The biggest talent/skill gap between LeBron and MJ is playmaking

[GrayGoat]

LeBron’s playmaking is the largest talent/skill gap between the two. Lebron can score and average 30+ for a season, he has been an elite defender in the past, he's won championships and FMVP's but the one thing that is actually a big difference between the two is Lebron's facilitating. It's miles ahead of Jordan and isn't particularly close. Lebron being 7th all time in assists is madness. Lebron is gonna finish his career with more than DOUBLE Jordan in that category.

[3ba11]

Jordan averaged more assists than Lebron for the first 9 years of their playoff career (85-93' vs 06-14'), until Curry's pace and space era made offense easier for everyone.

That's the historical record

So there's a much bigger scoring gap, and it's the main category, while individual assists are a secondary category - TEAM assists are more important and Lebron is bad at that

[GrayGoat]

Jordan averaged more assists than Lebron for the first 9 years of their playoff career (85-93' vs 06-14'), until Curry's pace and space era made offense easier for everyone.

That's the historical record

So there's a much bigger scoring gap, and it's the main category, while individual assists are a secondary category - TEAM assists are more important and Lebron is bad at that


32k vs 37k. The gap is widening

[eliteballer]

It’s LeBrons steroid usage.

[GrayGoat]

It’s LeBrons steroid usage.

Proof? Pics?

[3ba11]

32k vs 37k. The gap is widening


Playing at a lower level for longer (longevity) means exactly nothing

Lebron never averaged 30 for his career and can't defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load in Finals), so he needs all-time scorers and elite 1st options at sidekick to nearly match his scoring.

That's nothing compared to Jordan - Lebron is nowhere near Jordan as a scorer.. He can't score with good brand of ball or while the ball moves, so teammates don't play to capacity and the teams are worse than Jordan's

[Johnny32]

It's more than just playmaking though. Lebron is a much much better big game rebounder. He's averaged double digit rebs in many playoffs series. Dominating in the paint when needed. Mj simply wasn't capable of doing the same. On either end. He got bullied by those bigger than him. Lebron is that bully.

[Johnny32]

32k vs 37k. The gap is widening

Rem when lebron tied mj in career fga but had scored thousands more points? That was funny.

[3ba11]

It's more than just playmaking though. Lebron is a much much better big game rebounder. He's averaged double digit rebs in many playoffs series. Dominating in the paint when needed. Mj simply wasn't capable of doing the same. On either end. He got bullied by those bigger than him. Lebron is that bully.


Lebron is a massive loser that didn't do anything you said

Jordan got more offensive rebounds

Jordan also dominated the post and was a GOAT post player - Lebron never was

Jordan also had far superior team offenses with far less offensive help, so Lebron's passing was BAD

Lebron just dominates the ball and takes forever to set up plays - anyone could play that way but it's losing basketball against good teams and requires ridiculous supporting talent.. It requires so much talent that super-teams must be formed or stars like AD must stage unprecedented coups to leave their team - that's how much help Lebron's garbage passing and beginner brand of ball requires (Luka-ball, low team assists)

[Full Court]

Playing at a lower level for longer (longevity) means exactly nothing



^This exactly.

The biggest skill gap between the two is hard to nail down since there are so many of them.

Shooting skill - Jordan blows Bronie away.
Free throws - ditto.
Footwork - Jordan by a mile.
Scoring while pressured - Jordan by about 10 miles.
Scoring in the clutch - ditto.
Man to man defense - Jordan again.

Just to name a few.

[Spurs m8]

^This exactly.

The biggest skill gap between the two is hard to nail down since there are so many of them.

Shooting skill - Jordan blows Bronie away.
Free throws - ditto.
Footwork - Jordan by a mile.
Scoring while pressured - Jordan by about 10 miles.
Scoring in the clutch - ditto.
Man to man defense - Jordan again.

Just to name a few.

What about turnovers bruh?

Bron got the most in history....MJ can't top that one

[GrayGoat]

It's more than just playmaking though. Lebron is a much much better big game rebounder. He's averaged double digit rebs in many playoffs series. Dominating in the paint when needed. Mj simply wasn't capable of doing the same. On either end. He got bullied by those bigger than him. Lebron is that bully.

Facts my dude

[GrayGoat]

If you went on pure volume and load carrying than wilt wipes the floor with 50ppg

[LeGoat4Life]

Biggest gap is winning

MJ was a winner

Lebron was a failure loser

[Full Court]

If you went on pure volume and load carrying than wilt wipes the floor with 50ppg

True. Which is one reason why Wilt is ahead of Lebron in all-time rankings too.

[kawhileonard2]

This is the biggest gap

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?489748-When-KD-and-Lebron-go-head-to-head
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=459570

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495113-Vassilis-Spanoulis-Giannis-Antetokounmpo-s-And-Luka-Doncic-s-Idol-Retired
https://www.espn.com/olympics/wbc2006/news/story?id=2568543

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495940-Lebron-with-Shaq-2nd-round-exit-Giannis-with-Middleton-a-Title

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495955-Giannis-just-blasted-those-who-join-super-teams-in-post-conference-interview

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?493982-Devin-Booker-Vs-Lebron-James-who-is-better-currently

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496095-Devin-Booker-put-up-47-his-playoff-career-high-on-Lebron

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496253-Lebron-won-2-bronze-medals-for-the-United-States-of-America-How

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496256-Lebron-with-Tim-Duncan-Bronze-Medal-in-Olympics-Vince-with-KG-Gold-Medal

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496255-Lebron-with-Carlos-Boozer-No-Playoffs-Deron-Williams-with-Carlos-Boozer-WCF

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496549-Lebron-stacking-the-deck-in-2022-because-he-is-afraid-of-Devin-Booker

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?492941-1-Title-in-11-Years-for-the-Franchise-that-you-originally-played-for


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496831-times-when-each-top-10-player-all-time-Lost-when-they-were-expected-to-win

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?486706-Rob-Parker-LeBron-is-the-FFOAT

Record against teams with an SRS of 5.0 or higher.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?497187-Record-against-teams-with-an-SRS-of-5-0-or-higher

Not 3, not 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 or Playoff Mode Activated or A Storm is Coming
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?494319-Not-3-not-4-5-6-7-8-or-Playoff-Mode-Activated-or-A-Storm-is-Coming/page2


Playoff Mode: ACTIVATED
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?473762-Playoff-Mode-ACTIVATED

Lowest Scoring Supporting Cast Overall Playoffs
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?463869-Lowest-Scoring-Supporting-Cast-Overall-Playoffs/page3


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?499837-Greatest-floor-raise-of-all-time/page2
Lebron played with Shaq who won league mvp and 3 finals mvp's and lost in round 2. Lebron played with Peak Duncan who had won 2 league mvp's and 3 finals mvp's and won bronze medal. Lebron played with Peak Wade who won finals mvp and got outplayed by Jason Terry. Lebron played with Derrick Rose who won mvp under age 30 which was the same as Kevin Durant who won mvp under 30 while both were on Golden State and Cleveland. Lebron played with mulitple PER leaders as well and now Russell Westbrook a league mvp winner and more triple doubles than Oscar Robertson. Yet despite all of that Lebron lost with all of them.


Jarrett Allen vs Gobert and Jarrett Allen vs Lebron
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?499786-Jarrett-Allen-vs-Gobert-and-Jarrett-Allen-vs-Lebron

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500431-Lakers-were-1-in-Preseason-Odds-in-2021-and-Suns-were-14
Was #1 in Preseason odds and lost to a 14th seed in odds

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2021_preseason_odds.html

And Devin Booker walked them down in the playoffs with Devin outplaying Lebron. :confusedshrug:


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500416-Why-did-Pelinka-surround-Lebron-with-a-bullshit-roster
He has peak Anthony Davis, the best player on the 2020 squad and the reason the Lakers did anything as the 2019 Lakers missed the playoffs and 2021 Lakers lost in round 1 when AD wasn't around. He has Prime Melo who won a scoring title and all time leader in scoring for the Olympics. He has Dwight Howard a 3x DPOY and a guy who beat Lebron without HCA. He has Westbrook who is the modern day Oscar Robertson and also won league mvp along with average a Triple Double 4 years in a row. He also has Rondo who is a hall of famer.

Why didn't he play it against Dwight Howard in 2009 when Dwight was dominating http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?459570-How-is-it-even-possible-to-lose-to-Dwight-Howard-in-a-series-with-HCA/page10? Or against Duncan or KG or Dirk? Why did he run away from KD a guy at his position?
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?489748-When-KD-and-Lebron-go-head-to-head

Why didn't he do **** against Booker in the playoffs as well?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496095-Devin-Booker-put-up-47-his-playoff-career-high-on-Lebron


Devin Booker broke Lebron
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500264-Devin-Booker-broke-Lebron&p=14500724


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?503966-3ball-why-can-LeBron-win-with-Irving-but-KD-can-t&p=14584482#post14584482

Lebron won bronze medal twice and lost with HCA 3x. Jordan only won gold medal and never lost with HCA. Prove me wrong!

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500440-Russell-Westbrook-leading-the-league-in-Triple-Doubles-Thus-far-in-2022-Season
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/triple-double-leaders-2021-2022-stats

Expected Championships Won and Titles Over Expected
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500379-Expected-Championships-Won-and-Titles-Over-Expected/page3&p=14503600


How did LeBron go 10-16 vs Kawhi? 7-12 vs Shaq? 17-23 vs Curry?
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500334-How-did-LeBron-go-10-16-vs-Kawhi-7-12-vs-Shaq-17-23-vs-Curry

Top 50 All-Time List - Shot Clock Era = #1
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?497028-Top-50-All-Time-List-Shot-Clock-Era-1&p=14426360&viewfull=1#post14426360


Difference between Lebron and Tmac?
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?494830-Difference-between-Lebron-and-Tmac
Both 0-2 with HCA against 50+ win teams until they joined forces with someone who won as the man. Also won bronze medals.

Tmac lost to Utah in 2007 while Lebron was losing to a career loser in Dwight Howard and also Carlos Arroyo in the Olympics with peak Tim Duncan on his squad despite playing more minutes than Hakeem even played on the 1996 Olympic team.



LeBron's message that makes the NBA shake: A storm is coming
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500734-LeBron-s-message-that-makes-the-NBA-shake-A-storm-is-coming

https://www.marca.com/en/more-sports/2021/04/09/6070b833ca47418e588b45e9.html


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?480740-Vasileios-Spanoulis-gt-gt-gt-Lebron-James
Outplayed Lebron in FIBA and caused America to get another bronze medal and then Greece got spanked in Gold medal final.:oldlol:

http://archive.fiba.com/pages/eng/fa/game/p/gid/A/grid/75/rid/5152/sid/3507/_/2006_FIBA_World_Championship/statistic.html


First Time Ever a team with 2 guys who won MVP missed the playoffs
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?503543-First-Time-Ever-a-team-with-2-guys-who-won-MVP-missed-the-playoffs


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?503981-Why-does-Lebron-have-2-bronze-medals-while-KD-only-has-gold-medals&p=14584371#post14584371

https://media0.giphy.com/media/l0ErLeqamV3UOARsA/giphy.gif

[TheGoatest]

#NeverForget:

Steve Kerr, whose career high assist average is 3.2 averaged more assist than the one-dimensional jordon in the 1998 finals.
Despite playing literally HALF the minutes jordon played. :facepalm

[Spurs m8]

This is the biggest gap

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?489748-When-KD-and-Lebron-go-head-to-head
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=459570

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495113-Vassilis-Spanoulis-Giannis-Antetokounmpo-s-And-Luka-Doncic-s-Idol-Retired
https://www.espn.com/olympics/wbc2006/news/story?id=2568543

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495940-Lebron-with-Shaq-2nd-round-exit-Giannis-with-Middleton-a-Title

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495955-Giannis-just-blasted-those-who-join-super-teams-in-post-conference-interview

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?493982-Devin-Booker-Vs-Lebron-James-who-is-better-currently

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496095-Devin-Booker-put-up-47-his-playoff-career-high-on-Lebron

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496253-Lebron-won-2-bronze-medals-for-the-United-States-of-America-How

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496256-Lebron-with-Tim-Duncan-Bronze-Medal-in-Olympics-Vince-with-KG-Gold-Medal

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496255-Lebron-with-Carlos-Boozer-No-Playoffs-Deron-Williams-with-Carlos-Boozer-WCF

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496549-Lebron-stacking-the-deck-in-2022-because-he-is-afraid-of-Devin-Booker

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?492941-1-Title-in-11-Years-for-the-Franchise-that-you-originally-played-for


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496831-times-when-each-top-10-player-all-time-Lost-when-they-were-expected-to-win

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?486706-Rob-Parker-LeBron-is-the-FFOAT

Record against teams with an SRS of 5.0 or higher.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?497187-Record-against-teams-with-an-SRS-of-5-0-or-higher

Not 3, not 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 or Playoff Mode Activated or A Storm is Coming
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?494319-Not-3-not-4-5-6-7-8-or-Playoff-Mode-Activated-or-A-Storm-is-Coming/page2


Playoff Mode: ACTIVATED
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?473762-Playoff-Mode-ACTIVATED

Lowest Scoring Supporting Cast Overall Playoffs
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?463869-Lowest-Scoring-Supporting-Cast-Overall-Playoffs/page3


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?499837-Greatest-floor-raise-of-all-time/page2
Lebron played with Shaq who won league mvp and 3 finals mvp's and lost in round 2. Lebron played with Peak Duncan who had won 2 league mvp's and 3 finals mvp's and won bronze medal. Lebron played with Peak Wade who won finals mvp and got outplayed by Jason Terry. Lebron played with Derrick Rose who won mvp under age 30 which was the same as Kevin Durant who won mvp under 30 while both were on Golden State and Cleveland. Lebron played with mulitple PER leaders as well and now Russell Westbrook a league mvp winner and more triple doubles than Oscar Robertson. Yet despite all of that Lebron lost with all of them.


Jarrett Allen vs Gobert and Jarrett Allen vs Lebron
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?499786-Jarrett-Allen-vs-Gobert-and-Jarrett-Allen-vs-Lebron

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500431-Lakers-were-1-in-Preseason-Odds-in-2021-and-Suns-were-14
Was #1 in Preseason odds and lost to a 14th seed in odds

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2021_preseason_odds.html

And Devin Booker walked them down in the playoffs with Devin outplaying Lebron. :confusedshrug:


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500416-Why-did-Pelinka-surround-Lebron-with-a-bullshit-roster
He has peak Anthony Davis, the best player on the 2020 squad and the reason the Lakers did anything as the 2019 Lakers missed the playoffs and 2021 Lakers lost in round 1 when AD wasn't around. He has Prime Melo who won a scoring title and all time leader in scoring for the Olympics. He has Dwight Howard a 3x DPOY and a guy who beat Lebron without HCA. He has Westbrook who is the modern day Oscar Robertson and also won league mvp along with average a Triple Double 4 years in a row. He also has Rondo who is a hall of famer.

Why didn't he play it against Dwight Howard in 2009 when Dwight was dominating http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?459570-How-is-it-even-possible-to-lose-to-Dwight-Howard-in-a-series-with-HCA/page10? Or against Duncan or KG or Dirk? Why did he run away from KD a guy at his position?
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?489748-When-KD-and-Lebron-go-head-to-head

Why didn't he do **** against Booker in the playoffs as well?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496095-Devin-Booker-put-up-47-his-playoff-career-high-on-Lebron


Devin Booker broke Lebron
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500264-Devin-Booker-broke-Lebron&p=14500724


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?503966-3ball-why-can-LeBron-win-with-Irving-but-KD-can-t&p=14584482#post14584482

Lebron won bronze medal twice and lost with HCA 3x. Jordan only won gold medal and never lost with HCA. Prove me wrong!

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500440-Russell-Westbrook-leading-the-league-in-Triple-Doubles-Thus-far-in-2022-Season
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/triple-double-leaders-2021-2022-stats

Expected Championships Won and Titles Over Expected
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500379-Expected-Championships-Won-and-Titles-Over-Expected/page3&p=14503600


How did LeBron go 10-16 vs Kawhi? 7-12 vs Shaq? 17-23 vs Curry?
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500334-How-did-LeBron-go-10-16-vs-Kawhi-7-12-vs-Shaq-17-23-vs-Curry

Top 50 All-Time List - Shot Clock Era = #1
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?497028-Top-50-All-Time-List-Shot-Clock-Era-1&p=14426360&viewfull=1#post14426360


Difference between Lebron and Tmac?
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?494830-Difference-between-Lebron-and-Tmac
Both 0-2 with HCA against 50+ win teams until they joined forces with someone who won as the man. Also won bronze medals.

Tmac lost to Utah in 2007 while Lebron was losing to a career loser in Dwight Howard and also Carlos Arroyo in the Olympics with peak Tim Duncan on his squad despite playing more minutes than Hakeem even played on the 1996 Olympic team.



LeBron's message that makes the NBA shake: A storm is coming
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500734-LeBron-s-message-that-makes-the-NBA-shake-A-storm-is-coming

https://www.marca.com/en/more-sports/2021/04/09/6070b833ca47418e588b45e9.html


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?480740-Vasileios-Spanoulis-gt-gt-gt-Lebron-James
Outplayed Lebron in FIBA and caused America to get another bronze medal and then Greece got spanked in Gold medal final.:oldlol:

http://archive.fiba.com/pages/eng/fa/game/p/gid/A/grid/75/rid/5152/sid/3507/_/2006_FIBA_World_Championship/statistic.html


First Time Ever a team with 2 guys who won MVP missed the playoffs
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?503543-First-Time-Ever-a-team-with-2-guys-who-won-MVP-missed-the-playoffs


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?503981-Why-does-Lebron-have-2-bronze-medals-while-KD-only-has-gold-medals&p=14584371#post14584371

https://media0.giphy.com/media/l0ErLeqamV3UOARsA/giphy.gif

Thus never gets old :roll:

They ask questions and get absolutely ethered from every direction

[TheMan]

Biggest gap was in mentality. MJ was a killer, had a never die attitude and didn't GAF if you liked him or not while LeBron is a front running insecure beta who wants to be loved.

That's why MJ did more in less time while LBJ is stacking up useless stats in order to compensate.

[1987_Lakers]

Nice thread OP. Agreed.

[HoopsNY]

Jordan averaged more assists than Lebron for the first 9 years of their playoff career (85-93' vs 06-14'), until Curry's pace and space era made offense easier for everyone.

That's the historical record

So there's a much bigger scoring gap, and it's the main category, while individual assists are a secondary category - TEAM assists are more important and Lebron is bad at that

This is a good point. I think the two are closer (though I'd give LeBron the edge slightly), than most people realize.

[AirBonner]

Yeah MJ only has half of LeBron’s career assists they are close lmao fvxking dumbass Jordan Stan’s

[3ba11]

Yeah MJ only has half of LeBron’s career assists they are close lmao fvxking dumbass Jordan Stan’s


Anytime someone touts longevity, we know they were special education during school

Reggie Miller scored 3000 points more than Bird, but Bird is the better scorer.. PPG reveals this along with superior winning

[Hey Yo]

Anytime someone touts longevity, we know they were special education during school

Reggie Miller scored 3000 points more than Bird, but Bird is the better scorer.. PPG reveals this along with superior winning

MJ chose to not have longevity. Nobody made him quit in his prime in 94. Nor did they again after the 98 season.

19yrs to play 15 seasons.... that's all on him.

[3ba11]

MJ chose to not have longevity. Nobody made him quit in his prime in 94. Nor did they again after the 98 season.

19yrs to play 15 seasons.... that's all on him.


Jordan doesn't need longevity to play better basketball than Lebron

He averaged 5 more ppg

He had seasons with MVP/DPOY - that's better than Lebron ever did

Jordan's All-NBA included scoring title and all-defense - that's better than Lebron's All-NBA

Jordan averaged 40 in 5 different series wins - that's better than anyone - no one is remotely close to this

We can go on and on - Jordan played basketball much better.. the number of years means literally nothing - playing at a lower level for longer (longevity) means nothing

[Hey Yo]

MJ could only succeed in one specific offense. That's why when he found out midway through the 98 season that Phil wasn't coming back, he declared he wouldn't be either.

No Phil, no Pip.... no chips.

[TheGoatest]

This is the only way jordon could get to an assist average higher than 6.3 for the only time in his career:

https://images4.imagebam.com/c4/c1/4d/MEBWKJH_o.png

And this blatantly stat-padded apg average he had that season is still beaten by 5 LeBron seasons. :oldlol:

[HoopsNY]

Yeah MJ only has half of LeBron’s career assists they are close lmao fvxking dumbass Jordan Stan’s

Yea, because he's played longer and has seen a much different playing style that has allowed for more free flowing offense between 2015-2022.

I don't think LeBron from '15-'22 is better than LeBron circa '04-'14 where it comes to passing/playmaking. Yet LeBron averages 8.1 assists in the former and 6.9 assists in the latter.

Similarly, in the playoffs, LeBron puts up 8.3 assists from '15-'22 compared to 6.4 assists from '04-'14. To me, what matters most are peaks.

RS Jordan '88-'93: 6.2 assists
RS LeBron '09-'14: 7.1 assists

PS Jordan '88-'93: 6.6 assists
PS LeBron '09-'14: 6.1 assists

Finals Jordan '88-'93: 7.9 assists
Finals LeBron '09-'14: 6.4 assists

The numbers favor LeBron for the regular season but MJ for the postseason and finals. The pace was higher in the late 80s than during LeBron's time, so I think that has to be factored in and adjusted. As a result, it's definitely close.

We can't ignore MJ putting up 10.4 assists playing PG in 1989. You can call it stat-padding, which is what it was, but LeBron has literally done that for most of his peak and prime years from 2013 onward.

We also can't ignore the fact that MJ followed that season being compared to Magic and Isiah with a '91 finals where he put up the 3rd highest APG in finals history (11.4 APG), something that hasn't been done since.

I think these points make up for it. What hurts MJ is that he took a step back and let Harper and Pippen do a lot of setting up on offense from '95-'98, whereas LeBron has always been one to get his teammates involved and tries to find the open man. I think that's where he should get the nod and is a better playmaker than MJ without question.

But peak for peak, it's close.

[AirBonner]

This is the only way jordon could get to an assist average higher than 6.3 for the only time in his career:

https://images4.imagebam.com/c4/c1/4d/MEBWKJH_o.png

And this blatantly stat-padded apg average he had that season is still beaten by 5 LeBron seasons. :oldlol:

Yup the MJ stan above toting that like it’s gods gospel

[HoopsNY]

This is the only way jordon could get to an assist average higher than 6.3 for the only time in his career:

https://images4.imagebam.com/c4/c1/4d/MEBWKJH_o.png

And this blatantly stat-padded apg average he had that season is still beaten by 5 LeBron seasons. :oldlol:

This is the pot calling the kettle black. But I don't expect you or any other LeBron fan/stan to admit that LeBron has been stat-padding for the better part of a full decade.


"I was going to stay out there until I got it," James said. "I wasn't going to let this one slip away. I've had too many games where I was one assist, one rebound away. I wasn't coming out."

https://www.espn.com/nba/recap/_/gameId/400278546

We've seen it last season with his scoring as well. Only LeBron stans act like this doesn't exist.

[AirBonner]

10 years of statpadding? Now we know you are retarded. Carry on

[HoopsNY]

This is the only way jordon could get to an assist average higher than 6.3 for the only time in his career:

https://images4.imagebam.com/c4/c1/4d/MEBWKJH_o.png

And this blatantly stat-padded apg average he had that season is still beaten by 5 LeBron seasons. :oldlol:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kYAlRBQNog&ab_channel=NBillets

:lol


10 years of statpadding? Now we know you are retarded. Carry on


"I was going to stay out there until I got it," James said. "I wasn't going to let this one slip away. I've had too many games where I was one assist, one rebound away. I wasn't coming out."

https://www.espn.com/nba/recap/_/gameId/400278546 :lol

[AirBonner]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kYAlRBQNog&ab_channel=NBillets

:lol





https://www.espn.com/nba/recap/_/gameId/400278546 :lol
Cool and MJ wen to the stat keeping table and asked what he had

[TheGoatest]

LeBron's scoring credentials/facts:

#1 all-time regular season points (soon)
#1 all-time playoff points, by a huge margin
#1 all-time all-star points, by a huge margin
#1 elimination ppg average of all time
#1 closeout ppg average of all time
#1 game 7 ppg average of all time
18 straight 25 ppg seasons (nobody in history has more than 13)
1000+ straight games with 10+ points and counting

jordon's passing/assist credentials:

???...

...Well, not so much in terms of fact-based numbers and data, but more based on:

https://images4.imagebam.com/77/2f/e4/MEBWM1Q_o.gif

:roll:

[Johnny32]

it's not just the all time scoring records.

lebron passed mj in fgm with 300+ less attempts. and when he passed mj in fga he had scored 1000+ more points. also leading the league in scoring at 37 yrs old on record 2pt% kind of makes mj's scoring titles look like a moot point. that's lebron's argument for scoring.

mj's is "i scored more points per gm on a shit ton more attempts per gm, less efficiently"...so did elgin baylor.

[3ba11]

it's not just the all time scoring records.

lebron passed mj in fgm with 300+ less attempts. and when he passed mj in fga he had scored 1000+ more points. also leading the league in scoring at 37 yrs old on record 2pt% kind of makes mj's scoring titles look like a moot point. that's lebron's argument for scoring.

mj's is "i scored more points per gm on a shit ton more attempts per gm, less efficiently...so did elgin baylor.


Lebron needed a lot more FT's

And his efficiency per possession is less than Jordan's because he's the all-time turnover leader

And he always had far more scoring help, so he didn't have the burden that Jordan did - anytime Lebron had Jordan's burden, he usually couldn't hit the broadside of a barn

Lebron can't have good efficiency at 30 attempts like Jordan

Lebron averaged 5 less per game in the playoffs, with only 1.5% more true shooting... So Jordan did what Lebron did, but just more of it (5 more ppg)

[Johnny32]

Lebron needed a lot more FT's

he doesn't though. he hasn't made over 5 fta per gm since probably 2015.

[3ba11]

he doesn't though. he hasn't made over 5 fta per gm since probably 2015.


He needed more FT's

he played many more seasons

That's the whole point - the fraud has 5 more seasons and less accomplishment

[Johnny32]

He needed more FT's

he played many more seasons

That's the whole point - the fraud has 5 more seasons and less accomplishment

you're in denial and it's embarrassing.

[3ba11]

you're in denial and it's embarrassing.


About what?

Jordan was a far superior scorer and so were a lot of guys

Lebron was never an all-time scorer

What's his go-to move - the stiff arm?

He can't shoot well at Jordan's burden/volume - see the 07" or 15' Finals

[3ba11]

.
Thread Cliffs


Lebron averaged 5 less points in the playoffs and needed to be the all-time turnover kingpin to a average 1.6 more assists

So the biggest gap is scoring... 5 > 1.6 and the turnover kingpin

[Johnny32]

thread cliffs

me - lebron passed mj in fgm with 300+ less attempts
tard - Lebron needed a lot more FT's
me - he doesn't though. he hasn't made over 5 fta per gm since probably 2015
tard - He needed more FT's

[2much_knowledge]

Stat geeks are hilarious

[HoopsNY]

Cool and MJ wen to the stat keeping table and asked what he had

Yea, the difference between you and me is that I accept that MJ was stat padding. You don't accept that LeBron has, which is silly since he admits it.

[3ba11]

thread cliffs

me - lebron passed mj in fgm with 300+ less attempts
tard - Lebron needed a lot more FT's
me - he doesn't though. he hasn't made over 5 fta per gm since probably 2015
tard - He needed more FT's


5 FTA for 5 more seasons - he has far more FT's than Jordan for their career, which negates the 300 more fga or whatever you said

Jordan averaged 5 more points with only a 1.5% difference in true shooting, so MJ could carry a bigger load without cratering his efficiency, unlike Lebron - Lebron would shoot like garbage at Jordan's volume, and he did several times

Lebron simply lacks the elite jumpshooting skill and pure/instinctive scoring ability to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load) like Jordan did.. Lebron never defeated maximum defensive attention in the Finals - he needed all-time scorers at sidekick to nearly match his Finals scoring

[Full Court]

Yea, the difference between you and me is that I accept that MJ was stat padding. You don't accept that LeBron has, which is silly since he admits it.

Every player goes for stats. They know they need good stats to get good contracts/increase their market value. The big difference between Jordan and Bronie is that Jordan always put winning first and stats second. With Bronie, his stats are the most important thing. Which, of course, is why he's done so much losing in his career and gets labeled a stat padder.

[Johnny32]

5 FTA for 5 more seasons - he has far more FT's than Jordan for their career, which negates the 300 more fga or whatever you said

"lebron passed mj in fgm with 300+ less attempts"

when is your little autistic brain going to comprehend this has nothing to do with fta?

[Johnny32]

lebron admits to reading box scores to see what he can do better and also how he can help his teammates do better. mj admitted to shamelessly having an entire organization track his every point, rebound, and assist to try and force triple doubles and prove he's an all around player like magic and bird. it's pathetic and embarrassing.

[HoopsNY]

lebron admits to reading box scores to see what he can do better and also how he can help his teammates do better. mj admitted to shamelessly having an entire organization track his every point, rebound, and assist to try and force triple doubles and prove he's an all around player like magic and bird. it's pathetic and embarrassing.

Which is why he said...


"I was going to stay out there until I got it," James said. "I wasn't going to let this one slip away. I've had too many games where I was one assist, one rebound away. I wasn't coming out."

Right...:lol

[Johnny32]

Which is why he said...



Right...:lol

you're almost as desperate as jordone was to try and compare a random quote in a single gm to what mj/bulls organization did for weeks.

[Johnny32]

It was James' third triple-double this season and this one came in just 31 minutes, 30 seconds. His elusive 10th rebound came early in the fourth quarter and he watched the majority of the game from the bench as his team cruised to another victory.

lol dude played 31 mins. even more desperate than i first thought.

[kawhileonard2]

This is the difference

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?489748-When-KD-and-Lebron-go-head-to-head
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=459570

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495113-Vassilis-Spanoulis-Giannis-Antetokounmpo-s-And-Luka-Doncic-s-Idol-Retired
https://www.espn.com/olympics/wbc2006/news/story?id=2568543

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495940-Lebron-with-Shaq-2nd-round-exit-Giannis-with-Middleton-a-Title

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495955-Giannis-just-blasted-those-who-join-super-teams-in-post-conference-interview

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?493982-Devin-Booker-Vs-Lebron-James-who-is-better-currently

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496095-Devin-Booker-put-up-47-his-playoff-career-high-on-Lebron

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496253-Lebron-won-2-bronze-medals-for-the-United-States-of-America-How

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496256-Lebron-with-Tim-Duncan-Bronze-Medal-in-Olympics-Vince-with-KG-Gold-Medal

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496255-Lebron-with-Carlos-Boozer-No-Playoffs-Deron-Williams-with-Carlos-Boozer-WCF

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496549-Lebron-stacking-the-deck-in-2022-because-he-is-afraid-of-Devin-Booker

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?492941-1-Title-in-11-Years-for-the-Franchise-that-you-originally-played-for


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496831-times-when-each-top-10-player-all-time-Lost-when-they-were-expected-to-win

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?486706-Rob-Parker-LeBron-is-the-FFOAT

Record against teams with an SRS of 5.0 or higher.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?497187-Record-against-teams-with-an-SRS-of-5-0-or-higher

Not 3, not 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 or Playoff Mode Activated or A Storm is Coming
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?494319-Not-3-not-4-5-6-7-8-or-Playoff-Mode-Activated-or-A-Storm-is-Coming/page2


Playoff Mode: ACTIVATED
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?473762-Playoff-Mode-ACTIVATED

Lowest Scoring Supporting Cast Overall Playoffs
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?463869-Lowest-Scoring-Supporting-Cast-Overall-Playoffs/page3


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?499837-Greatest-floor-raise-of-all-time/page2
Lebron played with Shaq who won league mvp and 3 finals mvp's and lost in round 2. Lebron played with Peak Duncan who had won 2 league mvp's and 3 finals mvp's and won bronze medal. Lebron played with Peak Wade who won finals mvp and got outplayed by Jason Terry. Lebron played with Derrick Rose who won mvp under age 30 which was the same as Kevin Durant who won mvp under 30 while both were on Golden State and Cleveland. Lebron played with mulitple PER leaders as well and now Russell Westbrook a league mvp winner and more triple doubles than Oscar Robertson. Yet despite all of that Lebron lost with all of them.


Jarrett Allen vs Gobert and Jarrett Allen vs Lebron
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?499786-Jarrett-Allen-vs-Gobert-and-Jarrett-Allen-vs-Lebron

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500431-Lakers-were-1-in-Preseason-Odds-in-2021-and-Suns-were-14
Was #1 in Preseason odds and lost to a 14th seed in odds

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2021_preseason_odds.html

And Devin Booker walked them down in the playoffs with Devin outplaying Lebron. :confusedshrug:


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500416-Why-did-Pelinka-surround-Lebron-with-a-bullshit-roster
He has peak Anthony Davis, the best player on the 2020 squad and the reason the Lakers did anything as the 2019 Lakers missed the playoffs and 2021 Lakers lost in round 1 when AD wasn't around. He has Prime Melo who won a scoring title and all time leader in scoring for the Olympics. He has Dwight Howard a 3x DPOY and a guy who beat Lebron without HCA. He has Westbrook who is the modern day Oscar Robertson and also won league mvp along with average a Triple Double 4 years in a row. He also has Rondo who is a hall of famer.

Why didn't he play it against Dwight Howard in 2009 when Dwight was dominating http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?459570-How-is-it-even-possible-to-lose-to-Dwight-Howard-in-a-series-with-HCA/page10? Or against Duncan or KG or Dirk? Why did he run away from KD a guy at his position?
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?489748-When-KD-and-Lebron-go-head-to-head

Why didn't he do **** against Booker in the playoffs as well?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496095-Devin-Booker-put-up-47-his-playoff-career-high-on-Lebron


Devin Booker broke Lebron
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500264-Devin-Booker-broke-Lebron&p=14500724


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?503966-3ball-why-can-LeBron-win-with-Irving-but-KD-can-t&p=14584482#post14584482

Lebron won bronze medal twice and lost with HCA 3x. Jordan only won gold medal and never lost with HCA. Prove me wrong!

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500440-Russell-Westbrook-leading-the-league-in-Triple-Doubles-Thus-far-in-2022-Season
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/triple-double-leaders-2021-2022-stats

Expected Championships Won and Titles Over Expected
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500379-Expected-Championships-Won-and-Titles-Over-Expected/page3&p=14503600


How did LeBron go 10-16 vs Kawhi? 7-12 vs Shaq? 17-23 vs Curry?
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500334-How-did-LeBron-go-10-16-vs-Kawhi-7-12-vs-Shaq-17-23-vs-Curry

Top 50 All-Time List - Shot Clock Era = #1
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?497028-Top-50-All-Time-List-Shot-Clock-Era-1&p=14426360&viewfull=1#post14426360


Difference between Lebron and Tmac?
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?494830-Difference-between-Lebron-and-Tmac
Both 0-2 with HCA against 50+ win teams until they joined forces with someone who won as the man. Also won bronze medals.

Tmac lost to Utah in 2007 while Lebron was losing to a career loser in Dwight Howard and also Carlos Arroyo in the Olympics with peak Tim Duncan on his squad despite playing more minutes than Hakeem even played on the 1996 Olympic team.



LeBron's message that makes the NBA shake: A storm is coming
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500734-LeBron-s-message-that-makes-the-NBA-shake-A-storm-is-coming

https://www.marca.com/en/more-sports/2021/04/09/6070b833ca47418e588b45e9.html


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?480740-Vasileios-Spanoulis-gt-gt-gt-Lebron-James
Outplayed Lebron in FIBA and caused America to get another bronze medal and then Greece got spanked in Gold medal final.:oldlol:

http://archive.fiba.com/pages/eng/fa/game/p/gid/A/grid/75/rid/5152/sid/3507/_/2006_FIBA_World_Championship/statistic.html


First Time Ever a team with 2 guys who won MVP missed the playoffs
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?503543-First-Time-Ever-a-team-with-2-guys-who-won-MVP-missed-the-playoffs


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?503981-Why-does-Lebron-have-2-bronze-medals-while-KD-only-has-gold-medals&p=14584371#post14584371

https://media0.giphy.com/media/l0ErLeqamV3UOARsA/giphy.gif

[Shooter]

100%


SHUT it DOWN

[Shooter]

LeGap > Mikey Mouse

On nearly all categories:

•Passing
•Defense
•Rebounding
•Playmaking
•Scoring
•Shooting
•Dunking
•Basketball IQ
•Leadership
•Durability
•Will not quit/retire 3 times

MJ was a better FT shooter. That's it...

[HoopsNY]

It was James' third triple-double this season and this one came in just 31 minutes, 30 seconds. His elusive 10th rebound came early in the fourth quarter and he watched the majority of the game from the bench as his team cruised to another victory.

lol dude played 31 mins. even more desperate than i first thought.

Yea, and he exited once he got the triple double :lol

Should we post LeBron staying in the game to get his 10 points last season after the ankle injury? :lol

[kawhileonard2]

LeGap > Mikey Mouse

On nearly all categories:

•Passing
•Defense
•Rebounding
•Playmaking
•Scoring
•Shooting
•Dunking
•Basketball IQ
•Leadership
•Durability
•Will not quit/retire 3 times

MJ was a better FT shooter. That's it...

Except Jordan was better

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29187444/michael-jordan-better-lebron-james-every-way-says-poll-nba-fans

When you prove otherwise let me know. Need a proven site.

[Johnny32]

you're almost as desperate as jordone was to try and compare a random quote in a single gm to what mj/bulls organization did for weeks.


"It was James' third triple-double this season and this one came in just 31 minutes, 30 seconds. His elusive 10th rebound came early in the fourth quarter and he watched the majority of the game from the bench as his team cruised to another victory."

lol dude played 31 mins. even more desperate than i first thought.

x2

[John8204]

I'd say the difference is versatility...LeBron has proven over the course of his career that he can get championship runs with a vast majority of players. Jordan took years of building and tinkering around in Chicago before he was able to win. When he was given the opportunity to basically create his second team in Washington he flopped because the game moved on and he wasn't good enough.

Jordan is more accomplished than Lebron but Lebron is technically the better player.

[theman93]

I'd say the difference is versatility...LeBron has proven over the course of his career that he can get championship runs with a vast majority of players. Jordan took years of building and tinkering around in Chicago before he was able to win. When he was given the opportunity to basically create his second team in Washington he flopped because the game moved on and he wasn't good enough.

Jordan is more accomplished than Lebron but Lebron is technically the better player.

Technically and realistically Jordan is the better player. He has the greater BPM, OBPM, DBPM, WS/48, PER, VORP/season, and a much lower turnover% on greater usage. He's also better on the defensive side of the ball as shown by his awards/accomplishments and is the better scorer also as shown by his awards/accomplishments. And this doesn't even account for winning.

[Johnny32]

advanced nerd stats make me laugh but let's look at their (mj/lbj) top 3 playoff runs using some nerd stats.

vorp

1. 3.4 (lebron 2018)
2. 3.1 (lebron 2012)
3. 3.0 (lebron 2013)

per

1. 37.4 (lebron 2009)
2. 32.2 (lebron 2018)
3. 32.0 (jordone 1991)

win shares

1. 5.8 (lebron 2012)
2. 5.2 (lebron 2013)
3. 5.2 (lebron 2018)

offensive win shares

1. 4.2 (lebron 2012)
2. 4.2 (lebron 2018)
3. 3.7 (lebron 2013)

defensive win shares

1. 1.7 (jordone 1992)
2. 1.6 (lebron 2012)
3. 1.6 (lebron 2007)

ts%

1. 66.8 (lebron 2014)
2. 64.9 (lebron 2017)
3. 64.7 (lebron 2020)

[theman93]

Advanced stats are only part of it. Even when you look their playoff advanced stats Jordan is still superior over the span of their respective careers.

Jordan is also the more accomplished defensive player (more all-defensive teams, DPOY) and offensive player. He is also the more accomplished winner and recognized as the more valuable player (11x MVP/FMVP to Lebron's 8x).

[Axe]

I'd say the difference is versatility...LeBron has proven over the course of his career that he can get championship runs with a vast majority of players. Jordan took years of building and tinkering around in Chicago before he was able to win. When he was given the opportunity to basically create his second team in Washington he flopped because the game moved on and he wasn't good enough.

Jordan is more accomplished than Lebron but Lebron is technically the better player.
This. Ffs some of these zealous numbskulls don't realize that size can matter too when comparing these atgs or players. LeKong is taller and heavier, thus he has an edge in rebounding. His assist numbers are also good for someone big like him.

[Full Court]

I'd say the difference is versatility...LeBron has proven over the course of his career that he can get championship runs with a vast majority of players. Jordan took years of building and tinkering around in Chicago before he was able to win. When he was given the opportunity to basically create his second team in Washington he flopped because the game moved on and he wasn't good enough.

Jordan is more accomplished than Lebron but Lebron is technically the better player.

Silly argument. How many years did it take MJ to win a championship? How many years did it take Lebron? And Lebron only won his because he jumped ship and formed a super team. The only thing Lebron has proven is that he can't win a championship at all unless he stacks a super team.

[2much_knowledge]

LeGap > Mikey Mouse

On nearly all categories:

•Passing
•Defense
•Rebounding
•Playmaking
•Scoring
•Shooting
•Dunking
•Basketball IQ
•Leadership
•Durability
•Will not quit/retire 3 times

MJ was a better FT shooter. That's it...

Even you dont believe al these garbage lol.

[TheMan]

LeGap > Mikey Mouse

On nearly all categories:

•Passing
•Defense
•Rebounding
•Playmaking
•Scoring
•Shooting
•Dunking
•Basketball IQ
•Leadership
•Durability
•Will not quit/retire 3 times

MJ was a better FT shooter. That's it...

https://c.tenor.com/B0BMN_OqeSQAAAAC/never-go-full-retard-tropic-thunder.gif

[rmt]

I'd say the difference is versatility...LeBron has proven over the course of his career that he can get championship runs with a vast majority of players. Jordan took years of building and tinkering around in Chicago before he was able to win. When he was given the opportunity to basically create his second team in Washington he flopped because the game moved on and he wasn't good enough.

Jordan is more accomplished than Lebron but Lebron is technically the better player.

RESULTS (what happened in reality) are what matter - what's the use of being better technically (not that I agree with this regarding MJ/Lebron) if it doesn't result in having better results - if anything that's a negative. Same with versatility - would you say Shaq was versatile? And Lebron jumped teams to get his championships while MJ stuck through thick and thin forming a dynasty.

IMO, the biggest difference between MJ and Lebron is MENTAL.

[John8204]

Jordan was playing in a major market and during an era when guys didn't jump ship every 2-3 seasons. Lebron had to play against teams that collected HOFers...I would also say that Lebron's "Super Team in Miami" was inferior to Boston and San Antonio who each have 4-5 HOF'ers

[rmt]

Jordan was playing in a major market and during an era when guys didn't jump ship every 2-3 seasons. Lebron had to play against teams that collected HOFers...I would also say that Lebron's "Super Team in Miami" was inferior to Boston and San Antonio who each have 4-5 HOF'ers

Collected HOFers?

Parker drafted at #28, Manu drafted #57 - more like a hope and a prayer - Spurs had to go through all the growing pains/development with these 2 future HOFers. Would you call them franchise players?

Didn't Lebron join 2 franchise players in Miami? When has Lebron won with a player who was developed? Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, AD - all franchise players.

[Johnny32]

RESULTS (what happened in reality) are what matter

in eras 30 years apart...it isn't that simple. unless you need it to be because your understanding of the game is so limited you only see the final result.

[Johnny32]

LeGap > Mikey Mouse

On nearly all categories:

•Passing
•Defense
•Rebounding
•Playmaking
•Scoring
•Shooting
•Dunking
•Basketball IQ
•Leadership
•Durability
•Will not quit/retire 3 times

MJ was a better FT shooter. That's it...

all fax.

passing - adv lebron
defense - adv lebron (lebron is much better suited for 90s defense than mj is today's no contact perimeter d. unless you're guarding lebron then it's a free for all)
rebounding - adv lebron
playmaking - adv lebron
scoring - adv lebron (higher fg, efg, ts percentages and higher points per shot. and of course the soon to be all time scoring leader)
shooting - lebron finishes better at the rim and he's a better 3pt shooter. mj is a better midrange (fts) shooter
dunking - lebron is easily the better in-game dunker
bball iq - lebron's is off the charts. no comparison
leadership - lebron is arguably the goat leader in american team sports history. mj bullies and fights teammates in practice
durability - both durable but lebron has played so many more mins he gets the edge

[TheMan]

:roll:

Sometimes all you can do is laugh...waste of time "debating" mouthbreathers so far gone :lol

[Johnny32]

all fax.

passing - adv lebron
defense - adv lebron (lebron is much better suited for 90s defense than mj is today's no contact perimeter d. unless you're guarding lebron then it's a free for all)
rebounding - adv lebron
playmaking - adv lebron
scoring - adv lebron (higher fg, efg, ts percentages and higher points per shot. and of course the soon to be all time scoring leader)
shooting - lebron finishes better at the rim and he's a better 3pt shooter. mj is a better midrange (fts) shooter
dunking - lebron is easily the better in-game dunker
bball iq - lebron's is off the charts. no comparison
leadership - lebron is arguably the goat leader in american team sports history. mj bullies and fights teammates in practice
durability - both durable but lebron has played so many more mins he gets the edge

truth hurts. lol @ the fat guy tapping out.

[TheMan]

What fat guy? 5'10" 170 lbs :wtf:

I don't debate retards, bye.

[Johnny32]

lol poor guy is still choking on my shit. catch your breath, fatboy.

[kawhileonard2]

Advanced stats are only part of it. Even when you look their playoff advanced stats Jordan is still superior over the span of their respective careers.

Jordan is also the more accomplished defensive player (more all-defensive teams, DPOY) and offensive player. He is also the more accomplished winner and recognized as the more valuable player (11x MVP/FMVP to Lebron's 8x).
And did it playing less seasons.

[Johnny32]

advanced nerd stats make me laugh but let's look at their (mj/lbj) top 3 playoff runs using some nerd stats.

vorp

1. 3.4 (lebron 2018)
2. 3.1 (lebron 2012)
3. 3.0 (lebron 2013)

per

1. 37.4 (lebron 2009)
2. 32.2 (lebron 2018)
3. 32.0 (jordone 1991)

win shares

1. 5.8 (lebron 2012)
2. 5.2 (lebron 2013)
3. 5.2 (lebron 2018)

offensive win shares

1. 4.2 (lebron 2012)
2. 4.2 (lebron 2018)
3. 3.7 (lebron 2013)

defensive win shares

1. 1.7 (jordone 1992)
2. 1.6 (lebron 2012)
3. 1.6 (lebron 2007)

ts%

1. 66.8 (lebron 2014)
2. 64.9 (lebron 2017)
3. 64.7 (lebron 2020)

hurrr, muh advanced nerd stats doe, durrr

[kawhileonard2]

LeGap > Mikey Mouse

On nearly all categories:

•Passing
•Defense
•Rebounding
•Playmaking
•Scoring
•Shooting
•Dunking
•Basketball IQ
•Leadership
•Durability
•Will not quit/retire 3 times

MJ was a better FT shooter. That's it...

Oh

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29187444/michael-jordan-better-lebron-james-every-way-says-poll-nba-fans

[kawhileonard2]

Need an answer on each thread below.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?489748-When-KD-and-Lebron-go-head-to-head
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=459570

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495113-Vassilis-Spanoulis-Giannis-Antetokounmpo-s-And-Luka-Doncic-s-Idol-Retired
https://www.espn.com/olympics/wbc2006/news/story?id=2568543

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495940-Lebron-with-Shaq-2nd-round-exit-Giannis-with-Middleton-a-Title

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495955-Giannis-just-blasted-those-who-join-super-teams-in-post-conference-interview

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?493982-Devin-Booker-Vs-Lebron-James-who-is-better-currently

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496095-Devin-Booker-put-up-47-his-playoff-career-high-on-Lebron

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496253-Lebron-won-2-bronze-medals-for-the-United-States-of-America-How

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496256-Lebron-with-Tim-Duncan-Bronze-Medal-in-Olympics-Vince-with-KG-Gold-Medal

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496255-Lebron-with-Carlos-Boozer-No-Playoffs-Deron-Williams-with-Carlos-Boozer-WCF

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496549-Lebron-stacking-the-deck-in-2022-because-he-is-afraid-of-Devin-Booker

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?492941-1-Title-in-11-Years-for-the-Franchise-that-you-originally-played-for


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496831-times-when-each-top-10-player-all-time-Lost-when-they-were-expected-to-win

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?486706-Rob-Parker-LeBron-is-the-FFOAT

Record against teams with an SRS of 5.0 or higher.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?497187-Record-against-teams-with-an-SRS-of-5-0-or-higher

Not 3, not 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 or Playoff Mode Activated or A Storm is Coming
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?494319-Not-3-not-4-5-6-7-8-or-Playoff-Mode-Activated-or-A-Storm-is-Coming/page2


Playoff Mode: ACTIVATED
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?473762-Playoff-Mode-ACTIVATED

Lowest Scoring Supporting Cast Overall Playoffs
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?463869-Lowest-Scoring-Supporting-Cast-Overall-Playoffs/page3


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?499837-Greatest-floor-raise-of-all-time/page2
Lebron played with Shaq who won league mvp and 3 finals mvp's and lost in round 2. Lebron played with Peak Duncan who had won 2 league mvp's and 3 finals mvp's and won bronze medal. Lebron played with Peak Wade who won finals mvp and got outplayed by Jason Terry. Lebron played with Derrick Rose who won mvp under age 30 which was the same as Kevin Durant who won mvp under 30 while both were on Golden State and Cleveland. Lebron played with mulitple PER leaders as well and now Russell Westbrook a league mvp winner and more triple doubles than Oscar Robertson. Yet despite all of that Lebron lost with all of them.


Jarrett Allen vs Gobert and Jarrett Allen vs Lebron
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?499786-Jarrett-Allen-vs-Gobert-and-Jarrett-Allen-vs-Lebron

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500431-Lakers-were-1-in-Preseason-Odds-in-2021-and-Suns-were-14
Was #1 in Preseason odds and lost to a 14th seed in odds

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2021_preseason_odds.html

And Devin Booker walked them down in the playoffs with Devin outplaying Lebron. :confusedshrug:


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500416-Why-did-Pelinka-surround-Lebron-with-a-bullshit-roster
He has peak Anthony Davis, the best player on the 2020 squad and the reason the Lakers did anything as the 2019 Lakers missed the playoffs and 2021 Lakers lost in round 1 when AD wasn't around. He has Prime Melo who won a scoring title and all time leader in scoring for the Olympics. He has Dwight Howard a 3x DPOY and a guy who beat Lebron without HCA. He has Westbrook who is the modern day Oscar Robertson and also won league mvp along with average a Triple Double 4 years in a row. He also has Rondo who is a hall of famer.

Why didn't he play it against Dwight Howard in 2009 when Dwight was dominating http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?459570-How-is-it-even-possible-to-lose-to-Dwight-Howard-in-a-series-with-HCA/page10? Or against Duncan or KG or Dirk? Why did he run away from KD a guy at his position?
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?489748-When-KD-and-Lebron-go-head-to-head

Why didn't he do **** against Booker in the playoffs as well?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496095-Devin-Booker-put-up-47-his-playoff-career-high-on-Lebron


Devin Booker broke Lebron
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500264-Devin-Booker-broke-Lebron&p=14500724


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?503966-3ball-why-can-LeBron-win-with-Irving-but-KD-can-t&p=14584482#post14584482

Lebron won bronze medal twice and lost with HCA 3x. Jordan only won gold medal and never lost with HCA. Prove me wrong!

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500440-Russell-Westbrook-leading-the-league-in-Triple-Doubles-Thus-far-in-2022-Season
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/triple-double-leaders-2021-2022-stats

Expected Championships Won and Titles Over Expected
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500379-Expected-Championships-Won-and-Titles-Over-Expected/page3&p=14503600


How did LeBron go 10-16 vs Kawhi? 7-12 vs Shaq? 17-23 vs Curry?
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500334-How-did-LeBron-go-10-16-vs-Kawhi-7-12-vs-Shaq-17-23-vs-Curry

Top 50 All-Time List - Shot Clock Era = #1
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?497028-Top-50-All-Time-List-Shot-Clock-Era-1&p=14426360&viewfull=1#post14426360


Difference between Lebron and Tmac?
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?494830-Difference-between-Lebron-and-Tmac
Both 0-2 with HCA against 50+ win teams until they joined forces with someone who won as the man. Also won bronze medals.

Tmac lost to Utah in 2007 while Lebron was losing to a career loser in Dwight Howard and also Carlos Arroyo in the Olympics with peak Tim Duncan on his squad despite playing more minutes than Hakeem even played on the 1996 Olympic team.



LeBron's message that makes the NBA shake: A storm is coming
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500734-LeBron-s-message-that-makes-the-NBA-shake-A-storm-is-coming

https://www.marca.com/en/more-sports/2021/04/09/6070b833ca47418e588b45e9.html


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?480740-Vasileios-Spanoulis-gt-gt-gt-Lebron-James
Outplayed Lebron in FIBA and caused America to get another bronze medal and then Greece got spanked in Gold medal final.:oldlol:

http://archive.fiba.com/pages/eng/fa/game/p/gid/A/grid/75/rid/5152/sid/3507/_/2006_FIBA_World_Championship/statistic.html


First Time Ever a team with 2 guys who won MVP missed the playoffs
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?503543-First-Time-Ever-a-team-with-2-guys-who-won-MVP-missed-the-playoffs


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?503981-Why-does-Lebron-have-2-bronze-medals-while-KD-only-has-gold-medals&p=14584371#post14584371

https://media0.giphy.com/media/l0ErLeqamV3UOARsA/giphy.gif

[Vino24]

Kawhit boy has been reduced to a copypasta account :oldlol:

[Axe]

Poor duncan21formvp :(

[RogueBorg]

Lebron sounds great. But how come he hasn't won an MVP or made 1st-Team All-Defense in his 30's?

And why is it of all the top 10 players he's the only one with losing record in the finals?

Where I come from we call that

https://media2.giphy.com/media/F0xycxJN5NM5q8NqlY/giphy.gif

[Johnny32]

Kawhit boy has been reduced to a copypasta account :oldlol:

lol it's the ugliest copy and paste of all time too. i'd probably destroy it link for link if i knew where to begin.

[bizil]

Bottom line is MJ was averaging 32.5-8dimes-8boards-2.9 ALONG with DPOY caliber defense 88-89. This is where MJ was taking his game to. Pip came of age soon after. So MJ DIDN'T have to be the dominant scorer AND floor game guy for the Bulls to win. Pip could be the dominant floor game guy. While MJ could save energy to dominate scoring WHILE also showing his world class floor game.

Bottom line is MJ was EVERY BIT the total package of player that Bron is. Bron is more of a pass first guy. And due to his size, he has more positional versatility. The BS about Bron being the great all around player while MJ is the assassin needs to stop. MJ being the ULTIMATE ASSASSIN while having the great floor game and freak athletic ability to go with it is why I would take him over Bron on a peak-prime level.

While I think Bron is a better all around player, MJ was THE BEST ALL AROUND perimeter player ever before Lebron!!! So MJ the better player peak-prime wise. And to me the still the GOAT. Bron holds the crown of the best all around player ever. I'll give him that. But in terms of playmaking, how many score first type of players are a BETTER PASSER than MJ??? Not many at all.

[Elosha]

Advanced stats are only part of it. Even when you look their playoff advanced stats Jordan is still superior over the span of their respective careers.

Jordan is also the more accomplished defensive player (more all-defensive teams, DPOY) and offensive player. He is also the more accomplished winner and recognized as the more valuable player (11x MVP/FMVP to Lebron's 8x).

This is all true. If LBJ is # 2, which is debatable, there is still a sizable gap between him and Jordan, both in talent, stats, accomplishments, iconic moments, and frankly in MJ being an unimpeachable GOAT, and LBJ having numerous black marks on his career.

I don't know how LeBron's last relatively feeble years of mediocrity haven't convinced the diehards, but I suppose zealot LBJ fans are too emotionally invested to have their eyes opened.

[Johnny32]

This is all true. If LBJ is # 2, which is debatable, there is still a sizable gap between him and Jordan, both in talent, stats, accomplishments, iconic moments, and frankly in MJ being an unimpeachable GOAT, and LBJ having numerous black marks on his career.

I don't know how LeBron's last relatively feeble years of mediocrity haven't convinced the diehards, but I suppose zealot LBJ fans are too emotionally invested to have their eyes opened.

translation: plz love, cherish, honor and remember my childhood hero as much as i do, plz.

[bizil]

This is all true. If LBJ is # 2, which is debatable, there is still a sizable gap between him and Jordan, both in talent, stats, accomplishments, iconic moments, and frankly in MJ being an unimpeachable GOAT, and LBJ having numerous black marks on his career.

I don't know how LeBron's last relatively feeble years of mediocrity haven't convinced the diehards, but I suppose zealot LBJ fans are too emotionally invested to have their eyes opened.

Good points. And ANOTHER way to look at is like this... MANY consider MJ the GOAT in ALL OF AMERICAN SPORTS!!!! NOT just basketball. When u look at it like that, Bron isn't there yet to be the GOAT in all American sports. I mean you still got Icons like Ali, Tiger, Ruth, and Brady for example. Is Bron GREATER than those icons yet???? So saying Bron the GOAT of basketball MEANS he's arguably the GOAT of ALL AMERICAN SPORTS! Bron ISN'T there yet.

[sdot_thadon]

This is all true. If LBJ is # 2, which is debatable, there is still a sizable gap between him and Jordan, both in talent, stats, accomplishments, iconic moments, and frankly in MJ being an unimpeachable GOAT, and LBJ having numerous black marks on his career.
I disagree, all things considered they are pretty close, just totally different from each other and more a matter of personal preference than anything else. Lebron has plenty of legendary moments of his own, again you can say it's a matter of taste but he has many. And aside from 2011 don't really see anything of consequence to bring up as a black mark, maybe someone more slanted in one direction can come up with as many hang nails as their hearts desire. As far as unimpeachable goes, where have you been the last decade?? I'd say his case has been violated at times.


I don't know how LeBron's last relatively feeble years of mediocrity haven't convinced the diehards, but I suppose zealot LBJ fans are too emotionally invested to have their eyes opened.
His last years include another chip at an age where we generally don't expect guys to keep winning, especially in the sense of leading teams still. That last bolded part is ironic because you can replace the letters LBJ with MJ and get an identical result lol. But I suppose zealot MJ fans are too emotionally invested to have their eyes opened.

[Spurs m8]

Lebron sounds great. But how come he hasn't won an MVP or made 1st-Team All-Defense in his 30's?

And why is it of all the top 10 players he's the only one with losing record in the finals?

Where I come from we call that

https://media2.giphy.com/media/F0xycxJN5NM5q8NqlY/giphy.gif

Amazing feat, with how much he stacked teams with prime talent, ran off when it was too hard and restacked with prime talent again

[theman93]

hurrr, muh advanced nerd stats doe, durrr

Now do their career playoff average

[TheMan]

translation: plz love, cherish, honor and remember my childhood hero as much as i do, plz.

Translation; I'm failing miserably in pro LeFraud propaganda, no one is buying my bullshit :(

[theman93]

I disagree, all things considered they are pretty close, just totally different from each other and more a matter of personal preference than anything else. Lebron has plenty of legendary moments of his own, again you can say it's a matter of taste but he has many. And aside from 2011 don't really see anything of consequence to bring up as a black mark, maybe someone more slanted in one direction can come up with as many hang nails as their hearts desire. As far as unimpeachable goes, where have you been the last decade?? I'd say his case has been violated at times.
Someone who isn't slanted in one direction can definitely view losing 6 Finals in total as a black mark, on top of the 2011 debacle. Activating "playoff mode" in 2019 only to go 3-12 the following 15 games and getting eliminated from playoff contention is certainly another one. Completely missing the play-in tournament last year also comes to mind.



His last years include another chip at an age where we generally don't expect guys to keep winning, especially in the sense of leading teams still. That last bolded part is ironic because you can replace the letters LBJ with MJ and get an identical result lol. But I suppose zealot MJ fans are too emotionally invested to have their eyes opened.
Well see that's the problem. It can't be both "Lebron has the greatest longevity of all time" and "well we aren't expecting him to keep winning at his age". If he's crowned with the greatest longevity, then you also need to be objective and recognize the failures that accompany him at his older age.

[Johnny32]

Now do their career playoff average

why? i already showed you who clearly peaked higher in the playoffs according to your beloved nerd stats.

[theman93]

why? i already showed you who clearly peaked higher in the playoffs according to your beloved nerd stats.

Because career average paints the whole picture. A playoff run is a snapshot. Lebron’s advanced stats in 09 are his best ever, but hardly anyone would argue 09 was his peak.

[Johnny32]

desperate excuses


vorp

1. 3.4 (lebron 2018)
2. 3.1 (lebron 2012)
3. 3.0 (lebron 2013)

per

1. 37.4 (lebron 2009)
2. 32.2 (lebron 2018)
3. 32.0 (jordone 1991)

win shares

1. 5.8 (lebron 2012)
2. 5.2 (lebron 2013)
3. 5.2 (lebron 2018)

offensive win shares

1. 4.2 (lebron 2012)
2. 4.2 (lebron 2018)
3. 3.7 (lebron 2013)

defensive win shares

1. 1.7 (jordone 1992)
2. 1.6 (lebron 2012)
3. 1.6 (lebron 2007)

ts%

1. 66.8 (lebron 2014)
2. 64.9 (lebron 2017)
3. 64.7 (lebron 2020)


i know this one hurts but suck it up, buttercup.

[sdot_thadon]

Someone who isn't slanted in one direction can definitely view losing 6 Finals in total as a black mark, on top of the 2011 debacle. Activating "playoff mode" in 2019 only to go 3-12 the following 15 games and getting eliminated from playoff contention is certainly another one. Completely missing the play-in tournament last year also comes to mind. losing 6 Finals to great competition is fine in my eyes, it means you were actually tested by worthy opposition. Especially when youve won 4. Especially when you're in 10 of them. I won't denigrate MJ's Finals opponents but the were clearly not as good as the guys Lebron saw in his appearances. In boxing that's called resume, and Lebron for the most part faced champions.



Well see that's the problem. It can't be both "Lebron has the greatest longevity of all time" and "well we aren't expecting him to keep winning at his age". If he's crowned with the greatest longevity, then you also need to be objective and recognize the failures that accompany him at his older age.And strangely he checked both boxes! He won in a late stage of his career season, a place where most guys aren't playing in the spring anymore. AND....he was expected to win like he's still in the peak of his prime. And this year you guys that waste all your time hating on him will again expect the more out of him as you expected from prime Mj. Meanwhile, he's at an even further stage of the last leg than Wizards Mj, which ironically......didn't count. Right?

[3ba11]

losing 6 Finals to great competition is fine in my eyes, it means you were actually tested by worthy opposition. Especially when youve won 4. Especially when you're in 10 of them. I won't denigrate MJ's Finals opponents but the were clearly not as good as the guys Lebron saw in his appearances. In boxing that's called resume, and Lebron for the most part faced champions.

And strangely he checked both boxes! He won in a late stage of his career season, a place where most guys aren't playing in the spring anymore. AND....he was expected to win like he's still in the peak of his prime. And this year you guys that waste all your time hating on him will again expect the more out of him as you expected from prime Mj. Meanwhile, he's at an even further stage of the last leg than Wizards Mj, which ironically......didn't count. Right?


Regular Season

Hornacek (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html).... 17.7 PER.. 2.9 bpm.. 0.153 ws/48.. 42.1 vorp on 33,964 min.. 15/3/5 on 58.2 ts
Klay (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html)............. 16.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.110 ws/48.. 14.4 vorp on 20,380 min.. 19/3/2 on 57.5 ts


Playoffs

Hornacek (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html).... 16.5 PER.. 3.1 bpm.. 0.145 ws/48.. 14.1 vorp on 4766 min.. 15/4/4 on 57.5 ts
Klay (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html)............. 14.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.091 ws/48.... 3.1 vorp on 4570 min.. 19/3/2 on 56.0 ts


Klay/Dray hadn't been all-stars yet heading into the 2015 season, while Malone/Stockton were perennial all-stars and Hornacek was a 1-time all-star that out-produced Klay across the board.

The Warriors were obviously newbies that could barely beat an injured Lebron team, so they have no chance against the 98' Jazz that swept Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers and demolished Duncan/Popovich/Robinson.

Again, the 90's West had insane parity and history shows that any winner of that conference was an organic juggernaut with YEARS OF WARS in that conference

Furthermore, Jordan always faced a talent deficit in the Finals because the 91' Lakers and 92' Blazers had better-ranked defenses and far more scoring options, while the 93' Suns and 96' Sonics had more all-stars and nearly the same ranked defenses.. The Jazz were the only team that didn't have more talent, but they had a 10-year organic brand that ragdolled Shaq and Duncan's stacked teams.

[HighFlyer23]

The biggest difference is in mentality

Jordan figured out how to win with the pieces that were given to him

Lebron learned how to win from Wade

MJ would try and destroy people … Lebron doesn’t have that kind of mentality … he is content with just winning

[sdot_thadon]

Regular Season

Hornacek (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html).... 17.7 PER.. 2.9 bpm.. 0.153 ws/48.. 42.1 vorp on 33,964 min.. 15/3/5 on 58.2 ts
Klay (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html)............. 16.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.110 ws/48.. 14.4 vorp on 20,380 min.. 19/3/2 on 57.5 ts


Playoffs

Hornacek (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html).... 16.5 PER.. 3.1 bpm.. 0.145 ws/48.. 14.1 vorp on 4766 min.. 15/4/4 on 57.5 ts
Klay (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html)............. 14.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.091 ws/48.... 3.1 vorp on 4570 min.. 19/3/2 on 56.0 ts


Klay/Dray hadn't been all-stars yet heading into the 2015 season, while Malone/Stockton were perennial all-stars and Hornacek was a 1-time all-star that out-produced Klay across the board.

The Warriors were obviously newbies that could barely beat an injured Lebron team, so they have no chance against the 98' Jazz that swept Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers and demolished Duncan/Popovich/Robinson.

Again, the 90's West had insane parity and history shows that any winner of that conference was an organic juggernaut with YEARS OF WARS in that conference

Furthermore, Jordan always faced a talent deficit in the Finals because the 91' Lakers and 92' Blazers had better-ranked defenses and far more scoring options, while the 93' Suns and 96' Sonics had more all-stars and nearly the same ranked defenses.. The Jazz were the only team that didn't have more talent, but they had a 10-year organic brand that ragdolled Shaq and Duncan's stacked teams.

And even though you posted all of that you won't take Jeff over Klay as a teammate with a gun to your head lol.

[theman93]

losing 6 Finals to great competition is fine in my eyes, it means you were actually tested by worthy opposition. Especially when youve won 4. Especially when you're in 10 of them. I won't denigrate MJ's Finals opponents but the were clearly not as good as the guys Lebron saw in his appearances. In boxing that's called resume, and Lebron for the most part faced champions.
Maybe it's fine in your eyes, but outside of folks who stan Lebron, 6 Finals losses is viewed as a black mark no matter how you slice it.

As far as being in the Finals, again, hardly anyone celebrates that besides Lebron stans. Nobody looks at Magic Johnson's resume and celebrates him being in 9 Finals. They celebrate him winning 5 Finals. Malone and Stockton aren't celebrated for being in 2 Finals, they get knocked for not winning either of them.

Jordan also faced the Lakers (champion) and the would-be champion Jazz....if not for himself. That's a null arguement.


And strangely he checked both boxes! He won in a late stage of his career season, a place where most guys aren't playing in the spring anymore. AND....he was expected to win like he's still in the peak of his prime. And this year you guys that waste all your time hating on him will again expect the more out of him as you expected from prime Mj. Meanwhile, he's at an even further stage of the last leg than Wizards Mj, which ironically......didn't count. Right?
If he checks both boxes, then you would have to admit that missing the playoffs in 2019 and play-in in 2022 are black marks. But you don't which shows inconsistency in your argument and bias. If he's expected to win even at the age he's at now, why aren't you holding him to atleast a standard of making the playoffs?

Every season "counts" but the difference is expectations. Nobody had expectations for Wizards MJ because he was 3 years removed from the league, 38 years old and part of a bad team which nobody expected him to carry. So nobody views it as a black mark.

[sdot_thadon]

Maybe it's fine in your eyes, but outside of folks who stan Lebron, 6 Finals losses is viewed as a black mark no matter how you slice it.

As far as being in the Finals, again, hardly anyone celebrates that besides Lebron stans. Nobody looks at Magic Johnson's resume and celebrates him being in 9 Finals. They celebrate him winning 5 Finals. Malone and Stockton aren't celebrated for being in 2 Finals, they get knocked for not winning either of them.

Jordan also faced the Lakers (champion) and the would-be champion Jazz....if not for himself. That's a null arguement.
Exactly! How many Finals losses was never a thing when you win a handful....until recently when it was a holey parachute for a certain religious group....
I mean in what world has being a 4 time world champion EVER been a bad thing? Never until this one guy. And things like that that tell the stakes in your eyes regardless of what your lips say. And I didn't say Mj didn't face champions, just Lebron faced more. Prove it wrong.


If he checks both boxes, then you would have to admit that missing the playoffs in 2019 and play-in in 2022 are black marks. But you don't which shows inconsistency in your argument and bias. If he's expected to win even at the age he's at now, why aren't you holding him to atleast a standard of making the playoffs?

Every season "counts" but the difference is expectations. Nobody had expectations for Wizards MJ because he was 3 years removed from the league, 38 years old and part of a bad team which nobody expected him to carry. So nobody views it as a black mark.
Perhaps I'm a fan that prefers to appreciate rather than hunt for "black marks" I enjoyed both guys very much. My whole participation in the on going conversations has been, use the same scale when you judge. Stop putting your thumb on the scale for Lebron and lifting the scale for Mike. Whatever criticisms I lobbed at Kobe once upon a time I eventually looked back on past greats with the same microscope. Fair is fair.

[theman93]

Exactly! How many Finals losses was never a thing when you win a handful....until recently when it was a holey parachute for a certain religious group....
I mean in what world has being a 4 time world champion EVER been a bad thing? Never until this one guy. And things like that that tell the stakes in your eyes regardless of what your lips say. And I didn't say Mj didn't face champions, just Lebron faced more. Prove it wrong.
It becomes a thing when you start picking apart resumes in the GOAT discussion.

Nobody is saying winning 4 rings is a bad thing. It's a great thing, but it's not as great as 6 rings. And 0 losses is better than 6 losses. Which way do you want to slice it?



Perhaps I'm a fan that prefers to appreciate rather than hunt for "black marks" I enjoyed both guys very much. My whole participation in the on going conversations has been, use the same scale when you judge. Stop putting your thumb on the scale for Lebron and lifting the scale for Mike. Whatever criticisms I lobbed at Kobe once upon a time I eventually looked back on past greats with the same microscope. Fair is fair.

The ironic thing here is you're the one who isn't using the same scale when you judge Lebron and his longevity. You'll admit he's still expected to win, but won't view it as a failure when he doesn't even make the playoffs or play-in.

[3ba11]

in what world has being a 4 time world champion EVER been a bad thing? .





It's a bad thing when an all-time great purposefully stacks the deck (not GM-controlled, aka not organic) to gain an advantage over his peers

Specifically, Lebron had a 6-year headstart in the colluding space that yielded preseason favorites from 11-16' and stole organic chips from 12' Durant, 13' Duncan, and 16' Curry - Lebron's veteran super-teams had clearly locked down the league, so people were happy that Durant got to hand-pick the preseason favorite in 17' after Lebron did it the previous 6.






And I didn't say Mj didn't face champions, just Lebron faced more. Prove it wrong.





Nick Wright on the 17' Warriors-Cavs:


https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-30-2022/nfNb5D.gif


Facing super-teams isn't a big deal if you have a super-team yourself - Lebron had a super-team and preseason favorite from 11-16' and no one else did until 2017.. So cry me a river about his alleged "comp"

Even in 17', Lebron was supposed to be better than Durant while Kyrie/Curry are similar on the Finals level(Kyrie actually destroyed Curry the previous year).

So the Warriors didn't have a big advantage and everyone knew this:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=AjQR259CrwQ&t=01m02s


But Durant ended up outplaying Lebron in those Finals and going off - if Lebron could've slowed him down and outplayed him, it would've been a different series and the Cavs' probably wear them down again like 2016.






And I didn't say Mj didn't face champions, just Lebron faced more. Prove it wrong.





Regular Season

Hornacek (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html).... 17.7 PER.. 2.9 bpm.. 0.153 ws/48.. 42.1 vorp on 33,964 min.. 15/3/5 on 58.2 ts
Klay (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html)............. 16.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.110 ws/48.. 14.4 vorp on 20,380 min.. 19/3/2 on 57.5 ts


Playoffs

Hornacek (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html).... 16.5 PER.. 3.1 bpm.. 0.145 ws/48.. 14.1 vorp on 4766 min.. 15/4/4 on 57.5 ts
Klay (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html)............. 14.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.091 ws/48.... 3.1 vorp on 4570 min.. 19/3/2 on 56.0 ts


Klay/Dray hadn't been all-stars yet heading into the 2015 season, while Malone/Stockton were perennial all-stars and Hornacek was a 1-time all-star that out-produced Klay across the board (see stats above).

The 15' Warriors were obviously newbies that could barely beat an injured Lebron team, so they have no chance against the 98' Jazz that swept Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers and demolished Duncan/Popovich/Robinson.

Again, the 90's West had insane parity and history shows that any winner of that conference was an organic juggernaut with YEARS OF WARS in that conference

Furthermore, Jordan always faced a talent deficit in the Finals because the 91' Lakers and 92' Blazers had better-ranked defenses and far more scoring options, while the 93' Suns and 96' Sonics had more all-stars and nearly the same ranked defenses.. The Jazz were the only team that didn't have more talent, but they had a 10-year organic brand that ragdolled Shaq and Duncan's stacked teams

[kawhileonard2]

Need an answer on each thread below.

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?489748-When-KD-and-Lebron-go-head-to-head
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?t=459570

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495113-Vassilis-Spanoulis-Giannis-Antetokounmpo-s-And-Luka-Doncic-s-Idol-Retired
https://www.espn.com/olympics/wbc2006/news/story?id=2568543

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495940-Lebron-with-Shaq-2nd-round-exit-Giannis-with-Middleton-a-Title

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?495955-Giannis-just-blasted-those-who-join-super-teams-in-post-conference-interview

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?493982-Devin-Booker-Vs-Lebron-James-who-is-better-currently

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496095-Devin-Booker-put-up-47-his-playoff-career-high-on-Lebron

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496253-Lebron-won-2-bronze-medals-for-the-United-States-of-America-How

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496256-Lebron-with-Tim-Duncan-Bronze-Medal-in-Olympics-Vince-with-KG-Gold-Medal

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496255-Lebron-with-Carlos-Boozer-No-Playoffs-Deron-Williams-with-Carlos-Boozer-WCF

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496549-Lebron-stacking-the-deck-in-2022-because-he-is-afraid-of-Devin-Booker

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?492941-1-Title-in-11-Years-for-the-Franchise-that-you-originally-played-for


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496831-times-when-each-top-10-player-all-time-Lost-when-they-were-expected-to-win

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?486706-Rob-Parker-LeBron-is-the-FFOAT

Record against teams with an SRS of 5.0 or higher.
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?497187-Record-against-teams-with-an-SRS-of-5-0-or-higher

Not 3, not 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 or Playoff Mode Activated or A Storm is Coming
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?494319-Not-3-not-4-5-6-7-8-or-Playoff-Mode-Activated-or-A-Storm-is-Coming/page2


Playoff Mode: ACTIVATED
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?473762-Playoff-Mode-ACTIVATED

Lowest Scoring Supporting Cast Overall Playoffs
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?463869-Lowest-Scoring-Supporting-Cast-Overall-Playoffs/page3


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?499837-Greatest-floor-raise-of-all-time/page2
Lebron played with Shaq who won league mvp and 3 finals mvp's and lost in round 2. Lebron played with Peak Duncan who had won 2 league mvp's and 3 finals mvp's and won bronze medal. Lebron played with Peak Wade who won finals mvp and got outplayed by Jason Terry. Lebron played with Derrick Rose who won mvp under age 30 which was the same as Kevin Durant who won mvp under 30 while both were on Golden State and Cleveland. Lebron played with mulitple PER leaders as well and now Russell Westbrook a league mvp winner and more triple doubles than Oscar Robertson. Yet despite all of that Lebron lost with all of them.


Jarrett Allen vs Gobert and Jarrett Allen vs Lebron
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?499786-Jarrett-Allen-vs-Gobert-and-Jarrett-Allen-vs-Lebron

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500431-Lakers-were-1-in-Preseason-Odds-in-2021-and-Suns-were-14
Was #1 in Preseason odds and lost to a 14th seed in odds

https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2021_preseason_odds.html

And Devin Booker walked them down in the playoffs with Devin outplaying Lebron. :confusedshrug:


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500416-Why-did-Pelinka-surround-Lebron-with-a-bullshit-roster
He has peak Anthony Davis, the best player on the 2020 squad and the reason the Lakers did anything as the 2019 Lakers missed the playoffs and 2021 Lakers lost in round 1 when AD wasn't around. He has Prime Melo who won a scoring title and all time leader in scoring for the Olympics. He has Dwight Howard a 3x DPOY and a guy who beat Lebron without HCA. He has Westbrook who is the modern day Oscar Robertson and also won league mvp along with average a Triple Double 4 years in a row. He also has Rondo who is a hall of famer.

Why didn't he play it against Dwight Howard in 2009 when Dwight was dominating http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?459570-How-is-it-even-possible-to-lose-to-Dwight-Howard-in-a-series-with-HCA/page10? Or against Duncan or KG or Dirk? Why did he run away from KD a guy at his position?
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?489748-When-KD-and-Lebron-go-head-to-head

Why didn't he do **** against Booker in the playoffs as well?

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?496095-Devin-Booker-put-up-47-his-playoff-career-high-on-Lebron


Devin Booker broke Lebron
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500264-Devin-Booker-broke-Lebron&p=14500724


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?503966-3ball-why-can-LeBron-win-with-Irving-but-KD-can-t&p=14584482#post14584482

Lebron won bronze medal twice and lost with HCA 3x. Jordan only won gold medal and never lost with HCA. Prove me wrong!

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500440-Russell-Westbrook-leading-the-league-in-Triple-Doubles-Thus-far-in-2022-Season
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/triple-double-leaders-2021-2022-stats

Expected Championships Won and Titles Over Expected
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500379-Expected-Championships-Won-and-Titles-Over-Expected/page3&p=14503600


How did LeBron go 10-16 vs Kawhi? 7-12 vs Shaq? 17-23 vs Curry?
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500334-How-did-LeBron-go-10-16-vs-Kawhi-7-12-vs-Shaq-17-23-vs-Curry

Top 50 All-Time List - Shot Clock Era = #1
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?497028-Top-50-All-Time-List-Shot-Clock-Era-1&p=14426360&viewfull=1#post14426360


Difference between Lebron and Tmac?
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?494830-Difference-between-Lebron-and-Tmac
Both 0-2 with HCA against 50+ win teams until they joined forces with someone who won as the man. Also won bronze medals.

Tmac lost to Utah in 2007 while Lebron was losing to a career loser in Dwight Howard and also Carlos Arroyo in the Olympics with peak Tim Duncan on his squad despite playing more minutes than Hakeem even played on the 1996 Olympic team.



LeBron's message that makes the NBA shake: A storm is coming
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?500734-LeBron-s-message-that-makes-the-NBA-shake-A-storm-is-coming

https://www.marca.com/en/more-sports/2021/04/09/6070b833ca47418e588b45e9.html


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?480740-Vasileios-Spanoulis-gt-gt-gt-Lebron-James
Outplayed Lebron in FIBA and caused America to get another bronze medal and then Greece got spanked in Gold medal final.:oldlol:

http://archive.fiba.com/pages/eng/fa/game/p/gid/A/grid/75/rid/5152/sid/3507/_/2006_FIBA_World_Championship/statistic.html


First Time Ever a team with 2 guys who won MVP missed the playoffs
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?503543-First-Time-Ever-a-team-with-2-guys-who-won-MVP-missed-the-playoffs


http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?503981-Why-does-Lebron-have-2-bronze-medals-while-KD-only-has-gold-medals&p=14584371#post14584371

https://media0.giphy.com/media/l0ErLeqamV3UOARsA/giphy.gif

Guys!

[3ba11]

And even though you posted all of that you won't take Jeff over Klay as a teammate with a gun to your head lol.


Hornacek's stats were superior across the board despite not playing in today's 3-point era where his volume would triple..

Hornacek's peak in the low volume era was 20 ppg and 6 apg, so he was a far superior playmaker and craftier scorer (more FTA) - these numbers would be much higher today

There's a reason that Hornacek had far superior PER, BPM, VORP, and WS/48 in the regular season and playoffs - it's because he's a lot better

This purely stats argument is fine because Klay and Hornacek aren't 1st options that dictate brand of ball




And even though you posted all of that you won't take Jeff over Klay as a teammate with a gun to your head lol.


Klay/Dray hadn't been all-stars yet heading into the 2015 season

Otoh, Hornacek was a 1-time all-star that out-produced Klay across the board and Stockton/Malone were perennial all-stars.

The 15' Warriors were clearly newbies that could barely beat an injured Lebron team, so they have no chance against the 98' Jazz that swept Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers and demolished Duncan/Popovich/Robinson.

Again, the 90's West had insane parity and history shows that any winner of that conference was an organic juggernaut with YEARS OF WARS in that conference




And even though you posted all of that you won't take Jeff over Klay as a teammate with a gun to your head lol.


Jordan always faced a talent deficit in the Finals because the 91' Lakers and 92' Blazers had better-ranked defenses and far more scoring options, while the 93' Suns and 96' Sonics had more all-stars and nearly the same ranked defenses.. The Jazz were the only team that didn't have more talent, but they had a 10-year organic brand that ragdolled Shaq and Duncan's stacked teams

[John8204]

Technically and realistically Jordan is the better player. He has the greater BPM, OBPM, DBPM, WS/48, PER, VORP/season, and a much lower turnover% on greater usage. He's also better on the defensive side of the ball as shown by his awards/accomplishments and is the better scorer also as shown by his awards/accomplishments. And this doesn't even account for winning.

If you ignore the fact he retired three times which skews all of his stats...can't really take stats with a guy who juiced his numbers like that.

[sdot_thadon]

Hornacek's stats were superior across the board despite not playing in today's 3-point era where his volume would triple..

Hornacek's peak in the low volume era was 20 ppg and 6 apg, so he was a far superior playmaker and craftier scorer (more FTA) - these numbers would be much higher today

There's a reason that Hornacek had far superior PER, BPM, VORP, and WS/48 in the regular season and playoffs - it's because he's a lot better

This purely stats argument is fine because Klay and Hornacek aren't 1st options that dictate brand of ball






Klay/Dray hadn't been all-stars yet heading into the 2015 season

Otoh, Hornacek was a 1-time all-star that out-produced Klay across the board and Stockton/Malone were perennial all-stars.

The 15' Warriors were clearly newbies that could barely beat an injured Lebron team, so they have no chance against the 98' Jazz that swept Shaq's 4 all-star Lakers and demolished Duncan/Popovich/Robinson.

Again, the 90's West had insane parity and history shows that any winner of that conference was an organic juggernaut with YEARS OF WARS in that conference






Jordan always faced a talent deficit in the Finals because the 91' Lakers and 92' Blazers had better-ranked defenses and far more scoring options, while the 93' Suns and 96' Sonics had more all-stars and nearly the same ranked defenses.. The Jazz were the only team that didn't have more talent, but they had a 10-year organic brand that ragdolled Shaq and Duncan's stacked teams

And you posted all that in addition, and still wouldn't take Hornacek. You'll give a million posts to stupidity, but not your life lol.

[sdot_thadon]

It becomes a thing when you start picking apart resumes in the GOAT discussion.

Nobody is saying winning 4 rings is a bad thing. It's a great thing, but it's not as great as 6 rings. And 0 losses is better than 6 losses. Which way do you want to slice it?

Translation it's only a thing when Mj needs rescue. Because 11 rings is nearly doubling 6. But we'll never hear that because you guys assume Mj is better than Russell without even seeing him.



The ironic thing here is you're the one who isn't using the same scale when you judge Lebron and his longevity. You'll admit he's still expected to win, but won't view it as a failure when he doesn't even make the playoffs or play-in.
I'm not using any scale. I'm just taking it for what it is. He's still lingering near mvp level after 19 seasons, it's something that's never been done in the 75 years the league has existed. Pretty substantial shit here. No player before him has been expected to do much of anything beyond maybe 14 or 15 seasons, in MJ's case he received his pass earlier than that apparently. So why would not being able to accomplish something no one has ever done be seen as some failure? Did Mj make the playoffs with the Wiz? What about Kobes last few seasons? What sense does that even make?

[Johnny32]

It becomes a thing when you start picking apart resumes in the GOAT discussion.

Nobody is saying winning 4 rings is a bad thing. It's a great thing, but it's not as great as 6 rings. And 0 losses is better than 6 losses. Which way do you want to slice it?




The ironic thing here is you're the one who isn't using the same scale when you judge Lebron and his longevity. You'll admit he's still expected to win, but won't view it as a failure when he doesn't even make the playoffs or play-in.

lol hurrr 0 losses durrr. you're such a simple lil twit aren't ya.

[Johnny32]

tardboy just confirmed he believes...

losing in the 1st rd > winning in the 1st rd, winning in the 2nd rd, winning in the conference finals, then losing in the finals.

you can't debate basketball with window licking tards like this. just troll the idiots.

[theman93]

If you ignore the fact he retired three times which skews all of his stats...can't really take stats with a guy who juiced his numbers like that.

Yeah his stats are so juiced that each time he came back his stats were significantly worse...can’t take the resident Jordan hater with his 4 different alts seriously. :roll:

[theman93]

Translation it's only a thing when Mj needs rescue. Because 11 rings is nearly doubling 6. But we'll never hear that because you guys assume Mj is better than Russell without even seeing him.
No you’re just projecting, again lol. If we are comparing the all-time greats their resumes should be examined and judged. If you want to look at their resumes with rose colored glasses, that’s fine. But that’s not the position of most.

As for the ring argument, I’ve already stated more goes in to the discussion than just rings. But you like to project arguments on to people and aren’t paying attention.


I'm not using any scale. I'm just taking it for what it is. He's still lingering near mvp level after 19 seasons, it's something that's never been done in the 75 years the league has existed. Pretty substantial shit here. No player before him has been expected to do much of anything beyond maybe 14 or 15 seasons, in MJ's case he received his pass earlier than that apparently. So why would not being able to accomplish something no one has ever done be seen as some failure? Did Mj make the playoffs with the Wiz? What about Kobes last few seasons? What sense does that even make?
He’s an MVP caliber player and it’s not a failure he can’t get to the playoffs or play-in? I mean yeah that makes sense if you’re staning Lebron, but it doesn’t if you’re being objective.

MJ and Kobe failing to make the playoffs at their advanced age isn’t viewed as a failure because of expectations, which I’ve already gone over. If they were still viewed as MVP-caliber then it would be. Simple as.

[outofstomach]

I disagree, all things considered they are pretty close, just totally different from each other and more a matter of personal preference than anything else. Lebron has plenty of legendary moments of his own, again you can say it's a matter of taste but he has many. And aside from 2011 don't really see anything of consequence to bring up as a black mark, maybe someone more slanted in one direction can come up with as many hang nails as their hearts desire. As far as unimpeachable goes, where have you been the last decade?? I'd say his case has been violated at times.


His last years include another chip at an age where we generally don't expect guys to keep winning, especially in the sense of leading teams still. That last bolded part is ironic because you can replace the letters LBJ with MJ and get an identical result lol. But I suppose zealot MJ fans are too emotionally invested to have their eyes opened.
he won a chip in a glorified scrimmage season :lol

[FilmyCogTurner]

I haven't read the thread yet but one thing Lebron fans always seem to gloss over when talking about play making is how player X impacts the game without the ball as well.

Play making isn't always quarterbacking the ball making the right plays it's also relinquishing control and choosing spots on the floor that are advantageous to your teammates so they can flourish and contribute to the game in a meaningful way.

Say we do concede that Bron is the better on ball play maker (although I do feel MJ has a solid argument) the difference off ball between the two is enormous and when factoring in these two major components to play making it's Jordan by a mile.

[Johnny32]

I haven't read the thread yet but one thing Lebron fans always seem to gloss over when talking about play making is how player X impacts the game without the ball as well.

Play making isn't always quarterbacking the ball making the right plays it's also relinquishing control and choosing spots on the floor that are advantageous to your teammates so they can flourish and contribute to the game in a meaningful way.

Say we do concede that Bron is the better on ball play maker (although I do feel MJ has a solid argument) the difference off ball between the two is enormous and when factoring in these two major components to play making it's Jordan by a mile.

LeROFL

[RogueBorg]

tardboy just confirmed he believes...

losing in the 1st rd > winning in the 1st rd, winning in the 2nd rd, winning in the conference finals, then losing in the finals.



The goal is to win the championship, not miss the play-in, not miss the playoffs, not lose in the first round, not lose in the Finals, but to win it all.

6 chips in 15 years > 4 chips in 19 years, always, no matter how you slice it.

And if you want to compare Mr. 15 ppg Bill Russell's all around game to Jordan's you'll get destroyed you window licking tard. It's why Russell is not the GOAT.

[sdot_thadon]

No you’re just projecting, again lol. If we are comparing the all-time greats their resumes should be examined and judged. If you want to look at their resumes with rose colored glasses, that’s fine. But that’s not the position of most.

As for the ring argument, I’ve already stated more goes in to the discussion than just rings. But you like to project arguments on to people and aren’t paying attention.
Why would it be necessary with forum regulars, bro everyone here projects their arguments in literally every Lebron/Mj thread here. You literally just a few posts above me say 6 Is better than 4. And I respond again 11 is nearly doubling 6. I'm not asking anyone else to use rose colored glasses. I'm asking you to throw them hoes away. Use the same microscope on every case or it's useless.


He’s an MVP caliber player and it’s not a failure he can’t get to the playoffs or play-in? I mean yeah that makes sense if you’re staning Lebron, but it doesn’t if you’re being objective.

MJ and Kobe failing to make the playoffs at their advanced age isn’t viewed as a failure because of expectations, which I’ve already gone over. If they were still viewed as MVP-caliber then it would be. Simple as. And this is a long ass ring around the rosey to avoid giving weight to longevity but the more you do the more it exposes why you should.

Tell me: what player has ever had the expectations of an mvp caliber player at either age 38 or their 19th season? The NBA has existed for 75 years and has had thousands of players.....that's some distinguished ground bro, so again explain to me why that shouldn't matter significantly in the goat debate.

[sdot_thadon]

he won a chip in a glorified scrimmage season :lol

Whatever you call it. I saw a complete playoffs with rings and trophies awarded. The 1st ever on neutral ground. It's a very unique accomplishment.

[sdot_thadon]

I haven't read the thread yet but one thing Lebron fans always seem to gloss over when talking about play making is how player X impacts the game without the ball as well.

Play making isn't always quarterbacking the ball making the right plays it's also relinquishing control and choosing spots on the floor that are advantageous to your teammates so they can flourish and contribute to the game in a meaningful way.

Say we do concede that Bron is the better on ball play maker (although I do feel MJ has a solid argument) the difference off ball between the two is enormous and when factoring in these two major components to play making it's Jordan by a mile.

Um I'm pretty sure relinquished control is a direct opposite of playmaking lol. I've never heard this definition you're giving it here. These things already have their own categories.

[3ba11]

And you posted all that in addition, and still wouldn't take Hornacek. You'll give a million posts to stupidity, but not your life lol.


I'm pretty sure that I made it clear I would take Hornacek based on superior pure scoring and playmaking - he was on killer-teams in Phoenix including an upset win over Magic's 1 seeded Lakers in 1990.. Then he was on more winning teams in Utah.. So he wasn't a system player that can't playmake or get to the line like Klay, who simply luckboxed landing on a dynasty system

[3ba11]

Um I'm pretty sure relinquished control is a direct opposite of playmaking lol. I've never heard this definition you're giving it here. These things already have their own categories.


Lebron certainly doesn't create assists for teammates by being an assist target - he has the lowest assisted rate of any frontcourt player.

Since he turns a normally high-assisted position (F) into a low-assisted one (PG), he lowers the assist capacity of the team, hence low assist teams

[outofstomach]

Whatever you call it. I saw a complete playoffs with rings and trophies awarded. The 1st ever on neutral ground. It's a very unique accomplishment.
it had minimal pressure, no travel, players using drugs indiscriminately, and a wealth of traditionally scrubby ass players going off, it was an outlier season by every stretch and form of the imagination :lol

draymond even mentioned during the finals that the fans and heckling got into his head and affected his play, this clearly gives some justification as to why that 2020s ring is seen as weaker in comparison to other rings that were gotten, but of course since this is lebron we’ll count it because he needs everything he can get :lol

what an absolute joke

[FilmyCogTurner]

Um I'm pretty sure relinquished control is a direct opposite of playmaking lol. I've never heard this definition you're giving it here. These things already have their own categories.

What are these categories? I would like to know more. As the best player/leader of the team you are in control if you choose not to have the ball. Even no control is essentially control. How do you not see this? Have you ever played basketball?

[3ba11]

What are these categories? I would like to know more. As the best player/leader of the team you are in control if you choose not to have the ball. Even no control is essentially control. How do you not see this? Have you ever played basketball?


Jordan averaged more assists than Lebron for the first 9 years of their playoff careers (85-93' vs 06-14'), until Curry's pace and space era made offense easier for everyone.

The easier era allowed Lebron to eek out a 1.5 APG advantage overall, but it required being the all-time turnover kingpin...

So Jordan was a far superior passer on many levels.. He was a 30/10/10 point guard in 89', which was 30 years before Westbrook and Luka made it standard - so he was an all-time ball-dominator if needed, while also being the only player in history to average 10 apg in a series without starting at PG or bringing the ball up (91' Finals).

[sdot_thadon]

it had minimal pressure, no travel, players using drugs indiscriminately, and a wealth of traditionally scrubby ass players going off, it was an outlier season by every stretch and form of the imagination :lol

draymond even mentioned during the finals that the fans and heckling got into his head and affected his play, this clearly gives some justification as to why that 2020s ring is seen as weaker in comparison to other rings that were gotten, but of course since this is lebron we’ll count it because he needs everything he can get :lol

what an absolute joke

I dunno there was alot going on at that time, much too serious to discount. I understand crowd pressure is a thing, but in the bubble all the conditions stated were equal for all teams present. It was basically the only level playing field championship we've seen or will ever see. Cool shit. Also the players were basically on lockdown like the rest of the country, some away from their families with the fear and uncertainty that period brought us all. At the same time the country was on edge due to racial tension stemming from the police incidents that happened around that time. The nba is a predominantly black league. So yeah the normal playoff pressures weren't all present, but were replaced with real life pressure that is more important than some entitled bitches yelling slurs from the stands....

[theman93]

Why would it be necessary with forum regulars, bro everyone here projects their arguments in literally every Lebron/Mj thread here. You literally just a few posts above me say 6 Is better than 4. And I respond again 11 is nearly doubling 6. I'm not asking anyone else to use rose colored glasses. I'm asking you to throw them hoes away. Use the same microscope on every case or it's useless.

Except you won't even throw them away yourself. You said you're a fan that prefers to appreciate rather than hunt for "black marks". You can't do that when comparing resumes. You look for successes, accomplishments and failures in it's context. That's the microscope.


And this is a long ass ring around the rosey to avoid giving weight to longevity but the more you do the more it exposes why you should.

Lol how? The fact here is that I'm the one giving weight to his longevity, not you. I'm the one holding him to the standard of atleast making the playoffs given that he's still an MVP caliber player at his age, not you. Why shouldn't an MVP caliber player atleast be expected to make the play-in tournament?


Tell me: what player has ever had the expectations of an mvp caliber player at either age 38 or their 19th season? The NBA has existed for 75 years and has had thousands of players.....that's some distinguished ground bro, so again explain to me why that shouldn't matter significantly in the goat debate.

I never said it didn't matter. This is you projecting. His longevity is all-time great and the league hasn't seen a player go this long at this level before.

Now given that he's still an MVP caliber player at his age because of his all-time longevity, why won't you hold him to the standard of an MVP caliber player? Do you not believe MVP caliber players should atleast be able to get to the playoffs? What about atleast the play-in tournament? If you don't that's weak af lmao.

[sdot_thadon]

What are these categories? I would like to know more. As the best player/leader of the team you are in control if you choose not to have the ball. Even no control is essentially control. How do you not see this? Have you ever played basketball?
You said how they impact off the ball, that's actually called " off-ball play" it's a thing, since like, forever. And if someone relinquishes control of the offense, it's because the aren't the playmaker. That's not rocket science. The best player isn't always the playmaker, sometimes they are. Or sometimes the best player does spot duty as the playmaker. That players time off the ball isn't called playmaking though. The playmaker is the one getting them the ball lol.

[8Ball]

There is a lot more than just playmaking but that is the massive skill gap between the LeBron and Jordan and why I consider Bron the better player.


LeBron is just consistently a higher IQ player.

[sdot_thadon]

Except you won't even throw them away yourself. You said you're a fan that prefers to appreciate rather than hunt for "black marks". You can't do that when comparing resumes. You look for successes, accomplishments and failures in it's context. That's the microscope.
Untrue, previous years before Mj was our goat the "black marks" were no.2 pencil rather than the smear campaigns they have become. It's sad. I've seen so many times here "x disqualifies ______ from the goat debate" why are we hunting so hard to eliminate the discussion? It's never worked that way and it never will as long as people have opinions at their disposal. Also, why are we in such denial whenever Mj gets criticism in these debates when according you that's what it's about? The whole 1-9 gag whether most realize it was just a response troll for the people that used to harp on Lebron's finals record before he became a winner. It's silly, but the purpose is for you to bristle at it and realize it's unimportant once a guy wins enough. Most of Mj fans are still in summer school cause they haven't caught on yet and still get instantly triggered by it.


Lol how? The fact here is that I'm the one giving weight to his longevity, not you. I'm the one holding him to the standard of atleast making the playoffs given that he's still an MVP caliber player at his age, not you. Why shouldn't an MVP caliber player atleast be expected to make the play-in tournament?
Straight wolf ticket. You're giving weight to it by backhanding it? Lol rather than noticing what's amazing and unprecedented about it, you're finding the downplay button.


I never said it didn't matter. This is you projecting. His longevity is all-time great and the league hasn't seen a player go this long at this level before.

Now given that he's still an MVP caliber player at his age because of his all-time longevity, why won't you hold him to the standard of an MVP caliber player? Do you not believe MVP caliber players should atleast be able to get to the playoffs? What about atleast the play-in tournament? If you don't that's weak af lmao.Yeah, if he played more than just 56 games, and AD played more than 40. Are we even being realistic?

[3ba11]

.
Lebron needed the most passing help confirmed



Career APG

Westbrook..... 8.6
Rondo............ 8.0
Kyrie.............. 5.7
Wade............. 5.4
Jordan........... 5.3
Pippen........... 5.2

[FilmyCogTurner]

You said how they impact off the ball, that's actually called " off-ball play" it's a thing, since like, forever. And if someone relinquishes control of the offense, it's because the aren't the playmaker. That's not rocket science. The best player isn't always the playmaker, sometimes they are. Or sometimes the best player does spot duty as the playmaker. That players time off the ball isn't called playmaking though. The playmaker is the one getting them the ball lol.

You're not telling me anything new and I think you look at the game in a very myopic way.

To say the teams biggest threat playing off ball isn't play making I have no idea what sport you're watching. Steph/Reggie running off ball and not catching a single pass is play making whether you like it or not.

[3ba11]

Lebron doesn't have any series where he attempts more than 25 shots per game, except the 15' Finals where he couldn't hit the broadside of a barn..

He literally isn't capable of carrying the massive burdens that MJ was.

At Jordan-level burdens, Lebron lacks sufficient brand of ball to beat Finals teams (too ball-dominant and inefficient), so he needs all-time scorers and elite 1st options at sidekick to nearly match his Finals scoring..

Otoh, off-ball experts like Curry or MJ can carry the scoring load with sufficient brand to beat Finals teams (efficient and not ball-dominant), so they can win with secondary scorers at sidekick like Wiggins or Pippen

Ultimately, Lebron lacks sufficient jumpshooting skill and brand of ball to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load in Finals), so he needs more help.

[theman93]

Untrue, previous years before Mj was our goat the "black marks" were no.2 pencil rather than the smear campaigns they have become. It's sad. I've seen so many times here "x disqualifies ______ from the goat debate" why are we hunting so hard to eliminate the discussion? It's never worked that way and it never will as long as people have opinions at their disposal. Also, why are we in such denial whenever Mj gets criticism in these debates when according you that's what it's about? The whole 1-9 gag whether most realize it was just a response troll for the people that used to harp on Lebron's finals record before he became a winner. It's silly, but the purpose is for you to bristle at it and realize it's unimportant once a guy wins enough. Most of Mj fans are still in summer school cause they haven't caught on yet and still get instantly triggered by it.
I'm not the one trying to eliminate the discussion. I'm having it with you right now. I also am not in denial when MJ receives criticism. For example I believe he's rightfully criticized for turning the ball over against Orlando in game 1 and losing the series overall.

Quit being a child and creating these strawmans. If you don't know my position just ask.



Straight wolf ticket. You're giving weight to it by backhanding it? Lol rather than noticing what's amazing and unprecedented about it, you're finding the downplay button.

A standard is a wolf ticket? Lmao ok. It was universally expected for Lebron to make the playoffs even at his age which makes it a fair standard to hold him to. Anything else is revisionist history.


Yeah, if he played more than just 56 games, and AD played more than 40. Are we even being realistic?
Why is it unrealistic to expect the second greatest player of all-time, with the greatest longevity of all-time, who is still playing at an MVP-level, to beat out the garbage 34-48 Spurs for a spot in the play-in tournament? If the bar is seriously that low how much should we even value his longevity then?

[sdot_thadon]

You're not telling me anything new and I think you look at the game in a very myopic way.

To say the teams biggest threat playing off ball isn't play making I have no idea what sport you're watching. Steph/Reggie running off ball and not catching a single pass is play making whether you like it or not.

It's not. We don't get to create new tenets whenever it suits an argument. That's silly.

[sdot_thadon]

I'm not the one trying to eliminate the discussion. I'm having it with you right now. I also am not in denial when MJ receives criticism. For example I believe he's rightfully criticized for turning the ball over against Orlando in game 1 and losing the series overall.

Quit being a child and creating these strawmans. If you don't know my position just ask.
Fair enough, but I'll say this if you truly hold Mj to the same standards of criticism, you'd be able to find more wrong with that. And maybe alot of my post is generalizations because I see the same stuff over and over and I felt the same at one point years ago. But it's a practically a cardinal rule, Mj fans don't criticize Mj or acknowledge any perceived short coming. Hell when I was a young man and I created Mj on a basketball game his ratings were almost all high 90s, for everything lol. That's the way we revere him and it's wrong.




A standard is a wolf ticket? Lmao ok. It was universally expected for Lebron to make the playoffs even at his age which makes it a fair standard to hold him to. Anything else is revisionist history.
Yes, because he's held to a standard that only he ever has been, yet at the same time for some here it's laughable to consider him goat. That make any sense to you?



Why is it unrealistic to expect the second greatest player of all-time, with the greatest longevity of all-time, who is still playing at an MVP-level, to beat out the garbage 34-48 Spurs for a spot in the play-in tournament? If the bar is seriously that low how much should we even value his longevity then?
I can accept that, but again I'll look at the circumstance and the injury problems from the season and say OK. It was a disaster of a year. Perhaps given actually floor time to gel maybe they would have. I felt like the team never figured out who they were so I didn't have high expectations mid way through the season and they lower as it went on. I've seen every Lebron team and that one wasn't winning shit lol. And lastly something we always neglect is there is a ton of other factors that make these appearances happen, these finals trips and especially wins. One guy can do so much either way, win or lose. It's the reason rings are a bit lower on my scale than the individual greatness.

[3ba11]

:facepalm:

[3ba11]

if you truly hold Mj to the same standards of criticism





Here's the standards that we hold Jordan and all players to:


* Jordan never wet the bed in any series like Lebron in the 07' Finals, 08' Semis, 11' Finals, or 21' First Round (or the 10' Semis where Lebron averaged 21 on 34% to lose 2-1 lead as the favorite).

* Jordan was the best player in every series, while Lebron was outplayed in the 07' Finals, 08' Semis, 10' Semis, 11' Finals, 20' WCF (by a teammate), 21' First Round, and more.

* Jordan never lost as the preseason favorite like Lebron in 11', 14', or 21'

* Jordan never lost a series as the favorite like Lebron did in 09' ECF, 10' Semis and 11' Finals

* Jordan never lost with good teams (1 or 2 seed)

* Jordan never lost in the Finals

* Jordan lost the least with an all-star teammate (only the migraine and baseball years), while Lebron lost a ton with either 1 all-star teammate (05', 09', 21') or 2 all-star teammates (11', 14', 17').

* Lebron didn't have statistical carry-jobs in every series like Jordan did because Lebron had teammates lead in scoring for entire playoff runs (11', 20') and a dozen different series - Kyrie led a bunch and nearly matched Lebron's scoring for the 16' run.

* Lebron never defeated maximum defensive attention (never carried scoring load in Finals) and always needed all-time scorers and elite 1st options to nearly match his Finals scoring (never won with secondary producer like Klay, Wiggins, or Pippen).

* Jordan didn't lose any series as 1st option due to him shooting under 40%, while Lebron has 2 (07' and 25' Finals)

[Axe]

Here's the standards that we hold Jordan and all players to:


* Jordan never wet the bed in any series like Lebron in the 07' Finals, 08' Semis, 11' Finals, or 21' First Round (or the 10' Semis where Lebron averaged 21 on 34% to lose 2-1 lead as the favorite).

* Jordan was the best player in every series, while Lebron was outplayed in the 07' Finals, 08' Semis, 10' Semis, 11' Finals, 20' WCF (by a teammate), 21' First Round, and more.

* Jordan never lost as the preseason favorite like Lebron in 11', 14', or 21'

* Jordan never lost a series as the favorite like Lebron did in 09' ECF, 10' Semis and 11' Finals

* Jordan never lost with good teams (1 or 2 seed)

* Jordan never lost in the Finals

* Jordan lost the least with an all-star teammate (only the migraine and baseball years), while Lebron lost a ton with either 1 all-star teammate (05', 09', 21') or 2 all-star teammates (11', 14', 17').

* Lebron didn't have statistical carry-jobs in every series like Jordan did because Lebron had teammates lead in scoring for entire playoff runs (11', 20') and a dozen different series - Kyrie led a bunch and nearly matched Lebron's scoring for the 16' run.

* Lebron never defeated maximum defensive attention (never carried scoring load in Finals) and always needed all-time scorers and elite 1st options to nearly match his Finals scoring (never won with secondary producer like Klay, Wiggins, or Pippen).

* Jordan didn't lose any series as 1st option due to him shooting under 40%, while Lebron has 2 (07' and 25' Finals)
1-9

[Back In Shape]

How is it not defense? :oldlol:

I never saw a teammate have to push Jordan into a defensive position

[3ba11]

How is it not defense? :oldlol:

I never saw a teammate have to push Jordan into a defensive position


Very true

Lebron wasn't all-defense in his 30's

So Jordan had to be All-NBA, scoring champ and top 5 DPOY, while Lebron just had to be All-NBA with nothing else - just plain vanilla All-NBA player

Jordan burden of dominance was far greater

[FilmyCogTurner]

It's not. We don't get to create new tenets whenever it suits an argument. That's silly.

How am I creating anything new when this was the basis for argument in the first place?

You can search up my first post in this thread and my point remains the same. I think you have this conclusion because you do not see the game with any type of depth. Very binary and its sad.

[kawhileonard2]

Here's the standards that we hold Jordan and all players to:


* Jordan never wet the bed in any series like Lebron in the 07' Finals, 08' Semis, 11' Finals, or 21' First Round (or the 10' Semis where Lebron averaged 21 on 34% to lose 2-1 lead as the favorite).

* Jordan was the best player in every series, while Lebron was outplayed in the 07' Finals, 08' Semis, 10' Semis, 11' Finals, 20' WCF (by a teammate), 21' First Round, and more.

* Jordan never lost as the preseason favorite like Lebron in 11', 14', or 21'

* Jordan never lost a series as the favorite like Lebron did in 09' ECF, 10' Semis and 11' Finals

* Jordan never lost with good teams (1 or 2 seed)

* Jordan never lost in the Finals

* Jordan lost the least with an all-star teammate (only the migraine and baseball years), while Lebron lost a ton with either 1 all-star teammate (05', 09', 21') or 2 all-star teammates (11', 14', 17').

* Lebron didn't have statistical carry-jobs in every series like Jordan did because Lebron had teammates lead in scoring for entire playoff runs (11', 20') and a dozen different series - Kyrie led a bunch and nearly matched Lebron's scoring for the 16' run.

* Lebron never defeated maximum defensive attention (never carried scoring load in Finals) and always needed all-time scorers and elite 1st options to nearly match his Finals scoring (never won with secondary producer like Klay, Wiggins, or Pippen).

* Jordan didn't lose any series as 1st option due to him shooting under 40%, while Lebron has 2 (07' and 25' Finals)

Also didn't lose with HCA to Dwight Howard or win bronze medals for America.

[SATAN]

LeBron is clearly the better playmaker. Even Skip Bayless admits this.

[kawhileonard2]

LeBron is clearly the better playmaker. Even Skip Bayless admits this.

This indicates otherwise

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29187444/michael-jordan-better-lebron-james-every-way-says-poll-nba-fans

[theman93]

Yes, because he's held to a standard that only he ever has been, yet at the same time for some here it's laughable to consider him goat. That make any sense to you?
So you admit he should be held to that standard, but when he failed to reach it it's not a black mark? That doesn't make any sense at all.

I mean yeah I do find it laughable. Holding him to a standard of making the play-in is about as low of a bar as you can set and he didn't reach it. If with his all-time longevity he's missing the playoffs and missing the play-in I struggle to put much value in to it. 38 and 39 year old MJ was capable of elevating his team to play-in contention if it existed in the early 00's. MJ also won MVP's and was First Team All-Defense in his 30's, something Lebron hasn't been capable of doing. So I don't find Lebron's longevity as a reason even close to putting him over MJ.



I can accept that, but again I'll look at the circumstance and the injury problems from the season and say OK. It was a disaster of a year. Perhaps given actually floor time to gel maybe they would have. I felt like the team never figured out who they were so I didn't have high expectations mid way through the season and they lower as it went on. I've seen every Lebron team and that one wasn't winning shit lol. And lastly something we always neglect is there is a ton of other factors that make these appearances happen, these finals trips and especially wins. One guy can do so much either way, win or lose. It's the reason rings are a bit lower on my scale than the individual greatness.
Well maybe you could explain how 38 year old MJ led the Wizards to a better record than 37 year old Lebron led the 2022 Lakers? All while starting 3 less games and having a worse supporting cast?

[RogueBorg]

So you admit he should be held to that standard, but when he failed to reach it it's not a black mark? That doesn't make any sense at all.

I mean yeah I do find it laughable. Holding him to a standard of making the play-in is about as low of a bar as you can set and he didn't reach it. If with his all-time longevity he's missing the playoffs and missing the play-in I struggle to put much value in to it. 38 and 39 year old MJ was capable of elevating his team to play-in contention if it existed in the early 00's. MJ also won MVP's and was First Team All-Defense in his 30's, something Lebron hasn't been capable of doing. So I don't find Lebron's longevity as a reason even close to putting him over MJ.



Well maybe you could explain how 38 year old MJ led the Wizards to a better record than 37 year old Lebron led the 2022 Lakers? All while starting 3 less games and having a worse supporting cast?

In the end, Lebron failed to make the play-in/playoffs with 4 Hall of Fame teammates and a Lakers team that had 5 players including himself that will be on the NBA's 100th Anniversary team.

That was the single biggest failure in NBA history.

[FilmyCogTurner]

I know for all this talk of Bron having such a high basketball IQ he is certainly terrible at organizing a team offense. In the end it's always his teammates fault which I find hilarious.

[TheMan]

Nutin' but facts being spit by the four previous posters...
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/8b/8d/ec/8b8decdd935ad1049e0e125b51d8b13d.gif

[bison]

This indicates otherwise

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29187444/michael-jordan-better-lebron-james-every-way-says-poll-nba-fans

This is just brutal.

https://i.ibb.co/nc05PJc/2-EF098-EB-23-BD-4-A47-82-A2-E26-BFD14924-A.jpg

[3ba11]

I know for all this talk of Bron having such a high basketball IQ he is certainly terrible at organizing a team offense. In the end it's always his teammates fault which I find hilarious.


That's because Lebron's simpleton skillset of drive-and-kick uses his teammates as bailout options - they're tasked with "closing" the possession and games because Lebron is just a ball-dominator - a custodian of the basketball until the closer becomes open.

Otoh, off-ball experts like Curry or MJ do it the opposite.. Any bum can bring the ball up and be the custodian, so they let a role players like Paxson, Draymond and Harper play the "point" position, while they play off-ball and decide when to start "closing" the affair.. This approach puts the ball in teammates' hands, which develops young players and has sufficient chemistry to win organically.

[FilmyCogTurner]

When you think about it Lebrons career is such a waste and could have been so much better. With his skill set and physical advantages I always thought he would more play like how Giannis plays now. Not quite as bully ball but somewhere in the middle while still using the mid range game and passing ability. But I guess it's hard to play with that type of physicality when your brain is hardwired to flop.

And I agree 3ball, I use that strategy when playing pickup and someone on the team stinks. I let them bring the ball up so we don't waste the possession with that persons lame ass shot attempt. Its a way of keeping them included, that or we freeze them out.

[TheMan]

This is just brutal.

https://i.ibb.co/nc05PJc/2-EF098-EB-23-BD-4-A47-82-A2-E26-BFD14924-A.jpg

Damn...and LeBron stans think his last season's epic failure is closing the gap between GOAT MJ and LeBron :roll:

[3ba11]

Look at Jordan's playoff series from 85-93' - every series is 35/6/9 or 34/7/7 or some crazy shit like that - every series - he averaged 34/7/7 for the 85-93' Playoffs - that's more assists than Lebron for the first 9 years of their playoff career until Curry's pace and space era made offense easier for everyone. This narrative that he couldn't pass is completely fabricated - he literally passed better than Lebron for the majority of their playoff career without the high turnovers.. If he had decided to play the point guard role (ball-dominator), he would easily average 10 apg.. But ball-dominance doesn't win as much as ball movement, so he didn't opt to play that way aside from the 25-game stint at PG in 89' (30/9/11)

[light]

Playmaking, court vision, play recognition, size, strength, IQ, defensive versatility, offensive versatility, three point shooting - the gap between LeBron and MJ is actually enormous, just as Daryl Morey said.

[Baller789]

Playmaking, court vision, play recognition, size, strength, IQ, defensive versatility, offensive versatility, three point shooting - the gap between LeBron and MJ is actually enormous, just as Daryl Morey said.

Love how you embellish court vision, play recognition and playmaking as seperate attributes :lol

[Soundwave]

I don't agree that playmaking is the biggest gap between the two.

The biggest gap between Jordan and LeBron is Jordan's mental mastery of the game. He's mentally tougher than LeBron and understands how to impact the flow of the game and keep his teams treading water until they get a chance to take a lead.

LeBron is OK at this but he's not on Jordan's level, and frankly I don't think anyone is. Jordan mastered the game on a physical level earlier in his career, but also complete mental domination over the game.

When things start to go bad or south for LeBron's teams he generally just watches on as things completely collapse around him. Jordan was better at having control over a game. If a team was getting on a big run, he could create a couple of baskets, maybe not even the flashiest shit all the time, just 2 points here, 4 points there ... but that 2/4 points stems the tide.

Jordan's ability to create a basket or put points on the board when there's nothing going for his team or even when he's not having a good game to that point is far superior to LeBron's and that is something that there isn't really I don't think a stat for but it's central to winning especially in the playoffs.

[3ba11]

.
Playoff Clutch-time stats (last 5 within 5)

06-18' Lebron (https://stathead.com/basketball/shot_finder.cgi?request=1&match=play&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&is_playoffs=Y&q4=Y&q5=Y&time_remain_minutes=5&time_remain_seconds=0&time_remain_comp=le&margin_min=-5&margin_max=5&player_id=jamesle01&order_by=date_game)...... 134-323.. 41.4%.. 3.0 fga per gm
97' & 98' Jordan (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=-1&Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Playoffs&PerMode=Totals)...... 42-89.. 47.2%.. 3.6 fga per gm


Jordan was also 50% on game-winners or go-ahead within last 24 seconds (9-18), while everyone else gets scared in the clutch (bad efficiency)

Btw, KD and Kobe have identical clutch stats to Lebron's shown above (40% and 3 fga per game)

[TheGoatest]

Imagine being a "GOAT", yet not being top 4 on your own team in not one, but two of the main statistical categories in a finals series:

https://images4.imagebam.com/4b/ea/48/MEC0L0R_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/cc/3d/75/MEC0L1T_o.png

Ho-lee shyt! :roll:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DazzlingPeriodicGnatcatcher-size_restricted.gif

[SATAN]

When things start to go bad or south for LeBron's teams he generally just watches on as things completely collapse around him. Jordan was better at having control over a game. If a team was getting on a big run, he could create a couple of baskets, maybe not even the flashiest shit all the time, just 2 points here, 4 points there ... but that 2/4 points stems the tide.


I don't know about this. Apart from the coasting to prolong his career... Like, I have seen LeBron not bother in unwinnable situations before, or rather do "enough" before realizing he's out there wasting his energy but it's a bold statement when you think about some of the teams and bonehead players he has taken to the finals in the past.

They have different approaches and I think people are picking and choosing what they want to believe, as if Mike couldn't lose or never had something like a game where he refused to keep shooting, which actually happened.

[SATAN]

And LeBron is the better floor general. MJ was a good passer but primarily a shooting guard anyway. And there's more to it than just assist numbers.

[sdot_thadon]

So you admit he should be held to that standard, but when he failed to reach it it's not a black mark? That doesn't make any sense at all.
Well I mentioned in another post that I'm never hunting for black marks because you can make pretty great cases without using them imo. And I never said he should be held to any standard this late in his career. I simply stated he IS held to this standard and I've never seen it before. How could you bristle at a goat debate when you're literally still expecting mvp level play and chips from a guy in year 19? Let it sink in that the average nba career is like 5 or 6 years lol, and in year 19! we still expect Lebron to walk on water so we can call it a puddle. :coleman:



I mean yeah I do find it laughable. Holding him to a standard of making the play-in is about as low of a bar as you can set and he didn't reach it. If with his all-time longevity he's missing the playoffs and missing the play-in I struggle to put much value in to it. 38 and 39 year old MJ was capable of elevating his team to play-in contention if it existed in the early 00's. MJ also won MVP's and was First Team All-Defense in his 30's, something Lebron hasn't been capable of doing. So I don't find Lebron's longevity as a reason even close to putting him over MJ.
I cant really go back and forth with you any more than the facts on the past season. The team had tons of injuries, not to mention Lebron playing only 56 and AD playing 40 some guys who were expected to be key rarely saw the floor due to this, but if you want to act like the season was something it wasnt so it can be a "black mark" have at it. Mj definitely did that and that's a strong point in his case no doubt. Lebron peaked pretty high as a perimeter defender, it just didn't last too long. So I guess you could say Mjs defense had more longevity ironically.


Well maybe you could explain how 38 year old MJ led the Wizards to a better record than 37 year old Lebron led the 2022 Lakers? All while starting 3 less games and having a worse supporting cast?Sure can Mj missed the playoffs in what's been said to be the absolute worst east ever. There was one 50 win team in the whole conference. But we treat that as extra credit, it doesn't count right? So with your own logic, we're not supposed to expect the goat to make the playoffs in the worst version of the east maybe ever?

[theman93]

Well I mentioned in another post that I'm never hunting for black marks because you can make pretty great cases without using them imo. And I never said he should be held to any standard this late in his career. I simply stated he IS held to this standard and I've never seen it before. How could you bristle at a goat debate when you're literally still expecting mvp level play and chips from a guy in year 19? Let it sink in that the average nba career is like 5 or 6 years lol, and in year 19! we still expect Lebron to walk on water so we can call it a puddle. :coleman:
Buddy, you just said he's held to a standard only he has ever been held to. You and I both agree he's held to that standard because of his all-time longevity. If he didn't have his all-time longevity then he wouldn't have that standard and therefore it wouldn't be a failure. But he does. You don't get it both ways lol.

Idc about the "average" career when we're talking about the all-time greats. That's literally irrelevant.


I cant really go back and forth with you any more than the facts on the past season. The team had tons of injuries, not to mention Lebron playing only 56 and AD playing 40 some guys who were expected to be key rarely saw the floor due to this, but if you want to act like the season was something it wasnt so it can be a "black mark" have at it. Mj definitely did that and that's a strong point in his case no doubt. Lebron peaked pretty high as a perimeter defender, it just didn't last too long. So I guess you could say Mjs defense had more longevity ironically.
How am I acting like the season was something that it wasn't? Is it wrong to expect him to make the play-in over a talentless 34 win Spurs team that traded away Derrick White in the middle of the season? Why is the bar so low if you admit Lebron is still at the level he's at?

Not only did MJ have greater longevity as an elite defender, he also had greater longevity as an MVP. He's the 2nd oldest player to win an MVP in league history. So again, longevity isn't even close to a reason for having Lebron top MJ.


Sure can Mj missed the playoffs in what's been said to be the absolute worst east ever. There was one 50 win team in the whole conference. But we treat that as extra credit, it doesn't count right? So with your own logic, we're not supposed to expect the goat to make the playoffs in the worst version of the east maybe ever?
You didn't address the question. I didn't even mention the playoffs. I'm talking about which player led his team to the better record.

38 year old MJ is supposed to be worse than 37 year old Lebron. Yet, he led the Wizards to 4 more wins, started 3 less games, and had a worse supporting cast who weren't exactly healthy themselves either. Why should we value Lebron's longevity so much over MJ when this is the case? On top of MJ having the greater longevity as a defender and MVP?

[sdot_thadon]

Buddy, you just said he's held to a standard only he has ever been held to. You and I both agree he's held to that standard because of his all-time longevity. If he didn't have his all-time longevity then he wouldn't have that standard and therefore it wouldn't be a failure. But he does. You don't get it both ways lol.
I don't necessarily agree that he's held to this standard due to his longevity either, this has been an on going theme throughout his career. And it's insane when you realize the standard he's held to doesn't include any sort of context lol.


How am I acting like the season was something that it wasn't? Is it wrong to expect him to make the play-in over a talentless 34 win Spurs team that traded away Derrick White in the middle of the season? Why is the bar so low if you admit Lebron is still at the level he's at? I'd agree if he played enough games, I'm sure those 20 something odd games he missed would have made a difference. But since this didn't occur, I disagree.


Not only did MJ have greater longevity as an elite defender, he also had greater longevity as an MVP. He's the 2nd oldest player to win an MVP in league history. So again, longevity isn't even close to a reason for having Lebron top MJ.
See what I mean, you're attempting to disregard something that is a once ever type thing. Mj did great things, but Lebron's longevity at this point is lapping the field.



You didn't address the question. I didn't even mention the playoffs. I'm talking about which player led his team to the better record.

38 year old MJ is supposed to be worse than 37 year old Lebron. Yet, he led the Wizards to 4 more wins, started 3 less games, and had a worse supporting cast who weren't exactly healthy themselves either. Why should we value Lebron's longevity so much over MJ when this is the case? On top of MJ having the greater longevity as a defender and MVP?
Well if only one team in the east was able to scrape 50 wins together there were a metric ton of L's to go around I'd imagine. And when you're capping about 4 wins amongst 2 losing seasons? Lol. And no doubt 38 year old Mj isnt in the same tier as 37 year old Lebron, that's a fact. But I get your end all, be all point: why should we value Lebron's longevity if it helps his case over Mj? Right.

[theman93]

I don't necessarily agree that he's held to this standard due to his longevity either, this has been an on going theme throughout his career. And it's insane when you realize the standard he's held to doesn't include any sort of context lol.
Ok then why is year 19 Lebron still expected to atleast make the play-in?


I'd agree if he played enough games, I'm sure those 20 something odd games he missed would have made a difference. But since this didn't occur, I disagree.
How many more games did still MVP caliber Lebron need to play in to beat out a terrible 34 win Spurs team? In the 56 games he played in he only needed to win 27 games due to his team winning 8 without him. This is somehow an unrealistic expectation for him? To not even need to win half the games he was active in? Lmao c'mon man. This is what I mean when I say if the bar is this low his longevity starts to lose it's weight.


See what I mean, you're attempting to disregard something that is a once ever type thing. Mj did great things, but Lebron's longevity at this point is lapping the field.
No I'm not. I've already stated Lebron has the greatest longevity the league has ever seen. My point is that his longevity is not a reason to place him over Jordan when Jordan was the better defender for longer and MVP-worthy for longer.



Well if only one team in the east was able to scrape 50 wins together there were a metric ton of L's to go around I'd imagine. And when you're capping about 4 wins amongst 2 losing seasons? Lol. And no doubt 38 year old Mj isnt in the same tier as 37 year old Lebron, that's a fact. But I get your end all, be all point: why should we value Lebron's longevity if it helps his case over Mj? Right.
The winning % of Eastern Conference teams in 2002 was 0.482 whereas the winning % of Western Conference teams in 2022 was 0.499. That's a whole whopping 1.4 more games won per team in the West in 2022 compared to the East in 2002. And that's your reason why MJ at 38, who was worse than Lebron at 37, was able to win more games even though he had less starts and an even worse supporting cast?

You're just getting emotional it seems like when I'm just giving you facts. I have no problem valuing Lebron's longevity. But does his longevity hold enough value to put him over MJ when MJ was the better defender longer and MVP-worthy for longer? Not a chance lol. Especially when it's clear broken down MJ brought more value to his team at 38 than still MVP caliber Lebron brought value to his at 37.

[Overdrive]

Imagine being a "GOAT", yet not being top 4 on your own team in not one, but two of the main statistical categories in a finals series:

https://images4.imagebam.com/4b/ea/48/MEC0L0R_o.png

https://images4.imagebam.com/cc/3d/75/MEC0L1T_o.png

Ho-lee shyt! :roll:

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DazzlingPeriodicGnatcatcher-size_restricted.gif

If Lebron had '98 Jordan's stats in the '11 Finals they sweep the Mavs.

[theman93]

@sdot_thadon here's another fact for you to chew on regarding the longevity debate:

When 34 year old Lebron joined the Lakers in 2019 he took them from 35 to 37 wins. When 38 year old MJ joined the Wizards in 2002 he took them from 19 to 37 wins with an even worse roster.

[8Ball]

Today we learn Jordan stans try to convince the world Jordan was a better playmaker.


They fail.

[8Ball]

This is just brutal.

https://i.ibb.co/nc05PJc/2-EF098-EB-23-BD-4-A47-82-A2-E26-BFD14924-A.jpg

Was taken May 2020 prior to Bron winning championship and becoming the GOAT in 2020.


Jordan stans fail history, again.

[AirBonner]

Was taken May 2020 prior to Bron winning championship and becoming the GOAT in 2020.


Jordan stans fail history, again.
The GOAT happened in 2016 the GAP happened in 2020

[dankok8]

Lebron is a better passer as in better court vision and more willing passer but playmaking is much closer. MJ drew so many double and even triple teams that he could make simple passes to wide open guys. From 1989-1991 MJ was an absolute playmaking machine. That's how he averaged 8+ assists at times without making even so many amazing passes because playmaking can also result from drawing a lot of defensive attention.

[SATAN]

@sdot_thadon here's another fact for you to chew on regarding the longevity debate:

When 34 year old Lebron joined the Lakers in 2019 he took them from 35 to 37 wins. When 38 year old MJ joined the Wizards in 2002 he took them from 19 to 37 wins with an even worse roster.

You either completely ignore context, are content being a liar or don't watch basketball.

[sdot_thadon]

Ok then why is year 19 Lebron still expected to atleast make the play-in? Because hes one of the best players to ever live apparently and our faith in him is clearly so great that he should be expected to overcome any situation. At least thats how things appear....BUT.....Why is a year 19 player expected to do anything is the question? When has this ever been a thing? Should tell you everything you need to know.



How many more games did still MVP caliber Lebron need to play in to beat out a terrible 34 win Spurs team? In the 56 games he played in he only needed to win 27 games due to his team winning 8 without him. This is somehow an unrealistic expectation for him? To not even need to win half the games he was active in? Lmao c'mon man. This is what I mean when I say if the bar is this low his longevity starts to lose it's weight.
I dunno but missing huge chunks of seasons as the main guy kinda wrecks plans dontcha think? I mean there's also the issue of a near entire roster turnover from the previous season. No floor time = no chemistry.



No I'm not. I've already stated Lebron has the greatest longevity the league has ever seen. My point is that his longevity is not a reason to place him over Jordan when Jordan was the better defender for longer and MVP-worthy for longer.
Longevity is an aspect of basketball greatness. All of them should be considered, it's up to the viewer to determine which categories hold weight. I'm kinda balanced, yeah somethings matter more or less but when it comes to longevity? Being of elite quality for far longer than anyone else should always be a significant point. And again it's not his only point of contention, it's just one that's not even close.



The winning % of Eastern Conference teams in 2002 was 0.482 whereas the winning % of Western Conference teams in 2022 was 0.499. That's a whole whopping 1.4 more games won per team in the West in 2022 compared to the East in 2002. And that's your reason why MJ at 38, who was worse than Lebron at 37, was able to win more games even though he had less starts and an even worse supporting cast? Not really, It's pretty dicey trying to compare across seasons that are 20 years apart. I just know lebron missed a ton of games and the playoffs as a result. I know Mj missed games in 02 and missed them as a result. He played every game in 03 and missed them still. That's what I do know.



You're just getting emotional it seems like when I'm just giving you facts. I have no problem valuing Lebron's longevity. But does his longevity hold enough value to put him over MJ when MJ was the better defender longer and MVP-worthy for longer? Not a chance lol. Especially when it's clear broken down MJ brought more value to his team at 38 than still MVP caliber Lebron brought value to his at 37.
Not at all my man just on an Ish kick recently and have been posting. I actually enjoy the back and forth when actual thought is put into it and whether or not we agree doesn't affect that. I just like talking hoops. It doesn't hold enough value to put him over Mj as a standalone piece, that's not how this works. It is a good over the top type point in a close debate tho. And I'm not necessarily saying he's the goat. I have him, Mj and Kareem in a tier together and I can see a great argument where you consider either of the 3 goat depending on the angle of the debate. Lebron and Mj have so many categories they are neck and neck in imo. There's only really a few things that go clearly one way or the other to me.

[theman93]

You either completely ignore context, are content being a liar or don't watch basketball.

LOL. No. MJ started less games than Lebron, MJ was older and worse than Lebron, the Wizards were a less talented team than the '19 Lakers, and were just as injured.

[theman93]

Because hes one of the best players to ever live apparently and our faith in him is clearly so great that he should be expected to overcome any situation. At least thats how things appear....BUT.....Why is a year 19 player expected to do anything is the question? When has this ever been a thing? Should tell you everything you need to know.
You're changing the parameters of the discussion. We're not debating a "player". We're debating Lebron. The question should read: "Why is a year 19 Lebron expected to do anything?" And the answer to that question is: Because he is still playing at a near MVP level and therefore we should still expect him to atleast make the play-in tournament. That shouldn't be too much to ask if we're being honest. Even given the circumstances that surrounded his team (which he in large part is responsible for btw).


I dunno but missing huge chunks of seasons as the main guy kinda wrecks plans dontcha think? I mean there's also the issue of a near entire roster turnover from the previous season. No floor time = no chemistry.
It shouldn't train wreck it hard enough to not beat out the Spurs for a spot in the play-in. That team was horrible. We're talking lowest of low standards here.


Longevity is an aspect of basketball greatness. All of them should be considered, it's up to the viewer to determine which categories hold weight. I'm kinda balanced, yeah somethings matter more or less but when it comes to longevity? Being of elite quality for far longer than anyone else should always be a significant point. And again it's not his only point of contention, it's just one that's not even close.
That's fair. But if he hasn't won any MVP's or made an All-Defensive team in his 30's perhaps it's not as significant as you're making it out to be.


Not really, It's pretty dicey trying to compare across seasons that are 20 years apart. I just know lebron missed a ton of games and the playoffs as a result. I know Mj missed games in 02 and missed them as a result. He played every game in 03 and missed them still. That's what I do know.
Well you were fine comparing it when you thought there was a ton of more L's to go around to the teams in the East in '02 than the teams in the West in '22 lol. But that's not the case at all. Every excuse or reason Lebron had in 2022, Jordan had the same exact excuse or reason in 2002 but won more games with a worse roster. And Jordan sure as hell didn't have a top 75 player for half the season like Lebron did with AD.


Not at all my man just on an Ish kick recently and have been posting. I actually enjoy the back and forth when actual thought is put into it and whether or not we agree doesn't affect that. I just like talking hoops. It doesn't hold enough value to put him over Mj as a standalone piece, that's not how this works. It is a good over the top type point in a close debate tho. And I'm not necessarily saying he's the goat. I have him, Mj and Kareem in a tier together and I can see a great argument where you consider either of the 3 goat depending on the angle of the debate. Lebron and Mj have so many categories they are neck and neck in imo. There's only really a few things that go clearly one way or the other to me.
I agree it's not a standalone piece, but it is used to put him over the top among the folks who stan Lebron. However I don't even see where it gets close enough in the first place to use longevity as the trump card. Not only does Jordan have the better regular and postseason metrics, but in accolades alone in 4 less seasons MJ has...

2 more rings
2 more FMVP's
1 more MVP
1 more DPOY
3 more All-Defensive Teams
9 more scoring titles
3 more steal titles

He's just flat out better individually (higher PER, WS/48 and more MVP's in less seasons points to this) and accomplished more with his team in less time.

[GrayGoat]

The GOAT happened in 2016 the GAP happened in 2020

Bingo. That’s a wrap

[Soundwave]

Bingo. That’s a wrap

Sure.

In ISH Bubble World which consists of like 40 posters probably max, 70% of whom have never seen basketball game prior to 2007 and 80% herein have never even played basketball at even a high school level most likely.

[Baller789]

Was taken May 2020 prior to Bron winning championship and becoming the GOAT in 2020.


Jordan stans fail history, again.


The GOAT happened in 2016 the GAP happened in 2020

You know its bad when Bronies contradict each other.

[RogueBorg]

There is a lot more than just playmaking but that is the massive skill gap between the LeBron and Jordan and why I consider Bron the better player.


LeBron is just consistently a higher IQ player.

Not knowing how many timeouts you have at the end of a game 1 Finals game is the sign of a low IQ player :roll:

[RogueBorg]

Playmaking, court vision, play recognition, size, strength, IQ, defensive versatility, offensive versatility, three point shooting - the gap between LeBron and MJ is actually enormous, just as Daryl Morey said.

Passing to the likes of a Udonis Haslem to take the last shot is not great playmaking. Lebron folds like a house of cards at the end of games. He always has.

[RogueBorg]

@sdot_thadon here's another fact for you to chew on regarding the longevity debate:

When 34 year old Lebron joined the Lakers in 2019 he took them from 35 to 37 wins. When 38 year old MJ joined the Wizards in 2002 he took them from 19 to 37 wins with an even worse roster.

And this past year Lebron couldn't lead a team with 5 Hall of Famers to a play-in tournament...the single easiest setup in the leagues 75-year history for teams to make the playoffs and they couldn't even do it.

[RogueBorg]

Today we learn Jordan stans try to convince the world Jordan was a better playmaker.


They fail.

He can't be that good of a playmaker if he can't win a single MVP since turning 30 :roll::roll::roll:

[8Ball]

LeBron was pointguard for the Lakers in 2020 and averaged 10 assists per game that season.


Jordan simply wasn't capable of this.

[GrayGoat]

LeBron was pointguard for the Lakers in 2020 and averaged 10 assists per game that season.


Jordan simply wasn't capable of this.

But MJ had an impressive two week stretch where he visited the scorers table on every other play and to me that’s more important than putting up those stats for an entire career :rolleyes::rolleyes:

[TheGoatest]

But MJ had an impressive two week stretch where he visited the scorers table on every other play and to me that’s more important than putting up those stats for an entire career :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Yet despite that blatant triple-double paddage, jordon has:

2 career triple-doubles in 179 career playoff games
0 career triple-doubles in 35 finals games

:oldlol:

Reminder: LeBron has 3 championship-game clinching triple-double games. :roll:

[3ba11]

LeBron was pointguard for the Lakers in 2020 and averaged 10 assists per game that season.


Jordan simply wasn't capable of this.


.
Jordan was vastly superior to Lebron at point GOD:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uwJD3gt3zDs&t=02m37s


Despite not playing point guard much, Jordan averaged more assists than Lebron for the first 9 years of their playoff careers (85-93' vs 06-14'), before Curry's pace and space era made offense easier for everyone.

So Jordan was superior at scoring and passing..

[8Ball]

The Last Dance gives us testimony from Jordan / Pippen / PJ that the role of facilitating for the team was taken out of Jordan's hands so that he could be a scorer.

[3ba11]

The Last Dance gives us testimony from Jordan / Pippen / PJ that the role of facilitating for the team was taken out of Jordan's hands so that he could be a scorer.


Nope

That isn't what it said and Jordan averaged more assist than Pippen for their Finals career, playoff career and regular season career

Btw, the thread title says that the biggest gap is passing, yet Jordan averaged more assists than Lebron

[8Ball]

Nope

That isn't what it said and Jordan averaged more assist than Pippen for their Finals career, playoff career and regular season career

Btw, the thread title says that the biggest gap is passing, yet Jordan averaged more assists than Lebron

Phil Jackson said Pippen was the main playermaker in PJ's autobiography. The record is written and spoken.

[Round Mound]

Anyone who watched the games knows Pippen was a better passer and playmaker for others it came natural to him. Jordan developed that, it wasn't natural for him but he worked into a very good passer aswell. Averaging more assits doesn't make a better passer if so then Lebron is a better rebounder than MJ which is also false. MJ was a better rebounder and much better relative to position, size, strength, weight and jumping ability. Lebron is a good rebounder not great. MJ was the better mid range and post player while both where pretty much equal in terms of attacking the basket (MJ had better handles).

[kawhileonard2]

The biggest gap is that one couldn't win bronze medals while the other couldn't. Also one could turn a franchise that never won into a dynasty while the other could only get 1 title in 11 years for the franchise that drafted them and needed a suspension to win despite being the favorites from the beginning of the season.

[3ba11]

Anyone who watched the games knows Pippen was a better passer and playmaker for others it came natural to him. Jordan developed that, it wasn't natural for him but he worked into a very good passer aswell. Averaging more assits doesn't make a better passer if so then Lebron is a better rebounder than MJ which is also false. MJ was a better rebounder and much better relative to position, size, strength, weight and jumping ability. Lebron is a good rebounder not great. MJ was the better mid range and post player while both where pretty much equal in terms of attacking the basket (MJ had better handles).


Pippen averaged 3 assists as a rookie and sophomore, so Pippen was the guy that grew into a passing role, while Jordan averaged 6-9 apg right away as a rookie in the regular season and Playoffs

So you guys just love lying - literally lying about what happened

Jordan had no help in the 80's, so he had to shoot a lot, but Pippen and Grant still grew by leaps and bounds because Jordan played off-ball with great assist numbers, efficiency and low turnovers..

Otoh, Lebron is the guy with poor fundamentals, ball-domination and high turnovers, which reduces teammates like Hughes, Jamison, Ingram, Westbrook, Love, Bosh, Clarkson, Rose and many more

So you guys literally have it backwards - Jordan employed a fundamentally-sound brand of ball that grew teammates, while Lebron employs a garbage brand that destroys teammates.. So Jordan averaging more assists than Lebron is meaningful - he had low turnovers and was fundamentally-sound, which GREW teammates, while Lebron is the opposite - an excessive ball-dominator with poor fundamentals and high turnovers, which reduces teammates.

Furthermore, Pippen couldn't break guys down off-the-dribble and wasn't capable of elite APG...if they bulls needed elite APG, Jordan was the only option.. This ides that Pippen was a better passer is objectively false - there's literally zero evidence of that, while the evidence points to Jordan in a big way

[3ba11]

Pippen averaged 3 assists as a rookie and sophomore, so Pippen was the guy that grew into a passing role, while Jordan averaged 6-9 apg right away as a rookie in the regular season and Playoffs

So you guys just love lying - literally lying about what happened

Jordan had no help in the 80's, so he had to shoot a lot, but Pippen and Grant still grew by leaps and bounds because Jordan played off-ball with great assist numbers, efficiency and low turnovers..

Otoh, Lebron is the guy with poor fundamentals, ball-domination and high turnovers, which reduces teammates like Hughes, Jamison, Ingram, Westbrook, Love, Bosh, Clarkson, Rose and many more

So you guys literally have it backwards - Jordan employed a fundamentally-sound brand of ball that grew teammates, while Lebron employs a garbage brand that destroys teammates.. So Jordan averaging more assists than Lebron is meaningful - he had low turnovers and was fundamentally-sound, which GREW teammates, while Lebron is the opposite - an excessive ball-dominator with poor fundamentals and high turnovers, which reduces teammates.

Furthermore, Pippen couldn't break guys down off-the-dribble and wasn't capable of elite APG...if they bulls needed elite APG, Jordan was the only option.. This ides that Pippen was a better passer is objectively false - there's literally zero evidence of that, while the evidence points to Jordan in a big way


https://i.makeagif.com/media/10-26-2018/7T5HZe.gif

[TheGoatest]

Phil Jackson said Pippen was the main playermaker in PJ's autobiography. The record is written and spoken.

Damn, this quote is especially ethering towards jordon and his career one-dimensionalism considering that Phil Jackson hated The Great Scott Pippen.

[8Ball]

Damn, this quote is especially ethering towards jordon and his career one-dimensionalism considering that Phil Jackson hated The Great Scott Pippen.

Correct.

PJ wrote it in that making Jordan be the primary scorer and playmaker was too taxing and he designed it for primary playmaking duties to be handed off to someone else.


LeBron has always been the best when he was team's leading scorer AND primary playmaker.

Bron able to do more on the court, which is main reason I consider him GOAT over Jordan.

[TheMan]

LeBron was pointguard for the Lakers in 2020 and averaged 10 assists per game that season.


Jordan simply wasn't capable of this.

MJ won 6 chips in 13 years with the organization that drafted him...LeBron won 1 in 11 years.

James was simply unable to win multiple chips without jumping from team to team recruiting All NBAers.

[AirBonner]

MJ won 6 chips in 13 years with the organization that drafted him...LeBron won 1 in 11 years.

James was simply unable to win multiple chips without jumping from team to team recruiting All NBAers.
MJ was shackled to Pippen for his success. No Pip? No chip.

[TheMan]

MJ was shackled to Pippen for his success. No Pip? No chip.

MJ and Pip were the core of 6 chips, two threepeats. MJ being the alpha dog of course. They won with HoGrant being third wheel, then DRodman for the second threepeat. MJ accomplished more than James despite only playing with one All Star sidekick throughout, and that sidekick missed half of their last season together and was hobbled for the ECFs and Finals, yet MJ carried them to their 6th ring...

Bron on the other hand, has played with multiple All Stars, former MVPs, FMVPs and a top 10 GOAT (Shaq), yet he has less to show for???

What gives? What excuse can you possibly come up with to explain why Bran has played with many more HOFers and many more years but has less than MJ to show for?

6/15 >>> 4/19

:confusedshrug:

[TheMan]

MJ and Pip were the core of 6 chips, two threepeats. MJ being the alpha dog of course. They won with HoGrant being third wheel, then DRodman for the second threepeat. MJ accomplished more than James despite only playing with one All Star sidekick throughout, and that sidekick missed half of their last season together and was hobbled for the ECFs and Finals, yet MJ carried them to their 6th ring...

Bron on the other hand, has played with multiple All Stars, former MVPs, FMVPs and a top 10 GOAT (Shaq), yet he has less to show for???

What gives? What excuse can you possibly come up with to explain why Bran has played with many more HOFers and many more years but has less than MJ to show for?

6/15 >>> 4/19

:confusedshrug:

Anyone :confusedshrug:

[3ba11]

.
APG for the first 9 years of Playoff career (before pace-and-space era)



85-93' JORDAN'...... 6.6
06-14' LEBRON....... 6.4


Jordan was fundamentally-sound with good teammate fits that grew teammates, while guys like Lebron, Westbrook and Iverson are excessive ball-dominators with high turnovers and poor fundamentals, which reduces teammates.

So the argument that "higher assists don't matter because Westbrook has high assists" is garbage because Jordan isn't Westbrook - he's the opposite (low turnovers, high efficiency and smart)

[TheGoatest]

MJ was shackled to Pippen for his success. No Pip? No chip.

Not only no chip, but no .500 season. Out of 5 seasons. :facepalm

[SATAN]

Anyone who says Michael was a better "play maker" than LeBron doesn't know the game of basketball. It's completely ridiculous and their opinions should be automatically written off as false.

Not even a knock to MJ btw.

[8Ball]

MJ won 6 chips in 13 years with the organization that drafted him...LeBron won 1 in 11 years.

James was simply unable to win multiple chips without jumping from team to team recruiting All NBAers.

LeBron is a greater playmaker than Jordan.

Thread topic.

[SATAN]

LeBron is a greater playmaker than Jordan.

Thread topic.

Just one of the many things he's better at. But yes, please stay on topic, TheMan. You're all over the show.

[3ba11]

.
APG for the first 9 years of Playoff career (before pace-and-space era)



85-93' JORDAN'...... 6.6
06-14' LEBRON....... 6.4


Jordan was fundamentally-sound with good teammate fits that grew teammates, while guys like Lebron, Westbrook and Iverson are excessive ball-dominators with high turnovers and poor fundamentals, which reduces teammates.

So the argument that "higher assists don't matter because Westbrook has high assists" is garbage because Jordan isn't Westbrook - he's the opposite (low turnovers, high efficiency and smart)


Anyone?

[TheGoatest]

LeBron is a greater playmaker than Jordan.

Thread topic.

Although, LeBron being a better playmaker than someone who averaged 2.3 assists over 41.7 minutes in a finals series isn't even in a top 20 list of LeBron's passing/playmaking credentials.

[3ba11]

Although, LeBron being a better playmaker than someone who averaged 2.3 assists over 41.7 minutes in a finals series isn't even in a top 20 list of LeBron's passing/playmaking credentials.


See that's what you don't understand - scoring is still the most important category and sometimes a player can win with just that

Otoh, show me where Lebron won with no scoring and a bunch of assists

Waiting

[TheMan]

See that's what you don't understand - scoring is still the most important category and sometimes a player can win with just that

Otoh, show me where Lebron won with no scoring and a bunch of assists

Waiting

Rat poison.

[TheGoatest]

See that's what you don't understand - scoring is still the most important category and sometimes a player can win with just that


:roll: @ having the audacity of typing this gibberish while the FACT that jordon's highest scoring season ever being sub-.500 and below an all-star-less team led by a rookie Chuck Person forever remains engraved in stone.

[Ryoka Narusawa]

It’s LeBrons steroid usage.

:roll:

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

LeBronÂ’s playmaking is the largest talent/skill gap between the two. Lebron can score and average 30+ for a season
LeBron has three 30+ ppg seasons while Jordan has eight


he has been an elite defender in the past, he's won championships and FMVP's
Jordan won DPOY over Hakeem and Eaton while LeBron couldn't win DPOY over Dwight/Gasol/Tyson/Ibaka


he's won championships and FMVP's
In the Finals LeBron was outscored by Parker/Wade/Bosh/Terry/Dirk/Durant x2 while Jordan was never outscored by a teammate/opponent in the Finals.

LeBron could only win 1 chip for the team he was drafted to while Jordan won 6 for only one organization.

There's a rumor that LeBron played like sh*t in 2011 to prevent Wade from winning finals mvp and I strongly believe AD held back in 2020 Finals to allow LeBron to win finals mvp.

[TheMan]

LeBron has three 30+ ppg seasons while Jordan has eight


Jordan won DPOY over Hakeem and Eaton while LeBron couldn't win DPOY over Dwight/Gasol/Tyson/Ibaka


In the Finals LeBron was outscored by Parker/Wade/Bosh/Terry/Dirk/Durant x2 while Jordan was never outscored by a teammate/opponent in the Finals.

LeBron could only win 1 chip for the team he was drafted to while Jordan won 6 for only one organization.

There's a rumor that LeBron played like sh*t in 2011 to prevent Wade from winning finals mvp and I strongly believe AD held back in 2020 Finals to allow LeBron to win finals mvp.

LeFam on suicide watch after reading these facts.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Lebron is better at everything. Scoring, passing, defense, off ball, on ball, in the post, and more clutch

And I like Jordan...

Hell, wasn't pippen better at everything except scoring? Well, lebrons better at everything

[SATAN]

LeBron has three 30+ ppg seasons while Jordan has eight


Jordan won DPOY over Hakeem and Eaton while LeBron couldn't win DPOY over Dwight/Gasol/Tyson/Ibaka


In the Finals LeBron was outscored by Parker/Wade/Bosh/Terry/Dirk/Durant x2 while Jordan was never outscored by a teammate/opponent in the Finals.

LeBron could only win 1 chip for the team he was drafted to while Jordan won 6 for only one organization.

There's a rumor that LeBron played like sh*t in 2011 to prevent Wade from winning finals mvp and I strongly believe AD held back in 2020 Finals to allow LeBron to win finals mvp.

Desperation :facepalm

[Round Mound]

Lebron was a better playmaker and passer than MJ that's true but Jordan was better at these skills: shooting, mid range, post play, man to man defense and rebounding. As far as finishers, driving to th basket or the open floor they are pretty much equal there. Lebron might have been the more versatile defender in his prime but MJ was the best defensive SG ever.

[SATAN]

Lebron was a better playmaker and passer than MJ that's true but Jordan was better at these skills: shooting, mid range, post play, man to man defense and rebounding. As far as finishers, driving to th basket or the open floor they are pretty much equal there.

Prime LeBron is equally, if not better than MJ in any category apart from free throw shooting (which is basically irrelevant to the GOAT discussion). And he's 100% better in certain categories. Apart from wanting to score more points for himself, Michael Jordan didn't control entire games. He needed a system to work within.

LeBron is the better OVERALL basketball player.

[3ba11]

.
.
As a ball-dominator, MJ was a superior playmaker and passer




https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-21-2021/GjUUon.gif


https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-21-2021/nDBX5i.gif


https://i.makeagif.com/media/8-24-2022/bPfHoS.gif



MJ was also a superior passer without dominating the ball (off-ball):



https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-07-2022/gsKVwn.gif


* 6-11 APG as an off-guard and off-ball player (same as Bird)



Carry on... MJ was the superior passer and far superior scorer

[SATAN]

Michael Jordan spent most of his career not getting into the playoffs. He's so great.

[LAL]

Michael Jordan spent most of his career not getting into the playoffs. He's so great.

What is this fatherless kid talking about again?

LOL at people pushing lebron in any skill and talent conversation :oldlol: Michael Jordan :oldlol: Do people actually watch lebron and think "oh wow what a move!" besides bron stans (even they don't).. his basketball is low level, but his stats are godly because of his stat based game, lebron system, politics, media and his physical gifts. Michael Jordan was better at everything dummies. Thousands of people are, let alone in the NBA.

[TheGoatest]

Lebron was a better playmaker and passer than MJ that's true but Jordan was better at these skills: shooting, mid range, post play, man to man defense and rebounding. As far as finishers, driving to th basket or the open floor they are pretty much equal there. Lebron might have been the more versatile defender in his prime but MJ was the best defensive SG ever.

Dwight Howard was a better passer than Charles Barkley. Prove me wrong.

[Axe]

LeBron has three 30+ ppg seasons while Jordan has eight


Jordan won DPOY over Hakeem and Eaton while LeBron couldn't win DPOY over Dwight/Gasol/Tyson/Ibaka


In the Finals LeBron was outscored by Parker/Wade/Bosh/Terry/Dirk/Durant x2 while Jordan was never outscored by a teammate/opponent in the Finals.

LeBron could only win 1 chip for the team he was drafted to while Jordan won 6 for only one organization.

There's a rumor that LeBron played like sh*t in 2011 to prevent Wade from winning finals mvp and I strongly believe AD held back in 2020 Finals to allow LeBron to win finals mvp.
The bulls actually have gotten better each year the more jordan got the ball out of his hands en route to his teammates.

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

LeBron isn't even all that exciting or inspiring to watch compared to guys like Jordan,Kobe and Bird.His skillset is very basic and limited,his overall game is so predicated on his size and athleticism.

[3ba11]

Lebron's passing never developed a single young player because his rudimentary skills impose SPOT -UP roles that STALL young players, thereby needing READY-MADE STARS to win.

So his skillset clearly lacks the teammate development, fits, and brand of ball to win organically, so he must be a talent-based winner (team-hopper... all-star game strategy).. He never really learned how to win (organic) and only learned how to team-hop.

Ultimately, Lebron's "big man ball-dominance" is the worst KIND of ball-dominance that ties a coach's hands - they're forced to run a "heliocentric" offense that revolves around 1 guy dominating the ball, which invariably has a lottery record on the championship level, regardless of cast.

[8Ball]

Although, LeBron being a better playmaker than someone who averaged 2.3 assists over 41.7 minutes in a finals series isn't even in a top 20 list of LeBron's passing/playmaking credentials.

What kills the Jordan fans is that Bron is a superior playmaker, but unlike John Stockton and Magic, Bron as good of a scorer or even greater.

Better playmaker than Mike and about to be #1 all time scorer. This wasn't supposed to happen. Jordan was supposed to be untouchable.

[8Ball]

LeBron isn't even all that exciting or inspiring to watch compared to guys like Jordan,Kobe and Bird.His skillset is very basic and limited,his overall game is so predicated on his size and athleticism.

Wrong.


Watch the Thinking Basketball youtube analysis of the 3 greatest games ever played in a row, Bron 2016 finals game 5 6 7.

If you like high IQ GOAT play, you side with Bron.

[8Ball]

Prime LeBron is equally, if not better than MJ in any category apart from free throw shooting (which is basically irrelevant to the GOAT discussion). And he's 100% better in certain categories. Apart from wanting to score more points for himself, Michael Jordan didn't control entire games. He needed a system to work within.

LeBron is the better OVERALL basketball player.



Yes.


If you analyze basketball as in each team has 100 possession to work with. LeBron impacts many more of those 100 possessions than Jordan does.

[3ba11]

Wrong.


Watch the Thinking Basketball youtube analysis of the 3 greatest games ever played in a row, Bron 2016 finals game 5 6 7.

If you like high IQ GOAT play, you side with Bron.


At carry -job burdens, Lebron lacks sufficient brand of ball (too ball-dominant) to beat top teams.. That's why he needs equal scoring partners like Kyrie, AD or Wade to nearly match his Finals scoring, and can't win with secondary producers like Wiggins or Pippen that average far less

Ultimately, he lacks sufficient brand of ball, efficiency and jumpshooting skill to defeat maximum defensive attention (carry scoring load in Finals)

GM's can build a team easier with cheap defenders, but this requires a 1st option that can carry the scoring load like Curry or MJ

[OrlandoMagicGuy]

What facet of the game can you point to where LeBron was truly the best at?

Scoring?(Kobe)(Durant)

Passing?(CP3)(Nash)(Rondo)

Defense?(Dwight)(Kawhi)(AD)(Butler)(Giannis)

Handles?(Kyrie)(Steph)(Luka)(CP3)(Nash)

Rebounding?(Dwight)(Drummond)(Giannis)(Vooch)(Cape la)

Slashing?(Wade)(D.Rose)(Westbrook)

Shooting?(Kobe)(Steph)(Durant)(Kyrie)(Dirk)

[beau_boy04]

^This exactly.

The biggest skill gap between the two is hard to nail down since there are so many of them.

Shooting skill - Jordan blows Bronie away.
Free throws - ditto.
Footwork - Jordan by a mile.
Scoring while pressured - Jordan by about 10 miles.
Scoring in the clutch - ditto.
Man to man defense - Jordan again.

Just to name a few.

you forgot to mention.

Leadership - Jordan by a mile
Intimidation factor - Jordan by 10 miles

:cheers: