lol brilliant.

Meh, just barely if you value some things over others. For one, you're not looking at the value of a super-team, which you'll never admit, I get that. But you're also not weighing Stan Van Gundy's strategy in the series against ORL, which again, comes as no surprise, since you hate Kobe.

[Johnny32]

Van Gundy is actually one of the only two Eastern coaches to defeat James in a playoff series dating back to 2009. His Orlando Magic knocked James and the Cavs out in the East Finals (James and the Cavs fell to Doc Rivers and the Celtics in 2010, and that's it - James hasn't lost a series in the East since).

James averaged 38.5 points against the Magic in the 2009 conference finals, but Orlando won the series in six games. The Cavs, of course, also lost the NBA Finals in six games last year to the Golden State Warriors, during which James averaged 35.8 points and took a career-high 196 shots for a playoff series.

So, is that the "book" on James - give him space to score and make sure no one else beats you?

Van Gundy says it isn't, or, at least, it shouldn't work against the Cavs as currently constructed.

"I mean, he didn't have Kevin Love and he didn't have Kyrie Irving (in the Finals, because of injuries), so that's a little different team than who we're going to be playing," Van Gundy said. "And he didn't have those guys when we played them in 09, either. So it's a whole different thing. You can't just go in and have a blanket strategy of how you want to play LeBron James."

Oh, and one more thing.

"And we didn't try to let LeBron get his, he just got it," Van Gundy said, speaking about the 2009 series. "He got us for 36 a game. Believe me, we didn't go in and say we're letting LeBron get his, we tried like hell to play him."

lol

[Johnny32]

“LeBron just made it so difficult. The one thing I don’t leave this game with is any idea whatsoever what to do with him. As a coach you’re supposed to have some idea — I don’t have a clue. I don’t. When we double-teamed him, he made the right play every time and they made shots. When we didn’t double-team him, he made every jumpshot he took, it seemed like. He gets the ball to the basket and draws fouls. You would like to come out of Game 1 and say ‘at least we found a gameplan we think will work’ I can’t say I’ve done that. He’s unbelievable and he was incredible tonight.”

lol

[Johnny32]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_S1Gp2iwos0&ab_channel=ESPN

thx for bringing up svg, op. it's been fun!

[HoopsNY]

“LeBron just made it so difficult. The one thing I don’t leave this game with is any idea whatsoever what to do with him. As a coach you’re supposed to have some idea — I don’t have a clue. I don’t. When we double-teamed him, he made the right play every time and they made shots. When we didn’t double-team him, he made every jumpshot he took, it seemed like. He gets the ball to the basket and draws fouls. You would like to come out of Game 1 and say ‘at least we found a gameplan we think will work’ I can’t say I’ve done that. He’s unbelievable and he was incredible tonight.”

lol

It's a different tone here than what he said here....


In the conference finals, of course, they faced LeBron, who averaged 38.5 points a game, eight rebounds, and eight assists. This was all part of the plan. At the time, the Magic had, counting an exhibition trip to China, played James nine times over two seasons and had success by not overreacting to him. “If you look into the rest of my coaching career, I clearly didn’t have any formula to beat LeBron,” Van Gundy said. “Our theory defensively, we wanted him to be more of a scorer and less of a guy to help those guys play well. Those other guys needed LeBron to play well. He put up absolutely huge numbers, but we had more overall talent.”

“Hedo didn’t have the physical strength or talent of Giannis, but this was a 6-foot-10 guy who handled and passed like a point guard and shot the 3. Even to this day, he’s on a short list of guys who could do that. There just haven’t been many guys like him in league history.” —Stan Van Gundy
“We didn’t ever change our principles, whether it was Hedo or Pietrus guarding him. We were coming to help, we weren’t leaving people on an island, but we weren’t going to double-team LeBron, we weren’t blitzing his pick-and-rolls, we were not double-teaming him in the post or in his back-ins. That’s tough on the guys guarding him, and I’m sure they wanted a few more double-teams, but that’s the way we’d played him for two years and had success.”

[HoopsNY]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_S1Gp2iwos0&ab_channel=ESPN

thx for bringing up svg, op. it's been fun!

Yea, you can choose to disregard ORL not doubling LeBron every chance they could, but believe what you want.

[eliteballer]

LeBron's a juicer, do not compare him to Kobe.

[iamgine]

I think LeBron > Kobe both for a career and as an individual player, but one thing that is interesting is if you isolate the teams they both faced from 2008-12 in the playoffs.

2008

Kobe vs. BOS: 26/5/5/3 on 41/32/80
LeBron vs. BOS: 27/6/8/2 on 35/23/76

2009

Kobe vs. ORL: 32/6/7/1 on 43/36/81
LeBron vs. ORL: 39/8/8/1 on 48/30/75

2010

Kobe vs. BOS: 29/8/4/2 41/32/88
LeBron vs. BOS: 29/9/7/2 on 45/27/74

2011

Kobe vs. DAL: 23/3/3/2 on 46/23/80
LeBron vs. DAL: 18/7/7/2 on 48/32/60

2012

Kobe vs. OKC: 31/5/4/2 on 43/11/86
LeBron vs. OKC: 29/10/7/2 47/19/83

Both players were in their peaks with Kobe experiencing a slight decline after 2010. LeBron's series against Orlando is the best, though Stan Van Gundy admitted to leaving LeBron and worrying more about his cast's shooting. I still think LeBron has the longevity and career argument, but as individual players, they seem to be a lot closer than even I was willing to admit.

I still give LeBron the edge when looking at it, but it's not as drastic as I originally believed, especially when you consider the formation of the super-team in 2011 and 2012. Given Kobe's success during that time though, it does beg to ask the question.

Meh arguments can be made in any way to make it not close.

For example, in 2008, Kobe had Gasol/Odom and lost to Celtics in 6 while being blown out. Lebron had nobody even close to Gasol and pushed the Celtics to a VERY close game 7.

[HoopsNY]

LeBron's a juicer, do not compare him to Kobe.

No proof of this. Try to address the actual subject please.

[eliteballer]

Kobe also wasn't anywhere near his peak in 10 or 11. I'd argue 9 as well.

He was practically playing on one knee.

[eliteballer]

Also compare their overall playoff stats Kobe 2008-2010 and LeBron 2011-2014...despite Kobe being the same age in 2008 LeRoid was in 2014..

[1987_Lakers]

Yea, you can choose to disregard ORL not doubling LeBron every chance they could, but believe what you want.

To be fair, LeBron is rarely double teamed because of his passing ability.

[HoopsNY]

Kobe also wasn't anywhere near his peak in 10 or 11. I'd argue 9 as well.

He was practically playing on one knee.

Yea you can account for that but I don't think the difference in performance is huge, it probably draws it a little closer though I do agree.


Also compare their overall playoff stats Kobe 2008-2010 and LeBron 2011-2014...despite Kobe being the same age in 2008 LeRoid was in 2014..

I specifically focused on the years I mentioned since they both faced the same teams.

[HoopsNY]

To be fair, LeBron is rarely double teamed because of his passing ability.

Yea, I guess it matters here because the points seem inflated, but there is a context to it. You're not wrong though, but I do think SVG's strategy should be accounted for when you see the 38.5 PPG.

[HoopsNY]

I think LeBron's offensive game seems to be better, but how much of that coincides with the era of the three point revolution and relaxed defenses? I don't think LeBron was better offensively after 2015, despite the numbers showing otherwise.

It's like the argument I make for Steph. Steph won MVP in 2015 averaging 23.8 PPG. I don't think Steph from say, last season, was better than he was then. It's just the game as opened up a lot more as the years have gone on.

I mean, look at guys like Rondo. From 2007-15, Rondo shot 26% from three. From 2016-22, he's shooting 36%, a full 10% higher.

Look at KD from 2017-22, is he really better than KD from say, 2011-16? Or has the game evolved? And this is with a torn achilles.

1987_Lakers, I'm interested in your take on this. I might be wrong but when we see league-wide improvements, including from players who preceded 2015-16, then that doesn't tell me that any particular player is automatically better offensively now, but because there are additional factors that influence the overall offensive output.

Look at Chris Paul, who is another interesting case:

Paul '06-'14: .357 3pt% | .575 TS%
Paul '15-22: .377 3pt% | .592 TS%

Paul just led the league in assists this year with 10.8; that's his highest assist total since 2014, and he's 36.

I say all that to say this, if you put peak LeBron from say, 2009, in today's game....good God. They might have to change the rules to stop him.

[1987_Lakers]

I think LeBron's offensive game seems to be better, but how much of that coincides with the era of the three point revolution and relaxed defenses? I don't think LeBron was better offensively after 2015, despite the numbers showing otherwise.

It's like the argument I make for Steph. Steph won MVP in 2015 averaging 23.8 PPG. I don't think Steph from say, last season, was better than he was then. It's just the game as opened up a lot more as the years have gone on.

I mean, look at guys like Rondo. From 2007-15, Rondo shot 26% from three. From 2016-22, he's shooting 36%, a full 10% higher.

Look at KD from 2017-22, is he really better than KD from say, 2011-16? Or has the game evolved? And this is with a torn achilles.

it could be alot of factors.

- Nutrition is at an all-time high, which is why you see many players still playing elite at an older age
- Players tend to shoot better as they age, see Jason Kidd
- With more spacing in today's league, it gives you more open shots, less defensive players to help over

[HoopsNY]

it could be alot of factors.

- Nutrition is at an all-time high, which is why you see many players still playing elite at an older age
- Players tend to shoot better as they age, see Jason Kidd
- With more spacing in today's league, it gives you more open shots, less defensive players to help over

I don't think nutrition is a factor, really. I mean, yea, in terms of keeping players healthy, but not on the game in and of itself.

Kidd is an interesting sample, but it kinda proves my point. Kidd's 3PA from 1995-01 was 3 per game and he shot the ball at a 32% clip. From 2002-13 he attempted almost 5 3PA a game, shooting at a 36% clip.

Volume generally helps players. My point is, it's not a testimony to a player's offensive abilities per se, rather on how the game evolves and how players evolve with it. I mean, just look at big men like Horford, Lopez, M. Gasol, or even Pau Gasol:

Brook Lopez from 3:

2009-16: 3-31 (10%)
2017-21: 649-1,883 (35%)

Marc Gasol from 3:

2009-16: 12-66 (18%)
2017-21: 419-1,131 (37%)

Pau Gasol from 3:

2002-14: 38-154 (25%)
2015-19: 141-332 (43%)

Al Horford from 3:

2008-15: 21-65 (32%)
2016-21: 588-1,627 (36%)

Volume is a pretty decent indicator and I think as the game has evolved, players may seem to be better offensively, but I think perception is deceptive without context. The game is just different now.

[SATAN]

What's with all the Kobe worship over the past couple months?

He's dead. He hasn't gotten better since he died. I don't want to knock Kobe fans but reality is reality.

[2much_knowledge]

The excuse was always the 2 extra assist and rebounds per and the mvps

The same 2 extra stats that prime westbrook had over bron year after year but no one cared about

And clowning kobe for having 1 mvp but some worship shaq who also has 1 mvp

[RRR3]

OP throws a fit when Steph Curry is compared to MJ but thinks comparing LeBron to Kobe is reasonable :lol

[RRR3]

I can’t believe OP is actually comparing Kobe to LeBron in 2012. That is like comparing Zach Lavine to Giannis right now. Sorry LeBron constantly being compared to your childhood idol makes you poop your adult diapers, OP, but I doubt it’s gonna stop anytime soon.

[Shogon]

The NBA isn't 1 v 5. The amount of nuance that goes into comparing individual players' stats against specific teams is too much for the human mind to comprehend.

Suffice it to say, these players did not have the same rosters around them. The exponential amount of factors that go into team success and not only team success but how those rosters matched up with the other rosters we're comparing them to is just... well... it really can't be accounted for or known to the human mind definitively. It's all speculatory.

But Kobe had a better team in 2008, 2009, 2010. LeBron in 2011 was the biggest blemish of his career, and LeBron in 2012 smoked him, since we're breaking their performances down to just stats according to you.

Like someone else pointed out, LeBron has been better than Kobe since 2009 at the least imo. Honestly I would put it before that, but I understand why some wouldn't. I honestly think LeBron has arguably been a better basketball player since about his sophomore season.

The thing that confuses people is Kobe's individual scoring.

A lot of fans' viewpoint on the game boils down to how impressive and how aesthetically pleasing of an individual scorer someone is. This is how they rank players. This is why Ja Morant go so much hype from the same type of people that would say that Kobe was clearly the best player in the league, even though he arguably never was and probably never was for a single season.

This is why they can't comprehend that Mortant's team would be substantially more successful without him during the season and thus the mental gymnastics to justify it are off the charts batshit crazy all over the place. Their brains literally do not understand the concept of team dynamics and the fact that different pieces fit differently and chemistry is something that can't be understood on paper by our puny minds. Their level of understanding is juvenile. Truth be told, however, even the substantially smarter people have a surface level of understanding about all of this compared to what the 'objective truth' is behind all of it. It is unknowable by us. We are all stupid and anyone who says otherwise is lying or they're among the dumbest of us all.


But all that aside? Kobe is both an all time great AND he's also the most overrated player in league history because of the teams he played with, the market he played in, because he snarled, because of his scoring ability and because he was fearless in the clutch moments despite being substantially less effective in said moments. The amount of unjustified all defensive teams he got just off of reputation alone is insane. I think because he tried to mimic MJ so incredibly heavily people just gravitated towards him. IDK. Insane work ethic, extremely overrated talent.

Unbelievably, some people truly believe in their heart of hearts he was a top 5 player of all time and some people are actually stupid enough to believe he was the best basketball player that ever lived. Unreal as it is, these people actually do exist.

Kobe Bryant is a nixed Lakers/Hornets trade away from having a mediocre career and being out of the top 20 all time. LeBron could have 0 titles and he would still be considered top 15 at the worst of all time by everyone, including the people that hate him.

[StrongLurk]

Kobe is one of the GOATs, of course you can make a case for him over Lebron...it's just not a good case.

[3ba11]

You're missing context OP

Lebron averaged 21 on 34% for the last 3 games of the 2010 2nd Round to lose a 2-1 lead as a massive favorite.

Kobe was nowhere near this bad

Same thing with the 2011 Mavs - Kobe wasn't anywhere near as bad as Lebron's goat choke job - Lebron was literally scared and can't be compared to Kobe

Then Lebron shot 35% against the 08' Celtics and 07' Spurs? Again, that's nowhere near Kobe

35% is complete wetting the bed and can't be compared to Kobe..

Lebron was just another Luka-style ball-dominator and massive loser until the "decision" to stack the deck - so he isn't a winner and never learned how to win.. nothing compared to Kobe

[LeGoat4Life]

There is no such consensus. In fact, it's the opposite. You won't find a list with Kobe over LeBron. Stop being stubborn and at least admit that much.

Only delusional kids such as yourself believe that

Majority of the world population have Kobe over Lebron

For example no one in China has Lebron in top 5. Most don’t even know who Lebron is :roll:

It’s basically Mj and Kobe

[1987_Lakers]

Only people that rank Kobe ahead of LeBron are Bron haters.

[RRR3]

Only people that rank Kobe ahead of LeBron are Bron haters.
Just a coincidence I’m sure!

[Johnny32]

Only delusional kids such as yourself believe that

Majority of the world population have Kobe over Lebron

For example no one in China has Lebron in top 5. Most don’t even know who Lebron is :roll:

It’s basically Mj and Kobe

You know how big he is over here in the States. In China (last September) we had a players-only dinner at, I think, Morton’s Steakhouse inside the hotel. We go up there and he’s telling stories about last year’s team and this year, and getting us all ready. We leave, and when we leave, we go down the elevator (of the restaurant, inside the Ritz-Carlton in Shanghai). There might have been 4,000 people chanting his name. And they rushed the elevator to get through; security couldn’t hold everyone back. And one of Kyle Kuzma’s managers was trying to hold people back, and the weight of the people pushing was so much, he basically dislocated his shoulder and had to have surgery.

Dudley would admit that he has never played with anyone who could cause that kind of scene:

… And they kept chanting his name, “King James, King James.” I even got a video of it early on because I was behind him. And I was like, it was so crazy, they were rushing him. … It was mayhem. That’s when I knew this year would be special. I’ve never played with anyone, even though Jordan drafted me, I’ve never played with anyone else that would have something like that.

cry moar virgin.

[HoopsNY]

OP throws a fit when Steph Curry is compared to MJ but thinks comparing LeBron to Kobe is reasonable :lol

I think you mean I threw a "fit" when Steph was compared to LeBron. That is absolutely absurd. Again, why do you keep confusing me with other posters? You have a problem bro.

[HoopsNY]

I can’t believe OP is actually comparing Kobe to LeBron in 2012. That is like comparing Zach Lavine to Giannis right now. Sorry LeBron constantly being compared to your childhood idol makes you poop your adult diapers, OP, but I doubt it’s gonna stop anytime soon.

I used 2008-12 because they both faced the same teams. While you're right that they're not exactly an exact comparison, it's probably the closest that we'll get to a fair comparison since they both contain peak years and against the same competition.

But yea, even at age 33, Kobe put up 31/5/4/2 on 43% against that OKC team, including 42 pts on 55% shooting in the elimination game. And what's with the comparison to Zach LaVine? Are you serious right now?

Kobe 2012

All-Star
All-NBA 1st team
All-Defensive 2nd Team
4th in MVP voting

Compare that to Lavine who for his entire career has All-Star game selections and what else? But yea, nice comparison there.

So yea, it's closer than I thought. Though again, I'd say it leans towards LeBron. Why is that a crime?

[HoopsNY]

You're missing context OP

Lebron averaged 21 on 34% for the last 3 games of the 2010 2nd Round to lose a 2-1 lead as a massive favorite.

Kobe was nowhere near this bad

Same thing with the 2011 Mavs - Kobe wasn't anywhere near as bad as Lebron's goat choke job - Lebron was literally scared and can't be compared to Kobe

Then Lebron shot 35% against the 08' Celtics and 07' Spurs? Again, that's nowhere near Kobe

35% is complete wetting the bed and can't be compared to Kobe..

Lebron was just another Luka-style ball-dominator and massive loser until the "decision" to stack the deck - so he isn't a winner and never learned how to win.. nothing compared to Kobe

If we go deeper into the numbers, I'm sure all of this can be pointed out. I'm not negating what you're saying here, but I don't think it overrides everything else. I still lean to LeBron having the edge over Kobe. But now, I don't think the gap is as wide.

[HoopsNY]

Only people that rank Kobe ahead of LeBron are Bron haters.

I think you have to stop with the extremities here. You come off as a Kobe hater. Poll all the players that faced both Kobe and LeBron, if I'm not mistaken, the overwhelming majority favored Kobe. In addition, they did a poll just a year or two ago and the majority of current NBA players put Kobe over LeBron.

This doesn't mean it's true, of course, but that's why we have forums lol. Players will rate whoever they rate and have their reasons. We tend to look at numbers, accolades, and what is apparent as the be all end all, while most players don't account for what we account for. It's the way the world works.

In this respect, when looking at 2008-12, I believe the conversation is far more nuanced and closer between the two players than some are willing to to admit.

[SouBeachTalents]

I think you have to stop with the extremities here. You come off as a Kobe hater. Poll all the players that faced both Kobe and LeBron, if I'm not mistaken, the overwhelming majority favored Kobe. In addition, they did a poll just a year or two ago and the majority of current NBA players put Kobe over LeBron.

This doesn't mean it's true, of course, but that's why we have forums lol. Players will rate whoever they rate and have their reasons. We need to look at numbers, accolades, and what is apparent as the be all end all, while most players don't account for what we account for. It's the way the world works.

In this respect, when looking at 2008-12, I believe the conversation is far more nuanced and closer between the two players than some are willing to to admit.
This is just completely untrue :lol To make this a more legitimate debate you need to remove 2011 & 2012 from the discussion. Outside of one atrocious series LeBron was undoubtedly better, and frankly much better than Kobe was over those 2 years. He was decisively better in '09 & '10 too, but at least Kobe was still playing at an ATG level those years.

[RRR3]

LeBron in 2012: RPM 6.88, RAPM 3.48, BPM 10.9 , ON/OFF +14.0,

Kobe: RPM 2.74, RAPM 0.87, 3.3 BPM, ON/OFF 5.2




Kobe’s TS% against the Thunder was a shitty 51.5% so I’m not sure why OP is talking up that series as if he played well and using caveman measures of efficiency like FG%, considering he wasn’t a good defender at this point and also gagged away numerous games that series in crunch time. That was also a year he was frequently criticized for forcing up shots at the expense of Bynum and Gasol. LeBron was pretty unanimously considered the best player in 2012, Kobe was fringe top 10.


I could compare the other years and it would be similarly lopsided but 2012 just stuck out because that’s just an insane year to argue Kobe was even close to LeBron.

[RRR3]

I think you mean I threw a "fit" when Steph was compared to LeBron. That is absolutely absurd. Again, why do you keep confusing me with other posters? You have a problem bro.
Steph has a significantly better argument versus LeBron than Kobe does if we’re just talking how good of a player they actually were and not career achievements so weird take.

[SouBeachTalents]

LeBron in 2012: RPM 6.88, RAPM 3.48, BPM 10.9 , ON/OFF +14.0,

Kobe: RPM 2.74, RAPM 0.87, 3.3 BPM, ON/OFF 5.2




Kobe’s TS% against the Thunder was a shitty 51.5% so I’m not sure why OP is talking up that series as if he played well and using caveman measures of efficiency like FG, considering he wasn’t a good defender at this point and also gagged away numerous games that series in crunch time. That was also a year he was frequently criticized for forcing up shots at the expense of Bynum and Gasol. LeBron was pretty unanimously considered the best player in 2012, Kobe was fringe top 10.


I could compare the other years and it would be similarly lopsided but 2012 just stuck out because that’s just an insane year to argue Kobe was even close to LeBron.
2011 is just as insane, which says a lot considering LeBron had the worst series ever :lol Decisively better production across the board, despite having to share the load with a still prime Wade, plus superior defense. And again, even if you want to focus solely on his Finals disaster, Kobe was also complete dogshit against the Mavs.

I'm not accusing OP of this, since from what I've seen he's one of the few non trolls on the board, but his arguments ITT come across as disingenuous. He's cherrypicking literal one series worth of games and acting like they somehow supersede an entire seasons worth of evidence, where from '09 on LeBron has the inarguable advantage.

[RRR3]

2011 is just as insane, which says a lot considering LeBron had the worst series ever :lol Decisively better production across the board, despite having to share the load with a still prime Wade, plus superior defense. And again, even if you want to focus solely on his Finals disaster, Kobe was also complete dogshit against the Mavs.

I'm not accusing OP of this, since from what I've seen he's one of the few non trolls on the board, but his arguments ITT come across as disingenuous. He's cherrypicking literal one series worth of games and acting like they somehow supersede an entire seasons worth of evidence, where from '09 on LeBron has the inarguable advantage.
He’s not a troll but he seems to think that means we should take his terrible arguments seriously. Just because you’re not a troll doesn’t mean you’re not biased or ignorant which OP clearly is given this thread and other posts he’s made. PeroAntic doesn’t troll very much and no one who isn’t an insane Rose stan would say he’s a good poster, so I hate this notion that you’re a good poster if you don’t troll. You make this thread on realgm you might get banned for how ignorant it is.

[dankok8]

In 2009 and 2010 the gap wasn't big. People who say otherwise haven't been around or don't remember those seasons. It was a very close debate about who was the better player. In 2011 both had dog shit years from public perspective but Lebron had more to prove. It's only in 2012 onwards that Lebron was decisively better than Kobe.

There were serious questions (and rightfully so) about Lebron's intangibles before 2012. Now of course knowing that Lebron is a 4-time champion, it's easy to go back and pretend those questions weren't there. Kind of how there are questions about Luka's intangibles now and there were questions about Giannis until last year.

[3ba11]

In 2009 and 2010 the gap wasn't big. People who say otherwise haven't been around or don't remember those seasons. It was a very close debate about who was the better player. In 2011 both had dog shit years from public perspective but Lebron had more to prove. It's only in 2012 onwards that Lebron was decisively better than Kobe.

There were serious questions (and rightfully so) about Lebron's intangibles before 2012. Now of course knowing that Lebron is a 4-time champion, it's easy to go back and pretend those questions weren't there. Kind of how there are questions about Luka's intangibles now and there were questions about Giannis until last year.


Lebron never answered questions about intangibles because his victories were talent-based, and his super-team underachieved with 2/4 in Miami, or 1/4 elsewhere.

So he never learned any intangibles like the teammate fits, teammate development or chemistry required to win organically.. He's just a talent-based winner and not a very good one

[MadDog]

Adjusted for possessions, Kobe led the 2009 & 2010 postseason in real plus minus. Or in other words was the most impactful player when it mattered. LeBron fans will downplay Kobe just like they did back then, but there is a case to be had. Kobe didn't need superteams to win championships (won with Pau as his #2 :oldlol:) and was a better defender with a superior skillset.

I believe LeBron's had the greater career, but HoopsNY is right. Their prime/peak play is closer than LeBron's jockstrap fans will admit.

[RRR3]

Adjusted for possessions, Kobe led the 2009 & 2010 postseason in real plus minus. Or in other words was the most impactful player when it mattered. LeBron fans will downplay Kobe just like they did back then, but there is a case to be had. Kobe didn't need superteams to win championships (won with Pau as his #2 :oldlol:) and was a better defender with a superior skillset.

I believe LeBron's had the greater career, but HoopsNY is right. Their prime/peak play is closer than LeBron's jockstrap fans will admit.
Playoffs are a very sample small size and for RPM, anyone who knows the stat will tell you that. if you honestly think Kobe outplayed LeBron in the 2009 playoffs, lol. Kobe is a better defender based on what? Your feelings?

[MadDog]

Playoffs are a very sample small size and for RPM, anyone who knows the stat will tell you that.

Its not RPM. Its rapm. Single season anything +/- has noise, but people still use it when evaluating impact. :confusedshrug:


if you honestly think Kobe outplayed LeBron in the 2009 playoffs, lol. Kobe is a better defender based on what? Your feelings?

Its not about what I "think" but what the data says. Kobe also has more defensive accolades than LeBron -- and in a shorter time frame.

[SouBeachTalents]

In 2009 and 2010 the gap wasn't big. People who say otherwise haven't been around or don't remember those seasons. It was a very close debate about who was the better player. In 2011 both had dog shit years from public perspective but Lebron had more to prove. It's only in 2012 onwards that Lebron was decisively better than Kobe.

There were serious questions (and rightfully so) about Lebron's intangibles before 2012. Now of course knowing that Lebron is a 4-time champion, it's easy to go back and pretend those questions weren't there. Kind of how there are questions about Luka's intangibles now and there were questions about Giannis until last year.
He was decisively better in 2011 too. I know the Finals will skew that perception, but Kobe has absolutely no argument to be placed on LeBron's tier in 2011. LeBron, Dirk, Wade & Dwight were the best players in the league that year, Kobe was simply not on that level.


Adjusted for possessions, Kobe led the 2009 & 2010 postseason in real plus minus. Or in other words was the most impactful player when it mattered. LeBron fans will downplay Kobe just like they did back then, but there is a case to be had. Kobe didn't need superteams to win championships (won with Pau as his #2 :oldlol:) and was a better defender with a superior skillset.

I believe LeBron's had the greater career, but HoopsNY is right. Their prime/peak play is closer than LeBron's jockstrap fans will admit.
Really, having the best 2nd option in the league at the time gets a laughing emoji :lol The same guy who outscored the opposing teams first option in half their playoff series during the title years, including both Finals. Regardless of their status as superteam or not, Kobe had the best or 2nd best supporting cast in the league at that time.

[MadDog]

Really, having the best 2nd option in the league at the time gets a laughing emoji :lol The same guy who outscored the opposing teams first option in half their playoff series during the title years, including both Finals. Regardless of their status as superteam or not, Kobe had the best or 2nd best supporting cast in the league at the time.

Compared to the superteams LeBron and KD had -- I would say ya. Quite appropriate lol

[RRR3]

He was decisively better in 2011 too. I know the Finals will skew that perception, but Kobe has absolutely no argument to be placed on LeBron's tier in 2011. LeBron, Dirk, Wade & Dwight were the best players in the league that year, Kobe was simply not on that level.


Really, having the best 2nd option in the league at the time gets a laughing emoji :lol The same guy who outscored the opposing teams first option in half their playoff series during the title years, including both Finals. Regardless of their status as superteam or not, Kobe had the best or 2nd best supporting cast in the league at tat time.
Also LeBron has won a ring without a superteam. How is Anthony Davis+role players a super team supporting cast? There’s been plenty of rosters like that throughout NBA history, it’s only a superteam if you think LeBron literally isn’t allowed to have good teammates (which many people do). I’m not really seeing the case for 2013 being a superteam either considering Wade was so crippled he put up Evan Turner stats in the playoffs. Or 2016 considering Love was hurt and ineffective in the finals. But hey he had a superteam in 2012!

[RRR3]

Compared to the superteams LeBron and KD had -- I would say ya. Quite appropriate lol
LeBron’s second option averaged about 16 PPG on about 50 TS% in the 2013 playoffs. Stacked!

[MadDog]

Also LeBron has won a ring without a superteam. How is Anthony Davis+role players a super team supporting cast? There’s been plenty of rosters like that throughout NBA history, it’s only a superteam if you think LeBron literally isn’t allowed to have good teammates (which many people do).

Cool. But when did I claim the 2020 Lakers were a superteam? I said Kobe didn't need superteams to win championships. Plural. So ya, complete red-herring from you lol


LeBron’s second option averaged about 16 PPG on about 50 TS% in the 2013 playoffs. Stacked!

Wade averaged 20 points in the finals. :confusedshrug:

[RRR3]

Cool. But when did I claim the 2020 team was a superteam? I said Kobe didn't need superteams to win championships. Plural. So ya, complete red-herring from you lol
How did LeBron need a superteam in 2013 or 2016? Tell me how what an injured Wade or an injured Love provided in the 13 and 16 playoffs that was superteam worthy. Not to mention LeBron beat a team better than Kobe ever faced in 2016. I’m not sure why this arbitrary “boo-boo-but he had a superteam” shit is even relevant considering Kobe has the best supporting cast in the league in 09 and 2010. It doesn’t matter if it wasn’t a superteam historically he had the best help at the time he wasn’t overcoming great odds. His two main perimeter competitors were playing with scrubs at the time, and I wouldn’t call Dwight, Yao or Melo’s casts amazing either. Which leaves you with the Celtics with post injury KG. Who LeBron also beat when he had more than g league help

[HoopsNY]

This is just completely untrue :lol To make this a more legitimate debate you need to remove 2011 & 2012 from the discussion. Outside of one atrocious series LeBron was undoubtedly better, and frankly much better than Kobe was over those 2 years. He was decisively better in '09 & '10 too, but at least Kobe was still playing at an ATG level those years.

How is it untrue if - in totality - we're looking at the entire sample size? If we want to isolate 2012, then sure, but that's not what I am doing here.

You're not getting the entire premise of my OP. One of the hardest things to do is to compare players across eras. LeBron and Kobe are unique in a way because their peaks (somewhat) coincide and they happened to face the same teams in the same years.

The sample I provided is actually unfair to Kobe - not LeBron - so I don't understand what the issue is here.


LeBron in 2012: RPM 6.88, RAPM 3.48, BPM 10.9 , ON/OFF +14.0,

Kobe: RPM 2.74, RAPM 0.87, 3.3 BPM, ON/OFF 5.2

Great, now show me where I intended to isolate 2012. I specifically used their performances because:

1) They coincide with some of each player's peak years
2) They both faced the same teams
3) The common idea, at least for me and many others, is that there is such a huge gap between Kobe and LeBron

Furthermore, you're the one who drew the analogy: Kobe is to LeBron as LaVine is to Giannis. It's an absurd analogy. Kobe was All-NBA 1st Team, 4th in MVP voting, and All-Defensive 2nd Team. LaVine is literally on nobody's radar, yet I'm a LeBron hater? You should check yourself for Kobe hate.


Kobe’s TS% against the Thunder was a shitty 51.5% so I’m not sure why OP is talking up that series as if he played well and using caveman measures of efficiency like FG%, considering he wasn’t a good defender at this point and also gagged away numerous games that series in crunch time. That was also a year he was frequently criticized for forcing up shots at the expense of Bynum and Gasol. LeBron was pretty unanimously considered the best player in 2012, Kobe was fringe top 10.

I used FG%, 3pt%, and FTH%, but nice spin. You're not wrong about Bynum and Gasol, but let's stop acting like they were that great that series anyway. Since you want to be precise, let's look at the cast:

Bynum: 16.6 PPG | 43.5%
Gasol: 12.0 PPG | 44.4%
Artest: 11.0 PPG | 37.8%
Sessions: 6.8 PPG | 35.3%
Blake: 4.6 PPG | 38.9%

Compare that to guys like Wade, Bosh, Battier, Miller, and Chalmers (hint: there's a significant difference).

And Kobe was a "fringe" top 10 player, but somehow finished 4th in MVP voting and All-NBA 1st Team?


I could compare the other years and it would be similarly lopsided but 2012 just stuck out because that’s just an insane year to argue Kobe was even close to LeBron.

I never isolated 2012, I merely provided a sample of how each player played against the same competition over the same stretch of years that coincide with their peaks. Furthermore, Kobe wasn't even in his peak in 2012, nor did he play on a super-team. As I previously said, my sample is unfair to Kobe. If you adjust for that, then the fact that he shot 52% TS% with 31 PPG is more of a credit than a detriment to him.

Of course, you can't fathom this, because you've replaced Roundball as being my number 1 hater for some reason.

[MadDog]

How did LeBron need a superteam in 2013 or 2016? Tell me how what an injured Wade or an injured Love provided in the 13 and 16 playoffs that was superteam worthy. Not to mention LeBron beat a team better than Kobe ever faced in 2016. I’m not sure why this arbitrary “boo-boo-but he had a superteam” shit is even relevant considering Kobe has the best supporting cast in the league in 09 and 2010. It doesn’t matter if it wasn’t a superteam historically he had the best help at the time he wasn’t overcoming great odds. His two main perimeter competitors were playing with scrubs at the time, and I wouldn’t call Dwight, Yao or Melo’s casts amazing either. Which leaves you with the Celtics with post injury KG. Who LeBron also beat when he had more than g league help

Lol how? In the finals, Wade averaged 20/5/4 (with good defense) on a 48% clip. In 2013 as a whole, the Heat had three ****ing stars including LeBron. And also elite shooting. Last time I checked that constituted as a superteam. :confusedshrug: Sorry but the parameters don't change because you're upset. LeBron's had much better help than Kobe throughout his career. Its not even close dude.

[HoopsNY]

2011 is just as insane, which says a lot considering LeBron had the worst series ever :lol Decisively better production across the board, despite having to share the load with a still prime Wade, plus superior defense. And again, even if you want to focus solely on his Finals disaster, Kobe was also complete dogshit against the Mavs.

I wouldn't say the series was "decisively" better. Again, you have to contextualize some things. 2011 wasn't Kobe's peak, so again it's a bit unfair to Kobe. In addition, what did Wade do vs. Dallas, and what did Gasol do?

Wade vs DAL: 27/7/5/2/2 on 55%
Gasol vs DAL: 13/9/4/1/1 on 42%

One was on a super-team, the other wasn't. That matters in the grand scheme of things given the outcome. If Kobe is alongside Wade/Bosh and co. do you think he wins in 2011? Intuition tells me he does.


I'm not accusing OP of this, since from what I've seen he's one of the few non trolls on the board, but his arguments ITT come across as disingenuous. He's cherrypicking literal one series worth of games and acting like they somehow supersede an entire seasons worth of evidence, where from '09 on LeBron has the inarguable advantage.

How? Because I don't believe the gap is as wide as I previously believed? I am simply saying, given that both guys had peak years in this stretch AND faced the same teams, along with their eventual outcomes (Kobe - 3 finals, 2 Titles, 2 FMVPs to LeBron's 2 finals, 1 Title, 1 FMVP), it's not unreasonable for me to think that the gap is closer than originally believed.

I can now reason why some might put Kobe over LeBron, even though I still give LeBron the edge. And we went into 2009 already. Given SVG's unwillingness to double regularly (even in the post), then the PPG seems a bit inflated. Otherwise, Kobe averaged 32 PPG himself. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, not only did Kobe have a better +/- than LeBron in the playoffs for 2009, but he did so against ORL as well. LAL looked incapable of scoring without Kobe on the floor.

Kobe +/- '09 Finals: +45
LeBron +/- '09 ECF: -7

Kobe +/- '09 PS: +13.4
LeBron +/- '09 PS: +11.6

http://www.82games.com/0809/playoffs/playoffs.htm

Not saying it's the be all, end all. But I think people generally underrate Kobe's 2009 run.

[HoopsNY]

He’s not a troll but he seems to think that means we should take his terrible arguments seriously. Just because you’re not a troll doesn’t mean you’re not biased or ignorant which OP clearly is given this thread and other posts he’s made. PeroAntic doesn’t troll very much and no one who isn’t an insane Rose stan would say he’s a good poster, so I hate this notion that you’re a good poster if you don’t troll. You make this thread on realgm you might get banned for how ignorant it is.

If you want a place where everyone agrees with you, then move to China. Otherwise, appreciate that you have people like myself who at least offer an open and honest discussion. You're a really disgruntled, angry poster. I really have to wonder why. You've been around since 2011, so I'd imagine you've come across your fair share of idiotic posters who probably have tested your patience, so i'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

I'm not so sure what's so biased about this? And other threads? Please point them out. All because - for the totality of years, given the context - I decided that the gap isn't as wide as previously believed? You're being absurd now.

[Johnny32]

Lol how? In the finals, Wade averaged 20/5/4 (with good defense) on a 48% clip. In 2013 as a whole, the Heat had three ****ing stars including LeBron. And also elite shooting. Last time I checked that constituted as a superteam. :confusedshrug: Sorry but the parameters don't change because you're upset. LeBron's had much better help than Kobe throughout his career. Its not even close dude.

in the playoffs he avg 16 ppg. that's your super team second option.

[MadDog]

If you want a place where everyone agrees with you, then move to China. Otherwise, appreciate that you have people like myself who at least offer an open and honest discussion. You're a really disgruntled, angry poster. I really have to wonder why. You've been around since 2011, so I'd imagine you've come across your fair share of idiotic posters who probably have tested your patience, so i'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

I'm not so sure what's so biased about this? And other threads? Please point them out. All because - for the totality of years, given the context - I decided that the gap isn't as wide as previously believed? You're being absurd now.

Because you've come with a decent take and have presented evidence to substantiate that claim. LeBron fans HATE when you go against their groupthink. But REALLY hate when you have facts, and they cant debunk them. :oldlol: Like you, I also think LeBron>Kobe. Both for career and peak. Its really not crazy to think Kobe at his absolute best was in that tier.

Your posts have been reasonable and well thought-out. Keep them up!

[MadDog]

in the playoffs he avg 16 ppg. that's your super team second option.

You're moving the goal post, RRR3. Again, to win a ring, Wade averaged 20ppg. :confusedshrug:

[HoopsNY]

Adjusted for possessions, Kobe led the 2009 & 2010 postseason in real plus minus. Or in other words was the most impactful player when it mattered. LeBron fans will downplay Kobe just like they did back then, but there is a case to be had. Kobe didn't need superteams to win championships (won with Pau as his #2 :oldlol:) and was a better defender with a superior skillset.

I believe LeBron's had the greater career, but HoopsNY is right. Their prime/peak play is closer than LeBron's jockstrap fans will admit.

LAL needed Kobe on offense. 82games.com does a spread (albeit with limited minutes), of what their 5 man rosters looked like without Kobe, but with Gasol and Odom. It wasn't very good. People forget that Kobe was the focal point of that offense and there wasn't another playmaker/off the ball specialist to derail defenses like a D. Wade, Mo Williams, or Kyrie Irving. That is, unless they think Fisher or Blake fit that script.

[HoopsNY]

Because you've come with a decent take and have presented evidence to substantiate that claim. LeBron fans HATE when you go against their groupthink. But REALLY hate when you have facts, and they cant debunk them. :oldlol: Like you, I also think LeBron>Kobe. Both for career and peak. Its really not crazy to think Kobe at his absolute best was in that tier.

Your posts have been reasonable and well thought-out. Keep them up!

Thanks, I appreciate it. It's why I told 1987_Lakers, he's being unreasonable. Just because someone has Kobe > LeBron doesn't make them a LeBron hater. After all, most of the NBA and past players who played both of them have chosen Kobe. I don't think any of those guys "hate LeBron."

[Johnny32]

09 playoffs

kobe - 30, 5, 5 on 46%
gasol - 18, 11, 3 on 58%
odom - 12, 9, 2 on 52%

hurrr, not super team

13 playoffs

lebron - 26, 8, 7 on 49%
wade - 16, 5, 5 on 46%
bosh - 12, 7, 2 on 46%

durrr, super team

[Johnny32]

09 playoffs

kobe - 30, 5, 5 on 46%
gasol - 18, 11, 3 on 58%
odom - 12, 9, 2 on 52%

hurrr, not super team

13 playoffs

lebron - 26, 8, 7 on 49%
wade - 16, 5, 5 on 46%
bosh - 12, 7, 2 on 46%

durrr, super team

imagine legoat taking 11 more fga per gm than his 18 ppg prime hof second option while shooting 12% lower from the field. absolutely embarrassing display of me-first chucking.

[Johnny32]

You're moving the goal post, RRR3. Again, to win a ring, Wade averaged 20ppg. :confusedshrug:

uh, that would be you, dumbass

[MadDog]

uh, that would be you, dumbass

Hey retard. We were talking about winning championships. You don't win rings in the first or second round :oldlol: In the finals, Wade was great as a second option. In 2013 as a whole Miami also had 3 stars. Ergo a superteam. Accept that fact and quit crying about it.

[HoopsNY]

09 playoffs

kobe - 30, 5, 5 on 46%
gasol - 18, 11, 3 on 58%
odom - 12, 9, 2 on 52%

hurrr, not super team

13 playoffs

lebron - 26, 8, 7 on 49%
wade - 16, 5, 5 on 46%
bosh - 12, 7, 2 on 46%

durrr, super team


imagine legoat taking 11 more fga per gm than his 18 ppg prime hof second option while shooting 12% lower from the field. absolutely embarrassing display of me-first chucking.

It's amazing I'm called "disingenuous" when this Johnny guy spams the forum with his continuous Jordan/Kobe hatred. The 2013 Heat won 66 games with 3 All-Stars, not to mention veteran leadership like that of Allen and Battier. And I like how he's posting their playoff stats as justification, yet him and others will routinely say the '96 Bulls were a "super-team":

Chicago '96 PS

Pippen: 16.9 PPG | 39%
Kukoc: 10.8 PPG | 39%
Harper: 8.8 PPG | 42%
Longley: 8.3 PPG | 47%

He'll focus on Gasol's FG% and forget that Bosh became relegated to more of a jump-shooting role when he joined Miami. Of course Gasol had a much higher FG% if 70%+ of his FGA come from below 10 ft.

[Johnny32]

It's amazing I'm called "disingenuous" when this Johnny guy spams the forum with his continuous Jordan/Kobe hatred. The 2013 Heat won 66 games with 3 All-Stars, not to mention veteran leadership like that of Allen and Battier. And I like how he's posting their playoff stats as justification, yet him and others will routinely say the '96 Bulls were a "super-team":

Chicago '96 PS

Pippen: 16.9 PPG | 39%
Kukoc: 10.8 PPG | 39%
Harper: 8.8 PPG | 42%
Longley: 8.3 PPG | 47%

He'll focus on Gasol's FG% and forget that Bosh became relegated to more of a jump-shooting role when he joined Miami. Of course Gasol had a much higher FG% if 70%+ of his FGA come from below 10 ft.

compare the 96 bulls supporting cast to their own era you simple minded twit.

[HoopsNY]

compare the 96 bulls supporting cast to their own era you simple minded twit.

Poor simple minded incel can't stand the fact that he's inbred. Which cast exactly? Did you take a look at the Eastern Conference in 2013, or are you just willfully a case of severe mental retardation?

[Johnny32]

Hey retard. We were talking about winning championships. You don't win rings in the first or second round :oldlol: In the finals, Wade was great as a second option. In 2013 as a whole Miami had 3 stars. Ergo a superteam. Accept that fact and quit crying about it.

uh, you have to get to the finals, tardboy. your argument is the heat were a super team because wade avg 20 ppg for 7 games. brilliant. kobe had much better and much more efficient help in his finals runs than lebron in 13. call it whatever you want.

[Johnny32]

Poor simple minded incel can't stand the fact that he's inbred. Which cast exactly? Did you take a look at the Eastern Conference in 2013, or are you just willfully a case of severe mental retardation?

lmao @ how angry this fat kid is getting.

[MadDog]

uh, you have to get to the finals, tardboy. your argument is the heat were a super team because wade avg 20 ppg for 7 games. brilliant. kobe had much better and much more efficient help in his finals runs than lebron in 13. call it whatever you want.

Wrong again RRR3. I simply said Wade was great in the finals (countering his "weak numbers" against poor eastern playoff teams). And that you dont win a championship until the finals. Throughout 2013, though, Wade played at a star level. Which is why he was voted as one, idiot. Him and Bosh. Miami also had 1 more star than the Lakers, hence why they're considered a superteam. You can weep all you want, but your tears wont change that fact.

[Johnny32]

Wrong again RRR3. I simply said Wade was great in the finals (countering his "weak numbers" against poor eastern playoff teams). Throughout 2013, though, Wade played at a star level. Which is why he was voted as one. Him and Bosh. The Heat also had 1 more star than the Lakers, hence why they're considered a superteam. You can weep all you want, but your tears wont change that fact.

their on-court production disagrees with your very simple super team narrative.

[MadDog]

their on-court production disagrees with your very simple super team narrative.

Their "on-court production" and impact say they were AS level, which is why they were voted in. Wade put a stamp on that in the finals en-route to a ring. Sorry retard, but you cannot spin that fact.

[1987_Lakers]

Wade was atrocious throughout the 2013 playoffs then performed better in the Finals.

Some of those playoff games in 2013 were straight carry jobs. Just look at the Indiana series, I clearly remember media and fans pointing out how little help LeBron was getting.

[Johnny32]

Their "on-court production" and impact say they were AS level, which is why they were voted in. Wade put a stamp on that in the finals en-route to a ring. Sorry retard, but you cannot spin that fact.

lol you are embarrassing yourself. poor kid is desperately trying to count anything but what actually happened on the court to prove one team was a super team and one wasn't.

[FKAri]

I think you have to stop with the extremities here. You come off as a Kobe hater. Poll all the players that faced both Kobe and LeBron, if I'm not mistaken, the overwhelming majority favored Kobe. In addition, they did a poll just a year or two ago and the majority of current NBA players put Kobe over LeBron.

This doesn't mean it's true, of course, but that's why we have forums lol. Players will rate whoever they rate and have their reasons. We need to look at numbers, accolades, and what is apparent as the be all end all, while most players don't account for what we account for. It's the way the world works.

In this respect, when looking at 2008-12, I believe the conversation is far more nuanced and closer between the two players than some are willing to to admit.

I think in terms of production over a season Lebron was better than Kobe starting around 08. But it took a bit longer for playoff Lebron to overtake playoff Kobe. I do want to mention 09 Wade. He was unbelievable that year and right there with these guys. Unfortunately his health rapidly declined to where his decline in ability might've even outpaced Kobe's for a time.

Anyways, I think Lebron became better than Kobe in the playoffs by 2011(not talking all time I mean in the moment). Despite the stinker in the finals, Lebron was great in the rest of the playoffs whereas Kobe had reached a point where he could no longer carry the Lakers. But the way that Laker team was imploding I'll concede that it's hard to evaluate Kobe's performances.

I'm curious when you think playoffs Lebron surpassed playoff Kobe(again, not talking peak for peak but in the moment).

As for players rating Kobe over Lebron in polls. It's fairly even from what I've seen but it should be noted that players usually rate another player based on how many buckets the other guy could give them(or get from them). Boiling it down to a 1 on 1 thing. Kobe is imo the better 1 on 1 player(in a pound for pound sense at least).

[MadDog]

lol you are embarrassing yourself. poor kid is desperately trying to count anything but what actually happened on the court to prove one team was a super team and one wasn't.

You're babbling at this point. Meanwhile the Heat actually had 3 stars to the Lakers 2. Why does that make you fly into a rage? Lol

[Johnny32]

You're babbling at this point. Meanwhile the Heat actually had 3 stars to the Lakers 2. Why does that make you fly into a rage? Lol

09 playoffs

kobe - 30, 5, 5 on 46%
gasol - 18, 11, 3 on 58%
odom - 12, 9, 2 on 52%

hurrr, not super team

13 playoffs

lebron - 26, 8, 7 on 49%
wade - 16, 5, 5 on 46%
bosh - 12, 7, 2 on 46%

durrr, super team

what actually happens on the court > desperate tard narratives.

[MadDog]

09 playoffs

kobe - 30, 5, 5 on 46%
gasol - 18, 11, 3 on 58%
odom - 12, 9, 2 on 52%

hurrr, not super team

13 playoffs

lebron - 26, 8, 7 on 49%
wade - 16, 5, 5 on 46%
bosh - 12, 7, 2 on 46%

durrr, super team

what actually happens on the court > desperate tard narratives.

Already destroyed this stupid talking point. Wade showed up on the big stage vs superior comp. Look at those numbers from LeBron, moron. There's nothing crazy about them. It also makes the point that LeBron faced weakass competition heading into the finals.

Wade and Bosh played like stars for most of the year. And then Wade popped off in the finals. Its really that simple, RRR3. :oldlol:

[Johnny32]

Already destroyed this stupid talking point

kobe's superstar help > lebron's superstar help.

facts and stats > fat kid yelling please love my kobe

[MadDog]

kobe's superstar help > lebron's superstar help.

facts and stats > fat kid yelling please love my kobe

You're not even saying anything. Stay on topic, you ****ing crackhead :oldlol:

[Johnny32]

lol the irony.

[eliteballer]

Do not compare juicer LeRoid to Kobe.

[outofstomach]

It's amazing I'm called "disingenuous" when this Johnny guy spams the forum with his continuous Jordan/Kobe hatred. The 2013 Heat won 66 games with 3 All-Stars, not to mention veteran leadership like that of Allen and Battier. And I like how he's posting their playoff stats as justification, yet him and others will routinely say the '96 Bulls were a "super-team":

Chicago '96 PS

Pippen: 16.9 PPG | 39%
Kukoc: 10.8 PPG | 39%
Harper: 8.8 PPG | 42%
Longley: 8.3 PPG | 47%

He'll focus on Gasol's FG% and forget that Bosh became relegated to more of a jump-shooting role when he joined Miami. Of course Gasol had a much higher FG% if 70%+ of his FGA come from below 10 ft.keep educating these delusional stans :lol :applause:

[Johnny32]

keep educating these delusional stans :lol :applause:

hurrr, keep edgeukateng these clowns by comparing stats from eras 20 yrs apart, durrr.

[GrayGoat]

Kobe Stan’s: let’s cherry pick a few stats. Oh shit we had to cherry pick to make a case

[HoopsNY]

Kobe Stan’s: let’s cherry pick a few stats. Oh shit we had to cherry pick to make a case

Only I'm not a Kobe stan. My point is, what better analysis is there than to look at how two players play against the same competition in the same time frame which also coincide with their peaks.

Yes, I understand that it's silly to focus only on that and not their entire careers, but I guess my point here was to show how the gap is not as big as we often make it out to be IF we control the factors and make them as equal as we can.

And I still maintain LeBron > Kobe.

[SouBeachTalents]

So all it takes now is a teammate averaging 20 ppg for ONE series to get the "superteam" label :lol Even if he does it on poor efficiency (.505%TS). Gasol was better than 2013 Wade in both Finals wins, scoring one less ppg on much higher efficiency.

[RRR3]

If you want a place where everyone agrees with you, then move to China. Otherwise, appreciate that you have people like myself who at least offer an open and honest discussion. You're a really disgruntled, angry poster. I really have to wonder why. You've been around since 2011, so I'd imagine you've come across your fair share of idiotic posters who probably have tested your patience, so i'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

I'm not so sure what's so biased about this? And other threads? Please point them out. All because - for the totality of years, given the context - I decided that the gap isn't as wide as previously believed? You're being absurd now.
Famously anarchist China, they’ll definitely agree with me wanting to abolish the state there :rolleyes:

[coin24]

Kobe >>> LeRunnerup career loser

Case closed

[RRR3]

Wrong again RRR3. I simply said Wade was great in the finals (countering his "weak numbers" against poor eastern playoff teams). And that you dont win a championship until the finals. Throughout 2013, though, Wade played at a star level. Which is why he was voted as one, idiot. Him and Bosh. Miami also had 1 more star than the Lakers, hence why they're considered a superteam. You can weep all you want, but your tears wont change that fact.
I’m not sure why you think everyone who disagrees with your bad points is me. I frequently disagree with that poster, him being me is pretty stupid considering he thinks the Lakers would have won this year if healthy and I shit on Westbrook all year and said he was torpedoing the team regardless of health. Wade playing at a star level in the 2013 regular season is frankly irrelevant to how he played in the playoffs when he was injured as I never denied Wade was a star in the regular season that year. He was injured in the playoffs and thus not a star at the time. 20 PPG on awful efficiency (50.5 TS%) is superstar level now? Kobe had superstar help with Gasol then. I notice you couldn’t even deny LeBron won without super-team hep in the 2016 playoffs which means you’re already wrong about him not winning multiple rings without superteam help regardless of 2013 :lol

[3ba11]

Kobe is superior because his skillset can build chemistry

So he will build chemistry and therefore win with less help than Lebron's super-team

[RRR3]

Only I'm not a Kobe stan. My point is, what better analysis is there than to look at how two players play against the same competition in the same time frame which also coincide with their peaks.

Yes, I understand that it's silly to focus only on that and not their entire careers, but I guess my point here was to show how the gap is not as big as we often make it out to be IF we control the factors and make them as equal as we can.

And I still maintain LeBron > Kobe.
Insinuating LeBron and Kobe played at a similar level versus OKC in 2012 is quite frankly insulting to anyone who was paying attention at the time.

[RRR3]

So all it takes now is a teammate averaging 20 ppg for ONE series to get the "superteam" label :lol Even if he does it on poor efficiency (.505%TS). Gasol was better than 2013 Wade in both Finals wins, scoring one less ppg on much higher efficiency.
Ah but you see Wade chucked up way more shots for one more point so he was better :lol

No one denies Wade was still a really good player in 2013, we are just denying he was good in the playoffs. He was injured so not his fault but LeBron absolutely gets credit for dragging an injured and mostly ineffective player to a ring. Kobe stans frequently claim Bynum being injured in the playoffs in 09 and 10 means we can’t use him as evidence of Kobe having a good cast so it seems hilarious to not give LeBron the same benefit of the doubt.

[MadDog]

So all it takes now is a teammate averaging 20 ppg for ONE series to get the "superteam" label :lol Even if he does it on poor efficiency (.505%TS). Gasol was better than 2013 Wade in both Finals wins, scoring one less ppg on much higher efficiency.

Hey HoopsNY. This is the guy who called you "disingenuous" lol. If you wanna pretend I just mentioned the finals (and not the bulk of the year -- where Wade played at an AS level) then go for it. But don't pretend you're looking for an objective argument. :oldlol:

[MadDog]

I’m not sure why you think everyone who disagrees with your bad points is me. I frequently disagree with that poster, him being me is pretty stupid considering he thinks the Lakers would have won this year if healthy and I shit on Westbrook all year and said he was torpedoing the team regardless of health. Wade playing at a star level in the 2013 regular season is frankly irrelevant to how he played in the playoffs when he was injured as I never denied Wade was a star in the regular season that year. He was injured in the playoffs and thus not a star at the time. 20 PPG on awful efficiency (50.5 TS%) is superstar level now? Kobe had superstar help with Gasol then. I notice you couldn’t even deny LeBron won without super-team hep in the 2016 playoffs which means you’re already wrong about him not winning multiple rings without superteam help regardless of 2013 :lol

This morning was literally my first time posting in months. What the **** are you talking about? :oldlol: Anyway, that poster quoted me and argued your same talking points. Almost verbatim. Why wouldn't I think its you? :confusedshrug: Also LeBron won in 2012 & 2013. That's multiple rings with a superteam -- so what exactly are your arguing? Kobe never needed one and that was the point.

[Johnny32]

This morning was literally my first time posting in months. What the **** are you talking about? :oldlol: Anyway, that poster quoted me and argued your same talking points. Almost verbatim. Why wouldn't I think its you? :confusedshrug: Also LeBron won in 2012 & 2013. That's multiple rings with a superteam -- so what exactly are your arguing? Kobe never needed one and that was the point.

09 playoffs

kobe - 30, 5, 5 on 46%
gasol - 18, 11, 3 on 58%
odom - 12, 9, 2 on 52%

hurrr, not super team

13 playoffs

lebron - 26, 8, 7 on 49%
wade - 16, 5, 5 on 46%
bosh - 12, 7, 2 on 46%

durrr, super team

[RRR3]

This morning was literally my first time posting in months. What the **** are you talking about? :oldlol: Anyway, that poster quoted me and argued your same talking points. Almost verbatim. Why wouldn't I think its you? :confusedshrug: Also LeBron won in 2012 & 2013. That's multiple rings with a superteam -- so what exactly are your arguing? Kobe never needed one and that was the point.
Idk maybe because he just started angrily insulting you and I wasn’t doing that? I’m pretty open with what my other accounts have been in here and they’ve all been non NBA related gimmick accounts (cashew24, Elmer Fudd and Sigmund Freud). He didn’t require a superteam to win in 2013 as I already detailed (injured Wade was not superteam material) and are you seriously claiming Kobe didn’t have a superteam with Shaq and Glen Rice in 2000?

[Johnny32]

lol is this rrrrrtard elmer fudd from anger gen?

[RRR3]

lol is this rrrrrtard elmer fudd from anger gen?
What? No I never posted there. Shut up weirdo.

[Johnny32]

What? No I never posted there. Shut up weirdo.

lol you're full of shit.

[RRR3]

Everyone who picks the name of a popular cartoon character is the same person so true.

[Johnny32]

Sigmund Freud also a ang gen name lmao @ this clown.

[RRR3]

On to the ignore list you go. Starting a fight with me to “prove” you’re not me to maddog is weird af behavior.

[Johnny32]

lol fake ignore me all you want, elmer tardboy.

[Johnny32]

and for the record i never once acknowledged the dumbass calling me you like 15 times. he was obviously and desperately trying to type about anything but on-court production because it destroys his tardument.

[1987_Lakers]

Can't we all just get along?

[SouBeachTalents]

Hey HoopsNY. This is the guy who called you "disingenuous" lol. If you wanna pretend I just mentioned the finals (and not the bulk of the year -- where Wade played at an AS level) then go for it. But don't pretend you're looking for an objective argument. :oldlol:
Yeah, the guy hyping up a 20/4/5 on 51%TS series as a "great" Finals is definitely interested in objective arguments :lol

[HoopsNY]

I’m not sure why you think everyone who disagrees with your bad points is me. I frequently disagree with that poster, him being me is pretty stupid considering he thinks the Lakers would have won this year if healthy and I shit on Westbrook all year and said he was torpedoing the team regardless of health. Wade playing at a star level in the 2013 regular season is frankly irrelevant to how he played in the playoffs when he was injured as I never denied Wade was a star in the regular season that year. He was injured in the playoffs and thus not a star at the time. 20 PPG on awful efficiency (50.5 TS%) is superstar level now? Kobe had superstar help with Gasol then. I notice you couldn’t even deny LeBron won without super-team hep in the 2016 playoffs which means you’re already wrong about him not winning multiple rings without superteam help regardless of 2013 :lol

Awful efficiency? Who uses TS% for a player who didn't even attempt a three pointer for the entire series? Wade actually shot 48% for that series. Not to mention, it disregards his play in the game 7 where he went 23/10/1/1/2 on 11-21 (52%).

[1987_Lakers]

I would like to mention LeBron's defense on Tony Parker in that 2013 series, straight up locked him up whenever he guarded him. Kobe was never that impactful on the defensive end during his '09-'12 runs.

[RRR3]

Awful efficiency? Who uses TS% for a player who didn't even attempt a three pointer for the entire series? Wade actually shot 48% for that series. Not to mention, it disregards his play in the game 7 where he went 23/10/1/1/2 on 11-21 (52%).
Is TS% supposed to stop being a good measure of efficiency when you don’t take 3s? :lol. 23 points on 21 shots is absolutely not good either, you’re really not helping your case here. Again no one denied Wade had a really good regular season but he was injured in the playoffs and played poorly.

[HoopsNY]

So all it takes now is a teammate averaging 20 ppg for ONE series to get the "superteam" label :lol Even if he does it on poor efficiency (.505%TS). Gasol was better than 2013 Wade in both Finals wins, scoring one less ppg on much higher efficiency.

How do you determine it's "awful efficiency" when Wade didn't even take a three pointer. TS% is irrelevant if a player doesn't shoot threes. For the series, he shot 48% from the field and 77% from the line. What's so putrid about that?

It doesn't surprise me that Gasol had higher efficiency, he's a center for one, and he took the majority of his shots at the rim. But since we're all into TS%, then it's funny Wade is getting hated on for a .505 TS%, but we disregard LeBron's .529 TS%? And since Gasol matters, then how about the following TS percentages for the following guys:

Allen: 72% TS%
Battier: 69% TS%
Miller: 84% TS%

I honestly don't know what anyone is trying to prove here, that Miami wasn't a superteam in 2013? They were, irrespective of how they played in the playoffs. It's like saying the Lakers didn't have a superteam in 2004 because of how Payton or Malone played in the playoffs.

[1987_Lakers]

Awful efficiency? Who uses TS% for a player who didn't even attempt a three pointer for the entire series? Wade actually shot 48% for that series. Not to mention, it disregards his play in the game 7 where he went 23/10/1/1/2 on 11-21 (52%).

He was still playing with and against players who were shooting 3's. That puts him at a disadvantage.

[1987_Lakers]

Allen: 72% TS%
Battier: 69% TS%
Miller: 84% TS%

I honestly don't know what anyone is trying to prove here, that Miami wasn't a superteam in 2013? They were, irrespective of how they played in the playoffs. It's like saying the Lakers didn't have a superteam in 2004 because of how Payton or Malone played in the playoffs.

You have convinced me. 16 ppg playoff Wade, past prime Ray Allen, Shane Battier, & Mike "always injured" Miller makes them a superteam.

:oldlol:

[RRR3]

How do you determine it's "awful efficiency" when Wade didn't even take a three pointer. TS% is irrelevant if a player doesn't shoot threes. For the series, he shot 48% from the field and 77% from the line. What's so putrid about that?

It doesn't surprise me that Gasol had higher efficiency, he's a center for one, and he took the majority of his shots at the rim. But since we're all into TS%, then it's funny Wade is getting hated on for a .505 TS%, but we disregard LeBron's .529 TS%? And since Gasol matters, then how about the following TS percentages for the following guys:

Allen: 72% TS%
Battier: 69% TS%
Miller: 84% TS%

I honestly don't know what anyone is trying to prove here, that Miami wasn't a superteam in 2013? They were, irrespective of how they played in the playoffs. It's like saying the Lakers didn't have a superteam in 2004 because of how Payton or Malone played in the playoffs.
:facepalm

Holy shit. I can’t even respond to this it’s so ignorant.


As for LeBron he didn’t have a particularly great 2013 finals either, I don’t think anyone will list that as one of his best performances. He was phenomenal in the last two games though.

[RRR3]

Russell Westbrook would be efficient if he didn’t shoot 3s-HoopsNy

[HoopsNY]

Is TS% supposed to stop being a good measure of efficiency when you don’t take 3s? :lol. 23 points on 21 shots is absolutely not good either, you’re really not helping your case here. Again no one denied Wade had a really good regular season but he was injured in the playoffs and played poorly.

That's bogus. Who made up that rule? So because someone shot near 80% from the free throw line and 48% from the field in say, the 1950s-1980s, but didn't take any threes, then it means their efficiency sucks? That's nonsense.

Now 23 points sucks? You're beginning to sound like 3ball when describing Pippen. Wade's 20 PPG in this series is more than SAS' leading scorer (Duncan - 19 PPG), and in game 7, Duncan scored 24/12 points on 44% whereas Wade scored 23/10 on 52%, but Wade is somehow garbage?

These are the exact arguments 3ball makes when trying to discredit Pippen.

[RRR3]

That's bogus. Who made up that rule? So because someone shot near 80% from the free throw line and 48% from the field in say, the 1950s-1980s, but didn't take any threes, then it means their efficiency sucks? That's nonsense.

Now 23 points sucks? You're beginning to sound like 3ball when describing Pippen. Wade's 20 PPG in this series is more than SAS' leading scorer (Duncan - 19 PPG), and in game 7, Duncan scored 24/12 points on 44% whereas Wade scored 23/10 on 52%, but Wade is somehow garbage?

These are the exact arguments 3ball makes when trying to discredit Pippen.
I don’t know what the average TS% was in 1980. 50.5 TS% would be very good efficiency for a perimeter player in some eras. That’s why you compare based on eras. It’s definitely not a good efficiency for someone in 2013 though. 23 points on 21 shots is not impressive in 2013, yes. Unless you think Wade was a Pippen level defender in 2013, not sure how they’re comparable. Wade wasn’t garbage in 2013 he was quite good, but he was injured in the playoffs and it caused him to play poorly. No one is blaming him for being injured it’s just what happened.

[SouBeachTalents]

How do you determine it's "awful efficiency" when Wade didn't even take a three pointer. TS% is irrelevant if a player doesn't shoot threes. For the series, he shot 48% from the field and 77% from the line. What's so putrid about that?

It doesn't surprise me that Gasol had higher efficiency, he's a center for one, and he took the majority of his shots at the rim. But since we're all into TS%, then it's funny Wade is getting hated on for a .505 TS%, but we disregard LeBron's .529 TS%? And since Gasol matters, then how about the following TS percentages for the following guys:

Allen: 72% TS%
Battier: 69% TS%
Miller: 84% TS%

I honestly don't know what anyone is trying to prove here, that Miami wasn't a superteam in 2013? They were, irrespective of how they played in the playoffs. It's like saying the Lakers didn't have a superteam in 2004 because of how Payton or Malone played in the playoffs.
Huh? Bruh, you quoted my post. I didn't say "awful" efficiency, I said poor efficiency, which is an apt description for a player shooting sub 51%TS for a series.

Miami was a clear superteam when they thugged the league in the regular season and Wade made All-NBA. But in the playoffs, where he and Bosh really struggled for most of that title run? There's just no example in basketball history where a team who's 2nd best player averaged 16 ppg in the playoffs would EVER get the superteam label, regardless of what transpired in the regular season :lol

[HoopsNY]

Insinuating LeBron and Kobe played at a similar level versus OKC in 2012 is quite frankly insulting to anyone who was paying attention at the time.

What are you talking about? I didn't say that. Go back to my OP. I said a formation of a super-team should be factored in. And when you factor in that Kobe was on the last laps of his prime, and not in his peak, whereas LeBron was, it gives you a greater context. This doesn't in any way mean Kobe played as good or better than LeBron did in 2012, he didn't.

[RRR3]

Huh? Bruh, you quoted my post. I didn't say "awful" efficiency, I said poor efficiency, which is an apt description for a player shooting sub 51%TS for a series.

Miami was a clear superteam when they thugged the league in the regular season and Wade made All-NBA. But in the playoffs, where he and Bosh really struggled for most of that title run? There's just no example in basketball history where a team who's 2nd best player averaged 16 ppg in the playoffs would EVER get the superteam label, regardless of what transpired in the regular season :lol
LeBron has to win with his second option averaging 8 PPG or he sucks.

[RRR3]

What are you talking about? I didn't say that. Go back to my OP. I said a formation of a super-team should be factored in. And when you factor in that Kobe was on the last laps of his prime, and not in his peak, whereas LeBron was, it gives you a greater context. This doesn't in any way mean Kobe played as good or better than LeBron did in 2012, he didn't.
Kobe had two all-nba level players on his team in 2012 lol. The fact that you can’t see even comparing them that year is insane is crazy.

[1987_Lakers]

I still say that 2013 Miami team was the best team LeBron ever played on. They had everything. The addition of Ray Allen & Birdman made them even more dominant than the year before, they just lost some serious steam when the playoffs approached due to Wade's injury. Even Bosh struggled with an ankle injury at one point I believe.

[RRR3]

I still say that 2013 Miami team was the best team LeBron ever played on. They had everything. The addition of Ray Allen & Birdman made them even more dominant than the year before, they just lost some serious steam when the playoffs approached due to Wade's injury. Even Bosh struggled with a ankle injury at one point I believe.
Yeah they would have steamrolled the playoffs if Wade was healthy. But he wasn’t. No one besides an absolutely insane LeBron stan would deny Wade was still a beast when healthy in 2013. He was absolutely a shell of himself in that playoffs though, his knee was constantly getting worked on.

[hiphopanonymous]

Kobe's got a greater work ethic, greater skill due to aforementioned work ethic, and a greater will to win mixed of course with his accolades to back it all up.

LeBron's got greater longevity, and all-around talent/ability mixed of course with his own accolades to back it all up.

If he breaks Kareem's scoring record he'll likely be rated higher all-time by most but it's way closer than most people think and if you as a fan favor the strengths Kobe had than of course Kobe should be put on top on those people's lists. Few players in NBA history had Kobe's will to win, work ethic, or skill. Very few. MJ and ...? The list is short for that recipe.

[kawhileonard2]

A case?

There was never a case

The general consensus has always been Kobe > Lebron

Agreed!

[kawhileonard2]

Yeah they would have steamrolled the playoffs if Wade was healthy. But he wasn’t. No one besides an absolutely insane LeBron stan would deny Wade was still a beast when healthy in 2013. He was absolutely a shell of himself in that playoffs though, his knee was constantly getting worked on.

Wade was healthy.

[RRR3]

Kobe's got a greater work ethic, greater skill due to aforementioned work ethic, and a greater will to win mixed of course with his accolades to back it all up.

LeBron's got greater longevity, and all-around talent/ability mixed of course with his own accolades to back it all up.

If he breaks Kareem's scoring record he'll likely be rated higher all-time by most but it's way closer than most people think and if you as a fan favor the strengths Kobe had than of course Kobe should be put on top on those people's lists. Few players in NBA history had Kobe's will to win, work ethic, or skill. Very few. MJ and ...? The list is short for that recipe.
Kobe has a greater work ethic based on what? ESPN?

A greater will to win based on performing significantly worse in elimination games? Interesting.

[Johnny32]

I still say that 2013 Miami team was the best team LeBron ever played on. They had everything. The addition of Ray Allen & Birdman made them even more dominant than the year before, they just lost some serious steam when the playoffs approached due to Wade's injury. Even Bosh struggled with an ankle injury at one point I believe.

they started chasing that stupid reg season win streak record and it almost cost em a championship.

[Johnny32]

Kobe's got a greater work ethic, greater skill due to aforementioned work ethic, and a greater will to win mixed of course with his accolades to back it all up.

LeBron's got greater longevity, and all-around talent/ability mixed of course with his own accolades to back it all up.

If he breaks Kareem's scoring record he'll likely be rated higher all-time by most but it's way closer than most people think and if you as a fan favor the strengths Kobe had than of course Kobe should be put on top on those people's lists. Few players in NBA history had Kobe's will to win, work ethic, or skill. Very few. MJ and ...? The list is short for that recipe.

hurrr, cobi greater at things we can't measure cuz my childhood memories.

[HoopsNY]

You have convinced me. 16 ppg playoff Wade, past prime Ray Allen, Shane Battier, & Mike "always injured" Miller makes them a superteam.

:oldlol:

That wasn't why I mentioned it. I mentioned it because he's focusing on TS% when it suits him but fails to mention everyone else.

[RRR3]

That wasn't why I mentioned it. I mentioned it because he's focusing on TS% when it suits him but fails to mention everyone else.
Battier played great in the finals anyone will tell you that. He was also a low volume role player. What’s your point?

[1987_Lakers]

That wasn't why I mentioned it. I mentioned it because he's focusing on TS% when it suits him but fails to mention everyone else.

Yes, but Battier & and Mike Miller were not taking a bunch of shots. If they had those TS% numbers while dropping 25 points a night then it would be a different story.

[RRR3]

Again you have to concede Kobe had a superteam in 2009 and 2010 if LeBron’s 2013 playoff run counts as having a superteam. Wade having a few good games in the finals doesn’t mean he wasn’t really poor for most of the playoffs. Again not his fault, he was hurt, but it still is relevant.

[Johnny32]

lol did hoopstard really post ts percentages of two role players avg 5 ppg haha.

[RRR3]

In the ECF in 2013, LeBron averaged 29 PPG on 60.9 TS%. Wade averaged 15.4 PPG on 49.6 TS%. That series went seven games, so very bizarre to claim “well Wade was a superstar when it counted in the 2013 playoffs”, since he almost lost them that series.

[HoopsNY]

He was still playing with and against players who were shooting 3's. That puts him at a disadvantage.

Right, but the point isn't about disadvantage. The point is that Wade was out there outplaying Parker (albeit an injured Parker), and scoring more than Duncan.

[1987_Lakers]

Right, but the point isn't about disadvantage. The point is that Wade was out there outplaying Parker (albeit an injured Parker), and scoring more than Duncan.

He was outplaying Parker because LeBron locked up Parker.

You could use the injury excuse on Parker (Grade 1 strain), but every time Chalmers was on Parker he was getting lit up.

[RRR3]

Right, but the point isn't about disadvantage. The point is that Wade was out there outplaying Parker (albeit an injured Parker), and scoring more than Duncan.
Parker was being guarded by peak LeBron. I’m not sure why him scoring less than 2 PPG more than Duncan on much worse efficiency is supposed to be impressive either.

[Johnny32]

someone tell hooptard gasol was better than anyone on orl in the 09 finals.

hurrr, super team.

[MadDog]

Yeah, the guy hyping up a 20/4/5 on 51%TS series as a "great" Finals is definitely interested in objective arguments :lol

Hyping? :oldlol: 20/5/4 on a 48% clip and good defense is solid. Especially for a number two. Wade attempted zero threes that series fyi (not a typo), so TS is useless here. In the regular-season, Wade averaged 21/5/5 on a 52% clip -- good for AS recognition. And among SGs, he had the second highest impact (RPM).

Keep downplaying Wade though lol

[Bawkish]

Huh? Bruh, you quoted my post. I didn't say "awful" efficiency, I said poor efficiency, which is an apt description for a player shooting sub 51%TS for a series.

Miami was a clear superteam when they thugged the league in the regular season and Wade made All-NBA. But in the playoffs, where he and Bosh really struggled for most of that title run? There's just no example in basketball history where a team who's 2nd best player averaged 16 ppg in the playoffs would EVER get the superteam label, regardless of what transpired in the regular season :lol

so by your definition, 1996 Bulls was not a superteam?

[Atlantis]

It's hard to imagine prime Kobe playing against any guard or forward in any generation and seriously think, Kobe is clearly a worse basketball player than that other guy.

[RRR3]

It's hard to imagine prime Kobe playing against any guard or forward in any generation and seriously think, Kobe is clearly a worse basketball player than that other guy.
It was pretty easy to imagine whenever he played LeBron.

[kawhileonard2]

Again you have to concede Kobe had a superteam in 2009 and 2010 if LeBron’s 2013 playoff run counts as having a superteam. Wade having a few good games in the finals doesn’t mean he wasn’t really poor for most of the playoffs. Again not his fault, he was hurt, but it still is relevant.

How so? Lebron joined someone who won a title as the man. Lakers was Kobe’s team.

[Johnny32]

It's hard to imagine prime Kobe playing against any guard or forward in any generation and seriously think, Kobe is clearly a worse basketball player than that other guy.

you clearly didn't watch kobe vs wade on christmas lol.

[Atlantis]

you clearly didn't watch kobe vs wade on christmas lol.

That's one game ..

[HoopsNY]

Yes, but Battier & and Mike Miller were not taking a bunch of shots. If they had those TS% numbers while dropping 25 points a night then it would be a different story.

It depends on how you look at it and how each player stepped up in different parts of the series.

In addition to whatever Wade, Bosh, and LeBron did, Battier and Miller's performance was key, one because defensively, Battier was excellent, but also because they combined for 25 made FGs, with 23 of them being three pointers. In fact, they shot 23-49 (47%) from three.

Allen put up 11 PPG on 72% TS% for the series. I noticed you left him out.

Battier in the game 7? 18/4/1/1 on 6-8 (all threes).

I only mentioned these guys before because Southbeach wanted to bring in whatever Gasol did, as if somehow negates how good of a team Miami was in 2013, and ignoring the context of TS% (giving greater weight to three point fgs).

And it's convenient when you guys consistently mock 3ball for bringing up whatever Pippen did (or didn't do), by mentioning what the opposing team's #1 or #2 did. I mean, we have RRR3 here mentioning Wade's performance in game 7 being somewhat minuscule despite:

Wade game 7: 23/10/1 on 52%
Duncan game 7: 24/12/2 on 44%

[HoopsNY]

Again you have to concede Kobe had a superteam in 2009 and 2010 if LeBron’s 2013 playoff run counts as having a superteam. Wade having a few good games in the finals doesn’t mean he wasn’t really poor for most of the playoffs. Again not his fault, he was hurt, but it still is relevant.

That's revisionist history. You don't wait for the results to then deem how a team is to be judged. They're judged that way going into a season, regardless of what the outcome may be. It's absolutely absurd to think the Lakers in '09 or '10 were some kind of super-team.

And not sure why the playoffs is being discussed here as a whole. Actually, I don't even know why we're talking about 2013. I stopped at 2012 because the methodology of my analysis was to focus on teams they both faced during what was mostly their peak/prime years.

As I said before, I'm doing a disservice to Kobe by using 2012 since he was 33 and not in his peak, especially given the mountain of injuries he had already dealt with to that point. And despite that, he put up solid numbers against OKC.

[RRR3]

Ah yes the 13 and 22 Lakers were superteams because people said so before the year started. **** what actually happened. OopsNY with another retarded take. LeBron broke the poor lil guys brain. “Sob sob s-stop c-comparing him to my childhood idol Mikey!” Kobe being solid against OKC in 2012 playoffs is the definition of revisionist history btw, you stupid biased stan.

[RRR3]

That's one game ..
LeBron beat Kobe almost every time they played lol

[RRR3]

Cue the PoopsNY meltdown where he insists he’s unbiased because he doesn’t troll :lol

[eliteballer]

Do not compare Kobe to juicer LeBron.

[eliteballer]

Again you have to concede Kobe had a superteam in 2009 and 2010 if LeBron’s 2013 playoff run counts as having a superteam. Wade having a few good games in the finals doesn’t mean he wasn’t really poor for most of the playoffs. Again not his fault, he was hurt, but it still is relevant.

Lol at you trying to compare 30+year old Kobe playing on one knee to 26-29 year old Roider on a Super Team.

[RRR3]

Lol at you trying to compare 30+year old Kobe playing on one knee to 26-29 year old Roider on a Super Team.
You have been talking to yourself for years in the sneaker subforum.

[Axe]

You have been talking to yourself for years in the sneaker subforum.
:milton

[kawhileonard2]

Do not compare Kobe to juicer LeBron.

Agreed!

[sdot_thadon]

Looks good from afar but up close Kobe doesn't have a great case imo.

[RRR3]

Looks good from afar but up close Kobe doesn't have a great case imo.
Yeah because he’s purposefully ignoring advanced stats, impact stats and modern efficiency stats, as well as context.

[eliteballer]

Nobody's ignoring LeBron's steroid usage.

[RRR3]

Nobody's ignoring LeBron's steroid usage.
Everyone ignores you in the sneaker forum though. Is talking to yourself fun?

[HoopsNY]

Ah yes the 13 and 22 Lakers were superteams because people said so before the year started. **** what actually happened. OopsNY with another retarded take. LeBron broke the poor lil guys brain. “Sob sob s-stop c-comparing him to my childhood idol Mikey!” Kobe being solid against OKC in 2012 playoffs is the definition of revisionist history btw, you stupid biased stan.

I didn't say anything about the '22 Lakers. You need help. Where did I bring in Jordan into this? My childhood idol was Hakeem you idiot. Furthermore, I never made this topic about the 2013 Heat. So focusing on that is retarded.

So let me guess, Wade underperformed during the first three rounds, which removes his ability and possibility of contribution, but then he did contribute well in the finals (20/4/5/2 on 48%), but that doesn't count because of the first three rounds? This makes no sense. This is why it's revisionist.

And yes, I get the criticisms against Kobe for that series (game 2 specifically), so what? Look at the 6 year sample size I gave and tell me LeBron doesn't have similar criticisms. Obviously 2012 LeBron (if we look at the entire body of work) was far better than 2012 Kobe, that wasn't my point.

Bro seriously, stop responding to me. You get too upset over basketball discussions, and you're not even properly registering what the other person is saying. You can put me on ignore. Why don't you?

[HoopsNY]

Yeah because he’s purposefully ignoring advanced stats, impact stats and modern efficiency stats, as well as context.

Impact stats? I posted some of them specifically from the 2009 playoffs, and Maddog mentioned them as well. If anyone's doing any ignoring, it's you. And again, why are you so mad? I literally said given that stretch, I still give LeBron the edge over Kobe, though the gap isn't as wide. Why are you so mad about this? Get off my dick you idiot.

[FKAri]

A case can be made. Just like a case of Lebron over Jordan can be made. I just don't find either to be convincing.

A better argument would be to take Kobe over Lebron based on a team's makeup. That's certainly possible.

[HoopsNY]

A case can be made. Just like a case of Lebron over Jordan can be made. I just don't find either to be convincing.

A better argument would be to take Kobe over Lebron based on a team's makeup. That's certainly possible.

That's a fair point and I suppose the same could be said for any ATG player. And like you, I also don't agree that the case is stronger for Kobe given the time frame I mentioned, though I can reason why some people may opt for it given they were both in their peaks.

[NBAGOAT]

I didn't say anything about the '22 Lakers. You need help. Where did I bring in Jordan into this? My childhood idol was Hakeem you idiot. Furthermore, I never made this topic about the 2013 Heat. So focusing on that is retarded.

So let me guess, Wade underperformed during the first three rounds, which removes his ability and possibility of contribution, but then he did contribute well in the finals (20/4/5/2 on 48%), but that doesn't count because of the first three rounds? This makes no sense. This is why it's revisionist.

And yes, I get the criticisms against Kobe for that series (game 2 specifically), so what? Look at the 6 year sample size I gave and tell me LeBron doesn't have similar criticisms. Obviously 2012 LeBron (if we look at the entire body of work) was far better than 2012 Kobe, that wasn't my point.

Bro seriously, stop responding to me. You get too upset over basketball discussions, and you're not even properly registering what the other person is saying. You can put me on ignore. Why don't you?

well wade put up numbers in the 13 finals but he still wasnt good. I stole the info from realgm and have replied to 3ball with it and will try to find it later if I can but basically he was a net negative on offense. The offense was better with just lebron and no wade on the court than lebron/wade and significantly so. It's not because of the fit issue because wade was very good in 12, his knees just meant he had declined.

as for your premise using just the box score actually underrates bron quite a bit and you used it inaccurately too. just use ts% instead of fg/3pt/ft, lebron is clearly more efficient there. His assists undervalue his impact as a playmaker(why he gets called best playmaker in the league during his prime "only" averaging 7/8 apg). Kind of an eye test thing but we've seen it true for other guys too. apg undervalues jokic as a playmaker currently. At least these years, there is also a huge defensive gap between him and kobe.

To illustrate epm(top 3 impact metric according to nba front offices) during the regular season going back as far as their primes starting in 2013. This survey goes over that https://*********.com/lists/advanced-stats-nba-real-plus-minus-rapm-win-shares-analytics/. Also it was the best at predicting team record based on assigning wins to players based on their previous year so it's good at prediction. Link here https://dunksandthrees.com/blog/metric-comparison

Kobe: Overall, Off, Def
13: 3.5, 4.5, -1.0
12: 2.4, 2.9, -0.6
11: 3.0, 4.3, -1.3
10: 3.6, 3.3, 0.4
09: 5.2, 5.0, 0.2
08: 5.6, 5.0, 0.6

Lebron: Overall, Off, Def
13: 9.0, 7.9, 1.1
12: 7.9, 6.6, 1.3
11: 6.9, 5.3, 1.6
10: 10.0, 8.3, 1.6
09: 10.3, 7.9, 2.4
08: 7.5, 6.7, 0.8

There is no evidence from the box score or eye test that kobe elevates his game in the playoffs much more than bron does but even if you think he does they are to be generous equal offensive players in the playoffs and bron is a greatly superior defender. You could argue kobe becomes an elite defender in the playoffs these years but I havent seen kobe fans argue that or any evidence for it. Bron's defense was great to elite these years however in the playoffs pretty much every one besides 08.

[NBAGOAT]

ah i found the stats for wade. Miami was indeed a great team in 13 but that was during the regular season when wade hadnt fallen off yet. You usually are to be able to win 66 games no matter how good your top star is. The playoffs are a completely diffent story, it becomes lowkey a weak cast for a title team because of how bad wade was. Just bron bosh and an average sg and I wouldnt be claiming this btw. Lebron/bosh on the court together put up like a 12 netrtg in 14 and this was post peak lebron coasting on defense.

2013 Heat ORtg with LeBron on court (960 minutes): 109.9
2013 Heat ORtg with LeBron and Wade on court (678 minutes): 105.0
2013 Heat ORtg with LeBron on, Wade off (282 minutes): 121.8

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bucks with LeBron on court 115.1
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bucks with LeBron On, Wade off: 116.8

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bulls with LeBron on court: 110.1
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bulls with LeBron on court, Wade off: 118.2

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Pacers with LeBron ON court: 110.6
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Pacers with LeBron on court, Wade off: 121.2

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Spurs with LeBron on court: 106.7
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Spurs with LeBron on court, Wade off: 131.3

[RRR3]

I was gonna respond to PoopsNy’s meltdown but NBAGOAT did it for me. Thanks bud. Let’s see him squirm out of this one.

[Full Court]

It's a tossup. Both are fringe top ten.

[RRR3]

Full Meltdown.

[8Ball]

After having diligently read through 12 pages of this thread, I overwhelmingly declare there was no case presented that shows Kobe > LeBron.

Not even Kobe stans in LA will make that case. Go to any Laker forum. They all say Bran.

Case closed.

[8Ball]

HoopsNY threw all credibility he had out the window when he made this thread and tried to 3ball it by spam posting nonsense.

[Full Court]

Lol at these Bronies trying to argue that Lebron is number 9 instead of number 10. :roll:

Who cares?

[RRR3]

HoopsNY threw all credibility he had out the window when he made this thread and tried to 3ball it by spam posting nonsense.
Yep. For a MJ fan with good takes, see Phoenix.

[HoopsNY]

ah i found the stats for wade. Miami was indeed a great team in 13 but that was during the regular season when wade hadnt fallen off yet. You usually are to be able to win 66 games no matter how good your top star is. The playoffs are a completely diffent story, it becomes lowkey a weak cast for a title team because of how bad wade was. Just bron bosh and an average sg and I wouldnt be claiming this btw. Lebron/bosh on the court together put up like a 12 netrtg in 14 and this was post peak lebron coasting on defense.

2013 Heat ORtg with LeBron on court (960 minutes): 109.9
2013 Heat ORtg with LeBron and Wade on court (678 minutes): 105.0
2013 Heat ORtg with LeBron on, Wade off (282 minutes): 121.8

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bucks with LeBron on court 115.1
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bucks with LeBron On, Wade off: 116.8

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bulls with LeBron on court: 110.1
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bulls with LeBron on court, Wade off: 118.2

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Pacers with LeBron ON court: 110.6
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Pacers with LeBron on court, Wade off: 121.2

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Spurs with LeBron on court: 106.7
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Spurs with LeBron on court, Wade off: 131.3

Nicely done. Having looked at what you've posted, it does appear to be the case that Wade's production was not as impactful as I originally had thought. Thank you for the insight and a hell of a lot better than what a dumbass like RRR3 brings to the table, which is essentially nothing.

The point still remains though, his team as a whole was still stronger than say Kobe's of 2012. That said, LeBron's 2012 trumps Kobe's 2012.

[HoopsNY]

well wade put up numbers in the 13 finals but he still wasnt good. I stole the info from realgm and have replied to 3ball with it and will try to find it later if I can but basically he was a net negative on offense. The offense was better with just lebron and no wade on the court than lebron/wade and significantly so. It's not because of the fit issue because wade was very good in 12, his knees just meant he had declined.

as for your premise using just the box score actually underrates bron quite a bit and you used it inaccurately too. just use ts% instead of fg/3pt/ft, lebron is clearly more efficient there. His assists undervalue his impact as a playmaker(why he gets called best playmaker in the league during his prime "only" averaging 7/8 apg). Kind of an eye test thing but we've seen it true for other guys too. apg undervalues jokic as a playmaker currently. At least these years, there is also a huge defensive gap between him and kobe.

To illustrate epm(top 3 impact metric according to nba front offices) during the regular season going back as far as their primes starting in 2013. This survey goes over that https://*********.com/lists/advanced-stats-nba-real-plus-minus-rapm-win-shares-analytics/. Also it was the best at predicting team record based on assigning wins to players based on their previous year so it's good at prediction. Link here https://dunksandthrees.com/blog/metric-comparison

Kobe: Overall, Off, Def
13: 3.5, 4.5, -1.0
12: 2.4, 2.9, -0.6
11: 3.0, 4.3, -1.3
10: 3.6, 3.3, 0.4
09: 5.2, 5.0, 0.2
08: 5.6, 5.0, 0.6

Lebron: Overall, Off, Def
13: 9.0, 7.9, 1.1
12: 7.9, 6.6, 1.3
11: 6.9, 5.3, 1.6
10: 10.0, 8.3, 1.6
09: 10.3, 7.9, 2.4
08: 7.5, 6.7, 0.8

There is no evidence from the box score or eye test that kobe elevates his game in the playoffs much more than bron does but even if you think he does they are to be generous equal offensive players in the playoffs and bron is a greatly superior defender. You could argue kobe becomes an elite defender in the playoffs these years but I havent seen kobe fans argue that or any evidence for it. Bron's defense was great to elite these years however in the playoffs pretty much every one besides 08.

You're not wrong in what you're saying, but impact is funny even when looking at impact metrics; for example, look at the 5 series in question and Kobe and LeBron's +/- vs the same teams. LeBron has Kobe in 2008 but Kobe has LeBron in 2009 and 2010, and then it's almost a draw (LeBron -36, Kobe -37) in 2011, and then LeBron is better in 2012.

That's basically a 2-2-1 draw, which validates what I'm saying. If we look at it from its entirety, then the two are closer than what meets the eye.

[HoopsNY]

Yep. For a MJ fan with good takes, see Phoenix.

You're still here? You could easily not read my posts, but for some reason you're on my dick at midnight.

[MadDog]

You're still here? You could easily not read my posts, but for some reason you're on my dick at midnight.

Why does that guy attack you in every thread? lol the type of poster who insults you cuz of a disagreement. Weaksauce. I remember past Pippen & Jordan debates we had. You and I don't agree on a lot of shit, but I never went at you personally :oldlol:

[1987_Lakers]

ah i found the stats for wade. Miami was indeed a great team in 13 but that was during the regular season when wade hadnt fallen off yet. You usually are to be able to win 66 games no matter how good your top star is. The playoffs are a completely diffent story, it becomes lowkey a weak cast for a title team because of how bad wade was. Just bron bosh and an average sg and I wouldnt be claiming this btw. Lebron/bosh on the court together put up like a 12 netrtg in 14 and this was post peak lebron coasting on defense.

2013 Heat ORtg with LeBron on court (960 minutes): 109.9
2013 Heat ORtg with LeBron and Wade on court (678 minutes): 105.0
2013 Heat ORtg with LeBron on, Wade off (282 minutes): 121.8

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bucks with LeBron on court 115.1
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bucks with LeBron On, Wade off: 116.8

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bulls with LeBron on court: 110.1
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Bulls with LeBron on court, Wade off: 118.2

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Pacers with LeBron ON court: 110.6
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Pacers with LeBron on court, Wade off: 121.2

2013 Heat ORtg vs. Spurs with LeBron on court: 106.7
2013 Heat ORtg vs. Spurs with LeBron on court, Wade off: 131.3

This is some good stuff. I alluded to it earlier in this thread I believe. LeBron was carrying Miami in some games in those playoffs, especially the Indiana series.

[MadDog]

Would be careful using on/off. Anthony Davis had a better on/off than LeBron in the 2020 playoffs. LeBron's jockstrap fans are never consistent though :oldlol: On/off is also more influenced by teamplay than RPM/RAPM are -- things 2013 Wade faired well in.

[RRR3]

You're not wrong in what you're saying, but impact is funny even when looking at impact metrics; for example, look at the 5 series in question and Kobe and LeBron's +/- vs the same teams. LeBron has Kobe in 2008 but Kobe has LeBron in 2009 and 2010, and then it's almost a draw (LeBron -36, Kobe -37) in 2011, and then LeBron is better in 2012.

That's basically a 2-2-1 draw, which validates what I'm saying. If we look at it from its entirety, then the two are closer than what meets the eye.
You have been told already that impact data needs a greater sample size to be remotely meaningful. If your conclusion from such limited data is that LeBron was better than Kobe in 2008 but worse in 09 and 10, you're being extremely ignorant. Even a lot of LeBron friends will concede Kobe was better in 2008, and I am one of them, so I'm not sure why you even used that year. 2009 is the year LeBron became the best player in the NBA.

[HoopsNY]

Why does that guy attack you in every thread? lol the type of poster who insults you cuz of a disagreement. Weaksauce. I remember past Pippen & Jordan debates we had. You and I don't agree on a lot of shit, but I never went at you personally :oldlol:

I don't get it either. Like, I'm literally here saying LEBRON > KOBE EVEN IF WE CONSIDER A, B, C...but because I said "I believe the gap is closer than I originally believed" or "I can understand why someone might say Kobe > LeBron given the sample I provided...." this guy decides to throw a hissy fit.

And he does it in every thread and blatantly lies about me, claiming I said this and that when it's none of the sort. It's pretty creepy how he tries so hard to follow every word I say, too.

[RRR3]

Would be careful using on/off. Anthony Davis had a better on/off than LeBron in the 2020 playoffs. LeBron's jockstrap fans are never consistent though :oldlol: On/off is also more influenced by teamplay than RPM/RAPM are -- things 2013 Wade faired well in.
You guys are the ones who started bringing up on/off data from sample sizes, we are allowed to respond in kind, even if you don't like the results we post.

[HoopsNY]

This is some good stuff. I alluded to it earlier in this thread I believe. LeBron was carrying Miami in some games in those playoffs, especially the Indiana series.

I didn't realize it was for the entire playoffs. But still, the +/- of both guys in the finals is pretty telling and how Miami played once he went to the bench. At the same time though, I don't think his performance was "bad".

[1987_Lakers]

Would be careful using on/off. Anthony Davis had a better on/off than LeBron in the 2020 playoffs. LeBron's jockstrap fans are never consistent though :oldlol: On/off is also more influenced by teamplay than RPM/RAPM are -- things 2013 Wade faired well in.

AD was at +184. LeBron was at +164. Not a significant difference, and LeBron was clearly the better player in the Finals.

For the '13 playoffs LeBron was at +132, Wade was at +37. That is a significant difference.

[RRR3]

I don't get it either. Like, I'm literally here saying LEBRON > KOBE EVEN IF WE CONSIDER A, B, C...but because I said "I believe the gap is closer than I originally believed" or "I can understand why someone might say Kobe > LeBron given the sample I provided...." this guy decides to throw a hissy fit.

And he does it in every thread and blatantly lies about me, claiming I said this and that when it's none of the sort. It's pretty creepy how he tries so hard to follow every word I say, too.
Pretending you didn't know what you were doing creating this thread is pretty funny. The only people siding with you are notorious LeBron haters, just a coincidence I'm sure though.

[MadDog]

You guys are the ones who started bringing up on/off data from sample sizes, we are allowed to respond in kind, even if you don't like the results we post.

Cool, but there are better impact stats than on/off lol. I already posted them ITT. By the superior data, Wade was great as a #2.

[eliteballer]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmB6YCUzgMU

[MadDog]

AD was at +184. LeBron was at +164. Not a significant difference, and LeBron was clearly the better player in the Finals.

For the '13 playoffs LeBron was at +132, Wade was at +37. That is a significant difference.

That's fair. By the numbers though would you say AD had a better playoff run than LeBron? :confusedshrug:

[RRR3]

Cool, but there are better impact stats than on/off lol. I already posted them ITT. By the superior data, Wade was great as a #2.
What data shows Wade was great as a number two in the 2013 playoffs? :lol

No one denies he was great in the 2013 regular season and throughout 2012

[RRR3]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmB6YCUzgMU
How's talking to yourself in the sneaker forum going?

[HoopsNY]

You have been told already that impact data needs a greater sample size to be remotely meaningful. If your conclusion from such limited data is that LeBron was better than Kobe in 2008 but worse in 09 and 10, you're being extremely ignorant. Even a lot of LeBron friends will concede Kobe was better in 2008, and I am one of them, so I'm not sure why you even used that year. 2009 is the year LeBron became the best player in the NBA.

I'm not using the entire regular season and playoffs. I'm isolating the data because it's one of the rare times we can actually source two players' peak years against the same competition in the same years despite them playing in different conferences.

I get that you can make a counter argument given a bigger sample. I'm not disagreeing with that. What I'm also saying is that when you use the same years against the same teams, the discussion becomes pretty interesting. And yes, I agree that 2008 Kobe was the better player, but against the same team, LeBron posted a better +/-. Kobe has him in 2009 and 2010, though.

There are arguments that you can trade back and forth is the point. And all of this while the data I'm using includes Kobe riddled with injuries and at ages 32 and 33. By 2012, LeBron was only 27 and hadn't any major surgeries (IIRC). Hence me saying that this isn't even fair (considering 2001 was easily one of Kobe's best years and one could argue he was in his peak since then).

And after all of the back and forth, I come to the conclusion that while I see the potential of putting him ahead of LeBron, I don't agree. Though I do agree that the gap is now smaller than I originally had it.

[RRR3]

I'm not using the entire regular season and playoffs. I'm isolating the data because it's one of the rare times we can actually source two players' peak years against the same competition in the same years despite them playing in different conferences.

I get that you can make a counter argument given a bigger sample. I'm not disagreeing with that. What I'm also saying is that when you use the same years against the same teams, the discussion becomes pretty interesting. And yes, I agree that 2008 Kobe was the better player, but against the same team, LeBron posted a better +/-. Kobe has him in 2009 and 2010, though.

There are arguments that you can trade back and forth is the point. And all of this while the data I'm using includes Kobe riddled with injuries and at ages 32 and 33. By 2012, LeBron was only 27 and hadn't any major surgeries (IIRC). Hence me saying that this isn't even fair (considering 2001 was easily one of Kobe's best years and one could argue he was in his peak since then).

And after all of the back and forth, I come to the conclusion that while I see the potential of putting him ahead of LeBron, I don't agree. Though I do agree that the gap is now smaller than I originally had it.
That should tell you something.

[1987_Lakers]

That's fair. By the numbers though would you say AD had a better playoff run than LeBron? :confusedshrug:

I was never a huge fan of plus & minus, but when a teammate has a plus/minus difference of almost +100, like LeBron did over Wade, it's obvious just how more impactful LeBron was compared to Wade in 2013.

And it's not just plus/minus. NBAGoat showed data with ORTG how much better the offense operated whenever LeBron was on the court and when Wade was on the bench.

[HoopsNY]

Pretending you didn't know what you were doing creating this thread is pretty funny. The only people siding with you are notorious LeBron haters, just a coincidence I'm sure though.

I have no control over anyone. Furthermore, this thread has basically been a back and forth between you, me, Maddog, 1987, southbeach, and NBA Goat. Most of the haters on either side have been sparse.

The problem is, you're a LeBron stan who can't stand anyone disagreeing with you, and even providing an alternate perspective even with some kind of data is enough for your to unleash your venom like you're a Marvel box office weekend release.

I don't follow you around, why do you follow me around? You don't HAVE to click on my posts, read what I say, or respond, but you continuously choose to. If I'm so bad, hit the ignore button and keep it moving. I'll gladly converse with reasonable posters like 1987 and NBA GOAT.

[HoopsNY]

That should tell you something.

Yes, it tells me something, that we can trade views based on this or that. It's not written in stone here.

[RRR3]

I have no control over anyone. Furthermore, this thread has basically been a back and forth between you, me, Maddog, 1987, southbeach, and NBA Goat. Most of the haters on either side have been sparse.

The problem is, you're a LeBron stan who can't stand anyone disagreeing with you, and even providing an alternate perspective even with some kind of data is enough for your to unleash your venom like you're a Marvel box office weekend release.

I don't follow you around, why do you follow me around? You don't HAVE to click on my posts, read what I say, or respond, but you continuously choose to. If I'm so bad, hit the ignore button and keep it moving. I'll gladly converse with reasonable posters like 1987 and NBA GOAT.
Interesting everyone who's not a LeBron stan or a MJ or Kobe stan in this thread has disagreed with you, though. You can get away with calling me a LeBron stan but hard to say that about Fkari or NBAGOAT who have also told you you are wrong. Soubeach and stronglurk are LeBron fans but pretty unbiased ones and have both also told you that you were wrong. I don't follow you around, you made a thread and I responded and then I continued to respond after you did. If you don't want responses don't make threads.

[HoopsNY]

Interesting everyone who's not a LeBron stan or a MJ or Kobe stan in this thread has disagreed with you, though. You can get away with calling me a LeBron stan but hard to say that about Fkari or NBAGOAT who have also told you you are wrong. Soubeach and stronlurk are LeBron fans but pretty unbiased ones and have both also told you that you were wrong. I don't follow you around, you made a thread and I responded and then I continued to respond after you did. If you don't want responses don't make threads.

And I offered an intelligent (non abrasive) response to the both of them. In fact, I agreed with them both in some of what they said, go back and read it because you probably didn't due to how riled up you are over me, I mean damn.

I don't mind responses, but when they're filled with vitriol then I'll fire back. If you don't like the tone of my posts then question yourself why is it that you're the only one receiving it?

[RRR3]

And I offered an intelligent (non abrasive) response to the both of them. In fact, I agreed with them both in some of what they said, go back and read it because you probably didn't due to how riled up you are over me, I mean damn.

I don't mind responses, but when they're filled with vitriol then I'll fire back. If you don't like the tone of my posts then question yourself why is it that you're the only one receiving it?
I'm not questioning the "vitriol" I really don't care if you get mad at me :lol. You made a dumb agenda driven thread, I don't engage this way when people make legitimate threads. Go try making this thread on realgm (a non troll board) and see how you are responded to, I know for a fact you won't like it.

[MadDog]

What data shows Wade was great as a number two in the 2013 playoffs? :lol

No one denies he was great in the 2013 regular season and throughout 2012

RPM includes the playoffs. Adjusted for minutes, Wade was the second most impactful SG. Was also a net positive in RAPM despite playing mediocre in the postseason. lol but who cares about that? Miami played weak comp up until the finals -- where Wade showed up verse the Spurs.


I was never a huge fan of plus & minus, but when a teammate has a plus/minus difference of almost +100, like LeBron did over Wade, it's obvious just how more impactful LeBron was compared to Wade in 2013.

And it's not just plus/minus. NBAGoat showed data with ORTG how much better the offense operated whenever LeBron was on the court and when Wade was on the bench.

Don't think anyone serious put Wade over LeBron in 2013. Don't even think that was ever an argument. Davis' ORTG was also better than LeBron's -- and the team produced better when AD was on the court than when LeBron was.

[HoopsNY]

I'm not questioning the "vitriol" I really don't care if you get mad at me :lol. You made a dumb agenda driven thread, I don't engage this way when people make legitimate threads. Go try making this thread on realgm (a non troll board) and see how you are responded to, I know for a fact you won't like it.

Unfortunately your pea brain is too small to register what it is that I'm actually saying. I'm not on RealGM and don't care about RealGM. Am I supposed to be impressed here?

Yes, my agenda was clear and I made it clear from the get go, the gap is closer than I thought. Deal with it.

[MadDog]

Interesting everyone who's not a LeBron stan or a MJ or Kobe stan in this thread has disagreed with you, though. You can get away with calling me a LeBron stan but hard to say that about Fkari or NBAGOAT who have also told you you are wrong. Soubeach and stronglurk are LeBron fans but pretty unbiased ones and have both also told you that you were wrong. I don't follow you around, you made a thread and I responded and then I continued to respond after you did. If you don't want responses don't make threads.

You say that as if its a good thing. Calling yourself a stan is like admitting you're a cuck. Have some self respect dude lol

[RRR3]

RPM includes the playoffs. Adjusted for minutes, Wade was the second most impactful SG. Was also a net positive in RAPM despite playing mediocre in the postseason. lol but who cares about that? Miami played weak comp up until the finals -- where Wade showed up verse the Spurs.



Don't think anyone serious put Wade over LeBron in 2013. Don't even think that was ever an argument. Davis' ORTG was also better than LeBron's -- and the team produced better when AD was on the court than when LeBron was.
You have literally been given impact data that shows Wade was not helping the team in the 2013 playoffs lol. Again small sample size but that's my position not yours so...

[HoopsNY]

RPM includes the playoffs. Adjusted for minutes, Wade was the second most impactful SG. Was also a net positive in RAPM despite playing mediocre in the postseason. lol but who cares about that? Miami played weak comp up until the finals -- where Wade showed up verse the Spurs.



Don't think anyone serious put Wade over LeBron in 2013. Don't even think that was ever an argument. Davis' ORTG was also better than LeBron's -- and the team produced better when AD was on the court than when LeBron was.

LeBron/AD were a 1a/1b situation if you factor in AD's defense. I think that often gets left out of the conversation, especially when you saw how AD guarded Butler when he was switched onto him.

In addition, what guys like RRR3 don't get is that Miami being stacked the way they were, even in 2013, matters a lot given the conference they were in. It matters in terms of advancing through the playoffs and eventually winning the finals. This obviously will impact accolades and stat totals for someone like LeBron.

[RRR3]

You say that as if its a good thing. Admitting your a stan is like calling yourself a cuck. Have some self respect dude lol
It just means I'm more honest than you and OP, tbh. LeBron is my favorite player I'm not gonna deny it. It's pretty hard to find me saying anything about him that isn't reasonable when I'm not blatantly trolling, though. Unless of course you think saying stuff like LeBron being clearly better than Kobe in 2012 is unreasonable :lol

[MadDog]

You have literally been given impact data that shows Wade was not helping the team in the 2013 playoffs lol. Again small sample size but that's my position not yours so...

And I've given you impact data that shows Wade was great throughout 2013 -- which including the playoffs and finals.

[RRR3]

Unfortunately your pea brain is too small to register what it is that I'm actually saying. I'm not on RealGM and don't care about RealGM. Am I supposed to be impressed here?

Yes, my agenda was clear and I made it clear from the get go, the gap is closer than I thought. Deal with it.
I mean saying the gap was close in 2012 makes you lose any legitimacy, that was most people's point. I don't think it was close in year from 09 on, but 12 is just egregious unless you hate LeBron.

[RRR3]

And I've given you impact data that shows Wade was great throughout 2013 -- which including the playoffs and finals.
What data shows Wade was great in the 2013 playoffs? Did you read NBAGOAT's post or was it too painful for you?

[RRR3]

LeBron/AD were a 1a/1b situation if you factor in AD's defense. I think that often gets left out of the conversation, especially when you saw how AD guarded Butler when he was switched onto him.

In addition, what guys like RRR3 don't get is that Miami being stacked the way they were, even in 2013, matters a lot given the conference they were in. It matters in terms of advancing through the playoffs and eventually winning the finals. This obviously will impact accolades and stat totals for someone like LeBron.
They werent stacked in the 2013 playoffs, though. Wade being injured to the point he was made the supporting cast pretty meh, NBAGOAT literally told you that.

[HoopsNY]

I mean saying the gap was close in 2012 makes you lose any legitimacy, that was most people's point. I don't think it was close in year from 09 on, but 12 is just egregious unless you hate LeBron.

Good grief, I never said 2012 Kobe and 2012 LeBron are close. I merely posted 2012 because Kobe was still in his prime and they both faced the same team. And I've said it at least 3-4x on this thread, LeBron was better than Kobe in 2012. 2012 and 2013 were LeBron's best years and he was in his absolute peak. Kobe was on the decline and 33 years old.

Get a grip man. Stop saying I said this and that when I didn't.

[MadDog]

It just means I'm more honest than you and OP, tbh. LeBron is my favorite player I'm not gonna deny it. It's pretty hard to find me saying anything about him that isn't reasonable when I'm not blatantly trolling, though. Unless of course you think saying stuff like LeBron being clearly better than Kobe in 2012 is unreasonable :lol

All of that is reasonable. But a stan and fan are different things. Why would anyone sane admit they're a fanatical stalker :oldlol: And what "honesty" are you talking about? I don't hate LeBron. Just think his extreme fanboys are casuals. I also enjoy a good debate.

[RRR3]

Good grief, I never said 2012 Kobe and 2012 LeBron are close. I merely posted 2012 because Kobe was still in his prime and they both faced the same team. And I've said it at least 3-4x on this thread, LeBron was better than Kobe in 2012. 2012 and 2013 were LeBron's best years and he was in his absolute peak. Kobe was on the decline and 33 years old.

Get a grip man. Stop saying I said this and that when I didn't.
Then you shouldn't have included it and limited to 08-10. You would have received far less pushback.

[MadDog]

What data shows Wade was great in the 2013 playoffs? Did you read NBAGOAT's post or was it too painful for you?

Are you good? You do know RPM includes the playoffs and finals, right? Wade was also a plus in postseason RAPM.

[RRR3]

All of that is reasonable. But a stan and fan are different things. Why would anyone sane admit they're a fanatical stalker :oldlol: Also what honesty are you talking about? I don't hate LeBron. Just think his extreme fanboys are casuals. I also enjoy a good debate.
Since when does stan mean stalker? It just means superfan to me. I'm a huge fan of LeBron, I won't deny it. Coastalmarker is a Wilt stan and he has interesting posts a lot of the time, for instance.

[RRR3]

Are you good? You do know RPM includes the playoffs and finals, right? Wade was also a plus in postseason RAPM.
A slight plus, below the likes of Chris Copeland, Norris Cole, and Ryan Hollins. Do you think that reflects well on Wade? Again he was injured, so it's not a black mark on his career he would have almost certainly have played well if he was healthy.

[MadDog]

Since when does stan mean stalker? It just means superfan to me. I'm a huge fan of LeBron, I won't deny it. Coastalmarker is a Wilt stan and he has interesting posts a lot of the time, for instance.


Lol "stan" comes from the eminem song. That guy "stan" was a creepy and obsessed stalker.....

[HoopsNY]

Then you shouldn't have included it and limited to 08-10. You would have received far less pushback.

You're a special kind of stupid, aren't you. How many times do I have to say it? I specifically isolated the years where either player was in their peak/prime AND faced the SAME opponent. 2012 is a prime year for Kobe and a peak year for LeBron, and the years follow each other in succession. The context heavily favors LeBron (which I've said 1000x before), but I still included it since it matches the methodology, which is about as good as it would get for two rivals not named Magic and Larry.

I keep repeating myself over and over but a butt hurt stan will always be a butt hurt stan.

[RRR3]

Lol "stan" comes from the eminem song. That guy who played stan was a creepy and obssesed stalker.....
That song was released two decades ago, stan has come to just mean superfan as far as I can tell :confusedshrug: At least that's the way it's used on twitter and this board.

[RRR3]

You're a special kind of stupid, aren't you. How many times do I have to say it? I specifically isolated the years where either player was in their peak/prime AND faced the SAME opponent. 2012 is a prime year for Kobe and a peak year for LeBron, and the years follow each other in succession. The context heavily favors LeBron (which I've said 1000x before), but I still included it since it matches the methodology, which is about as good as it would get for two rivals not named Magic and Larry.

I keep repeating myself over and over but a butt hurt stan will always be a butt hurt stan.
I pretty frequently see people saying Kobe exited his prime after 2010. LeBron wasn't in his prime in 2008 either.

[HoopsNY]

You're a special kind of stupid, aren't you. How many times do I have to say it? I specifically isolated the years where either player was in their peak/prime AND faced the SAME opponent. 2012 is a prime year for Kobe and a peak year for LeBron, and the years follow each other in succession. The context heavily favors LeBron (which I've said 1000x before), but I still included it since it matches the methodology, which is about as good as it would get for two rivals not named Magic and Larry.

I keep repeating myself over and over but a butt hurt stan will always be a butt hurt stan.

And while we're at it, I could have used 2007, but I didn't. Why? Because neither guy faced the SAME opponent and LeBron really wasn't at his best then. I suppose you could say neither was 2012 Kobe, which is fair, but I figured 5 years of samples is a lot better than 4, which wouldn't have said much at all.

Not saying my methodology is flawless, it obviously isn't. But show me a better way than to show two rivals against the same teams at their best in the exact same years (five in a row). Come to think of it, how many times have we seen that (outside of Larry and Magic), especially when the two players in question are not in the same conference?

[MadDog]

A slight plus, below the likes of Chris Copeland, Norris Cole, and Ryan Hollins. Do you think that reflects well on Wade? Again he was injured, so it's not a black mark on his career he would have almost certainly have played well if he was healthy.

I said that playoff Wade wasn't good until the finals. But also asked how much it mattered? :confusedshrug: The comp Miami faced was mediocre. They played the 38-44 Bucks in the first round :oldlol:


That song was released two decades ago, stan has come to just mean superfan as far as I can tell :confusedshrug: At least that's the way it's used on twitter and this board.

Dont call yourself a "stan" in public. Thank me later.

[RRR3]

And while we're at it, I could have used 2007, but I didn't. Why? Because neither guy faced the SAME opponent and LeBron really wasn't at his best then. I suppose you could say neither was 2012 Kobe, which is fair, but I figured 5 years of samples is a lot better than 4, which wouldn't have said much at all.

Not saying my methodology is flawless, it obviously isn't. But show me a better way than to show two rivals against the same teams at their best in the exact same years (five in a row). Come to think of it, how many times have we seen that (outside of Larry and Magic), especially when the two players in question are not in the same conference?
I mean even if they were both at their peaks in all these years just comparing how two players play against the same opponent isn't a great indicator of who's better. Unless you think Jimmy Butler is better than Durant? A better way is just to compare their overall advanced and impact stats, both regular season and playoffs, and to take context into your consideration as well.

[RRR3]

I said that playoff Wade wasn't good until the finals. But also asked how much it mattered? :confusedshrug: The comp Miami faced was mediocre. They played the 38-44 Bucks in the first round :oldlol:



Dont call yourself a "stan" in public. Thank me later.
I'd say that it mattered that Wade was terrible in the Indiana series considering it went 7 games and LeBron had to have an incredible series for them to win. I don't call myself a stan in public, I just didnt deny it when Hoops called me that because there's no point in arguing over semantics when I'm clearly a LeBron supporter.

[NBAGOAT]

Lot to unpack but my big claim here is just using +/- to try to nit pick who’s the better player in a small sample isn’t how the stat is supposed to be used especially in a small sample like a playoff series. Rapm is one of my favorites for evaluating players since it doesn’t require any box score data but it’s not great at prediction for the same reason and needs multiple seasons of sample size to be useful for comparing players according to smarter people than me. I won’t give it too much value for 20-25 playoff games

A simple example a guy can be better at those on/off stats because the other team was bad at free throws when he was on the court. That is pure variance/luck and has nothing to do with a players ability. Over a season you could definitely have a case where opponents shoot 73% from ft line vs one guy and 77% vs other guy when league average is 75%. Newer impact metrics like EPM, LEBRON account for luck better and are more stable over small sample sizes. Ik pipm adjusted for 3 pt shooting even. Rapm is better at evaluating how well someone played but the newer ones are better at predicting who would play better if say you simulated 1000 games.

The plus minus stuff for wade was just to point out really doesn’t seem like he’s playing like a star anymore. You can debate if he’s helping the team but I don’t think my first claim is too debatable even with a small sample. the raw box score isn’t good either. 16/5 on 50ts% is not impressive.

[RRR3]

Lot to unpack but my big claim here is just using +/- to try to nit pick who’s the better player in a small sample isn’t how the stat is supposed to be used especially in a small sample like a playoff series. Rapm is one of my favorites for evaluating players since it doesn’t require any box score data but it’s not great at prediction for the same reason and needs multiple seasons of sample size to be useful for comparing players according to smarter people than me. I won’t give it too much value for 20-25 playoff games

A simple example a guy can be better at those on/off stats because the other team was bad at free throws when he was on the court. That is pure variance/luck and has nothing to do with a players ability. Over a season you could definitely have a case where opponents shoot 73% from ft line vs one guy and 77% vs other guy when league average is 75%. Newer impact metrics like EPM, LEBRON account for luck better and are more stable over small sample sizes. Ik pipm adjusted for 3 pt shooting even. Rapm is better at evaluating how well someone played but the newer ones are better at predicting who would play better if say you simulated 1000 games.

The plus minus stuff for wade was just to point out really doesn’t seem like he’s playing like a star anymore. You can debate if he’s helping the team but I don’t think my first claim is too debatable even with a small sample. the raw box score isn’t good either. 16/5 on 50ts% is not impressive.
:applause: :applause: :applause:

[MadDog]

I'd say that it mattered that Wade was terrible in the Indiana series considering it went 7 games and LeBron had to have an incredible series for them to win. I don't call myself a stan in public, I just didnt deny it when Hoops called me that because there's no point in arguing over semantics when I'm clearly a LeBron supporter.

His play could have cost them vs Indiana, but that game 7 was a walkover. Wade was pretty bad vs Milwaukee and Chicago too. Miami waxed them pretty quickly though. If Wade doesn't play well in the finals, I dont think it takes a genius to tell you Miami would have lost.

[MadDog]

Hey NBAGOAT. Is there such thing as postseason RPM? I get that RPM (ESPN) includes regular-season\playoffs\finals, but it'd be cool to get splits.

[NBAGOAT]

Hey NBAGOAT. Is there such thing as postseason RPM? I get that RPM (ESPN) includes regular-season\playoffs\finals, but it'd be cool to get splits.

I haven’t seen it but don’t know for sure. Also warning with rpm they changed the method a few years ago and most don’t like the new version

[RRR3]

His play could have cost them vs Indiana, but that game 7 was a walkover. Wade was pretty bad vs Milwaukee and Chicago too. Miami waxed them pretty quickly though. If Wade doesn't play well in the finals, I dont think it takes a genius to tell you Miami would have lost.
So? Game 1 was won at the buzzer. By LeBron. That was an extremely close series and Wade was a big reason for that. Claiming he stepped up "when it mattered" when he played like shit in a very close series is disingenuous.

[MadDog]

I haven’t seen it but don’t know for sure. Also warning with rpm they changed the method a few years ago and most don’t like the new version

Yea people don't really like the updated version of BPM (bball-ref) either. Still prefer to use RPM/EPM over RAPM in smaller samples. For all the reasons you explained.


So? Game 1 was won at the buzzer. By LeBron. That was an extremely close series and Wade was a big reason for that. Claiming he stepped up "when it mattered" when he played like shit in a very close series is disingenuous.

I said Wade's play could have cost them. And hyperbole aside, he played well against their best opponent. What more do you want? lol

[RRR3]

Yea people don't really like the updated version of BPM (bball-ref) either. Still prefer to use RPM/EPM over RAPM in smaller samples. Basically for all the reasons you explained.



I said Wade's play could have cost them. And hyperbole aside, he played well against their best opponent. What more do you want? lol
Did he though? The data posted by NBAGOAT suggested otherwise. And regardless if you admit Wade almost cost them due to his play, hard to claim LeBron was getting superteam help in those playoffs.

[MadDog]

Did he though? The data posted by NBAGOAT suggested otherwise. And regardless if you admit Wade almost cost them due to his play, hard to claim LeBron was getting superteam help in those playoffs.

Would say it depends on the lineups. Not going to pretend I remember all the rotations and substitutions. For a #2 though Wade put up good production. And was a +4 in BPM. That is allstar level of play.

[NBAGOAT]

Would say it depends on the lineups. Not going to pretend I remember all the rotations and substitutions. For a #2 though Wade put up good production. And was a +4 in BPM. That is allstar level of play.

I didn’t know there was bpm for single series. If you mean overall playoffs wade put up a 3, that is all star lvl tbf but not enough evidence to counter all the other evidence that suggested he wasn’t an all star lvl player even in the playoffs

[MadDog]

I didn’t know there was bpm for single series. If you mean overall playoffs wade put up a 3, that is all star lvl tbf

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01/gamelog-advanced/2013/

Available for every playoff game. I just calculated the finals, myself.

[RRR3]

Would say it depends on the lineups. Not going to pretend I remember all the rotations and substitutions. For a #2 though Wade put up good production. And was a +4 in BPM. That is allstar level of play.
BPM does not measure impact, and you would have to concede Kobe had a superteam in 2009 by this metric as he had 3 teammates who played major minutes put up a BPM over 3 in the playoffs: Gasol (5.3), Ariza (3.8) and Odom (3.2).

[NBAGOAT]

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01/gamelog-advanced/2013/

Available for every playoff game. I just calculated the finals, myself.

Got it makes sense then. My counter is even though Bpm is one of the best ones, still just a pure box score metric. Obviously 20/5 is a good statline. I wish I wasn’t so lazy otherwise I be tempted to rewatch the series now

[MadDog]

Got it makes sense then. My counter is even though Bpm is one of the best ones, still just a pure box score metric. Obviously 20/5 is a good statline. I wish I wasn’t so lazy otherwise I be tempted to rewatch the series now

That's totally fair. But how much better is on/off when it also includes box play?


BPM does not measure impact, and you would have to concede Kobe had a superteam in 2009 by this metric as he had 3 teammates who played major minutes put up a BPM over 3 in the playoffs: Gasol (5.3), Ariza (3.8) and Odom (3.2).

On/off also uses box play lol. You know that I didn't just use "BPM" to make my argument either. Don't reach my guy.

[RRR3]

That's totally fair. But how much better is on/off when it also includes box play?



On/off also uses box play lol. You know that I didn't just use "BPM" to make my argument either. Don't reach my guy.
I was just responding to your particular post. Notice you couldn't respond to the 09 Lakers bit tho :lol

[NBAGOAT]

That's totally fair. But how much better is on/off when it also includes box play?



On/off also uses box play lol. You know that I didn't just use "BPM" to make my argument either. Don't reach my guy.

For a small sample definitely quite a bit better

[MadDog]

I was just responding to your particular post. Notice you couldn't respond to the 09 Lakers bit tho :lol

I could concede that. But if we just went the BPM route, I promise I'd like the results more than you would. :oldlol:

[RRR3]

I could concede that. But if we just went the BPM route, I promise I'd like the results more than you would. :oldlol:
If we're comparing LeBron and Kobe? I doubt it, seeing as LeBron is iirc second to MJ in that stat in both regular season and playoffs.

[MadDog]

If we're comparing LeBron and Kobe? I doubt it, seeing as LeBron is iirc second to MJ in that stat in both regular season and playoffs.

I'm talking about their help dude. That's been the argument for most of this thread. You already know I have LeBron>Kobe, so that would be a pointless exercise to do.

[outofstomach]

Why does that guy attack you in every thread? lol the type of poster who insults you cuz of a disagreement. Weaksauce. I remember past Pippen & Jordan debates we had. You and I don't agree on a lot of shit, but I never went at you personally :oldlol:lots of these stans take any criticism of lebron as an personal attack on themselves :lol

i lowkey think some of them live vicariously through lebron’s accomplishments and stature in the league, it’s pretty sad

[8Ball]

A Case for Kobe over LeBron...



Here are Kobe's finals stats

2000 - 15.6 ppg | 39 fg%

2001 - 24 ppg | 41.5 fg% | 50 TS%

2002 - 27 ppg | 51 fg% | 62 TS%

2004 - 23 ppg | 38 fg% | 46 TS%

2008 - 26 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 50.5 TS%

2009 - 32 ppg | 43 fg% | 52.5 TS%

2010 - 29 ppg | 40.1 fg% | 52.8 TS%



Here are Kobe's game seven stats.

44.2 MPG

22.2 points

FG 38.9%

FT 67.3%

8 RPG

5 APG

1 SPG

1.3 BPG





Here are Kobe's stats when facing elimination.



22.3 PPG

5.8 RPG


3.5 APG

1.3 SPG

1.3 BPG

on a 50.3 TS

and his teams went 9-10 in those games.