How do some people have Kobe as GOAT/Best Ever?

[StrongLurk]

I legit don't understand it. In sports, it's hard to have direct comparisons between histories best players...but basketball is different. Kobe literally tried harder than anyone to model his game DIRECTLY after MJ, and he was lucky enough to also end up similar sized. Credit to Kobe in that he got pretty damn close to MJ...but it's still so obvious Kobe falls SHORT of MJ...like really obvious.

Some of these hardcore Kobe stans I see always fall back on unquantifiable reasons for why Kobe is better, because that's literally all they have. Everything quantifiable in basketball shows MJ>Kobe. And if you want to get into things like intangibles, mental toughness, and EYE TEST, MJ has all of that in spades too.

So I really just don't understand the people who say Kobe is GOAT...he didn't surpass MJ anywhere AND Kobe played with PEAK SHAQ, someone who was FAR MORE DOMINANT/BETTER than anyone MJ played with.

It must be either hardcore Lakers fans who got to watch Kobe from the beginning, or the Kobe stans were people who were too young to ever watch MJ (let's say people born in 1995 and after).

[ClipperRevival]

It's a combo of eye test, skills and actual on court PEAK along with some bias.

Like 81. MJ never did that and only Wilt surpassed that.

Or 62 in 3 quarters and outscoring the opponent. No one ever did that.

Or 4 straight games of 50+ points, only surpassed by Wilt.

Or 60 in his final game.

And you can legit argue he was THE most skilled player ever. But yeah, when you objectively look at his career, he can't be GOAT because the guy he copied was clearly better than him. But I legit think some NBA players would go to war with Kobe over almost anyone else cause of his mentality.

[Johnny32]

It's a combo of eye test, skills and actual on court PEAK along with some bias.

Like 81. MJ never did that and only Wilt surpassed that.

Or 62 in 3 quarters and outscoring the opponent. No one ever did that.

Or 4 straight games of 50+ points, only surpassed by Wilt.

Or 60 in his final game.

And you can legit argue he was THE most skilled player ever. But yeah, when you objectively look at his career, he can't be GOAT because the guy he copied was clearly better than him. But I legit think some NBA players would go to war with Kobe over almost anyone else cause of his mentality.

it's all reg season scoring games though lol. where's the 40/50 point playoff games?

[SouBeachTalents]

it's all reg season scoring games though lol. where's the 40/50 point playoff games?
Word, literally all regular season games lol, the majority of them against lottery teams.

[iamgine]

I legit don't understand it. In sports, it's hard to have direct comparisons between histories best players...but basketball is different. Kobe literally tried harder than anyone to model his game DIRECTLY after MJ, and he was lucky enough to also end up similar sized. Credit to Kobe in that he got pretty damn close to MJ...but it's still so obvious Kobe falls SHORT of MJ...like really obvious.

Some of these hardcore Kobe stans I see always fall back on unquantifiable reasons for why Kobe is better, because that's literally all they have. Everything quantifiable in basketball shows MJ>Kobe. And if you want to get into things like intangibles, mental toughness, and EYE TEST, MJ has all of that in spades too.

So I really just don't understand the people who say Kobe is GOAT...he didn't surpass MJ anywhere AND Kobe played with PEAK SHAQ, someone who was FAR MORE DOMINANT/BETTER than anyone MJ played with.

It must be either hardcore Lakers fans who got to watch Kobe from the beginning, or the Kobe stans were people who were too young to ever watch MJ (let's say people born in 1995 and after).

Things like intangibles, mental toughness, and EYE TEST are opinion.

But it's not true that Kobe didn't surpass MJ anywhere. Kobe did win a couple with Gasol. And he did carry Kwame and Smush type players to a 7 game series against a very strong team. MJ never did these.

[LeGoat4Life]

Kobe is the closest we got to Mj

Kobe isn’t in the goat conversation, however he is universally ranked higher than Lebron who is a cemented top 15 player

[John8204]

It's a generational thing...he was also able to win with two teams Jordan only won with one. Kobe is the 2nd best Shooting Guard of all-time and if you didn't see MJ play and saw what Kobe did for a longer period of time you could call Kobe the GOAT.

I'd put him in the top ten

[Axe]

It's a generational thing...he was also able to win with two teams Jordan only won with one. Kobe is the 2nd best Shooting Guard of all-time and if you didn't see MJ play and saw what Kobe did for a longer period of time you could call Kobe the GOAT.

I'd put him in the top ten
What in the world do you mean by this?

[Shooter]

Advanced stats don't lie.

LeGoat is #1 and Kobe is pedestrian.

His legacy gets him to top 15 max.

[2much_knowledge]

It's a combo of eye test, skills and actual on court PEAK along with some bias.

Like 81. MJ never did that and only Wilt surpassed that.

Or 62 in 3 quarters and outscoring the opponent. No one ever did that.

Or 4 straight games of 50+ points, only surpassed by Wilt.

Or 60 in his final game.

And you can legit argue he was THE most skilled player ever. But yeah, when you objectively look at his career, he can't be GOAT because the guy he copied was clearly better than him. But I legit think some NBA players would go to war with Kobe over almost anyone else cause of his mentality.

This. Plus he was very succesfull in a very tough conference. And many players and peers stand by him.

[Spurs m8]

It's a combo of eye test, skills and actual on court PEAK along with some bias.

Like 81. MJ never did that and only Wilt surpassed that.

Or 62 in 3 quarters and outscoring the opponent. No one ever did that.

Or 4 straight games of 50+ points, only surpassed by Wilt.

Or 60 in his final game.

And you can legit argue he was THE most skilled player ever. But yeah, when you objectively look at his career, he can't be GOAT because the guy he copied was clearly better than him. But I legit think some NBA players would go to war with Kobe over almost anyone else cause of his mentality.

As if MJ couldn't get 81 though...

He just wasn't that selfish

[Rysio]

Eye test is what gives him legit argument also when on fire the guy was just unstoppable.

[Pipes2.0]

Those people are brain-dead. Case in point - 20four, stalkerforlife, and ImKobe.

[John8204]

What in the world do you mean by this?

00-02 - Shaq, Fox, Fisher, Harper, Horry, Green, Rice, Grant
09-10 - Gasol, Fisher, Arizia, Bynum, Artest, Odum

You don't get a more different group of guys than that.

[PeroAntic]

Eye test is what gives him legit argument also when on fire the guy was just unstoppable.

This.

Kobe was basically a Jordan clone. But in terms of ball handling, skill moves and heroics, he was likely better than Jordan. So if Jordan is consensus GOAT, and many casuals thought he is because of his skill moves and heroics, then Kobe must be better.

Its just a casuals thing.

[hold this L]

It's a combo of eye test, skills and actual on court PEAK along with some bias.

Like 81. MJ never did that and only Wilt surpassed that.

Or 62 in 3 quarters and outscoring the opponent. No one ever did that.

Or 4 straight games of 50+ points, only surpassed by Wilt.

Or 60 in his final game.

And you can legit argue he was THE most skilled player ever. But yeah, when you objectively look at his career, he can't be GOAT because the guy he copied was clearly better than him. But I legit think some NBA players would go to war with Kobe over almost anyone else cause of his mentality.
He took 50 shots in his last game. That's legitimately horrific by just about any professional standard you can use. He's definitely one of the best scorers ever but also significantly below 3 guys of this era in terms of getting high production at an elite level.

Eye test is what gives him legit argument also when on fire the guy was just unstoppable.
That's every all time great.

[Rysio]

He took 50 shots in his last game. That's legitimately horrific by just about any professional standard you can use. He's definitely one of the best scorers ever but also significantly below 3 guys of this era in terms of getting high production at an elite level.

That's every all time great.

No way every all time great has the eye test of Kobe unstoppable when hot true but not quite like Kobe who hit circus shots when hot.

[Axe]

00-02 - Shaq, Fox, Fisher, Harper, Horry, Green, Rice, Grant
09-10 - Gasol, Fisher, Arizia, Bynum, Artest, Odum

You don't get a more different group of guys than that.
Lmao if that's your definition of being 'able to win with two teams', then i'm pretty sure the same thing would apply to jordan which you seem to have overlooked earlier.

1st three peat (91-93): pippen, grant, paxson, cartwright, armstrong, king

2nd three-peat (96-98): pippen, rodman, kerr, longley, harper, kukoc

Notice some former players that you listed for the lakers also played for the bulls bt. The book 'eleven rings' by the zenmaster phil jackson covers about their title runs before, as well as kobe and his teams. A good read actually.

[Axe]

No way every all time great has the eye test of Kobe unstoppable when hot true but not quite like Kobe who hit circus shots when hot.
He's definitely a hardworker in terms of being a prolific scoring machine but he's allowed himself to become one too much to the point that he didn't care anymore whether many of his shots were already bricking which also led to some grave consequences in crucial games.

[sdot_thadon]

I never understood it, and I was a fan. I always felt he was a caricature version of Mj, taking certain aspects of his game/brand to extremes. He had a small window where you could ask the question if he was gonna end up better than Mike, but it closed nearly as quickly as it opened. And however unfair or fair a criticism it may be, the Shaq thing always would stain his accomplishments as a whole in a way they never did for Magic or Kareem.

He very well may be the definition of your favorite player's favorite player tho.

[John8204]

Lmao if that's your definition of being 'able to win with two teams', then i'm pretty sure the same thing would apply to jordan which you seem to have overlooked earlier.

1st three peat (91-93): pippen, grant, paxson, cartwright, armstrong, king

2nd three-peat (96-98): pippen, rodman, kerr, longley, harper, kukoc

Notice some former players that you listed for the lakers also played for the bulls bt. The book 'eleven rings' by the zenmaster phil jackson covers about their title runs before, as well as kobe and his teams. A good read actually.

Those are two very different situations, the Lakers turn of the century team was filled with all-stars a collusion group if you will. The second squad was a group of roll players and specialists.

For the bulls it was Jordan/Scotty and then switching out Kerr for Paxson, Kukoc for Grant, Longley for Cartwright...basically just getting better versions of the same players

[Axe]

Those are two very different situations, the Lakers turn of the century team was filled with all-stars a collusion group if you will. The second squad was a group of roll players and specialists.

For the bulls it was Jordan/Scotty and then switching out Kerr for Paxson, Kukoc for Grant, Longley for Cartwright...basically just getting better versions of the same players
Hmm are you trying to say that too because kobe was a sidekick to shaq during their finals runs while he's already the team captain the moment pau came to the lakers? I guess i could see your point rt.

[ImKobe]

I legit don't understand it. In sports, it's hard to have direct comparisons between histories best players...but basketball is different. Kobe literally tried harder than anyone to model his game DIRECTLY after MJ, and he was lucky enough to also end up similar sized. Credit to Kobe in that he got pretty damn close to MJ...but it's still so obvious Kobe falls SHORT of MJ...like really obvious.

Some of these hardcore Kobe stans I see always fall back on unquantifiable reasons for why Kobe is better, because that's literally all they have. Everything quantifiable in basketball shows MJ>Kobe. And if you want to get into things like intangibles, mental toughness, and EYE TEST, MJ has all of that in spades too.

So I really just don't understand the people who say Kobe is GOAT...he didn't surpass MJ anywhere AND Kobe played with PEAK SHAQ, someone who was FAR MORE DOMINANT/BETTER than anyone MJ played with.

It must be either hardcore Lakers fans who got to watch Kobe from the beginning, or the Kobe stans were people who were too young to ever watch MJ (let's say people born in 1995 and after).


It really depends on what the criteria is. You could argue that Kobe was the most skilled player in NBA history, or the most entertaining player in NBA history. Not everyone is a stat nerd that just looks at BB-Ref numbers to formulate all their takes. Kobe was the closest thing to Jordan and he's the GOAT for many of the people who grew up in his era.

[eliteballer]

It's for the exact same reasons KD said this:


“Of course. He’s the greatest of all time. His skill is second to none. Him and [Michael Jordan] are neck and neck as far as skill. You can put in athleticism and be the best passer and strongest and quickest. But it’s about skill. I think that’s how his game is played. That’s why Kobe is the top two best ever in just having skill, footwork, shooting the three, shooting the pull up, posting up, dunking on guys and ball handling. It’s flat out skill. Him and Jordan are 1 and 1A. They’re neck and neck as far as the skills are concerned.”


https://sports.yahoo.com/kevin-durant--kobe-bryant-is--the-greatest-of-all-time---kobe-and-michael-jordan-are--1-and-1a-213142314.html?a20=1



“But watching Kobe and Mike, I’m like, ‘How do you not realize how good these dudes are?’ How do you not say they’re by far better than anybody who’s played the game? Just by the way they move, how fluid they are.”

https://lakersnation.com/kevin-durant-praise-kobe-bryant-goat-michael-jordan-by-far-better-best-nba-history-all-time/2019/01/11/