What If MJ Never Won A Championship? Would He Still Be Considered The GOAT?

[Round Mound]

IMO Yes. Teams Win Championships Not Singular Players,

[GrayGoat]

We know what MJ is without Pippen

[ClipperRevival]

Yeah but in bball 1 player impacts the game so much so it's not a realistic question. The true GOAT has to win chips. But to answer OP, he probably wants to know how MJ was viewed prior to his first chip. Well, universally recognized as the BITW. Here are his stats prior to 1991.

32.8 PPG, 6.3 RPG, 6.0 APG, 2.8 SPG, 1.1 BPG, .516 FG%, 29.9 PER

https://c.tenor.com/WJIEOHsnJmkAAAAM/obama-mic-drop.gif

[Real Men Wear Green]

A small minority of fans might think it but he wouldn't be considered the greatest ever by the general public. That isn't fair but it's the reality Championships are integral to the discussion.

[FultzNationRISE]

Shouldnt change much tbh, no serious fan has him above Bron anyway.

[Round Mound]

We know what MJ is without Pippen

Jordan did make Pippen tougher but Pippen's talent was indeniable on its own. A point forward that can score (not shoot much though) in transition, dunk, go coast to coast, pass, create and especially defend. That doesn't take away that Jordan was the best by 1988.

[John8204]

I don't think so...but if he never wins a title several players get a bump.

1. Hakeem Olajuwon (if Hakeem wins several rings because Jordan didn't he would lap Jordan)
2. Kobe Bryant (5 rings and a 25PPG likely pushes him ahead of Jordan)
3. Elgin Baylor (#3 in PPG likely gets a huge boost because he's not the only player with finals appearances and no rings)
4. Karl Malone (likely wins a ring and being #2 in points holds a higher value

So that would put Jordan in the 9-15 range all-time

[IMObjective]

I don't think so...but if he never wins a title several players get a bump.

1. Hakeem Olajuwon (if Hakeem wins several rings because Jordan didn't he would lap Jordan)
2. Kobe Bryant (5 rings and a 25PPG likely pushes him ahead of Jordan)
3. Elgin Baylor (#3 in PPG likely gets a huge boost because he's not the only player with finals appearances and no rings)
4. Karl Malone (likely wins a ring and being #2 in points holds a higher value

So that would put Jordan in the 9-15 range all-time

He has 6 rings, 6 fmvps, 5 mvps, etc. and some people still scoff at Jordan, pippen this, 1 for 9 that. No way people would say he's the goat without a single ring.

[Doomsday Dallas]

https://c.tenor.com/hI3efPGfoMkAAAAM/you-play.gif

[Baller789]

What kind of question is this OP?

Of course not. He wont even be top ten.

There would be plenty of others for consideration then.

[3ba11]

IMO Yes. Teams Win Championships Not Singular Players,


It's impossible that he wouldn't win chips - his dynasty represents the weakest sidekick and cast to ever be a dynasty

He accomplished the best modern dynasty with the least help because he had the perfect talent and mentality to develop a great defensive team, while also needing the least scoring help - just give him Wiggins and it's lights out for a decade.. That's a GM's dream.

And people either ignore or don't realize that ONLY MJ carried the scoring load (defeated maximum defensive attention) in every series.... and ONLY MJ lacked a teammate that got doubled or gameplanned for, as Shaq and Kenny Smith point out here (https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-27-2022/qrDm8n.gif) and here (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4UF6Xx3F2Lo&t=01m54s), respectively...

If MJ is the only guy that always defeated maximum defensive attention, while also winning the most rings in 3-pointer history as the best player, then he's obviously the GOAT..

[John8204]

It's impossible that he wouldn't win chips - his dynasty represents the weakest sidekick and cast to ever be a dynasty

So you are on record to say Vern Mikkelsen > Scottie Pippen

[3ba11]

So you are on record to say Vern Mikkelsen > Scottie Pippen


We're talking 3-pointer history




So you are on record to say Vern Mikkelsen > Scottie Pippen



Playoff PPG


87' Worthy...... 23.6
87' Magic....... 21.1

86' McHale..... 24.9
86' Bird........... 25.9

88' McHale..... 25.1
88' Bird........... 24.9

89' Isiah.......... 18.2
89' Dumars..... 17.6 (fmvp... 27 and 6 apg)

11' Wade........ 24.5
11' Lebron...... 23.7

16' Kyrie......... 25.2
16' Lebron...... 26.2

20' AD............ 27.7
20' Lebron..... 27.6


^^^^ Everyone in history had equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention, so they didn't always face maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load).

Any period without facing maximum defensive attention is inflated stats compared to Jordan, who always defeated maximum defensive attention - he carried the scoring load in every SERIES, let alone playoff run..

Jordan averaged 10-30 more than Pippen in every series of their career.. (edit: there's 2 series where MJ "only" averaged 8 and 4 more).. In addition to carrying the scoring load for Pippen, Jordan averaged more assists for their Finals career, playoff career and regular season career, while also getting more DPOY votes every year except 96/97

[WhiteKyrie]

I don’t live by hypotheticals

MJ - 6 rings in 6 Attemps with 6 Finals MVPs and 5 MVPs

GOAT. Mic drop

[3ba11]

.
Pippen is the only 2nd option on this list:


https://i.ibb.co/qBBHvB1/chrome-d-EXe-R4x-E8t.jpg


Let that sink in...... How could anyone win with woat efficiency from a primary option????.... :biggums:

The GOAT defeated maximum defensive attention (carried scoring load)... that's how... :pimp:




Jordan did make Pippen tougher but Pippen's talent was indeniable on its own. A point forward that can score (not shoot much though) in transition, dunk, go coast to coast, pass, create and especially defend. That doesn't take away that Jordan was the best by 1988.


Jordan won 50 with rookie Pippen getting 8 ppg and Oakley was the 2nd scoring option - he did this in a conference that required a super-team to win it (80's East)

And Pippen's stint with Doug Collins, Houston and Portland confirmed that he was a 14 ppg dunker that couldn't score outside the dynasty chemistry and triangle that was LUCKY to grow up in..

Jordan also won 2 titles with Pippen shooting worse than anyone ever has - notice how Pippen is the only 2nd option on the list of worst playoff efficiency above - everyone else is a role player

[Rysio]

Nah he'd just be a more selfish durant.

[TheGoatest]

jordon extremist alts would still find some new customized criteria that makes him GOAT, just like the idiotic "criteria" that implies it is better for a player's legacy to get swept in the first round than make the NBA finals.
A jordon extremist from Chicago media was calling jordon the GOAT as early as 1988.

[sdot_thadon]

Nope.

I don't think it changes his quality as a player in any way, but someone put in the declaration of independence that you have to win a ring to be great. One used to be acceptable to punch your ticket, but now winning one is almost as bad as none apparently lol. Fans value the total but constant disregard the rings themselves, and don't respect champions.

[Johnny32]

no. while i don't value team success as highly as some it definitely matters to an extent when talking legacies.

[HoopsNY]

Absolutely not. How can you realistically be considered the greatest player of all time with zero championships?

[FilmyCogTurner]

No. Accumulating great stats is nice but winning the championship is the goal and also how we help define player ranking (amongst other things of course).


What kind of question is this OP?

Of course not. He wont even be top ten.

There would be plenty of others for consideration then.

Seconded.

[FKAri]

For me? Of course. For the public at large? Of course not. Basketball still has a "Rangz Erneh" mentality.

MJ got lucky that Pippen and Rodman worked out because with an owner like Reisendorf you're not going to get a lot of chances. There were not going to be any big ticket free agents coming.

[Hey Yo]

I don’t live by hypotheticals

MJ - 6 rings in 6 Attemps with 6 Finals MVPs and 5 MVPs

GOAT. Mic drop

3 rings, 3FMVP's and 4MVP's.

Quit in his prime to rest up for a few years.

Comes back and loses in the 2nd round even though he was playing at peak performance.

3* rings, 3* FMVP's and 2* MVP's.

Thems the FACTS