Nick Wright ranks Jordan #3 of the last 50 years

[Carbine]

Go.

[2much_knowledge]

He retarded. Unfair a guy like that actually gets paid to talk sports

[Bacchus]

The Athletic ranks Jordan # 1

This ranking is not in dispute. It’s a formality, a wave of the hand, a tip of the cap, an admittance of the obvious. The sky is blue. The earth is round. Michael Jordan, No. 1 on The Athletic’s NBA 75. The best player in the 75-year history of the NBA. Case closed. There is no next. There is only one, and it’s Jordan

[999Guy]

He retarded. Unfair a guy like that actually gets paid to talk sports

The fact that you believe he’s retarded why he’ll get a platform to talk about it as opposed to whatever conventional opinion you’d have nobody needs to hear.

It’s funny when people get a glimpse of reality through the horseshit. You’d think you’d realize how mediocre the way fans have been taught to think is.

Boiling it down, Jordan really wasn’t higher impact than Duncan, peak for peak.

There’s a shit ton he left on the table as far as impact. The entire defensive side of the game.

On the most practical level, Jordan has no reason to be better than any truly dominant big man. It is a big man’s sport. And defense is the most dominant part of the game historically.

No bad defense will ever win a title at this rate. Plenty of bad offenses did or came really close.

Raw basketball ability, Jordan ain’t better than Jokic. But Jokic just can’t defend the best approaches to offense in the history of the sport. Thing is, Jordan didn’t play in the best offensive era.

Jokic wouldve annihilated the NBA pre-2014, even in the playoffs, on both ends, to the level of Jordan or anyone else. And that’s because he’s a massive human with blends of the skills of the smaller ones. Or even better skill than almost all the smaller guys, ever.

Once you start talking absolute peak Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq, Kareem, Robinson, Garnett…. Like Jordan had less weaknesses because naturally his position and approach to the sport had less depth of responsibility, so it’s really easier to. Same time, he didn’t have as strong of strengths of these guys.

Hakeem could seal the entire paint off and run an offense based on him scoring 35 and being a threat to score 45 if you don’t spam double. The center of the universe on both ends. Jordan is not as good as that. He was consistent, he was very high volume, which he had to be to even touch those guys impact as a guard, but Hakeem could and did reach higher levels of raw dominance on the court. Their very guys had their moments too.

[WhiteKyrie]

Well this was telegraphed. If you followed him long enough, you’d know he was going to do this. Either as clout or whatever or trying to get subscribers by being obtuse. He hates Jordan. You know he was going to have LeBron at the top of the list. Kareem 100% doesn’t deserve to in the top 2.

[Hey Yo]

He retarded. Unfair a guy like that actually gets paid to talk sports

Says the guy who worships Skip Bayless

[Im so nba'd out]

A little high. That was generous of him

[bison]

He needs to leave the trolling to dudes like skip. The best thing about Skip is he is amazing at sounding like he genuinely believes the stupid shit he says and says it with believable conviction. Nick Wright is a cuck and looks like one.

[WhiteKyrie]

He needs to leave the trolling to dudes like skip. The best thing about Skip is he is amazing at sounding like he genuinely believes the stupid shit he says and says it with believable conviction. Nick Wright is a cuck and looks like one.

What has skip said that’s so stupid?

[3ba11]

What was his reasoning

What were the actual reasons that he didn't have MJ #1

Because surely they can shown to be wrong

[Axe]

https://cdn3.emoji.gg/emojis/3097-crying-michael-jordan.png

[warriorfan]

The fact that you believe he’s retarded why he’ll get a platform to talk about it as opposed to whatever conventional opinion you’d have nobody needs to hear.

It’s funny when people get a glimpse of reality through the horseshit. You’d think you’d realize how mediocre the way fans have been taught to think is.

Boiling it down, Jordan really wasn’t higher impact than Duncan, peak for peak.

There’s a shit ton he left on the table as far as impact. The entire defensive side of the game.

On the most practical level, Jordan has no reason to be better than any truly dominant big man. It is a big man’s sport. And defense is the most dominant part of the game historically.

No bad defense will ever win a title at this rate. Plenty of bad offenses did or came really close.

Raw basketball ability, Jordan ain’t better than Jokic. But Jokic just can’t defend the best approaches to offense in the history of the sport. Thing is, Jordan didn’t play in the best offensive era.

Jokic wouldve annihilated the NBA pre-2014, even in the playoffs, on both ends, to the level of Jordan or anyone else. And that’s because he’s a massive human with blends of the skills of the smaller ones. Or even better skill than almost all the smaller guys, ever.

Once you start talking absolute peak Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq, Kareem, Robinson, Garnett…. Like Jordan had less weaknesses because naturally his position and approach to the sport had less depth of responsibility, so it’s really easier to. Same time, he didn’t have as strong of strengths of these guys.

Hakeem could seal the entire paint off and run an offense based on him scoring 35 and being a threat to score 45 if you don’t spam double. The center of the universe on both ends. Jordan is not as good as that. He was consistent, he was very high volume, which he had to be to even touch those guys impact as a guard, but Hakeem could and did reach higher levels of raw dominance on the court. Their very guys had their moments too.

Low iq

[bison]

What was his reasoning

What were the actual reasons that he didn't have MJ #1

Because surely they can shown to be wrong

He made a 40 minute video about it https://youtu.be/ijdbWlHOHrM

[3ba11]

He made a 40 minute video about it https://youtu.be/ijdbWlHOHrM


What were your takeaways

[3ba11]

The fact that you believe he’s retarded why he’ll get a platform to talk about it as opposed to whatever conventional opinion you’d have nobody needs to hear.

It’s funny when people get a glimpse of reality through the horseshit. You’d think you’d realize how mediocre the way fans have been taught to think is.

Boiling it down, Jordan really wasn’t higher impact than Duncan, peak for peak.

There’s a shit ton he left on the table as far as impact. The entire defensive side of the game.

On the most practical level, Jordan has no reason to be better than any truly dominant big man. It is a big man’s sport. And defense is the most dominant part of the game historically.

No bad defense will ever win a title at this rate. Plenty of bad offenses did or came really close.

Raw basketball ability, Jordan ain’t better than Jokic. But Jokic just can’t defend the best approaches to offense in the history of the sport. Thing is, Jordan didn’t play in the best offensive era.

Jokic wouldve annihilated the NBA pre-2014, even in the playoffs, on both ends, to the level of Jordan or anyone else. And that’s because he’s a massive human with blends of the skills of the smaller ones. Or even better skill than almost all the smaller guys, ever.

Once you start talking absolute peak Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq, Kareem, Robinson, Garnett…. Like Jordan had less weaknesses because naturally his position and approach to the sport had less depth of responsibility, so it’s really easier to. Same time, he didn’t have as strong of strengths of these guys.

Hakeem could seal the entire paint off and run an offense based on him scoring 35 and being a threat to score 45 if you don’t spam double. The center of the universe on both ends. Jordan is not as good as that. He was consistent, he was very high volume, which he had to be to even touch those guys impact as a guard, but Hakeem could and did reach higher levels of raw dominance on the court. Their very guys had their moments too.




Jordan was top 7 for DPOY from 88-98' (25-35), while Lebron wasn't all-defense in his 30's - so Lebron wasn't required to be good defender, while Jordan had to be a perennial DPOY candidate. - this means that all the arguments about Jordan not having a big man defensive impact apply to Lebron even more.. :confusedshrug:

But most importantly - unlike big men defenders like Duncan or Hakeem, Jordan gave the Bulls a 2-way team - the Bulls had the best offenses ever (115 ortg with goat margins above league average) in addition to having a top defense... That's better than Duncan/Hakeem, which is why Jordan's teams were unbeatable and win much more than theirs..

[TheMan]

He retarded. Unfair a guy like that actually gets paid to talk sports

/thread

Please don't pile on, people. Mental retardation is not a laughing matter...

[TheMan]

Low iq

Hakeem has called MJ the GOAT too. 999Guy is hilarious with that take.

[FKAri]

The fact that you believe he’s retarded why he’ll get a platform to talk about it as opposed to whatever conventional opinion you’d have nobody needs to hear.

It’s funny when people get a glimpse of reality through the horseshit. You’d think you’d realize how mediocre the way fans have been taught to think is.

Boiling it down, Jordan really wasn’t higher impact than Duncan, peak for peak.

There’s a shit ton he left on the table as far as impact. The entire defensive side of the game.

On the most practical level, Jordan has no reason to be better than any truly dominant big man. It is a big man’s sport. And defense is the most dominant part of the game historically.

No bad defense will ever win a title at this rate. Plenty of bad offenses did or came really close.

Raw basketball ability, Jordan ain’t better than Jokic. But Jokic just can’t defend the best approaches to offense in the history of the sport. Thing is, Jordan didn’t play in the best offensive era.

Jokic wouldve annihilated the NBA pre-2014, even in the playoffs, on both ends, to the level of Jordan or anyone else. And that’s because he’s a massive human with blends of the skills of the smaller ones. Or even better skill than almost all the smaller guys, ever.

Once you start talking absolute peak Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq, Kareem, Robinson, Garnett…. Like Jordan had less weaknesses because naturally his position and approach to the sport had less depth of responsibility, so it’s really easier to. Same time, he didn’t have as strong of strengths of these guys.

Hakeem could seal the entire paint off and run an offense based on him scoring 35 and being a threat to score 45 if you don’t spam double. The center of the universe on both ends. Jordan is not as good as that. He was consistent, he was very high volume, which he had to be to even touch those guys impact as a guard, but Hakeem could and did reach higher levels of raw dominance on the court. Their very guys had their moments too.

This is an opinion that I heard a lot from older fans who refused to accept that a guard could be the GOAT. And there is some merit to the argument. Regardless, since MJ's time the game has continued to move even further away from favoring the big man. I don't think it can be applied to the game as it is today.

[TheGoatest]

The alts are fuming, FUMING about this. :roll:

[KNOW1EDGE]

Stopped reading at “Nick Wright”

[Cyrus334]

So what's his argument for Kareem being better than Jordan but not Lebron?

[TheGoatest]

So what's his argument for Kareem being better than Jordan but not Lebron?

Unquestionably more coherent than the "argument" jordon extremist alts have for jordon being better than LeBron but Bill Russell not being better than jordon.

[SouBeachTalents]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FYcj41tUsAAZGU0?format=jpg&name=900x900

I'm not saying it's a great list, but I've seen much worse. The only things that truly stand out as bad to me

1. Isiah at 15 is a joke. Iverson is ranked way too high as well
2. It makes zero sense to have Luka that high, even if it's based on projection, and not even include Jokic
3. There are several players I wouldn't have included in the list, but Archibald & Rodman are the two that stick out the most as being truly undeserving

[bison]

What were your takeaways

I haven’t watched. I was just answering your question.

[3ba11]

I haven’t watched. I was just answering your question.


I stopped watching when I heard him say that Jordan had the highest peak ever and started listing his accolades

Who would sit there and listen to that 4th grade level garbage

[3ba11]

I just watched it and it's much worse than I thought

He basically recites Jordan's career year-by-year and says Jordan reached a higher peak but Lebron has longevity

How about a discussion of the basketball?... How about evaluating who can defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load in Finals) and whose skillset has the teammate development, teammate fits and brand of ball to win organically?

When we evaluate these issues, there's no debate.. only a fake one

[8Ball]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FYcj41tUsAAZGU0?format=jpg&name=900x900


Good list so far, but I would put Jordan at 2, Kareem at 3.


Only deranged LeBron haters put LeBron outside the TOP ONE.

Biased LeBron critics say LeBron is 1b or at worst 2.

Don't need to listen to what retards think since their opinions die out with time.

[8Ball]

I just watched it and it's much worse than I thought

He basically recites Jordan's career year-by-year and says Jordan reached a higher peak but Lebron has longevity

How about a discussion of the basketball?... How about evaluating who can defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load in Finals) and whose skillset has the teammate development, teammate fits and brand of ball to win organically?

When we evaluate these issues, there's no debate.. only a fake one

I've already proven the basketball discussion. There's no debate.

[8Ball]

Even LeBron's greatest NBA hater Draymond Green has come around and acknowledged that LeBron is one of if not the greatest of all time.



Once LeBron becomes #1 reg season scorer the momentum will shift heavily. The fight is over.

[3ba11]

Even LeBron's greatest NBA hater Draymond Green





Dray became Lebron's biggest cheerleader once they got in business together

But Lebron fans are so gullible

[8Ball]

Dray became Lebron's biggest cheerleader once they got in business together

But Lebron fans are so gullible

It is consensus knowledge among all high IQ basketball players that draymond possesses extremely high basketball IQ. All coaches and GMs acknowledge this.

Draymond eventually reaches the obvious conclusion.

[8Ball]

3ball you know the tide is shifting, I can sense it in your posts.


There's fear in you that within a few years that massive % of people will just simply believe Bron is the GOAT and there is no changing their minds. I believe this fact disturbs you greatly.

[3ba11]

It is consensus knowledge among all high IQ basketball players that draymond possesses extremely high basketball IQ. All coaches and GMs acknowledge this.

Draymond eventually reaches the obvious conclusion.


Draymond is a system player and lucky to grow up in a dynasty system and chemistry

He's literally nothing without it - on another team, he's a 7/5/6 nobody

He's one of the most overrated players in history

[8Ball]

System player. It was either Triangle or bust.

[3ba11]

System player. It was either Triangle or bust.


Outside the triangle:


PIPPEN..... 14 ppg dunker that couldn't score

JORDAN..... MVP and DPOY... carried 6 seed to ECF and 6 games with the champs

[Spurs m8]

He's literally paid to be an idiot haha

Even he doesn't believe what he puts in the media...

It's why the media are moronic and why NBA fans are so stupid....the dumbest fans are the ones that watch the bullshit shows and actually care about their fake narratives and takes.

You just know bron stans lap the media up or at least used too a lot...it's a big part of why they're so stupid and brainwashed themselves.

[WhiteKyrie]

The longevity argument is stupid, do they realize Michael retired purposely the last two years of his prime to try to play another professional sport?

He was more durable, mentally and physically than LeBron. Besides breaking his foot, a freak accident in his second year, and his knee injury at 39 years old after three years of not playing professional basketball, he was healthier, and went out there every single game. Didn’t take mental and physical sabbaticals during the regular season, or conserve himself on defense and not play it.

Do they realize if he wasn’t bored from winning three straight championships and not having a single person to challenge him individually, after he literally dog walked every single competitor to his throne …

that in combo with his dad being murdered and wanting him to play baseball was why he left, not an actual longevity or breaking down issue.

Have any of you here ever lost your father unexpectedly at a relatively young age in your late 20s or 30s? I unfortunately have. On top of that were they murdered? Do you know what kind of affect that has on a person? Especially somebody who is close to their father?

Did they expect him to keep playing in 1999, 2000, and 2001 when Jerry Krause and Scottie Pippen as narcissistic and egotistical and selfish as they are broke up the dynasty Bulls probably a season or two early where they probably would’ve won another championship?

Do they not realize the fact that he did retire to do other things in 1994, 1995, 1999, 2000, 2001 and decided to come back as a player GM to increase the value of his organization that he had steaks in, they should be thanking their lucky stars. Because if he didn’t, his accumulative numbers, MVPs, scoring titles, All-Star games, defensive first teams, wouldn’t be within reach of anybody. And he’s already this figure that you probably can’t surpass unless you have an absolutely perfect career and do it longer than the sheer perfect career of Jordan‘s 13 seasons as a Chicago Bull.

Kareem needed superior players for him to be considered a winner. Mike dragged and even molded his sidekick. LeBron had to jump from roster to roster with manipulated top end MVP caliber talent to be considered a winner.

Jordan meanwhile cultivated an entire winning culture around him. To the point they were even moderately successful, although with some improve roster pieces, his first year of retirement.

There is no debate or comparison. LeBron and the rest are battling and duking it out for second place.

[BarberSchool]

He made a 40 minute video about it https://youtu.be/ijdbWlHOHrM
I never knew who Nick Wright was until I clicked on this link.

And then I said “oh so Nick Wright is that stick figure huge nose jawless f@g from ESPN that nobody takes seriously?” “His MF opinion means nothing, he just trying to get talked about with a “hot take”, motherfu@k this disingenuous grandstanding little b!tch.”

Nick Wright is like a small, phony, vindictive, g@y, charmless version of Tony Reali.

Between this sad excuse for a man Wright, the little Hindu guy with the Rick Moranis face, and all the Jewish guys who never played sports (shoot to Gottlieb and Hubie Brown, yall real ones), ESPN has devolved so badly the last decade. It’s really insane how their on air “talent” is this pathetic, and this bad. Who hires all these guys ? Rick Moranis’ character from Ghostbusters ?

[WhiteKyrie]

Nick is also a libtard. Dude got swindled into raising a POS black man’s responsibilities with his now wife :roll: dude is the definition of cuck. He looks more qualified to be arguing dungeons and dragons than the NBA. If he showed up for pick up ball, he wouldn’t even touch the rock. Like come on

[Axe]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FYcj41tUsAAZGU0?format=jpg&name=900x900


Good list so far, but I would put Jordan at 2, Kareem at 3.


Only deranged LeBron haters put LeBron outside the TOP ONE.

Biased LeBron critics say LeBron is 1b or at worst 2.

Don't need to listen to what retards think since their opinions die out with time.
Curry at #10 seems dubious imho. He should be somewhere closer to 15.

[sdot_thadon]

The Real question is, wtf does anyone care? What makes him the end, all be all authority on anything, let alone Stephen A or Skip Bayless. Hot take: none of those guys believe the shit they say on TV for ratings. As far as his ranking? It's reasonable if you can see his point of view and criteria. Mj, Kareem, and Lebron are the 3 guys with the strongest goat cases imo and I'm not sold on either of the 3 being definitively ahead of the other 2. That's the top tier.

[sdot_thadon]

Nick is also a libtard. Dude got swindled into raising a POS black man’s responsibilities with his now wife :roll: dude is the definition of cuck. He looks more qualified to be arguing dungeons and dragons than the NBA. If he showed up for pick up ball, he wouldn’t even touch the rock. Like come on

He definitely got all of your emotions involved. Mission accomplished.

[bison]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FYcj41tUsAAZGU0?format=jpg&name=900x900

Where’s Wilt?

[sdot_thadon]

Where’s Wilt?

Guess the last 50 years thing is a cute way to avoid ranking Russell, Wilt and Oscar etc.

[DidUSaySomethin]

The longevity argument is stupid, do they realize Michael retired purposely the last two years of his prime to try to play another professional sport?

He was more durable, mentally and physically than LeBron. Besides breaking his foot, a freak accident in his second year, and his knee injury at 39 years old after three years of not playing professional basketball, he was healthier, and went out there every single game. Didn’t take mental and physical sabbaticals during the regular season, or conserve himself on defense and not play it.

Do they realize if he wasn’t bored from winning three straight championships and not having a single person to challenge him individually, after he literally dog walked every single competitor to his throne …

that in combo with his dad being murdered and wanting him to play baseball was why he left

Favre played the day after his dad died.

[HoopsNY]

He seems to favor career accomplishments and longevity more. For that reason, you can't fault him for putting MJ at 3rd. Granted, Wright is a bozo, but he explained himself in the beginning of the video.

[3ba11]

He seems to favor career accomplishments and longevity more. For that reason, you can't fault him for putting MJ at 3rd. Granted, Wright is a bozo, but he explained himself in the beginning of the video.


Playing at a lower level for longer (longevity) isn't a criteria for goat and never has been... :confusedshrug:

And Lebron never beat 6 Finals teams..

He never 3-peated (this was the original accomplishment that put MJ over Bird/Magic)...

He never win DPOY or 10 scoring titles.. He never won 5 MVP's or 6 FMVP's despite 5 extra seasons... He never won 70 games and the title... He never had 9 seasons of 2-way excellence (1st team All-NBA and 1st team defense)..

You can list Lebron's higher number of All-NBA, but were they accompanied 1st team defense, scoring title or anything else?... See that's the point - Jordan's accomplishments were more DOMINANT.. Jordan average 35 as DPOY, which is 8 points more than Hakeem's 27 as DPOY (the next highest guy) - Jordan's dominance was unmatched..

Lots of guys win the Finals, but do they defeat maximum defensive attention in the process (carry scoring load)??.. Or do they have a juggernaut teammate that dominates alongside them?

Again, Jordan's degree of dominance is unmatched - who cares about dominating less for longer (longevity)..

Btw, the only other "accomplishment" is Lebron's 8 straight Finals but that didn't start until the "decision" to form super-teams in the weakest conference ever (the 2010's East was supposed to be wide open for 1-star teams to continue winning just like Iverson, Kidd, Dwight or 07' Lebron).

[WhiteKyrie]

Favre played the day after his dad died.

He was murdered or died abruptly and shockingly? They were as close to one another as Mike and his pops?

[HoopsNY]

Playing at a lower level for longer (longevity) isn't a criteria for goat and never has been... :confusedshrug:

And Lebron never beat 6 Finals teams..

He never 3-peated (this was the original accomplishment that put MJ over Bird/Magic)...

He never win DPOY or 10 scoring titles.. He never won 5 MVP's... He never won 6 FMVP's... He never won 70 games and the title... He never had 9 seasons of 2-way excellence (1st team All-NBA and 1st team defense)..

You can list Lebron's higher number of All-NBA but were they accompanied 1st team defense, scoring title or anything else? See that's the point - Jordan's accomplishments were more DOMINANT.. Jordan average 35 as DPOY, which is 8 points more than Hakeem's 27 as DPOY (the next highest guy) - Jordan's dominance was unmatched..

Lots of guys win the Finals, but do they defeat maximum defensive attention in the process (carry scoring load)??.. Or do they have a juggernaut teammate that dominates alongside them?

Again, Jordan's degree of dominance is unmatched - who cares about dominating less for longer (longevity)..

Btw, the only other "accomplishment" is Lebron's 8 straight Finals but that didn't start until the "decision" to form super-teams in the weakest conference ever (the 3010's East was supposed to be wide open for 1-star teams to continue winning just like Iverson, Kidd, Dwight or 07' Lebron.

You're preaching to the choir. I'm not debating any of that. However, there are arguments to be made for what LeBron was able to do in his time. And since he's been able to keep a sustained prime with numerous accomplishments, then it's fair.

I don't agree with him, but I understand where he's coming from. The scary part is imagining if MJ hadn't retired in '93 and had '94 and '95 on his resume instead of '01 and '02. We'd probably see one more title, one more MVP, 2 more All-Defensive 1st Team selections, 2 more All-NBA 1st Team selections, and one more FMVP.

Wright knows that; that's why he doesn't mention it. But to his credit, we can't go on what MJ would have done. He rightfully mentions in the beginning of the video that Mj did so much in a short amount of time, which is to his credit, not his detriment.

[3ba11]

He was murdered or died abruptly and shockingly? They were as close to one another as Mike and his pops?


People don't realize that if Jordan had lost to Barkley, he would never have retired.

His unprecedented dominance gave him the luxury of retiring and mourning his Dad

Even after his Dad died, Jordan and Phil met to see what Jordan's plans were... Jordan asked Phil to present new challenges and Phil couldn't, so Jordan retired.. This is well-documented

[TheMan]

Playing at a lower level for longer (longevity) isn't a criteria for goat and never has been... :confusedshrug:

And Lebron never beat 6 Finals teams..

He never 3-peated (this was the original accomplishment that put MJ over Bird/Magic)...

He never win DPOY or 10 scoring titles.. He never won 5 MVP's or 6 FMVP's despite 5 extra seasons... He never won 70 games and the title... He never had 9 seasons of 2-way excellence (1st team All-NBA and 1st team defense)..

You can list Lebron's higher number of All-NBA, but were they accompanied 1st team defense, scoring title or anything else?... See that's the point - Jordan's accomplishments were more DOMINANT.. Jordan average 35 as DPOY, which is 8 points more than Hakeem's 27 as DPOY (the next highest guy) - Jordan's dominance was unmatched..

Lots of guys win the Finals, but do they defeat maximum defensive attention in the process (carry scoring load)??.. Or do they have a juggernaut teammate that dominates alongside them?

Again, Jordan's degree of dominance is unmatched - who cares about dominating less for longer (longevity)..

Btw, the only other "accomplishment" is Lebron's 8 straight Finals but that didn't start until the "decision" to form super-teams in the weakest conference ever (the 2010's East was supposed to be wide open for 1-star teams to continue winning just like Iverson, Kidd, Dwight or 07' Lebron).

When you state clear facts like this, I agree with your points more often than not...but you often attack LeBron for nonsensical stuff, that's when you just come off as a hater.

[sdot_thadon]

He seems to favor career accomplishments and longevity more. For that reason, you can't fault him for putting MJ at 3rd. Granted, Wright is a bozo, but he explained himself in the beginning of the video.

One of the wonderful things about actually being old enough to have witnessed most of Mjs career is we also got to hear the goat arguments on the way up for him. Alot of guys here poo pooing longevity arguments for Jabbar and Lebron fail to realize that exact argument was used to separate Mj from Bird and Magic in these same debates initially. He didn't have 6 rings at that point and even once he did I never heard that argument for goat because he didn't stand alone with 6 and he still doesn't to this day. Bird and Magic routinely saw lack of longevity as a reason they weren't the goat. Guys were penalized for having no rings like Barkley, and others like Wilt took hits for only being able to manage 2 in the face of Russell's 11. There's so many different ways to approach these lists.

[Cyrus334]

Unquestionably more coherent than the "argument" jordon extremist alts have for jordon being better than LeBron but Bill Russell not being better than jordon.

To be fair, Russell is always a hard one to rank because of how dramatically different basketball was back then. There were like, 8 teams lol. You obviously can't ignore 11 ****ing championships but the stats and level of competition don't help Russell's case at all. I mean think about it, Lebronies give Jordan flack for playing against "plumbers" and "office workers", I can't imagine what they'd say about the dudes playing in Russel's era.

[HoopsNY]

One of the wonderful things about actually being old enough to have witnessed most of Mjs career is we also got to hear the goat arguments on the way up for him. Alot of guys here poo pooing longevity arguments for Jabbar and Lebron fail to realize that exact argument was used to separate Mj from Bird and Magic in these same debates initially. He didn't have 6 rings at that point and even once he did I never heard that argument for goat because he didn't stand alone with 6 and he still doesn't to this day. Bird and Magic routinely saw lack of longevity as a reason they weren't the goat. Guys were penalized for having no rings like Barkley, and others like Wilt took hits for only being able to manage 2 in the face of Russell's 11. There's so many different ways to approach these lists.

Yea this is fair. What got MJ that label (as early as 1991), was his level of dominance. But you're right, if we're going to weigh things objectively, then the lists can go either way.

[sdot_thadon]

Yea this is fair. What got MJ that label (as early as 1991), was his level of dominance. But you're right, if we're going to weigh things objectively, then the lists can go either way.
Another thing is MJ's true goat case is almost NEVER discussed here. He's not the goat because of stats, prime, peak, rings or longevity. His case was always that he had the best mixture of all the categories and was at least approaching the top in each. Why don't we hear this anymore? Easy. Because it is also Lebron's same real argument, he's right there in most categories whether ahead or behind but has the best longevity case ever, unless your goat debate contains their entire basketball career at every level, because then Jabbar is untouchable.

[3ba11]

One of the wonderful things about actually being old enough to have witnessed most of Mjs career is we also got to hear the goat arguments on the way up for him. Alot of guys here poo pooing longevity arguments for Jabbar and Lebron fail to realize that exact argument was used to separate Mj from Bird and Magic in these same debates initially. He didn't have 6 rings at that point and even once he did I never heard that argument for goat because he didn't stand alone with 6 and he still doesn't to this day. Bird and Magic routinely saw lack of longevity as a reason they weren't the goat. Guys were penalized for having no rings like Barkley, and others like Wilt took hits for only being able to manage 2 in the face of Russell's 11. There's so many different ways to approach these lists.


So you were a little child for Jordan's career - this explains why you don't remember what actually happened

The 3-peat was the holy grail at the time.... Once Jordan 3-peated, he was considered better than Magic/Bird and GOAT.

This is the historical record - every sports magazine and newspaper was singing this tune

Btw, no one cared that his 80's teams had no cast - everyone said that he needed to "elevate" bums into McHale and Worthy like Bird/Magic did.. So that's what he did - he elevated a Wiggins-level player into HOF.. Wiggins was actually an 18-24 ppg player outside the Warriors' system, while Pippen was a 14 ppg dunker that couldn't score outside the triangle

[guy]

One of the wonderful things about actually being old enough to have witnessed most of Mjs career is we also got to hear the goat arguments on the way up for him. Alot of guys here poo pooing longevity arguments for Jabbar and Lebron fail to realize that exact argument was used to separate Mj from Bird and Magic in these same debates initially. He didn't have 6 rings at that point and even once he did I never heard that argument for goat because he didn't stand alone with 6 and he still doesn't to this day. Bird and Magic routinely saw lack of longevity as a reason they weren't the goat. Guys were penalized for having no rings like Barkley, and others like Wilt took hits for only being able to manage 2 in the face of Russell's 11. There's so many different ways to approach these lists.

Really? I grew up during that era and don’t remember at all that being an argument for Jordan. It doesn’t even make sense. Jordan was regularly ranked ahead of them by the first retirement when he clearly didn’t have their longevity and even by the second retirement, there longevity was basically the same - all 3 played 13 seasons, and about 900 regular season games.

Furthermore, if longevity was that much of an argument Kareem would’ve been considered the GOAT by way more people. He was actually being regularly ranked below not just Jordan, but Russell, Wilt and Magic as well on a lot of lists. For whatever reason, he’s gotten way more GOAT claims now vs back then which logically wouldn’t make sense unless the criteria for most has changed, which I guess it has.

[guy]

Another thing is MJ's true goat case is almost NEVER discussed here. He's not the goat because of stats, prime, peak, rings or longevity. His case was always that he had the best mixture of all the categories and was at least approaching the top in each. Why don't we hear this anymore? Easy. Because it is also Lebron's same real argument, he's right there in most categories whether ahead or behind but has the best longevity case ever, unless your goat debate contains their entire basketball career at every level, because then Jabbar is untouchable.

Lebron trails Russell, Jordan, Kareem, Magic, Kobe, Duncan and is tied with Shaq and Steph when it comes to rings. So he ranks relatively low vs his historic peers in the category that most people find most important.

[ClipperRevival]

You're going to take bball advice from this guy?

https://global-uploads.webflow.com/5f1af76ed86d6771ad48324b/5f9999cad89d6357603dd503_Nick%20Wright.jpg

[Axe]

So you were a little child for Jordan's career - this explains why you don't remember what actually happened

The 3-peat was the holy grail at the time.... Once Jordan 3-peated, he was considered better than Magic/Bird and GOAT.

This is the historical record - every sports magazine and newspaper was singing this tune

Btw, no one cared that his 80's teams had no cast - everyone said that he needed to "elevate" bums into McHale and Worthy like Bird/Magic did.. So that's what he did - he elevated a Wiggins-level player into HOF.. Wiggins was actually an 18-24 ppg player outside the Warriors' system, while Pippen was a 14 ppg dunker that couldn't score outside the triangle
https://etc.usf.edu/clipart/37100/37142/frac_01-09_37142_lg.gif

[FKAri]

You're going to take bball advice from this guy?

https://global-uploads.webflow.com/5f1af76ed86d6771ad48324b/5f9999cad89d6357603dd503_Nick%20Wright.jpg

Ever seen a basketball analyst that DIDN'T look like a complete dunce?

[ClipperRevival]

Ever seen a basketball analyst that DIDN'T look like a complete dunce?

Yeah but most of them played ball at some level. Like Van Gundy played college ball, so did Stephen A Smith. Wright didn't play nothing. He doesn't know sh*t about bball because he never played. He's nothing but an observer who never competed at anything physical.

[HoopsNY]

Really? I grew up during that era and don’t remember at all that being an argument for Jordan. It doesn’t even make sense. Jordan was regularly ranked ahead of them by the first retirement when he clearly didn’t have their longevity and even by the second retirement, there longevity was basically the same - all 3 played 13 seasons, and about 900 regular season games.

Furthermore, if longevity was that much of an argument Kareem would’ve been considered the GOAT by way more people. He was actually being regularly ranked below not just Jordan, but Russell, Wilt and Magic as well on a lot of lists. For whatever reason, he’s gotten way more GOAT claims now vs back then which logically wouldn’t make sense unless the criteria for most has changed, which I guess it has.

I think that's sdot's point. Given that he hadn't played as long as those guys, he still was unanimously considered the GOAT. It goes back to his dominance and the fact he was able to 3-peat. By the end of the '93 season, MJ had only played in 8 full seasons.

[Full Court]

Yeah but most of them played ball at some level. Like Van Gundy played college ball, so did Stephen A Smith. Wright didn't play nothing. He doesn't know sh*t about bball because he never played. He's nothing but an observer who never competed at anything physical.

You don't necessarily have to be a player to be a good analyst, but in Wright's case, he's a complete moron.

[ClipperRevival]

You don't necessarily have to be a player to be a good analyst, but in Wright's case, he's a complete moron.

True.

But in Wright's case, he is. Just obvious the more you listen to him.

[guy]

I think that's sdot's point. Given that he hadn't played as long as those guys, he still was unanimously considered the GOAT. It goes back to his dominance and the fact he was able to 3-peat. By the end of the '93 season, MJ had only played in 8 full seasons.

I read it as Jordan was getting longevity arguments over Magic and Bird back then the same way Kareem and Lebron are getting those arguments over Jordan. Which like I said, doesn’t make sense so maybe I’m misunderstanding.

[sdot_thadon]

Really? I grew up during that era and don’t remember at all that being an argument for Jordan. It doesn’t even make sense. Jordan was regularly ranked ahead of them by the first retirement when he clearly didn’t have their longevity and even by the second retirement, there longevity was basically the same - all 3 played 13 seasons, and about 900 regular season games.

Furthermore, if longevity was that much of an argument Kareem would’ve been considered the GOAT by way more people. He was actually being regularly ranked below not just Jordan, but Russell, Wilt and Magic as well on a lot of lists. For whatever reason, he’s gotten way more GOAT claims now vs back then which logically wouldn’t make sense unless the criteria for most has changed, which I guess it has.

I do, I was a kid who loved the historical aspect of the game almost instantly and have enjoyed goat conversations since middle school. Magic retired at what 30-31 years old? Bird had alot of trouble with his back and his was more related to a shorter prime than the others. Kareem was battling for it in the 80s when Wilt was considered the GOAT. He just wasn't well liked in media circles. And let's be honest longevity only gets downplayed because it doesn't benefit Mj. And I used to be ok with that as a young fan, but it's ridiculous to try to corral the criteria to fit one guy rather than fit the question.


Lebron trails Russell, Jordan, Kareem, Magic, Kobe, Duncan and is tied with Shaq and Steph when it comes to rings. So he ranks relatively low vs his historic peers in the category that most people find most important.And if you're being honest with yourself all those guys had careers that started off alot faster with rosters of a quality Lebron wouldn't see until the decision, and of course he was crucified for going out and getting the level of roster everyone else you list was handed one way or another. Russell made the Celtics the team they were but they sent like a whole starting 5 and a 6th man to the hof lol. Mj joined a lowly Bulls team that suffered until it had multiple lottery picks in one draft and then took off a few years later. Kareem was the most dominate and anticipated player ever up to his rookie season but he got paired with a fellow goat candidate early on and won, later had some of the best squads ever. Kobe was drafted and paired with Shaq and got core veterans from several recent champions, he had great rosters. Duncan joined David Robinson on a contender that took advantage of Robinsons injury to tank for Duncan, profit. Shaq and kobe were teammates so no rehash necessary. And even Steph had a unique situation when an injury tanked his contract value and the Warriors were able to afford to keep all their budding talent together due to Curry being on a food stamp deal lol. You gotta consider the whole picture when you have these debates.

[3ba11]

Lebron had 3 years to develop his team into a veteran high seed before entering the 06' Playoffs - he literally never had a bad playoff team/low seed until 2021, where he lost in the 1st Round like nearly every low seed does... The all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas added a 22/5/5 all-defender and the future COY to make the 06' Playoffs - that's a comparable cast than Jordan's title teams

[SATAN]

kenneth griffin in the comment section. :milton

[3ba11]

.

And if you're being honest with yourself all those guys had careers that started off alot faster with rosters of a quality Lebron wouldn't see until the decision, and of course he was crucified for going out and getting the level of roster everyone else you list was handed one way or another.





Jordan was handed an 8 ppg rookie (hardest path), while Lebron was handed prime Wade/Bosh and Year 1 favorite status (easiest path possible)

and lebron was HANDED the east all-star center in 2005 but missed the playoffs..

the all-star duo of lebron/zydrunas were HANDED a 22/5/5 all-defender (hughes) to make the 06' Playoffs as a veteran high seed.. Lebron had stolen Arenas' sidekick and then beat him with it.

Lebron's "decision" stole organic chips from Durant in 12', and Duncan/Curry after that.. His super-teams had locked down the league, so people were happy that Durant got to hand-pick the preseason favorite in 17' after Lebron did it the previous 6 years (11-16')

[sdot_thadon]

Lebron had 3 years to develop his team into a veteran high seed before entering the 06' Playoffs - he literally never had a bad playoff team/low seed until 2021, where he lost in the 1st Round like nearly every low seed does... The all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas added a 22/5/5 all-defender and the future COY to make the 06' Playoffs - that's a comparable cast than Jordan's title teams

Not even close, there's no one alive that takes either of those guys over Pippen, especially considering Big Zs well documented foot issues and Hughes was injured in their 07 finals run so we'll never know if he was a suitable sidekick. What we do know however, is Mj had this outstanding "22/5/5 all-defender" in Washington and missed the playoffs with him....in what you yourself call the worst east ever. Food for thought. I will say this, give Lebron Pippen and Grant during that window and they would be champs.


Jordan was handed an 8 ppg rookie (hardest path), while Lebron was handed prime Wade/Bosh and Year 1 favorite status (easiest path possible)

and lebron was HANDED the east all-star center in 2005 but missed the playoffs..

the all-star duo of lebron/zydrunas were HANDED a 22/5/5 all-defender (hughes) to make the 06' Playoffs as a veteran high seed.. Lebron had stolen Arenas' sidekick and then beat him with it.

Never forget, the Bulls had 2 lottery picks in the same year that just so happend to turn into the no.2 and no.3 of the 1st 3peat.

[WhiteKyrie]

You're going to take bball advice from this guy?

https://global-uploads.webflow.com/5f1af76ed86d6771ad48324b/5f9999cad89d6357603dd503_Nick%20Wright.jpg
Bingo Bango

[3ba11]

.
Lebron coveted the 22/5/5 all-defender:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-15-2021/t3TEzx.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-15-2021/LIlDOj.gif




Not even close, there's no one alive that takes either of those guys over Pippen, especially considering Big Zs well documented foot issues and Hughes was injured in their 07 finals run so we'll never know if he was a suitable sidekick. What we do know however, is Mj had this outstanding "22/5/5 all-defender" in Washington and missed the playoffs with him....in what you yourself call the worst east ever. Food for thought. I will say this, give Lebron Pippen and Grant during that window and they would be champs.



Never forget, the Bulls had 2 lottery picks in the same year that just so happend to turn into the no.2 and no.3 of the 1st 3peat.



88' Pippen....... 8 ppg rookie
05' Hughes..... 22/5/5 and 1st team defense.. coveted by Bron


^^^ no one would take rookie Pippen over Hughes, who had playoff chops too..

We know that Lebron needs ready-made guys like Hughes because his skillset lacks the teammate development and fits to win organically - his frontcourt ball-dominance imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win.

Ultimately, the point is that Lebron started off with much better playoff teams and players, yet Jordan still beat him to titles...

Specifically, the 09' Cavs had the 3rd-ranked defense compared to 19th for the 90' Bulls, while Mo demolished Pippen across the board offensively (PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48, scoring, efficiency).. So Lebron had a better cast on both sides of the ball, yet Jordan still beat him to titles.. Jordan won the next year in 91', while Lebron lost again in 10' despite adding Jamison/Shaq to a 66-win league favorite..

[sdot_thadon]

.
Lebron coveted the 22/5/5 all-defender:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-15-2021/t3TEzx.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-15-2021/LIlDOj.gif







88' Pippen....... 8 ppg rookie
05' Hughes..... 22/5/5 and 1st team defense.. coveted by Bron


^^^ no one would take rookie Pippen over Hughes, who had playoff chops too..

We know that Lebron needs ready-made guys like Hughes because his skillset lacks the teammate development and fits to win organically - his frontcourt ball-dominance imposes spot-up roles that stall young players, thereby needing ready-made stars to win.

Ultimately, the point is that Lebron started off with much better playoff teams and players, yet Jordan still beat him to titles...

Specifically, the 09' Cavs had the 3rd-ranked defense compared to 19th for the 90' Bulls, while Mo demolished Pippen across the board offensively (PER, BPM, VORP, WS/48, scoring, efficiency).. So Lebron had a better cast on both sides of the ball, yet Jordan still beat him to titles.. Jordan won the next year in 91', while Lebron lost again in 10' despite adding Jamison/Shaq to a 66-win league favorite..

So if Hughes was this great monolith of a player, why couldn't Mj make the playoffs with him? He wasn't even the 2nd best guy on the team so Lebrons 2nd option was Mjs 3rd or 4th and he couldn't make the playoffs. According to you he made "8ppg" Pippen into a great player, so he couldn't turn the higher quality "22/5/5 all-defender" into something useful??

[Axe]

Poor nick wright getting bashed left and right just because he doesn't have dad killer at #1. :ohwell:

[3ba11]

So if Hughes was this great monolith of a player, why couldn't Mj make the playoffs with him? He wasn't even the 2nd best guy on the team so Lebrons 2nd option was Mjs 3rd or 4th and he couldn't make the playoffs. According to you he made "8ppg" Pippen into a great player, so he couldn't turn the higher quality "22/5/5 all-defender" into something useful??


The 2002 Wizards were expected to win 18 more games than the prior year with MJ in the fold, and they met expectation...

Otoh, Lebron at a similar age missed the play-in this year with the preseason favorite, big 3 super-team (goat underachievement)..

You're forgetting that inferior brand of ball will cause favored talent to underachieve... That's why Lebron's preseason favorites fell to Finals underdog or loser for 6 straight years (11-16'), except the Ray Allen miracle - only a miracle stopped 6 years in a row of falling from favorite to underdog or loser..

In addition to underachieving the preseason expectation from 11-16', Lebron couldn't win the East with homecourt in 09' and 10', while missing the play-in this year and losing in the 1st Round with the preseason favorite in 21'

He simply has the greatest resume of underachieving the expectation in history - again, it's due to bad brand of ball - frontcourt ball-dominance that can't develop young players or have good chemistry, so he can't win organically and must be a talent-based winner (team-hopping.. all-star team strategy).. He never really learned how to win (organic.. chemistry) and only learned to team-hop (talent-based winning).

Btw, I guess the point is that a young ball-handler like Pippen would never develop alongside Lebron just like Hughes, Ingram and weak fits with Wade, Westbrook, etc

[SATAN]

HOW DARE ANYONE QUESTION MY HERO'S GREATNESS!!! :mad::mad::mad:

:oldlol:

[coin24]

How can anyone sit and watch nick wrong, “bru” and that panel of total losers speculate rubbish is beyond me

[TheGoatest]

Damn... :oldlol:
6 pages in less than a day. :roll:
The alts have certainly been more active than his hero from 1993-95 and 1998-2001. Absolutely STEAMING. :mad:

[sdot_thadon]

I guess I actually have to watch his trash ass to see what reasoning he offers for his choices. I am not a fan, nor of guys like Bayless either. They are just opposite sides of the same coin and you guys allow them to make a handsome living off what you do here on ish daily.

[Johnny32]

I guess I actually have to watch his trash ass to see what reasoning he offers for his choices. I am not a fan, nor of guys like Bayless either. They are just opposite sides of the same coin and you guys allow them to make a handsome living off what you do here on ish daily.

he used to speak facts. idk now after his own show.

[8Ball]

Damn... :oldlol:
6 pages in less than a day. :roll:
The alts have certainly been more active than his hero from 1993-95 and 1998-2001. Absolutely STEAMING. :mad:

Nick Wright gonna lead the charge for the next 40 years to keep putting the truth out there.

[SATAN]

Nick Wright gonna lead the charge for the next 40 years to keep putting the truth out there.

He ranks Kareem number 1. He's a sellout.

[bison]

He's literally paid to be an idiot haha

Even he doesn't believe what he puts in the media...

It's why the media are moronic and why NBA fans are so stupid....the dumbest fans are the ones that watch the bullshit shows and actually care about their fake narratives and takes.

You just know bron stans lap the media up or at least used too a lot...it's a big part of why they're so stupid and brainwashed themselves.

This.

Announcing MJ as #3 is meant to get people to talk not about basketball, but about Nick Wright. He is looking for a career jump and this is the way to get people to talk and think about him. Real hoop fans can see through this. Only Bron stains think he’s a legitimate analyst and making a legitimate argument. ESPN and other media know Bron stains are fvcking stupid enough to keep giving them likes and rating and there are A LOT of Bron stain suckers out there.

[guy]

I do, I was a kid who loved the historical aspect of the game almost instantly and have enjoyed goat conversations since middle school. Magic retired at what 30-31 years old? Bird had alot of trouble with his back and his was more related to a shorter prime than the others. Kareem was battling for it in the 80s when Wilt was considered the GOAT. He just wasn't well liked in media circles. And let's be honest longevity only gets downplayed because it doesn't benefit Mj. And I used to be ok with that as a young fan, but it's ridiculous to try to corral the criteria to fit one guy rather than fit the question.

I can't really question the debates you encountered growing up, but I didn't ever hear longevity being an argument point for Jordan over those guys, and I'm pretty sure none of the major media outlets / publications ever brought up longevity for Jordan vs those guys except for maybe the Wizard years when he was pushing 40, but again at that point no one was arguing against Jordan being better then Magic and Bird. Good point on Bird's health issues, but like I said, he was pretty much universally considered greater then them when he retired the 1st time when clearly longevity wasn't an argument.



And if you're being honest with yourself all those guys had careers that started off alot faster with rosters of a quality Lebron wouldn't see until the decision, and of course he was crucified for going out and getting the level of roster everyone else you list was handed one way or another. Russell made the Celtics the team they were but they sent like a whole starting 5 and a 6th man to the hof lol. Mj joined a lowly Bulls team that suffered until it had multiple lottery picks in one draft and then took off a few years later. Kareem was the most dominate and anticipated player ever up to his rookie season but he got paired with a fellow goat candidate early on and won, later had some of the best squads ever. Kobe was drafted and paired with Shaq and got core veterans from several recent champions, he had great rosters. Duncan joined David Robinson on a contender that took advantage of Robinsons injury to tank for Duncan, profit. Shaq and kobe were teammates so no rehash necessary. And even Steph had a unique situation when an injury tanked his contract value and the Warriors were able to afford to keep all their budding talent together due to Curry being on a food stamp deal lol. You gotta consider the whole picture when you have these debates.

Okay, I don't really agree with all of that, but wasn't really arguing the reasons anyway. All those things you mentioned can be partially dictated by situation anyway, not just championships (stats, awards, etc.) You said people Jordan having the best mix of everything because he ranks near the top of everything isn't brought up as much anymore, because now Lebron has that as well. First off, it is brought up, second even if it wasn't for whatever reason, its not because Lebron does as well, because he doesn't. When it comes to the class of players he's in, he ranks low in winning i.e. championships.

[8Ball]

He ranks Kareem number 1. He's a sellout.

LeBron career not over yet.


Once Bron takes Kareem's scoring record there will be no more discussion between Kareem and Bron.

[3ba11]

I can't really question the debates you encountered growing up, but I didn't ever hear longevity being an argument point for Jordan over those guys, and I'm pretty sure none of the major media outlets / publications ever brought up longevity for Jordan vs those guys except for maybe the Wizard years when he was pushing 40, but again at that point no one was arguing against Jordan being better then Magic and Bird. Good point on Bird's health issues, but like I said, he was pretty much universally considered greater then them when he retired the 1st time when clearly longevity wasn't an argument.



Okay, I don't really agree with all of that, but wasn't really arguing the reasons anyway. All those things you mentioned can be partially dictated by situation anyway, not just championships (stats, awards, etc.) You said people Jordan having the best mix of everything because he ranks near the top of everything isn't brought up as much anymore, because now Lebron has that as well. First off, it is brought up, second even if it wasn't for whatever reason, its not because Lebron does as well, because he doesn't. When it comes to the class of players he's in, he ranks low in winning i.e. championships.


sdot will fabricate things.. you're right...NO ONE used longevity as an argument for MJ.. he's literally making shit up

[3ba11]

So if Hughes was this great monolith of a player, why couldn't Mj make the playoffs with him? He wasn't even the 2nd best guy on the team so Lebrons 2nd option was Mjs 3rd or 4th and he couldn't make the playoffs. According to you he made "8ppg" Pippen into a great player, so he couldn't turn the higher quality "22/5/5 all-defender" into something useful??


Hughes averaged 22/5/5 and made the 2nd Round alongside off-guard and elite shooter Arenas in 05'

Then Lebron's ball-dominance cratered Hughes in 06' and 07', but Lebron still had 2x all-star Zydrunas and a great defensive team... That's more than enough to win a conference that Dwight won with Rashard Lewis and an injured team.

Obviously, 40-year MJ can't be expected to do anything with Arenas, so cut the crap - 37-year Lebron just missed the play-in with the preseason favorite, so that's far worse than 40-year MJ... Lebron was the only guy to miss playoffs with Westbrook..

So anything you say about Jordan applies to Lebron far more... Any accomplishment of Lebron's is superceded by a more DOMINANT accomplishment by MJ.. For example, Lebron has more All-NBA, but no all-defense in his 30's, while Jordan had 9 seasons of 1st team All-NBA and 1st team defense (and scoring title each time) - MJ simply dominate the league more than anyone else ever has.... BY FAR.. no one is close to matching his level of domination

[Hey Yo]

nick wright
@getnickwright

"Kareem was better than MJ in high school, college, as rookies, as very young players, as very old players.

At 38 MJ was leading the Wizards to 37 wins.
At 38 Kareem was winning Finals MVP.

Kareem set the scoring record before I was born. He holds it to this day.

https://twitter.com/getnickwright/status/1551557011707412481

[3ba11]

nick wright
@getnickwright

"Kareem was better than MJ in high school, college, as rookies, as very young players, as very old players.

At 38 MJ was leading the Wizards to 37 wins.
At 38 Kareem was winning Finals MVP.

Kareem set the scoring record before I was born. He holds it to this day.

https://twitter.com/getnickwright/status/1551557011707412481


Kareem wasn't better as a very young or very old player

That's just a lie

Kareem was simply on a dynasty, so he got accolades - put old MJ on those stacked Lakers and he probably leads them in scoring while winning the same chips that Kareem did

People don't seem to realize that Jordan was on BAD TEAMS with no cast, while Kareem won rings on stacked dynasties as the 4th and 5th best player - that isn't better than Jordan

Jordan simply dominated the league FAR more than anyone else... aka who cares about All-NBA if it doesn't come with all-defense or scoring title - THAT'S goat domination

[outofstomach]

Poor nick wright getting bashed left and right just because he doesn't have dad killer at #1. :ohwell:

why are you trolling this thread?

[Hey Yo]

Kareem wasn't better as a very young or very old player

That's just a lie

Kareem was simply on a dynasty, so he got accolades - put old MJ on those stacked Lakers and he probably leads them in scoring while winning the same chips that Kareem did

People don't seem to realize that Jordan was on BAD TEAMS with no cast, while Kareem won rings on stacked dynasties as the 4th and 5th best player - that isn't better than Jordan

Jordan simply dominated the league FAR more than anyone else... aka who cares about All-NBA if it doesn't come with all-defense or scoring title - THAT'S goat domination
That's exactly what Pippen did for 5 of the of the Bulls 6 titles and in 94 w/o MJ, but you say he sucked.

Can't have it both ways, chico. Busted again, too easy.

[TheMan]

nick wright
@getnickwright

"Kareem was better than MJ in high school, college, as rookies, as very young players, as very old players.

At 38 MJ was leading the Wizards to 37 wins.
At 38 Kareem was winning Finals MVP.

Kareem set the scoring record before I was born. He holds it to this day.

https://twitter.com/getnickwright/status/1551557011707412481

Steph Curry gets a ton of shit for having one FMVP in 6 Finals yet KAJ is the GOAT with 2 FMVPs in 10 Finals??? :confusedshrug:

[8Ball]

That's exactly what Pippen did for 5 of the of the Bulls 6 titles and in 94 w/o MJ, but you say he sucked.

Can't have it both ways, chico. Busted again, too easy.

Man that's a head shot right there.


3ball claims "who cares about All-NBA if it doesn't come with all-defense"


Scottie Pippen did it for the entire 90s.

[RRR3]

Steph Curry gets a ton of shit for having one FMVP in 6 Finals yet KAJ is the GOAT with 2 FMVPs in 10 Finals??? :confusedshrug:
*3. They literally just gave Magic his FMVP one year for ratings reasons. ReLearn your history, grandpa I know you’re too senile to remember it

[TheMan]

*3. They literally just gave Magic his FMVP one year for ratings reasons. ReLearn your history, grandpa I know you’re too senile to remember it

Even if you include that one, 3* of 10? Does that sound GOAT to you?

[sdot_thadon]

Even if you include that one, 3* of 10? Does that sound GOAT to you?

Just sounds like he had a good team and others were allowed to shine alongside him. Not better or worse than one guy getting all the burn, just different. Kareem was the preeminent force in the league for a long period of time.

[HoopsNY]

Just sounds like he had a good team and others were allowed to shine alongside him. Not better or worse than one guy getting all the burn, just different. Kareem was the preeminent force in the league for a long period of time.

The Lakers made the finals 7 times from age 34 onward. I think it was more of a decline issue than allowing others to shine alongside him. I think what hurts Kareem's case is the NBA/ABA merger happening his 7th season into the league, and him missing the playoffs during his peak years despite playing alongside HOF/All-Star talent.

[3ba11]

That's exactly what Pippen did for 5 of the of the Bulls 6 titles and in 94 w/o MJ, but you say he sucked.

Can't have it both ways, chico. Busted again, too easy.


We aren't comparing sidekicks like Pippen or Klay

We're comparing Lebron's All-NBA to Jordan's, and Jordan's was more dominant because it came with scoring title and all-defense

So Jordan was just more dominant... aka Lebron wins the East and Jordan wins the LEAGUE... or Lebron has equal-scoring partners in the Finals and doesn't defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load), while Jordan wins with secondary producers and must carry the scoring load (defeat maximum defensive attention).

These are clear-cut examples of Jordan being more dominant.. No one dominated the the league like MJ

[guy]

Longevity didn't hold as much weight back then as it does today. Based on the way Kareem is ranked today, you would think he was easily considered #2 at worst back then but he wasn't.

https://www.espn.com/sportscentury/athletes.html
https://www.topendsports.com/world/lists/greatest-all-time/athletes-si-20th-century.htm

That's ESPN and Sports Illustrated, easily the 2 most relevant sports outlets back then if not still today and they don't even have Kareem as a top 25 athlete of all-time, and with the NBA in general they both have Jordan, Wilt, Russell and Magic ahead and SI also has Bird ahead.

I'm not saying that Kareem doesn't deserve to be in the discussion and that he didnt' have or didn't deserve any "GOAT" or "top 3" claims, but he wasn't this consensus top 3 player on everyone's list like he is today.

Its pretty clear that just like with the "Finals appearances" argument, longevity is holding a larger weight today because it strengthens Lebron's case, and those same people that make that argument have to retroactively apply it to the past.

There's nothing wrong with criteria changing over time, but opinions closer to when the player was actually playing means more to me vs so many years later. And its just hard for me to think a player is actually greater than what we considered him when we were closer to him actually playing.

[sdot_thadon]

I can't really question the debates you encountered growing up, but I didn't ever hear longevity being an argument point for Jordan over those guys, and I'm pretty sure none of the major media outlets / publications ever brought up longevity for Jordan vs those guys except for maybe the Wizard years when he was pushing 40, but again at that point no one was arguing against Jordan being better then Magic and Bird. Good point on Bird's health issues, but like I said, he was pretty much universally considered greater then them when he retired the 1st time when clearly longevity wasn't an argument.

Nah it was brought up long before the Wizards days, remember Magic retired at like 31. And Bird's prime years were already proven shorter than the other goats by then. We all knew he was better than them by that time but there needed to be justification to why he was "greater" being better for longer was an easy one that didn't diminish Bird and Magic as players because today's toxic debates weren't a thing yet. Sports illustrated would pose the question every now and then. Slam magazine when it hit the scene, can't remember if sporting news ever ran the debates.



Okay, I don't really agree with all of that, but wasn't really arguing the reasons anyway. All those things you mentioned can be partially dictated by situation anyway, not just championships (stats, awards, etc.) You said people Jordan having the best mix of everything because he ranks near the top of everything isn't brought up as much anymore, because now Lebron has that as well. First off, it is brought up, second even if it wasn't for whatever reason, its not because Lebron does as well, because he doesn't. When it comes to the class of players he's in, he ranks low in winning i.e. championships.
I never understood how winning 4 chips as the main man could be considered "low", hell that's only 2 less than Mj, who is nearly doubled by Russell. Who else has 4 fvmps in the top 10? Only Mj and Russell gets a nod because he's there as well. But yeah situation has a ton to do with every accolade, not just Lebron's, not just MJ's. I can respect anyone's views even if we disagree as long as they approach them all with the same grading curve.



sdot will fabricate things.. you're right...NO ONE used longevity as an argument for MJ.. he's literally making shit up
Oh the irony.


Hughes averaged 22/5/5 and made the 2nd Round alongside off-guard and elite shooter Arenas in 05'

Then Lebron's ball-dominance cratered Hughes in 06' and 07', but Lebron still had 2x all-star Zydrunas and a great defensive team... That's more than enough to win a conference that Dwight won with Rashard Lewis and an injured team.
Lebron's ball dominance in 06 and 07 right? Lebron in 06 took his career high in attempts at 23 which was astronomical when you consider 38 year old Mj took 21 a game, go figure. Somehow 38 year old Mj also posted a higher usage rate than Lebron ever has in any season, talk about ball dominance.....


So anything you say about Jordan applies to Lebron far more... Any accomplishment of Lebron's is superceded by a more DOMINANT accomplishment by MJ.. For example, Lebron has more All-NBA, but no all-defense in his 30's, while Jordan had 9 seasons of 1st team All-NBA and 1st team defense (and scoring title each time) - MJ simply dominate the league more than anyone else ever has.... BY FAR.. no one is close to matching his level of domination
And you're right, he did all of that. The thing is he didn't have as many great players at his position to challenge him as Lebron did. There have been some incredible small forwards pass through the league in Lebron's time.

[guy]

Nah it was brought up long before the Wizards days, remember Magic retired at like 31. And Bird's prime years were already proven shorter than the other goats by then. We all knew he was better than them by that time but there needed to be justification to why he was "greater" being better for longer was an easy one that didn't diminish Bird and Magic as players because today's toxic debates weren't a thing yet. Sports illustrated would pose the question every now and then. Slam magazine when it hit the scene, can't remember if sporting news ever ran the debates.


Okay, like I said I don't recall that at all. And I don't even recall longevity in general meaning much. Curious if anyone else does. And again, it didn't even make sense since by the 1st retirement it wasn't an advantage for him and by the 2nd retirement, it wasn't really either depending on the angle you look at it from (age-yes, health-yes, actual number of games/seasons - no).

And in general, neither of those 3 were considered to have "short" careers, just maybe that they could've played longer if it wasn't for certain reasons. 13 seasons was considered pretty normal at the time.



I never understood how winning 4 chips as the main man could be considered "low", hell that's only 2 less than Mj, who is nearly doubled by Russell. Who else has 4 fvmps in the top 10? Only Mj and Russell gets a nod because he's there as well. But yeah situation has a ton to do with every accolade, not just Lebron's, not just MJ's. I can respect anyone's views even if we disagree as long as they approach them all with the same grading curve.


Well I was just thinking about rings in general for the top players not just as the main man. Fair or not, alot of people don't separate the two. Either way, Russell isn't in the conversation for "best mix". If its between Jordan and Lebron, well Jordan has 50% more, which is a big difference in probably the most important category

[sdot_thadon]

Okay, like I said I don't recall that at all. And I don't even recall longevity in general meaning much. Curious if anyone else does. And again, it didn't even make sense since by the 1st retirement it wasn't an advantage for him and by the 2nd retirement, it wasn't really either depending on the angle you look at it from (age-yes, health-yes, actual number of games/seasons - no).

And in general, neither of those 3 were considered to have "short" careers, just maybe that they could've played longer if it wasn't for certain reasons. 13 seasons was considered pretty normal at the time.

Definitely short compared to the measuring stick of the category, which was Kareem and now Lebron. If being great at something for a longer period didn't mean anything we wouldn't hear Mjs all defense count vs Lebrons now would we? MJ's time as an all league defender was longer than Lebron's clearly. One could argue at his absolute best as a defender Lebron was better, but it didn't last very long.



Well I was just thinking about rings in general for the top players not just as the main man. Fair or not, alot of people don't separate the two. Either way, Russell isn't in the conversation for "best mix". If its between Jordan and Lebron, well Jordan has 50% more, which is a big difference in probably the most important category
Right it isn't particularly fair because people decide when it's convenient to separate the 2. I never heard Kareem or Magic get half the shit Kobe and Shaq get all time for being teammates. Used to be that you had to win one as a great player and if you won multiple times you couldn't be denied after that. Now days we get " well he only won 4" as if that's a bad thing. Only a few guys in the top 10 have 4 rings and even less have them as the best player. It doesn't make much sense to me to see that as a negative when Russell basically laps the field.

And why isn't Russell in the running for best mix? Because of scoring? He dominated the game just as much from his side of the floor. And he won 2 chips as the coach while still playing. That's goat shit lol.

[Hey Yo]

We aren't comparing sidekicks like Pippen or Klay

We're comparing Lebron's All-NBA to Jordan's, and Jordan's was more dominant because it came with scoring title and all-defense

So Jordan was just more dominant... aka Lebron wins the East and Jordan wins the LEAGUE... or Lebron has equal-scoring partners in the Finals and doesn't defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load), while Jordan wins with secondary producers and must carry the scoring load (defeat maximum defensive attention).

These are clear-cut examples of Jordan being more dominant.. No one dominated the the league like MJ

You gave 2 criterias on how a player should be judged. Pippen achieved one of those for the Bulls, 7 out of 9x in the 90's... of course there's no comparison to Klay. So when you say that Pippen sucked, you're basically saying the 90's was watered down so bad that a player "like him" could get such high praise.

You stepped in your own bullshit and got busted.

[3ba11]

You gave 2 criterias on how a player should be judged. Pippen achieved one of those for the Bulls, 7 out of 9x in the 90's... of course there's no comparison to Klay. So when you say that Pippen sucked, you're basically saying the 90's was watered down so bad that a player "like him" could get such high praise.

You stepped in your own bullshit and got busted.


We aren't talking about Pippen's inflated accolades

We're talking about how Lebron wasn't as dominant as MJ based on all the things I mentioned that you haven't refuted.. Jordan was obviously far more dominant than Lebron and no one dominated the NBA as much as Jordan

[3ba11]

You gave 2 criterias on how a player should be judged. Pippen achieved one of those for the Bulls, 7 out of 9x in the 90's... of course there's no comparison to Klay. So when you say that Pippen sucked, you're basically saying the 90's was watered down so bad that a player "like him" could get such high praise.

You stepped in your own bullshit and got busted.


Lebron's All-NBA wasn't accompanied by all-defense or scoring title so he isn't as dominant as MJ

He also only dominated the East while Jordan dominated the LEAGUE

He also never defeated maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load in Finals), so he needed all-time scorers and elite 1st options at sidekick to nearly match his Finals scoring.. Otoh, Jordan can defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load in Finals), so he can win with secondary producers like Pippen, Wiggins or Klay that average far less in the Finals.

So Jordan was more dominant on many levels

Btw, winning 2nd options don't play at the level of 1st options but get the accolade for being a passenger on the bus and not the driver.

So we're talking 1st options only.

[8Ball]

You gave 2 criterias on how a player should be judged. Pippen achieved one of those for the Bulls, 7 out of 9x in the 90's... of course there's no comparison to Klay. So when you say that Pippen sucked, you're basically saying the 90's was watered down so bad that a player "like him" could get such high praise.

You stepped in your own bullshit and got busted.

Head shot from hey yo.

[8Ball]

Lebron's All-NBA wasn't accompanied by all-defense or scoring title so he isn't as dominant as MJ

He also only dominated the East while Jordan dominated the LEAGUE

He also never defeated maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load in Finals), so he needed all-time scorers and elite 1st options at sidekick to nearly match his Finals scoring.. Otoh, Jordan can defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load in Finals), so he can win with secondary producers like Pippen, Wiggins or Klay that average far less in the Finals.

So Jordan was more dominant on many levels

Btw, winning 2nd options don't play at the level of 1st options but get the accolade for being a passenger on the bus and not the driver.

So we're talking 1st options only.

Bron owns the scoring title. Most points scored reg and playoffs combined.

Bron has a major claim over the greatest scorer of all time title

[3ba11]

Head shot from hey yo.


No just a dummy derailing because he can't respond

[8Ball]

Man that's a head shot right there.


3ball claims "who cares about All-NBA if it doesn't come with all-defense"


Scottie Pippen did it for the entire 90s.

Head shot.

We win this scottie pippen debate.

[8Ball]

aka who cares about All-NBA if it doesn't come with all-defense or scoring title - THAT'S goat domination

Scottie Pippen for entire 90s.

Head. Shot.

[3ba11]

Head shot.

We win this scottie pippen debate.



Stay dumb

You're 0-5247 against 3ball

I'm like Mayweather - undefeated - never wrong about Lebron and you guys must derail

[8Ball]

You taking massive L's today.


The entire scottie pippen narrative collapsed.


You said "aka who cares about All-NBA if it doesn't come with all-defense or scoring title - THAT'S goat domination"

Pippen did it for entire decade.:lol

Its over. I win.

[3ba11]

You taking massive L's today.


The entire scottie pippen narrative collapsed.


You said "aka who cares about All-NBA if it doesn't come with all-defense or scoring title - THAT'S goat domination"

Pippen did it for entire decade.:lol

Its over. I win.


First of all, it was 1st team, which Pippen only got twice

[8Ball]

First of all, it was 1st team, which Pippen only got twice

3x

Now you admit Pippen had goat domination for 3 years !!!!! I am blowing you out the gym right now.


aka who cares about All-NBA if it doesn't come with all-defense or scoring title - THAT'S goat domination

[3ba11]

3x

Now you admit Pippen had goat domination for 3 years !!!!! I am blowing you out the gym right now.


winning 2nd options don't play at the level of 1st options but get the accolade for being a passenger on the bus and not the driver.

So we're talking first options

Pippen was a 2nd option that never dominated

Ever

You're just derailing because you can't refute the point that Lebron was a a lesser-doninant All-NBA player than Jordan because he lacked all-defense or scoring title

[8Ball]

3ball your posting legacy is taking a massive L right now.


Just log off for tonight so you don't do yourself any more damage.

[8Ball]

First of all, it was 1st team, which Pippen only got twice


We're talking first options

Pippen was a 2nd option that never dominated

Ever


Nope, your first post said all-nba 1st teams. Not first option anything.


Now you are lying trying to damage control.


Its not working.

[3ba11]

Nope, your first post said all-nba 1st teams. Not first option anything.


Now you are lying trying to damage control.


Its not working.


2nd option with All-NBA status is an oxymoron

Contradictory

winning 2nd options don't play at the level of 1st options but get the accolade for being a passenger on the bus and not the driver.

So we're talking first options

Pippen was a 2nd option that never dominated

Ever

You're just derailing because you can't refute the point that Lebron was a a lesser-doninant All-NBA player than Jordan because he lacked all-defense or scoring title

[8Ball]

winning 2nd options don't play at the level of 1st options but get the accolade for being a passenger on the bus and not the driver.

So we're talking first options

Pippen was a 2nd option that never dominated

Ever

You're just derailing because you can't refute the point that Lebron was a a lesser-doninant All-NBA player than Jordan because he lacked all-defense or scoring title

You claimed exactly:



aka who cares about All-NBA if it doesn't come with all-defense or scoring title - THAT'S goat domination

Nothing about first options, nothing about 2nd team.

Pippen did it for an entire decade. So he did dominate as per your definition.


It's over.

[3ba11]

You claimed exactly:




Pippen did it for an entire decade. So he did dominate as per your definition.


Pippen wasn't a 1st option

Case closed

And Lebron wasn't as dominant as MJ because his All-NBA didn't come with all-defense or scoring title

[8Ball]

I predict a 3ball turnaround where he hails Pippen as a top 5 player like he did with Steph and Giannis. :lol

[8Ball]

Pippen wasn't a 1st option

Case closed

And Lebron wasn't as dominant as MJ because his All-NBA didn't come with all-defense or scoring title

Pippen was 1st option for 2 years which you just admitted.

Another L for 3ball.

[3ba11]

Pippen was 1st option for 2 years which you just admitted.

Another L for 3ball.


The winning spotlight gave Pippen about 4 extra All-NBA that he didn't deserve (93', 96-98')

His caliber was 3rd or 4th option - he was only a 2nd option alongside MJ - he wouldn't be 2nd option on any other team

A 14 ppg dunker that couldn't score - worse than Wiggins outside the dynasty system.

[8Ball]

The winning spotlight gave Pippen about 4 extra All-NBA that he didn't deserve (93', 96-98')

His caliber was 3rd or 4th option - he was only a 2nd option alongside MJ - he wouldn't be 2nd option on any other team

A 14 ppg dunker that couldn't score - worse than Wiggins outside the dynasty system.

This entire post is just fictitious predictions. Making opinionated claims of things that would or would not have happened is conceding the argument. Pippen made 1st team all nba and all Def without Jordan.


Another L for 3ball tonight.

[Hey Yo]

First of all, it was 1st team, which Pippen only got twice

Jig's up, chico.... your schtick's been exposed.

Better put a pot a coffee on...

[HoopsNY]

Longevity didn't hold as much weight back then as it does today. Based on the way Kareem is ranked today, you would think he was easily considered #2 at worst back then but he wasn't.

https://www.espn.com/sportscentury/athletes.html
https://www.topendsports.com/world/lists/greatest-all-time/athletes-si-20th-century.htm

That's ESPN and Sports Illustrated, easily the 2 most relevant sports outlets back then if not still today and they don't even have Kareem as a top 25 athlete of all-time, and with the NBA in general they both have Jordan, Wilt, Russell and Magic ahead and SI also has Bird ahead.

I'm not saying that Kareem doesn't deserve to be in the discussion and that he didnt' have or didn't deserve any "GOAT" or "top 3" claims, but he wasn't this consensus top 3 player on everyone's list like he is today.

Its pretty clear that just like with the "Finals appearances" argument, longevity is holding a larger weight today because it strengthens Lebron's case, and those same people that make that argument have to retroactively apply it to the past.

There's nothing wrong with criteria changing over time, but opinions closer to when the player was actually playing means more to me vs so many years later. And its just hard for me to think a player is actually greater than what we considered him when we were closer to him actually playing.

You're right about this. It's revisionist history that has placed Kareem as high as he is being placed now. I too remember a very different narrative growing up and Kareem was not as high as some of the other guys mentioned.

[theman93]

And Skip Bayless has Lebron #9 all time. Who cares?

[jlip]

Longevity didn't hold as much weight back then as it does today. Based on the way Kareem is ranked today, you would think he was easily considered #2 at worst back then but he wasn't.

https://www.espn.com/sportscentury/athletes.html
https://www.topendsports.com/world/lists/greatest-all-time/athletes-si-20th-century.htm

That's ESPN and Sports Illustrated, easily the 2 most relevant sports outlets back then if not still today and they don't even have Kareem as a top 25 athlete of all-time, and with the NBA in general they both have Jordan, Wilt, Russell and Magic ahead and SI also has Bird ahead.

I'm not saying that Kareem doesn't deserve to be in the discussion and that he didnt' have or didn't deserve any "GOAT" or "top 3" claims, but he wasn't this consensus top 3 player on everyone's list like he is today.

Its pretty clear that just like with the "Finals appearances" argument, longevity is holding a larger weight today because it strengthens Lebron's case, and those same people that make that argument have to retroactively apply it to the past.

There's nothing wrong with criteria changing over time, but opinions closer to when the player was actually playing means more to me vs so many years later. And its just hard for me to think a player is actually greater than what we considered him when we were closer to him actually playing.

I "hear" what you're saying and in many ways agree with some of it, but I think using sources such as "All Time Greatest Athletes" list is not the most reliable means of gauging GOAT conversations at the time. Those lists and series seemed to have focused a lot more on societal and cultural impact as well as popularity as much as they did actual on court and career achievements. I don't particularly see those as GOAT (i.e. greatest player) lists.

But you are correct as GOAT criteria has always been fluid depending on which player someone wanted to prop up. If we want to argue that "Finals appearances" and longevity are used today to strengthen LeBron's argument, we have to admit that losing before one gets to the Finals many times, and then going undefeated in the Finals once you finally get there was a criterion created to boost MJ's GOAT candidacy.

Also, using Kareem as an example, I did a thread several years ago pulling articles from 1975-1984 whereas many people were claiming Kareem to be GOAT. (It seems like it was deleted in the great "ISH purge.") Kareem's status and GOAT candidacy seemed to start slipping as Magic and Bird became more popular, and he became known as that slow old guy with the boring shot whose career Magic supposedly saved. Honestly, I was a victim of that very mentality. I started watching the game such as to understand what was going on in 1987 during Magic's peak. For most of my college years in the 90's I actually considered Magic to be my GOAT. Interestingly though, I never heard one person argue that Magic and Kareem each losing four times in the Finals or Bird losing twice damaged either of their GOAT candidacy. Again, that criterion seemed to gain more traction as Jordan proponents sought more ammunition against LeBron, as though there were not other more sensible and substantive arguments.

Also, dominant scoring was once not considered a GOAT criterion as Russell won four MVPs against Wilt and was named the GOAT (https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1979&dat=19801031&id=AJUiAAAAIBAJ&sjid=u6kFAAAAIBAJ&pg=996,10535444) over Wilt by sportswriters on the NBA's 35th Anniversary team in 1980.

So yeah... Again, GOAT criteria tends to change over time based on which player a person is seeking to make the case for.

[3ba11]

I "hear" what you're saying and in many ways agree with some of it, but I think using sources such as "All Time Greatest Athletes" list is not the most reliable means of gauging GOAT conversations at the time. Those lists and series seemed to have focused a lot more on societal and cultural impact as well as popularity as much as they did actual on court and career achievements. I don't particularly see those as GOAT (i.e. greatest player) lists.

But you are correct as GOAT criteria has always been fluid depending on which player someone wanted to prop up. If we want to argue that "Finals appearances" and longevity are used today to strengthen LeBron's argument, we have to admit that losing before one gets to the Finals many times, and then going undefeated in the Finals once you finally get there was a criterion created to boost MJ's GOAT candidacy.

Also, using Kareem as an example, I did a thread several years ago pulling articles from 1975-1984 whereas many people were claiming Kareem to be GOAT. (It seems like it was deleted in the great "ISH purge.") Kareem's status and GOAT candidacy seemed to start slipping as Magic and Bird became more popular, and he became known as that slow old guy with the boring shot whose career Magic supposedly saved. Honestly, I was a victim of that very mentality. I started watching the game such as to understand what was going on in 1987 during Magic's peak. For most of my college years in the 90's I actually considered Magic to be my GOAT. Interestingly though, I never heard one person argue that Magic and Kareem each losing four times in the Finals or Bird losing twice damaged either of their GOAT candidacy. Again, that criterion seemed to gain more traction as Jordan proponents sought more ammunition against LeBron, as though there were not other more sensible and substantive arguments.

Also, dominant scoring was once not considered a GOAT criterion as Russell won four MVPs against Wilt and was named the GOAT (https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1979&dat=19801031&id=AJUiAAAAIBAJ&sjid=u6kFAAAAIBAJ&pg=996,10535444) over Wilt by sportswriters on the NBA's 35th Anniversary team in 1980.

So yeah... Again, GOAT criteria tends to change over time based on which player a person is seeking to make the case for.


Lebron couldn't win the East with homecourt in 09' and 10'

He literally couldn't win the East with homecourt so he formed super-teams to ensure Finals trips

We're talking about the weak East that would've been wide open in the 2010's - that's the conference that he formed super-teams in..

The conference was already won by 1-star teams for 5 of 9 years from 01-09' (Iverson, Kidd, Dwight, 07' Lebron) - it's the only conference in history that was won by multiple 1-star teams, yet that's the conference he formed super-teams in.

So his Finals appearances were literally manufactured

Anyone giving him props for that is a fool

And longevity = playing at a lower level for longer - it means nothing and never has - Reggie Miller has 3000 more points than Bird - whooptiwhoop - Bird still destroys him

So the Finals appearance and longevity arguments aren't arguments.. They aren't demonstrations of goatness

The reality is that a 4/10 Finals record means that you would've made 4 Finals from the other conference - so Finals appearances are conference-dependant - only winning them matters.. Winning the conference is literally nothing compared to winning the LEAGUE

[PWB15]

Nick Wright is special needs. Good Night

No one takes him seriously

[3ba11]

Jordan's accomplishments and dominance are simply superior to everyone's

In 3-pointer history, only MJ three-peated twice.. Only MJ won 6 FMVP... Only MJ won 70 games and the title.. Only MJ has the goat winning frequency (6/15 or 40%)... Only MJ never lost as the favorite or personally wet the bed... Only MJ was never outplayed in a series.. Only MJ has 9 seasons of 1st team All-NBA and 1st team defense.... Only MJ won the most chips with a secondary producer at sidekick like Wiggins, Pippen or Klay, so only MJ had to defeat maximum defensive attention for every chip (carry scoring load in Finals)

We can go on listing accomplishments of Jordan that no one in history can match their caliber or dominance.

No one is anywhere near this caliber of accomplishment or dominance

[8Ball]

Longevity didn't hold as much weight back then as it does today. Based on the way Kareem is ranked today, you would think he was easily considered #2 at worst back then but he wasn't.

https://www.espn.com/sportscentury/athletes.html
https://www.topendsports.com/world/lists/greatest-all-time/athletes-si-20th-century.htm

That's ESPN and Sports Illustrated, easily the 2 most relevant sports outlets back then if not still today and they don't even have Kareem as a top 25 athlete of all-time, and with the NBA in general they both have Jordan, Wilt, Russell and Magic ahead and SI also has Bird ahead.

I'm not saying that Kareem doesn't deserve to be in the discussion and that he didnt' have or didn't deserve any "GOAT" or "top 3" claims, but he wasn't this consensus top 3 player on everyone's list like he is today.

Its pretty clear that just like with the "Finals appearances" argument, longevity is holding a larger weight today because it strengthens Lebron's case, and those same people that make that argument have to retroactively apply it to the past.

There's nothing wrong with criteria changing over time, but opinions closer to when the player was actually playing means more to me vs so many years later. And its just hard for me to think a player is actually greater than what we considered him when we were closer to him actually playing.

Top Brady wouldn't make a great athlete and no one claims he is. But his longevity is a massive determining factor in his GOAT rankings.

[8Ball]

Jordan's accomplishments and dominance are simply superior to everyone's

In 3-pointer history, only MJ three-peated twice.. Only MJ won 6 FMVP... Only MJ won 70 games and the title.. Only MJ has the goat winning frequency (6/15 or 40%)... Only MJ never lost as the favorite or personally wet the bed... Only MJ was never outplayed in a series.. Only MJ has 9 seasons of 1st team All-NBA and 1st team defense.... Only MJ won the most chips with a secondary producer at sidekick like Wiggins, Pippen or Klay, so only MJ had to defeat maximum defensive attention for every chip (carry scoring load in Finals)

We can go on listing accomplishments of Jordan that no one in history can match their caliber or dominance.

No one is anywhere near this caliber of accomplishment or dominance

LeBron's accomplishments and dominance are simply superior to everyone's

In 3 pointer history, only LeBron went to 10 finals. Only LeBron has made 18 all-nba teams out of 19 seasons. Only LeBron has made 13 all-nba 1st teams. Beat a 73 win team. Only LeBron can come back from 3-1 deficit against 73 win team and win the greatest championship of all time. Only LeBron has all time scoring record + 10 000 in assists as the teams playmaker. Only LeBron can lead all players in all categories points, assists, rebounds, steals, blocks in a playoff series. Only LeBron went to 3 different teams and built them into championship contender. Only LeBron has the most 30 PER playoff runs. Only LeBron can average 25 ppg minimum for 18 seasons straight. Only LeBron can drag bag teams to finals 2007 / 2018.


We can go on listing accomplishments of Lebron that no one in history can match their caliber or dominance.

[3ba11]

LeBron's accomplishments and dominance are simply superior to everyone's

In 3 pointer history, only LeBron went to 10 finals. Only LeBron has made 18 all-nba teams out of 19 seasons. Beat a 73 win team. Only LeBron all time scoring record + 10 000 in assists as the teams playmaker. Only LeBron went to 3 different teams and built them into championship contender. Only LeBron has the most 30 PER playoff runs. Only LeBron can average 25 ppg minimum for 18 seasons straight. Only LeBron can drag bag teams to finals 2007 / 2018.


We can go on listing accomplishments of Lebron that no one in history can match their caliber or dominance.



Lebron played at a lower level for longer

That's what longevity is - it's saying "well my guy didn't play as well and I can't list comparable accomplishments o peak but he played for longer!!!"

Weakest shit ever .. your arguments confirm that he isn't even #2

Lebron never played as well as Jordan..He never won MVP and DPOY.. He never won 70 games.. He never won with secondary producers. He never 3-peated.. He never averaged 40 in a series and couldn't score at all compared to mj - no one can in the last 50 years

He didn't do shit until the decision and then he was carried in every Finals win (equal-scoring partners so he never defeated maximum defensive attention)

[HoopsNY]

Lebron played at a lower level for longer

That's what longevity is - it's saying "well my guy didn't play as well and I can't list comparable accomplishments o peak but he played for longer!!!"

Weakest shit ever .. your arguments confirm that he isn't even #2

Lebron never played as well as Jordan..He never won MVP and DPOY.. He never won 70 games.. He never won with secondary producers. He never 3-peated.. He never averaged 40 in a series and couldn't score at all compared to mj - no one can in the last 50 years

He didn't do shit until the decision and then he was carried in every Finals win (equal-scoring partners so he never defeated maximum defensive attention)

1-9

[3ba11]

1-9


Lebron was lottery at the same stage and went 1-9 in his prime with top seeds and championship teams

He's literally a joke compared to MJ and I enjoy sticking it to his dumb fans... The most gullible fools in world history

[8Ball]

Lebron played at a lower level for longer

That's what longevity is - it's saying "well my guy didn't play as well and I can't list comparable accomplishments o peak but he played for longer!!!"

Weakest shit ever .. your arguments confirm that he isn't even #2

Lebron never played as well as Jordan..He never won MVP and DPOY.. He never won 70 games.. He never won with secondary producers. He never 3-peated.. He never averaged 40 in a series and couldn't score at all compared to mj - no one can in the last 50 years

He didn't do shit until the decision and then he was carried in every Finals win (equal-scoring partners so he never defeated maximum defensive attention)

Wrong. Nobody else has done the following:

In 3 pointer history, only LeBron went to 10 finals. Only LeBron has made 18 all-nba teams out of 19 seasons. Only LeBron has made 13 all-nba 1st teams. Beat a 73 win team. Only LeBron can come back from 3-1 deficit against 73 win team and win the greatest championship of all time. Only LeBron has all time scoring record + 10 000 in assists as the teams playmaker. Only LeBron can lead all players in all categories points, assists, rebounds, steals, blocks in a playoff series. Only LeBron went to 3 different teams and built them into championship contender. Only LeBron has the most 30 PER playoff runs. Only LeBron can average 25 ppg minimum for 18 seasons straight. Only LeBron can drag bag teams to finals 2007 / 2018.


We can go on listing accomplishments of Lebron that no one in history can match their caliber or dominance.


Meanwhile, 6 rings? Robert Horry has 7.
70 win team? LeBron beat one.

[8Ball]

Lebron was lottery at the same stage and went 1-9 in his prime with top seeds and championship teams

He's literally a joke compared to MJ and I enjoy sticking it to his dumb fans... The most gullible fools in world history

I will consider Jordan the GOAT once he has more all-nba 1st teams as Bron and achieves the all time scoring record. And make 10 finals.

[3ba11]

I will consider Jordan the GOAT once he has more all-nba 1st teams as Bron and achieves the all time scoring record. And make 10 finals.


Lebron = 1st team NBA... 28 ppg

Jordan = 1st team NBA.. 33 ppg.. 1st team defense.. scoring champ


^^^ So Jordan's basketball is far more dominant and superior


Lebron..... owned conference (through collusion)
Jordan..... owned league (organic)

[PWB15]

How did a special needs person get a job in the media

[2much_knowledge]

Says the guy who worships Skip Bayless

Find me one single comment me praising skipp. Just one

[2much_knowledge]

Stopped reading at “Nick Wright”

As we all should.

[2much_knowledge]

I will consider Jordan the GOAT once he has more all-nba 1st teams as Bron and achieves the all time scoring record. And make 10 finals.

2 three peats > all that random garbage you just said.

Ill die waiting for his 1st one

[kawhileonard2]

Like Chris Broussard stated, Jordan turned a franchise that drafted him and never won into a dynasty and two 3 peats. Lebron won 1 title in 11 years for the franchise that drafted him. Lebron won 2 bronze medals for America, as well as lost with HCA to Dirk and Dwight Howard. Jordan also in less seasons has more titles, league mvp's and finals mvp combined as well despite never playing with a guy who won league or finals mvp.

[Johnny32]

LeBron's accomplishments and dominance are simply superior to everyone's

In 3 pointer history, only LeBron went to 10 finals. Only LeBron has made 18 all-nba teams out of 19 seasons. Only LeBron has made 13 all-nba 1st teams. Beat a 73 win team. Only LeBron can come back from 3-1 deficit against 73 win team and win the greatest championship of all time. Only LeBron has all time scoring record + 10 000 in assists as the teams playmaker. Only LeBron can lead all players in all categories points, assists, rebounds, steals, blocks in a playoff series. Only LeBron went to 3 different teams and built them into championship contender. Only LeBron has the most 30 PER playoff runs. Only LeBron can average 25 ppg minimum for 18 seasons straight. Only LeBron can drag bag teams to finals 2007 / 2018.


We can go on listing accomplishments of Lebron that no one in history can match their caliber or dominance.

greatest career ever and it isn't close.

[kawhileonard2]

MJ = 6 Titles, 6 finals MVP's, 5 League MVP's = 17 Points total
Russell = 11 Titles, 0 finals MVP's, 5 League MVP's = 16 Points Total
Kareem = 6 Titles, 2 finals MVP's, 6 League MVP's = 14 Points Total
Lebron = 4 Titles, 4 finals MVP's, 4 League MVP's = 12 Points Total
Magic = 5 Titles, 3 finals MVP's, 3 League MVP's = 11 Points Total
Duncan = 4 Titles, 3 finals MVP's, 2 League MVP's = 9 Points Total
Kobe = 5 Titles, 2 finals MVP's, 1 League MVP's = 8 Points Total
Shaq = 4 Titles, 3 finals MVP's, 1 League MVP's = 8 Points Total
Bird = 3 Titles, 2 finals MVP's, 3 League MVP's = 8 Points Total
Wilt = 2 Titles, 1 finals MVP's, 4 League MVP's = 7 Points Total
Hakeem = 2 Titles, 2 finals MVP's, 1 League MVP's = 5 Points Total
Moses Malone = 1 Titles, 1 finals MVP's, 3 League MVP's = 5 Points Total
Kawhi = 2 Titles, 2 finals MVP's = 4 Points Total

[kawhileonard2]

greatest career ever and it isn't close.

Not even close. Curry a guy who came in after him has as many titles and more for the franchise that drafted him and beat Lebron 3 times.

[Johnny32]

Not even close. Curry a guy who came in after him has as many titles and more for the franchise that drafted him and beat Lebron 3 times.

no one cares about your grade school level goat criteria.

[kawhileonard2]

no one cares about your grade school level goat criteria.

Need an answer on each thread below.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?489748-When-KD-and-Lebron-go-head-to-head
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=459570

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495113-Vassilis-Spanoulis-Giannis-Antetokounmpo-s-And-Luka-Doncic-s-Idol-Retired
https://www.espn.com/olympics/wbc2006/news/story?id=2568543

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495940-Lebron-with-Shaq-2nd-round-exit-Giannis-with-Middleton-a-Title

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495955-Giannis-just-blasted-those-who-join-super-teams-in-post-conference-interview

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?493982-Devin-Booker-Vs-Lebron-James-who-is-better-currently

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496095-Devin-Booker-put-up-47-his-playoff-career-high-on-Lebron

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496253-Lebron-won-2-bronze-medals-for-the-United-States-of-America-How

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496256-Lebron-with-Tim-Duncan-Bronze-Medal-in-Olympics-Vince-with-KG-Gold-Medal

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496255-Lebron-with-Carlos-Boozer-No-Playoffs-Deron-Williams-with-Carlos-Boozer-WCF

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496549-Lebron-stacking-the-deck-in-2022-because-he-is-afraid-of-Devin-Booker

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?492941-1-Title-in-11-Years-for-the-Franchise-that-you-originally-played-for


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496831-times-when-each-top-10-player-all-time-Lost-when-they-were-expected-to-win

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?486706-Rob-Parker-LeBron-is-the-FFOAT

Record against teams with an SRS of 5.0 or higher.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?497187-Record-against-teams-with-an-SRS-of-5-0-or-higher

Not 3, not 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 or Playoff Mode Activated or A Storm is Coming
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?494319-Not-3-not-4-5-6-7-8-or-Playoff-Mode-Activated-or-A-Storm-is-Coming/page2


Playoff Mode: ACTIVATED
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?473762-Playoff-Mode-ACTIVATED

Lowest Scoring Supporting Cast Overall Playoffs
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?463869-Lowest-Scoring-Supporting-Cast-Overall-Playoffs/page3


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?499837-Greatest-floor-raise-of-all-time/page2
Lebron played with Shaq who won league mvp and 3 finals mvp's and lost in round 2. Lebron played with Peak Duncan who had won 2 league mvp's and 3 finals mvp's and won bronze medal. Lebron played with Peak Wade who won finals mvp and got outplayed by Jason Terry. Lebron played with Derrick Rose who won mvp under age 30 which was the same as Kevin Durant who won mvp under 30 while both were on Golden State and Cleveland. Lebron played with mulitple PER leaders as well and now Russell Westbrook a league mvp winner and more triple doubles than Oscar Robertson. Yet despite all of that Lebron lost with all of them.


Jarrett Allen vs Gobert and Jarrett Allen vs Lebron
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?499786-Jarrett-Allen-vs-Gobert-and-Jarrett-Allen-vs-Lebron

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500431-Lakers-were-1-in-Preseason-Odds-in-2021-and-Suns-were-14
Was #1 in Preseason odds and lost to a 14th seed in odds

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2021_preseason_odds.html

And Devin Booker walked them down in the playoffs with Devin outplaying Lebron. :confusedshrug:


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500416-Why-did-Pelinka-surround-Lebron-with-a-bullshit-roster
He has peak Anthony Davis, the best player on the 2020 squad and the reason the Lakers did anything as the 2019 Lakers missed the playoffs and 2021 Lakers lost in round 1 when AD wasn't around. He has Prime Melo who won a scoring title and all time leader in scoring for the Olympics. He has Dwight Howard a 3x DPOY and a guy who beat Lebron without HCA. He has Westbrook who is the modern day Oscar Robertson and also won league mvp along with average a Triple Double 4 years in a row. He also has Rondo who is a hall of famer.

Why didn't he play it against Dwight Howard in 2009 when Dwight was dominating http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?459570-How-is-it-even-possible-to-lose-to-Dwight-Howard-in-a-series-with-HCA/page10? Or against Duncan or KG or Dirk? Why did he run away from KD a guy at his position?
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?489748-When-KD-and-Lebron-go-head-to-head

Why didn't he do **** against Booker in the playoffs as well?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496095-Devin-Booker-put-up-47-his-playoff-career-high-on-Lebron


Devin Booker broke Lebron
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500264-Devin-Booker-broke-Lebron&p=14500724


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?503966-3ball-why-can-LeBron-win-with-Irving-but-KD-can-t&p=14584482#post14584482

Lebron won bronze medal twice and lost with HCA 3x. Jordan only won gold medal and never lost with HCA. Prove me wrong!

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500440-Russell-Westbrook-leading-the-league-in-Triple-Doubles-Thus-far-in-2022-Season
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/triple-double-leaders-2021-2022-stats

Expected Championships Won and Titles Over Expected
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500379-Expected-Championships-Won-and-Titles-Over-Expected/page3&p=14503600


How did LeBron go 10-16 vs Kawhi? 7-12 vs Shaq? 17-23 vs Curry?
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500334-How-did-LeBron-go-10-16-vs-Kawhi-7-12-vs-Shaq-17-23-vs-Curry

Top 50 All-Time List - Shot Clock Era = #1
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?497028-Top-50-All-Time-List-Shot-Clock-Era-1&p=14426360&viewfull=1#post14426360


Difference between Lebron and Tmac?
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?494830-Difference-between-Lebron-and-Tmac
Both 0-2 with HCA against 50+ win teams until they joined forces with someone who won as the man. Also won bronze medals.

Tmac lost to Utah in 2007 while Lebron was losing to a career loser in Dwight Howard and also Carlos Arroyo in the Olympics with peak Tim Duncan on his squad despite playing more minutes than Hakeem even played on the 1996 Olympic team.



LeBron's message that makes the NBA shake: A storm is coming
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500734-LeBron-s-message-that-makes-the-NBA-shake-A-storm-is-coming

https://www.marca.com/en/more-sports/2021/04/09/6070b833ca47418e588b45e9.html


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?480740-Vasileios-Spanoulis-gt-gt-gt-Lebron-James
Outplayed Lebron in FIBA and caused America to get another bronze medal and then Greece got spanked in Gold medal final.:oldlol:

http://archive.fiba.com/pages/eng/fa/game/p/gid/A/grid/75/rid/5152/sid/3507/_/2006_FIBA_World_Championship/statistic.html


First Time Ever a team with 2 guys who won MVP missed the playoffs
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?503543-First-Time-Ever-a-team-with-2-guys-who-won-MVP-missed-the-playoffs


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?503981-Why-does-Lebron-have-2-bronze-medals-while-KD-only-has-gold-medals&p=14584371#post14584371

https://media0.giphy.com/media/l0ErLeqamV3UOARsA/giphy.gif

[Johnny32]

no one saw the tardspam coming.

[Baller789]

All of these mainstream analysts are WWE level.

They all s*ck.

[TheGoatest]

11 pages bois! :rockon:
Let's keep it going and get this bad boy up to 20.
With the help of the many upset alts, anything is possible. :oldlol:

[Spurs m8]

How can anyone sit and watch nick wrong, “bru” and that panel of total losers speculate rubbish is beyond me

It's amazing that anyone would watch it.

To the point you'd judge someone who does

I bet jonny32 watches it

[post]

The fact that you believe he’s retarded why he’ll get a platform to talk about it as opposed to whatever conventional opinion you’d have nobody needs to hear.

It’s funny when people get a glimpse of reality through the horseshit. You’d think you’d realize how mediocre the way fans have been taught to think is.

Boiling it down, Jordan really wasn’t higher impact than Duncan, peak for peak.

There’s a shit ton he left on the table as far as impact. The entire defensive side of the game.

On the most practical level, Jordan has no reason to be better than any truly dominant big man. It is a big man’s sport. And defense is the most dominant part of the game historically.

No bad defense will ever win a title at this rate. Plenty of bad offenses did or came really close.

Raw basketball ability, Jordan ain’t better than Jokic. But Jokic just can’t defend the best approaches to offense in the history of the sport. Thing is, Jordan didn’t play in the best offensive era.

Jokic wouldve annihilated the NBA pre-2014, even in the playoffs, on both ends, to the level of Jordan or anyone else. And that’s because he’s a massive human with blends of the skills of the smaller ones. Or even better skill than almost all the smaller guys, ever.

Once you start talking absolute peak Hakeem, Duncan, Shaq, Kareem, Robinson, Garnett…. Like Jordan had less weaknesses because naturally his position and approach to the sport had less depth of responsibility, so it’s really easier to. Same time, he didn’t have as strong of strengths of these guys.

Hakeem could seal the entire paint off and run an offense based on him scoring 35 and being a threat to score 45 if you don’t spam double. The center of the universe on both ends. Jordan is not as good as that. He was consistent, he was very high volume, which he had to be to even touch those guys impact as a guard, but Hakeem could and did reach higher levels of raw dominance on the court. Their very guys had their moments too.

jokic doesn't need to defend the perimeter like adebayo or the paint like gobert but if he could do either the goat chatter would be over

he does need a better team if people are going to judge based on rings


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FYcj41tUsAAZGU0?format=jpg&name=900x900

I'm not saying it's a great list, but I've seen much worse. The only things that truly stand out as bad to me

1. Isiah at 15 is a joke. Iverson is ranked way too high as well
2. It makes zero sense to have Luka that high, even if it's based on projection, and not even include Jokic
3. There are several players I wouldn't have included in the list, but Archibald & Rodman are the two that stick out the most as being truly undeserving

dude hates jokic from the little i've paid attention to him in the past

it's inevitable jokic will be ranked much higher when his career is over

[Johnny32]

It's amazing that anyone would watch it.

To the point you'd judge someone who does

I bet jonny32 watches it

type my name, bitch

[2much_knowledge]

11 pages bois! :rockon:
Let's keep it going and get this bad boy up to 20.
With the help of the many upset alts, anything is possible. :oldlol:

Lol upset over what? Nicks opinion is as worthless as yours

[TheGoatest]

Lol upset over what? Nicks opinion is as worthless as yours

:oldlol: @ calling someone's opinion "worthless" even though he literally gets paid for his opinion.
Absolutely STEAMING.

https://64.media.tumblr.com/4bd8e69ec4ecb068738d73f000fb1ab2/02e593084d0ab90e-49/s400x600/0c4a7c5781d8fb2e9af974ff2e9b7961a0a5e034.gifv

[theman93]

:oldlol: @ calling someone's opinion "worthless" even though he literally gets paid for his opinion.
Absolutely STEAMING.

https://64.media.tumblr.com/4bd8e69ec4ecb068738d73f000fb1ab2/02e593084d0ab90e-49/s400x600/0c4a7c5781d8fb2e9af974ff2e9b7961a0a5e034.gifv

Interesting. So Skip Bayless' opinion is worth more than anyone else because of how much he makes?

[8Ball]

Lol upset over what? Nicks opinion is as worthless as yours

Nick Wright will have 35 more years to keep pumping out pro LeBron takes and influence the minds of the newer generation.

In 20 years, the majority of humans will be on the LeBron GOAT camp.

[guy]

Top Brady wouldn't make a great athlete and no one claims he is. But his longevity is a massive determining factor in his GOAT rankings.

Those aren't lists judging based on actual athleticism hence why you have golfers on there.

[TheMan]

Top Brady wouldn't make a great athlete and no one claims he is. But his longevity is a massive determining factor in his GOAT rankings.
Nope, from Sports Illustrated...


Brady tallied three MVP awards and six All-Pro selections across 22 seasons, and he retires as the all-time leader in completions (7,263), touchdowns (624), passing yards (84,520), and quarterback wins (243). But Brady’s ultimate legacy lives beyond the stats. Brady is one of the greatest champions in American sports history, with a résumé rivaling that of Bill Russell and Michael Jordan.

https://www.si.com/nfl/2022/02/01/tom-brady-how-many-super-bowl-wins

It's not longevity that people regard Brady with GOAT status, it's his impressive 7 NFL SuperBowl wins and 5 SB MVPs. Sorry but LeBron just doesn't have enough titles to stand our, not when a contemporary with less seasons played than LBJ already has the same amount of rings, and you can forget about it if Curry ends up with more, which is a real possibility.

[TheMan]

11 pages bois! :rockon:
Let's keep it going and get this bad boy up to 20.
With the help of the many upset alts, anything is possible. :oldlol:

This thread can go 100 pages and it won't change jack shit in the MJ James "debate" IRL.

[guy]

Definitely short compared to the measuring stick of the category, which was Kareem and now Lebron.

Kareem was an outlier. All the other all-time greats considered at the time (Russell, Wilt, Bird, Magic, Jordan) played 13-14 seasons. Clearly since Kareem wasn't the unanimous GOAT, and mostly wasn't considered the GOAT, and in many lists wasn't even considered 2nd, the 6-7 extra years he played weren't as valued.



If being great at something for a longer period didn't mean anything we wouldn't hear Mjs all defense count vs Lebrons now would we? MJ's time as an all league defender was longer than Lebron's clearly. One could argue at his absolute best as a defender Lebron was better, but it didn't last very long.

Kareem and Lebron played 19-20 seasons, Jordan played 15. You're acting like Jordan only played 6-7 seasons. I'd see your point then. Even if you want to say Jordan being deemed the GOAT at his first retirement was a ridiculous notion given Kareem's career was over twice as long at that point, looking back I'd agree with you there.




Right it isn't particularly fair because people decide when it's convenient to separate the 2. I never heard Kareem or Magic get half the shit Kobe and Shaq get all time for being teammates. Used to be that you had to win one as a great player and if you won multiple times you couldn't be denied after that. Now days we get " well he only won 4" as if that's a bad thing. Only a few guys in the top 10 have 4 rings and even less have them as the best player. It doesn't make much sense to me to see that as a negative when Russell basically laps the field.

And why isn't Russell in the running for best mix? Because of scoring? He dominated the game just as much from his side of the floor. And he won 2 chips as the coach while still playing. That's goat shit lol.

He didn't play in the modern era and he wasn't all around as great of a player since he didn't score much. I mean, scoring is a big deal regardless of how much people want to act like its not. I'm just saying thats the argument. I would definitely consider Russell a GOAT candidate.

[TheMan]

Nick Wright will have 35 more years to keep pumping out pro LeBron takes and influence the minds of the newer generation.

In 20 years, the majority of humans will be on the LeBron GOAT camp.

Nope, only way that happens is if LeBron at the very least ties MJ in rings. In 20 years, the NBA will be fabricating new GOAT candidates like they did with LBJ.

[3ba11]

Nope, from Sports Illustrated...



https://www.si.com/nfl/2022/02/01/tom-brady-how-many-super-bowl-wins

It's not longevity that people regard Brady with GOAT status, it's his impressive 7 NFL SuperBowl wins and 5 SB MVPs. Sorry but LeBron just doesn't have enough titles to stand our, not when a contemporary with less seasons played than LBJ already has the same amount of rings, and you can forget about it if Curry ends up with more, which is a real possibility.


Winning is the objective of sports, so the best winners (as the best player and statistical leader) are the goats

Any notion that it's more important to accumulate longevity stats than win is a joke

Reggie Miller scored 3000 points more than Bird but Bird's rings and superior production rate makes him far superior

[dankok8]

Lebron needs to lead his team to 2 more rings to surpass MJ. At the point the main accomplishments will be equal and Lebron gets the nod for longevity. But with 4 rings he isn't the GOAT. And Kareem has 6 rings but only 4 as the best or co-best player so he isn't the GOAT either.

You can't ignore accomplishments. GOATs in every sport are almost invariably the most accomplished players and that's how it should be. Putting Russell > Jordan is defensible. Putting Lebron or Kareem over him is not.

The other aspect of being the best ever is being better and dominating your competition. Lebron's 2007 finals, 2010 semis, 2011 finals, 2014 finals, getting outplayed or played to a draw by Durant in 2017 and 2018, 2021 first round etc. He simply had a lot of instances where he wasn't clearly the best player on the court. And he lost many times as the favorite or even as underdog got totally humiliated.

[guy]

I "hear" what you're saying and in many ways agree with some of it, but I think using sources such as "All Time Greatest Athletes" list is not the most reliable means of gauging GOAT conversations at the time. Those lists and series seemed to have focused a lot more on societal and cultural impact as well as popularity as much as they did actual on court and career achievements. I don't particularly see those as GOAT (i.e. greatest player) lists.

Not sure about that. I can easily argue that Kareem had more societal/cultural impact then Wilt especially given how front and center he was in the civil rights movement. In fact you can make that argument for Russell/Bird/Magic as well over Wilt, but Wilt is second on both lists when it comes to NBA player.

You can argue that Kareem isn't getting as much love in those lists because his peak/prime presided over the least relevant era in NBA history. That's possible. But its possible part of the reason it was the least relevant era because there wasn't a player / dynasty that dominated the league during that time the way the Russel's Celtics/Magic's Lakers (yes obviously Kareem was part of the team but he wasn't the face like Magic was) / Jordan Bulls did. But thats also kind of the knock on him.



But you are correct as GOAT criteria has always been fluid depending on which player someone wanted to prop up. If we want to argue that "Finals appearances" and longevity are used today to strengthen LeBron's argument, we have to admit that losing before one gets to the Finals many times, and then going undefeated in the Finals once you finally get there was a criterion created to boost MJ's GOAT candidacy.

I don't remember exactly when the 6-0 stuff started, but it really became prevalent in response to people up propping Lebron's final appearances, win or lose, mostly losses. Its a natural and logical response that if someone props up ultimately losing outcomes, someone else will prop up the fact that the other guy wasn't losing in those situations at all.



Also, using Kareem as an example, I did a thread several years ago pulling articles from 1975-1984 whereas many people were claiming Kareem to be GOAT. (It seems like it was deleted in the great "ISH purge.") Kareem's status and GOAT candidacy seemed to start slipping as Magic and Bird became more popular, and he became known as that slow old guy with the boring shot whose career Magic supposedly saved. Honestly, I was a victim of that very mentality. I started watching the game such as to understand what was going on in 1987 during Magic's peak. For most of my college years in the 90's I actually considered Magic to be my GOAT. Interestingly though, I never heard one person argue that Magic and Kareem each losing four times in the Finals or Bird losing twice damaged either of their GOAT candidacy. Again, that criterion seemed to gain more traction as Jordan proponents sought more ammunition against LeBron, as though there were not other more sensible and substantive arguments.

Oh I'm not claiming that Kareem wasn't getting GOAT claims. And I'm sure he was getting way more before Magic/Bird/Jordan enhanced their legacy to a certain point. Which is kind of natural i.e. other candidates get in the picture will lower a past player's claim.

[guy]

You're right about this. It's revisionist history that has placed Kareem as high as he is being placed now. I too remember a very different narrative growing up and Kareem was not as high as some of the other guys mentioned.

Yup. I'm not saying longevity doesn't matter, it does. The way I think about it is if I'm drafting a player to build around with the objective to win the most championships possible, who would I pick? That takes into account both prime/peak play, longevity, leadership, mental toughness. It removes all the irrelevant statistical achievements that don't necessarily mean anything when it comes to actually contributing to winning (ex. Jordan, Lebron, Kareem are obviously great scorers which is a huge part of their contribution to building winning teams, but the actual fact that Kareem and Lebron are near 40K points and Jordan has 10 scoring titles doesn't actually mean much when it comes to that).

So yes, longevity comes into play with that, but it also removes alot of the irrelevant seasons when it comes to building around someone to win a championship. I'll be honest, I can't speak to much to Kareem, because alot of it is based on what I've heard and read - so you can say I shouldn't have a comment at all on Kareem, but its a free country so f*ck it.

But when it comes to Jordan/Lebron, Jordan's 86, 95, 02, 03 seasons and Lebron's 04, 19, 21, 22 seasons are all kind of irrelevant cause they either weren't good enough or didn't play enough (you really can't find a season where the best player on a championship team didn't play at least 70% of the season). So yes, even with that being the case Lebron has Jordan beat when it comes to longevity, but then overall I'd argue that given what happened in 2010 and 2011, he couldn't withstand the pressure when he was actually expected to win and not just play with house money as an underdog and was bound to have at least 1-2 seasons if not more, where he would have historic choke jobs in those situations, before finally winning. I don't think that was the situation with Jordan, so that makes the longevity even less important to me. And that's not even getting into how I believe Jordan's non-ball dominant style of play, his greater willingness to be coached, his better and more consistent effort and leadership on defense, his greater clutch ability/relentless/will to win even after Lebron exercised his demons, the greater team continuity his way supported (he was an asshole, but players/coaches weren't constantly on the chopping block with the threat that Jordan might leave if the team doesn't get better) was all more conducive to winning championships. I think all this factors outweigh the longevity advantage Lebron has over Jordan, which is also the main reason he's going to destroy Jordan in a bunch of individual statistical achievements.

[8Ball]

Lebron needs to lead his team to 2 more rings to surpass MJ. At the point the main accomplishments will be equal and Lebron gets the nod for longevity. But with 4 rings he isn't the GOAT. And Kareem has 6 rings but only 4 as the best or co-best player so he isn't the GOAT either.

You can't ignore accomplishments. GOATs in every sport are almost invariably the most accomplished players and that's how it should be. Putting Russell > Jordan is defensible. Putting Lebron or Kareem over him is not.

The other aspect of being the best ever is being better and dominating your competition. Lebron's 2007 finals, 2010 semis, 2011 finals, 2014 finals, getting outplayed or played to a draw by Durant in 2017 and 2018, 2021 first round etc. He simply had a lot of instances where he wasn't clearly the best player on the court. And he lost many times as the favorite or even as underdog got totally humiliated.

How is Russell over Jordan defensible?


You can't be the GOAT if you have very bad offensive ability. Can't shoot, cant shoot fts, no post moves, not much of a passer.


Your last paragraph is insane and only the minority think the way you do including 3ball.
2007 Bron was up against the stacked spurs by himself.
2010 he was a one man team vs big 3 celtics.
2017 and 2018 was against most stacked warriors team ever.


If you hold all the above against Bron, then fine, be consistent and put it on Jordan that he lost 3 years in a row to Isiah Thomas.
Also getting swept twice by Larry Bird.
Losing to Shaq as well.

So dominating the competition didn't happen all the time in Jordan's case either.


You aren't being intellectually honest when the criteria you impose isn't even met by Jordan.

[2much_knowledge]

Interesting. So Skip Bayless' opinion is worth more than anyone else because of how much he makes?

By that logic.. seems about right

Le -9 lol

[2much_knowledge]

:oldlol: @ calling someone's opinion "worthless" even though he literally gets paid for his opinion.
Absolutely STEAMING.

https://64.media.tumblr.com/4bd8e69ec4ecb068738d73f000fb1ab2/02e593084d0ab90e-49/s400x600/0c4a7c5781d8fb2e9af974ff2e9b7961a0a5e034.gifv

So a guy who claimed that Curry would never ever make another final deserves to get paid? Lol

[8Ball]

So a guy who claimed that Curry would never ever make another final deserves to get paid? Lol

Deserves has nothing to do with anything.

People want his opinion so he gets paid to be on TV. Nick Wright was wrong about Curry but his Jordan vs LeBron takes has been correct.

[3ba11]

2007 Bron was up against the stacked spurs by himself.
2010 he was a one man team vs big 3 celtics.





Why didn't Jordan wet the bed then?

When Jordan had no help and faced maximum defensive attention, he still dominated, while Lebron wet the bed when all eyes were on him

This isn't opinion - Lebron has many BAD SERIES and Jordan has none..

It's a fact that Lebron sucked in 2010 semis, 2007 Finals, 2008 semis, 2021 first round, 2011 Finals, and 2014 Finals (not dominant and a historic embarrassment).

Ultimately, Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick (no carry-jobs against good teams in 2 decades of playing).. :confusedshrug:

He simply lacks the brand of ball and elite jumpshooting skill needed to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load in Finals), so he needs all-time scorers and elite scorers at sidekick to nearly match his Finals scoring.

Btw, in addition to wetting the bed in many series, Lebron was also outscored by teammates in many series and entire playoff runs, while also having many series at 24 ppg or less..

None of this compare to Jordan - Jordan is obviously far superior and dominated the NBA much more than Lebron.

[theman93]

Deserves has nothing to do with anything.

People want his opinion so he gets paid to be on TV. Nick Wright was wrong about Curry but his Jordan vs LeBron takes has been correct.

People want Skip Bayless' opinion so he gets paid more than any other talking head to be on TV. Therefor Skip ranking Lebron 9th all time is the actual correct opinion.

[theman93]

By that logic.. seems about right

Le -9 lol

Yep. Lebron is ranked 9th all-time by the highest paid sports talking head. Therefor his opinion holds the most weight and is the one that's actually correct. :roll:

[TheMan]

Yep. Lebron is ranked 9th all-time by the highest paid sports talking head. Therefor his opinion holds the most weight and is the one that's actually correct. :roll:

Ok, I'm a LeBron detractor as much as the next guy but come on, 9th all time??? :facepalm

Curry knocked him out of top 10, come on now :lol

[8Ball]

Why didn't Jordan wet the bed then?

When Jordan had no help and faced maximum defensive attention, he still dominated, while Lebron wet the bed when all eyes were on him

This isn't opinion - Lebron has many BAD SERIES and Jordan has none..

It's a fact that Lebron sucked in 2010 semis, 2007 Finals, 2008 semis, 2021 first round, 2011 Finals, and 2014 Finals (not dominant and a historic embarrassment).

Ultimately, Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with poor scoring and efficiency from a sidekick (no carry-jobs against good teams in 2 decades of playing).. :confusedshrug:

He simply lacks the brand of ball and elite jumpshooting skill needed to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load in Finals), so he needs all-time scorers and elite scorers at sidekick to nearly match his Finals scoring.

Btw, in addition to wetting the bed in many series, Lebron was also outscored by teammates in many series and entire playoff runs, while also having many series at 24 ppg or less..

None of this compare to Jordan - Jordan is obviously far superior and dominated the NBA much more than Lebron.

We already covered this:

LeBron's accomplishments and dominance are simply superior to everyone's

In 3 pointer history, only LeBron went to 10 finals. Only LeBron has made 18 all-nba teams out of 19 seasons. Only LeBron has made 13 all-nba 1st teams. Beat a 73 win team. Only LeBron can come back from 3-1 deficit against 73 win team and win the greatest championship of all time. Only LeBron has all time scoring record + 10 000 in assists as the teams playmaker. Only LeBron can lead all players in all categories points, assists, rebounds, steals, blocks in a playoff series. Only LeBron went to 3 different teams and built them into championship contender. Only LeBron has the most 30 PER playoff runs. Only LeBron can average 25 ppg minimum for 18 seasons straight. Only LeBron can drag bag teams to finals 2007 / 2018.

[8Ball]

People want Skip Bayless' opinion so he gets paid more than any other talking head to be on TV. Therefor Skip ranking Lebron 9th all time is the actual correct opinion.

Skip is going to die soon as a 70 year old man.

There are zero basketball TV opinion people that have the same opinion about LeBron as Skip. So that anti LeBron opinion that you love will die out with Skip. That's the end of it. The LeBron haters that used to be on TV don't even get booked anymore.


Everyone, even Draymond Green has come around and accepted that Bron is the GOAT or #2. Bill Simmons, Ric bucher, Woj, all these ex-LeBron haters have converted.


Bill Simmons will re-write the LeBron chapter and already has Bron edging over his beloved Bill Russell.

[Gohan]

Skip is going to die soon as a 70 year old man.

There are zero basketball TV opinion people that have the same opinion about LeBron as Skip. So that anti LeBron opinion that you love will die out with Skip. That's the end of it. The LeBron haters that used to be on TV don't even get booked anymore.


Everyone, even Draymond Green has come around and accepted that Bron is the GOAT or #2. Bill Simmons, Ric bucher, Woj, all these ex-LeBron haters have converted.


Bill Simmons will re-write the LeBron chapter and already has Bron edging over his beloved Bill Russell.


Dont take draymonds opinion seriously, youll regret it in future arguments hes about to get exposed just warning you

[theman93]

Skip is going to die soon as a 70 year old man.

There are zero basketball TV opinion people that have the same opinion about LeBron as Skip. So that anti LeBron opinion that you love will die out with Skip. That's the end of it. The LeBron haters that used to be on TV don't even get booked anymore.


Everyone, even Draymond Green has come around and accepted that Bron is the GOAT or #2. Bill Simmons, Ric bucher, Woj, all these ex-LeBron haters have converted.


Bill Simmons will re-write the LeBron chapter and already has Bron edging over his beloved Bill Russell.

/yawn

You moved the goal posts, nice try. The two highest paid talking heads in sports, Bayless and Stephen A, both have MJ as the GOAT. Therefor their opinions are the opinions that matter the most and Wright's can be thrown to the way side. :lol

Even one of the innovators of the "new media" Reddick has Jordan the GOAT over Lebron. :lol

[Elosha]

We already covered this:

LeBron's accomplishments and dominance are simply superior to everyone's

In 3 pointer history, only LeBron went to 10 finals. Only LeBron has made 18 all-nba teams out of 19 seasons. Only LeBron has made 13 all-nba 1st teams. Beat a 73 win team. Only LeBron can come back from 3-1 deficit against 73 win team and win the greatest championship of all time. Only LeBron has all time scoring record + 10 000 in assists as the teams playmaker. Only LeBron can lead all players in all categories points, assists, rebounds, steals, blocks in a playoff series. Only LeBron went to 3 different teams and built them into championship contender. Only LeBron has the most 30 PER playoff runs. Only LeBron can average 25 ppg minimum for 18 seasons straight. Only LeBron can drag bag teams to finals 2007 / 2018.

If the last four years are any indication, LeBron is going to end his career with a whimper despite stacking his team with multiple All-Stars. He's basically racking up meaningless regular season stats in one of the easiest defensive eras while trying to stack the deck with his hand-picked Laker teammates, which overall has failed miserably.

LeBron has the most turnovers of all time. He has one of the most, if not the most, Finals losses of all time, both by series and total game losses, often getting swept or blown out by historic proportions. Many times throughout those series, the commentators would state he is giving up, failing to play defense and/or playing scared, and everyone knew it at the time, such as against 2010 Orlando (last game), 2011 Dallas, San Antonio in 2014, and 2021 Phoenix But those realizations usually get swept aside when he starts his next season of glowing regular season stats.

Jordan was simply better. He was more clutch, he had numerous moments in his career throughout both the regular season and especially the playoffs that are unforgettable. He was a superior offensive threat throughout his career and the better defensive player. When you're doing a GOAT comparison, longevity should only be the deciding factor if one player had an extremely short career and career stats were not all that high. Neither are true for Jordan. He still has ATG totals and better individual stats, as well as greater playoff success.

He was a better player game to game than LBJ. A bunch of meaningless irrelevant seasons that LeBron uses to stack his individual stats really don't matter all that much in the GOAT debate. He has little true leadership on his current team, the Lakers are a cancer, and he's a huge contributing factor to that.

LeBron is great, possibly # 2, but guys like Nick Wright are simply prisoners of the now.

[3ba11]

Reddick has Jordan the GOAT over Lebron. :lol





He does?

Where?

[dankok8]

How is Russell over Jordan defensible?


You can't be the GOAT if you have very bad offensive ability. Can't shoot, cant shoot fts, no post moves, not much of a passer.


Your last paragraph is insane and only the minority think the way you do including 3ball.
2007 Bron was up against the stacked spurs by himself.
2010 he was a one man team vs big 3 celtics.
2017 and 2018 was against most stacked warriors team ever.


If you hold all the above against Bron, then fine, be consistent and put it on Jordan that he lost 3 years in a row to Isiah Thomas.
Also getting swept twice by Larry Bird.
Losing to Shaq as well.

So dominating the competition didn't happen all the time in Jordan's case either.

You aren't being intellectually honest when the criteria you impose isn't even met by Jordan.

Those arguments against Russell are why most people don't have him as GOAT but with his accomplishments you can definitely make a case and no one should bat an eye. Accomplishments are king.

It's not just about Lebron not winning those series (although 2011 he should have definitely won) but that he played poorly. Lebron has a lot of series where he wasn't the best player on the court. Jordan has no series losses in which he was outplayed by anyone. To pretend that doesn't matter is kind of crazy.

[theman93]

He does?

Where?

Bussin' With the Boys podcast

[sdot_thadon]

Kareem was an outlier. All the other all-time greats considered at the time (Russell, Wilt, Bird, Magic, Jordan) played 13-14 seasons. Clearly since Kareem wasn't the unanimous GOAT, and mostly wasn't considered the GOAT, and in many lists wasn't even considered 2nd, the 6-7 extra years he played weren't as valued.

He wasn't the unanimous goat, there was and is still is no such thing lol. Everyone's case is challenged in today's era. He definitely was spoken about as the goat, Wilt in particular wasn't too happy about it in retirement. And this is the main disservice done to both Kareem and Lebron. The belief that their cases only rest on longevity, thats an incredibly disingenuous notion. They both have among the best peaks ever, and Noones peak in the top handful blows our the rest. Those guys are in great shape in the debate WITHOUT the longevity stuff, it's just extra things in their cases other guys can't boast.



Kareem and Lebron played 19-20 seasons, Jordan played 15. You're acting like Jordan only played 6-7 seasons. I'd see your point then. Even if you want to say Jordan being deemed the GOAT at his first retirement was a ridiculous notion given Kareem's career was over twice as long at that point, looking back I'd agree with you there.
Mj was definitely given goat consideration after the 1st 3peat. But you have to remember in 1993's world there were a ton more fans that actually got to see Wilt, Kareem and Russell that disagreed with Mjs goat case. We got wrapped up in the narrative of Michael Jordan and it sometimes doesn't allow him to be fairly compared with anyone else because of the refusal to see him as anything other than angelic. Try to judge him honestly with the same skepticism you direct at any other player and you'll understand where I'm coming from. And I say this as a 3ball level Jordan Stan till my early 20s lol.



He didn't play in the modern era and he wasn't all around as great of a player since he didn't score much. I mean, scoring is a big deal regardless of how much people want to act like its not. I'm just saying thats the argument. I would definitely consider Russell a GOAT candidate.
There's really Noone here qualified to say what Russell or Kareem were as players because most of us were kids or young men in Mjs era. Russell was said to have revolutionized defense in a similar fashion as Steph has done for offense. He was an anomaly that changed the way the game was played. It just so happend to be on the defensive end rather than scoring. His Supreme dominance on that end led to more winning than we've ever seen in team sports. Only time has diminished his legend and goat case.

[SATAN]

/yawn

You moved the goal posts, nice try. The two highest paid talking heads in sports, Bayless and Stephen A, both have MJ as the GOAT. Therefor their opinions are the opinions that matter the most and Wright's can be thrown to the way side. :lol



You really are a moron.

[kuniva_dAMiGhTy]

Dont really see the argument for Bron>Mike, who did more in less time.

That aside though...

Ranking Luka #20 is laughable. Wright has Luka over dudes like KG, CP3 and DRob :lol Absolutely tragic.

[Johnny32]

Those arguments against Russell are why most people don't have him as GOAT but with his accomplishments you can definitely make a case and no one should bat an eye. Accomplishments are king.

It's not just about Lebron not winning those series (although 2011 he should have definitely won) but that he played poorly. Lebron has a lot of series where he wasn't the best player on the court. Jordan has no series losses in which he was outplayed by anyone. To pretend that doesn't matter is kind of crazy.

wrong on both counts.

[kawhileonard2]

wrong on both counts.

Both are accurate. Lebron lost finals mvp's to guys at his position. Got outplayed by Dirk, Tony, Kawhi, Durant to name a few. All won finals mvp's as well when Lebron was in the series.

[Johnny32]

Both are accurate. Lebron lost finals mvp's to guys at his position. Got outplayed by Dirk, Tony, Kawhi, Durant to name a few. All won finals mvp's as well when Lebron was in the series.

lebron has been the best player in every series since 2012. only arguable ones are kd with a stacked deck and pho in 21 on one leg. in 17/18 he's better than mj in the finals anyway so irrelevant. lebron from 12-20 is better than mj from 90-98. stats agree with me. head to head or vs league average. your only argument is a team accomplishment. you bore me.

[kawhileonard2]

lebron has been the best player in every series since 2012. only arguable ones are kd with a stacked deck and pho in 21 on one leg. in 17/18 he's better than mj in the finals anyway so irrelevant. lebron from 12-20 is better than mj from 90-98. stats agree with me. head to head or vs league average. your only argument is a team accomplishment. you bore me.

Iggy won finals mvp, Kawhi won mvp, Durant won mvp twice. All guys who played same position as Lebron. If this is not correct prove me wrong.